Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome.

, back to, , equine Assisted World.

, today we've got someone amazing.

, of course everyone on
here is always amazing.

, we've got Dr.

Rebecca Bailey, , the
Polyvagal Equine Institute.

, it's something new, it's
something cutting edge.

, Dr.

Bailey is at the helm.

, and there's a lot of
questions we want to ask her.

What, what is polyvagal?

What's this poly word?

What's this vagal word?

How can it help us?

What do we need to learn from this?

What, you know, how can this
help us in our practice?

, I think a lot of us are familiar
with the idea of a sympathetic and

a parasympathetic nervous system, an
autonomic nervous system, and these are

words that have been creeping in over
the years, and now suddenly there's this

polyvagal thing and what does this mean?

And oh my gosh, is this another
thing that I have to get right or

wrong or, , you know, et cetera.

So, so, so, Dr.

Bailey's gonna help us to understand
this and, , to bring in how this

can help us in our practices.

, I don't want to take away from, , Dr.

Bailey's.

, Knowledge of herself.

So I'm not going to do too much of a bio.

However, , Dr.

Betty comes from a long,
, tradition, , with horses and

of course with mental health.

, she is a east coast transplant that
moved to the west coast about 35 years

ago and has been working in the field
of trauma and recovery from trauma

and resilience for a number of years.

Has published books, , has been
on multiple, , media shows.

You can find her all over the place.

You can find her on, , Diane Sawyer.

You can find her on all these things, but
it's quite rare that we can engage her

one-to-one and get her to really clear
up for us what is this polyvagal thing?

How does it help us?

and what do we need to know?

so Dr.

Bailey, thanks for coming on.

Welcome.

Who are you,

Rebecca Bailey: first of all, Rupert.

I am so, stoked to meet you.

Finally, after I think you and I have
been, Plotting, you were certainly

ahead of the herd, but but been plotting
in the same pastures for many years.

And, I've heard over the years that you
and I would either meet and endure each

other or combust, in our connection.

So, I don't know.

Let's see what happens.

I am a psychologist who I like
to say was raised by a horse.

I think my first experience
in co-regulation was a

little horse named Locket.

I grew up back east, as you said,
and had two sisters that were

very accomplished equestrians.

And I was the rollie pulley
pudding P pie popping around

on the horse in the backyard.

And here I am all these years later.

So in 19, about 1989, I got very
into animal assisted therapy and

doing it as something, and not just
the dogs and horses in my life at

the time in my graduate school.

I was told after I did a master's
thesis, don't tell anybody,

you'll discredit yourself.

And really cool fact.

What I found back then, I didn't
even realize what I'd found was a

variable with women that had horses.

It was an N of 70.

which means a group of 70 versus 70
women that didn't have animals at all.

And what I found was a very, very
high, leadership criteria, meaning

that they had the ability to do
what we call military leadership.

And this isn't the bang,
bang, shoot 'em up leadership.

This is the ability to lead
from within and next to now.

Ironically, Linda Kahani wrote
about this many years later

in her power of the Herd book.

So what I had discovered with this
particular, master thesis I did, that

we who have horses who are dedicated
to understanding and listening to

horses have this ability to lead and
connect with them, which is really

at the core of regulation and co
regulation and polyvagal theory.

So take me back, guide me back.

Focus me back in, sir, as I go off into

Rupert Isaacson: the, I got, I
got like five questions that I

just wrote down for myself there.

I'm gonna come back to them in a minute.

quick and easy one, what do you do?

Rebecca Bailey: That's
a very good question.

I am a psychologist who
has been doing, extreme.

I don't like to use the word
trauma because everybody says that.

So I like to say extreme, complex
cases for about the last 30 years.

now I am the co-director of the Polyvagal
Equine Institute with my colleagues

Margie McDonald and JC Dugard, who
was a young woman abducted health

captive of which the horses brought
back into life, into regular life.

So I'm a psychologist, I am an educator,
I'm a trainer, and I'm a goofball.

Rupert Isaacson: Me too.

the goofball bit, not the other bits.

okay, so what is the
Polyvagal Equine Institute?

Rebecca Bailey: So the Polyvagal
Equine Institute is our attempts

and desire to, we maybe put a
different lens on equine treatment.

And I know we're supposed to say
equine something, something, and I

always get it wrong being a dyslexic.

So I just call it.

Equine interventions, equine, whatever.

I've never figured this
out for many years.

But what we're, we're trying to do, and
what we are doing is training people for

professional awareness and understanding
of not only themselves, their clients, but

the incredible colleagues that are these
incredible horses that they work with.

So for many years I've been doing
interventions with the equine work.

I've morphed like everybody else.

But what was really missing to me
was, was the understanding of the

dance between nervous systems.

People understand this, that as we were
discussing earlier, that do classical

dressage, they understand that piece.

But what was missing in equine therapy
was when you're on the ground, this

connection between the nervous systems,
what you bring in, what the horse brings

in, and what the client brings in.

So this was part of what we said.

We really want to push the field a little
bit forward in using, in, in teaching

other people about this modality, and then
also enhancing other treatment modalities.

For example, and I can say it
to you because you're, you.

I've had a few people that have
gone through psychedelic treatment

and have come here after they've
had months, after they've had

their journeys and surprise it.

There are people that would laugh who've
known me all these years, particularly

with my old Grateful Dead experience.

We ground them, post those experiences
and help them maybe process and

understand that experience in a
different way, if that makes sense.

So our program, our trainings also
enhance other treatment modalities.

Rupert Isaacson: What was
your Grateful Dead experience?

Rebecca Bailey: Well, I was the maid of
honor to the, bass player and his wife,

my ex-husband worked for them and the
bass player named two children after,

my ex-husband and my brother-in-law.

And then my horse, Dr.

Velcro, who many people know, black
and White horse was given to me by

Billy Kitzman, the drummer's, wife.

And so I had long, the eighties were
one big blur of Grateful Dead concerts.

And then I got my act together at the end
of the eighties and went to grad school.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so
there, there's something I'd

like to, to, to go there.

I, I didn't have this in my notes,
but this is interesting to me

because, not every listener will
be familiar with the Grateful Dead.

So, we have, you know, listeners
all over the world, so I'll just

quickly fill in the Grateful Dead.

Were some would even say are, The
sort of seminal 1960s counterculture.

But of course they went over decades.

but you could argue that they
were really the f the, the, the,

the, the, the spokespeople of the
counterculture, certainly within the usa.

And they came out of the West coast with a
type of psychedelic music and exploration

and people associated them with drugs,
people associated them with hippie stuff

correctly and of course incorrectly.

And that they were also purveys
of a sudden kind of Americana.

if you really break the music
down it, a lot of it is actually

Celtic with sort of African roots,
which one could say is Americana.

But they took it to a, a level
of sort of consciousness that

attracted bazillions of people.

And so the Grateful Dead concerts
were like a mo, a festival that

was sort of constantly going around
America over, over many, many decades.

And it's interesting how many people,
one meets who have gone on to all sorts

of interesting things, who had a sort of
seminal shamanic one could say, experience

or number of experiences through this
particular part of the counterculture.

And those who know me know that, you
know, I've, I've had a lot of experiences

in the Shamanic, and I would say that
a Grateful Dead concert, what people

called a dead show, was a very viable
shamanic experience, healing experience,

formative experience within the confines
of our post World War ii, post witch

burning, post Auschwitz, post, you know,
colonialism and everything else, culture.

so it's, it's very interesting to
me that you, you bring up the fact

that you had a, a grounding in this.

How do you feel, what do you feel, before
we go back to polyvagal, what, what do

you feel that your, participation in
this aspect of the Western counterculture

did for you within the horse and
equine assisted world to sort of open

your mind and heart to the greater
possibilities of what we could do?

What, what, what detail?

So

Rebecca Bailey: cool.

No wonder people were saying
we can bust because Absolutely.

I, when I met and kind of fell into
the connection with all those guys,

it was, it went about 16 or 17 and
very repressed Boston society and came

into this place where was asked to
see the whole world from a different

perception, getting to know Jerry Garcia.

Well, being part of that connection.

Learned a lot about, again,
again, how leadership is about

leading within and about and part
of the collective conscience.

And people like, you know, like you
say, it's funny, somebody yesterday

was saying, oh, but we're using
psychedelia now in a different way.

It's not a social thing like that.

And I'm like, you don't get it.

You don't get it.

These people there, there was, Joseph
Campbell used to come to the concerts.

I mean, there was this understanding
of the collective consciousness and

our responsibility to each other.

