Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome back to equine assisted world
where we talk to people who are at

the cutting edge of this remarkable
profession that we're in with horses

helping people physically, mentally,
emotionally, spiritually never has.

The world of therapeutic stuff with
horses being as interesting as it is

now, now that we understand so much
about the nervous system, the brain and

knowing more with each year, as more
and more studies come out what started

as just adapted riding for people with
physical disabilities 60 years ago has

now evolved into a mosaic that can be very
confusing for many people, and our job is

to shine a light on the people that are
out there doing really interesting work.

So I'm talking to one
of these people today.

She's Shae Stewart and she lives in Texas.

And interestingly up until now,
up until this interview what we've

been emphasizing on Equine Assisted
World has been the work that people

are doing with people, with horses.

We haven't really touched much
yet, but we will be doing more

and more on the wellbeing of
the horse that does this work.

Because of course, is having to.

deliver well being to a human, to
a monkey, well, it's got to have

well being itself, otherwise it
will have no well being to give.

And we know that, that traditionally, in
the therapeutic riding world All that was

really asked of a horse was to be quiet.

But if a horse was aching, if a horse
was hurting, if a horse was sour wasn't

really considered to be a problem because
as long as it was just safe and quiet.

Now of course more and more we want
our horses to be athletes, to be

happy, to be healthy and to be joyous.

in their movement, which means that
they've got to be really treated

the same way that you would treat a
competition horse, just with less stress.

And this is something that's creeping
in more and more to the therapeutic

world, the realization cropped,
lame, arthritic horse is not going

to be able to do the job very well.

And also it's just not right to make
a horse like that, carry people around

on their backs or do that sort of work.

However, there's much that can be done
with horses that are aching in pain and

so on to put them right and to get them
good in their bodies and their minds

again, so that they begin to dance again.

And we certainly do that with
Horseboy Method and Athena, our

programs with a massive emphasis on
the work in hand and long reining.

And lunging when appropriate to muscle
the horses up and get their brains going

again and rejuvenate them effectively.

But there's more to it than just that.

And Shae Stewart, who's on today is an
equine craniosacral person who does this.

Very successfully all over the place,
and I first heard her on Warwick

Schiller's journey on podcast and
then was lucky enough to meet her

and hear her at last year's the 2022
journey on podcast in Washington, D.

C.

In San Antonio, she was riveting and she
and Jim Masterson were both talking about

ways of physical and neurological well
being for the horses that do our jobs.

And I realized that when I went and
had conversations with other people

out in the equine assisted world,
well, yes, osteopathy and having

the horse chiropractor out, people
are good about doing that kind of

thing these days, mostly still not
as much as I would like to see.

But the idea of craniosacral work,
it's quite new to a lot of people.

It's not new to me because when my
autistic son Rowan was at his most severe.

We did a lot of cranial sacral
work and for sure it helped.

We saw major neurological
advances as a result of that.

So I do think it's something
that any of us who are in this

field should know more about.

And we have an expert here
to take us through it.

So Shea, thank you for coming
on Equine Assisted World.

Shae Stewart: Thank you for having me.

It's so nice to see you
and talk to you again.

And I look forward in our conversation.

It takes me a minute to warm up to these.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

By the way, for the listeners, Shay
is famously and charmingly shy.

So my job is to dance around in front
of her in a pink gorilla suit and to

make her laugh so that she will relax.

So I'm just putting on my pink gorilla
suit now and I'm doing my little

dance and there she's laughing.

Good.

That's good.

So Shay to put you out of your
misery, can you help us understand

what is cranial sacral work?

What is it?

Shae Stewart: That is the most
common question I get, and even in

my classes, people ask me, how do we,
how do we explain this work to people?

First of all, there are different concepts
in within the craniosacral world, and so

it depends on who you ask will that will
determine what answer you get about what

is it, but it is a form of body work.

It's very gentle.

It's when you watch it, it may appear
that the practitioner is not doing much.

It's sort of like watching
somebody read a book.

There's not much going on on the outside,
but there's a lot happening on the

inside and we focus on in simple terms,
we focus on relieving compressions and

the craniosacral system, which is the
skull, the spine and the sacrum and all

the dura that's attached to these bones.

What are

Rupert Isaacson: dura?

Excuse me?

What are dura?

Shae Stewart: Dura is...

It's like fascia that attaches
to the inside of the skull bones

and it's what the spinal cord is
made of and it's all connected.

So, so the dura that's attached underneath
the skull comes out to through the

base of the skull and goes all the
way down the spine and ends around

the , second sacral vertebrae and that
Entire piece is, is all connected.

It's like its own form of fascia
and that's where cerebral spinal

fluid runs up and down the spine.

So we work on relieving bone
compressions and pressures on the dura

that help the nervous system
function in a balanced state.

And it helps the flow of cerebral spinal
fluid because that can get disrupted

with any kind of head compression.

That's basically like a short answer,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

So presumably if we're sitting on a
horse's spine, we're going to with

the best will in the world over the
years, put some sort of stress on it.

Just as if we're wearing a rucksack every
day of our lives, we're going to put some

wear and tear on our backs as humans.

Right.

And I presume that if
we were wearing helmets.

Every day of our lives or something
like that with a chin strap or

something, we would inevitably cause
some sort of changes in our cranial

skull to neck attachment areas, right?

And I presume it must be the same
for a horse that people aren't

necessarily going out to hurt their
horses and they might be trying to

look after their horses very well.

But if one is going to sit one's
monkey butt on a horse's spine

and put something on his head.

To help to balance direct and do
all the other things a bridal does,

presumably, even with the best kept
horses, there's going to be a benefit to

alleviating those cumulative pressures.

Now, yes,

Shae Stewart: yes, just the
nature of how we handle horses.

We're putting pressure on their
heads, even if we're the most

gentle soul on the planet.

We're still putting pressure on their
head if we're riding them, we're putting

pressure on their spine and their muscles
that attach directly that in the base

of the skull that attached directly to
the spinal cord directly to the Dura.

So, anytime a horse pulls against
pressure, pulls back while tied

has something holding their
head down, you're going to.

Anytime the fascia, the superficial layer
of fascia gets tight, you're, you're

going to restrict the deeper layers.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's just assume
that not everybody listening here

knows these anatomical terms.

A lot of people will know what fascia is.

But some people may not.

What is

Shae Stewart: fascia fascia?

There's there's different
layers of fascia.

A simple way to look at it.

It's like, a living, moving layer
that's the superficial layer is.

Like a skin suit, kind
of, before our skin.

The

Rupert Isaacson: tissue that we find
under the skin when we skin a deer.

That white stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it seems to hold it all in place a bit.

Shae Stewart: Yeah, kind of
between the skin and the muscle.

If you're peeling that apart and
you can see that, that layer that

kind of keeps it all together.

That's the fascia.

And then there's different layers of it.

So that would be superficial.

And then there's a middle
layer and then a deep layer.

That holds all the guts in place.

And

Rupert Isaacson: how
deep is the deep layer?

Are we talking inches?

Are we talking centimeters

Shae Stewart: inches?

It's deep within the body.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So to work down the levels, you
really, you would have to go as deep

as your thumb or as deep as your
hand or something like that to reach

the stuff.

Or is it not that deep?

Shae Stewart: In a horse, if you
went to the deep layer, say, like

the mesentery sack, which is the
sack that holds the intestines.

So that would be, I don't
know, a hand, hand width deep

Rupert Isaacson: or something.

I mean, it's good for people to get
these for the, by the way, for those

listeners who were not listening to
our conversation before we hit record

it's nice to live in Texas, the whole
Texas thing about holding horses sacks.

Yeah.

Sacred.

Holden Amholster Sachs again.

Well, shame on you.

I've

Shae Stewart: been out
doing that sacral stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: That sacral stuff.

So, okay.

So what is the job of fascia?

What does it do?

Why is it important?

Shae Stewart: Fascia?

Well, you can even go deeper and
in a deeper sense of fascia and,

and call lymph, blood, cerebral
spinal fluid, like a liquid fascia.

I

Rupert Isaacson: would say
cells effectively, right?

Hmm.

Cells.

Cells that make up the
matter of, of our organism.

Yes.

Shae Stewart: Yes.

It's like a living, its own living,
breathing, moving substance within

our system that, that moves fluid.

Some people say it's, that's what
our acupressure or acupuncture

channels are through the fascia

Rupert Isaacson: and.

So fascia, back in the days before
people thought about this sort of

thing and we just thought, well,
if you were stiff or old or you had

an injury or you just toughed it
out and we all grew up that way.

I think we've all grown up toughing
out our injuries and those of us

who've spent a lifetime on and around
horses have been knocked around a

fair bit and have bits of our body
that have taken some, some knocks.

One of the things which I realized in
the last, I'm 56 now the last time I

gave myself a goodly smash was actually
not that long ago, I broke two ribs,

but that doesn't, almost doesn't count.

But I, That's

Shae Stewart: a true

Rupert Isaacson: first person.

Yeah.

That was just in May, but it's
gone away now, so instant amnesia.

The, but I did something to my knee.

In 2018, which took a long time to come
right and I couldn't ignore it anymore.

The pain was keeping me up at night and
then I realized that the, the pain wasn't

really coming from the knee at all.

It was actually coming
from further down the leg.

And someone pointed out to me that
maybe having the fascia there loosened

up and stretched out a bit might help.

And I went to someone to have that done.

And.

Indeed, the pain went away and
when it comes back, I sort of now

know what to do to do that thing
in the side of my side of my calf.

So I realized firsthand that as an older.

rider.

How useful and important these
things could be, which made me

think about my horses, of course.

And I'd always been, you know, someone
who would get the back quack out.

I like to have the chiropractor come
to look at my horses every six weeks

or so, because they do a lot of work.

I like to give them the TLC I can
give them just because I love them.

But I am now leaning more towards doing
stuff with their with their cranios

their their cerebral spinal fluid,
which of course is the craniosacral

work, because through one of our
programs, Movement Method, we've

realized the importance of this.

Can you talk to us about craniosacral
fluid and what its job is?

In the mammalian body is and why it's
so important that it has a free flow

backwards and forwards along the spine,

Shae Stewart: Cerebral spinal fluid.

Well, to backtrack a little bit,
the, the craniosacral, the form

of craniosacral that I focus
on is biodynamic craniosacral.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: What

Shae Stewart: does that mean?

We, we get deep into the fluid body.

So we, we do cover a lot of
embryology when we're studying.

And we, so the way we look at the
body is when you're an embryo.

We're a fluid filled sack and this fluid
has intelligence and this intelligence is

us that we, we basically create ourselves.

