Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

Today, I've got Robin Hood.

That sounds anachronistic, perhaps.

I don't mean a man in tights
with a longbow on his back.

I mean, the amazing sister of the
amazing Linda Tellington Jones.

Those of you who know about T Touch
the Linda Tellington Jones method of

using touch to ameliorate bond with
gosh reach and Help with any kind of

horse training And people and dogs
and so anyone who doesn't know about

t touch go and type it into google
now t touch It's a wonderful thing.

We've been you know Fans of it and
practicing it on our own horses and each

other and our dogs for over a decade.

And Linda Tunnington Jones, of course,
is a legend within the horse community

and was one of the first people to
bring this idea of healing through

horses into the mainstream, really.

Not as many people know
about her younger sister.

And Robin and Linda have been working
together for many, many, many years.

And A lot of the systemization
behind the T Touch method one could

say has, you know, come thanks to
this wonderful relationship between

the sisters and Robin's input.

So I wanted to, I wanted
to not just talk to Linda.

If you haven't heard our two podcasts
with Linda, one on Live Free, Ride

Free, and one here on Equine Assisted
World, go click on those links now.

But today I want to go a little
deeper into T Touch with Robin.

And look at what are the things that we
as equine practitioners need to know.

What can we benefit from in
terms of how we approach,

touch, interact with our horses?

How our clients do not just with our
horses, but the other social animals

that we have and with each other,
we being social animals as well.

There's a lot that we can
glean from mentors like Robin.

So even though many of us, of course,
hold the well being of the equines we

work with, you know, in the highest
of priorities, because we hold them in

that priority, we need to talk to people
like Robin and learn as much as we can.

So Robin, thanks so much
for coming on the show.

And please tell us who you
are and what is T Touch?

What's it all about?

Robyn Hood: That's always
a 64, 000 question.

You know, what is T Touch?

So, first of all, it's interesting.

Of course, our family name is Hood and
Linda named me actually, I was the second

last to be born and she came home and
said, Oh, you have to name this one Robin.

The funny thing is our
mother's name was Marion.

So we had made Marion

and

Robyn Hood: I have a brother named John.

So we have little John and made Marion.

And when I was a child,
I used to do a lot of.

And I'm a horse showman.

I used to ride two
horses from other people.

And one was called fire tech
and one was called little John.

So here comes Robin Hood
riding for your deck.

So anyway, that was a
good laugh for people.

So I've kind of grown up with that.

And, and, you know, it was a little
tricky when I was younger, but when

I got married, I chose to keep my own
name and I've had the opportunity, you

know, Linda's 14 years older than I am.

And I spent a lot of time when
I was young, before I was on

a horse, before I could walk.

When I could walk, she would, like,
throw me on a horse bareback and,

you know, slap them on the butt so
I'd get cantered into the stable.

My mother was, of course, horrified,
but, you know, it's the way it was.

And then Linda left when I was three.

She moved to California.

That was quite hard for me.

And then I started to go to
work with her when I was nine.

And I got, would go in the summers and
fly to California by myself, which,

you know, back in the day, 1959,

60 was pretty unusual,
especially crossing the border.

And I.

I am, I'm so lucky to have have Linda and
the thing is, I don't want to be Linda.

And I think that's actually
why our relationship works.

I always make this kind of joke
and it's not that, you know, she's

kind of the show horse and I'm the
workforce and that doesn't mean

she doesn't work, but I really like
kind of being behind the scenes and

and supporting what she's doing.

And sometimes.

redirecting her a little bit because
she has a lot of ideas that were at

least 20 years ahead of her time.

And, you know, that's the good
news and the bad news, you

know, like, like everything.

And so, I did a newsletter for, I started
in 83, I think, and I did it till 2017.

Four times a year and about the method
and about Linda's travels, which were, I

mean, incredibly, incredibly interesting.

And so I, I really, I love this work.

I love being able to connect with
people and their animals, because.

If we, if we can't relate
to the people, it's hard to

actually have them help their.

Animals.

And so it's it for me, learning is
constantly like, I believe that we

can always make something better.

There's it's not about something is,
you know, it has to be like this.

I think we need a framework of
what what I've kind of tried

to do is make a baseline.

And then I often say to people
that this work is written in sand

rather than written in stone.

And I think that it allows people
that they learn the basic techniques

and then they can use that then
they can use their intuition or the

feeling and and, and carry on with it.

So that's where I think that's
kind of the role that I play.

that I play with Linda.

Rupert Isaacson: What is T Touch exactly?

Robyn Hood: So, T Touch,
there, there's the question.

So, I, and I, I actually really
prefer in Europe, they call

it more the Tellington method,

and

Robyn Hood: the, because the misnomer
is that it's only about touch.

So, T Touch is basically a, a gentle way
of communicating with animals and with

interacting with animals that is What I
say low stress because every time we do

anything different, there's a certain
amount of stress, but it's low stress and

it's really considering how animals learn.

And that's our interest is, is
in looking at both the learning.

So we have different components.

There's the observation, which you do.

Ideally, you're doing all the
time with your animal, you know,

and what we're looking for is
small things, not big things.

We don't want to wait
until they shout at us.

We'd rather listen to their whispers.

And, and then of course, there's the
body of work known as the Tellington

T Touch, which is a gentle form of
hands on communication with your horse.

And there are various techniques that
we use that are really easy to learn.

And I think that's one of the things
that is, so what's so beautiful about

this work is that you can teach people
it in a pretty short period of time.

We also have the groundwork.

And there's, you know, I remember
years ago, people were starting

to do body work on horses.

It was a, you know, at the time when
we started nearly 50 years ago, it

was considered a little bit odd.

But so what we found is that you
could do body work, but if you didn't

take that into mindful movement.

As in the Feldenkrais method, then
there was a lot that was missed.

And unfortunately, there's, there's
more and more groundwork being done, but

it's some of it actually kind of, takes
away from any body work you might have

done because it puts horses in posture.

It's not functional.

And so we're looking for functional
posture for helping, helping them

have a different way of moving.

And of course, we also have
Some equipment we use like body

wraps to bring more awareness.

We have what we call the joy of riding.

So it's about this whole, you
know, parts of it so you can, we

started, I've had up to 200 horses
here on my property, and we for.

40 years have started
our own horses that way.

Hundreds of horses we've started.

So it's a step by step.

I believe that horse training
should be like watching paint dry.

Shouldn't be exciting.

Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned
something called Feldenkrais.

What's that?

Feldenkrais,

Robyn Hood: Moshe Feldenkrais was an
Israeli physicist who had had a and he

was a he had a physical injury himself,
and he was also a master of martial

arts, and he took what he knew about
martial arts and broke down every bit of

movement in his body, and I still think
that Feldenkrais is one of the best kept

secrets for his intention was to improve
the movement and of dancers and athletes

and their performance, and he ended

Very serious injury, strokes, cerebral
palsy, all sorts of things that, and he,

there is a, he's got a great Facebook
page called the Feldenkrais Method, and

it shows Moshe working with a young man
that had been really not being able to

move very well with a, with his CP, and in
one session made such a difference to the

possibility, and so it's, so check it out.

It's something that I
think is really neat.

useful for anyone, whether you have any,
you know, disabilities or not, because

the philosophy of it is so similar.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
an interesting thing.

I've, I've experienced
a bit of Feldenkrais.

And I always love it when, aI tries
its hand with Feldenkrais because it

comes back as failed in Christ, which
I always think is rather wonderful.

Oh, that's hilarious.

Oh my God.

You're failed

Rupert Isaacson: in Christ.

You can but the Feldenkrais method,
actually in German, what does it mean?

It just means a field circle.

It's it's a type of body work that's
very, very gentle, as you say, almost

like sort of chiropractic or osteopathy.

But without all the cracking and
with very, very subtle tiny movements

and I do know that there has been
a, a Crossover, to some degree,

between Feldenkrais and T Touch.

Can you talk to us about what are
the qualities of these movements?

Whether for humans with,
you know, or for horses.

Why so subtle?

Because some of us, for example,
me, I like deep pressure.

You know, I like subtle pressures,
but I do like deep pressure.

Other people I know don't, you
know, everybody's nervous system

is a little bit different.

So what do you feel is the key with
the subtlety of these movements?

Because, yeah, both Feldenkrais
and T Touch, it, it, it's,

it's not hard, deep pressing.

It's, it, it is more subtle.

What, what's the quality?

Robyn Hood: In the If we think about
the nervous system, and we think

about muscles, so when people like
deep tissue massage, like it to

go in, it may affect the muscle.

But it's actually the nervous system
that tells the muscle what to do.

And so you, what, what my experience
is, I personally don't like deep

tissue work because it makes me really
sore and I'm not really into pain.

That's, and there's, doesn't mean
that, that you can't have a certain

amount of discomfort and it'd be okay.

And there, you know, certainly in
the, in the Feldenkrais work, there is

a, There is sort of a portion of it.

That's not 100 percent gentle.

There's a depending on the on
the practitioner and so on.

And but you're right.

It's a lot more like what I would
call classical osteopathy because

there's 2 kinds of osteopathy
when there's 1 that's like.

Healing basically.

And then there's the one that
does is more manipulative.

I, what, what my experience is, is that
first of all, especially with animals,

we have to find a way to make contact
with them that they say it's okay.

And there's no animal on this
planet that I know that when you

go in and cause discomfort that
they're going to go great do more.

Do more.

And in fact, some of the techniques
that are used on horses that are

really deep work, they'll say, you
know, leave this door open so you can

get away if they kick you or things
like, you know, things like that.

So it may help in some ways that
you're you know, you're releasing

you're releasing some tissue or
something at the moment, but it

usually comes back pretty quickly.

So if we don't, so what, what, what I
find Is it like we have techniques that

you can go in deep without going in hard.

There's a huge, there's a huge difference
with, with that and the people that I've

worked with many people that have had that
they maybe use their upper body a lot,

so they're super tight and they've had
a lot to deep tissue work and it helps

in the moment, but it comes back so, so
quickly, the, the sort of discomfort.

And I remember one groomer who
had really tight shoulders.

And so I Did some lifts with the
wraps and I did some different

things on her shoulders and she
told me that I, because of her, her

sort of preference to heavy work.

And then she told me that
it hadn't really worked.

I went less, I went less and I
went less, but I waited longer.

And then, as I started this little release
with her, her shoulder just kept going

down and down and down and down and down.

And she said, Okay.

I've never felt that release before
because my body's always been protective.

And so I think that, especially
with animals, is there's they're

much more honest in their responses
than in a way that than humans are.

And of course you can be too light.

T touch falls into the category
of light pressure touch.

You know, the really light touch
is that alarming touch, like

when a fly walks across you.

That's not what we're looking for.

Rupert Isaacson: Really
don't like that at all.

Robyn Hood: Well, we wouldn't do that.

I don't think any any
animal really likes it.

So light pressure touch what I call
and there's there's some horses

that are super, super sensitive
and the synapses over fire.

So when you use light touch,
they it's not very comfortable.

So then what we would do.

Is apply what I call
more positive pressure.

So it would be diffusing the contact
over a larger area, but creating a

little bit more pressure that soothes
that sort of calms the synapses.

So, so there are times that
we'll go in deeper, but it won't.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you describe
for me that does make sense.

Can you describe for me a fairly
typical tea touch session?

So let's say you arrive at my barn and
my horses are hardworking boys and girls.

So, you know, like me, they've all
got a desire to have ameliorative

touch, you know, on their body.

So you'll, you know, you'd notice,
let's say I've got an older horse

and You'll notice perhaps he's
a little stiff in the withers.

Maybe he, maybe his stifle is
not everything it used to be.

Despite the fact that we're lunging
and doing in hand and doing the best

we can but nonetheless, you know So
let's say we walk in there and you

you cast your eye over the horse.

You say yeah Yeah, I can see a
couple of wear and tear spots.

I can see where the horse is perhaps
protecting itself Let's say it was

those two spots withers and stifle.

Can you describe to me more
or less how you would operate.

And what's going on through your hands?

What touches are you using?

How are they helping?

And how is this creating a bond
between you and the horse that I,

the owner, could then pick up on and
continue once you leave the barn?