So, God, there's so many things where
we could go to, I mean, for example,

my great great great, great great
grandmother was hung as a witch in Salem.

And so I even in all of this sort of
shamanic releasing of intergenerational

trauma, I think what all of this that
all connected me to was an embracement

of the passion and all it's me.

Mm-hmm.

And I know if it wasn't for my connection
with those guys and the band and all those

people, I would never have felt that.

I would never, you

Rupert Isaacson: conjured
some names there for people.

Again, Jerry Garcia was the band
leader of the Grateful Dead.

if you dunno who he was, you, you
just do a quick wiki because you

could, you could argue that many of
the more progressive, aspects of our

culture emanated through that man.

Joseph Campbell.

Just talk to us a little bit
about who Joseph Campbell was.

Rebecca Bailey: Well, Jo Joseph
Campbell, was an amazing, amazing,

I think, what would we call him?

A Jungian, theorist and
wrote, what the heck?

I'm gonna block on the name nephrologist.

Really?

Right here?

Yes.

Yes, yes.

And he really talked about bringing
sort of shamanic concepts back, talking

about the journeys that we all go
on in our life and, and in things.

He, he broke into a society that
weren't counterculture people.

Right.

He broke into dining rooms and
living rooms and cocktail parties of

Rupert Isaacson: academics
and academics and

Rebecca Bailey: establishment people
like that who were saying, you

know, who were able to say sorry.

Were able to say, oh my
gosh, this makes sense.

This isn't dancing in
the, in the hallways.

and it's sort of all melted together
into this great big understanding.

I keep saying the
collective consciousness.

And so here we go to polyvagal theory.

We were learning about the mix of nervous
systems and how we all impact each other,

and how the collective consciousness
is the responsibility of all of us.

Mm-hmm.

and not going off into
any political realm.

Just saying these, this
understanding that my hand affects

your hand affects this hand.

And so that became the core
of the polyvagal work we did.

With trauma, understanding that
it's not the central victim

or survivor in front of you.

It's this system.

The parents, the friends, the, you
know, law enforcement, the judge,

all of this that are impacting the
individual system in front of us.

All the stuff that herds of horses
show us if we sit down and watch.

Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting.

I, I've had, quite a lot of experience
with, one could say wild people.

I lived with, bushman hunter gatherers,
on and off for quite a while, and one

of their central tenants, is that if
there's any suffering, any sickness, any

dilemma within the community, it's always
actually a joint responsibility, what

you would call collective consciousness.

That, and that's why everybody
must come together at the transfer.

And it could be, gosh, it could be
anything from someone's actually got some

major health problem to someone's got a
psychosis to, there's just a, a couple

who are arguing a lot and it's disrupting
a little bit the harmony of the village.

Or it could just be a sort of
general washing of the psychic

dirty laundry of the whole community
just to keep everybody cool.

but at its fundamental level, there's
this, this, acceptance that there is a,

joint responsibility for the whole thing.

And you don't hear this spoken about very
often in the west because we have, you

know, this myth of the rugged individual
and so on and so forth, and that we're

all just sort of out there, a dog eat dog.

But we, we know that's
not really how life is.

So, Talk to me a little bit about how
polyvagal theory helps inform us if

we're coming out of a Western tradition.

Okay.

And we're not just yeah, familiar
with this Ultraman thing.

How does this help us understand
and get to grips with all of this?

So,

Rebecca Bailey: just to go back, just
because, just so for example, 25 years

divorce kind of separated myself from
this core of herd of people that had

connected, built a different life.

My house in barn burns down
and the whole community burns.

And the leader of the BA Jerry
Garcia's daughter contacts me out

of the blue, offers me her house
for a month where my, and I hadn't

seen her, I haven't seen her since.

I didn't see her after she just said,
Hey, I heard you were in trouble.

So I, the reason I'm saying that is
that that just underscores what you're

talking about, like the responsibility.

It doesn't mean that I live next to
you and check in on you all the time.

It doesn't mean anything.

It just means that even from afar, I
hear you're sorrow and I help and I'm

there in some way, whatever way I can be.

So how does this commit
with the whole polyvagal?

So the polyvagal studies of Dr.

Steven Porges, who is the, sort of the
creator inventor researcher of polyvagal

theory, really looks about how it kind
of, the way I boil it down really boils

down to this very simple aspect that.

Human beings have the strive,
have the drive to survive.

And everything we do is around
the service of survival.

And as the vagal pathways evolved over
millions and millions of years, this

social engagement pathway in what we call
the ventral vagal developed, and this

social engagement pathway is the core of
compassion and curiosity and connection.

So how this all fits is to really
understand that in our western view,

we've toppled a little bit in my mind
over in therapeutic interventions

into, you know, brain stuff.

We do bottom down, meaning from
the brain down to the body.

Well, what polyvagal theory says, and at
least from my interpretation, and I really

do believe it's a growing fields where,
you know, we've gotta be very careful

to not say you're wrong and I'm right.

But from our perception with the horses,
when I say polyvagal, it's the top down,

the top, the bottom up learning is at the
core of the essence of the work we do.

Meaning that it's in how we get
into our body to feel it in the

body and then respond in, in a.

Slow manner or fast, depending on
whether we're in a survival state,

but in order to then process it.

And often we process based on
old narratives that have nothing

to do with the present moment.

So it's

Rupert Isaacson: a big Mel.

Okay.

So, so, so you talk about the body
informing the brain, which, you know,

let's, we could, we could talk, you
know, gut, heart, brain and so on.

There is this thing called the
vagus nerve, the wandering nerve.

it's the largest nerve in our body.

Okay.

Can you explain to us what
the function of this nerve is?

And then from that, I'm gonna
ask you why the word poly?

Do we have more than one vagal
nerve or is it that we have

multiple effects from this nerve?

Or is it Yes, somewhat.

Both.

Okay.

So what is the vagal
nerve and what does it

Rebecca Bailey: do?

Okay, so if you're a cardiologist
listening to me, you're gonna be rolling

your eyes and saying, lady, come on.

I'm not having you do
heart surgery with me.

So I want you to understand that one
of the, the areas about the vagal

nerve visit, it is very multifaceted.

It has really important roles in our body.

I am not a neurosurgeon, so I'm gonna
come at it from my simplistic psychologist

perspective for me, the vagal pathways.

And yes, there are two vagal nerves,
which for dyslexic, this drives me crazy.

Why not call it two nerves?

But there's one on the
left and one on the right.

Okay?

That intervene, go through
all major organs in our many

major organs through our body.

Also go up into the rated nerves in the
face, meaning up above those eyes, those

nerves right there, I, you can't see it
because you're listening, but around the

eyes, and above on the forehead, and then
also they innervate into that inner ear.

For me, the most important role
of the vagal nerves is assessing

what gorgeous calls neuroception.

Am I safe?

Am I not safe?

Now what that, that that means is
in response to a sense of safety or

survival, you're gonna have different
aspects of the body that respond.

So for example, in very, very, very
old, old evolutionary days, the only

way we could respond to threat, not we,
but our great, our, you know, reptile

ancestors, was to shut down and, save
our resources as much as possible.

Breathe really slow, feign
death, whatever that was.

Same possible.

Basically.

Yes.

And hope that the predator would
go away or whatever that was.

So that was the only, only
survival stance that we had.

Then through evolution, the
sympathetic pathways developed.

Fight or flight, get out of there, right.

Move, move, whatever that is.

And then from there, the ventral
vagal pathways and the ventral

vagal pathways are the pathways.

It's much more complicated than
what I say, so please, I know that.

But the ventral vagal pathways are
what allows us to socially connect.

Now, to be in a regulated stage,
regulated state, to be able to sit, have

this conversation, to be able to hug
each other, mobilize without fear, we

have to have ventral vagal oversight.

So that's something by the word

Rupert Isaacson: oversight,

Rebecca Bailey: what does that mean?

Pathway needs to be engaged as well.

Okay.

So that's one of the
mis misunderstandings.

I do believe it's pretty black
and white, although, you know,

next week I could be wrong, but I,
this is how I operationalize this.

So I look at it when that horse, you're
going along and the horse sees a rock and

stop, you know, startles and if you are
in the position to calm yourself down,

be with the horse, then the horse kind of
engages and gets signs of safety from you.

And then you go forward or the horse
tells you it's safe and you go forward.

I have a horse that's terrified of turkeys
and I cannot ride her on a, a trip.

Yeah.

Cause if a Turkey goes by, she
rears up and pause and I jump off

and it's just, you know, and I,
some rearing horses I can take.