So, this intelligence knows what
we're going to be, what we're going to

form into and so the biodynamic work.

And

Rupert Isaacson: this is not
what people would call DNA.

That's it codes that are coming
in to program program us up fluid.

Shae Stewart: We, we studied embryology
specifically within the 1st, 21 days

or so before genes kick in before.

Before all that comes in.

So it's like a deeper intelligence and
this, this motion that creates us from

our fluids is, is within us as adults, so.

So embryology is not something
that just happened to us.

It's some, we created ourselves
and, and our fluids have a wisdom.

So in, in the biodynamic world, we
look at the body as a fluid body.

And this the innate wisdom is inside that.

And we just help, help the, our body
find this origin, their origins.

Basically, so go ahead.

Yeah, we do go a little deeper than
cerebral spinal fluid, but cerebral

spinal fluid is it's formed in the
ventricles and which are pockets inside

of our brain and it comes from blood.

So, the blood goes through the cord
plexus into the ventricles, which.

Which are like where there's four of them.

So we've got like four pockets inside of
our brain inside of our head or skull and

blood comes through and it forms cerebral
spinal fluid within these ventricles

and then it goes down into the spine.

It's a, it's a zero net gravity.

So it's floating, it floats
our nervous system and it helps

cushion our brain and it's.

A transmitter of signals.

It sends signals throughout our body.

It helps our body detox at
night when we're sleeping.

That's a lot of the times
when the detox happens.

You have to forgive me because I'm still a
little jet lagged, so my words get stuck.

Rupert Isaacson: You've been
blocking that cerebral spinal fluid

sitting in a cramped airplane seat.

Shae Stewart: Yeah, it got,
it had too much pressure.

It's not, it's not flowing well right now.

So it transmits nutrients.

It transmits it's, if you think
about water, like what does water do?

Transmits.

electricity.

It receives information and
transmits it throughout the body.

So cerebral spinal fluid nourishes
our nervous system and helps, helps

it eliminate the toxins from the day.

Rupert Isaacson: And presumably we excrete
it out with our pee, with our sweat, with

our tears, with our, through our blood.

Okay.

And then we create new.

So do we create new
spinal fluid every day?

Yes.

And so I presume, I also read that
cerebral spinal fluid also brings the

neurons that, the stem cells of the
neurons that create our brain cells,

our heart cells and our gut cells.

into place, like almost like a
conveyor belt each day because we're

regenerating those cells every day.

Yes.

It's a very efficient conveyor belt
that it sort of brings them down

and they go kachung here in the
brain, kachung here for the heart,

and then kachung here for the gut.

And then we excrete that out.

We create some more cerebral spinal
fluid and the next neurons come down when

those old ones, the next lot of old ones
have to be taken to the waste basket.

With all that in mind, I could
now understand, I think, how

compression that might affect the
flow of that cerebral spinal fluid

might be detrimental to well being.

Would that be correct to assume?

Shae Stewart: Oh, absolutely.

And I have some, I know some people
doing dissections and they're looking at

this specifically with horses that have
had a, that seem to have a decrease in

their cerebral spinal fluid from head
injuries, head compressions, and they

have, the area seems a little dry and we,
they're wondering about neurodegenerative

diseases, even things like Cushing's.

Is that really about the pituitary
gland or could there be a component of

cerebral spinal fluid that's not flowing
being produced enough and it's, it's

a, it's a great, it's also known as
a crystalline matrix, a liquid light.

So it's.

We could also look at it as
one of our sensory receptors.

It reads our internal environment
and helps send signals

all throughout our system.

So if that's failing, then our
system isn't going to function.

There's a man named Maro Zapatera.

Have you heard of

Rupert Isaacson: him?

I have not, but I'm
going to write it down.

How do I spell Maro?

Shae Stewart: M A U R O.

Rupert Isaacson: M A U R O.

Zapotera.

Is that a Z A P?

Shae Stewart: Z A, let me see exactly.

I think it's Z A P P.

Z A P P A T E R R A.

Zapotera.

He is a, a medical doctor who,
I believe he studied biodynamic

craniosacral and he is.

Studying cerebral spinal fluid, and he
has some really great lectures and he

talks about how the neurons that are
cerebral spinal fluid washes over are

very similar to the same neurons that
are found and invertebrates in the ocean.

Okay, so, like, sea worms or
starfish and these neurons.

That these invertebrates have
read the oceanic environment, and

that's how they, they know what's
going on in their surroundings.

Rupert Isaacson: I see what you're saying.

So it's a, it's a, it's
a conductive fluid.

Yes.

Crystalline would mean conductive
that therefore can transmit

intelligences or signals that can be.

interpreted by the brain
into intelligences, right?

In the same way that an electric, a
sound wave sensor could, or a, because

all of these things are vibrations
at the end of the day, are they not?

The, an electromagnetic, an electric,
an electric charge is A series of waves.

So if that's being conducted through
something like cerebral spinal fluid,

presumably the cerebral spinal fluid
must be reading or conducting signals

that are coming in from other nerves,
other stimuli to presumably, would that

be to the autonomic nervous system?

Is that where they would, is that
where those signals would be?

Delivered to I think the Vargas nerve
and the, and then up to the brain, the

Shae Stewart: entire central nervous
system, our entire nervous system, but

he even, he even goes a little further
and talks about how it's cerebral

spinal fluid is a conduit of cosmic
consciousness to our physical bodies.

So not only can it read and send signals.

On the inside, but also on the
outside and what's coming in,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

I'm looking.

I'm as soon as you said Dr.

I began to Google him as, as we're
talking and he is indeed a medical doctor

and a researcher and a sports medicine
physician in Pasadena, California.

And yes, he is talking
about consciousness.

And.

This fluid he's I happen to know
he's not the only one in history.

It's interesting when one reads the
old Brahmic texts, and some people

say that there's the Indian texts.

And some people say that the New Testament
is in fact a, an allegory of what goes

on with cerebral spinal fluid and that
Christos Christ is the oil that goes up,

you know, two and a half days at the.

Okay.

Beginning of each month, two and a
half to three days, it goes into the

tomb, into the skull, and then comes
back down with consciousness and so on.

What I, what I do know is that, or
what I think I know, perhaps you can

tell me if I actually know this is that

if enough cerebral spinal
fluid surrounds the...

Pineal gland in the middle ventricle of
the brain, which of course all animals

have but, but we have a really big one
and it's called pineal gland because it

looks like a pine cone and it sits in
right there in the middle of our brain

that inside that pineal gland are also
crystals salt crystals which can with

enough pressure on them with enough
several spinal fluid pressing around

the pineal gland can then create an
electrical charge, a small electrical

charge, and that the pineal gland, I
understand, produces melatonin, which

governs our sleep cycle, and also, which
is a tweak on serotonin, so it's the

same chemical, but the pineal gland does
a little tweak on it to, to create our

melatonin but then if there's enough
pressure from the cerebral spinal fluid

around this pineal gland that chemical,
that melatonin becomes something called

DMT, which is what makes us see angels
and talk to God and that sort of thing.

And there are, there are plants
that create this, like the plants in

Ayahuasca that the shamans down in.

The Peru in the Amazon use and
certain types of things like

morning glory and so on that are
known to be heavy hallucinogens.

They call these, you know, the God
plants and some people would say,

Oh, well, in that case, no one
ever talks to God or see angels.

It's just cerebral spinal fluid
pressing on the pituitary on the pineal

gland and causing us to interpret
these electrical signals in this

way as light and sound in our brain.

And then other people would say, or does
it allow you to see what's really there?

Either way, it would seem to be.

At the very least important because
it's bringing these neurons into place

and also, as you say, acting as a
sort of shock absorber brain cushion

between the brain and the skull.

So it seems to do an awful lot
of things, cerebral spinal fluid,

and I could see how getting in the
way of it could be problematic.

How do you unblock it?

Shae Stewart: Through craniosacral,
so the biodynamic work, we we do have

specific contacts that we put our hands
on, on the skull, the spine, the sacrum.

When you get into the more advanced
biodynamic work, the contacts are less

specific and more covering the whole.

We believe that cerebral spinal
fluid is moved by a field of motion

that we call primary respiration.

And it's...

Some of the older biodynamic osteopaths
or osteopaths talk about how there's

a rhythm within our body and that
this is what moves our cerebral

spinal fluid and even moves like our
capillaries because our capillaries

are not moved by our heartbeat.

And

so some of the, I mean, I can
talk about the different rhythms.

If you'd like, please.

Okay.

I'll talk a little bit about the
history and how this came about.

So the and anyone who studied craniosacral
might be aware of some of this stuff.

The man who created the first school of
American this first American osteopathy

school, he was a medical doctor and he
spoke fluid fluent I'm in, I'm in fluid

brain, he spoke fluent Pawnee, so he was
part Pawnee and this was back when, you

know, the settlers were taking the land.

From the natives and his family was on
land that also belonged to the Shawnee and

the land next to them was Cherokee land.

So he, in a sense, became
their medical doctor, but.

I think they taught him more than he,
more than he helped because he, he

started to get very dissatisfied with
the medical world and he lost some of his

family members and he couldn't save them.

And he started looking at the the
way to heal a little differently.

And he started this school
where he focused on more

physical, aligning the body.

He talked about moving what he called
nerve force and although he, he doesn't,

he doesn't credit that he learned all
this stuff from the indigenous people.

It is pretty obvious that a lot
of this work came from them.

And he, he often spoke as when someone
would come to his, him with a problem,

he would say, I'll take, I'll.

I'll do it.

I'll take an Indian.

I look at the body.

So this was back when
they, when he, the, the.

European settlers, European land
robbers, , however you wanna call 'em.

They looked at the
colonialists, let's say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The colonialists.

Colonialists, they looked at the
skulls, a solid piece, and it was one

of his students who saw some skulls
'cause back, this was the after

the Civil War, and there were human
skulls everywhere, so they could

just study bones, and he saw that the
bones were actually meant to breathe.

So our skull is joined in pieces, we
have multiple skull bones, and they're

joined by what's called sutures, so little
joints, and he saw that this looks like

it is meant to breathe and his words
were like the gills of a fish and So he

started prying bones apart and looking
at how they're joined and he started this

lifelong study of how this moves, what's
going on in the body to cause all of this.

And he concocted a helmet where he
tightened different pieces of it.

That would restrict a certain bone
in the skull and then he would

make note of where in the body this
was affecting and his wife was a

great resource and helped write.

He wrote a book.

And I'll have, I would have
to look up the book's name.

It's out of print, but
you can still get it.

You can find it every once in a while.