Robyn Hood: Now, that's a big question
because pretty much our answer

is usually it depends, you know,
because so the first thing is to

Rupert Isaacson: an imaginary scenario.

Robyn Hood: So I, so I would say the
first thing is, if I have a hard working

horse that is older, I have lots of old
horses in, in my barn, I, I actually

am looking to help them feel better.

I, I'm not going to actually go
in and I don't want to necessarily

bring a lot more awareness.

I want to help them be able
to maybe release tension.

Take deeper breaths help them
and I, I wouldn't necessarily go

to the areas that are, that are
described as being the issue.

I

Robyn Hood: would probably start on the
opposite end of the body because the

compensation patterns that happen, I want
to find places that so I, you know, just

run my hands over the horse and and watch
for their really small response, you know,

a change in the ear, you know, like a,
just different things that they might do.

And then I'm going to change
the contact so that they can

say, Oh, yeah, this is okay.

You're okay.

You're actually going to listen to me
rather than going in and doing this.

So I, I would explore probably
extremities in the horse as well.

So I might You know, ask
them to pick up the foot.

Do some really small leg
circles, but not for very long.

I want to notice how does the
horse change their weight?

How do they change their balance?

With what ease can they
pick up any foot or not?

Is it with one side easier than the other?

I may do, probably I would do
something with the forelock, like

doing forelock slides because it
actually is kind of like doing the

tail touches only on the other end.

I'll do take a hold.

What are

Rupert Isaacson: the tail touches?

Robyn Hood: Oh yeah, right.

Okay.

Well, there's a lot.

So the thing is the tail is, you
know, connects the whole spine,

the back end to the front end.

And so, I generally on the tail would
start standing at the side, a hand

on the top of the croup because that.

really lets me feel what's
going on for the horse.

I might start by just stroking
the tail hairs from the base of

the root of the tail out to the
end, just at the top of the tail.

I noticed the response.

Then I would pick up the hair on
the top of the tailbone and pick

it up and just start just circle
the tail like, see, can they?

Can they actually pick it up?

Are they tight?

Are they clamped in the, in the tail?

And then I just do like a gentle glide
with the hair and then slowly release.

And you'll be able to see the abdominal
rectus muscle activates as you do various

things with the tail, which is incredibly
helpful for the back of the horse.

So I would do that.

And I also do that with a rider on board.

I think there is nothing more important.

Then doing some of the tail, I may
circle the tail and, and do like

a little plug in, if you will.

So I just gently can the
tail come into the body.

Can they come out?

What's the horse's response?

Because when the rider's on board,
the horse learns about the functional

posture of carrying a horse, carrying
a rider rather, and that's, and

so they, they kind of learn, the
nervous system learns that it.

That, oh, that's interesting when the
tail is, comes back, my, my back comes up.

So that's actually gonna feel better.

Same thing if I take the forelock
and I literally just take it

kind of right by the root.

I may start with stroking the
hair and then I might circle

the forelock right at the root.

And then I put a little bit of glide
out toward myself with a pause.

And then slowly carry them that back
and what what the writer feels is

this expansion through the rib cage,
and it's incredibly beneficial.

They feel you feel more when they're
with a bareback or bareback pad, but you

also feel it under the saddle and you
see the rider kind of move up and down.

So the horse kind of gets
a better sense of that.

So.

I kind of digress there, but I feel
that that's a really important.

So there are a lot of things we may do
this gentle flexion of the tailbone.

And what I notice is that as you just
gently, we call it purling, take the

tailbone in and out gently that you
feel different parts of the horse

moving if you're sitting on them.

So different parts of the spine moving.

Rupert Isaacson: Now, you're a well, well,
you know, lifelong seasoned horsewoman

and you, you breed Icelandic horses.

You've been working at
Linda's side for 300 years.

You know, but of course,
many people within the equine

assisted world, particularly
are often relative newcomers to.

To horse owning and to horsemanship,
and it can be a very confusing field.

And as you know, it's rife with faction
and it's rife with shaming, you know,

if you don't do this, you know, all
this sort of emotionally triggering

language, you know, if you don't do this,
you're going to do something terrible

to your horse and blah, blah, blah.

So of course what happens is a lot
of people come in and they're so

terrified of doing something adverse.

To that with their horse or to their
horse that they almost are on the side of

doing too little which of course is Tricky
because the horse is a super athlete

bred for thousands of years to be a super
athlete has all this energy and Also

somebody who hasn't grown up like you able
to read horse behavior There's probably

a note a time you probably can never
remember a time when you couldn't read

horse behavior because it was just all
around You it was the family culture, but

that's not true for a lot of other people.

So These are some naive questions, but I
want you to answer them as best you can.

How do you know?

How do you judge?

How do you discern if a horse is having
a positive reaction to what you're doing?

As opposed to a neutral reaction,
or maybe not even a reaction at all.

Something moves in the body, but
it's in response to something that's

going on half a kilometer away
that they're hearing or smelling.

How do you discern what
is a positive response?

Robyn Hood: It's a good question.

I would, I would say for me that just
teaching people about noticing little

shifts in weight with the horse.

And I don't know that we can
actually ever really know.

You know, there's, there's
this whole kind of culture that

people will go, Oh, This is good.

And this is bad.

You know, the horse yawns.

It's good.

Oh, the horse yawns.

It's bad.

The horse licks and chews.

It's good.

The horse licks and chews.

It's bad.

You know what?

How do we really

Rupert Isaacson: confusing?

Yeah.

Robyn Hood: And how do we really know?

And that's where I feel like if we.

If we pay attention to the small
things like does our horse just

watch it pay attention to the,
to the ears what they're doing?

And that doesn't mean that it's bad.

It just mainly means that the
horse is paying attention.

Pay attention to the, like, the
tension, maybe tension or, or if

you see lines around the mouth,
or maybe you see them yawning.

And I don't, I think yawning, I think
Most of these things, licking and

chewing, yawning, and so on, blinking,
they're a response of the nervous system.

Rupert Isaacson: They
can mean many things.

Robyn Hood: They can mean lots of things.

Rupert Isaacson: And

Robyn Hood: I think it's a huge
mistake when we say, you know,

one is this and one is that.

I think we have to just be a
bit more neutral in our response

and pay attention to it.

Like, pay attention to
when does it happen.

If you are doing something, you see
a response and you go back to where

you saw sort of a new more what I
would say kind of neutral response.

Does the horse does the horse change?

Because I think that's I think so often
we don't pay attention to when horses

are really trying to tell us something.

So, for example, grooming is
one of the biggest things that

I have people pay attention to.

That's generally one of our first
physical interactions with the horse.

So if your horse has to be cross tied
to be groomed, then I suggest you

set up a situation where they don't
have to be cross tied so you can

actually see what their response is.

Do they turn around to
do they pin their ears?

Do they move around?

Do they turn around to bite you?

And I had someone Ask me at a
class is, you know, does doing

tea touch make your horse bite?

And I said, well, not usually.

And I said, what was happening?

And she said, well, I was grooming him
and he was turning around to bite me.

And I was grooming him in the stall.

And I said, well, where
do you normally groom?

She said, he's in cross ties.

So in the cross dice, he
can't give any information.

He can move his hind end
around, but people usually kind

of tell them to stand still.

And, you know, if you get, if you
get after them enough and you are,

you know, like positive enough in
what you're doing, you can get horses

to put up with a lot of things if
they don't have that restriction.

Can we go slower when we groom?

Can we use a different kind of brush?

Use it on yourself like take a brush on
your own arm and brush like I went all

through Pony Club and of course we're
taught you know use this flicking motion.

Well a lot of horses really don't
like that and all it does is move

the dirt from one place to another.

So what happens if you turn
the brush on the side a bit

and you do a long slow stroke?

What happens then?

And notice what the horse's reaction
and I think that's one of the.

Best ways for people who
aren't familiar with horses.

Is to just start to notice response,
like notice, hopefully quiet.

If it's a big response, then you really
ideally change something that you do.

So I, I think that's a good way.

And also when you, when you
just approach your horse, how

do you approach your horse?

You know, if you approach
your horse, from the shoulder.

So I've been importing horses from
Iceland since 1977 and in Iceland

at the time, the only way they could
catch a horse was to Put them in a

small pen, put them in a corner and
then walk up to them and catch them.

They couldn't walk up to them in a
pasture and just put a halter on.

So that was the first thing that we
taught our horses is that you could

be that you could just be walk,
you know, walk up and catch them.

So we'd use a little bit of dried bread
and we'd give them a little bread.

We do a little scratch.

We'd walk away.

And then we'd go back
up and start that way.

So I think how we catch horses
is also really important.

How our first interaction, using the
back of the hand instead of the palm, is

it, for most horses, stroking just down
the, you know, the side of the neck, is

much more acceptable for most horses,
especially a horse you don't know.

When you walk towards a horse, If they
look at you, this is, you know, in

past years, we've had so many horses
that were hard to catch if I'd stop

and then I would just look away.

And then if the horse looked away
and then looked back, I could

always walk up and catch them.

So I think that just paying attention to.

Small things in the, in the pasture or
in a paddock or whatever, when you start

to make contact can be really beneficial.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I
think, I think that sometimes

one overthinks these things.

I mean, we're all mammals, and I
think all mammals enjoy a certain

that we have this thing called
the mammalian caregiving system.

So whether we're dogs being suckled,
whether we're pigs, whether we're

horses, whether we're monkeys there's
a certain just amount of touch.

Embracing and the intention long
slow strokes, as you've said, and

these seem to go across all species.

And then this thing of do
they seem to seek more?

I've got you.

You talked about the four lock pulls.

I've got a horse that, you know.

If you pull his forelock, man, he's
just going to be with you going,

Hey, how about that forelock thing?

And, you know, and he'll actively like
move his head, basically put his head

right where your hand is and say, I
would like some more of that, please.

It's very, very clear, but he's
a very connected sort of, of a

guy who's very human focused.

There could be another horse that's shy
who might like it, who might not show

it quite so, blatantly, but nonetheless.

Appears to exhale, drop the
head, half close the eye, do

sort of things that we might do.

That a dog might do, that other
mammals might do that denote pleasure.

Because oxytocin, you know, serotonin,
endorphins are common to us all, right?

So, it's, it's, it's interesting
to me that you guys at T Touch

seem to have found your way into.

a number of ways that, when I observe
it, seem to create those hormones

in the horse, and you seem to have a
repertoire of particular types of touch.

You mentioned some of them now,
and those, those listeners who've

listened to my podcast with Linda
will know about this business of

the circle and a quarter movement.

Can you talk to me a bit about that?

What is the value of the
circle and a quarter movement?

How do you do it?

And what do you observe in terms
of the horse's pleasure responses?

If you were going to say to me,
Rupert, over Zoom, I'm going to

teach you how to do the circle and
a quarter thing with your hand.

How would you do it?

Robyn Hood: Well, I, I think that I
probably, first of all, I kind of look

at the person and depends a bit on,
on their hands, for instance, like if

you're working with someone who maybe
has some arthritis in their hands,

then I'm going to have them put the
whole of the hand on the, on the, so

the fingers and the, and the palm,
not the middle of the palm, because

that's sort of concave for most people,
but just put it gently on the animal.

And then just think about, Moving
the tissue so it's like your hand

is kind of Velcro to the body and
you're going to move the tissue

in starting in an upward fashion.

So it's going to start with a lift.

So if you think about going around this
clock, and of course, now that we have

so many digital clocks, I don't even know
how people are going to learn like kids.

But if 6 on the clock is the lowest point
of gravity, you're going to make contact.

With that, and then you're going
to move the skin under your hand.

The thing that people do a
lot of times is they rub.

And if you instead can move the tissue
in approximately a circle and a quarter,

have a little pause, and then either
carry it back towards where six was, Or

you can just lightly take your hand off
and move and move to another place that

I think the most important thing and I
often have people just put their hand

on their arm so that they can on their
upper arm so that they can actually

feel the movement because the skin is
a little bit looser on most people's

arms, say, then maybe even on a horses.

And, you know, if the
tissue is really tight.