She, she just scares the crap outta me.

But one of my friends who's 20 years
younger, she goes out bareback with

me and a Turkey goes and up goes freia
and up goes hope and they trot off.

You know what I mean?

So that's a really good exempt
like example of the dance

between two nervous systems.

Rupert Isaacson: what is what
you're saying then that, that

it's, it's individualized.

So, it's so individualized how you respond
to that apparent threat and that horse

response to that apparent threat Yep.

Creates one equation.

Yep.

And then with your friend, hope
that creates another equation

because of differences in.

Her vagal expression,

Rebecca Bailey: her v well, her ability
to, maybe you could say her ability to

access a, a, a dorsal state of calm for a
minute to go to immobility without fear.

So that's that thing that I'm
beginning to understand even more.

And, and one of the, the things
today, there was something written,

I don't wanna say where, but it
was by the pros on neuroception

calling it faulty versus Not faulty.

And I was like, I don't believe
it's faulty versus not faulty.

I don't think hopes is better than mine.

I just think it's different
in combination to that horse.

And so I think our neuroception
should be embraced.

And I think that's where the Neurodiverse
community has rightfully had some

criticism to polyvagal theory, because
it's saying like, the way it's been

perceived, at least from some of the
parents I work with of Neurodiverse kids,

is like, you're like saying everybody's
ventral vagal, but that's not comfortable.

You know, for me, my home
state is sympathetic, period.

Surprise, surprise.

I'm, I'm a really big social engager.

I'm really big on ventral activity,
but I personally am the happiest when

I've got a little juice, you know?

but in concert with somebody that I
can overwhelm, I have to be careful.

Rupert Isaacson: There's a couple
things I want to, to, to return to.

and you, you've, okay, so just
for clarity's sake, there are two.

Vagal nerves or There are two
main branches of the same nerve,

Rebecca Bailey: two vagal nerves.

There is a left and right vagal nerve.

Do not ask me why they only
call it one, but there is.

Okay.

And it comes, starts at the
bottom of the brainstem.

Rupert Isaacson: So it goes from
your upstairs to your downstairs and

your downstairs to your upstairs.

Rebecca Bailey: Yeah.

The back, the back of the
neck, bottom of the brainstem.

But it innervates these important
facial nerves and the inner ear.

That's my next

Rupert Isaacson: question.

What does enervate

Rebecca Bailey: mean?

Means it connects in with, connects
in with the, the heart connects in,

actually, interestingly enough, it
connects it to the nerves that turn your

shoulder too, which is, you know, when
you're feeling a whole lot of stress.

Mm-hmm.

And you're like, what is that?

Well, that's also the vagal pathways.

Are you

Rupert Isaacson: saying that
innovation means that the, that

nerve, the vagal nerve or both the
vagal nerves are, receive, innovate

means it receives information

Rebecca Bailey: from other, or it it
connects into and remember to just

that neurons and neurotransmitter,
all this stuff is at play too.

It's not just this, you know, not
just the nerve itself, it's the

neurotransmitters and the vagal.

The ventral vagal are myelinated.

And what we know about myelination,
and please, I'll stumble over my words.

We know that the messages in
myelin and the myelin pathways

are quicker, are received quicker
than in other parts of the body.

Is

Rupert Isaacson: myelin actually
the sheaths of the nerves?

Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Okay.

So, so the plexi covering over the wires,
how good that is, or how not good that is,

Rebecca Bailey: and how quickly it moves.

But in the dorsal area,
it's not myelinated.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So you are saying that the ven ventral,
vagal nerve is myelinated, meaning

it has, it has some insulation.

Rebecca Bailey: Call it the ventral
vagal pathways instead of nerve.

Just remember it's one, because
the wander, as you said, it's the

longest of the cranial nerves.

It wanders through all.

So I call it pathways that may not be
right, but it helps my little brain.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Just, just, but I'm,
I'm helping my little brain here to, ok.

Ok.

We, we've got one, the ventral
one, i e, the, the, the safe

place one that's myelinated,
meaning it's got a sheet on it.

It's got, it's, it's got some insulation.

Yes.

But the dorsal one, which is connected
to our collapsed state, play possum

state are, let's just, appease
or go with whatever we need to go

through to get out of the situation.

If we can't fight or flee
is raw, it doesn't have an

insulation thing around it.

Would that be correct?

Rebecca Bailey: At least
that's my understanding.

Yes.

And that's that rest and digest.

And then the sympathetic doesn't either.

At least that is my understanding
at this point in time.

Now, what's fascinating is a conversation
I had with Porges couple weeks ago

on one of our barn chats through
p v I, we talked to him about how.

Some early research shows, and I
don't, I, I gotta clarify this for

you, that predators have less ventral
pathways than prey, I believe.

And now don't quote me yet, cause I
gotta get that clear and I'll send you

the answer, but it's just interesting.

There is a difference between the
ventral pathways between predator

and prey, which makes sense, right?

Because herds have to connect
together for safety, which would

make sense that they would need
a little bit more of the ventral.

But I'm gonna please, I don't, I

Rupert Isaacson: always do.

Well, this, this raises interesting
questions because for example, humans,

we know we're not apex predators.

We're somewhere in the middle.

We're, we're, we're not armored.

We don't have big teeth.

We're not strong like the chimpanzees.

We don't have, some of us have a
lot of hair, but yeah, mostly not.

and we're slow, we're bipedal.

So, but we have this big brain, so we get
our thing through strategy, which might

make us like half what a herd would need
of herb of was, and half what an apex

predator, like a lion or a, or, or, or
a tiger, which are, but, but then you

also get these predators that are super
social, like wolves, lions versus tigers.

So presumably there must be some
sort of a spectrum or continuum.

and I, I presume in evolution, maybe
you can, I, I, I, for example, I've

read that humans, this is a really
interesting, theory that humans when

they came down from the trees, emulated
other midlevel predators that were just

a little bit above them, which is hyenas.

Mm-hmm.

And we began to behave
a little bit like them.

And we found that that actually
served us quite well because we

couldn't really behave like lions.

We couldn't really behave like
tigers cause we didn't have that

kind maximum superpower thing.

I dunno if that's true or not, but what
I do know is that wolfs hyenas, and to

some degree lions have a very, have a
mammalian caregiving system that's based

an awful lot on affection and interaction.

And that evolves into strategies
when they hunt a bit like us.

Yep.

But things like tigers, for example,
don't seem to, or polar bears or,

you know, things that are more sort
of, so I guess the question then is

if you're dealing to prey, us to a
horse, we're the predator of the horse.

The horse is always a little bit
skeptical of us, quite rightly.

or if you are a therapist to, or,
or person dealing with someone

who's gone through an awful lot of
trauma, they have, you know, quite

rightfully a little bit skeptical.

Are we then this is a
question, are we then.

Caught in a interesting movable
equation constantly between

this dorsal, vagal effect, this
parasympathetic nervous system.

Am I safe?

I I not say this, ventral, d vagal thing,
saying, if I am safe, can I strategize

with you and make a plan with you and
team up with you and align with you?

Or do I need to protect myself and
this is an ever-changing landscape?

Is that sort of what we're dealing with?

Really

Rebecca Bailey: cool.

I love the way you are articulated.

I've actually get almost goosebumps
cuz I've never really, that's why

the combustion, I've never really
heard anyone kind of articulated in

the way that when I stand back, I
look at the world and maybe it's that

shamo stuff we did, but Absolutely.

So you're talking about the
animals that you're talking, the

mammals that you're talking about
that have this social connection.

you're talking about the ability
to co-regulate, the ability to

be co-regulate by another, and
we get it all screwed up in this.

I think often where we think regulation
comes before co-regulation, uhuh

co-regulation comes first, the
ability to be soothed by another.

And we absolutely have this bizarre
dance with, humans and horses, which is

one of the things with polyvagal equine.

Not to toot our own horn, but really
to pay attention to the choice of

the horse within the equation and
the protection of the horse as well.

The safety of the horse, the safety of
the human and paying attention to this

no matter what we think and how much
we think we understand everything that

they're thinking and blah blah blah and
all these new theories of what's going on.

The real thing we can do is get in touch
with our own nurse Neuroception of am I

being co-regulate and am I co-regulate?

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: i's need to ask
you, let's define these terms.

Cuz again, for a lot of people who
are listening, they won't know this.

What is co-regulation?

Just what's the black and white?

So the

Rebecca Bailey: best thing I can say
with co-regulation is you think about

the baby that's crying that comes
into the world, whether what other

type of animal mammal it is and they
need something to take care of them.