It's like 400, but it's, it's
where he documented all the

different changes in his body, both
physical, emotional, and spiritual.

Oh, he did this to himself.

Did it to himself.

What was his name?

William Garner Sutherland.

Rupert Isaacson: William
Garner Southerland.

Okay, please go on.

Shae Stewart: He's considered
the grandfather of craniosacral.

So even though we've Learned that this is
a form of body work that has been called

been titled craniosacral by William Garner
Sutherland, although it's been around

since the beginning of time, since the
beginning of human time, we've had the

original healers who connected the source
and help the body find their origins.

there's a ancient book and Chinese
medicine where they state keep the.

When you keep the hips still, the sacrum,
the sacrum gets stuck, the heart suffers.

So it's, it's a concept that's been
around forever, but William Garner

Sutherland and, and most of these
things get passed down through stories

and you know, it wasn't written.

So William Garner Sutherland was
the first person who studied it

from his, his mindset and wrote
down what we now call craniosacral.

And he found, so he started working on
people in this subtle way, and he found

that, yes, there is movement in the
bones and he, he found within himself

that there was areas that would get
restricted when, like, the frontal bone

was, was not moving how it should, or
the occiput or, or whatever bone and.

As his palpation skills grew deeper,
meaning he could sense more in the

body on a deeper level, he found that
it wasn't the bones just moving, but

there was a fluid moving these bones.

And so he started working on the
fluid restrictions in the body.

And then as he, as he kept going in
this work, he, he started, he was

called one day to work on a dying man
and he felt a presence in the room.

And this is when he realized that
there was a presence that moved

our fluids that moved our bones.

And this is what he called primary
respiration, or he turned, he,

he coined the term, he called
it the breath of life because he

was a, he was a Christian mystic.

So they looked at things from the
Christian point of view, the Holy Ghost

Rupert Isaacson: effectively.

Yeah.

Okay.

Interest.

This is interesting because of course,
as you know, that in, in, in the

Hindu tradition, you have Kundalini,
which means the coiled one, you know,

energy at the base of the spine in
the sacrum that you can bring up.

And then back down again for well
being, physical, mental, and, you

know, and, and also, you know, contact
with the divine, the Bushmen of the

Kalahari, the San, Khoisan people who
I have a lot of experience with, they

talk about something called Ngum,
and Ngum is exactly the same thing.

And they describe it the
same and they have a way of.

Manipulating it into the abdomen
and boiling it so that it

boils as it goes up the spine.

And when you touch them, they
becoming extremely hot to the touch.

And and this is what they can then
sort of effectively burn your illnesses

out of you when they're in this state.

And of course, they go into
the spirit world this way.

So, but it all seems to come
down to cerebral spinal fluid.

When as you know, when my son Rowan
became verbal in the saddle in front

of me through, and I noticed that.

The more collected the horse went the
more his hips moved and therefore it's

softly and in rhythm, the more he spoke.

And I had this.

Explained to me as predominantly
the production of oxytocin,

which is, of course, not just a
happiness hormone, but a feel about

about a communication hormone.

But then I started also wanting to
find out how I could do that when he

wasn't on the horse and that became
the basis of something which we now

call movement method, which I'm always.

Wanting therapeutic riding people to
learn because of course, most of the

time that the person is with you,
they're actually not on the horse.

So what are you doing with
the rest of that time?

And I began to use a
lot of sacral rocking.

With him and then with other people lying
on the ground, you put the hand on the

sacrum and you rock gently and we began
to call it the diaper shake because

it reduced people to sort of a happy
toddler stage, you know, within seconds.

And I was giving a training.

I was thinking, well,
this is oxytocin, right?

And then I was giving a training
to a an autism dad from Canada.

And I showed, we were doing the
diaper shake part of the training

and he said, where'd you learn this?

And I said, Oh, I learned it from a
physiotherapist who showed me how to get

walking again after a ruptured disc and
seemed to work very well, but it makes you

feel really good in kind of a similar way.

And I presume it must be oxytocin
because, well, it is oxytocin and

serotonin, but it's more than that.

He said, Rupert I'm a, I'm
a, I'm a spinal surgeon.

That's my job.

And I'm not just a spinal surgeon.

I'm an engineer that designs
instruments for spinal surgery.

And he said, in my spinal unit.

Whenever anybody comes and has had
spinal surgery or if they come with

an injury, we prescribe this sacral
rocking that you're doing because it

makes you generate massive amounts
of cerebral spinal fluid which has

all these effects that you've just.

Detailed.

And this was interesting to me
because, you know, I had gone to

a cerebral a craniosacral, very
good craniosacral practitioner

when Roan was much, much younger.

And it had really helped.

She would do it to him while he slept.

And it really helped with some of
his more agitated symptoms back then.

And I began to put two and two together.

So.

Now, if we turn our attention back to the
horse that, for example, I see a person

coming in who seems agitated and upset.

I'll often try to get them to
accept this diaper shake thing

knowing that it will help.

And if I'm feeling in any way agitated
or upset or even have pain in my body, I

will ask friends or family to do it to me.

So I can recognize behaviors.

Where it could be helpful, perhaps
that's what you would call from

William Garner Sutherland looking
with the Indian eye or whatever.

Now you are looking at
your Indian eye at horses.

So let's say I bring my, I've got a
little therapy herd of seven horses.

And if I invited you to stay with me here
in Germany, which I'm going to, because

of course I want to completely plunder
your knowledge and I would wheel my

horses out to you and say, okay, Shay.

Cast your eye on them and do
your magic and let me know

what you think they might need.

What typically.

Do you see come up again and again, just
the kind of, is there like a checklist

of five things that you kind of always
see with your average horse that's been

a riding horse for X amount of years?

And do you have a sort of series of go
to's that you do as your initial work

with these things before you go deeper?

Like what, what, what do you,
what do you typically see?

What are the patterns that you.

That you've noticed that perhaps it
would be helpful for us as horse owners

and people who work with horses to also
begin to look out for, like, physically,

Shae Stewart: like, if I'm standing

Rupert Isaacson: there, because
they're going to show initially

anything through their body and their
movement as much as they would show

it through their emotional state.

Shae Stewart: Oh so probably
one of the biggest things I

see is a dysfunctional posture.

They may stand there.

You walk out with the horse and
the horse stops, you stop and the

horse stops and they may stand there
and, and look completely relaxed,

but their posture to me says.

That their nervous system is not balanced
and a posture and balance is a big one.

And I, I also see asymmetries in
their face swelling in their face

that, that may, may not be obvious
if you haven't seen them without it.

But the typical posture imbalance would
be when they stop their front legs or are.

more back behind them.

So it looks like they're leaning over
their forehand and their legs are

not directly under their shoulder.

I, I'll see the base of their
neck looks a little dropped.

The croup might be level
or higher than the withers.

The neck, their head may seem a little
higher than it should in a relaxed state.

And those are the biggest changes
I see in the cranial sacral.

The other thing I see are what I
would call a headache look, which

is the eyes, the eyes will be
maybe drawn down, narrowed, darker.

I'll watch, how, how are they?

Engaging with their environment,
are their ears moving?

Are their eyes looking around?

I watch eyeball motion.

Like, if when you turn the horse 1
direction, and they look, do their eyes

track smoothly and have a full range of.

Lateral motion, or do their eyes stop
at a certain point, and then they

tilt their head in a awkward position
to look, or when they're looking

to one side, do their eyes make a
weird skipping or tracking to them.

I see that a lot and usually I motion
has to do with sphenoid bone compression,

which is the bone that the brain sits in.

And all the ocular nerves run through
this bone and so any tension and fascia

can, can pull on the little holes we
called for a man that are in, in the

bones at the cranial nerves run through
any, any tension in the fascia, any head

compression can put compression on these.

I'll look at how are they holding
their tongue, does this, does their

mouth feel dry or does it feel too wet?

Is there too much saliva in their mouth?

Is there not enough saliva in their mouth?

How are their ears moving?

Does one seem to kind of look weak and
not maybe move well with the other one?

Do they move at all?

Some horses just may stand there and
their ears kind of off to the side.

I look at how are they breathing?

Is it just, can you only see motion
in their belly when they're breathing?

Or does their entire ribcage move?

Even the muscles in their back
should move when they breathe.

I watch, how are they holding their tail?

Is it soft?

Is it off to one side?

Is it, does it seem tight?

I look at their fur.

The hair on their coat should all
go in the appropriate direction.

And sometimes you'll see a weird patch
of hair specifically on the neck that

looks like it's growing straight up,
but that's the fascia pulling the

hair out of alignment, so to speak.

Oh look, does their coat seem dull?

Does the hair seem like it's tight?

And flat on their skin, or is it
soft and, and fluffy and relaxed?

I'll look at how they're, how
they're landing on their hoof.

Is it balanced?

Do they stand too much on their toe?

Those are basic things I look at.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And so let's say you, would you
normally see all of those things or

would you normally see, say three
of those things or five of those

things together in a given horse?

Do they tend to come in little clusters,
depending on the type of horse or the

type of work the horse has been in?

Shae Stewart: Those are pretty
common things I see in almost every

Rupert Isaacson: horse.

Okay, all of that together?

Mm hmm.

And so where, what's your go to?

Where do you begin?

Shae Stewart: Well, I begin with myself.

So, in order to do this work, you have to
get out of your thinking brain and be...

Embodied and horses are
highly telepathic and

I have, I have what I call a cycle
of attunement exercises that I'll do.

I'll check in with my breath.

Where's my brain?

I'll ground myself and then I.

Expand out.

So I do a meditation where from my
midline, which is our spine, I'll

tune in there and I will expand
out three feet from my body and

I'll expand out through the barn.

I expand out through the environment
and I invite this slower rhythm

to present itself, and then I
will go to a contact on the horse.

A lot of times I'll start at their sacrum,

or I'll start on their temporal bones, and
then I'll do that same cycle of attunement

where I'll, I'll check in with my breath,
I'll find my midline, and I'll expand

out, and then with the flow of this rhythm
that comes from nature, your mind kind

of naturally drifts, so I'll pull, get
pulled back into their temporal bones.

And I might hang out there for
a little bit in my mind's eye.

Maybe I'll track down their body.

Most horses will tell you
where they want you to be.

They'll either tell you,
don't leave my temporal bones.

And they'll, they'll show you that
by when I do leave the temporal

bones, they'll snap out of the zone
they're in and they'll glare at me.

Some will even pin their ears or
they'll, they'll toss their head

away, or they'll show me some
sign that they're disconnecting.

So I'll go back to the temporal bones
and they'll go right back to where to

that healing state that they get into.

