Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show.

In the following podcast, I had a long
chat with my dear friend, Joel Dunlap

of Square Peg Foundation in California.

For those of you who don't know
this amazing person, Joelle, um,

about 15 years ago, she founded.

An organization dedicated to the people
that don't fit into mainstream society

and how to help them learn skills
and learn to thrive using horses.

She was really one of the first
people to pioneer this work.

Now she works in the fields of
autism, trauma, neuropsych, other

types of mental health, and she has
two facilities, one in half Moon

Bay, just south of San Francisco.

And one in Sonoma, just east of San
Francisco in the wine country, and

she works all over the world and
educates people all over the world.

In this amazing work, she
combines neuroscience with really

good classical horse training.

She provides, employment for people
with neuropsychiatric , conditions,

and she provides basically happiness
and joy and the tools to thrive.

So without further ado, let's find
out how Joel Dunlap does this.

Joell Dunlap: Welcome to
Equine Assisted World.

This is the first one, really?

Ah, yeah.

Cool.

Yeah, I have been wanting to
do this for the longest time

and um, that's why I'm excited.

Um, for about the last four or five years,
I've just, I think along with everyone

else who's working in the field, has
watched it suddenly go from a rather

tight, , perhaps overregulated perhaps.

Somewhat limited, uh, field and,
and a rather factional field to

suddenly a really wide open field.

And I think what I and many like us
have noticed is that a lot of people

who were quietly working away for more
than years, I'd say decades, um, their.

Has now proved itself and people
are now doing studies into them.

It's reaching academia and so
much of what was on the hippie

margins has now in about the last
five years come to the mainstream.

But it's still a somewhat confusing
world in that, well, there seems

to be the equine-assisted thing.

There seems to be the, , neuropsych thing.

There seems to be the, , physical
disabilities thing and.

many others.

And these seem to be existing still to
some degree in their own, , galaxies.

, but there are a growing number of people
out there who see the bigger picture.

Mm-hmm.

. And, , as we are realizing now, so
many people have multiple diagnoses.

So many people, , they might have
something physical, but they've got

something neuropsychological going on.

They could have trauma
and something physical.

Perhaps they've come back from
a war zone and they're injured.

They could have many multiple layers
to a lesser or greater degree.

And, , suddenly the, the technologies
available seem to me to be

rising, to meet this challenge.

And I would say that of the people
that I have been watching over

the past, more than a decade, , be
just consistently effective.

Would be Joelle Dunlap of Square
Peg Foundation in California.

So Joelle, I've got you
finally in front of me.

I'm sitting in Germany,
you're sitting there.

Um, I want you to tell us who you are
and what you do, and then I want to ask

you a bunch of questions so that the
listeners can get an insight into the

multifaceted world that you work in.

and perhaps get some ideas about how
they might explore this world as well.

So who are you, Joel ? Uh, I
am the co-founder and executive

director of Square Peg Foundation.

We started in 2004, um, and we called
it Square Peg because we wanted to.

, we saw a real gap between people
who wouldn't thrive in a traditional

writing environment and people who
also weren't going to fit in, um,

in what, at the time, in 2004, was
a therapeutic writing environment.

And, um, we, we saw a, a.

A bunch of people, um, who weren't gonna
be served well in either environment.

Um, and of course what found
us in that space is autism, um,

over and over and over again.

Um, but our first partner when we started
Square Peg was a family homeless shelter

in San Francisco, in the Tenderloin,
in the roughest part of the city.

And they had a really beautiful.

Way of looking at the homeless issue.

Um, that they wanted to create an
environment of family rituals and joy

and an experience through the eyes
of the child so that the recidivism

in autism, or sorry, in, in, in
homelessness, um, wasn't repeated

generation after generation after generat.

and that mentorship was so timely and
so helpful to us because it helped us

understand the importance of environment,
um, and the importance of changing

the way somebody saw themselves.

Um, and that was, that is a program called
Raphael House Family Homeless Shelter.

And when you think of a
homeless shelter, you don.

Think of hopefulness and you
don't think of sweetness.

, and here's a place where the
children, , they all, , read a bedtime

story and then lit a candle and
then sang their ways back to their

rooms to go to bed and create these
rituals, , of safety and of sweetness.

we learned a lot from them.

So, , so here we are in 2023.

In 2018, um, we opened up our
first satellite organization.

So here we are.

We'd been operating for 16 years
and, , loved what we were doing.

, Didn't know how it would scale.

You know, this is Silicon Valley
and everybody wants to talk

about scalability of operations.

, , and we didn't plan it this way, the story
that I'll share because I think it's,

it's interesting just in talking about.

How things grow naturally.

, we had a woman working for us, Becca Knff.

Um, very, very, very, very talented.

And , if I had a nickel, if you had
a nickel for every resume of every

college girl coming out of college
who says, you know, I wanna work for

a horse boy foundation, or I wanna
work for square peg, , we could

probably buy a pretty fancy latte

But Becca sent that resume and
showed up for her first day to

volunteer, and within an hour she was
wearing a tutu and was back riding.

Um, and , we thought,
okay, we have a keeper.

, so Becca also wanted to
pursue, , excellence in being, , a

competition dressage writer.

So she worked for us.

four days a week, and then she
commuted an hour and a half north,

um, up to Sonoma to ride with
a, , a Grand Prix dressage trainer.

, a couple, well, actually
three days a week.

She was working seven days a week.

And, , this woman was a, was a, a mentor
to her personally and professionally.

And, , that woman, , Susan Palmer.

Went from diagnosis to gone from
breast cancer in four months

for very brutal short months.

, and it was devastating Rebecca, , and
for, , her barn community, , and

certainly for her family.

And so her widower came to Becca and said,
look, , I need you to take over the barn.

I need you to.

Run the barn for me.

So she came to us crying and said, you
know, I need to honor Susan and I need

to quit working for Cor Peg and I need
to go and run Cadence Farm up in Sonoma.

And we gave her our blessing and hugs
and a going away party and off she went.

And, , about six weeks later, she called
me and said, , can we have dinner?

And I said, well, of course.

So she drives an hour and a half south
and we order dinner and she starts crying.

She says, I don't wanna
run a massage barn.

And I said, well, what do you wanna do?

She said, I, I won't square peg.

I need square peg in my life.

And I said, well, and this is a
very Rupert esque, um, answer.

I said, well, let's just turn
Cadence Farm into a Scorp satellite.

and she said, can we do that?

I said, I have no idea, but I have
this napkin under my glass of wine and

I'm sure someone will lend us a pen.

And we started penciling out or
panning out how it would work.

And that's, that's, that's how our,
our satellite operation, , opened.

So we did prove that we could scale
it and we did prove that we could

grow and that we could go into a new
community and get the trust of the autism

community there and, and start services.

So, so, well, you've just said some
things which, , for a lot of people

in the, uh, equine therapy world would
seem to be completely dissonant things.

You said you've, in this last couple
of minutes, you've said homelessness,

you've said, but family rituals
of joy, safety, and sweetness.

You've said autism, you've said
Grand Prix, dressage, . How do

all these things come together?

, pretty naturally, right?

, talk us through it.

Well, I think the important thing is,
is, is joy and curiosity and exploration.

Um, the best of dressage
is just that, right?

It's, it's partnership and
it's, and it's joyfulness.

And if it's not joyfulness, you
certainly see it and you feel it.

and that connection that we seek with
the horse when we seek, , excellence

in, in horsemanship is always going
to be about, about joy and curiosity

and communication and ritual, right?

Horses, they love a good ritual.

they love to know what's coming.

That's true.

They love that predictability
and you certainly learn that

in, in the autism world.

If you can, if you can create.

a joyful place, but that it's
so unpredictable sometimes

that's destabilizing.

and so bringing it back to beautiful
ritual, , that, that feels like

home, that feels like safety.

Um, it all, it all fits in now for many
people, , in the horse world, , who

look at dressage a little bit of.

They equate it with the word dressage.

, it's never good enough, you know,
it's a bit snooty and so on.

How does dressage and autism
slash special needs slash equine

assisted work come together?

What's the connection?

The first thing that comes
to mind is rhythm, right?

If we look at the training scale,
rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm,

we are, we're born to a rhythm.

The music that we listen to is,
you know, is directly connected to.

Heart rate.

A heart rate of when we feel
good, a heart rate of when we feel

excited, um, and also our, our gait.

, we love rhythm.

We are creatures of rhythm
and , and horses as well.

When they feel good,
our creatures of rhythm.

When we are rhythmically moving
again, we're creating that.

That, that joy and that predictability,
you know, um, you don't have to be a

musician to be able to find the one.

Right.

The one is home in rhythm.

And, , I think, you know what I'm seeing
in dressage lately, and even in jumping.

is, um, people understanding rhythm and
understanding biomechanics so much more.

They're understanding that when a horse is
compressed in his neck and he's compressed

in his back, that it is dressage, right?

And we feel it and we see it.

Um, and, and the rhythm is the first
thing that goes out the window.

So when, um, gosh, I, I, I can
get lost in the woods on this.

Just trying to come back, lead us
into the woods originally, lead us

into, no, lead us into the woods.

I love it.

So, , you know, finding, , finding
that regulating rhythm, it feels good.

And, and why does the rhythm feel good?

Let me nail you on that one.

So let's, so we're assuming that we've
got a horse that's not stress, that

we've got a horse that's relaxed.

And I'm gonna ask you how you achieve
this, um, in a moment, but, , how

does this rhythm beyond a certain
predictability, um, do good to a human?

The other night my husband and I
went out to go see live music for

the first time in a long time.

, between, just the habits that we all
built during the, the Covid shutdowns

and, and, and the fear of being in groups.

And, and we saw the Blind Boys of
Alabama, um, which are three old men

singing spiritual music with a, with a,
with a, with a a, a, a funky backbeat.

and it had been so long since I'd
seen music with a group and you

realize that everybody's breathing
and their foot tapping and their

head bobbing had all synced up.

and you think about any healing tradition,
any tribal tradition, it's all based

around being in a circle and sinking up in
rhythm, generally through song and dance

and drumming and whatever that takes.

And that's the best of who we are.

So why wouldn't we seek that?

For anybody who's feeling dysregulated,
why wouldn't we go there first?

. And is that what you're trying
to achieve with the horses?

And if so, how are you doing it?

Um, well that's, that's the ideal, right?

How are you getting the softness?

Like what?

Talk me through it.

Well, the softness, , there has to be some
trust between the horse and the person.

And, , we we're all now learning, , how
quick horses are to size this up of

whether or not we're we're trustworth.

. , and, so ideally, the person working
with the horse, the horse knows well, but

that's not always, uh, totally possible.

, and spending a lot of time, whether
you wanna call it training or working

with the horse and seeking that
rhythm and, praising for that rhythm.

and how are you doing that?

Are you doing that from the saddle or
are you doing that from the ground?

We spend a lot of time on the ground.

we spend a lot of time, and I'm
sure we'll get into this, but you

know, it was, it was through you
and IA that we were introduced

to the work of the Lenzo family.

and they moved us so far forward in
the, in the, the, the in-hand work.

it so much can be accomplished from
the ground and, and working on the

ground will make you a better writer.

And there's, there's, if I could, if I
could bring one message, to the equine

group, , I'd like that to be known.

What you can do on the lunge, what
you can do from the ground, and

giving the horse that visual feedback.

They're not as visual
as we think they are.

, but they're, they're still quite visual.

And when we're on the horse, when
we're riding, they don't get that, that

visual, feedback that they're gonna get
if we have someone on the ground, whether

it's lunging or, or doing in-hand work.

Um, so you just, you mentioned the
vales there, you mentioned in-hand work.

and I was gonna get to mentors
in a minute, and you, you, you

talk about who your mentors, you.

So you've talked about Rafael House.

Mm-hmm.

you also, mentioned now the ERs who,
for those people who are listening, the,

the ER family in Portugal, Luis Valer
is probably, is regarded, I would say,

perhaps, I think you'd agree with this.

as probably the greatest living
exponent of classical i Barack

dressage probably alive on the planet.

currently, it seems that there's
a, a consensus among, among the

dressage community about this.

and I know him, obviously you do too.

And he, one of the things that
comes across is he his humanity.

But of course, he doesn't really travel
outside of Portugal much to teach.

So when you say the Lenza
family, can you talk us through?