They cannot possibly survive
in this earth without it.

I always use this story and I
hope my son never hears it, but

my son was incredibly colicky and
I could not co-regulate that guy.

Like there was no ability to co-regulate.

Rupert Isaacson: The only
thing couldn't see him.

Is that what you mean?

You couldn't make him feel better?

Rebecca Bailey: Basically.

I couldn't make him feel better.

Okay.

And the only thing to make him feel
better was passing out of of tire because

he had a real serious stomach problem.

And so he didn't necessarily
perceive me as this, this.

This, you know, thing to make him feel
better where my daughter instantly,

which made me feel like a better parent.

But so what I'm trying to say is that
co co-regulation is this ability to

kind of help someone feel better.

And then there's the other side or
connect with somebody else where

regulation is, this is insulated piece

Rupert Isaacson: regulations
when you're doing it for

Rebecca Bailey: yourself.

Yes, yes.

And that's important and that's
what's important about some of

the yoga and all of these things.

But unless we learn to co-regulate,
we're not doing what you and I were doing

earlier, which is understanding the social
consciousness of, of being aware of each

other's nervous system in the world.

And once you start using that
languaging and acting that way in your

life, there's this huge ability to
access compassion and curiosity for

other people, including the horses.

Whenever we lose that capacity and
curiosity for other people and the

horses, we lose our ability to have them
find their own ability to co-regulate.

Right.

And to me it's at the core of therapy
for severely traumatized people

is being curious and authentic.

So

Rupert Isaacson: if we have a,
an ability to co-regulate Yes.

And we develop.

Is it like a muscle?

We can exercise, can we, can we develop
that to a point where our capacity for

empathy, let's say, to put ourselves in
the shoes of, without assuming we're in

the shoes of, but at least to try to meet
that person or that animal halfway, can

get more and more developed because we're
putting more and more attention there.

Would you say that

Rebecca Bailey: that's
Well, I, I believe so.

I mean, to me that's
what horses taught me.

And, and I think that, as long as we
don't automatically assume or leave

them with the responsibility of having
to take care of dysregulated people,

I think sometimes that's the thing.

Some of the equine orientations drive me
a little bit crazy cuz it's like the poor

horses, like, what am I supposed to do?

Not the, you know, that's amortizing
or however you pronounce that word.

But, but I think I, I do believe
that you can learn to be co-regulate

and co-regulate and regulate.

And some of us maybe had to take different
journeys than other people to get there.

But all of our co-regulation and
all of our reg, I I, it's different.

It's individualized.

That's the thing that's so important.

So, You know, in, in the US there's
so much on evidence-based protocols,

which is really important, but the
fact is it thwarts authenticity.

And so yes, the, it's really important
that everybody isn't running around saying

it is because I say, so, it's important
that we have some data and understand

it, but at the same time, we gotta
understand that our horses, and many of

the people at least that I work with,
smell inauthenticity and run to the hills

if they, because it's dangerous to them.

It's not safe.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you define
what you would say is authenticity?

Rebecca Bailey: I think authenticity
is being really true to who you are.

For example, I'm a big playful
person and I use a sense of humor

and it's very natural to me.

And if I had to sit here like
this and say, well, Rupert, let's

talk about, you'd be like, what?

Like you might think you, you,
part of your cerebral mind might

think, wow, she sounds smart.

Probably not you, but, but
it wouldn't be authentic and

Rupert Isaacson: wouldn't
you don't mean pu joke.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You might be like,
please make me feel safe.

Rebecca Bailey: We wouldn't
be communicating through our

nervous systems together.

So even over Zoom, it
kind of blows my mind.

I get a really sense of who you are, and
hopefully you get a sense of who I am.

Mm-hmm.

And so if you come into my office or
my arena or whatever, and I'm trying

to act according to the protocol
for blah, blah, blah, unless it's

really, really authentic to me.

It's not, it's, it's gonna fall.

That's like horseback riding.

Unless you authentically are riding
with your feel and body, you're

always gonna look like you're,
you're, you know, I don't know

what a plastic person on a horse,

Rupert Isaacson: this, this, this,
this raises a question for me.

Do brains and bo brain and body mapping?

There's so, and again, for, for, for,
listeners that might not know what

that means, let's say for example,
I'm holding a pen right now because

I'm writing down some questions.

My brain makes this, pen part of my
body so that when I put the, tip of

the ballpoint on the, on the paper, I
feel it as if it was part of my body.

So therefore I can do it, in,
in, in a way that's effective.

Do you feel that authenticity is a
sort of way of the brain body mapping

emotion so that the way in which
one communicates with another being

could be animal, could be human?

You obviously where animals
be, you know what I mean?

Is therefore at its most strategically
effective, so would still come

back to survival, but thriving
rather than surviving maybe.

Is it something along those lines?

In a way,

Rebecca Bailey: but I, I, I
think that your body, your, your

neuroception in your body has, oh,

Rupert Isaacson: what's neuroception?

That's what I meant to ask.

Rebecca Bailey: So neuroception is
porges word for, the detection of safety.

He calls it like the TSA agent,
are you safe or you not safe?

Rupert Isaacson: Um, so, so not
just what are my nerves telling me?

It's specifically, am I safe?

Am I not?

Rebecca Bailey: Am I safe?

Am I not safe?

And to me that I do feel like
horses embody that piece,

and present us that a lot.

Like, you know, people talk sometimes.

I've had people send me stuff
about the horse's cerebral cortex

being blah, blah, blah size, and
therefore they're not as smart.

And I'm like, you're not
defining intelligence in

the way you're defining it.

Yeah, I that one crap.

But, so the neuroception, I think the
thing is when we're able to match our

neuroception, our internal body response
in a way with present moment narratives

in our brain, we're congruent, right?

But so many people are not congruent.

So many people have

Rupert Isaacson: response.

Explain to me what you mean by

Rebecca Bailey: congruent.

And I may be using it wrong for
the, the, the, you know, whatever.

I may be using it wrong.

But from my perception,
it means they match.

They're together, they meet
together so that, you know, I

have, you know, my little chocolate
Labrador dog is laying over here.

And let's say someone walked
in the room who was, I don't

know, it's a terrible example.

I don't know this thing, but they come in
and they see a dog and they're like, dog.

And it's like, okay, there's an
incongruence because the dog is

sleeping over here and it's very quiet.

So you're basing on an old narrative
that's making you respond in a way

that's based on a past experience,

Rupert Isaacson: not appropriate
to the current situation.

Rebecca Bailey: Yes.

Now that's where this whole thing
that's tweaking my brain, where

I've started really teaching that
neuroception is neither good nor bad.

And now there's this new hearing that I'm
hearing, well, it's faulty versus not.

I actually think that's problematic
because I think that the thing that

I've found in a lot of the trauma work
that I've done with people to let them

know that their body was just right.

They're here in my office or in my
arena with the horses and they survived.

Let's celebrate that instead of looking
at the faulty verses, not faulty.

And that's at the basis of the
article that I wrote with Steven

Porges and JC Dugard and Dr.

Smith on appeasement.

This thing that when you're in a
relationship, With an aggressor.

We were trying to get rid
of the word Stockholm.

Stockholm syndrome was the word that
the media put forth as to how people

fall in love with the perpetrator.

It actually had seven variables,
but the one that most people object

to in my mind, that have been
in this situation is the love.

It's not love, it's survival.

For most of these people, every once
in a while somebody will say, no,

no, no, I actually did, but whatever.

So, so we're not gonna dismiss it.

There's no absolutes.

But, understanding that the
appeasement, which is this ability

to be in dorsal absolute fear and
then activate the ventral vagal to

stay alive, is really a superpower.

So, for example, Elizabeth Smart, who's
another young woman, I didn't work with

her, but she's a good friend who was held
captive for 18 months by a crazy person

up in the hills and raped repeatedly.

She said, in talking about this, about
this subject that she understood, what

she did was she thought, if I'm super
kind, this person might be kind to me.

This person and his sick
wife might be kind to me.

And she said it was unconscious.

But now when I look back at it, I
realize that I was from deep terror

into this place of I'm gonna be kind.

In the hopes you're kind too.

Did it change the course of her life?

No.

No.

Did they stop raping her?

No.

But she was able to survive and,
and actually now is thriving

a beautiful life years later.

Rupert Isaacson: Did it help her
to strategize her way out of that

situation in some way or other?

No,

Rebecca Bailey: because for many of the
people that I know who've been in those

extreme, there is seriously no way out.