And it's usually usually in
the 1st, few sessions with the

horse, they're pretty specific.

with where they want my mind
to be when I'm with them.

Rupert Isaacson: When your mind is,
say, on the temporal bones or on the

sacrum, what are your fingers doing?

What are your hands doing?

Shae Stewart: It's a very light touch,
like the weight of maybe a sheet of paper.

So I will wrap my hand around their
temporal bone, or I'll place my

entire hand on their frontal bone.

Some bones are a little deeper,
like the sphenoid bone is.

Deeper inside the skull on a horse
on a human, you can feel it, but

on the horse, there's a specific
contact and then you go in with your

mind's eye deeper into that bone.

Rupert Isaacson: I presume when you
were learning to be a craniosacral

practitioner did you initially learn to
be that on people and did your tutors.

Do you use these same techniques
these psychosomatic techniques that

you're talking about with yourself,
or are these things that you came

to in the course of your career?

Well,

Shae Stewart: I started
receiving craniosacral in 1989.

So I was 20, well I'm 55 now, I
was 21, 22, something like that.

And

Rupert Isaacson: why did you begin to

Shae Stewart: receive it?

So I was, my sister was a professional
ballet dancer and they were, you know,

they always were getting some interesting
form of body work and this was before

spas and massages were a big deal.

And maybe even before chiropractic, I
mean, chiropractic was around, but there

wasn't a chiropractor on every corner.

And I was having migraines
and a lot of neck pain.

And my sister recommended
this craniosacral therapist.

And I just moved to San Francisco and
so I went to see her and I did not know

what she was doing, but it felt amazing.

And I realized that my migraines were a
symptom of a dysfunctional nervous system

and it, it changed my life receiving this.

So I was familiar with craniosacral
before I started learning it.

I was also familiar
with tuning into nature.

And I was also familiar with I guess
you can say telepathic communication.

The women in my family were
psychically connected and.

Rupert Isaacson: Why?

Hmm?

Why?

Did they, did they come
from a particular tradition?

Or was there a story behind that somehow?

Shae Stewart: It just, I don't know.

My mother...

My mother died when I was 11.

So I would love to talk more
about this stuff with her.

She was into Sufism but that wasn't until
the last couple of years of her life.

My grandfather's grandmother, I believe
it was his grandmother, was Cherokee.

And so he had a, he just had a
different way of looking at life.

He hung out with With indigenous
tribes and the Amazon and up in Alaska.

And so he would tell these stories
and the, the women and my family were

just all connected, like they would
send each other messages and there

wasn't any kind of tradition or.

Ceremony around that.

It was just, you know, my mother would
say, oh, I need to talk to her cousin.

I'm going to go think about her and
she'd go outside and kind of tune in.

And then, you know, an hour
later, my cousin would call

and or whenever the phone would
ring, they all knew who it was.

They'd pick it up and go, oh, hey,
you know, so and so, or whatever their

name was without even saying hello 1st.

So that was.

That was kind of part of some of
my upbringing and then it kind of

went away a little bit when my,
after my mother died and when I

went and got my first craniosacral
session, a lot of these things that

I had forgotten about came back.

And so it was a form of body work
that I was always seeking to receive.

And it was hard to find back then.

And it was around 2006 or so that
I started studying it on horses.

And I met a lady who came to,
I had a horse facility and.

The Santa Cruz mountains in
California, and I was studying

all different types of body work.

And I met a woman who taught equine
craniosacral and to answer your question.

No, none of this was talked about
in those initial classes, but

that was a long answer, but no,

Rupert Isaacson: it was a great answer.

And I do see that there's an
indigenous tradition line coming

through here, both within your family.

And of course, within
William Garner Sutherland.

And that I begin to see
these patterns coalescing.

That are traditionally,
traditional esoteric body work.

That's now coming to
the western mainstream.

Talk to us about your horse background.

Why were you in horses?

Why did you have an equine facility
in the Santa Cruz mountains?

How did you get into horses?

What's been your horse journey?

I,

Shae Stewart: when I was about
six or seven, I met my first horse

and was completely obsessed and
my dad had had horses as a child

and rode, and this was in Texas.

And so they put me in lessons and
about a year later we were, had moved

out to the country and we had horses.

My dad, I had a horse, my dad had
a horse, my brother had a horse.

I had horse people in my family and
I was taking jumping lessons and

we lived so far out in the country
that there weren't many kids.

And I preferred.

Being around animals anyway.

And so that's how it started.

And I rode things, things kind of
went awry when my mother died and

I lost the love for much in life.

You know, it was like
just a shell of a person.

And then in my twenties, I started
riding again and I was leasing horses.

And it was a matter of time.

I just, I ended up with a horse
and I was had a knack for them.

I was just good around horses and I could,
I was really good at horses that were.

Troubled and heightened, I could,
I was really good at bringing them

down and I started I bought a place
out in the Santa Cruz mountains when

the area was depressed because of
the earthquake in 89 and right after.

I bought a house, the area boomed and the
place where I kept my horse, they decided

to move and so I was able to buy it.

It was really run down.

You know, I had, you know, I got a deal
because it was needed a lot of work.

And that's when I started training
and I had a mentor that I met.

Probably the late nineties
and he was just amazing.

He really worked with the horse's thought.

He talked to, he talks about directing
their thought helping them feel

better about what's being asked.

And that's who I studied from.

And I would spend like five
weeks a year in Arizona bringing

the most messed up horses.

You could think of, and because that's
how, who came to me, people, I was like

the last straw, can you fix this horse?

So that's how I got into hoof trimming
and saddle fitting and body work.

Cause it all, it all, you know,
you have to know you can't just

train behaviors out of them.

And I did that for 15 years or so.

Who was this

Rupert Isaacson: mentor?

What was his name?

Harry Whitney.

Harry Whitney.

Mm hmm.

Shae Stewart: He is in Arizona.

He used to be in Arizona.

He travels all over the U.

S.

and teaches clinics.

He's still around.

Yeah, he's still around.

He flies under the radar.

He, have you ever heard of Tom Dorrance?

Yes.

Okay.

He was friends with Tom.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

How did you, how did you meet him?

Shae Stewart: He, when I first moved to
the Santa Cruz mountains and first thing I

did was look up a place where I could ride
horses and like the first or second week

I was there, he was coming for a clinic.

Okay.

And I didn't even know what a clinic was.

This was before horse
clinics were a thing.

And and the woman who owned
the place said, do you want

to sign up for this clinic?

I was like, sure.

So that's how I met Harry.

Rupert Isaacson: And what were you
doing for a living at this point?

You weren't a professional with
horses at this point, were you?

Shae Stewart: No, I was not.

I was a flight attendant.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And you did that for a
number of years, I presume.

Shae Stewart: Yes, I got that job.

I was in college and I was knew what
I wanted to get into art therapy.

And I wasn't being very supported
from the parents, my dad and his

wife thought that was just nuts.

And so it kind of killed my
confidence of what do I want to do?

What do I want to study?

And so I thought, well,
I needed a new reality.

I needed a, I needed, I knew I was
not in a good place and I needed

something I needed to change my reality.

So I ended up, I knew a woman
who was a flight attendant

and her husband was a pilot.

And I thought, well, that that
will be a cool job to get me out

of here and go see the world.

And so I started that when I was 20,

Rupert Isaacson: I could also
imagine that it would lead to

quite a lot of exhaustion jet lag.

And if you were, if you were compounding
that with grief from this untimely death

of your mother, that at a certain point.

your body might take you by the scruff of
the neck and give you a bit of a shake.

Did that indeed happen?

And, and did craniosacral,
is that partly why you sought

out craniosacral for yourself?

Shae Stewart: Yes, that's the, it was,
yeah, the migraines were debilitating and

craniosacral was it was life changing.

It was like that part in the, you
know, the movie The Wizard of Oz.

When it's black and white
and then she gets to Oz and

everything's in this vibrant color.

Yeah, that's what I feel
like after my first session.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

All right.

Well, I'd like to lead the conversation
into some, some practical areas because

those of us who work with horses
all the time, we want our horses.

To feel as good as they possibly
can, particularly if their job is to

transmit well being to other people.

But also, as I'm sure you know,
in the therapeutic world, we

mostly deal with donation horses.

And people donate horses for a reason.

Usually they come.

Fairly messed up.

And so as I said at the beginning of
this conversation with Horseboy Method,

with Athena, with our mounted, with our
horse equine programs, we spend a lot

of time with lunging in hand work, long
reining work, giving horses crazy time,

free jumping, lots of trail riding,
lots of unmounted work, lots of just

rebuilding them and rebuilding them.

We get good results.

But we're always looking
for how to be better.

I asked you also about
certain patterns that you see.

when horses come in front of you.

So I definitely see a
certain number of patterns.

We now have over, you know, probably
over a hundred locations that

do say horse boy in the world.

And I'm always going out to them and
there's their new crop of donation

horses and go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I could identify sort of five
or 10 things that I see regularly.

Could I, and I'm sure a lot of listeners
do, could I ask you about those things?

Through your lens, and perhaps you
could give us some insights into

what could be behind them and what
could be good approaches for them.

I think people would
find that very helpful.

Could I start with the first one?

The first thing we almost always see is

congenital weakness.

In the loin and the stifle that
Lee that shows itself almost as,

as, as, as lameness, but not quite.

And we spend a lot of time strengthening
those 2 parts of the horse.

But we definitely noticed that
almost every horse that comes

in front of our eyes has this.

Why is that?

Do you think?

And what's your go to there?

Shae Stewart: I think
they get weak there from

a posture imbalance.

And how they're ridden and any kind of
head compression can cause this weakness.

It'll throw off their posture.

And so you get on them and, or
you do in hand work and you train,

try to train the correct muscles.

But if their nervous system is not
regulated, if they're stuck in a

heightened state and their nervous
system, you're going to be fighting

against that because it's the
brain telling the body how to be.

It's not.

a muscle that just needs
to be strengthened.

Where craniosacral shines is
the work on the nervous system.

So I believe that's where it
starts and that's where you

can see the biggest change.

I had another thought, but it went away

Rupert Isaacson: about that.

Perhaps it will come back.

If we turn our attention to
another thought, maybe that

thought will come back because I
would like to hear it if possible.

I'm just going to move up,
move up the body a little bit.

So there are two other ones,
which, you know, we often see.

Kissing spine is something we often
see thoracic kissing spine in horses

that have been jumpers and lumbar
kissing spine could be from anything.

Again, we have ways of addressing it and
sometimes we can be quite successful.

However, I would dearly love to know more.