Who from that family has been
training you and your team?

How have they been training you
and how has that made a difference?

Mm gosh.

Uh, so Luis has three daughters,
the youngest daughter,

Sophia, travels extensively.

I think she's in New Zealand as we speak.

I think she teaches in at least four
and maybe five different languages.

I think she can teach in Polish as well.

Which is just amazing.

Um, and, uh, and then the and
then her, her traveling partner

and co-train, uh, Gonzalo Leche.

Um, the two of them, uh,
have been coming out.

I think the first time I met them
was at your place in Elgan and.

I'm so bad at timelines.

That was probably what,
eight, nine years ago?

It was the police do scene, I think.

I think when Ma, I think so.

still bellowed to Macedon
across the AL'S swamps.

True.

I think it was.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And you a little bit.

Very nice Mastodon to ride.

I appreciate that.

Yes.

The mastodons have a
beautiful sense of rhythm.

Really, really, really rhythmic.

It's a shame you're not around anymore.

It is.

It's , so, um, and then, I think
it was, 2018, I was able to go to

Portugal and spend a week, um, at
the Vales and, and, and we had two

days of terrible, terrible, terrible.

Rain and windstorms, that were so bad.

Even in their, their covered
school, there was water running

down the hill and rushing.

and, and here's, you know, master
Lenzo with a, a giant push broom

and trying to, to, you know, move
the water and it didn't work.

And so, you know, in true Portuguese
tradition, we all just went back

to the house and ate lunch for
hours and hours and hours, and,

which they were gonna do anyway.

But, he was gracious enough to let me
interview him for about three hours,

uh, until all of the batteries ran out.

Um, and just spending that
intimate time with him.

, the first question I asked him, just
as kind of a warmup was, you know,

what did you have for breakfast?

And he spins it into this philosophical,
beautiful treatise on, on, on Boche.

Um, What a, what a joy.

. Right.

So, , yeah, that mentorship
has been, uh, such a gift.

What would you say it's done, you said
in terms of providing rhythm and softness

and a wellbeing through that mm-hmm.

, uh, through for the, for your,
the, the people that you serve.

Mm-hmm.

, what would you say
started for your horses?

Mm.

Well, and we haven't even touched on, on,
um, Joel's particular, Brand of insanity.

Um, oh, we're going.

Believe me, , people need to
know your particular brand of

insanity because they will go wtf.

And I'll go.

Yeah.

Yes.

So yeah.

What, let, we'll go to
the insanity in a minute.

What's it done for this insane crew?

Uh,

they're sweet.

They're sweet, sweet, sweet and soft.

Um, and these are horses that
generally come in with not just

tension, but , some gnarly injuries,
bone on bone injuries, um, muscle

imbalances, , from their, their, their
field of expertise and what they've

been bred for hundreds of years to do.

They just get soft, um, soft in
the body, soft in the brain, in

the, not like me, soft in the
brain, but , you know what I mean?

Soft in the Yeah.

I'm just taking a hole for myself.

But the softness,
emotional as well as Yeah.

Um, absolutely.

Okay.

Absolutely.

Do you have any speculation on why
that might be, uh, what's going on

with this in-hand work that creates.

There's a lot of balancing in the body.

There's a lot of, , finding, , horses
in, in, in a natural setting will

not very often, um, cross their
legs over the midline, um, unless

they're particularly scared.

Um, . But very often we find that
when a horse with his hind leg steps

underneath his center of gravity with
one hind leg and moves and bends in his

body, he starts steepening his breath.

He starts to lengthen
the outside of his body.

He gets softer on the inside.

Um, and then when we consistently
reward that, he starts to seek

it not just for his own self, but
he seeks it in, in pleasing you

and you being part of that herd.

Um, I'm never.

Ever seen anything.

You know, it used to be that you would
just put a horse on the end of a lunch

line and run them until they're tired
and then you know, he'll figure it

out, which does work to an extent,
and it worked for me for a long time.

But to change that into the horse
feeling at home in his body and knowing

where all his feet are and, and, and.

Softening through his back before we
put a rider on softening through his

job before anybody's holding a bit.

Um, they just get sweet and
that's the word that just keeps

coming up so sweet from insane.

Why are these horses coming insane?

Where are they coming from?

These horses that come.

They're racehorse.

Oh yeah.

So they're bred to be fast and
there's nothing faster for, you know,

a mild of five miles than a third.

So you are putting mm-hmm.

autistic people.

Mm-hmm.

on off the track.

Thoroughbreds.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Okay.

Now, some people would
say that's dangerous.

Some people would say mm-hmm.

, oh, you can't do that.

Mm-hmm.

, , you shouldn't do that.

, How can this work?

Why is it working?

Because it clearly is working cuz
you've been around for 16 years,

you've got another satellite here.

Um, I know that you are now, um,
under the San Mate Mateo County,

, medical and mental health thing,
which we're gonna go to in a minute.

Mm-hmm.

so clearly, clearly, clearly,
you're getting results.

, how can this be?

Why isn't it dangerous?

Because a lot, all the naysayers are gonna
say, that's not something you should do.

You shouldn't match up.

Mm-hmm.

, thoroughbreds like that.

Mm-hmm.

this possible population.

So talk us through how it works.

One of the things about a thoroughbred is
that he is born with humans in his life.

Um, Some of the borough courses,
, are not handled until they're

three, four or five years old.

a racehorse is , he's
handled at conception.

, the rule is you cannot artificially
inseminate for a racehorse.

It has to be a live cover and it
has to be witnessed and certified.

So humans are there from that
moment of, of conception.

Um, and so.

and, and the good ones.

and good farms.

Um, the people handling the horses
are experienced horse people, so

a lot of them come quite trusting.

Um, I don't think they would run
if they didn't trust, um, because

we ask them for everything and
sometimes it costs them everything.

. , so that's one thing.

You don't have to teach a thoroughbred
to want to please or trust humans, um,

because they, they, they come that way.

They've also seen a lot of
things at the track, right?

Bicycles are not new to them.

Big tractors are not new to them.

Um, so they do, you know, a four
year old horse coming off the track

has seen a lot of human things.

And a lot of different
locations, I suppose.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Different environment.

He's, he's, he's hauled in vans.

He's been to sales.

Um, which isn't to say that that
isn't traumatic or stressful, um,

but he has been there, done that.

And the fact that he's standing
in your yard means that he's

survived it on some level.

Um, you know, he's worked
with a lot of veterinarians.

Hopefully he is, had his teeth done.

, and he is had some pretty good nutrition.

So, so there's.

as, as the lead up, but he's
bred to be really, really fast.

Um, he's been written fairly
roughly, um, and, , you know,

he's been, he's been taught to
lean into contact with the bridal.

, , you know, if there's one thing I can
say about horses, period, is their

ability to forgive is one of the
most soul cleansing and also taxing,

you know, if you think about it.

So once you start to spend time with the
horse and start to get him feeling good

in his body, they become so appreciative.

And so, gosh, I sound like a
broken record, but they get sweet.

Um, and um, I also like to.

illustrate in a way people can, can
understand, you know, the, the importance

of environment and diet for the horses.

So if a horse is at the track, you
know, we, we have a joke, a racetrack

saying that you just feed 'em
beans and gunpowder, you know, and

then light a match and off the go,

Um, so diet and environment, right?

If you bring home a.

Border Colly puppy and you live in an
apartment and you go to work all day,

he's probably gonna chew up all your
shoes and your credit cards and the walls.

Um, but if you live on a farm and he goes
to work with you all day and he's moving

all the time, and he is with other dogs.

people are gonna come to your
house at dinnertime and say, how

come your dog is so well behaved?

He just sleeps over in the
corner and doesn't bother anyone.

Um, it's the same with the horses when you
create the right environment and the right

diet, um, which helps me and my staff too
because I still like to go fast, right?

So it means that the thoroughbreds you
have are reason to get them out and

go find a good hill and have a proper
Gallup and, and move around a little

bit, um, so that they can regulate.

Um, and that works for me too.

So you're saying that, um, you are taking
off the track thoroughbreds and through

a mixture of this classical in-hand
work, plus this natural environment.

Um, cause I know I've seen your
California hills that you're working

on and giving them speed when they
need it so that they, correct me if

I'm wrong, so that they won't need it.

when they're working with
your vulnerable population.

Mm-hmm.

because they've got their
jollies out basically.

Is that mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

, um, means that you end up with
a sensitive and giving horse

that feels good in its body.

Mm-hmm.

, um, there's a real beauty in what
you're saying in terms of an animal

that has been, if not broken, or there's
some of them, uh, as you say, come

with injuries in service now being.

Rehabbed through this work that you do
to then go back into service in a way

that provides it itself with wellbeing.

There's a story to this that
I'd like to unearth, which I

actually myself don't know.

Even though I've known you for a while.

Not everyone knows thoroughbreds.

Not everyone would be able to do this.

Um, , let's go back to your earlys.

Joel, what's your first contact
with the horse in your life?

How did you get into horses?

, my mother's family were jockeys.

, some of them very good, some of
them really bad, um, and, , but

all of them violent drunks and.

. So my mother was terrified of me
being anywhere near the track.

, and she had a rough life growing up and
she wanted to create the perfect suburban,

, upbringing for her family, which she did.

Um, but it was always horses for me.

And I can remember I was
looking at your questions, um,

before I, before I dialed up.

And I can remember being like eight
years old at the, at the, at the Park

Pony ride, you know, where everybody
else is three or four years old and I'm

eight, so I'm bigger than anyone and
I'm on this pony on the little track.

and I am the happiest person on the
planet . I just, I can feel it in my body.

I just, it was just bubbles
everywhere and I was so happy.

I just wanted to cry.

And, you know, some squeaky little
plasticy saddle that I'm sitting

on, on some poor little pony that's
going round and round in circles and.

, nothing had ever made me so happy.

And, um, and so I just, whatever I
needed to do to be around horses, I did.

Um, which included, you know, working
for lessons or, , there were, there were

horses on the way to school, , in stables.

And I remember stuffing.

Sweatpants underneath my, my
Catholic schoolgirl's skirt and

sneaking into the barn and sitting
on their backs while they ate before

school, um, until I got discovered.

And there were nobody caught
you yet calls to the police?

Oh, yeah.

Well, eventually, eventually they did,
but um, you know, just being on them and

smelling them and being with them mm-hmm.

, , was all I ever wanted.

And, uh, so by the time I was 18,
I was galloping, racehorses at the

track, much to my mother's chagrin.

Um, and that was my life for, um,
I guess for the next 12 years.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Now, you, you, you, you said that
you were galloping racehorses

on the track from 18 mm-hmm.

. , I know your story and, , I think it would
really help listeners to know your story.

, because I think there's a link here
into service and special needs.

Something happened to you,
um, before that 18th birthday.

Can you tell us that story?

Sure.

, I was, , very unexpectedly a mom at 16.

, and, and this was where, where,
where in the US did that?

In Sacramento, California.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, , I was an athlete.

, my son's dad, , was also an athlete.

Um, we were both swimmers.

He was into cycling.

I was, I was running track
and cross country, , and we

were training for triathlons.

, I somehow thought that that would.

Act as birth control.

, . I don't know.

That sounds like a 16
year old in an outlook.

Yeah, yeah.

Doesn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, um, but I was very, very, very lean.

Um, which probably between that and
being 16 years old and quite stressed,

, contributed to the fact that he,
Greg was born nine weeks early, so

he was a three and a half pound baby.

Um, with a 50 50 shadow of survival,
three and a half pound baby.

. Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. And you're a 16 year old mom.

Mm-hmm.

with a, with a premature
three and a half pound baby.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

What are you looking at?

How are people reacting to this?

You know, I didn't have time to notice
how anybody was reacting, cuz I was, I

was busy praying and visiting and trying
to figure out how to breastfeed a baby.

That's on, you know,
that's being tube fed.

, he, he did marvelously.

He's is to this day, so strong,
um, and pulled through beautifully,

, and came home about a week
and a half before his due date

joel, I've lost you.

Hold on.

I got you back.

All right.

So where I lost you is you've
got, you're 16, you've got a

premature baby who's come home.

You're trying to figure out how to
breastfeed with a baby that's on a tube.

You're trying to figure this
out and you are riding racehorse

at the track for a living.

No, I wasn't.

Um, I started galloping racehorses
when he was about two and a half.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Cuz that's what all
young moms do, is Yeah.