I actually suggest to people that they
imagine that they're moving the tissue,

because when we imagine doing something,
our nervous system does something, and

something will happen under our hand.

If because if the tissue is really tight,
I see people just kind of rubbing across.

Now, that doesn't mean it's bad.

It's just that there's a
different experience with that.

And, and we have so many
parts of the hand to use.

If, if somebody, if if an
animal's really sensitive, then

we might curve our fingers.

So we're going to use the backs
of our first two knuckle joints

to make that same kind of contact.

It'll diffuse the contact a little bit.

I actually have to say, I, I think one of
the reasons that the circles are useful.

is that they're a
different habit for people.

If we, when our habits bypass the
thinking part of our brain, right?

And that's what makes habits useful,
and it's what makes them easy.

We don't have to think
about doing a habit, right?

We have to think about
doing something else.

And so if I want to change something,
I have to change something,

which sounds super obvious.

But if I can give them some way that's It
can't be too different, like that's why I

look at people's hands and I look at how
they just automatically make contact with

their animals, and then I pick a touch
that I think will be a little different.

Because it's the same with our animals.

If we want to change habits, we can't
just say, other one habit is really bad.

We're going to take you
into something else.

We have to expand.

We have to step them out of the
habit and then let them come back

in and step out and come back in so
that that comfort zone gets bigger.

And so that would be the same
thing even with people and the

contact that they're making.

I might, I might start with
somebody and say, what about if you.

Stroked the horse's mane, maybe what
you do is you take a little contact

at the root of the mane and you do a
little circle and a quarter and you

pause and then you stroke probably
in the direction the hair grows.

So up a little bit and then pause bit
because you know, our, our in breath

is activates the sympathetic and
our out breath the parasympathetic,

which is why that, that external,
that exhale Is so important.

And it's people that
I have to warn people.

I said, you know, I'm
not I'm not exasperated.

I'm not bored.

That audible exhale is about grounding
and it's about and what I find is

that everyone around me will do it
and the animals will do it as well.

So I think that the circles are important.

I think they're important because they
actually help us to change a habit.

And yes, they give a different
kind of information to the body.

And if we can change something
that we do, I think that's actually

probably the most important part
of it because we start to think, be

mindful and be present and aware.

Rupert Isaacson: I think
that's a very good point.

I think, I know that particularly
those of us who are lifelong horse

people tend to have methodologies
that we comfort zones for us.

They came out of the culture
that we were born into and

they have their pros and cons.

But if we're not learning new languages,
well, we're always going to be

stuck speaking the same old dialect
of whatever language it was, which

will be great in certain contexts
and completely useless in others.

As we know, if I want to, I'm sitting
here in Germany, my London, South

African vernacular is of limited
value when I'm trying to order

a drink in a bar in Frankfurt.

You know, so I've got to, you know,
and it, I think it's, it, it's such an

interesting thing that while we know
as horse people, that there is a whole

world of equestrian culture universe of
different equestrian cultures out there,

none of which is better or worse than any
other because they all have evolved for

very specific jobs and are good at them.

So they're presumably
they, you know, they work.

And yet we often have these
defensive responses when we come

across one that's unfamiliar to us.

Oh, I don't like that.

Yeah.

I remember as a kid, once being out
hunting in Leicestershire, which is

the, the, Horse culture I grew up
in, which is very much cross country

riding, jumping, that sort of thing.

And so hunting was a big part of it.

And big fences, you know, big hedges.

So that's what it was all about.

It was about being brave and riding at
the hedge and, you know, getting over.

And they were, I was listening to
two guys discussing, local guys

discussing an equestrian show they'd
seen that had been coming through

the area in the early eighties.

And they were like, well, you know, I
don't teach my horse to do circus tricks.

And I remember sitting
there on my horse thinking.

Why not?

Why wouldn't you?

Like, what, what's wrong with that?

And, and why, maybe the
horse would enjoy it.

And why, why do you feel that the thing
that we do has more merit than that thing?

Interesting.

So interesting that we
limit ourselves in this way.

And of course, therefore,
presumably our animals.

You have within a whole repertoire of
different kinds of touches with quite

exotic names and quite specific movements
of the hand and finger that go now beyond

the circle and a quarter sort of basis.

Can you give us an example of some of
those touches and their names and what

they mean, what they're for, how they
got their names and how we might do them?

Robyn Hood: When Linda started
with this work, and I remember we

had sort of five basic touches and
basically they didn't have a name.

They had a description, you know, so
there was, we would use the flat of the

hand, or we would there were, it was
basically just giving a description.

And.

Because Linda's really interested in
this concept of light, right, left brain

learning, what she realized is that first
of all, we were working with animals.

And by the way, T Touch is actually
the only modality, like, like contact

modality that started with animals.

Like most massage and Reiki and all
these things they started with people

and then people found the value and
so they went into, you know, try

them on their animals fair enough.

Linda went the opposite way, even
though our background you know

our for in 1963 she and her first
husband wrote a book called physical

therapy for the athletic course.

So they did do, you know, like
typical kind of massage on, on horses.

But when she, you know, found
out about this, the felon Christ,

she had to change it enough.

So she, it would be teachable.

Okay.

And

Robyn Hood: so when she, many of the names
came from animals that she was working on.

So for instance, the, the clouded leopard,
she was at the Zurich zoo and she was

working with clouded leopards, have spots.

And she was working with these
young cubs that were quite.

And she said, okay, so she put her, the
pads of her fingers on the spots and she

moved the spot in a circle and a quarter.

So that became the clouded leopard,
which is kind of the You know, sort

of our hallmark touch, if you will
and then she thought, well, if I

was to make my fingers a little
flatter, which diffuses the contact.

So the 1st and 2nd flange
would be making contact.

That's when the leopard is
lying their paws down, so that

could be the lying leopard.

And so it just it developed
from that the Python lift.

It was developed, which is
basically, you know, making contact,

supporting the tissue up a little.

Pausing and carrying the tissue back
down started on Joyce the python.

And so, so it was, you
know, and it was a snake.

I mean, it was, you know,
Linda's experiences with these

animals has been so profound.

Joyce was a at the San Diego wild animal
park and the, and she had a chronic

lung infection and typically they keep
snakes in very small places and people

will say a snake wouldn't know the
difference if it lived in a shoebox.

Which is pretty shocking that
a person that actually knows

reptiles would say that.

Anyway, Joyce was lying across this
stage, and she had some troubles she

had a lot of tough trouble breathing.

And so Linda started doing these little
lifts, just along the side of her body.

And, excuse me, snakes
have an amazing tissue.

So wonderful to work, do touch on snakes.

They don't feel anything like people
think they're going to feel anyway.

She's working along doing these little
touches along the body, a little

bit behind the head, and all of a
sudden, all of this stuff started to

just expel out of this snake's nose.

And so that was quite interesting, but
the next day when the snake was brought

back up onto stage, the snake went right
past everybody, went in front of Linda,

stood up, put her head up and they,
they do this little tongue flick to,

to just check out their environment.

And that's what he did with
his head over her shoulder or

her head over her shoulder.

And the, the cameraman, this one cameraman
was afraid of snakes and he was actually

in tears when he watched it because.

He thought snakes were so awful,
and the fact that the snake clearly

made a connection to her was beyond,
beyond his, you know, his knowledge.

And so that became the Python lift.

And so many of these touches have
either come from a person who found

that they needed to touch in a different
way to make themselves comfortable.

So for instance, the owl is when
you can make a little circle with

your thumb and your index finger.

And Linda started using it on her ribs
because it's an easy way to make that

circle and a quarter on your ribs or on
your back because your hand isn't twisted.

And it feels different.

It's not just that we kind of lie
in bed at night and think of how

can we have these different names.

They feel different.

They feel different.

They're different for people to use.

And we want to make it accessible.

So we want to find things that people
that individuals can do easily.

For instance, if somebody is has
loose ligaments or is, you know,

double jointed, the lying leopard
will, or the clouded leopard will

be the hardest touch for them to do.

Because when they make contact
with the pads of the fingers,

the first joint collapses.

Which creates more context.

So for that person, we'd
say, ah, do the chimp.

So curve your fingers and use the
back of the fingers or use the

flat of the hand so that you're not
going to have this direct pressure.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

developed in conjunction with Dr.

Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Why was why was Linda working
with these zoo animals?

How did that come about as a horse person?

Robyn Hood: Why she was
working with the snake?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah, and other
zoo animals, the clouded leopards.

How did that evolve?

Robyn Hood: Well, some
from the Icelandic horses.

So, Dr.

Eason Bugle was the director at the
Zurich Zoo, and he also had Icelandic

horses, and he saw what Linda was doing,
and he said, well, do you think it could

help this, whatever the animal was?

And so she went, she was having a, you
know, like a tour of the zoo, and these

little cubs had a distemper and were
like frothing at the nose and so on.

And she did the raccoon touch,
the very, very small touches

of the tips of the fingers.

All around the nose, the face and so on.

And she only did it on one and the
others watched and benefited as well.

Which again is, there's so many things
that we don't understand in this life

and it doesn't mean that they don't
work because they all recovered and

they didn't think that they would.

Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting
you know that we we have something

in within horseboy method called
sensory work which came out of when

my son first started going to Betsy
the horse that he made the first

contact with he would just lie on her.

And I would keep a hand on him to, you
know, steady him, but she would graze and

he would use her body like a big old couch
and, but he would find ways he would have

certain preferred ways to lie on her.

And when he would turn
around on her and lie.

With his head on her butt,
which, and sort of hug the butt,

we call that the butt hug now.

You know, within horse boy method.

The effects on her would be
the same as the effect on him.

She would effectively go into
almost a state of hypnosis.

All his sensory stuff would calm down.

Her sensory system
would clearly calm down.

But as you say, the other animals in the
vicinity, because there were always two

other horses in the field, whenever he did
that, would always begin to come closer.

And then absolutely mimic the
same nervous system release.

Sort of hypnotic state almost literally
drooling with a sort of a string of

drool Connecting their mouths to the
to the grass that she was and we've

seen this time and time and time again.

And as you know

The hormones that we produce for
stress are fairly contagious You

know, they you can that's why
you know crowds are dangerous

but equally what's not so talked
about is that pleasure and comfort

and soothing also seems to be
the contact high effectively.

So when you talked about those clouded
leopards, I was thinking about the other

horses just, and I've observed this
with TTouch when, when Linda's been at

our place and has been working on one
of our horses, any horse that's within

about 25, 30 feet is clearly benefiting.

and clearly participating.

When you're moving the skin in these
ways, where you're sort of lifting,

whether it's the python lift or
whether it's the owl, or whether it's

the clouded leopard, are you working
with fascia, or are you working with

epidermis, or are you working with both?

What do you feel you're accessing
mostly, or most directly?

Robyn Hood: I have no idea.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

That's an honest answer.

You know,

Robyn Hood: it's Ricky Schultz is a vet
in Denmark and she wrote with another

German a book on fascia a couple of
years ago for for dogs and for horses.

And she spent three months Fascia,

Rupert Isaacson: isn't it?

I'm sorry.

I had to go there.

Robyn Hood: Yeah, right.

There you go.

She was she spent three months with me
on my farm when she was in vet school.

And and then in, I
think in about 2000 and.

12 as a vet, she wrote she wrote an
article called a woman ahead of her

time about, about Linda and T Touch
and it was her feeling that the,

that the touches affected connective
tissue, which connective tissue is

Fascia is connective tissue, but
not all connective tissue is fascia.

So it's very, very, very connected.

And in their very old route, like a
form of of body work and, you know,

instead of meridians, like fascia,
like fascia, connective tissue

carries information faster into more
areas of body than, than meridian.

So we don't have to know where they are.

That's actually, The beauty of this
work is so my, my interest is, is

finding out what the horse says.

Yes, this is acceptable for me.

That's the most important thing is.

Oh, yeah, then they might go.

Oh, I'm not sure.

And then you change it a little bit.

You change the pressure, the speed, the
type of touch, the part of the hand.

You may do a pause.

And then you go to where they seem
okay, and then you kind of move

away and they go, ah, you get it.