Okay.

There's no way out.

You ha you, you know, you're
living so much in the home and

people talk a lot about hope.

That's a whole nother podcast.

But, but, it is more like surviving
in the second in, in the moment.

In the minute.

And so that appeasement word I just
love because it is this capacity to have

terrible fear in your body and then go
up into an engagement and then not get

your, not be wrong about it in treatment.

Not 10 years later be sitting in
an office saying, oh my God, I

disassociated and why didn't I fight back?

Right.

That's not the point.

Right.

So I mean, maybe for some
people it is, it could be,

Rupert Isaacson: well there's only any
point fighting back if there's a chance

that that's going to be successful.

Right?

I mean, anyone I think who's
ever been in a, in a situation

where their life is in danger.

I think this happens in
all sorts of situations.

And, for example, in the world of young
men, growing up in the type of school

that I grew up with in, in England, it,
it was violent and it was constantly,

constantly, constantly violent.

It wasn't just violent a little bit.

It was you, you were beaten
by your teachers, you were

beaten by the older boys.

You were, everything
was endorsed that way.

And it was a military
school and dah, dah, dah da.

And that was not just my experience, that
was the experience of many generations.

So this appeasement thing was something
that, one, I think you, you touched

on, one really learned to use,
which was that you knew what your

chances were if you could fight back.

Well, sure.

But that, and so sometimes
you did, but you were made to

feel shame when you didn't.

However, there was a wiser part of you
that knew that sometimes you had to

appease cuz this bloke was just 28 times
bigger than you and there was no way up.

And then you were either gonna go
to hospital and they did, or you

were going to appease in some way.

And then you might then
be shamed for that later.

However you survived, went
on and could strategize.

And what I'm wondering with that,
with, with appeasement and therefore

that this is really interesting
that you talk about dorsal i e.

Effectively a bit of a,
almost what a collapsed state.

But then that somehow being able to
be parlayed into a ventricle state

almost like you can correct me.

So I'm asking this, I'm not stating this.

Would it be a really interesting, clever
way of biology to say, okay, we've evolved

from simply reptilian brain amygdala.

Fight, flight, freeze tells the
body to create cortisol act.

Don't think, okay, fine.

If, if, if, if the elephant's
exploding out of the bush, that's good.

But if you now see that this is something
that's gonna go on for a while and,

and, and this is going to be your life
for a bit, this is your situation that

you can maybe bypass that amygdala in
that cortisol, which is gonna stop you

from thinking that's its job and somehow
get back to your prefrontal cortex

where you can now begin to strategize
without the benefit of oxytocin.

So, you know, oxy, with, with Horse
boy method, for example, we, we rely

on oxytocin, rhythmic rocking motion of
the hips to sort of bypass the amygdala.

But what's inter intriguing to me with
what you are saying there, is that

maybe there's a way, is it true that one
could find a way to bypass the amygdala

that's not dependent on oxytocin?

Because ob obviously, if
you're in under extreme threat,

what oxytocin can you find?

There's gonna be no feel good
hormone available to you.

Yet somehow your nervous system can
sort of override that default and give

you access to your prefrontal cortex.

So you can make some plan, some
reason, some logic and, and, and

emotionally regulate, you know,
not overreact, not underreact, feel

your way through the situation.

Is that polyvagal survival sort of
at its most functionally extreme?

Or it's

Rebecca Bailey: another
way to look at it though.

Another way to look at it, and again,
this is the simplistic view, is

that your nervous system takes over
because if the brain really clicked

in, it would go into panic state.

Right.

So you're, you're, I mean this is,
again, is this, I mean, Sue Carter, Dr.

Porter's wife is the one that,
isolated oxytocin and vasopressin

and she'd be really interesting
to talk to cuz she could, she'll

take us into the real biology.

But from my perspective, when, and I
know this is part of polyvagal theory,

is that when you're in a sort of
dorsal activated state, dysregulated

with dorsal or sympathetic, you
cannot access the cerebral cortex.

Right.

You can't think of it.

Yeah.

At all.

So I would contend that, and I
say this to some of my clients,

that your body and brain.

You know, you're, you're, it is time to
tell your brain, I got this in my body.

Or tell your body I got this
when the brain's hijacking.

Cuz I don't think the cerebral
cortex comes into play.

I think that the horror of the
situation where there no is no

escape is obvious and, and your
body kind of has to handle it.

I don't know if that
makes sense, but is it

Rupert Isaacson: something like, on the
most extreme level, let's say people

have watched wildlife documentaries or
you might have, you know, been on safari

or you might have seen wolves pulling
down a, a deer or something like that.

Yep.

and but the, the obvious one would
be like lions pulling down a wallaby

store while dog pulling down a wallaby.

And I've certainly seen that.

And one of the things that one sees
is when the animal goes, okay, shit,

actually it's, I'm just fucked now.

Yep.

It's like they enter Ohio State
and they go, alright fine.

Fair enough.

And it's almost, and it seems that their,
their pain and their panic and all of

that is overridden and they're in complete
detachment and they're sort of looking

at what's going on, going, alright.

Right.

Well I guess that's my
body, but do what you want.

I'm on my way out.

It's vaguely sort of, and, and you,
you, you can see this happening

and certainly people report this.

Is that what's going on in the.

Rebecca Bailey: It is.

And what we talk about is, and
this is the vagal break going on,

your heart rate gets really slow.

But what you also does, the vagal
break, sorry, the vagal, I hate always

explaining that one because I'm so,
like, I'm so, I have a hard time

explaining it with the exception of
it's like going down a hill and you

put on the brake to slow your heart
rate, slow down or slow the bike down.

That's what, that's what
happens in your body.

You can slow it down.

And we talk about a thing called
voodoo death where people can

get so scared they can die.

And there's been research, we know
now that when cats, one of the reasons

people get so concerned about bringing
cats into the veterinarians is some

of them can actually die of fear.

And so now, at least in the
US, they give gabapentin.

So your body can react very, very
dramatically, into this shutdown stage.

And there's all sorts of other things
going on, but that's the right, but,

but what I was gonna say is that years
ago, about five years ago, I went and I

saw this guy who'd been held captive by
Somalian Pirates and for like many years,

and I wish I had his name or 985 days.

And it was so cool because at the time
everybody was talking about hope, hope,

hope and how hope saves you and all this.

And he said, every morning I woke up.

If I started thinking about
hope, I got so depressed.

By my circumstance that I would shut down.

So I began to wake up every
single morning and just try to

stay focused in that moment.

And I really like, that's, see, that's
what I heard from these other people.

See, I think there's a huge difference
between being held captive, being

restricted, your body restricted.

I think there's a difference
in the trauma, the way your

body interprets trauma.

And I think it's also
different with horses.

The horses that are, are, are
broke through the old styles.

They're, I mean, my horses,
we have a heard of like 14.

They're not all mine, but they're
a little feisty, little boogers.

You know, they got their own
personalities and you can see it.

Even people that don't know
horses can see it with them.

And they have been from very early
on, been gentle in the, you know,

it's been, and you know, I, they've
just, it's, they're different

and you see them differently.

And I do think there's this huge
difference between being like you in

that boarding school, if you had sat
there and if your brain had been allowed

to say, Rupert, this is messed up.

You could get killed at any point.

You know, you could go in that
hospital if you'd really embrace that.

You could have been really scared and gone
into a clo close disassociative shutdown.

But instead, your body
said, I got you, dude.

We got this.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: There was a point where
I went into a shutdown and I couldn't

get outta bed for about six months.

And Yeah.

But what I think happened with that
was that that was my body saying

this is a way to opt out if I, yeah.

I I think it knew that, and so it opted
me out for a bit where I could gain

some resilience and then come back.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

And to other people who, who sort
of went through that, we, we were a

bit confused at the time of why we
all had this experience, but, yeah.

And

Rebecca Bailey: you know, it's funny,
when I work with, and I've kind of

over the years worked with, we've all
in the field, we all work with very

challenging situations, but I have
worked with a bunch of unfortunate

situations where children have been
tied to beds and things like that.

And maybe it's the people that come to
me, but when I begin to work with them

here, what I see is the celebration of who
they are and how they got through that.

Hmm.

And I do believe, not that I am
this incredible therapist, I think

what I do right with them is I help
them celebrate the resiliency rather

than focus on what wasn't there.

And the horses do that.

The horses are like, Hey, you know, let
me, let me nibble at your hair right now.

I don't care what
happened to you last week.

Rupert Isaacson: Do, do, do you
feel, do you feel that horses

that were broke in the old style
are effectively held captive?