When, when their kids hit toddler
and they, they, they go and get jobs,

galloping, two year old thoroughbreds.

Um, which of course not
dangerous or anything.

and, you took no wrecks
of course, I'm sure.

No, no, no.

Never fell off, right?

Mm-hmm.

M how do you go from this teenage
mom surviving by galloping racehorse

on the track, risking your life,
eeking out a dirt, poor wage living,

dealing with incredibly rough human
beings and meeting the challenges of

being a single mom, at a teenage.

How, how do you put all this together?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I know that's really unsatisfying, but

I think I realized that, , you
know, I was, I was a mom and it

was a sacred, um, important duty
and that I was his one person who

was ultimately responsible for him.

If I was dead inside, I'd have
nothing to offer him, and I needed

something that made me alive inside,
and that was horses And galloping.

Racehorse is a way you get paid
to have horses in your life

and you're done by 10 in the.

, um, you know, and so I could go to
school, I could have another job.

I could be with my son.

, so, you know, and, in a, in a, in a way
that's for better or for worse, followed

me through my life trying to cram all
these responsibilities in my life.

Um, so, you know, I was thinking,
how do I stay alive inside?

How do I feed a, a, a love and a
passion in me and still feed my family?

And that's what I did.

So you go from, um, galloping
resources on the track.

Mm-hmm.

as a single mom, figuring all this out.

And a certain time later in your
life, you enter the therapeutic

world with Neurodiverse people.

What's the connection?

There's a connection there.

What happens in the course of
those intervening years that.

Connect you from I.

Is there, is there something to do
with what's going on with your child?

What takes you there?

My son had a really
unique way of learning.

School was easy for me.

Um, I was always successful in school.

Um, I was successful socially.

Um, I was a mediocre
athlete at whatever I tried.

Um, for Greg it was different
and I realized that it wasn't a

lack of intelligence on his part.

In fact, far from it, he had
this spectacular curiosity

to want to know how things.

and he took things apart and he made
terrible messes and he lit things on fire.

And , he, he, he, he just wanted to know,
and he had to touch it and he had to

tear it up and he had to figure it out.

And, when you are, , a highly
active little boy, um, in our

school system with a very young
distracted mom, , you're a problem.

You're a problem.

That's all there is to it.

And he was a problem.

And you know, I, I like to
say that he hated school.

I think school hated him.

And that made me so angry that they just
were missing this beautiful intelligence.

And, um, at the time, uh, you
know, , the only resource that I

had for learning anything about
learning was the public library.

And, , so here I am at, you know, now
all of 20, 21, 22 years old with a,

with a, with a child in elementary
school who's already failing.

Um, and you discovered John
Holt and unschooling, and you

start thinking, wait a minute.

You mean brains aren't designed
to sit still in a classroom and be

shouted at for the next 13 years?

Um, you know, and John Holt was a nut,
but Gotti was a, he was a brilliant nut.

And then you start looking at
Waldorf education, which, you know,

how is a Gallup girl, um, going to
afford a private Waldorf education?

Here's these people talking about taking
children out into gardens and growing

their own food and, and, and, and I start
thinking, no, this is how he learns.

He learns hands on.

He learns by experiencing things.

And as I'm learning this and as I'm
watching him, he's failing and he's

failing and he's being labeled a problem.

And his behaviors are, , you know, I,
how do you take a beautiful eight year

old and have a depressed, angry child?

And I got angry and I got protective.

And I didn't get angrier protected
enough because I kept being told he just

needs to sit down and shut up and do it.

Um, and , and I just
kept getting more curious.

He taught me so much about learning
and so often I would just have to pull

him completely out of school because
it was just torturous for everyone.

And so here I am working, you know,
two and three jobs at the time,

still working at the racetrack.

And, um, and I got a
homeschool him on top of it.

, and then I just, I had to rely on other
people to, you know, I had to build

a village for him, , in how to learn.

And the village that came together
was not the one that I expected or

even wanted, uh, at the racetrack.

The, , they're all union jobs and
the security guards are union cops.

Most of them semi-retired,
a lot of them wounded.

, San Francisco and Oakland beat cops.

, I don't like it.

But to this day, my son loves weapons
and he learned how to respect a weapon.

He learned how to care for a weapon.

He learned how to handle a weapon
from these cops at the racetrack.

And they were so good to him.

And the, and the corporation
yard, the guys who built things,

you know, they were kind to him.

Um, the guys in the video department,
cuz I worked in the video department at

night, showed him how to wire things up.

Um, it was all hands on and that's
where he would thrive and that's

where he would shine and that's
where he would be successful.

And, , and he's a mechanic
today, you know, horse short.

You learned.

So you learned how to, create
community learning, teaching community.

I, you said you had to homeschool
and you immediately rather

modestly, leap towards what other
people, uh, were teaching your son.

What did you learn?

How did you learn to teach?

Tell us a couple of stories from that.

H h how did he teach you how
to teach a child like him?

Yeah, so I remember, you know, here,
I, I was working at least two jobs.

I was galloping race horses in
the morning, and I was working for

the racetrack in the afternoon.

So Mondays and Tuesdays were our days
for school and we had to, we had to

log X amount of hours of schoolwork
and turn that into the school district.

And that's how I was able to, so, so we,
we would collectively game the system.

So we would go to downtown
Berkeley and we would go and watch

a foreign film and eat popcorn.

And so we would log two hours of reading
because we had to read the subtitles.

Two hours of foreign language
and two hours of history.

We're six hours in and we've had popcorn
, you know, . Um, but it was really out

in movement and you know, playing in
the water and building dams and climbing

trees and reading books that he wanted
to hear about and that was humor He loved.

I think the hitchhikers guy did
the galaxy, changed his life,

you know, suddenly reading wasn't
a chore and it wasn't awful.

It was funny.

And where did you do this?

Reading?

As often as we could outside up in trees,
you know, at the beach, wherever you

climb into the trees with him and read.

Of course, I still climb trees.

I love you.

Say, of course.

I can tell you, Joel, your
average teacher, let alone

mum does not climb into trees.

. Well, they're missing something.

What made you able to
follow your child like that?

, it was probably de desperation.

Nothing else worked.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, if, if, if, if shouting
at him to sit down and shut up and

just do the homework worked, maybe
that's where our lives would've been.

But, you know, the universe had other
plans and, um, nothing else worked.

The only time he was happy.

And there's a, there's an all hands
on science museum in San Francisco.

Uh, well now there's several,
you know, this was right, this

was 25 years ago, 28 years ago.

and taking him there and just
letting him run loose and touch

everything and experience things.

And, and then I remember one time we went
to the, the aquarium in San Francisco.

This was the old one.

And, so here it is, you know, he's
homeschooling and, um, and we're in

the aquarium and we're down below
and there's, there's penguins.

, you know, in the, in the tank.

And Greg is running back and forth
and the penguins are swimming with

him and following him back and
forth, and he's having the best time.

And we look over and there's a group
of school kids with the teacher,

you know, who's making them go
through and do everything in this

very quiet sort of organized way.

And every kid was so desperately jealous,
of this little boy who could run with the

penguins in having the time of his life.

And suddenly he looked up and
he went, I'm the lucky one.

You know, nobody's telling me.

And, uh, the penguins
were having a great time.

I was having a great time.

Greg was having a great time.

That's how you learn to follow the child.

You know, you have those
little moments where you go,

oh, this is actually learning.

So you, you're saying, Greg,
to this day, he's doing great.

He's a mechanic.

He's, he's a horseshoe.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

, did he become a horseman with you?

He horses were part of
his life, his whole life.

Um, you know, his first
babysitters were horses, right?

Big thoroughbreds.

And, but school was continued to
be torturous and, and awful for him.

And so he was in his senior year
of high school, and, and he

just, he just wasn't going to go.

He knew he wasn't gonna graduate.

He hated school.

And, they call this now school
refusal, which there wasn't a term then.

, a dear friend of mine, uh, who had, , a
program in Maui, saw us really struggling

and fighting and fussing and, and, and
Greg had really fallen in with a, with

a bad bunch of kids, who had some
pretty, uh, dangerous lifestyle habits.

Um, and so she just intervened
and she said, uh, Greg, why don't

you come to Maui and work for me?

And he was, he was only 17 at the time.

And, uh, and we decided that, that
we would, you know, this was a

friend that I loved and trusted,
and she was, she was willing.

And so he did.

And he went to Maui and he
was working on a horse farm.

And, uh, her stepson, is on the
spectrum and they lived together.

And, um, and he, he was famous for
really violent meltdowns, and that

was part of j Greg's job was to keep
Ryan from hurting himself or others.

And, um, and it was a hard job.

And, , and, and the job fell apart.

so now here's my not quite 18
year old son living out of his car

in Maui, and, uh, every month.

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right.

Um, and, another friend in Maui
called, and uh, and she said, is,

is Greg still looking for work?

I said, he is.

And she said, I, I really need
someone to work for me at, at my farm.

And so I called him because every
homeless person in Maui has a cell phone.

And and I said, you know, look,
uh, Jillian needs someone to

work for her at PE Holo stables.

And he's like, God, mom, I'm
so sick and tired of horses.

I've been scooping horse
manure my whole life, LA la.

And I said, look, I, I understand it's
not a career move, but it's a roof

over your head and it's a hot meal
tonight, so just, just give it a go.

So he agreed and he called her
and he went to work for her and.

I don't think it was a week later.

She was an avid polo player.

And the Maui Polo Club, I think is
the oldest continually operating

polo club in the United States.

It's a, it's a big scene.

So she goes out into the, um, first
game of the season and, um, somebody

rides by her the opposite direction,
catches her stir up and turns her leg

completely around the other direction,
a really, really violent break.

And she was laying in the
hospital and she says to Greg,

um, I need you to run everything.

I need you to, um, run all
the lessons, take care of the

horses, and there's no money.

Um, but what I do have is I have a
string of horses, I have a rig, and I

have a membership to the Maui Polo Club.

So you can have my membership
for the year if you'll do it.

From homeless to member of the mouth, from
homeless to to member with a full string.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's such a Maui story.

Um, and, the, the local
pro saw a lot of talent.

Um, you know, because Greg knew
horses very, very, very well from

the ground and wasn't afraid of hot
horses cuz he'd been around racehorses

his whole life and took him under his
wing and, and privately tutored him.

And, uh, within a year, I think Greg
was rated, um, one goal outdoor and

two goals indoor, which is unheard of.

And it really changed his life.

And so the fact that horses would be a
turning point in his life where he wanted

to be healthy and he wanted to be engaged
in life, um, was a dream come true for me.

, he came back to the States and,
uh, started working for us.

Um, adopted a horse off the
track, whom, you know, who would

go through a forest fire for Greg.

, got involved with a girl who was
working for us, who is now, a quite

accomplished trainer in her own right.

And that's brings us to today.

So you follow, you, you're a 16 year
old girl, you get pregnant, you end up

with, uh, somewhat special needs son.

You at least in terms of what
would people now would probably

call a D d A D H D and mm-hmm.

, oppositional defiant, and so on and so on.

So, neurodiverse, you are
galloping resources at the track.

You find a way by following your child
reading books and trees going into nature,

moving and finding community for him.

Um, To the point where he can find a
way for, for horses to bring him from

homeless to a two gold polo player.

You then said he came back and
started working for us and adopted

a thoroughbred off the track.

Somewhere in there you went from
single mum galloping race horses on

the track to having a program, taking
off the track thoroughbreds and using

them therapeutically, fill that gap.

What happened?

Um, I think just pretty naturally, when
you gallup horses at the track, you start

to wonder what happens to them afterwards.

Um, and then you start placing
them, um, which is a great

excuse to do a little competing.

But then.

, you, you have these horses that, you know,
they're not a 16 one hand gray gelding.

Um, you know, with a, with a nice
balanced body that is going to

very easily find a, a, a show home.

You know, what do you do with a,
with a one-eyed horse with a big

ankle, um, who's a fantastic horse
who gave you everything on the track?

How do you help that horse?

Um, cuz that's gonna be a
hard horse to, to place.

And then I just started thinking
about the car bank debt that

we owe horses as a rule.

You know, everything that a horse
has done for humanity, but in

particular racehorse because they
so willingly give you everything.

Um, and they do get hurt
and they do break down.

I started.