And from there is when, so, so
I feel that that interaction of

having that animal say, yes, this
is okay, is the most important.

thing that we do.

So what?

That's why we also have so many
touches because if and when someone

says my animal can't be touched,
I'll kind of go, what have you done?

And it's like, because if you, you
multiply the types of touches with

the pressure, with the speed, with the
direction, and you have infinite numbers.

Now, we also have the body
wraps and what I've started.

That's what I was going

Rupert Isaacson: to ask you about next.

So thank you for taking us there.

Yeah.

Robyn Hood: Okay.

All right.

So, of course, the body wraps
basically bring information

through the nervous system.

When I talked to Ricky Schultz about it,
she said they also follow fascia lines.

So maybe that's part of it.

And what they affect is
the superficial fascia.

And it's, you know, it's interesting
how these things progress because I, you

know, when you were talking about, you
know, the sensory integration and so on,

is that we do things because they work.

And if they don't work,
we do something else.

And then later on.

The science proves that they work
and it's kind of like, Oh, good.

Well, we've known that for a long time.

But, you know, that's kind of nice
to have that that sort of validation.

And so the, the body wraps, give them
a sense of where they are in space.

They're not intended to be give
support, but rather feedback.

What I've started to do is take the
wraps because we always did belly lifts.

Belly lifts are amazing with wraps.

We started out, you know, for
colic with towels and so on.

The wraps are so much more subtle and
my experience is that horses respond

so well and dogs too, especially
if they have any touch sensitivity.

So any kind of touch defensiveness,
which many beings have, the,

the wraps can be useful.

So started taking a wrap.

And instead of putting it necessarily
around the body is taking it across

the body, and either just just put it
on the body and either just stretch

it a little, and then pause and
slowly carry release the stretch, or.

Putting it against the body so that it's,
you know, kind of firmly placed, and

then moving it in a circle and a quarter.

Once again, you're moving tissue.

This is way less threatening for beings
that have touch, you know, concerns.

And, or, we started actually with a
horse that had a very roached back.

And of course we have always done,
you know, lifts on the legs with the

wraps, and, you know, so that you're
supporting the tissue up a bit,

and along the neck is also amazing.

But we thought, well, what would happen
if we took it across the top of the

back, and we actually just gently
stretched it down and paused, and

then we slowly released the stretch.

And the horse's back went from
being really roachy to flattening.

And that was our first thought of, wow,
this could be pretty interesting to do.

So I have a, one of our instructors
in Australia works with a lot of

racehorses, and she, she uses this with.

horses with kissing spine, horses
with a lot of things that are

super fit for work, so they can
be really sensitive about contact.

And when I showed this to Rikki Schultz,
she said, yes, I think you're really

affecting the superficial fascia.

So we call it fascial integration.

And it's it's interesting because
Of course, everybody wants to go

everything deep and, you know, the
fascia, the iron, the fascia, and so on.

And now, gee, guess what?

They're finding that maybe it actually
is a little more beneficial to do less.

Rupert Isaacson: Can
you describe the wraps?

I think it's hard for people
that haven't seen the body wraps.

To know what it is you're talking about.

So, just for listeners, we're not
talking about the the horse resembling

an Egyptian mummy These are Specific
wraps that go around specific parts of

the body and one of the things which
I love about them is that you can do

them in movement And they can have all
sorts of beneficial effects there too.

Could you describe to us please Robin?

You know, a fairly typical series
of types of wrap you would do.

More or less what they look like.

What are you actually using for the wraps?

And, you know, for somebody
to get a bit of a pictorial

understanding of it in their head.

Robyn Hood: If you've ever had a
sprained ankle or a sprained wrist

or whatever, you will have had some
sort of tensor bandage on your wrist.

You know, you can put it on your
wrist or your or your ankle.

Now on your ankle, they probably
put it rather tight for support.

So it felt good at first, but then
it would start to ache after a while.

So literally, it's any
type of elastic bandage.

Now we pay attention to the amount
of stretch there is, but in general,

even if you had a leg wrap for the
horse, the challenge is the German

ones are really tight, the stretch,
but there's some that are really soft.

You take a wrap.

The first thing that I would
do you could use a polo wrap.

I mean, if that's what you
have and you have nothing else,

you could use a polo wrap.

It won't give you the
same amount of stretch.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So ideally, what wrap would you use?

Robyn Hood: Depends where you live,
because there's a lot of ideas.

So what I do is we use a lot of ace wraps.

We use Hartman.

There's different companies that,
that make, they're basically

medical elastic elastic.

Generally, all cotton is good.

That's what A stands for, all cotton,
elastic, no latex, because it changes

the way the stretch is, but there's
lots that, that are available.

So, with a, the average horse,
a, I would use a 4 inch or 10

centimeter, that they is pretty
common to be, to be sold in the store.

And that's what most Polo wraps are,
is they're about 10 centimeters wide.

I would start with it just going
around the base of the neck.

And what it does is it helps to
release that so many horses brace

at the base of the neck, and it
just gives them an awareness about.

can they, can they release
your, that base of the neck?

It's the same with people.

You put a very light wrap
around the shoulders.

They may not, ideally they don't feel it.

It's not feeling tight.

And you'll notice in maybe 15 or 20
minutes, the shoulders start to let go.

They start to actually
let go into that wrap.

So the same kind of thing that I might
do, the easiest thing to do, start

with it around the base of the neck.

With young horses, the next step that
we would do is we would put it around

the girth area and attach it to the
Base wrap or the right wrap that's

around the base of the neck because we
want to prepare them for the feeling

of something around their middles,
you know, or a horse that happens to

be girthy or, you know, sort of cold
backed and so on can also be beneficial.

Then I, I, ideally you move them after
each, after each thing that you, that

you add if you can, especially the first
time, because you can be surprised at the

amount of change in posture that happens.

It's just a simple wrap or even a
wrap when you move, when you say

Rupert Isaacson: move them,
would you take the wrap off

and move them or would you move

Robyn Hood: them with the wrap on
take, take them for a little walk

just to see, just, I mean, just
move them a little bit to see what

does there a change in the posture?

Is there a change in their balance
point is, do they now have a leg at

each corner or are they really straddle?

You may see, are they
really leaning forward?

They may take them back so that the
chest comes over the front legs.

You don't know.

You just observe.

That's where it's a good practice to
simply observe what you're seeing.

And because this is the other thing, you
know, about, about T Touch when I went

into the sort of application that we have.

Most body work doesn't take them
into kind of mindful movement.

It's changing a little bit now, but
that's what's so important, because

if we can't change how they move, Just
standing still and releasing isn't really

useful because most people ride their
horses or they do something with them.

And that's why we want to take it and the
wraps can help to take that into movement.

So that's the simplest thing
that I have people start with.

Now, if a horse.

has worn a rug, like worn some kind
of blanket, and they're comfortable

around things around their hind
end, then we might add a wrap that

goes around the hind quarters.

Now, what I've started to do is chunking
down, because that's the thing, when

we can break things into small pieces,
we can make it easier for people even

to observe and for horses to accept.

So I might take that wrap and just
between my two hands stretch it

across the like just one side of the
rear end maybe to the tail like so

it's going just around the buttocks.

Do a little stretch,
pause, and slowly release.

I might do that from both sides.

That's going to give you an idea of
how the horse might feel when you

put a little figure eight wrap that
goes around the chest, crosses over

the withers, comes back around the
hindquarters, and attaches back to itself,

which would take two or three wraps
depending on the length of your wraps.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you also do
a wrap which I've seen, it's intriguing

to me, around the top of the head.

Please talk to me about that.

Robyn Hood: Once again, one of the
things that has been so helpful for

us, you know, you asked how did Linda,
you know, how does a horse person go

to work with these different animals?

I would say, That I have learned as much
working with species that are unfamiliar

to me and transferring that information to
species that are familiar to me, then with

the knowledge that I have, because as you
say, if you're a long time horse person,

you know, quote unquote, what's right,
what's wrong, how, you know, how you do

things and when you go to a species, you
don't know much about or anything about.

You have to open your
mind to something else.

And so then, so with the head
wraps, it started with a dog.

I remember the dog.

I had a little face wrap on him because
he was doing a lot of barking and so on,

just to bring awareness around his muzzle.

And he took his paw and he
pushed it up to his forehead.

And so here, here it is across the
forehead and he was absolutely calm

and quiet and totally okay with it.

And so I showed this at one of
our advanced trainings and one

of our vets who is a holistic
vet said, you know, could be.

That so the, the, the, the
front of the forehead is the

start of the governing vessel.

And that is a common point.

So it could be, and
it's not about pressure.

It's just about this little
awareness that maybe that's one

of the things that's calming them.

Now, we were discussing this at
the celebration last weekend.

The other thing is, is that the, the
head wrap, where the points that it

does, maybe what it does is it connects
our new brain to our old brain.

And so it's connecting the
different parts, sort of different

neurological parts of the body.

What we've seen with horses that
are, like, say, really hyper excited,

concerned about things, wrap, and I
usually start with just take it twice

around the neck, a little, little
bit behind the ears, and then bring

one of them forward over the ears.

That's the easiest way
to do it for someone.

Horses will suddenly calm down.

They will be, they, they'll still
look around, but they're, it,

it just takes 'em down a notch.

Now, if you put it on a horse that's
really quiet, it can make them too quiet.

So you just take it off
and then it, it's okay.

I think that it also helps them come
more into their own bodies rather

than being external, you know,
they're these external horses that

they're just aware of everything but
not themselves, and I think it helps

to bring them more into themselves.

Certainly helps people.

Rupert Isaacson: I've seen Linda when
she was out with us, we had three

stallions who could be quite stallion y.

And she would sometimes work with
her fingers inside the mouth.

Not as in jaw flexions, but actually on
the gums around the front of the teeth.

I remember the first time I saw
her do it, I was like, oh gosh,

I hope you don't lose a finger.

And quite the opposite this
seemed to be a massively calming

experience for the horses.

Can you talk to us a little bit
about those, those gum releases

and how, what, how they work?

Robyn Hood: Yeah, so the multitouch,
if we think about that, the mouth is

one of the closest connections we have
to the limbic system, really primary

controller of lots of different, you
know, basic functions of the body.

And we can see that in horses and dogs
and people, you know, and where people

will say yes, I'm just fine and their
upper lip is like really stiff and

really tight when they're totally not.

Fine.

And we see it with horses, too.

And so what we found is that, and,
and I recommend to people who aren't

so familiar with horses is, you know,
start with the backs of your fingers or

fingers curved and, and do some circular
touches around the outside of the muscle.

And

Robyn Hood: you want to hold one hand
lightly on the halter on the other

hand, because it's about steadying the
horse, like giving the horse a little

bit of a parameter without, you know,
holding tightly, but you're safer

that way you're in better balance.

And so you can go around and the, and the
chin used to feel around the chin when

horses are super generally emotional about
something, the chin may be super tight,

really, really tight so this touch brings
awareness people have the same thing.

Going around the outside and then.

You can we have, you know, we teach people
about keeping their fingers together

and being able to go in up on the side
of the mouth or just gently taking your

side of your index finger and coming
around the inside of the upper lip or

the lower lip thumb is really helpful.

And it's actually the thing we
recommend to Maori horses, which

is the exact opposite of what you
know, people would actually expect.

And, you know, I mean,
you can learn so much.

I remember I was teaching somewhere and
they had a, you know, a young quarter

horse and the horse had started to
become really difficult to bridle.

And so what I did is I went and
I did some work on the outside

of the mouth and I went in.

where the gum meets the upper lip with
the side of my index finger and just

kind of gently rubbing back and forth.

And if the mouth is dry, wet your hand.

And what I felt was he had a tooth
that was cracked and it was hanging.

So he was young and he
was changing his teeth.

So imagine what that
would feel like for him.

Yes, he's cooperative about being
bit, having the bit in, and then

he starts to change his teeth
and it hits the, hits the tooth.

Wonder he didn't want it in.

Once they could understand that,
they changed what they did.

And I think that one of our, I think the
biggest, the most important aspect of

this work is to understand that behavior
is a form of communication, particularly

if you have a horse that suddenly the
behavior changes, really look deeply,

because in my experience, there is.