It's sort of like they're psychically held
captive, and is that where the in the eye.

Rebecca Bailey: Yeah, I do.

And, and I was, you know, I even when I
first started writing on this subject,

I had some people from the marine world
write to me about whales and all this

stuff, and you know how they're being.

And really it starts
messing with your brain.

I mean, it's really hard.

It is really hard.

And yes, I do believe that the
horses whose quote unquote will

has been broken, that they go
into sort of this dorsal shutdown.

Now, what's interesting, I'm also working
with a friend of mine from, Australia.

We're looking at a sound protocol
for horses to see if we can help.

That is Porges SSP protocol to see
if we can help maybe the horses

shift out of that total shutdown.

But I, I believe the best healing in
the entire world is heart to heart.

I really do.

Or maybe it's vagal to vagal, but, you
know, I really, really believe that.

And I believe, I have a horse here whose
head was tied to her leg and she was

actually one of the horses that came from
one of the guys in the Grateful Dead.

And it was, did not happen with them.

It happened before they got her.

And she is the most reactive.

Like you come near her ears
go back, and she snaps.

You have to wait and
approach her in her space.

And then she's like, She'll do
anything for you, but she will

always, she's 36 and looks dynamite.

And her thing is like, do you
respect me as you come near me?

That's all she asks.

It's really wild.

And she's taught so many
people about boundaries.

I want

Rupert Isaacson: to ask you, I want to
go to boundaries actually in a minute.

I want to return to the
idea of sympathetic and

parasympathetic nervous system.

there's a lot of confusion here.

I was very confused for quite a long
time, like, why would they call it

sympathetic when it doesn't seem
very sympathetic and parasympathetic?

Why?

Okay.

Are those two things, let's
say sympathetic fear response,

parasympathetic, happy going about
my business, serotonin, e oxytocin,

e functional, are they part of the
vagus nerve or are they something

separate that interacts with the vagus?

Rebecca Bailey: So to make you feel
better when anyone asks these questions,

I go to horror in my, in my system.

I'm like, oh my God, I
can't get this right.

I get confused cuz the
two words drive me crazy.

What I do know about the parasympathetic,
yes, they are part and parasympathetic

is the, rest digest, the shutdown piece.

Sympathetic.

I look at more of the fight flight, the
sort of conscious pieces that we have.

But yes, they are part of the vagal.

the vagal pathways are part of that.

I actually prefer to talk about
the autonomic nervous system as

a whole because then I don't get
stuck in the parasympathetic.

But honestly, when anybody in the
audience or something says, Dr.

Bi, could you please
explain parasympathetic?

I go, oh my God, I'm back
in my boarding school.

Right know, and I'm gonna get yelled
at and have to write parasympathetic 15

times on the chalkboard, you know, until

Rupert Isaacson: I get the sensory
issue of the chalkboard as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Bailey: Totally.

The cur and the cursive.

And I can't do cursive cause I'm dyslexic.

So the os go on and on and on,
and then they slap your little

hands and like, forget it.

But yes, so it's, it's
all part of the autonomic.

Am I giving you a flashback, Rupert?

Are

Rupert Isaacson: you, did
you see me holding my head?

Yeah.

Yeah.

the, the, the question though really
for me is, It seems that okay.

Yes.

What I'm liking about what you
say is that it's not simplistic.

and it's nuanced because we
know that that's human life.

So say for example, I've got
a thing which I like to do.

I really like to cross country ride.

I always have, and I like to, I grew
up fox hunting and it's always been my

greatest love and I've smashed myself up
a few times, so I know what can happen.

And when I'm going in at a
fence, I'm definitely in fear.

However, overriding that fear
is an excitement and a pleasure.

So I'm getting sort of a dopamine with
cortisol, with a little bit of oxytocin if

the rhythm is nice of the horse coming in.

And then, oh my God, thank God I survived.

You know, as I hit a, why am
I even doing this to myself?

And then I look up a shit and
there's the next one coming.

And then of course, at the end
of the day, I'm like, I don't

really want to do that again.

Are

Rebecca Bailey: you drag
hunting or live hunting

Rupert Isaacson: these days?

I'm drag hunting.

And, and that happened because, oh gosh.

back in 2005 or six, I was bringing a
group of Kalahari, Bushman Coan to the

United Nations and the US State Department
as part of the work we were doing to help

them gain legal access to their, legal
title, to their ancestral land, which

they've been illegally evicted from.

And I.

Had a whole background with this
and we found ourselves going,

coast to coast, in America.

we started in Hollywood
with artists for amnesty.

Basically just trying to make
as much noise as we could.

And then I wanted to stop in the Navajo
reservation, the Hopi reservation,

because I wanted them to meet indigenous
people who had gotten their land

back and basically could talk about,
okay, well here are the problems

that come when you're successful.

And we were camped in Canyon DeChea.

I, you know, dunno if you know
where that is, but it's the second

largest natural canyon in, in the
US after obviously the Grand Canyon.

But it's, it's, it's in a similar area.

It's on the Navajo reservation in
Arizona and it's really, really deep.

And if you go down there, you can
only access it in most of the, of

the canyon by foot or horseback.

there's a little bit you can access at
the end on by vehicle, but you can't

really get in and there's a very, very
traditional life on that valley floor.

and we were down there camping and a
and a and a medicine man showed up and

said, oh, I've heard that you guys are
here, to help sort of get the land back.

Would you guys like to do a sweat lodge?

And we went, yeah, absolutely.

And we did the sweat lodge praying
for the return of the land.

And at the end of that,
it's actually 2004.

That's right.

the, the med, Samantha, does anyone else
have anything that they want to pray for?

And I said, yes, my son just
got diagnosed with autism.

So we did a round of prayers for that.

When we came outta the sweat
lodge, he said to me, do you hunt?

And I said, I do, but maybe not
in a way that you understand.

He said, that's not important.

He said, I'm just getting it loud
and clear from the spirit world that

you have to stop and it's somehow
tied up with your son's autism.

And that's all I can tell you.

And I went, oh shit.

Of course, of course.

The thing that I love the most is
the thing that I have to give up.

Of course, of course.

That makes perfect sense.

Okay, fuck it.

Right.

Okay, I'll do it.

and at the time I was actually,
it was part of my job.

I was, I was paid, it's a
great gig to go round for the

equestrian magazines and hunt with
different hunts and write them up.

I loved it.

And I used to work with
the American Masters of Fox

House Association to do this.

And my great friend Dennis Foi might
be listening to this, Hey Dennis.

he was always suspicious of
me cause I'm such a hippie.

you know, said, I called him and
I told him what had happened.

He said, I always knew you would
always become an anti ruper.

I knew you were deep down, you
know, just an anti, you'd just

turn on us and you'd betray us.

I'm like, Dennis, it's not that, you know,
it's, it's, it's a completely personal

decision, but I can't argue with this.

My gut tells me it's absolutely true.

As I was having this conversation with
him, this is in Texas where I used to

live, and it, it's not like England
where there's a lot of foxes around.

there's a lot of coyotes.

And coyotes don't tolerate foxes much.

So when you see foxes in Texas,
you actually notice, you see

maybe like one a year, two a year.

I'm sitting on my front porch at night
and the light is off the front and

this fox just comes walking straight
out of the dark, stands in the

porch, flight, looks at me and goes,
and I just hold the phone forward.

I said, Dennis, this is what's going
on right now while we're having this

conversation, so if you think that this
is some kind of hippie bullshit, and he

goes, well, right Ruth, maybe you know.

And anyway, so I love that, that
all I do these days is drag hunt.

Yes.

Which is, I I do the simulated
type of fox hunt where Yeah.

Yeah.

We're hunting a few.

We don't hunt a live animal anymore.

No.

Rebecca Bailey: Yeah.

We used to, there was a big thing where
I grew up in Lincoln, Massachusetts

and the only, I, I went on a few, and
the last one I did, this is awful.

And all your listeners are probably like,
get half of them have hung up or whatever.

they, it got a farmer's cat.

Ooh, dogs not good.

And that was really, that
was sort of like tough.

But I had a mayor, my mayor Locke,
who used to the hunt master Quincy

Adams, old, old Boston guy, would
actually borrow cuz she loved to

go out so much in the front, man.

She was like, she was so that
horse was a wonder horse.

But that is an amazing story.

And we, you and I should swap some
stories cuz I got a couple that I'm

not gonna go into now that are like,
like where does that come from?

You know, that whole
thing of whatever it is.