Collecting is the wrong word, but there
were few horses that I knew were gonna be

really, really, really tricky to place.

And um, so what can those horses do?

And, um, then you realize that you,
you've got to have a lot of skill

with, , with, with keeping them
comfortable in their bodies and a lot

of skill with, with training them so
that they're quiet enough in their

bodies to maybe be a lower level school
master, um, or be a good trail horse.

Um, so it really started with
the square peg horses, right?

The horses that were gonna
have a hard time fitting in.

Um, but I had an experience, I, I I, I
started to garner, and I think probably

just from my experience with, with
realizing, that people learn a whole lot

differently than we were taught to teach.

Um, so I'd gotten a reputation in,
in running a writing school for, for

working with kids that were gonna
be a little more difficult to teach.

And, um, you know, a friend
of mine told me one time, it

takes no talent to teach talent.

And I thought, well, that's
an interesting, that's

an interesting challenge.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, and it's certainly true, right?

If we think about it, and, you know,
we, we so often wanna compete for

those clients who are talented.

, you know, and, and those clients
don't stick around, right?

Because they get recruited
by every other trainer.

And I thought, I don't wanna do this.

I really wanna invest in, in students.

I wanna spend time with and with
horses that I wanna spend time with.

I didn't want to be in a business
where I was just turning horses over

constantly and turning clients over.

I wanted people that, um, you know, if
they wanted to launch into a different

discipline that I didn't specialize in,
that would be great, but it would be, it

would be a natural movement rather than
this, this kind of ugly dog eat dog sort

of world that I saw in the horse business.

And, uh, so I got a reputation as
a, as a, as a, as an instructor who,

who had, and I'm putting air quotes
around a lot of patients cuz I don't,

I don't know how anybody can be
successful in the horse world unless

you have some degree of patience and.

. So this family brought this little
girl, uh, out for writing lessons, and

she was just, she's just a cute little
red-haired, freckle face little girl.

And she was very shy.

And the parents came to me and
said, well, um, she has autism.

And I said, well, what,
what does that mean?

And they said, it, it,
it, it means nothing.

Just treat her like any other child.

I said, oh, okay.

And she was shy and, and
we could work around that.

And she certainly seemed like
she liked the horses, even

if she was afraid of them.

And, uh, so I had thrown her into a
few group lessons and, we were out

one day a day, I'll never forget.

And, we're in the ring and, and it's
just one of those windy, shitty days.

And, um, the horses are distracted.

My voice isn't carrying, so I'm
shouting really loud to be heard.

And, um, and the barn crew decides
that they've had it with this

crappy weather, and they're gonna
feed the horses early and go home.

So now I'm teaching a group lesson and
all the horses in the arena can hear

is the horses in the barn being fed?

So now they're super distracted.

So every time this little girl
goes by the gate, of course the

horse just hangs a hard right hand
turn to the, to the, to the gate.

So I do what every riding instructor
since the dawn of time says to do.

And I shout at her to hold her left
ring and the horse ducks to the gate.

So we go around again, and of
course the horse ducks to the gate.

So I did what I was supposed to
do, I thought, and that is, shout

more loudly to hold the left rain.

So this goes on and it's just
getting awful and I'm doing my best.

I'm shouting so loud.

. Obviously anybody could understand.

All you have to do is hold the damn
left reign, so I go marching over.

I like the languages
in schools too, right?

It's true, it's true.

Yeah.

Shout louder.

Yeah, shout louder.

And, uh, which I was doing,
you know, with alacrity, I was,

I was really holding my line.

And um, so I ran over and I grabbed
the horse's rain and I made a face

at this beautiful little girl.

And I, and I looked up at her and I said,
all you have to do is hold the left rain.

And she leans over and she
gets almost nose to nose with

me and she just whispers.

I'm trying, hi.

And I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

and the whole, I felt
the ground underneath me.

Just move and shake.

Yeah.

Everything changed in that moment.

Yeah.

Everything changed and I think that
was the moment my life changed and I

realized this is the service I need to do.

I need to recognize when someone's trying.

I need to honor the student way more
than I was, and I needed to change

the way I thought about everything.

Yeah.

Now, Joel, well, hats off
because not every writing

instructor would've listened.

Hmm.

What made you listen?

I don't know, but it was so profound.

It was such a physical experience.

Mm-hmm.

. and I realized that I'm not teaching
any, I, I don't believe, and I've

thought about this a lot since then.

I don't believe that anyone has
ever taught anyone anything.

I think we learn when we decide to learn.

And if you wear the mantle of
teacher, you have to honor that

every day that all you can do is
present information the best you can.

And the learning is, is, is up
to the learner, not the teacher.

And I think it's the same with horses too.

You know?

I mean, how many, how many
ways to the pi off are there?

There's so many ways.

And every horse is gonna show you their.

and you can't teach the poff.

You have to search and look for it and
see what happens, and then you can help

develop it, but you're not teaching it.

What happened to that little girl?

Hmm.

That family?

I was associated, um, with some
families that were close to that family.

I think at that time, and you can
speak to this certainly better than

I can, at that time, there was very
much a very big school of, um, what I

call the Get over it School of Autism
Therapy, . I do remember that school.

And it's still out there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that family was quite
dedicated to that school.

Yeah.

Yeah.

did you manage after that moment where
she communicated to you, that she

needed compassion and joy before she
was taken away to a world of less joy?

Would you say that you managed
to switch her approach with her?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And how, how did you do it?

What did you do?

What did you change?

Well, the first thing I did is I
told, uh, I told the parents that

I, I only wanted to work one-on-one.

Um, and then we went to the round pen,
you know, where, where we could, we could,

you know, Skinner would call it
sterilizing the environment, right?

Where you had less distractions and you
had less things that she needed to do.

She didn't need to necessarily
steer, she could just.

, you know, feeling the horse
going forward and we could, we

could add one element at a time.

Um, and uh, and then I just
decided that it had to be more fun.

Mm-hmm.

just had to be more fun, you know,
nobody ever changed the world because

they knew what diagonal to post on.

Like, it's, it's never actually made
the world any better, . Um, uh, but

you know, that was, that was early
on, but it was how, how was definitely

how before we go, cause it's a really
interesting point cause the, the listeners

don't know where you've gotten to.

Now we will get there because it's
worth hanging with this, anyone who's

listening because, Joel's program is
for sure, uh, I'd say it's probably

one of the, it's in the top 10
in the world, um, in terms of its

effectiveness, , with Neurodiverse people.

. , and we'll go into why that is.

So how did you make it more fun?

How did you make it more joyful?

What did you do?

What did you change?

I changed me, right?

I changed the focus or the
intention that who cares about this

academic world of riding a horse?

Let's, let's just enjoy it.

What do you like about the horse?

Which horse do you like?

What is he, you know, is he funny?

Is he sweet?

Or when you're scared, you know,
what does he do that's scary?

So it was, it was an invitation to
having conversations about not just what

the horse was, but who the horse was.

So personalizing the horse, I
think was, was something that

came pretty naturally to me.

But, you know, when you, when you
find yourself running a, a riding

school, you know, the numbers add up.

And if you can get six horses,
six kids and horses in a lesson,

you know, you can make a living.

, but making it way more personal.

Um, and then, and, and,
and then, and then fun.

You know, do you think
the horse is having fun?

Well, what could the horse
do that's having fun?

Um, and that started to change
everything and it just gave me so

much freedom to do something way
more interesting than some type of

an academic writing school, you know?

Which then I later learned, came
out of a military tradition.

That's how I came up.

You know, I was shouted at and
screamed at and told how awful I was.

I mean, I did my time there and,
and just, um, and, and I'm grateful

actually to those teachers because,
because it helped me understand what

I didn't want in a writing school.

And in those moments where I'm shouting
to hold the left reign thinking.

. Well, this is, this is no good.

This isn't what I want.

So before we move on from where this girl
changed you to where you are now, um,

which is an impressive, uh, climb, does a
memory stand out from this girl before she

left your life where it did become fun?

Where, where, where,
where it became healing?

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Well, what happened was, um, because
I'd been quite a bit more successful

with this, with this girl, autism
family just started coming in, um,

and some of whom are still in my life,
and that was 20 some odd years ago.

Yeah.

Uh, and so.

it became one of the few places that
she could go where she felt successful

and that that was healing for her.

It was healing for me.

You know, any teacher who hears that
and who doesn't get really turned on

by that and say, wow, somebody who,
somebody really wants to be here.

This is the place they'd
rather be than anywhere else.

So, and this girl learned how to operate
your off the track thoroughbreds.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. That's not too shabby.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now this is you running a
small survival writing school.

Suddenly you're getting overwhelmed
with people, with children with autism.

Mm-hmm.

, because you did well
with this autistic guy.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. , I know that you, uh, have
several methods that you use.

I know that you use Horse Point Method.

I know that you use Movement Method.

I know that you train horses in hand
with the Baz, old classical burop thing.

What are your go-to methods and
what are not your go-to methods?

Basically, what is square peg?

Yeah.

You know, method is such
a tricky word, right?

Because it seems restrictive.

I like to think of it, and I think
you and I have had long conversations

about this, that the thing that
really excited me about Horse

Boy was that it was a framework.

I felt like it gave.

A set of principles that I
could hang flesh and muscles

and clothes and jewelry off of.

Um, and that's what I liked because,
, you know, I'm just not good at methods.

I'm not, because every horse,
you know, if, if, if you don't

like unpredictability probably
shouldn't be in the horse business.

you know, but for people with
short attention spans like us,

um, it works really well, right?

We're diligence.

We, we want to be adaptive, we want to,
to roll with what's happening today.

Um, and, and when you've got
rigidity, right, that's gonna break.

Um, and so having the flexibility
of a framework, which

one of those big portions of
the framework, like the, the,

the encompassing bit is joy.

You know, certainly
self-advocacy is our North star.

, but what propels that is, is joy and fun.

And if it's not fun, um, there's a
million other things and therapies

and activities that most of
our families are participating

in, , that aren't based in fun.

Yeah.

Um, and, and we know the brain science
now that it pays off, it pays off.

And like I said, if sitting
around and shouting at people

worked better, maybe I'd do it.

But all things being
equal, let's have fun.

And, , so there's a lot
of silliness around here.

There's a lot of creativity
and self-expression.

there's a lot of costuming
and dressing up around here.

, there's a lot of music, you know.

Um, and it's so great to, you know,
the technology that we have now with

Bluetooth speakers that we can put on
a, on a, , On a saddle and clip to it.

Uh, and if you can't do that,
you know, um, we've got a

horse that plays the ukulele.

I don't know, have you seen those videos?

Yeah, I have not seen those videos.

Oh, I think I would like
to see those videos.

Yes.

Yeah, you should see those videos.

I mean, listeners would probably
like to see those videos.

Your horses playing uk.

Anyone?

Yeah.

All in favor say aye.

Yeah, that's a resounding aye.

. Ok.

He's got chops.

Yeah.

Ok.

Yeah, he's got chops.

Um, and so, you know, and then we start
giggling around with whether or not we

should, , you know, we've got horses that
love to pick things up and shake them.

So we we're, we've gotta start a band.

Um, so we Yeah.

But you say that you, uh, don't like
methods, , but you also said, you

know, the neuroscience to it now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and I also see you diligently.

Following the old master system
of training horses with the lunch,

with the in-hand work, and then the
assisted in-hand work in the manner

of the old masters, which clearly
is getting great results with these

horses, both from the horses' point of
view and for the kids' point of view.

So there seems to be, to me, an
interesting mix there of freedom and

pre-ex expression mixed with hard
science, mixed with humbling yourself

to an ancient tradition that works.

And somehow in the midst of all those
three apparently contradictory things,

the square peg delivers up what

sweetness.

I know, but it's, it's what it
comes down to, it's sweetness.

Um, the horse feels good, the people
are feeling good, the parents.

, you know, a a as a parent, there's
nothing sweeter than the sound of your

child laughing and enjoying themselves.

And what is the child learning?

What are they learning while
they're in this sweet state?

Give me some examples.

Well, we wanna focus on
what they wanna learn.

And a lot of it is self-expression.

A lot of it is self-expression.

And I think, you know what we hear, if
you give the child the opportunity to

share their interests, they're reinforcing
things that they're struggling to learn.

we had, uh, uh, during Covid, uh, and
we've got a little video somewhere, , we

had, we had one girl, dress herself
up as a, , a bottle of hand sanitizer,

And then, and then, uh, uh, uh, and
then she painted the coronavirus

molecule on, um, on a horse.