Always a reason.

Always.

Rupert Isaacson: Just writing that down.

Behaviour is a form of communication.

Look deeply.

There's always a reason.

I love that.

Robyn Hood: And I, I can tell you that
there have been times that I've worked

with horses and I've thought to myself
maybe this one just doesn't, you know,

maybe there's one that now they're just,
and I have to tell you that on those

horses I've found that there's been such
a reason that they didn't cooperate.

That it was a miracle that they could
do what they could and, and it's often

not found until a dissection is done.

And in the dissection and there, I mean,
Sharon May Davies is doing amazing work

with doing dissections and usually they're
on animals that people have gone through

everything, you know, like all sorts of.

You know, sort of westernized
and allopathic and some holistic

medicine, and they've, there's nothing
that can change what's going on.

And when they do a dissection, they
find that organs are in the wrong place.

Things are, there's, ribs are in
different, in different configurations.

So I consider That it's a miracle what
horses actually do for us in reality.

Rupert Isaacson: No, I, I agree.

And it's, it's an interesting thing
too that in our current season of

horsemanship in the West there's of
course a very well meaning and it comes

from a good place emphasis on, you know,
we don't want our horses to suffer.

So trying to do less or ask less or
put less pressure on or whatever.

And.

One of the things that one often gets
told is, well, you know, a horse can feel

a fly, you know, walking on its back.

Well, yes, but so can I,

and I

Rupert Isaacson: can feel that.

And sometimes feeling feels not good.

And sometimes that feeling feels good.

And I can wear a backpack and hike up a
mountain, even if that backpack isn't.

Made customized for me and if my shoulders
are a bit sore after a day or two of

that They seem to get less sore later
unless there's something desperately

wrong with the backpack or it's just
way too heavy or something So that we

seem to have gotten to a point where?

We're being told that anything with
the sympathetic nervous system any kind

of stress is automatically bad And,
of course, this isn't necessarily so.

So, yeah, horses can be very stoic
about what they put up with people, too.

And I think people often go through
life bearing an awful lot of discomfort,

but not necessarily suffering.

Because it becomes familiar.

Sometimes suffering, sometimes not.

Like, something That you
mentioned like the tooth hanging

and knocking against a bit.

No doubt, you know

But if someone maybe had the ribs in
the wrong place I'm equating it to a

human now or an organ in a weird place
but had sort of learned to compensate

for that and go through life or

Are they suffering they might communicate
that they are or they might not

communicate they are or they might say
no I'm actually not this is sort of my

reality This sort of feels all right to
me and then maybe an autopsy would be

done on them and one would look at them
go My god, how did you get through life?

So to me?

It's an endless mystery as you say and
a miracle I mean, there's the other

thing too, which is that God didn't
invent ponies to carry monkeys, right?

So just by sitting up there we're Got
to to some degree negatively affect

the thing that's carrying us and yet
at the same time a horse can go on

into their 30s quite happily carting
monkeys about As you say it's a miracle

And speaking of miracles, you know when we
go into the the sphere of the therapeutic.

I always feel that that's where
You enter this sort of quantum

area with horses where Suddenly
what you think you know about them

Dissolves into a miasma of what's
actually going on and you yourself told

me a story I'd love it if you would
retell that story about the girl with

cerebral palsy Because I think that
that really illustrates that point.

Would you be so kind as to
tell listeners that story?

Robyn Hood: Yeah, and I do think

I do think that horses are
here to teach us a lot.

I really do believe that.

And I think it.

That we still have to be their stewards

Rupert Isaacson: without a doubt.

Robyn Hood: You know, that's the so I
think we have to look at a lot of things.

So, about, I don't know, 35 years
ago, I was approached by a family that

had she'd been taking writing lessons
at the local therapeutic writing.

Facility and

Rupert Isaacson: Canada.

Robyn Hood: This is in Canada.

And she wanted to they want
to get a horse for and we, we

bred Icelandics at that point.

And I had a young Icelandic, like,
we don't start our horses until

they're 4 and then we, we start really
riding them maybe at 5 and carry on.

And so I said, well, come on out and
I have a horse that might be useful

because I wanted a really smooth horse.

And this was a gelding
who actually had no trot.

He, he and, and one of the reasons,
and you probably know this, but one of

the reasons that gated horses can be
so helpful is because their motion is

more side to side than forward and back.

So it actually counterbalance the
state that lack of stability with

if riders don't have the light
forward and back stability sort of.

like evens it out a little.

So they came out and they put her in
her wheelchair and she was like, she

was quite pretty, pretty non verbal.

Like she could make sounds and so
on, but she didn't really speak.

And they, so I brought this little horse,
Bangsy, out and I, I said, you know,

you can meet him in the wheelchair.

And he put his nose down and
he sniffed all around her.

Never seen wheelchair before.

He just sniffed all around
him and she loved it.

Of course, he sniffed her hair
and he sniffed everything.

And then I said, Well, I think you could
put her on him and he studied separated

just like he stood like just like he was.

Racing himself so it'd be very
stable for her to be put on and

like her legs kind of out there.

And there he was.

So his father put her on.

And of course, at the time, what he
did, he was told to because her legs,

her muscles were very contracted.

He told her, you know, he
would pull her legs down.

And I said, can I show you something
that might be easier for her?

So I showed some python lift.

So I literally put my hand on the leg
and I supported the tissue up a bit.

And I paused.

And then I slowly carried it down and
her legs just melted around the horse.

And it was fascinating because whenever
she'd come out and her, her father would

go to pull her legs down, she'd point at
me to do the other thing with her legs.

So we started off by leading her
with him and he was very good.

We had sidewalkers like she was used to,
but she'd fallen off with sidewalkers

like she was pretty unbalanced.

We graduated to her riding.

We ponied her.

We found that actually ponying her
was the easiest thing because if

she started to lose her balance, we
could just kind of, you know, take

her arm and pull her back on it.

And we took her out on the trail.

We took her out and we had it.

The thing is, her parents said,
listen, this is so much joy for her.

She would, she would smile and laugh
and she would make these kissing

sounds when she wanted to go faster.

And then he would tolt and she would
like just grin and then he'd canter, like

a canter, like a little rocking horse.

And she was, she had freedom
for the first time in her life.

And I have to say that we
moved from Alberta to B.

C.

and that was the thing
that was the hardest.

Was leaving her because she had to, she
moved to another place, but it wasn't

the same in terms of what she got.

But the relationship, this, this horse,
we would know when she was coming out

because he would be standing at the
gate 10 minutes before she arrived.

And never any other time.

So we, Oh, well, you know, Eileen must
be on her way out and there she is.

But the, the, the joy and the relationship
that this horse, I, I feel that this

horse felt it was his purpose in a
way to, to to have this person because

she just adored, he would, she would
feed him carrots and he would slobber

all over her and she adored it.

You know, it was, it was the thing in
her life that gave her, I think the most.

The most freedom.

So it was a very it's very an
impactful experience for us.

Rupert Isaacson: I had a horse once.

It was an extraordinary horse.

He died last year.

Ripe old age, just
found dead in the field.

The best way to go.

We had a kid come out to us that
had drowned and was completely

unresponsive, but alive.

And people said, well, you know, he's
sort of a vegetable, you know, he won't

give you any any sort of feedback at all.

Do you think you could do something?

And, you know, you get these emails,
you're like, gosh, I really don't

know, I, you know, I'm not hubristic
enough to say that we could, but I'm

obviously not going to say don't come.

So.

They came and we were all a bit nervous
this quarter horse clue who was a

grumpy old bastard Like he proved to
me that I cannot train a horse Anything

that I tried with him was that nope.

No, no, but yet he would do everything
if it was his idea so he was the he

was the consummate horse I could always
rely on if I had to go say into do

something in the city or stunts like go
into a department store or A nightclub

while the band is playing to talk to
people about autism and stuff like that.

He'd just be rock solid because he
found it interesting, basically,

you know, he'd be like, okay, fine.

That's kind of amusing.

I'll do that.

But if it didn't interest
him, he'd be like, no, sorry.

And so my attempts to, you know,
dressage the horse were laughable.

But he, this, this

kid in the chair is brought out.

And Clue looks over, he must have been
about a hundred meters away in the field.

He looked around and he just came straight
over, did exactly what you talked about,

sniffed everything, sniffed the child.

And I wasn't thinking, oh, we're
going to work with Clue or anything.

I was just sort of standing
there thinking, I don't

know what we're going to do.

And then he began to lick the child

all over the body.

Never seen anything like this before.

Haven't seen it since either.

I don't mean a couple of licks.

I mean A bath, a tongue bath.

What's going on?

I don't know what's going on.

So, long and the short of it, is we put
the child on top, and the child began to

respond, and the child began to point, and
make noises and indicate what they wanted.

And, what was passing
between Clue and this child?

One could only guess at.

What was passing between your
girl and that young horse?

How did he know that she was
Going to come ten minutes before.

Okay, maybe he could, he could
identify the sound of the car at

a certain distance, or something
like that, but chances are it

sounded much the same as other cars.

What, what did he know, and how?

As you said earlier in the,
in the, in this interview, you

know, observation is everything.

Yeah.

Isn't it

Rupert Isaacson: interesting how often
it still leaves us scratching our heads?

Robyn Hood: Yeah.

Wow.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Now you, you don't, of
course, just work with horses.

You work with dogs.

And one of the things which we're often.

Desirous of people who work with
the equine assisted field to do is

don't just work with horses because
Social animals we're social animals.

We monkeys you never know what the
person is going to get into you

never know what other Feedback is
going to come from other animals.

Talk to us about the work that
you do with dogs Because the dog

is the sort of most obvious one
that most people have access to.

Most special needs people, most people
needing some sort of therapy, they

don't really have access to horses.

They might come out to your barn,
they might come out to my barn,

but it's not their daily life.

Dogs can be.

Can you talk to us about the TTouch you do
with dogs, and the work you do with dogs?

How similar is it to the work you
do with horses, and what are the

contexts that you find it useful in?

Robyn Hood: Well, when we first
started, of course, you know, Linda

started the work with horses, and
then it was like, oh, Well, could

it could you work with dogs as well?

And could you work with other animals?

And we didn't really know.

My interest in working with people
with dogs is to again, have dogs have

as much choices as possible in life.

It's not, you know, none
of us have complete choice.

For sure.

I feel like it's so
important to pay attention.

I think dogs get misread so often.

I think these dogs, you know, Oh,
my dog's so happy to see everybody.

It's like, but are they really
like they're so what are they?

What does that look like?

Is what I always ask people
is what is that like?

Oh, I'm so happy.

Look like, well, they're bouncing
all around and they're, you

know, tails wagging and they're
jumping on people and so on.

And it's like, well, Could it be
that their behavior is sort of

disproportionate to the situation?

You know, if you, like I, my dog, when
I come home or one of my dogs, both of

my dogs, when I come home from being
away, they're like super excited.

That's kind of predictable.

But if someone comes that doesn't know
a dog at all, and they have this, you

know, super highly aroused behavior,
I feel like it's simply arousal and

it isn't necessarily, it may be how
they cope with this sort of situation.

And so, I.

Encourage people to be calmer
around dogs and not like get into

this, you're such a good dog and
this ruffling things with dogs.

They don't know.

And this like, whack, whack, whack is
supposed to be such the same with horses.

You know, do you think the horses
really think that when we smack

them when we're happy and we smack
them when we're mad that it's, you

know, means, you know, it's okay.

So I, I just want people to don't.

One of the ways that we can be able
to live in our homes is to help

people build a relationship and
understand that they can meet as

many needs as the dogs that they can.

And that's not always
easy in the lifestyle.

We live on a farm.

You probably do too.

We, our dogs have a lot of freedom.

We have sheep and we have cows.

And I was thinking about all the animals.

We have sheep and cows
that are super friendly.

And so people get to interact
with them because they're there

because they've been there.

Yeah.

You know, they've been handled,
but they also have freedom.

So, you know, there's that,
there's that kind of thing.

So, I would say that the biggest thing
is to help dogs and their people be in

physical, emotional and mental balance.

That would be our, our aim.

And if we can help people start to.