I pretend that I'm not woowoo all the
time and I like, but there's a part

of me that's like, please the fox came

Rupert Isaacson: out and barked.

Yeah, no.

As, as my friend, you know,
Warwick Shilla, Warwick.

And for those who listeners who, dunno,
Warwick Shilla, go now to Warwick.

Switch off my silly old pocket.

No, don't switch off Rebecca.

But afterwards go to, the Journey on
podcast and listen to Warwick Sheller.

Yet he has a, a really good expression.

He says, you can't fight the woo.

Rebecca Bailey: It's, it's, you know,
it's, it's actually really, I mean, I was

at a Grateful Dead show years ago, and I
was walking down and I grabbed a friend of

mine and I said, watch out was backstage.

I said, oh my gosh, watch out.

It's a turtle.

And she leans down, she goes,
what are you talking about?

It's a piece of, it's a piece of tissue.

Like it was a, a paper towel.

So we walk a few more st steps,
and I'll be damned there, it was a

turtle that people had stepped on
in the, I mean like, like, kinda

like, where did that come from?

So you can't fight the woo, but you
also have to understand that there's

a lot of people I need to ground
myself because if I get too much

in the woo, I go flying off in my
spaceship and nobody would understand

Rupert Isaacson: me.

Right.

But life has a habit of grounding
us in the woo, doesn't it?

Yes.

I mean, it's out of the woo rather,
you know, from the woo to the poo.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

True.

And that actually brings us back to, to,
to what I want was in the middle of asking

you that, this nuanced dance between
these different aspects of the vagal and

sympathetic, the autonomic nervous system,
as you'd say, but with all these different

bits, hence the word poly, seems, you
know, I, I've heard people say, oh, if, if

you're in sympathetic, it's bad if you're
in, you know, parasympathetic, it's good.

And I'm thinking, well, when I'm
going into that fence, I'm, I'm

dancing in between those things.

In a way that allows me to respond
appropriately to the fence.

I have to jump where I'm Yes.

And you do you see, you
see what I'm saying?

It, it seems that it's neither
bad nor good in that moment.

It's bits of both that allow, give
me some tools to get the job done

right in a way that with some vent

Rebecca Bailey: oversight.

And, and it's funny you say, sometimes
what I show when I'm trying to explain

vagal v I'll show a really high level
jumper, go going into a fence on a

horse and you know, they're together.

They're just really together.

They get to the base and they release.

And then there's this beautiful moment,
where they reconnect on the other side.

And that's what I, it is funny you would
say the jump, cuz I always think of

that, of how, at least to me, that really
explains the dance of the nervous system

and the dance of two nervous systems.

How does that rider give
the message to the horse?

It's not about dominance, it's
about I'm up here, I'm with you,

I'm connected, and vice versa.

And, and I think that's the nuance.

Rupert Isaacson: So yeah.

So, so, so we don't have to feel,
we're getting it right or we're

getting it wrong with which bit of
the, of autonomic nervous system

are we in this particular moment.

Rebecca Bailey: I, I don't think so.

I think what it is, is it's what
it means to you in your body.

Like what you said, Rupert, you know,
you go off to the hunt and you're scared,

but you're excited, but you're not.

So when I used to do horse shows, if I
showed up and I was scared to death, I

would do terribly If I showed up and I was
excited, I would do really beautifully.

And I, you know, there was like this
disconnect between understanding that

my body was feeling the same thing.

I, I go back, look back at it and I'm
like, oh, that's, you know, the day that I

crashed over all the Oxfords or whatever.

So I think that, , it's what it means
to you and in my dear friend Deb

Dana's words, who is someone that's
written a lot on Steven Porges in a

way that people understand is really,
befriending your nervous system.

Like making friends with your
individual nervous system.

And this good, bad, I mean, yes, it is
a lot to be in a dorsal overload all

the time can lead to immune problems,
sleep problems, digestion problems.

So, you know, we gotta understand that.

But dorsal activity can also
be responsible for, as I said

earlier, a mobility without fear.

To be present without fear, you gotta
have some dorsal rest and digest going on.

So that said, we, we have
a polyvagal, a carousel.

It shows the horses going round and
round and when you're regulated,

they're going around and nobody notices.

When it's dysregulated,
it's all like jumpy.

I always say at this in my old age,
I would like to be in that cart.

That doesn't go up and down,
that just goes smoothly.

But none of us can do that.

That's impossible.

We are all gotta, you know, you gotta have
all these different pieces happening else.

You're not alive.

Rupert Isaacson: And I guess that
also makes sense if you think of

the hunter-gatherer human context.

If you are, if you're walking
in the bush, chances are there's

always something hunting you.

Yeah.

Chances are you are
probably hunting something.

Chances are you are also
looking for wild foods.

Chances are if you make the wrong
decision about those wild foods, you get

the toxic doppelganger and poison your
family and that, so you, you are cons

and there's elephants around and you're
a bit worried about drought, but, oh

look, the Mong Gogo nuts are doing well.

You know, it, it seems that whatever
you're doing in life that, that the

human condition, probably the condition
of being alive, no matter what species

you are, is always seems to be about
this dance, this constant dance between

fear and respite and happiness and.

Moments of terror, and then that feeling
of, oh, I survived it, and that's cool.

And I used my skills and Oh, I wonder
what the next thing is gonna be.

And oh, here's a philosophical question
and one is it's always a flux, right?

Yeah.

Rebecca Bailey: It is always a flux.

And the thing is, I do believe we
have to get way out of our head

way more, because as we know,
there's a, a really international

crisis of loneliness in this world.

People feel lonely and isolated.

We've got our faces in our cell phones.

I happen to like my cell phone,
but I've gotta remind myself to

leave it behind when I go out for
a day sometimes, just because.

But we live in this world where
we're so lonely, so in so many areas

because people have lost this ability
to connect with each other and to

honor each other's nervous system.

So, you know, you're in the store
and the person behind you is being

a complete jerk to the teller or
whatever that is, to the cashier.

And you know, your job is to really
regulate yourself enough that

maybe you might just co-regulate
that guy or girl or woman or they

in front of you, whatever it is.

But, but you also, You have
to remember that that can also

impact you as well, right?

You can walk outta the store and get
in the car and shout at the dog, right?

And then you're like, wait a second.

It wasn't the dog.

I just, this person was
screaming at the teller.

So just understanding the
importance, it's in the body.

See, I think that's the thing.

It's in the body first, and then
the brain fills in the blanks.

That's what I think.

It's like what?

You know, so they talk, you know, Bessel
talks about that trauma lives in the body.

And it took me a really long time I used
to say to all, and I still do say this,

sometimes trauma's not what, it's not
who you are, it's what happened to you.

Okay?

But then actually, Dr.

Porges and Deb had a conversation
one time with me, said, no, no, no.

It lives in your body.

It's living in there.

And I still bel, I understand that
and I believe it and I accept it.

But I do think until we reduce shame
from people and the sense of some sort

of a self responsibility, which is
different than what I just said, but

until we help people move outta shame,
people get stuck in a dorsal place

and they get immersed in their story.

Because shame is what holds us down.

We know that.

We absolutely know that.

And I actually don't think
horses experience shame.

I know my dog sort of does in a funny
way, but I don't think horses do that.

I think they're in the moment so
much that they just go, oh, and,

and they're nervous system is so
flexible they go onto the next piece.

Do you think,

Rupert Isaacson: do you think
that shame is a predator thing?

Rebecca Bailey: You know, it's
interesting, it's so cool in some ways.

Is it, or is it a predator's tool
to, and but how would that happen

in the, in the animal kingdom?

, well I dunno.

Rupert Isaacson: Might it be,
let's say you're a wolf pack.

Yeah.

And one wolf isn't pulling their
weight or something like that.

And we know that a wolf pack can actually
turn on a pack member and annihilate

them in that sort of a, a situation.

Do you think that shame is
a tool that predators you?

And this is just coming to my mind
hearing you say, maybe, maybe some

listeners might want to chime in on this.

There might be some zoologists out there.

Yeah.

Do, do we think Yeah.

Is that where it comes from?

Cause as you said, you only said
the dog and then it, it went.

Oh yeah.

But you're right.

I think I've never, I don't
think horses do feel shame.

I think you're right.

I, I don't think they do.

So why feel shame?

Yeah.

Rebecca Bailey: So if we look from the
herd, and I would love if you get feedback

on this, but if you look at it from a herd
connection, shame is an isolating thing.

You get cast off from the pack,
and as a result, you don't have the

safety that the pack would give you.

They're not gonna survive.