And then she, uh, bathed him, right?

And so that was her way of
washing away the coronavirus

and being part of the cure.

And no longer, you know,
part of being scared.

Um, it's pretty out of the box.

Pretty weird, , right up there
with a horse playing ukulele.

Okay.

So, um, I, let's say I bring
my child to you mm-hmm.

, and I say, um, okay.

It's clear that you can
get communication going.

, I have a child that
doesn't wanna communicate.

Now I wanna take it further.

I'd like my child, child
to, , get comfortable with maths.

They don't seem to mm-hmm.

math.

What's your approach to that?

What, what are you doing?

Well, I mean, first we have to
figure out what the math level

of the, of the learner is.

Um, and also remember, music is math.

Right?

Right.

We can, we, we've got, we've got,
we've got eight counts and you can

factor that into, you know, four sets
of two, two sets of four, eight ones,

one, eight, you know, an infinite,
uh, an unending numbers of zeros.

And, and playing.

playing with the rhythm of the horse.

And, and music.

That's one easy one.

That's one of my favorite ones.

And also reminding, um, reminding
parents that listening to music is math,

enjoying music is math, dance is math.

Um, I think, do you remember, um, we
were in Thailand and there was a, there

was a boy playing guitar and his mother
was so upset and he was, he was a, he

was self-taught from YouTube videos and
his mother was incensed that he wasn't

learning math , you know, and helping him
understand, oh my gosh, you know, this is

all that, was, was, was helpful for her.

So, So at some point, yes, there is
the performative academics that you

do to make a family feel happier.

Um, but the stealthy academics are
way more challenging and way more fun.

And, um, and I would say when I, when
it comes to math and math concepts,

um, either, either music or, or the
actual physics, you know, jumping off

into the stream and building dams and
red diverting water and thinking about

how much pressure it's gonna take to
make the water flow down the hill.

Um, so you'll get the child off
the horse doing things like this.

Sure.

Showing them the physics, then rebounding
them, having them, uh, working the

rhythm of the horse, counting them
and putting the numbers together.

Then they're with math, both on
the horse, both off the horse

in that natural environment.

It's, it's, mm-hmm.

, would that be a typical
Yeah, very typical.

Very typical.

I think I would maybe want
to send my child to that.

Um, for, for, for, for a lot of
reading books on horses too, you know.

Okay.

And, and talking about books that
we're reading, you know, normalizing

the fact that people read and enjoy
books can be very educational.

You know, when a book is otherwise
just this torturous thing that people

make you do instead, all of a sudden
you're around a bunch of people and

they're all excited to talk about books.

Well, guess what?

That child wants to read a book so
he can bring it back next week and

participate in that conversation.

You talked about getting
the kid off the horse.

Would you say that that is as important
when you are doing equine assisted stuff?

Percent at the work with the horse?

Yeah.

Anytime you get attached to how much
time or what percentage of the time

the person spends on the horse, um,
you've already, you've already lost.

Not that, it's, not that it's a a, a
zero sum game, but, um, you know, because

then you're, you're forcing someone on a
horse and, you know, even the, the square

peg name is about not forcing a fit.

Right.

Because if you, if you force a square
peg into a round hole, you're, you're

forcing that fit and you're creating,
and then you're not only creating

resistance, but you're destroying
the peg and possibly the hole.

So I'm a child, it's
just a mess I get mm-hmm.

, uh, brought to your place.

Mm-hmm.

parents say, I want to try
the sequin therapy thing.

Mm-hmm.

, it's clear that I have want
nothing to do with a horse.

Mm.

What are you gonna do?

We are, are going to, um, make sure
that we have a, a, a volunteer,

um, who is close enough with the
horse, but then the instructor, the

employee, is going to figure out.

What you like, what you are interested
in, and we're going to be really, really,

really sensitive to how close we can bring
and involve the horse in that activity.

And that may take weeks.

Um, and then somebody else is going to
be talking to the parent and explaining

to them what's going on so that they
feel involved in it and they don't

feel like they're wasting their time.

Or helping that parent just go for a
walk and, and spend some time alone or

go with a friend to the coffee shop.

Um, so you will find, you will find
out the child's interests, follow those

interests, whether they're horse or not.

Mm-hmm.

, have the horse sort of available mm-hmm.

mm-hmm.

to let the child grow into Yeah.

And naturally find either funny
or, or very natural ways to involve

the horse in the conversation.

. Um, and a lot of times, and I think the,
the rescue aspect of the horses plays

into that because you'll find a softness
and a, and a, and a and a care that

most people will have for an animal.

Um, and this, this horse needs help.

And, you know, he's a recovering
ukulele addict and, um,

So it can be silly, it can be ridiculous.

Um, but laughter's a beautiful
way to, to ipel learning.

When, um, the client, let's
say, cuz they could be a child,

they could be a young adult.

Mm-hmm.

, um, reaches a certain level
of engagement with the horse.

You've built this relationship.

Do you involve them as trainer?

absolutely.

Tell me how you do that.

And it's, I, well, it's empowering, right?

I'm not just using this
horse as a beast of burden.

I'm helping this horse
feel better in his body.

I'm helping this horse learn new things.

Um, we also, we do a lot of trick training
around here and liberty too, which can

be really, really, really empowering
for somebody who's constantly being told

what to do, to be put in the position
to get 1100 pounds of x-ray horse to

do something silly, like step up on a
pedestal or bow or smile or lay down.

Um, we've got one who loves to lay
down now, and so we can get people

to sit on him and then get back up.

And it's a really thrilling, big feeling.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, you know, also taking what
the horse's natural interest is too.

, again, this was a horse that
when he was frustrated, would

throw himself on the ground.

That's a problem in training
him for what we're doing, but we

turned it into something sweet.

and, uh, and now he'll lay
down on Q and you can get on

him and he'll stand back up.

Um, so again, you know, this just
suits my own a d d Dilatant type

brain, um, to try and just roll with
whatever, whatever being presented.

Do you find that a lot of your clients
actually make quite good horse trainers?

Mm, I do.

I do.

I do.

Why do you think cutting?

Cause they're, you know, one of the, part
of autism is a brutal honesty, right?

Mm-hmm.

and horses love honesty,
and they love consistency.

They're so much happier with that
than, um, than with other people

who have, you know, fuzzy, weird
rules that change all the time.

, you know, somebody
who's, who's very clear.

. Um, and no, you don't get the treat
or whatever until you do x and holds

boundaries, um, is refreshing to a horse.

, and also just, just the joy.

Um, you know, it feels good when the
horse does these groovy fun things and,

and we can play around and say, look,
you know, this is a bullfighting move

and this is how a bullfighting horse
feels, and now you feel him dancing.

Um, and, and then you'll find that,
that, you know, the, the people

that we serve start asking for it.

Well, he feels a little sticky today.

Can we do the bullfighting stuff?

You know, nobody wants to kick a horse
around in circles, and we all have horses

that some days just don't wanna do it.

So when he gets in that
flowy feel, it feels good.

Yeah, feels good.

Yeah.

There's no joy in just.

brutalizing horse and the ribcage.

Given that the horse world can be a
pretty rough world, um, obviously the

racetrack, obviously the sport world, but
also, you know, the riding teacher world,

as you say, it comes from the military.

So shouting at people and so on, um,
unless they go through an evolution like

yours, um, within the therapy world and
the equine assisted world, what would

you, what changes would you like to see?

What would you like to see more of?

Have you seen the study that just
came out this week out of Cornell

about, um, uh, they've put e e
g, um, little helmets on horses?

No, I have not.

Tell me about it.

Oh, I will.

It's um, I made some notes here.

I'll just read you these two sentences
because cuz they're significant.

Um, in answering the question, so it says,
horses and stables showed an average of

two and a half times more right hemisphere
gamma waves than those living in open

fields with other horses in people.

Such waves are often a sign of
anxiety, distraction, and depression.

The horses that spent most of their
time out in the open fields showed

twice as many left hemisphere theta
waves on average, which is generally

a sign of calm and attentive mind.

Um, I think paying attention to the
environment and the social needs that

our horses have, um, before delving into
to doing, making sure that the horse's

social and exercise needs are attended
to before expecting them to participate

in a healing modality is what I'd like to
see more of in the equine therapy world.

I guess that's logical if
the, if the horse is supposed

to, uh, transfer wellbeing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If the horse is not in wellbeing Yeah.

How are they going to do that?

Well, and you know, you introduced
me to, um, uh, Nina at Coleman Fry,

who's been doing so much of the studies
on the permission-based horsemanship

in the, in the equine guided field.

And, um, you know, at the time
when she started that, she, I

think she took a lot of heat.

And it's nice to see, um, people
recognizing that if you, if you, if

you're not attending to the horses' social
and physical needs, um, it's just plain

dangerous to ask him, to, to interact
with, with people who need healing.

Mm-hmm.

, I agree.

You know, we were talking about brain
science earlier too, for, for those,

um, listeners who don't know when
a horse goes in soft collection,

and it rocks the rider's hips.

It fills the rider with a, uh, feel
good hormone called oxytocin, which also

happens to be the communication hormone.

So if you have someone who's in
a high level of anxiety, you're

filling them with a feel good hormone
and a hormone that wants them to,

makes them want to communicate.

And then when they move and problem solve,
which is the balancing, um, a protein

is produced in the brain called bdnf,
brain derived neurotrophic factor, which

over time working with neuroscientists,
we've, we've obviously found out,

you know, is, can be transferred
for neuroplasticity, um, in people.

do you find that this same
process works for the horse?

Do you feel that the horse
is getting oxytocin as well?

When you're working him in the
this way, do you feel the horse

is getting B D N F as well?

And if so, how is that, how is that,
uh, making life better both for

that horse and for whatever client
is interacting with that horse?

The studies aren't that far along, with
the horses, but it would certainly seem

that, uh, that the horses are regulated.

Um, you know, what do we look
for in a horse if we're, if we're

judging in a hunter course, right?

We're looking for this horse that's.

Soft over his back, that where his,
his neck and his shoulders meet.

he, he doesn't have a lot of
tension that his legs swing evenly.

Um, that he, he has a soft gaze, that
his ears are even and pointed forward.

All of those things indicate, , you
know, a horse that, that is, is

regulated and whether or not, um,
that translates as, as oxytocin.

we don't know yet, but we certainly see
on the outside of the horse, a horse

that is regulated and feeling good.

Um, We can translate that into our
own bodies, and we certainly feel it.

You know, any rider, any rider knows
the difference between a horse that is

stressed and uneven as opposed to a horse.

That's, that's, you know, even
just going down the trail, right?

That, that head bobbing, swinging,
let's go somewhere, curiosity

as opposed to the Jesus Christ,
we gotta go back to the barn.

This is awful.

You know?

Um, yeah.

You don't, you don't have to
be a horseman to feel that.

You just have to be, have a heartbeat.

What about, what about neuroplasticity?

Um, brain change, positive brain change.

Mm-hmm.

, what positive brain change do you,
do you, would you see, you see,

would you say, see this in the horse?

Absolutely.

And, and again, you know, you, what
I've seen with the in-hand work when,

when it's done skillfully, um, is,
is that, the uptake of information.

so quick.

Uh, we are having horses learn
faster now that we're five or six

years into using the Lenzo method
than I've ever, ever imagined.

Um, you know, the, the, the group we
have between the two farms, we have 26

horses right now, never ever had as good
a group of horses as we have right now.

And these are, you know, these are 5,
6, 7, 8, 9 year old thoroughbreds and,

you know, really grouchy 21 year old
thoroughbreds too, with a lot of injuries.

Um, and they're, they're coming up and
learning faster and faster and faster.

It, it just, it, it, it blows me away.

So, you know, so the proof is in
the pudding at the end of the day.

Um, and so it, it, it, you can draw
a pretty straight line in between.

doing good in hand and lunging work,
and a horse, a horse's learning

curve, and neuroplasticity and being
able to tolerate, um, more stressful

situations before, you know, before just
having a refusal or whatever that is.

It's what, it's what I see
and I, I, I'm pretty confident

that the science will play out.

And so it's really nice that they're,
you know, again, that's why I loved

this study from, from Cornell is that
they're, they're finally, um, they're

measuring brainwaves on, on horses.