Pay attention to that.

They start to observe their dogs in a
different way and maybe understand again

their, their behavior a little bit more.

It's dogs really do a lot for us
because they live in our homes and

they, they are so, so emotionally
attached to people reading their

emotions of how they're feeling.

And if I think that a lot of
times that people looked at

their dogs, they could be.

They could know what they're what's
going on for them as well and it's

like my acupuncturist would say to me.

So, you know, how are your moods?

And I go, don't ask me ask my husband
or ask my kids or ask whatever.

I, I don't necessarily know
what's going on, but I feel like

we can really see a reflection.

A lot of times with our dogs.

I would say,

Rupert Isaacson: when you're using
T touch with dogs give me some

examples about What you'd use for what
situations and what you would show?

Well, and what are the sort of go tos
that you you typically find yourself?

So with

Robyn Hood: puppies with puppies
isn't i'm going to start puppies

and go to your old age The thing is
first thing is with puppies is We,

we use what we call containment.

So contain versus restraint.

Those are kind of words that we
use even for bowls, whatever it is.

So if we can teach people to make
mindful contact on the body, like

gently stroke the ears, for instance,
gently the mouth and the paws, not just.

desensitization, but actually
help them be comfortable by doing

little bits of, of touch and
contact and so on with the puppy.

So it could be any type of touch.

Usually we teach a little bit of the
ear slides maybe a bit of tail touches

and just some gentle work on the body,
because that can be so calming for

puppies that are like over the top.

And then as they're going into sort
of more, you know, adolescent that

are kind of over the top, then we
start into Again, some some touches

because they'll go through a period
where maybe they're a little bit.

They're kind of reactive to touch and
that doesn't mean in a negative way, but

they get sort of hyperactive, if you will.

So maybe we have to change our touch.

Maybe we have to change what we do.

Maybe we want to take them
into mindful movement.

And this is not about, it's
not about training the dog.

It's so like with the horses, we use
different elements like the labyrinth

and maybe different surfaces and
so on, so that we can have short

periods of making a connection with
them through doing mindful movement.

Mindful.

And slow movement builds muscle at
a deeper level than fast movement.

So if we can have these moments
of helping them come into physical

balance, that can be super helpful.

Same with, you know,
building a relationship.

Relationship is.

It's so important because it's that
relationship that they want to cooperate.

They want to be with you.

They, they, you know, and that's
what we're looking for is how can we

build a relationship years ago when
we had our, our, our first companion

animal training and it was up here
and it was in the winter and it was

really colder than it should be.

So we went down to a local
school and there was a

kindergarten class in progress.

So we sent a couple of our practitioners
into the kindergarten with a couple of

stuffed dogs to talk to them about how
they make contact with their dogs at home.

And We got the feedback that from two
of the kids, one of them said, you know,

my, our dog never wanted to be with me.

But after I started, you know, doing these
touches, the dog wanted to be with me.

And the same thing with the cat, the
cat started to come and sleep on my

bed and I always wanted the cat to make
a connection, but it didn't like me.

And it just, you know, it was just
showing them a different way of, of making

contact and being mindful with that.

So that was.

You know, that's so powerful when you can
when you can give children a way to help

them build a relationship in that way.

And then, of course, with with
older dogs, we have a husky

cross that will be 15 in April.

And he so we do.

T touches on him regularly.

He's losing a little bit of, you
know, the connection of his back end.

So we put a little Porter wrap where
it just goes across the chest, across

over the back, and then attaches.

So it's just one wrap around the
chest and one going around the middle.

It stabilizes him to the point that
he, he's not losing his own legs.

He can get out and be
really, really jaunty.

So, It's you can really use it
throughout their whole life and I feel

that when we build relationship with
them, they, they want to listen to us.

They, you know, they want to cooperate.

They want to be with it.

So, of course, you can use it with
any modality that you're using.

But I feel like it's the, I feel
like relationship is what most

people want with their animals.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I think it's what
most animals want, if they're mammals in

particular, you know, with us and with
each other and it's, it's so interesting

how, although, for example, I'm sure this
was the case for you when I was growing

up, it was very much the case of dominate.

We weren't actually ever told to dominate
in those words, but it was, you make

him do what you, he's got to do what you
want to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That was.

The accepted and and myths like they
say the horse didn't want to go past

something or something You know, if
you get off, you know, you he's one

you've told him he's one then I realized
after a while that it wasn't true

But nonetheless, you know as a kid
this is the feedback one was getting

and you could see the utilitarian
imperatives that had made that way of

thinking become ingrained in the culture.

However, what it always still came down
to when, when you heard people talking

about good horsemen, or when the people
really started talking about their horses.

It always came back to
relationship, even that, but then

we sort of embarrassed about it.

And they'd be like, well, you know, we
don't really want to admit that we're

sentimental or, you know, that we might.

You were allowed to say
you loved your horse.

You were allowed to
say you loved your dog.

You weren't really allowed
to say you loved your kid

or

Rupert Isaacson: your wife or
your, you know, or your mom.

But.

It's, you know, we come out of this
militaristic society and pony club, you

know, we were all brought up that way.

This came out of the military, you
know, and you could see how that

way of screaming at people and
effectively making them fall off

actually might be quite useful.

If you were trying to train raw
recruits for the cavalry, you know,

and they had to withstand screams,
you know, stress falling off,

getting shot out of the saddle.

You know, that's why the sergeant
screams in your face, so that,

you know, when you're under fire,
you, you know, aren't so stressed.

Okay, in that battle
situation, maybe That's useful.

But then what happens when
you come out of the battle?

What happens if you're
never in the battle?

What happens if you never
wanted to be in a battle?

So I think so many of us and so
many of our animals have had to

undergo this sort of approach

Which got looked at as a kind of a
virtue because it created toughness,

resilience, that sort of thing

But did it really create resilience
or did it just create desensitization

with Problematic traumatized behaviors
that came out later, you know, and

the answer probably was often Sure.

So, when you guys were first putting
T Touch together, as you said earlier

in this conversation, that Linda was
about 20 years ahead of her time,

and I think you're right, you know,
I think that, I remember when I first

started hearing about her, the type
of conversation that we're having

now was not, by any means, the norm.

And, she must have, and you must
have, encountered a lot of resistance.

How did you Deal with that.

I mean beyond the kind of okay.

Well, it's all right if people disagree
with us But you know, you know, and

I know that you know people in the
horse world can be pretty awful you

must have come in for your fair share
of that especially in the early years.

What were your strategies for, for
coping with that and staying sort

of true to your methods and seeing
it sort of borne out over time?

Cause you also must have been asked
to question yourselves a lot as well.

I'm sort of intrigued by how
you weathered all of that.

And, you know,

Robyn Hood: Yeah, that's a good question.

I, I think that early on there were,
because You know, we have articles

dating back to, you know, in the,
I think in 1981, Practical Horseman

did a an article called Soften, How
to Soften Your Horses Defenses, and

it was primarily about doing that.

It was, it turned into a little
booklet, and it, it sold really well,

and from that, we ended up, then
we'd start, we'd do these little

workshops, and we'd have people come.

So the people who came, you We're
people who are looking for something.

Okay.

Robyn Hood: And so I, so I think
that it, it kind of, feel the need.

So, for the most part.

We didn't have people coming.

They didn't pay money to come and go.

Well, this is a load
of, you know, whatever.

And and I remember, remember,
and when did we go to Australia?

We went to, we went and we
did this transformation on the

trail in sometime in the 80s.

And I did a little demo.

We all, I went and I did a little
two day demo and there was a couple

there who were He was shortlisted
for the, for the Australian three

day team and they were lifelong
horse people and so on and so forth.

And they saw it.

And then they, I was coming back to
Australia, they organized for me to

come and do a seven day training because
what they said was what they saw and

the change that they saw in the horse,
they, they were smart enough to realize

that there must be something to it.

You know that I think that's the thing.

And so to be honest, some of
the things that happen with

what we do sound ridiculous.

You know, it's just sounds like even, you
know, I, I, I'm sometimes just shocked

at some of the things that happen.

And I like that because I, nothing
makes me more sort of suspicious

of something when someone
says, Oh, piece of cake, easy.

I can fix that that, you know, like
these are beings we're working with,

with all these different circumstances.

So, I did have you know, I would have
sometimes people come when they, and it

was hard if they brought their own horse.

And they tell the story and so on.

And then we could do things with
their horse that they couldn't in

a very, very short period of time.

And we have to be really
careful with that because.

It's hard for someone if you, you
know, like, Oh, my horse won't let

anybody else do ABC, whatever it is.

And so we didn't like, go right
into it, but we would kind of work

our way into that and soon we would
be doing ABC that they had trouble

doing and no one else could do.

So you have to be really careful
how you talk to those people because

they feel like what was wrong
with me that I couldn't do it.

You know,

yeah,

Robyn Hood: exactly.

And we never wanted to
have anyone feel like that.

It is not our interest
in proving anything.

Nothing.

It's not our interest.

And so, I mean, I remember sometimes
I would have, I remember one big

guy that came on a, on a weekend.

I was teaching.

And he stood there with his arms
crossed and, you know, kind of

standing back, and then he, and then
he started asking me these questions,

and he started asking me the, like,
if I, looking at him, I was, you know,

thinking, oh, he's, you know, I'm not
sure where the question's coming from.

But I, I took from him that his
question was an honest question.

I just said, you know, like, and he said
to me after, it was an honest question.

I really wanted.

I really wanted to hear your answer.

And so he got super interested
and he trained a lot of horses.

He was with the RCMP and RCMP
ride and so on and so forth.

And he started to come, he came to some
clinics and he started to incorporate

some of the things that he did.

So the questions are,
I love the questions.

I think it's really good because
if there were no questions, there'd

be no answers and it's really the
questions like they can be intimidating

depending on how you take it.

So I would say in the beginning,
it was a bit of a challenge.

Although most of the animals that came to
us, they came to us because they hadn't

been able to do anything else with them.

So it was like, it's
the same with the dogs.

It was sort of like the last chance,
you know, and, and so it, it was, yeah.

You know, I guess it was tricky but,
and, and there would be, you know, of

course there's skeptics about, about
everything but it was just kind of

holding, holding that place that if
they were interested great if they

weren't, I'm not going to argue.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

I remember.

When the great German dressage rider
showing my age here Klaus Balkenholm.

Yeah

Rupert Isaacson: Started bringing Linda
over to Germany and he was, you know, the

top winning dressage Olympic Ex policeman.

Not a particularly sentimental
dude, I should imagine.

And yet, saw clearly
the value of this work.

Tell us a little bit about
that and how that evolved.

Because I think there will be people
who are listening here who are also

sport and performance riders and so on
and very much in that German tradition.

Why did he decide T
Touch was a good thing?

And how did you observe and how did he
observe that it, his performance horses?

Robyn Hood: Well, I wasn't there
with Linda at any time with him, but

what I, what I, you know, understand
and see, I think if people are

If they've done a lot with the horse,
because my understanding is one of his

horses, he'd spent a lot of time with him,
just time, and he would, as sentimental

or not, he would go in the stall, he would
just spend time with the horse, and the

horse wasn't responding, and then Linda
worked with him, and the horse made a

huge, like a huge response, and I don't
know what year that was, but I know

that in the In 1989, when you know, Dr.

Klimka did his last big event at the L.

A.

Equestrian Center.

Rupert Isaacson: That's Reiner
Klimka for those, those people

who were born in the last couple
decades and don't know who that was.

He was probably the best.

Robyn Hood: And of course his
daughter is Ingrid Klimka.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
his daughter's Ingrid.

Yeah.

Robyn Hood: Yeah.

And and he did.

So, so the scenario was he would take
there would be 12 riders to from through

training level through Grand Prix
to each to each and 2500 spectators.

Which is pretty intimidating to
ride, you know, in front of that

Rupert Isaacson: Germans too.

Yeah.

Robyn Hood: Yeah.

Well, this was in LA.

Okay.

So he was the last one that he did.

And Linda was invited because
Linda had met him Linda met

him before close Vulcan Hall.

And and I think, I think he was
an amazing man I mean in terms of.