And again, can you just tell me
your thoughts on, on those two

Shae Stewart: things?

Well, another thought about this whole
thing is, we, we, any mammal, humans,

horses, Dogs, you know, whatever
can have what's called a contract.

Who force.

So say, you know, horse gets runs
into a fence on their shoulder, their

left shoulder, and that force can
travel down through the body and end

up causing an issue and the right hip.

So pinpointing where some of these
things are from, this is why craniosacral

helps because we don't go in and
try to fix, we try to expand health.

And plus the, the point in the body that
might be hurting might not have anything

to do with where the initial problem is.

Kissing spine is very common.

I don't know if it's because now we can,
we have better imaging, we can see it.

You know, maybe it's been there this
whole time and now we can diagnose it.

It's usually the, there are surgeries, but
the surgeries are not a one and done deal.

Usually there's problems in the
entire spine, not just the thoracics.

Or the

Rupert Isaacson: the things that
stick up off the top of the spine

Shae Stewart: that stick
out from their spine,

So there can be arthritis in the actual
vertebrae as well with kissing spine.

And, you know, once again, I'll
take it back to the nervous system.

Yeah.

The fluid body, the, and even, even
when you do a therapeutic approach,

like chiropractor, chiropractic or
osteopathy, it's still, it's introducing

a force into the system and there
can be a ripple effect of that.

And that's where craniosacral
can come in and help help

those rhythms match up better.

The breathing rhythms in the system,

Rupert Isaacson: arthritis, of
course, you know, one is obviously

going to be seeing a lot of this.

Most horses that are donated
are older and have had careers.

So there's wear and tear on the body
on the cartilage and on the bone.

Let alone, you know, tendons
and ligaments to with.

Arthritis.

One thing that we have seen is that
what can appear to be really chronic

arthritis, we often find kind of, at
least symptomatically, kind of goes away.

When we do a lot of gentle in hand
work, we, we find the same thing with

a lot of the kissing spine issues,
but we have to take some time over it.

This is not a rushed process.

There's that word again, the processes,
they're in process but when, when when

arthritis, for example, seems to dissipate

is in fact, what we think of
as bone deterioration, is it

actually more tightened fascia?

Shae Stewart: I wonder about these things
because I've seen one of the places I

teach is a YMCA camp and they, they're,
they have all their horses are donated and

they, they're all arthritic.

And the, the ease of movement that
comes, you know, we're helping the

body get back to its original source.

Remember the health, we're, we're holding
the whole system to help find where's

it not hurt and can we expand this.

Instead of trying to fix something.

And we're also talking a lot about
physical problems and there's more

than just the physical, there's
the mind and the spirit as well.

Indeed.

And horses and I've worked with quite
a few quite a few places where they

have therapeutic horses that, that
are donated and they come with a lot

of other stuff that's attributing
to their physical problems as well.

Rupert Isaacson: One of
the things which I find.

Sometimes troublesome about going
to equine conferences and such where

people are speaking is that often
it's held up as a sort of abuse if

horses have been kept in stables and
boxes now and that sort of thing.

And often the people saying this just
happen to live in geographical areas

of the American West where they have
access to an awful lot of space.

And one of the problems I have, it's
not that I think they're necessarily

wrong, but it's not helpful for somebody
who's, say, keeping a horse in suburban

New York, or you Frankfurt or London and
what's available to them that they don't

even own the facility that they're at a
boarding stable there, you know, and they

don't have power over the environment.

And so I started thinking about this quite
seriously, because a lot of a lot of the

therapeutic riding stables we're dealing
with were in urban or peri urban areas.

And why we couldn't just go to them and
shame them and say, well, you guys suck

because you know, you're not in Wyoming.

And so, well, we know we're
not in fucking Wyoming.

That's why we're trying to do.

That's why we're serving these
kids from the local housing estate.

Yeah.

So, how do we make it better
as best as best as we can.

So we started looking at how can
we emulate as much as possible.

Horses in a natural environment
in herds, if they have to be

kept in confined areas a lot.

And we work with a.

A really good urban project in Dublin,
in the middle of Dublin, you think of

Ireland as all green fields, but this
place is like right in the center of

Dublin, doing a really crucial service
for kids in a pretty shitty area.

And we had another place in the middle
of Amsterdam and another, you know, we've

had quite a few urban horse places and
I'm intrigued by these because they,

they suddenly are a real challenge.

And so they're getting.

the crocked horses and they don't have
much option about how to keep them.

So one thing we began to
experiment with was just the

emotional well being of the horse.

So we said, well, what
does that come down to?

Really?

It comes down to, they've
got to be in a herd, right?

And if they're in a herd and they can
touch up against each other but if they

can't do that all day, what's the maximum
we could give them and how could we do?

And then there was a curious.

They don't want to do the same
thing every day anymore than we do.

The axons and dendrites in their brain,
you know, become rusty, just like they

do in ours if we don't do new stuff and
novel movement and blah, blah, blah.

So we came up with this idea of crazy
time, that you could, in arenas,

you turn horses out in groups.

And you encourage them to play,
but you don't chase them around

too much, you interact with
them and you build playgrounds.

So if the horses like to jump, well,
okay, we will jumps and things like that.

But we also have other things in there
for enrichment, like balls that might

move or other interesting objects.

And then if they don't jump, well,
maybe it's poles on the ground.

There's a large element of choice.

They choose a bit like kids in the
playground, are they gonna go up

the climbing frame or aren't they?

But the climbing frame needs to be there.

But of course, horses are essentially
playful and playful even when they're old.

And, and playfulness
of course is wellbeing.

When some, when a playful animal ceases
to be playful, you know, it's in trouble.

When a kid ceases to be playful, you know,
that kid's in trouble or even an adult.

So, We encourage play and teaching people
enough tact, equestrian tact, to keep the

play going, because the horses actually
enjoy that interaction with the monkeys.

They're like, well, what's next then?

And then also to change up the
playground every two, three minutes.

You change the jumps a bit.

You change what's on the ground a bit.

You chuck a ball at them.

You do this.

You do that.

You put some interesting object there.

You take it away just so that
they're like, oh, what's next?

And we found that if we dedicated.

X number of hours per week to doing
this in these areas, which were by

no means ideal for keeping horses,
everything in the horse has changed.

Physically, as well as mentally.

And then we had to come up with, well,
how do you make this not a time conflict?

Because, of course, these stables are
seeing, you know, a lot of clients.

And then we said, ah, but what
if that was the session where

you're seeing the client?

And then what if, so
we, we now have a whole.

set of things we call crazy time because
kids want crazy time too and adults

want crazy time and it becomes about
teaching them horsemanship or it could

be about teaching them maths because
we can mark out the distances and the

heights and the widths of the fences
and all the materials that are the types

of wood that the jumps are made from or
the poles are made from or any number

of things that we can do and so that
that those crazy time sessions are paid.

So there's no time conflict anymore.

So it's a kind of win, win, win
the horse gets what they need.

The client definitely gets what they need.

And you, the facility owner get
what you need, because not only are

you serving your client, but you're
serving your horse and but it.

It was looking at the site, as you said,
that beyond the body, and we found that

the body stuff then obviously responded
better to the body stuff that we were

doing with the lunging and that sort of
training and the, the, the in hand work.

But really it seemed to me that what
we were coming down to was happiness.

And that could take many forms and then
I began to look at horses that were kept

in large pastures and realizing that
they weren't necessarily that happy.

They definitely, you know, it was more
optimal than horses that were kept

in boxes, but I began to see plenty
of depressed horses in pastures.

And that was intriguing to us.

Well, why would they be
depressed in a pasture?

Because surely they're getting
kind of what they need.

But it seemed to me that the quality
of the interaction with each other and

with the humans, if that was somehow
lacking, that could lead to boredom.

And which is a sort of
form of unhappiness, even

though they're eating grass.

What do you think about that?

This, this idea, it seems to me more
and more that the curiosity and play

are really at the root of well being.

And that this is something
that is not really looked at in

organisms of any kind really.

And where might this come into the
cranial sacral and nervous system?

What, what, what's going on with that?

Do you think?

I think

Shae Stewart: that's all a great idea.

And when I, when I trained and,
and studied with Harry, he,

he talked a lot about that.

Getting the horse make helping the
horse find interest in what you're

doing and be mentally engaged and,
and not stressed out or not shut down.

I've seen horses that lived in her.

Outside and pastures, but it
was such a dysfunctional herd.

They, they were just difficult,
difficult horses to handle.

And my place in California, they lived
in small paddocks cause it's, it was

on the side of a mountain and we did
the best we could and they, we rarely

had colics, the vets would always.

Say, why don't you have colics here?

The place down the street, they
call it every week, somebody's

colicking and there just wasn't that
much, there was not much injuries.

So I think there's a lot to
that, keeping them curious.

Changing thing up things up.

We had barrels in the arena.

We do all kinds of things with
those and where the cranial

sacral comes in as it helps.

It helps the body let go
helps the nervous system.

The body let go of stresses
inside the system that it that

it's been holding on to and.

And the craniosacral work is giving their
nervous system a safe place to let things

that have been stored deep in the cracks.

Help those cracks open and let
them out, whether it's you know, an

injury or, or some emotional thing
in there that's stored, that's, you

know, trapped in the system, so to

Rupert Isaacson: speak.

When you say in the cracks, do you
actually mean in cracks, like in the

cracks between the plates of the,
of the brain, of the, of the skull?

Metaphoric cracks.

Metaphoric cracks.

Yeah.

But I guess it is true, is it
not, that People say I don't,

do you think this is true?

That memory is to a large
degree carried in muscle.

And that's why people say, Oh, you
know, I did this yoga pose and then

suddenly there's my grandfather.

I remember my grandfather telling
me this joke, you know, that

I've completely forgotten when I
was five or something like that.

Do you, this, this idea is, I'm a bit
intrigued by what you said just now about.

That where the cranial sacral will come in
is that it helps let go of stored stress.

Shae Stewart: Yes.

And, and the, my training, we
look at it as stored in the

fluids and the fluid body.

So it goes deeper than muscle
memory, deeper than cellular memory.

It's, it's stored in the fluids.

And if you think about, imagine
that we have inside of our skin,

if we were like a water balloon.

And there's different there's
slower rhythms down in the deep.

And then as you get more
surface level, it gets faster.

The faster rhythms are usually
where the dysfunction is stored.

And the slower rhythms
can't push that out.

Because it's, it's trapped in there.

And it's, it's deeper
than a muscle memory.

So in a craniosacral session,

sometimes like I was working on
a horse not too long ago, and I

got as a sense of, I had a vision
of the horse just standing in the

pasture, staring out into the forest.