They're regulated and it, you know,
uh, we all know that an anxious,

distracted, and depressed mind doesn't
pick up or retain information that well.

And there used to be an old cowboy saying
that says, you know, you can, you can

whoop a horse into understanding, but
you're gonna have to do it again tomorrow.

Mm-hmm.

, right.

. And um, that's a very
rough way of saying it.

Um, but, you know, but, but I
came from that rough school of, of

horsemanship and we did, and you had
to do it over and over and over and

over again until that was an accident.

Yeah.

Until there was an accident.

Yeah.

Or until the horse just gave up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we thought I was training,
we thought I was trading.

Well, we were told to do it.

Yeah.

We were, we were, we were told
to do it that hard school.

Yeah.

We were told to do it.

Yeah.

But I think we all observed
that it didn't really work.

didn't really work.

. If it did, we wouldn't be
looking for other things.

But you mentioned Lenzer method.

, I, , I will put a, for those of you
who are listening who listen to that,

I'll put a, a web link at the end of
this for that, for the ER family, and

the, this classical work that they do
in hand, um, I'll make sure that that's

there in the links at the end of this.

Um, so we've gone from your backyard.

off the track thoroughbred thing to
now here you are, you are receiving

regular grants from the Off the
Track Thoroughbred Association.

You are receiving awards from them.

You are, a registered health provider now
with San Mateo County, is that correct?

.
Mm-hmm.

Talk to me about, about
that for mental health.

How, how has that played out?

, so, , San Mateo County Mental Health
has engaged us with a contract to

provide, um, equine assisted mental
health services, uh, for the county.

So what we did, , was we did a series of
retreats for the mental health providers

where we actually brought them out for
a full day long sensory based, , day

of helping them build resilient skills.

And at the end of the day, um, we
did, , what, what in horse boy work

we called sensory work, which was
putting them on the horses body to

body in different positions that of
course the children have shown us.

, and getting them a feeling of being
supported and up on the horses in these,

in these very vulnerable positions.

, and for a lot of people, a significant
amount, it's a really emotional experience

and people who have been around horses
our whole lives and grew up around

horses, um, it doesn't feel that special
to us because that's how we spent

time on our ponies, you know, laying
backwards on our pony out in the field.

And if we rolled off, you know, you
rolled into the grass and you giggled

and you laughed and you dropped your
book, or, um, you know, we would sit

two and three on a horse and, you know,
somebody's up on his neck and somebody's.

. but for people who aren't around
horses, this is, this is life changing.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, and so to give them that experience
and then, we we set it up with

the therapist where they have the
opportunity to either come with their

client or whether they send the client
here and we're supporting the, the

therapeutic goals, for that person.

, and , we ended up doing a lot of
intense services for a youth program

that's kind of a quasi, um, it's kind
of the space between foster placement

and juvenile detention facility.

These are kids that kind of are in
that space in between and, . , it's

a residential program and, uh, and
we are seeing those kids come out,

um, two and three times a week, and
they're now volunteering with us too.

And they have been really, really, really
good in working with our autism families.

Um, so it's been a
really nice integration.

we're also, working on piloting a program
for the San Mateo County, , department

of Education to do resilience workshops,
including the somatic stuff, um, for,

for teachers experiencing burnout.

So pretty exciting stuff.

So this is mental health beyond
autism, and this is mental health

of mental health care providers in
a weird way, like in hand work for

the horse in hand, in brain work for
the, for the, for the, for the car.

You, how do you deal with burnout, Joel?

I mean, you were a, a
stressed out single mom.

You were a teenage, stressed out
single mom, galloping resources

on the track, risking your life.

You had to start a whole
organization from scratch.

You have built it now to one
of the biggest, um, you know,

equine uh, facilities in, in,
certainly in California, and you're

right there in Silicon Valley.

You've got two locations now.

Um, I know that there's another
rather cool location coming up,

which I hope you'll tell us, right?

How I've seen you, I, I, I know
the intensity of this work and

everything that goes into it.

The horse training, not to mention the
fundraising, not to mention the money.

How do you yourself deal with burnout?

What's your, what's your advice?

Mm-hmm.

for the people in this field?

Ray Burnout, I think,

,
doing something creative
outside of, of whether it's, you

know, horses still turn me on.

I'm so lucky that way.

But, you know, I have
times where I need a break.

, and, , , but, uh, but writing,
even journaling is a creative

endeavor that, , that helps.

, cooking.

I love cooking.

It's a creative challenge.

, , and I've gotten quite into cold
water, sea swimming here, , which I

really, really, really, really enjoy.

Um, but I'm so lucky to do what I
love doing and,, and I have a pretty

strong meditation practice too.

Talk to me about the creative writing.

Well, I finally finished a novel.

I've got, um, I've got a, , a screenplay
sketched out that just needs all of

the bells and whistles hung on it.

And that's a, that's a, that's a, a
creative form that I never expected that

I was gonna, and it, and it just came.

So it's kind of fun.

And if it turns into nothing, who cares?

I'm, I'm enjoying the process.

, and, , and I'm working on a, on
a book that is the square peg

story that Trafalgar Square has
given me a handshake deal for.

That said that they would
love first option on that.

And , and I'm about 60,000
words in, so I've got a pretty

good go at a first draft.

, yeah, I dunno where you find the time.

Tell us about the novel.

What's it about?

Can we buy it?

Can we read it?

Sure, sure.

You can buy it as a, , a
Kindle at a dam fine hand.com.

Is that the name of the book?

, that is the name of the
book, A dam Fine hand.

, what's a That's great name.

It's, , fun title.

It is a fun title.

, what's the story?

What's it about?

The story is, uh, it is, it's
a, a fictional telling, of,

uh, it's, it's really, it's the
girl and horse story, right?

It's, which has been
told over and over again.

But, um, it's started as a short
story where I was really fascinated.

by thinking about black beauty as a story.

Black Beauty was the first
time anybody told a story from

the animal's point of view.

And Black Beauty launched the movement
that created the, the S P C A.

Mm-hmm.

So a story really can change the world.

And that story did, and I thought
just as a creative exercise, I wanted

to see what would happen if I got
in the mind of a horse and took him

through the journey of going from the
racetrack to the Slaughter pipeline.

Hmm.

And, um, what a lot of people don't
understand is, uh, I, I very much

appreciate the, the, the efforts of the
Humane Society, but what Humane Society

did, , about 10 years ago, was that they
outlawed slaughter in the United States.

, which sounds like a, a real win.

What it did was that it forced the
slaughter to go across the border

to Mexico and Canada, and the
transport of animals across those

borders is unregulated and the
slaughter houses are unregulated.

And it unfortunately created a pipeline
of suffering, but is spectacular.

, so, you know, if you're signing a
petition, read the whole petition.

, not that I'm advocating that we need
slaughterhouses or that we need to

slaughter horses, um, but you know,
if we're, if we're euthanizing horses,

which any horseman has to do, We
just, we have to think about the

compassionate way to do it rather
than kicking the can down the road.

And I wanted to tell that story and I
thought that telling that story from

the horse's point of view was the
only really effective way to do it.

So a damn fine hand started
as a short story of that horse

going through that experience.

, and I named the horse via
Condiss, which is go with God.

And I realized that this horse was
the best Buddhist that I'd ever met.

that alone created in my life,
that he truly lived in the

moment, in the here and now.

And he lived with true forgiveness.

, and the story grew from there.

Grew from characters in that story,
um, to the people in his life who

surrounded him and what their stories.

and we can, we can, how
do we order this book?

How can we get this book?

You can go to a damn fine hand.com
and purchase a Kindle version of the

book if you'd like to download it.

Or you can contact, um, oh my gosh,
I've forgotten the name of the

bookstore here in town, because
that's where my mind is right now.

Give me a minute and I'll think of
it, or I'll send it to you and we

can put it in, send us, we'll put it
in the links, but@downtimehand.com.

I think.

We'll, we'll help, we'll put
that, we'll put that there too.

Yeah.

Um, one of the things with
burnout, , that I find interesting

is that we're surprised by it.

Hmm.

Right.

And we're outraged by it.

It's like, oh my God, I can't believe
I burned, you know, it's like,

well, of course one burned out.

You know?

And of course, one burns out
regularly and often and, um, it,

it, and fires need to be re-lit.

I, I, I.

I say this as if it was obvious, but
of course, you know, I myself had to

spend 30 years before I tumbled to this.

Um, that of course burnout's inevitable
and , in fact is often I think proof

that you're doing very good work.

Now, mums burnout because they're
great moms, , people burn out in

their jobs cuz they're working very
hard and, and and doing a good job.

And, but obviously in, in, in this line
of work with equine, anything equine,

but particularly equine with vulnerable
human populations, not to mention

vulnerable equine populations, which
of course you do, you also have this

responsibility to keep everybody safe.

Mm-hmm.

And so into the bargain on top of
how exhausting and demanding and

absorbing and amazing and interesting
and all these things that work

is, there's also this underlying
stress constantly of, I, I must.

Keep everybody safe in a, in an
environment that has many, many

inherent risks, um, and take
responsibility for those risks.

So what often surprises me is that
we have no, no training has offered

us, or no mentorship has offered us,
whether it's from our parents or in

school or in college later, or, uh,
that prepares us for the inevitability

of burnout and almost allows us to make
friends with burnout and to say mm-hmm.

mm-hmm.

from time to time you will burn out.

And that's okay, because really
that's just says now you need a pause

between the last awesome thing and
the next awesome thing that you're

gonna take on, you know, even, even
Hercules rest between the 12 tasks.

And, , so given that, , what's your
advice for, particularly for younger

people coming into this field?

Um, because a lot of people come into it,
obviously, with a lot of altruism as as,

as one should, altruism is a good thing.

, and then they of course get surprised.

What's your advice to someone going
into the field for how to thrive?

help me pronounce his name because
your French is way more sophisticated.

Albert Camu camu you, you youu,
you, you hit it right first Camu.

Okay.

Um, like a camel with a Ooh , A camel
with a Ooh . A uh, uh, wrote an essay,

, called The Myth of Sisyphus, , that
I'm a nerd and I love essays and,

um, it's the most beautiful story.

And, and, and write Sisyphus.

That was his, his his, his sentence
right, is to roll this boulder

up to the top of the hill and
it rolls back down every time.

And he's, he's destined to have to do this
over and over and over and over again.

And, uh, what Kamoo does is he said, what
if we imagine Sisyphus is happy in his

job, that it's the natural, normal thing.

Of course, the Boulder rail rolled
down the hill, it's supposed to

roll down the hill, and now he
knows exactly what he needs to do.

And so he stands at the top of the hill
and he watches that boulder down and

he laughs and he says, ah, I gotta go
back down the hill and get the boulder.

That to me, is the most
beautiful anti burnout story.

There he is, and it, ah, and I review it.

Interesting.

I review it pretty regularly.

Thank you for the tip bright.

So the rolling up of the.

The boulder is its own art
form to be read the rolling up.

He knows what his work is.

Yeah, right.

He knows exactly what he has to do.

And how beautiful is that?

To know exactly what you have to do.

And perhaps with every time he rolls
it up, he notices more nuances of

the stone or more nuances of the
vegetation, or strengthen his body,

or he chooses to be happy at his task.

He chooses to find something interest,
he chooses to find some difference,

something to learn something about it.

He chooses to be happy that he
knows exactly what he needs to do.

He has a choice and he chooses happiness.

A lovely, lovely metaphor.

I'm so gonna steal this.

Um, yeah.

Enjoy it.

Thank you.

, because the, you know, obviously
in all of our line of work, we're

dealing with burnout, whether it's
ourselves or people we're working

with, or workshops we're giving or,
you know, blah, even with horses.

Um, but yes.

. It's true.

We do not stop to consider.

Thank you for bringing
this to our attention.

We do not stop to consider that the
beauty of starting again from scratch.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

every time.

Um, like I know this is a writer.

, when I write a new book, it really doesn't
matter how many books I've written.

It doesn't matter if they were successful.

Is that, that you are starting from
the beginning every time and there's

this feeling of, oh, I thought I knew
how to write and now it's like, ah,

it feels like rolling above up out.

Um, interestingly, I do not have that
reaction when I'm starting a new horses.

I always have that thing
of, oh, here I go again.