Just in terms of how he interacted
with the horses and so on.

So anyway, she we did this.

So the night before it started, there
was a little, there was a demo with

some of the horses that were in it.

So Linda did this demo.

We helped.

There were, I don't know, 20
practitioners there and we worked on

the horses in between the lessons.

And so it was fascinating.

There was a horse that had lost his
Piaf, Grand Prix horse, but California

horse of the year, then lost the Piaf.

So, when Linda worked with him in the
demo, one of the things we noticed is

he was very sensitive on his belly.

And so she would take the wand, you
know, the stiff kind of dressage whip

and, and just stroke them all over.

And as.

She got to, he was known for putting
boots on him or anything he would like,

he would kick out with his hind legs.

So people had to be careful.

Now, here's the reality.

If that horse wanted to
hurt someone, he would.

He's

Robyn Hood: just saying, be
careful, careful, be careful.

And they, they were careful.

So anyway, I was asked to work with him
to do some body work with them in between.

I, this horse had, his sheath
was so dirty, like, and he had

to be, have a general anesthetic
to have his sheath cleaned.

General anesthetic.

So I started with him in the stall, and
he's the horse that probably taught me

the most about listening to whispers.

And I started with my hand running,
started just behind his ears, and just

really quietly running my hand across
his body, and whenever he would, and I

mean just, Move in here a bit, I would
pause and then I would go back to where

he did this ear or his mouth would
move and I, and I worked my way back.

And when I got to the belly,
I use the back of my hand.

First, I use the one, the same kind of
thing, and I would just pause and then

I took the back of my hand and I worked
along the belly and same, same deal.

I got to the sheath area.

I've never seen anything
like it in my life.

He probably had two inches of
hard shmegma inside the sheath.

Now tell me how you could do Piaf when
you had It was that, that uncomfortable.

Rupert Isaacson: Where do
you think that had come from?

And why was that in him
and not in other horses?

Well, that's a very good question.

Robyn Hood: Very good question.

I don't know, but I think there's
something systemically going on that

would create that amount of I don't
know what it was, but it was hard.

What was interesting is, when
I had listened to him And

this didn't take me very long.

In the first session, I worked with him
for, I don't know, less than an hour.

But people would walk by and they'd
go, Oh, have you tranquilized him?

Because he was standing there with
his head down, no halter on, just

like, like he was tranquilized.

I said, no, but I could work
on the outside of the sheet.

He actually wanted me, he
wanted contact, because it must

have been so uncomfortable.

So I used the backs of my
fingers and just did a bit.

And then I was able to get some,
this Excalibur, some softening.

It's a, you know, A product that softens
the inside and around the sheath area.

I was able to get it softened and
then I was able to get warm water.

I couldn't take anything off
because it's like having thick

scabs, but I could soften it.

And by the 3rd day he had pee off.

Interesting,

Robyn Hood: which was, I think was so
interesting, but it was fascinating

at this at this event because we,
of course, we're showing people

how to use the balance, right?

You know, it's like a second rain around
the base of the neck used as a second

rain to just steady the horse and made
a huge difference to some of the horses.

And we also put some body wraps
and promise wraps, which just went

around the back end of the horse.

And of course, at lunchtime at the L.

A.

Equestrian Center, the people that
boarded there, there were like, you know,

20 or 30 horses out there, you know,
trying it with their own horses, which

was great, you know, just to be able to
kind of offer that and, you know, Dr.

Clinton was such a gracious man.

And, you know, he said he'd never
seen so many changes in horses and

riders in such a short period of time.

And he really attributed it to Linda
coming in and the work that we did,

which he didn't need to do that.

He's just an amazingly
gracious gracious man.

So that was a It was interesting
because most of the people that were

there were, were either competitors
or really interested in the sport.

Certainly some kind of
kind of sport riders.

Now, Linda's also worked with
people like Anne Krasinski, who

was on the American jumping team.

And she did a demo with her at Wellington
in Florida and had all these people

standing around watching this horse
who was known for rushing fences Linda

worked with her, got her riding with
a neck ring, nothing else on, and

jumping four foot oxers, coming in
really balanced, jumping them, not

rushing after them, slowing down, and
it was, it was quite a shock for them.

So, if people see that there can be a
difference, then they become interested.

Now, can they always kind
of carry, carry on with it?

Because some things Require that we
as a human have to make some changes.

And, you know, there's only
one thing on this earth that we

have the potential to control.

And that's ourselves.

And when we change something,
something will change.

So I always say to people, if something
isn't working, I don't care what it

is, just change something a little
bit, or pause, or just take a moment.

But just that, that in itself can,
can make a huge difference, makes a

difference between how a horse reacts,
how a dog reacts, how a person reacts.

Rupert Isaacson: is writing this down.

If something isn't
working, change something.

Robyn Hood: And it's so obvious.

It's just that we get so stuck in
our, you know, we get so stuck in our

habits because they're so easy to do.

Rupert Isaacson: The devil we know.

And neural pathways that You know, and
it doesn't matter that was it Einstein

who said, you know, Insanity is doing
the same thing and expecting over and

Robyn Hood: over and
expecting a different result.

Rupert Isaacson: But it's
also natural human behavior.

And I think one has got to
have a bit of compassion for

oneself and for people this way.

I know when we're Teaching people our
methods and so on so much of it is

counterintuitive And I think writers
don't get enough credit for this The

entire process of doing anything with
a horse is counterintuitive both for

the monkey and for the pony You know,
we are their predator in the wild So

their instinct is not to let us any
certainly not within bow shot or spear

chucking yet they will and They're not
designed to take us on their backs.

They will.

We're not designed to balance up there.

We're top heavy, big shoulders,
you know, heavy head, wobbling

around on that moving barrel.

Yet, we do.

And if you, you know, when we
feel anxious or even unfamiliar

with something, we crouch.

We go into a A sort of a sympathetic
nervous system crouch where we can

protect our organs, throw a punch and
run away all in the same movement.

We can't do that on a horse, so
we'll fall out the front door.

And then of course, we're monkeys, so we
want opposable thumbs, so we want to solve

things with our hands and cling on tight
to things, and we can't do that either.

So the very fact that any of it can
work at all, I'm always intrigued given

that it Both the horse and the human
have to go against instinct so much.

And we're also angry, you know,
we're angry chimpanzees and

we've got to control that too.

It's, it's, it's, it's a miracle
it can happen and yet it does.

So I think that people like you and
Linda coming along and Helping to

make that process more joyful, to
me, is really the epitome of what

equine assisted means, because in this
day and age, we don't need horses.

Some cowboys do.

I would argue that with the therapeutic
work that we do, actually that is

optimised by the movement of the horse,
so okay, maybe that's a necessary job

for a horse, but we certainly don't
need them for transport anymore.

Luckily we don't need them for war.

So the reason why do we have horses?

We have horses.

They make us feel good.

Why do we feel good around horses?

And then sometimes we do things
or have experience with horses

that get in the way of that joy.

And then we can end up

thrashing away at that neural pathway.

The very thing that we were hoping
would make us so joyful, that we were so

attracted to as a child, the beauty, the
freedom, the power, the romance, the dream

like quality of horses, and then suddenly
there we are in a cage, being screamed

at, you know, by another monkey, you
know, being told, wrong, wrong, you know.

So you guys make it better.

You open that door to
joy, and I've seen it.

I've seen it working.

And I felt it in my own body.

I've had Linda put her hands on me and
gone, Oh my gosh, this is extraordinary.

If somebody is running a program, and,
you know, equine assisted programs

are often Staff, the equines in those
programs are often donated horses.

Donated horses are usually
donated for a reason.

They're usually messed up.

They've, they've, they've
been broken to some degree.

And they're, they may be working
the program because they're quiet.

One frequently sees unhappy horses,
stiff horses, horses clearly in pain.

And of course, how are these horses
supposed to transmit well being

when they themselves don't have it?

If you were to give advice To somebody
who was going into this field and getting

their horses from these disparate sources.

What would be your main go tos and piece
of advice that, you know, you're in the

pub, someone says, Hey, Robin, I'm gonna
start this thing and I'm gonna start

working with autistic kids, or I'm gonna
start working with veterans, or I'm gonna

start working with people with trauma.

And yeah, I've got the, you
know, some therapy, some

donation horses are coming in.

You probably in your mind would go, Ooh,
yeah, I can kind of picture what some

of these horses will be coming in with.

What would your go to one, two,
three, to be sure to look out for

and to be sure to do and to be
sure to not do be to that person?

Robyn Hood: Good, good question.

I the first thing that That that I do when
I kind of see a horse that somebody asked

me to look at the horse, whatever it is.

And I, I kind of get a sense of, first
of all, what their overall response

is for just when humans are near them.

And that doesn't mean that I can't.

influence how they feel about humans.

Because there are, there are some horses
that once you then, because then I,

I would see if I could put my hands
on, start with the back of the hand,

where can you actually make contact?

What's the horse's
response to that contact?

So that I can That I can, I guess
it depends on also what they're

going to be using the horses for,
you know, like, are they expected?

Are they, are they for riding?

Because not all horses are in the, in
the, you know, equine assisted therapy.

They're not all for riding.

So that would be one thing that I would
what I would, you know, kind of look at.

And then also, the thing is, when we do
TTouch on horses, We have so frequently

been able to make pretty dramatic
changes in, especially in their, and

I want to say, I don't, attitude.

It's not really that it's their attitude.

It's their experience, their
prior experience with humans.

And when you change that, that experience,
because you treat them in a different way.

It, it changes them because, you
know, we get horses on our farm.

Now, mostly we board horses, but even
when I have horses that come up here for

clinics and they have, you know, people
will say they do this, this and this.

You hardly ever do it here
because we have a different energy

about the attitude that we have.

About the horses and what
we expect them to do.

So, I mean, I would encourage anybody
to learn even basics of tea touch so

that they can go over the horse and
have the horse learn, learn from the

horse, you know, that they'll let the
horse know they'll listen to them.

I think that's it is absolutely
really is really critical.

And, and of course, I mean, obviously, do
you ride most of your horses with saddles?

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

I'm not averse to riding bareback.

But in general, we would
ride it with a saddle.

Yeah.

Robyn Hood: No, no, I just, because
I mean, I think that's the other

huge challenge is finding saddles
that are going to be functioning

well for the horse and, and for the
riders, because it's not just enough

that it's for the, for the horse.

So, I mean, there's a lot of
things that have to go in, into it.

I, I also would ask them, what's the
lifestyle going to be for this horse?

You know, what, you know, are,
do they, are they going to have

friends if they have friends?

Do they have enough space to have friends?

You know, like that, because that
can be having friend, frenemies can

be worse if you don't have enough
space to get away from them, you

know, that, that sort of thing.

So it's not really I can't say that I have
enough experience with looking for horses,

but I, I would be looking for horses
that I would call functionally sound.

That's to me because none of us are
necessarily a hundred percent sound,

but it does depend on what you're going
to do with them and how you're going to

ask them and what you're going to do.

And I had a little bit of a theory about,

you know, about this concept of us
because a lot of writers period,

whether they're able bodied or
not, are not very well balanced.

Now, if you have a course
I'm going to say that about

Rupert Isaacson: myself, honestly.

Robyn Hood: Yeah, for sure.

If you have a horse that always has
to carry the same rider with the

same, with their same imbalances and
doing things exactly the same way.

Is it possible that it can be actually
a little bit easier for horses that

carry different riders that maybe have
slightly different imbalances, so it's

not constantly being created the same
one because I see some less than horses.

And as you were saying earlier,
there are horses that kind of go

along and kind of do their job.

And and they're, you know,
they're pretty happy about it,

depending on the rider and so on.

And I wonder, though, if
that isn't for in some cases.

if it doesn't balance out their body a
little bit easier than having the same,

same old, same old rider who does things.

I don't know.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, so I think,
I think, I think what you put your

finger on there is the difference
in chronic repetitive and novel.

Yeah, we, we encourage people to do
as much in hand work as possible, long

reigning as possible, that sort of thing.

And incorporate that into the sessions
because otherwise you'll never have

time to do it, you know, just build that
back as much as you can so that it has a

sporting chance of carrying some weight,
you know, but it's, it's interesting

how this type of thing is not normally.