And I felt the sense of
emptiness, just empty.

About five minutes of the horse processing
this and I was getting this vision about

five minutes later, the owner said, I'll
tell you about the horses that just died

and she told me about how the two oldest
horses had died pretty close together.

And she said, ever since.

They died, this mare that I was
working on stands out in the pasture

and just stares out into the forest.

And she doesn't follow the other herd
when they go to the next pasture.

She just stands there and stares.

And situations like that
happen often in a session.

And the way I look at it is the,
the sadness, or I don't know if

I want to use the word trauma.

But the, the, what the horse went
through is processing out of the system.

And I believe that's why I get the vision.

And then the owner picked it up too,
without realizing what she was picking up.

Rupert Isaacson: When you get that
vision, do you feel, and when that

horse is exhibiting that behavior,
the staring, is that the sadness

going through its process, bubbling,
bubbling to the surface, and then

eventually being able to be released.

Yes.

And is your job to expedite that
process, basically, to help smooth

Shae Stewart: out the process?

To hold space.

Yeah.

Hold space to allow it to happen.

And by me becoming aware of it does
help reinforce the system to let it go.

Rupert Isaacson: Have you
seen a change in the mayor?

Mm hmm.

Shae Stewart: Yeah.

She, and when this.

I've had it happen.

Sometimes when when things release from
the horse's system, it, you may feel heat,

actual heat come off right under my hands.

It'll get maybe even
sweaty or these visions.

Of of an image of whatever
they're processing.

I've I've seen an image of
the horse pulling back and

cross ties and falling down.

And when it when it releases,
there's a shift in the tide.

That I'm surfing on in the system,
it'll, there'll just be a shift

and everything will slow down.

Rupert Isaacson: It's this thing about
faster rhythms and slower rhythms.

This seems to me to have a
parallel in brainwave states now.

So if the accepted wisdom is that
the slower your brainwave state,

the more functional in certain ways.

So if you're tied up to an EEG.

Machine that's measuring your
brainwaves, for example, if you had

epilepsy or something and they were
that if you were having fits seizures.

Brainwaves would be going very fast
and anything that slows them down seems

to be better and it seems that the
the main Functional states that have

been identified in a crude level of
beta, which is the sort of functional

cheerful All right, how's it going?

It's my job in it.

All right, mate.

All right, you're right.

I'm right then to alpha being okay
now I need to get Deep breath focus.

I've got to take that drop kick
over the bars of the goal for this.

I need to come into slow my brain, slow
my breathing, slow my, and that would

be measured as an alpha brain state.

And then if one went a little bit
further than that into a very meditative

state, perhaps even slightly between
sleeping and waking, that might be

a theta state where people report
getting a lot of inspired thought.

And then for.

When people are in deep REM sleep Delta.

And it seems that if people can
consciously go into Delta, like some

shamans and some indigenous cultures,
they hooked up EG machines and found

that they're in waking lucid Delta
in their trances, that seems to be

when they can almost bend reality.

And now.

Even further states, gamma states
are being, it seems the more they

go into this, the more they find.

And of course, these
are electrical currents.

And these electrical currents are going
through a brain, which is composed

of fascia tissue which is composed
of liquid, largely, and vibration.

Cells vibrating at a
distance from each other.

Is that what's going on when
you're doing your work, that you're

bringing those rhythms into those.

Is it, are you bringing those rhythms,
those, those vital rhythms, which

might be measured in a brainwave state,
might be measured in a heart rate,

might be measured in flow of cerebral
spinal fluid or lymph or blood perhaps

would be measured, breathing might be
measured in all of them at the same time.

Are you bringing those
into a slower resonance?

And is that what allows something
that you said earlier, which

I found intriguing, that

of health to be re accessed?

Yes.

Because nothing's now in the way.

Is that what's going on?

Yeah,

Shae Stewart: that's
exactly what's going on.

That's why it's so important when
you learn this work to understand

how to orient to the slower rhythms.

And there's, there are documented
rhythms that have been timed and it

might not be a rhythm that you feel
moving Because it's too slow, but

it's a total quality of that state.

So there's.

The long tide or primary respiration,
and that's the 100 second cycle

rhythm that's, that has been, they
find references of this and all over

the world and nature and science.

There's even slower rhythms.

So it's the same with the brainwave
studies, the biodynamic world,

the more people get into this, the
more they find deeper and slower.

They call them tides, but it's more
the tonal quality or the visions.

So there's even there's
a 300 second cycle.

1 that's been talked about.

There's a 20 minute cycle.

1 that is being talked about and there's.

The rhythm that we all kind of settle in,
which is a mid tide, which is two, two and

a half cycles a minute, and that when you
can palpate, and then there's a cranial

rhythmic impulse, which is a faster
rhythm and this might be controversial

to other craniosacral people what I'm
about to say, but the faster, the.

Cranial rhythmic impulse is not a
therapeutic tide, and it's not something

that the even the older osteopaths even
recognized, and in this day and age,

it's taught as a rhythm to look for.

But in my training, it's, it's taught as
a rhythm of dysfunction, a rhythm of a,

of a dysfunctional state of the nervous
system and working with the horses.

I did go off and do a 2
year, 10 level biodynamic.

Program for humans, but working with the
horses is what got me to understand the

slower rhythms because they live in that.

And I feel a faster rhythm in them.

Sometimes it's usually an area
that was an acute injury or.

A recent you know, fall or something
or a recent form of body work where

they put something in the system that
caused a faster rippling to happen.

Rupert Isaacson: How do
you feel that rippling?

How do you feel it faster or slower?

Shae Stewart: If it's a dysfunctional
rhythm, it's a faster rhythm and I can

feel it through my hands and in my.

In my sensories, however, I'm receiving
the, the, it's, it's considered a

perceived sense or a felt sense.

Would you feel it as vibration?

Would you feel it as pulse?

What would you feel it as?

The faster dysfunctional rhythms,
I would feel it as a slow vibration

or just an irregular motion.

So the bones in our system do have
a pattern of a healthy motion that

they should move in, you know,
like the frontal bone, the lateral

edges flare in cranial rhythm.

And so what I would feel in a
dysfunctional pattern, maybe one

side is not moving at all and the
other side is moving too fast.

So I don't feel that fullness
coming into my hands.

Rupert Isaacson: And why in some forms
of cranial sacral would they think

that the faster rhythm is a good thing?

I don't know, do they say it's a good
thing because you feel for this because

Shae Stewart: it could be the, the
original osteopath who designed the

program worked in the faster rhythms.

I have seen and some of the equine
osteopathy, they will feel if they don't

feel a rhythm, they go in and adjust and
then feel for that rhythm and it's the

faster rhythm that they're feeling for.

So they did disrupt the system to bring
that rhythm, but in the biodynamic

world, we work within the slower motions.

Rupert Isaacson: When I heard you
talking at Warwick Summit you talked

about a 50 second rhythmic cycle
and you seemed to feel that that

was fairly optimal or desirable.

Can you talk to us a little
bit about what that is and why

that would be a good thing?

Shae Stewart: Yes, that, that is
what we call primary respiration,

primary respiration, and it's a
100 second cycle with the phase

change every 50 seconds or a minute.

You can, you can say it's about a minute.

That is the, that is the primary
respiration is what biodynamic

craniosacral practitioners orient to.

And.

And this is what we're taught is
the healing rhythm that comes from

nature that flows through our bodies.

And it's measured in a 100
second cycle minute or cycle.

Tied.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm just
looking this up here.

The first thing that came up when
I typed in primary respiration is.

Good old Google.

The primary respiration mechanism,
PRM, tell me if you think this is

true or not, is a functional unit
based on the accommodative actions

of cranial articular surfaces.

Is a cranial articular surface
the bones in your skull?

Shae Stewart: Maybe the cranial sacral
mechanism, which would be part of

that would be the bones in the skull.

Rupert Isaacson: PRM has five distinct
anatomic slash physiologic components,

colon, the inherent rhythmic motion
of the brain and spinal cord,

fluctuation of cerebral spinal fluid.

So reading between the lines
of that is what they're saying.

If you're in this primary respiratory
rhythm that you're talking about then

your or the horse's flow of cerebral
spinal fluid Which we began this

discussion with talking about all the
reasons why that that's a good thing

if it's in that rhythm Is that the
optimal in terms of source health?

Is that where you ought to be
when you're a kid and things

have not yet messed you up?

Yeah.

Shae Stewart: Yeah, this is a, this
is the yeah, the, the source it's the,

it's where, where, where it's all at.

It's the original source that's
found in nature and inside of us.

Rupert Isaacson: Do we see these same
things like in the plant kingdom?

Do we see them in, in osmosis and
do we see them in photosynthesis

and that sort of thing?

Does it, do we, do we
even reflect it in other?

Shae Stewart: Yes, it's been
measured in the plant world.

There's I think his name, I think
his first name is William Seifrietz.

He was a botanist from the 50s
and he measured the you can

look up the YouTube videos.

The original videos are still on YouTube
with where he studied slime mold.

Rupert Isaacson: Protoplasm.

That was him.

He was the slime mold guy.

Shae Stewart: Yep.

William Seyfritz.

Rupert Isaacson: William.

I'm typing in William.

How do I spell Seyfritz?

Seyfritz or Seyfert?

Seyfritz.

I thought

Shae Stewart: it was
Fritz, but I might be.

Rupert Isaacson: Slime mold.

Let me.

Do I have to type in slime mold guy?

Shae Stewart: I found it.

S E I F R I T Z.

Rupert Isaacson: F R I T Z.

Shae Stewart: Cyphretes on protoplasm.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
tell us what he found.

Shae Stewart: He found that there was
a motion within this protoplasm and you

can see in the video it looks liquid
running up the protoplasm and it'll go one

direction for 50 seconds, pause, and then
it'll switch and go another direction.

And they've He, they started playing
with putting toxins in the mold

to destroy some of it to see what
would happen in the slime mold.

And they found when it regenerated
that motion, it didn't pick

up where it was left off.

It picked up with the rest of it.

And he, so he determined that it was
being moved from an external source.

Rupert Isaacson: Did he know, did he
speculate about what that source was?

Not

Shae Stewart: that I have found.

It could be in some of his

Rupert Isaacson: lectures.

And just so that people know what
protoplasm is, protoplasm is the

colorless material comprising the
living part of a cell, including

the cytoplasm nucleus and other.

Organelles.

So what we're talking about there
is the stuff of life, right?

The stuff that makes up one's
cells, if that is being animated.

It's interesting if a botanist in
the 50s was speculating that it's

being moved from some outside source.