Interesting.

You know, you know.

, but what I've had to learn to do with
writing is to say to myself when it.

Sian

Sian with the camels, with
an, when it feels that way.

Um, it's just to put one, I call
it putting one word in front of the

other, saying, well, mm-hmm , it's
maybe be rubbish now, but it will

not become good until it exists.

So let it exist as rubbish and
then I can make it good later.

Um, we don't give ourselves
that permission, do we?

We we gotta be perfect every time.

Mm-hmm.

, that's where, that's where the
stressors comes in, in, in, in dressers.

Well, you didn't execute
that thing perfect as well.

Of course I didn't.

Cause I'm going through a learning
curve, you know, . How, how could

I, how could I possibly, you know?

Um, and by the way, I never will actually.

I'd like to move in that direction, but
none of us will ever achieve perfection.

Um, and of course the joy is killed.

And you've talked about joy a lot and
I love that you've brought into the

system sub . Um, Boulder rolling uphill
thing that, that, that could actually be

really joyful and to, to consider that.

Mm-hmm.

rather than saying, this
burnout thing is a dragon.

Ima slay, like, this autism
thing is a dragon Ima slay.

We know.

Well, that will never work.

Yeah.

The autism is a perfectly
viable way to go through life.

Otherwise, temple Grandin would not have,
or the degrees she had and hasn't not

have published all the books she has.

And it's clearly, she's very
successful and autistic.

So the, the burnout is the burn is
the autism problems, the burnout, the

problem, no suffering is the problem.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm , that's the problem.

Mm-hmm.

, the, the suffering brain, cortisol, stress
hormone learning brain is the happy brain.

The unhappy brain is
not the learning brain.

, but I love how you've just
brought that to our attention.

So how would you help an
ambitious and impatient young

person going into this field?

, um, and, and perfectionistic because
horse people are, , to come to

that , , outlook and, um, perspective.

Give us a tip.

I think, I think journaling is really
critical, um, because it gives you an

opportunity to make that choice, right?

Of course, the boulder r
rolled down the hill again.

It's supposed to, and it's going
to the next time and the next time.

And so you can stand at the top of the
mountain and curse, and yell and kick.

Um, but if you, if you journal it
out, then you get the opportunity

to reframe the situation and make a
choice as to how you wanna proceed

and how you wanna be proceed.

, you know, why are you in this field?

And any of us in mental health, any of us
in healing need to think about why we're

in the field and we need to think about
it regularly so that we don't fall into

the trap of pity and being condescending.

Because once we're there,
we are not helping anyone.

No.

And, and then of course, we, we, we,
, very quickly, slightly to self-pity.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

and self condescending.

That's natural.

Which is beating ourselves up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. , and I do agree with you.

I think it's natural.

I don't think one can, I don't
think one can escape it because

I think that's part of the human
condition, but perhaps one can learn

to use it as a thriving mechanism.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Um, is this, is this the
acquisition of wisdom?

Is this the acquisition of,
of resources and skills?

Does Ssus get a little buffer,
richer, happier, healthier, fitter.

every time he rolls the boulder up.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

is the, is the rolling of the
boulder up the, the thriving,

and is the relaxed walk down.

Could you be admiring the view?

Could you be, is that, is that
your, is that your retreat time?

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

when just walking relaxed
down the hill, swinging.

I was whistling, smelling the herbs
on the mountain, looking at the sea.

Cause I've just placed myself
in California in ancient

Greece for some reason.

and, um, then, oh look,
here's a, the boulder again.

. There it's, oh, there you're again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Humor helps now.

Humor helps.

Tell me a funny story from Square Pack

We have a little boy.

Um, He's adopted, , his life
before adoption, pretty traumatic.

And he's, he's beautiful.

, he's just, he's just so damn cute
and, , and very innocent looking.

And when he's frustrated, he, he says some
very bad words, words, naughty words.

Naughty words.

And he says them in context, . And he
sends them, which is really impressive.

And, , his, his, his mom is wonderful.

, and she knows with him and, and, and
he runs hard and he chases things.

And this is a kid who can
pluck a butterfly out of the.

, you know, , he, what did he catch?

Well, he caught a coil with his hands.

What?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He, um, that, that

it's very like, I don't, yeah.

Yeah.

I cannot imagine that we're or something.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, April between 15 feet into there,
I know how fast those things grew.

Yeah.

Aqua, he, , he caught,
he caught a rubber boa.

We haven't seen a rubber boa here.

He has caught, um, the snake skins.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

He's caught little skins.

Um, I brought him to a place one time
that had a little rabbit hutch in it

and turned my head to do something.

Turned back.

He was in the rabbit hutch.

Which is impressive.

. Uh, so, you know, he's
super, super, super physical.

And so being on the horse, on the lunge at
the canner is really regulating for him.

Lots of sleep problems.

Um, but he wanted to run around and,
you know, and catch snakes and his

mother's like, look naughty word.

Yeah.

And well, is that, is
that, is that the key?

He shouts, he's very naughty as the,
and the, the snakes freeze in shock and

No, but his mom saying can mood you.

He, he can't keep coming back unless he
spends at least 25 minutes on the horse.

So we're trying to figure out
how to, how to do this without

forcing him on the horse.

So, , why, why did she
say that out of interest?

Why does it matter?

It, it matters to her.

And, um, that's, we've, we've talked
about it, but it, it matters to her.

Okay.

And I think mostly because when he is
on the horse, , , he's, it, it it's

demonstrable how much better he sleeps.

Right.

Okay.

And their life is much better
when he sleeps, obviously.

Okay.

So , we told him that, , that the
horse's back is a safe place where

he can say anything he wants.

Did he take that opportunity?

He did.

And the problem is it's really
hard to keep lunging a pony when

this adorable seven year old
going, beep, beep, beep, mother.

So we're trying not to fall on the ground.

And we of course, know that we're
reinforcing the behavior by laughing.

And so, so now his mom comes back
and she's like, look, , we're

pretty much.

. And, and of course we, we think
that we've, you know, really

pulled off something great.

So , but you know, she, she knows that
he's gonna get in a lot of trouble

for, um, mother for, you know, saying
bad words for the mother, Pete.

And, uh, so we had to come up with
secret swear words that were so

awful and so terrible, Ooh, that,
um, you know, they, they can only

be spoken from the ponies back

And so as a staff, we would come up with
these nonsense words and we would say

them, and we were just like, oh, you
know, everybody would like, would you?

Now he's got this adorable seven
year old panning around going

bar fig newgen, bar, fig Newgen.

Ooh.

. Yeah.

I felt chill.

Like German is fantastic that way, right?

Yeah.

And then you would have to just like,
and then you would, you would make

it so that other people would be
walking by and just like, oh, kind of

flinch, you know, as he would say it,
because the payoff would be so big.

So we would, you know, it's spend the
whole week coming up with these, these

terrible, terrible made up words.

Um, but Fark Newgen is
one of the best ones.

And so even today, far, this was
months ago, we did this Fig Far Newgen.

Yeah, fig was, that's, that's, that's
remember, oh, ooh, that's, yeah.

No, that, yeah.

Definitely freezes the spleen.

Yeah, absolutely.

It does.

It does.

Yeah.

You have to kind of wipe
up after saying that.

Yeah's confession.

Yeah, exactly.

Bless me, father far.

I far kin.

Um, it's just a funny, funny, funny
story and, and coming up with new

words or just walking by him and
leaning over and whispering in his ear.

Dude.

Perfect nugget, , like
running away and laughing.

you know, it's really interesting that,
because I remember with um, my son Rowan,

when he went through a phase now, 10, 12
years ago, or wanting to say, beep beep,

beep, beep, beep, beep all the time.

And we gave him a safe place to do it
and people said, you know, oh, he's

gonna just abuse that all the time.

And yeah, there were a couple of times he
said it in the wrong place, but actually

what happened is he totally got it out
of his system and um, we didn't make it

a holy grail and we made it funny and
we realized it was gonna happen anyway.

So we rather roll with it.

But then I also taught him
the history of those words.

Cause there's a very old
words in the English language.

In fact, they show up in Be Wolff
and from the fifth century, you

know, the first poem in English.

And that's, it's in there.

Um, the one we all know, , The
fun one and, , fun one then.

And then from there we could go into
Anglo-Saxon history and then fall of the

Empire and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And we could go further then up into
Norse history and the Norse gods.

And it was, it was a really good
way into all sorts of things.

Um, and then to reading
the, the poem itself.

Um, so what I love is that what you did
is as well as giving the safe space and

the regulating behavior, and he's now on
the horse and having fun and sleeping, but

also you've shown him, , social context.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

, you've shown him in a really
stealthy under the table sort of way.

So he, it's not gonna be resisted.

, this is how you can be fun and a bit
naughty in a social context that will be

then rewarded and you won't be punished.

And it's also inventive, but what I
really love is you, you hit on a very

key thing, which I feel is often missing.

in the world of, of
equine, , assisted stuff.

It's a very bit of a serious world.

Mm-hmm.

, um, and to the detriment.

I, you know, I, I think if you're working,
particularly if you're working with

kids, it's like if you're not laughing
at least every couple of minutes,

you're kind of in the wrong business.

, any time one is you, it's using, , toilet
humor or a four letter or, or whatever.

, it's an act of rebellion.

Mm-hmm.

. And if a child is being told
from day one, you are not right.

You need therapy.

That's why you are going to this
square pay place, or this is,

that's why you're going into this
therapeutic writing place or whatever,

and they're also in all these other
therapies and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And you are not right.

You're not right.

You're not right and you must do
this and you must do that, and da,

da da, and their spirits get broken.

You see this?

Mm-hmm.

What we call, you know,
being therapied out.

It's another form of burnout.

and I know so few people who are able
to restore the broken spirits of people.

Cause it's not just kids who
have been given a profound sense

of shame about who they are.

Mm-hmm.

. And the only way that's a form
of oppression and the only way

you can shake off the oppressor
is to rebel, to break the chains.

And often that's violently done.

I mean, that's obviously what
teenage rebellion is and so on.

And um, to give an outlet for that
where you can rebel in a constructive

way that will not get you in trouble,
will actually when you brownie points,

but will restore your self-respect.

That's genius.

And that's why I wanted to talk to
you because I don't know many people,

Joel, who can do that, where you
see the bigger picture you follow.

where the child is at, you see what
the dangers are, and you sidestep them

by coming up with something inventive
that negates the negative side, but

gives all the positive outcomes.

It's genius.

Um, are you training
people at Square Back?

Are you men?

We are, yeah.

We, how did somebody get
trained or mentored by you?

Mm-hmm.

You know, the pandemic slowed down
a lot of the mentoring that I was

doing for new programs, which I
realized I really, really enjoyed.

Um, I loved travel.

I love working with people with their
horses and their facility and giving them

license to learn the Farik Newgen game.

, , , but you know, the pandemic
slowed all of that down.

But what I did was that I invested
much more into our staff here

and that, and our horses here.

And, , we have some really brilliant
humans working here and they're doing

better work than I've ever done because
of the work that has been done in the past

because of spending, what, 7, 8, 9 years
with Horse Boy Method and, , and, and,

uh, and traveling around and seeing other
world class programs like Miss Kenneth.

, so I think that mentoring has been
some of the most satisfying work

I've ever done because I get to
sit here and watch it bear fruit.

Mm-hmm.

, and then.

We, we grew a job training program for
young adults with autism and got that

funded through a regional center here.

And, um, most people in this field,
uh, especially if you're a nonprofit,

you will get a certain group of
people who, I lost you again.

Better?

Yeah.

Got you back.

Good.

Can you hear me okay?

Yeah.

Uhhuh.

? Yeah.

Okay.

, most people in the field, uh, most
people in the field are going to

get offers of people to volunteer.

People who are, are a, , it's usually
gonna be women in their forties, fifties.

, people who want to be back around horses,
haven't been around horses for a while.

Um, they can be a tricky
group to manage as volunteers.

They have expectations, they
have needs, they have, um, rules.

Um, most of our young adults in our job
training program have been therapied out.

Like you said, people who, , have
been told you are not able to do this.

You are not good at this.

You are not quick at this.

You, there's this wrong with
you that, wrong with you.

Putting them in a position of
power to the supervise volunteers.

You put autistic young people
in charge of bossy horsey women.

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

Do you have this on video?

with the ukulele soundtrack?

. Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It is really amazing.

So the, the authors are training
the neurotypicals effect.

Mm-hmm.

, this is what it comes down to.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

good author.

And the care that they take, um, the,
uh, uh, it can be pretty brutal at times.

Uh, um mm-hmm.

and I, I, I would to come and watch this

and it may sound cruel,
but how cruel is it that.

Yeah.

Uh, it's just a role reversal.

Mm-hmm.

and it's, it's, it's really beautiful.

And watching, watching the person
who is in charge of, of training

the neurotypical people, watching
that kind of brutal supervision

soften over time is really special.

Really, really, really, really special.

, and it's, it's one of the
things I'm quite proud of.

Would you say that's the thing
you're the most proud of?

This, this, , employment step?

I think just developing our staff
period, you know, and staff meaning, you

know, including our job training people
has been the thing I'm most proud of.

Yeah.

And you, you talked about
new locations, um mm-hmm.

I happen to know because you told
me, , that your half Moon Bay,

your original location mm-hmm.

is about to change.

Mm-hmm.

in a rather exciting way.

Really an exciting way.

Thank you.

Could you tell us about that please?

So we, , we have worked a deal, , in our
area of Coastal Bay Area, California.

Um, there is a subset of the National
Park system called the Golden Gate

National Recreation Area, and it's a
sum total of I think eight or nine.

Big pieces of property, , from Sonoma,
which is about 80 miles north of us.

, this piece of property we're gonna talk
about is the southern most part, but it

includes the Marin Headlands, which is
the north part of the Golden Gate Bridge.

, it includes, , a lot of the,
the North Coast in Marin County.

, the Presidio of San Francisco is part of
the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.

, and then this piece of property
that we're moving to is called the

Rancho Corral Del Tierra, and it's
4,200 acres of coastal California.

Um, can you see the ocean?

And you can, you can.

, yeah, so it's coastal.

, Monte Mountain, we hiked it actually last
week, is an 1800 foot vertical gain to

the top with a view of the entire Bay
Area, including, um, Mount Tamo Pius,

Mount Hamilton, the top of the Golden Gate
Bridge, and all the way down to Pescadero.

If you look on a map, it's
some of the most stunning

landscape you can ever imagine.

, and the, the, the trails are maintained
by the Department of the Interior.

, there's actually a state part
right next door, so it's even more

than 4,200 acres worth of trails.

And you can access all this with your,
with your autistic clients, with your.

Good Lord.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we are, we're, um, right
now the herd is split.

We have six horses here in
half Moon Bay and, , six in

the Rancho Corral, Del Tierra.

And so we do sessions all day and
then we run over and we just get, and

it's, it's mostly the thoroughbreds
that are at the Rancho right now,

getting them out on the trail and just
getting used to, you know, there's

gonna be loose dogs cuz it's a park.

There's gonna be mountain bikes, , and,
, just exploring trail loops that are gonna

be appropriate for different clients.

, we can actually in about 10 minutes ride
from the, from where the horses are, we

can be at the local elementary school.

So we're looking at, um,
engaging programs there.

Um, parents can go for a hike and a
picnic while their family members ride.

, it is, you know, the ability to get out
into stunningly beautiful natural spaces.

is, , is so exciting.

So this is so exciting.

This is, this is genius because,
, obviously for so many of us in

the field, the idea of a barn and
the barn has the land that it has.

Mm-hmm.

might be large, might be small.

Mm-hmm.

, but usually the, , the program is
contained often in an arena which isn't,

you know, ideal cause it's a sterile
environment and you are now able to get

out into all this public land with your.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

And that was the thing is, you
know, this is Silicon Valley, so,

, real estate is cost-prohibitive.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, and, uh, and it's, uh, you know,
nobody was jumping up and wanting

to give us 20 acres, and even if
they did, as you know, um, just

maintaining your own trails Yeah.

Suddenly takes away so
much from your program.

Yeah.

Um, and, um, so now somebody else has
to manage the trails and maintain them.

Um, and we can focus on programs
and we can focus on horse care.

And we can focus on, on, on just
getting people access to this.

And in property that is
meant to be shared mm-hmm.

and we're bringing a population into the
national park that is not traditionally.

You know, participated in national
parks, so the national park has a

feather in their cap that they're
reaching out to vulnerable populations

that normally wouldn't access the park.

Um, so, so perhaps it's really a win-win.

You know, you talk about mentoring,
would you say actually now?

Yeah.

To, would you recommend that, um,
people who are running programs reach

out to the public recreational land?

, I think so.

Organizations in the air and see,
can we do our work in these areas

because, , that's really where
these people need to be, right.

Is out in that type of nature.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. And we know that nature
deficit disorder is a thing.

Um, and we know that horses are
a part of the American heritage.

a a deep, important part.

And so integrating horses into public
parks and public trail systems is, is, is

an important way to preserve that history.

And we can sell that to
communities, we can sell that to the

organizations that own the Parklands.

We can sell that, , and , and be
able to focus our efforts and our,

and our resources in programs.

And I think it's really exciting.

Um, I think that doing really innovative
public and, and, and nonprofit

partnerships is, is a way to go.

And of course I learned that from the
great Doyle and who we will have on this.

Uh, if we can persuade him to talk
man as an allergy to talking for

those who he does who do not know.

David Doyle is, , and you
should tune into the David Do.

David Doyle is actually the
Wizard Merlin, , disguised as.

An middle-aged Irishman, um,
who runs the extraordinary li

skin it farm in county Limerick.

Um, one of the most extraordinary autism
and mental health with horses, facilities

that exists anywhere in the world.

I think we all look up to him and
I'll be definitely, , he just look for

where I have him on, on the podcast.

You do want to listen to David do.

Um, one of the things which, , we're
often talking about in this, , walk of

life is how important environment is.

And of course, you know, riding
arenas are often sterile, smell bad.

Yes.

Sometimes if the weather is really bad,
okay, then that's where we have to be.

But we can bring the forest in perhaps, or
put trees in there like we've put jumps or

be imaginative about how we use the arena.

But one was so much rather not.

And you know, you talk about you've
got access to this land and I can

just hear now some people saying, oh
well, but you know, we're, we are in.

Europe or wherever and we
don't have access to that.

And I would always
challenge that actually.

So for example, where we are
in Germany, um, we don't even

own, own our own place to it.

We're renting boxes.

Um, but the land around us, there
is free access on all the trails.

It doesn't matter who owns
it, you can ride across it,

you can ride into the forest.

So of course that's where we do our work.

And I'll say to parents,
okay, meet me in that carpark.

I'll be over there with
the horses to meet you.

And we go to this lovely spring
in the forest or to this , lovely

little playground we've set up.

Cause we hang silk hammocks from
the trees or whatever, or whatever

to think outside of arenas.

Um, and the fact that you've now done
this in public land, I think is a real,

um, inspiration for others to follow.

To please think we say, think outside the
box, think outside the arena, and think

outside of your own property boundaries.

, is there National Forest near you?

Is there a public park near you with
a swing set that you don't have to

raise 200,000 to put in because you
can just go there and meet the kids

and play there with your horse?

Or can you use the resources, the
outdoor resources that are in the area?

And boy oh boy, are you doing that?

Um, I cannot wait to to come check it out.

, can people, when I first met
you, , all those years ago, you were

operating out of a trailer in mm-hmm.

, a very confined riding arena, which,
or riding boarding barn Really?

Which did have access up a very,
very steep, very difficult to get up

trail to some open hill area, but,
you know, most of what was going on

was confined to an arena and mm-hmm.

And I've then I saw you sort of
expand out to a more spacious

property, but it was still.

, um, relying on what that property
had within its boundaries.

And now you seems you've expanded
through just sort of a leap of

imagination to a completely unlimited,
, natural sort of Eden type playground.

Is this something we could
all do, do you think?

Yeah.

Um, you know, I I, we had been searching
for about two years and I was pretty

close to a deal on what looked like
was gonna be a really nice deal.

Uh, it was part of , , a
sport horse breeding farm.

Really nice farm.

And she wanted to lease us
or sell us a portion of it.

, and she, she really wanted to
make the deal work and, , and

it just wasn't right in my gut.

And I, and I couldn't figure out why.

And, um, and David Doyle and his
wife Moura were visiting and I sat

him down and I said, you know, I,
there's just, I, I don't know why I'm

not feeling so confident about this.

And he said, well, I'll tell you why
you're not feeling confident about it.

You have 140 families on a waiting list
for services, and you would be moving to a

place that is as big as where you are now.

There's no room to grow.

And I, oh, you're right, . You
know, um, he said, you need, you

need, you need to know exactly what
the criteria is for a property.

And the property will find you,
you know, it's a square peg story.

Right.

I was trying to make an opportunity.

That we had fit.

And instead, I needed to reverse that.

And I needed to, I needed to
know what the dream was and

then let that property find me.

And it's a leap of faith that
I didn't like taking, I like

being in control of things.

Um, but I came home from Ireland and I
was waiting for my bags in the airport

and the phone rang and I had talked about
this property that we're, we're moving

to a couple of years ago with the, with
the woman who owns the, the lease on it.

And we decided that it
wasn't private enough.

And so we'd given up on it.

And she calls me and she says, you know,
I know that we talked about Oceanview

Farms, um, a couple of years ago, but
I can't get square peg outta my mind.

And it turns out that traditionally
everything behind the arena had

horses in it, but we haven't
had horses there for years.

What if we did a custom buildout for you?

and then you would have all
the privacy you need and have

all the access to the trails.

Would that work?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That would work.

So, so there you go.

That's whether you call that
manifesting or just dumb luck.

Um, it wasn't until I knew exactly
what we wanted in a facility that I was

able to find it or for it to find us.

Dream the dream and
let the dream find you.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

Where to live by.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And proved out.

Wow.

Out.

So if people want to come to
Square peg and be mentored in how

to create square pegs, or how to
have more square peg in what they

already do, um, can they do that?

Can they contact.

. They can, they can, yeah.

It's gonna be a little wild and
wooly until summer with us, you know,

moving and getting reestablished.

But we're really hoping by summer
that we'll be able to, um, we'll

be able to actively mentor people.

It's something that gives us a lot of
satisfaction, um, and, and it feels

like that's one of the, the best ways
to send those waves out into the world.

Okay.

So we will be putting in the
links, , how to contact you, Joel.

, yeah, with your permission and if people
would like to go and be mentored by the

amazing Joel Dunlap, which I certainly
have been, , I would recommend it.

, it seems to get one
to rather lovely places.

, if nothing else, it's a great excuse
to go, um, check out that property.

Um, so it's been an amazing story.

, it's been an honor to talk to you.

, and as long as I've known you, there
were still aspects of the story that

were unknown to me and gaps that you
filled, which I find fascinating.

What would you leave us with?

What are your parting
words of wisdom for us?

Joe, I'll done that.

Or square peg foundation for us
in the equine assisted world,

my favorite go-to whenever I am
confused by a horse or a family that

I'm working with, that I come back to
is, is three really simple words, and

that's always assume intelligence.

And that has guided.

through some big decisions.

I'll leave that open-ended and for
whatever interpretation or far fig.

Yeah.

I was just thinking, I'll try that
with my morning affirmations in front

of the mirror, look at myself and go.

But very practical.

Always assume intelligent.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I would agree.

Yeah.

Um, I never met anybody who was, or any
other organism that was unintelligent,

except in my own limited view of
them, and it was my limited view.

And when I shift there, I, I come to
much more compassionate decisions.

Mm.

Less frustration.

Yeah.

Mm mm.

Yeah.

Looking for the, the beauty of
rolling the rock up the hill.

Mm-hmm.

not the effort or down.

Yeah.

Or down or the walk down
with the nice sea view.

With the nice sea view.

Yeah.

All right.

Well thank you Joel.

, it's late for you.

Thank you for staying up.

Oh, it's been, it's been a pleasure.

Yeah.

We are on different time zones.

, we will put links to Square peg down
fine hand Za method and other resources,

, from this plus how to contact Joel and
get mentored by her and go and check

her Amazing place out, , in the links.

, until next time, we'll be seeing you
in the equine assisted world, cuz

it's where we hang out for our sin

, Joel, thank you so much.

It's been, it's been, thank you.

Yeah.

Okay.

See you next time.

Okay.

Bye.

Bye.

thank you for joining us.

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