Part of the conversation
around therapeutic stuff.

It's usually all about how you
serve the person, which of course is

vitally important But it leaves out
if the horse hasn't got well being.

Well, how how how are you going to track?

So your point too about
how is the horse living?

I think is also a very good one.

Is there enough space that if
they are living socially it's

functional not dysfunctional?

Because of course now keeping horses
in boxes has gotten a bad name.

And I go around so many different
stables and I see horses living in every

possible way from having half of the
state of Wyoming as their, you know,

thing, or probably, you know, Alberta
to, for example, we've got a project

with Horseboy in the middle of Dublin,
like in the middle of the city, and

no, the horses have to be in boxes.

Now, it's mitigated by the fact that
they get a lot of free movement in

the arena, and they get regularly
rotated out to fields in County Meath.

So, you know, people are, you know,
they're approaching it rationally and

they're approaching it compassionately.

But I don't think those horses are
unhappy at all, because the way

they're engaged and the way that
they're worked is Sympathetic.

And I've seen horses that are
kept in rather naturalistic

environments be quite depressed.

So it's interesting I've realized that
there's no hard and fast rules about

these things It's so much of it seems
to be and you were talking about patting

horses, you know, do they like it?

Do they hate it?

Well, I think so much of it is about
the intention behind it You know, if

you hug someone and they pat you on the
back that can feel immensely supportive.

It can feel also absolutely awful
depending on how they pat you and

what the intention is behind the pat.

So I think one of the things
I love about your work.

is that the intention is paramount.

You know, I've, I've, I've heard Linda say
it so often, put your heart in your hands

and then put your hands on the horse.

And of course, that could
be with a person too.

And I remember the first time I heard
her say that, I went, Oh, of course.

But Do I do that?

And then as soon as I started
consciously doing that, I heard

her say that at Equitano once.

I was like, Oh my gosh,
it made such a difference.

And then another thing which I
heard from T Touch was Instead of

trying to make your horse feel safe,

or project safety, just
project the thought, I.

I'm safety.

I am safe.

I am safety and see what that does yours.

And I started doing it and
horses just started coming

and standing right next to me.

So it's so interesting how you
guys have, you know, there's great

complexity to your work once you
begin and subtlety to your work.

And we started this conversation
with Feldenkrais and so on and the

multiple, multiple different ways
in which you can touch and feeling

out and listening to the horse.

And yet at the same time, you don't make
it so Vague and impossible to follow

there are no steps and you you you you
do actually narrow it down to certain

ways to touch that Any of us can do or
certain intentions that we can put into

our bodies That are going to transfer
that emotion to the horse and it works.

It works.

It works So if people wanted to
learn more, how do they do it?

How do they get in touch with you and then
if they want to become say a practitioner?

What's the process by
which they'd have to go?

Robyn Hood: We, because of COVID,
like, you know, before COVID,

I, I traveled five months of the
year for pretty much 30 years.

And I loved it, and I didn't think
that I had any other choice, you

know, you do what you do, right?

And then COVID hit, and so I had time
to put things online, because I wanted

to for years, but I just didn't, I
was never home long enough to do it.

And we have a platform called learn.

ttouch.

ca And on that Learn.

ttouch.

ca.

And we have on it, we have some
free like little mini module courses

too that like one for horses and a
couple for dogs and one for cats.

So people can just like register
and they don't pay anything.

They get that, they get that
module and kind of takes you

through the, the aspects of it.

Now we have.

We also then have courses that
are on very like specific things.

I have a body wrapping, self paced
course and intro to T Touch and so on.

And then we have these,
the core elements course.

If people want to be practitioners
or go deeper into it, I started

doing them for the last almost year
is immersion courses where I take

people over Six months actually.

And they, so they, they have lifetime
access to the online, which has many,

many hours of the topics broken into
pieces and video and PowerPoint and so on.

And then in the immersion
classes, I add more information.

Plus we discuss things and
go into the detail and.

It's actually worked
it's worked really well.

We have a, we have a practitioner in
India, the first practitioner in India.

She did it all online and she
presented actually at our celebration.

The changes the healing that she's had
from dogs and cats in India, and she

has a kind of a private rescue and she
works with lots of different rescues.

Phenomenal.

I mean, animals that were
given no hope and and and some

of them like in one session.

And as she said, you know, no one
was more surprised than than I was.

And again, you know, as I
said before, I've done this.

I've done this now for over 40 years and.

I'm still surprised when it works.

And so is Linda.

And I love that because I would hate
to do something that you felt so,

oh, you do this because you can't
know, we know that there'll be a

change, but we don't know what.

And that's the, you know,
the part of looking for it.

So there's a lot that can be done online.

I'm, I'm going to Linda's going to be.

Not sure how much she'll
be in Europe this year.

She'll be in Ewa.

I'm coming for a few days for Ewa, just to

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, you well, great.

We'll meet then.

'cause we'll be there.

Yeah,

Robyn Hood: yeah, yeah.

I, I'll be there for the last
three days to be at the party, the

50th anniversary party and so on.

Rupert Isaacson: 50

years.

Gosh.

Wow.

Robyn Hood: I know.

It's, it's, it's just,
it's just remarkable.

And you know, I just have to
say, I mean, my sister, there's

nobody that is as she's just.

She cares a lot and she's
just so open to to to people.

She'll do a lot for people and I, you
know, she's really very, very remarkable.

And then I'll be in England
doing something with horses and

dogs in April in France in April
as well, doing a few things.

And then in Holland.

Just doing the work with dogs in Holland.

So ideally, and we do have
practitioners in different countries,

too, that are doing workshops.

So, so because we don't do so many in
person things, my concept of this online

is that if people can also go to workshops
with people who are You know, who are

qualified practitioners and get the hands
on portion, because what they have to

do is demonstrate to us through video
or in person or whatever a competency

that,

Robyn Hood: you know, that
that's, that's the thing.

And I mean, the beauty of this is that.

Even if you know a little bit you can
that you can really help and the more

you know in some ways the less you
teach I mean because you try to pare it

down to what might be the most helpful
for that person in in that moment.

Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody wanted
to go down the route or serve learning to

become a practitioner and or eventually
trainer, it all starts with learn dot.

Yeah,

Robyn Hood: or going to if you,
if you have the availability of

going to a workshop with someone,
of course, that can be your first.

Rupert Isaacson: But would you find
those workshops on that website?

Robyn Hood: The website, the website
that you're going to find the

international ones on is, is ttouch.

com.

Rupert Isaacson: ttouch.

com.

Okay.

So if I'm sitting in.

London or Dubai or Rio de Janeiro.

And I want to see if there's a
trainer or practitioner near me

that I can go to a live course with.

That will be ttouch.

com.

Robyn Hood: Yeah, that'll, that'll
give you, there are some, like the

German ones aren't on because they're,
they have their own guild site.

There are, I don't know the names
of all the websites of the specific

countries, like Germany has, has,
A lot of practitioners, Austria.

Just trying to think of what countries
have active websites right now?

Switzerland, probably the uk South Africa.

Would there

Rupert Isaacson: be links
to those sites on T Touch,

Robyn Hood: yes.

On t touch.com,

there are links to the international Okay.

Perfect Sites.

And if they don't see something
on like the site or a pro or

a listing or whatever, if they
go to one of those, that's.

The best the best response.

I, of

Rupert Isaacson: course,
found the German one.

It's ttouch.

de.

Yeah, there

Robyn Hood: you go.

There you go.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Which, by the way,
immediately translated to English.

Robyn Hood: Yeah, no, it's a
good, it's a really good website.

Rupert Isaacson: But if,
if people know that ttouch.

com is the sort of central hub, and
then they could find some links to

what's relevant to their country there.

Yeah.

But if they want to
learn online, it's learn.

Dot t

Robyn Hood: touch dot c a.

And actually the a lot of the
online courses if they're if

they're with zoom attachments like
with zoom classes will also be on

the t touch dot com events page.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, well,
luckily for us, my wife is heading

down the practitioner path.

Robyn Hood: Yes, she is.

Our

Rupert Isaacson: horses benefit massively.

And I couldn't support it more.

I think that.

I know that, I see that, what
you guys do is not only something

that's special to you and Linda,
but it's highly transferable.

I've seen lots of people learn
it and get amazing outcomes with

their animals and with each other.

Robyn Hood: And, you know, I think that's
the, the thing Linda's always been.

I mean, the whole thing we've been so
open to what we want to share the work.

If you're interested, we're,
we're happy to teach you.

We're not going to, we're not going to
try to make, we're not going to try to

convince someone that they, that they need
to learn it, but we're absolutely there.

And it doesn't matter if Linda can
do it, or if I can do it, or if other

teachers, the aim of it is to teach
the average person to be able to do

it with their own animal, because it
really, you know, we can't, you We can't

have every animal, so it makes sense
that we can teach people how to do it.

That, that's really, that's the deal.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely,
you know, it's, it, I think

the other thing which is so

immediately apparent when one
goes to a T Touch event is the

loving quality of the community.

And you know, with us, with
Horseboy, it's quite similar.

It's an international community of
people that really support each other

and really like each other and go out
of their way to try and help each other.

And I've really seen that
with the T Touch community.

It's, I think the sort of person
who's attracted to it is always.

Connected, caring human.

So when you get a bunch of them
together, it's a very nice place to be.

I'm looking forward to Ecuador 2020.

We saw

Robyn Hood: that at the celebration.

We had some, we had a number
of people that were pretty new.

I don't even know how they got there,
but they, they were just struck by

the welcoming part of this kind of
this, you know, family community.

And It's so much fun to just meet new
people and, and and have them, you know,

just become engaged in the work, but
they, you know, they have to have a, they

have to have interest, you know, it's
like there's a, there's, there's a reason

that, you know, that things that things
happen, that things happen as they do.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

And you know, in the world of
factionalism and rivalry that can

so often typify the horse world.

It's such a breath of fresh air to come
across people like you, so hats off.

Robyn Hood: Thank you.

Thank you.

I mean, it's fun.

I wouldn't do it if it's fun.

It's like we had a great keynote
speaker that she's that spent a year

with me before she went into vet school
and and she said her theory is this.

If it's not fun, don't do it.

And if you have to do it, make it fun.

And I'm writing that

Rupert Isaacson: one down too.

If it's not fun, don't do it.

And if it's not fun.

Robyn Hood: No, if you have to do it.

Rupert Isaacson: And if you have to do it.

Robyn Hood: Yeah.

Thank you.

And if you have

Rupert Isaacson: to do it.

Make it

fun.

Lovely words to live by.

Robyn Hood: They, yeah, they are.

She gave such a great presentations
and you know, about working with

senior, do you know, senior animals?

And she had just such she was fun.

It was a great, great presentation and
it was, we just had, we had a lot of fun.

A lot of fun.

At the, at the subway.

Rupert Isaacson: Who was that?

Who was that speaker?

Robyn Hood: Her name is Stephanie Cote.

C-O-T-E-C.

Rupert Isaacson: Cote as
in the, like in the French?

Robyn Hood: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
we'll, we'll look up.

Sounds like someone I
should have on the show.

Robyn Hood: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

She's amazing.

Stephanie with a

Rupert Isaacson: PH, I'm writing it down.

Yeah,

Robyn Hood: PH.

Stephanie with a PH.

I can, I can

Rupert Isaacson: get

Robyn Hood: you her email if you like.

You

Rupert Isaacson: do.

That would be grand.

Robyn Hood: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Robin, it's been an honor.

Thank you so much for coming
on and giving us wisdom.

Robyn Hood: My

Rupert Isaacson: pleasure.

My pleasure.

It

Robyn Hood: was so nice to meet you, and
I look forward to seeing you in Germany.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of

Equine Assisted Stuff out there.

And if you're interested in more
conversations, you might want to check

out I'll live free ride free podcast.

And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.

com and click on the Patreon link.

If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career

in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three

certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.

Equine integration.

You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.

And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed

merch back on rupert isaacson.com,

please click on Shop.

You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.

And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might

want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the

Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

world.

Join us for the adventure.