Are we getting, is that what we call God?

Shae Stewart: That's where we can get
into deeper conversations depending on

what your source is, whether it's God

I could look at it as God.

It feels like when you step into
that when you step into primary

respiration, it feels like you lose
sense of, of a definition of body.

And there's a connection to all

Rupert Isaacson: life form.

The web rather than the matrix.

Is that love?

I

Shae Stewart: think it...

It can boil down to unconditional love.

Rupert Isaacson: It sounds like it.

When, when I've ever asked a a
traditional healer, I've worked with

different ones around the world, and
whenever I've asked them in whatever

tradition, whatever geographical location
they're in, could be as diverse as

subarctic Canada to the Kalahari to
Australian rainforest to other places.

And I've said, well, what is it,
this force that you're using this

cerebral spinal fluid, this Kundalini,
this chi, this key, this num, I

get the same answer every time.

What they always say is,
Oh, that's easy, Ruth.

That's just, it's just love.

But with a certain training
process, you can learn to direct it.

And I think I've heard that answer about
seven or eight times now among people

who certainly were not interacting with
each other over the internet, living

in Hudson, Siberia, or, you know.

under trees in the Kalahari.

What, how, how would we know?

How do you know if you're breathing
and existing in this minute cycle,

this primary respiration cycle?

What are the signs to
look out for in yourself?

What are the signs to look out for?

Shae Stewart: It's always there.

Never stops.

It can present itself, so to speak, when
you're in a more expanded state, instead

of compressed, narrowed in on something.

There are external signs, like when I work
with horses, there can be external signs

like a sigh, a bird flying by a breeze.

It's a very quiet state
and time stands still.

He totally lose track of time.

It's very connected.

It feels palpable.

So it feels like.

The air around us, instead of feeling
you know, airy and it feels, it

feels thick and moves almost like
a slow ocean and every cell and

the body syncs up with that motion.

It's the, the best place to explore
it is for me is either in the woods

where you're surrounded by trees.

Or in the ocean, you know, out in nature.

Rupert Isaacson: It's not really...

Do you know you're entering it?

It just happened to me
while you were talking.

You know, sometimes you do
one of those involuntary...

Mm hmm.

2 3 phase.

Breath and...

And you didn't do it because
you were looking to do it.

It just kind of happened as a reflex.

It's that release and you feel in
that good place, that's a return

into that primary respiration
thing, a more agitated state.

So it would seem to me then that what
you're talking about, we started with

the wellbeing of horses and therapy.

Well, but of course, you know, this is
what we're looking for if we're in the

therapy world in our clients, of course,
and of course, if we're, we're the ones

responsible for the well being of the
horses ultimately, and if we're also

responsible for as much of the well being
of the human as it comes under our care.

Hands are under our care as is possible
in that time that we have them.

It would seem that, again, the
horse can't transmit that well

being if they don't have it.

And we can't transmit that well
being very well if we don't have it.

So it seems to me that what you're
talking about with the cranial sacral

might be three fold useful for the
horse, for the client, and of course

for us who are connecting those two.

And what's going on.

If someone is, is listening to
this podcast and says, well,

okay, that will make sense to me.

Great.

What's my next step?

How do I, I've got a, I'm, I'm a,
I'm running a stable, I'm busy.

This is yet another thing
I now have to think about.

I'm not gonna get stressed
about de-stressing.

Yeah.

What is the least stressful way
that someone could go about.

Engaging with this equine craniosacral
work and indeed with the crossover

to the human that could cause the
least disruption to a busy week.

Like, what would you
suggest people start to do?

Shae Stewart: You mean like in their
own daily life or finding a cranial

practitioner to come in and help?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean
both I should imagine because

one predicates the other, no?

Shae Stewart: Yes.

I would, I would say look for
a craniosacral practitioner.

You could even Google a human practitioner
and see if they work on horses.

And I would even go a little further
and say look for a biodynamic

craniosacral practitioner.

A

Rupert Isaacson: biodynamic craniosacral

practitioner.

Okay, so.

What we need to do is go online when
you're, not while you're driving your

car, listening to this podcast, but
when you've parked your car, go online

and look for a biodynamic craniosacral
practitioner somewhere in your hood.

Yes.

Are there a lot of them?

Are they easy

Shae Stewart: to find?

They're probably easier to
find in Europe than the U.

S., but there is a school, a biodynamic
craniosacral school in the U.

S., so they're becoming more available.

Where is that school?

They're all over.

It's called, of course, I can't
remember what it's called, my

human teacher teaches for them.

I can't remember.

It's like biodynamic.

Can we look it up quickly?

Craniosacral of North America.

There's one in the UK.

Michael Kern has one in the UK.

Rupert Isaacson: Michael Kern.

Is that K E R N?

K E R N.

Shae Stewart: There's all kinds of people.

There's actually going to be
a Breath of Life conference.

And Colorado in September,

Rupert Isaacson: Breath of Life
Conference, Colorado, September.

I'm writing that down.

We're in Colorado.

Shae Stewart: It's in Estes Park.

Okay.

My friend and teacher has a, or had,
but it's still out there, a podcast

called the Craniosacral Podcast.

Okay.

And he interviews all the
leaders in the industry.

And you can learn a lot about it.

By going on his podcast.

There are a couple.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, go ahead.

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Shae Stewart: His name is Ryan Holford
and it's called the Craniosacral Podcast.

Rupert Isaacson: The Craniosacral Podcast.

And I've, okay, I found your Breath
of Life conference and this is the

Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy
Association of North America.

Yes.

Okay.

And then you say, is it
Michael Kern, K E R N, in

Shae Stewart: the UK?

K E R N.

He has a school in the UK.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And then I suppose if we type that in
for other countries, we might find it.

Yeah,

Shae Stewart: if you type in
biodynamic craniosacral, you'll find.

Either through the association, there'll
be a list of people, or it'll pop up.

Rupert Isaacson: And if this person,
if one found this, this let's say I'm

sitting here in Wiesbaden in Germany
and let's say I found, I will of course

quickly go Google someone after this
podcast is done and probably have

them come out to My Horses and Me.

And then my clients

is somebody, do the people who
are doing it on horses need a

special horse training or is it
sort of ubiquitous across mammals?

Shae Stewart: It's
ubiquitous across mammals.

I've done, cause I, most
of my training is human.

There aren't a lot of equine trainers and
there's specifically, I mean, there may

be a couple of us focus on biodynamics.

It's, it's a little bit more of
a deeper part of craniosacral,

but you can learn it on humans and
just think about the orientation of the

bones is different for the different.

I've worked on zoo animals deer chickens.

I've worked in all kinds of
animals, dogs, cats, goats, cows.

Rupert Isaacson: You have
a very chilled out husband.

Shae Stewart: He's
pretty, he's pretty calm.

He's got more, he's, he gets more,
has more nervous energy than I do,

but I can calm them down pretty quick.

Rupert Isaacson: So he's got it on tap.

We just, you just adjust
his, his frontal lobe.

Shae Stewart: I just start talking
slower and I could just see him kind of

Rupert Isaacson: You have a vision of him
sitting in a cafe with a beer in his hand.

Yeah.

Under the sunlight of
vine leaves or something.

There he is.

Yeah.

Great.

If people want to contact you
obviously you have a lot of insights

into this, particularly with
horses and, you know, in our world.

The set equine assisted world, we're
always looking for that win, win,

win, something that serves the horse,
something that serves the client,

something that serves the practitioner.

'cause there's also a lot of burnout.

It's, it's, it's it's not just the horses
that, you know, get broken, it's, it's

also the people working in the field.

How do people find you and contact you?

She,

Shae Stewart: I have a website.

It's equine balance.net.

Rupert Isaacson: Equine
balance, all one word?

Mm-hmm.

dot net.

Okay.

Shae Stewart: And I do have a Facebook
business page, which is the same along

with my name and I try to stay active on
that and write up thoughts and things that

people can think about when they're around
their horses or just in life in general.

And that's equine balance by Shea Stewart.

Rupert Isaacson: This is
on Facebook equine balance.

By Shea, S H E A.

Stuart with a W, Stuart, like the
Scottish royal family who were the

Catholic branch of the English royal
family of the same name in the 17th

century, who then launched the Catholic
rebellions in the 17th and 18th century

against the British crown, who had
turned Protestant at that point, and

caused the centralization of Government
in England to then regulate the British

Empire it was the Stuarts who kicked out.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

The, and that was the age of
enlightenment in in England.

So the, the Stuart dynasty came in after
the Tudors the French Scottish, that

was James the first after Elizabeth
the first, who was a bit paranoid.

anti witches and he was the guy who sent,
he was the guy who sent the, and didn't

like religious extremists, he sent the
first religious extremists out on the May,

a vote called the May Flower after putting
them in a prison called the Clink Jail

in the South Bank in England, and they
thought maybe we should get these guys out

of England and they can go do their stuff
to each other and the Native Americans,

so pack them off to the New World.

And so now they're considered to be
very blue blooded in America, but

actually they were political agitators.

In in England, and then he was the
Protestant line, and that was why

he was allowed to come onto the
throne in England because the father

of his predecessor, Elizabeth the
first had turned English, England.

Protestant so that he could divorce
Catherine of Aragon and try and get a son

with Anne Boleyn, which didn't work, by
the way, so we cut Anne Boleyn's head off.

And then, as they did back then, as
they did back then, repeatedly and

then the, he died with no male issue.

So that created a problem.

And there were two branches
of the Stuart line.

Sorry, I'm wrong.

He did die with male issue and he, and
his, his son was Charles the first, but

Charles the first was a secret Catholic
and fell foul of parliament and that

then the English civil war happened.

These are the Stuarts and
they cut his head off.

We were the first country in
Europe to cut the King's head off.

And then we realized that
that didn't do us any good.

We just got a different
bunch of gangsters in.

So after they had dealt with Oliver
Cromwell and his gangsters under a

Republic briefly, we brought back the
monarchy under the Stuarts, which was

Charles II, the Merry Monarch, who was
the great patron of the arts and sciences

and founded a little thing called the
Hudson Bay Company and a little thing

called the East India Company but was
also a secret Catholic and a bon vivant,

and he left no legitimate male issue.

So then there were wars, civil wars
between the French Scottish Stuarts

and the distant cousins of the
Stuarts that the aldermen of the

City of London would bring in to
sit on the throne at any one time.

William of Orange And people like that,
and all of them failed to have sons,

so eventually they had to bring in
some German cousins called the House

of Hanover, and that's the Georgian
period, those are the Georgias.

And of course the Stuart line,
financed by France, who was always

going to agitate a little bit to make
life difficult for England, would

occasionally field once a generation.

a descendant of the original royal line
to have a go at the English throne.

And the last one happened in 1745
under Bonnie Prince Charlie, Charles

Stewart, Charles Edward Stewart, who
rallied the Scottish clans and they

got within a hundred miles of London.

And that's when the British
government said no more.

And they smashed the Scottish
clans, cut down all the forests

in the Highlands, sent all the
inhabitants out to the Americas.

That's why the Appalachian
hillbillies have muck and

then, and Mack in their names.

And versus indentured laborers.

And then they went and ran hogs in
the, in the, in the appellations.

And if they were lucky, that's
what happened to them, they

weren't hanged or unaccorded.

And they created the patchwork countryside
that we see today in the British

countryside of hedgerows to create a
landowning, taxpaying middle class that

was loyal to the crown that, unlike those
pesky aristocrats with private armies

that would occasionally get drunk and
decide to have a crack at the crown.

And so there you are, Shea
Stewart, that's your history.

By the Cherokees, who of course met.

Well, because they, of course, met those
Scots Irish emigres who were thrown

out there by the British when they were
tramping up and down the Appalachians

and they encountered people like the
Cherokees and the Lumbees and the

Iroquois and intermarried with them.

Shae Stewart: You're amazing.

It's like walking

Rupert Isaacson: history book.

It's just my shtick.

I like history.

There's many things I don't know.

I just happen to know that small thing.

It's my cerebral spinal fluid at work.

Shae Stewart: It must
have a really good flow.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I guess like
anyone, when it's interested in

something, it sort of perks up a bit.

Yeah.

Including...

I find the whole subject of cerebral
spinal fluid fascinating, and the

further I go into it, the more I do see
that does indeed seem that the mystic

core of all religions in the world
seem to deal with Thank you very much.

Allegories around this process of cerebral
spinal fluid and the middle ventricle

of the brain and the pineal gland and
the interplay between the pineal and the

pituitary gland and so on and so forth.

And I really would encourage listeners
to dive down that rabbit hole

because it informs daily life in a
really interesting way because daily

life is the rhythms of one's body.

I mean, what else can it be really?

And therefore the rhythm
of our horses bodies.

And it makes it all a bit more
interesting than just saying

he's got stiffness in the stifle.

Yes.

I love your approach of saying, well, yes,
he does have a stiffness in the siphon.

And yes, we can look at things that
will ameliorate that on a, on a

muscular and even fascial viewpoint.

But I love the idea that you have, that
you're talking about of going deeper than

that and saying, ah, but if those joints
and those fascia themselves are being

governed by a flow of effectively liquid.

Within the body, which we're all composed
of, which we know we're composed of.

We know we're all mostly water.

And then if we can get that flow,
right, then a lot of those things

are going to fix themselves.

I mean, that does make sense
because if the, if, if the fluids

around my stiff leg from that.

Wrench that it got back in 2018 are
held in a liquid that is not blocked,

then it's going to ease that stiffness.

And that does make sense to me.

It makes absolute sense to me.

But I've seen it at work.

I've seen good cerebral craniosacral
people at work, and that's why I was.

Wanting to get you on here.

Because I think with with we horse people,
we we've been looking at things from a

sort of anatomical veterinary viewpoint
for a long time, which while useful

and helpful is not the whole picture.

And there are other other forces at work.

And what's interesting too is,
as you say, that the people that

came up with this were doctors.

And a lot of the best vets I know
look very closely at the stuff that

you're talking about because with their
knowledge of anatomy and physiology,

they're not coming at it with prejudice.

They're coming at it from
a practical viewpoint.

So if people go to equinebalance.

net Or they go on Facebook and they see
equine balance by Shea Stewart, not the

Shea Stewart that challenged the British
crown, but the Shea Stewart that's

going to make your horse feel better.

So that your horse will then be able
to cavalry charge the British better

and knock those red coats over.

What would be, we've now gone
about the length of a podcast.

There are more things I would like
to ask you, particularly about the

psychic spiritual side of it all.

And I'm sure that a lot of the listeners
will have questions, I'm going to

encourage those listeners and by all
means send your questions direct to Shay

because you'll find her on that website.

But if you also direct questions
to me, then I can collect those

questions, and we can have her back on.

Would you?

Shae Stewart: There, there are so much
more we could talk about how horses

hold human trauma or human issues.

Yeah, there's so much more

Rupert Isaacson: we definitely we
definitely have to have that one that

sounds like two hours right there Yes.

All right, then.

I'm officially asking you.

Would you please come back and talk about?

Okay,

Shae Stewart: I could talk about
this stuff all day every day.

And so I'm always happy when
there's someone interested

Rupert Isaacson: How do
horses hold human trauma?

And what can we do about it?

Okay, we need to know.

In that case, would you, would
you consent to come on sometime

again in the next three months?

Because I'm now Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alright, so let's just
ask the listeners quickly.

Hey listeners, do you want to
learn how horses hold human trauma?

What we can do about it.

Whoa.

That was like deafening.

Yeah, I've

Shae Stewart: heard that.

Yeah.

We could talk about how things are
held in other, you know, I, I, I can

talk about experiences I've had with
receiving craniosacral and things

I went in that I thought I was.

Helping, and it ended up being from
something completely different.

We can talk about psychic, spiritual
stuff, visions of, of all kinds of

stuff that there's all kinds of stories

Rupert Isaacson: around that.

Okay, we'll go firmly into the woo.

Okay.

Yeah, definitely.

All right.

It's official.

I'd like to do it before
Christmas if possible.

Can we?

Yeah, you're busy.

Shae Stewart: Yeah, I can
always find time somewhere.

So yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Grand.

All right.

Well, I shall look forward to it.

Shay, thank you so much for this.

Massively enlightening.

I'm going to go and consider my horses.

Cranial sacral fluid.

And I'm going to look for a practitioner
and I'm going to see if I can coax

you out to help me a little bit.

Cause I know you come back and
forth from Europe a little bit.

I'm grateful.

Thank you very much for coming on.

I'm, I'm

Shae Stewart: grateful.

This was such a joy and such a
treat and such an honor as well.

So I really appreciate your
interest in asking me and this.

Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: This was great.

I'm sure we all feel honored too.

So round two will be within about
probably 10 weeks or so chaps.

So, buckle up.

We'll go into how horses hold
human trauma because how can they

not?

How can they not know
what we can do about it?

Because that's our Yeah.

The better my horses feel, the
better they can help others.

Yes.

And to do that in a way without guilt
and shame, I mean, that, that, that's

something that I found, you know,
off putting sometimes when talking to

people that are or claim to be animal
communicators, where, where I'm skeptical

of the human, not, not of the fact that
people can communicate with animals.

I think that people absolutely
can, but I'm not sure that

everyone who says they can can.

And the, the, the people who
say they can, and there's that,

there's that slight note of.

And it's because you suck.

Smacks of manipulation to me
because it's one of those things

that it's, it's intangible.

You can't prove it.

You can't, you know, so you, what one
could use that in a manipulative way.

If I wasn't coming from a pure place
that said, I've also seen shamans in the

Kalahari turn themselves into leopards.

We can talk about that.

You know, and what, what that,
so it's not that it can't happen.

But what they would say the animal is
saying is usually got nothing to do

with something a human is doing wrong.

You know, it's, it's a
bigger picture than that.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Shae Stewart: it is a much bigger picture.

And 1 thing everyone can could go
out and do today is take some time,

get out of your thinking brain, get
into your heart space and put your

hand on your heart on your horse
and just expand your heart space.

And watch and see what

Rupert Isaacson: happens.

I'm going to do that tomorrow.

Anywhere on the horse is good?

Anywhere they accept the touch?

Yep,

Shae Stewart: wherever
they're comfortable.

Okay.

I tend to, I, I like in the back on
their pelvis, you can touch them there.

That way you're not zeroed
in too much on their head.

Hmm.

We, we narrow our focus too much on
things and that can, that can feel like

Rupert Isaacson: pressure.

Well, sure.

It's what predators do.

It's what we do before we
make our pounce and kill.

Yeah.

Shae Stewart: Yeah.

I feel it when I get craniosacral by
someone who doesn't know how to read the

system or expand out, I can leave with
a headache if they're too focused in on

the bone that they have their hand on.

Okay.

I don't like it.

It's too much pressure.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, do you tell them?

Do you communicate that?

Shae Stewart: It depends.

I, I don't usually go
to those, those anymore.

I don't, I kind of, the last one I went
to, I had the feeling if I said that,

I don't know if she would know what
I was talking about, like, if I said,

stop thinking about my sphenoid bone,
expand out to the horizon somewhere.

I don't know if that would make sense.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So that's what we're going to do.

Listeners, we're going to go to our
horses tomorrow, but I'll hand on in

a place that's not too monkey fixated.

So maybe we'll avoid the head.

And as Shay says, suggests,
perhaps we'll look for the...

Somewhere around the sacrum, if that
seems okay to the horse, and then

we're going to expand out, right?

Expand

Shae Stewart: out.

Don't leave.

Expand out from your heart.

Expand out from your...

Stay connected to your
heart and expand out.

You don't even have to
think about the horse.

Just think about that

Rupert Isaacson: space.

Okay.

Just expand out from the heart while
happening to have a hand on a horse.

Yes.

Okay.

And,

Shae Stewart: Tell me what happened.

I will.

Yeah, and anyone out there send me
a note at tell me what happened.

I like to hear.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

What should they send you a note on?

What's the email address?

Oh,

Shae Stewart: Shea, S H
E A at equine balance.

net.

Shea equine balance.

net.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Go put your hand on your horse in
not too focused a monkey intensity

way, check in with the heart and then
without making it too intellectual.

expand out a bit and see what happens.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then the horse responds.

The horse responds.

Okay.

That sounds like a good starting point.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

It's, this is a very difficult
podcast to press the end button on.

So let's think of it like a pause button.

The next one.

Because I could, I could
keep going all night.

I know.

Shae Stewart: I know.

I

Rupert Isaacson: could too.

But there's a lot to think about.

I'm going to go walk the dogs
now and think about this.

So you give me lots to think about.

Shae Stewart: Good.

Yeah.

And then we'll have more to talk about.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, well, all right.

Well, until then, sounds good.

Try and stay out of the heat.

I know how hard it is over there in Texas.

Shae Stewart: Yeah.

I don't even want to go outside.

I

Rupert Isaacson: bet you don't.

I used to live there.

I know.

All right.

Yeah.

Have a beautiful rest of the day.

Bye.

Bye.

thank you for joining us.

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