So there may be this, you know, I don't
know that the, that the dog is like,

oh my God, I feel so bad this happened.

The dog's nervous system may be saying,
oh shit, something's about to happen here.

Right.

You know, I, I don't know.

You know, my grandmother grew up in
Hawaii and she used to talk about

the minor birds, how they would be
on opposite branches, and she would

watch them, like one bird would be all
alone, and the other birds would squash

and squawk and squawk, and sometimes
they'd all fly off, and other times

they'd all go and attack this one bird.

Mm-hmm.

And she used to tell me about this thing
that she would watch out of her window.

And I always thought about that,
like, was this bird being shamed?

You know, what was going on?

It's just, I don't know, you're pulling
out all these old, like, thoughts of

mine, Rupert, that I, I have no one
to talk to about half this stuff.

So thank you for giving
me the opportunity.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,
let's explore this line.

So if we, so we are predators,
we can, we can accept that.

Yeah.

If, if we are predators and if we
use shame as a tool to sort of make

people pull together as a team.

If, if that's, if that's possibly its
basic function, yet it can, of course.

Un man, it, it, it can do us in as shame
so that if we are shamed, we can also

be made dysfunctional within the team.

What do we do about shame?

How, how, how do we, how, how do we, how
do we dance out of dysfunction with that?

what are your thoughts?

Rebecca Bailey: Problem is, is it's been
used to, shame has been used to disempower

marginalized populations, right?

And so there's a certain investment
in using shame in certain cultures

and certain, certain, groups.

Absolutely.

But what we can do clinically,
what we can do with the horses is

really try to talk about the innate
brilliance of the nervous system, the

innate, absolute innate brilliance.

And by understanding that, and that's
why I was so concerned about the word

faulty neuroception, because to me,
helping people completely understand that

this is the response in all its glory.

Maybe it could be different in another
context, but in that moment it's

what you, it was the best you got.

And that's okay.

And then how do you maybe
let yourself learn to receive

cues of safety going forward?

But it's so interesting because
shame has been written about forever

going back to psychoanalytic work.

It's, it's so much more toxic
than, than blame, I and guilt.

And I really believe that it is at
the core of many of our mass shooters,

that there's this shame in casting
out of the herd that propels them

to want to act in such a way that
says, don't you ever forget me.

Don't you ever, you know,
don't you forget who I am?

And it's really sad.

I mean, God, that's a whole nother
tangent, but it's just so sad to me.

When you look at, I've had the, occasion
of reading some of the profiles

of mass shooters, and frequently
they're marginalized people that have

been pushed outta their community.

I am not in any way justifying the action,
but is there's this shame piece that

you belong over here and we're here.

And the acting out is
like, don't you forget me.

Don't you not know that I'm here.

Don't you forget that I was here.

Sorry about another tangent there.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

Or, or, yes.

Or, or if you're gonna throw me out
to the greater predators, then I

will become that greater predator.

Yes.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is that, is that, is
that what vengeance is?

Is that what Avengers, that's interesting.

Rebecca Bailey: So this is what you
and I need to get together and write

a book on and talk about is the power
of shame and the predatory practice.

Because if we can attack that darn s
word again, if people can hear about

it and really understand it from a
body-based response, maybe we can get

it out of this cerebral value judgment.

You know it, because it
isn't a moralistic thing.

It's, it's a survival thing to want to
feel connected and it is so powerful.

You never put a horse alone.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: Hopefully,
do it all the time.

But I'm just, I'm just thinking about back
to my time, for example, with the Bushman.

I never heard of anybody being or
encountered this, whether re real, you

know, in real time or hearing about it.

I never heard of anybody
being shamed, ostracized.

I, I, I never, no one to my
knowledge has, was ever cast out.

And if, if these people again feel
collective responsibility and, and,

and if these people are the oldest
people on the planet, therefore the

blueprint for what humans actually
are, That's actually very functional.

That always used to give me a lot of hope.

And I think being, oh, actually
maybe we're actually really

quite good as a species because
these people seem so functional.

yet we know for sure other cultures do.

I wonder if do, do you think
that in the wild context of

humanity, blame might be used?

And I, I'm asking myself this question,
like, let's say, I don't know, you didn't

pull your weight somehow in the thing
and it compromised the other people

and they're a bit mad at and da da da.

You know, because you jeopardize
everybody's safety in that moment.

So you got a chance to kind of then
go to the shaman and you go, okay,

what do I need to do to access my mojo
to, you know, but other cultures for

sure later, cultures, agricultural
cultures, that sort of thing, we

know absolutely have cast people out.

you hear about, you know, the accounts
of the a hundred years war and, you

know, people caught between two armies
trying to get into the city with the

attacking army behind them and the
army behind the war and just being

allowed to let die, you know, in
between and starve to death in between.

And, and what would make
you not open the gates?

What would make you make that decision?

And that seems to be a.

A, perhaps a non-authentic way of being a
human is that the difference between blame

and shame is shame a later construct.

Rebecca Bailey: I think it probably
is a later construct, and probably if

we're really going deep, brought in
through paternalistic governmental,

I, I don't know that any of the
maternalistic, if that's the right word,

societies would use shame like that.

And so it's, for lack of a better
word, it's, it's, it's, I don't know.

It's really interesting.

It's really interesting.

It serves to disempower people, period.

And wherever.

Yeah, go ahead.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: the question
is shame a recent thing.

I mean, in terms of human
history, let's think about it.

Ev, evolution, history rather
than like, history, you

Rebecca Bailey: know, since I
would think so, wouldn't you?

I mean, I would be, it would be so
interesting to, again, if you have any

listener who's like a sociologist that
can say, actually we can see guilt as

being, you know, brought in X, Y, Z.

But I bet, I bet that is a more function.

I bet it's a function.

I don't know.

That's very interesting.

I I still blame it on the men.

Sorry.

Rupert Isaacson: No, I mean, it may well
be because I mean, with, with, with,

agriculture, I mean, agriculture can be.

That's when we see war coming
in and that sort of thing.

it can be maternal, it can be paternal.

We see both, but usually it's
the blokes, usually it's,

Rebecca Bailey: and, and of course
without offending people, and maybe I

do, but I don't mean to that they, you
know, very much Christian values are

embedded in, in, in guilt and shame.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
well, is guilt the same thing?

This is another, is guilt the same

Rebecca Bailey: thing as Sean?

No, I don't think guilt is, see,
in my humble opinion, guilt is

a motivator for some people.

And, and, as long as it doesn't go
into probably the dorsal, if we're

using polyvagal terms, which I love to
use because who knows if this is really

true, but it sounds so smart that maybe,
maybe shame is a dorsal response, a

fear response, a deep fear of being
cast out where guilt has maybe, let's

think, possibly some sympathetic juice
into it that there's something I can do

about this, to, to make it different.

Where shame, I don't think there's the,
the structure, the construct is not, I

can do something to make it different.

It's like I've done something terrible
and there's no rectifying Right.

There's

Rupert Isaacson: no redemption.

Rebecca Bailey: Right, right.

Whereas the, the, the guilt one I do,
I really, I do sometimes have people

come in and say, I feel so guilty.

And it's like, okay, well
you feel really guilty.

what do we do with that now?

Where do you want that to go?

I mean, yeah, it's okay to be feel guilty
that, you know, You yelled at your kid

or your husband, or your wife, or your
spouse or whoever, that's, that's fine.

But what are you gonna do with it?

Can you move it into a ventral, into
a place where there's compassion and

curiosity for yourself and for them?

Or are you gonna let it go down
into an embedded place of, you

know, shame that I am a terrible
person, is ventral forgiveness?

I think so, for sure.

I have found my life to be so much richer
when I look at, see, I look at compassion

and curiosity as, so when I'm dealing with
someone, whether in the horse arena or

wherever, clinically or not, who are so
politically different than I am, initially

my sympathetic gets bubbling and I, you
know, like, and then I just have to really

go to curiosity and I can literally feel
the shift in my body and I can feel the

shift of like, for a second, you know, it
doesn't mean that I walk away saying, oh,

isn't that wonderful I, I'm there, right?

It's just I go to more compassion for
myself, for my response and for them.

And so that sort of goes to forgiveness.

I have a funny relationship
with forgiveness.

I.

I go back, I, I am a
teeter-totter on forgiveness.

Sometimes I, I, I don't choose to be in
sympathetic with forgiveness, and I don't

choose to be in dorsal, but I choose to
be okay that there are some people I just,

you know, I, I don't want to forgive.

And that's a conscious choice.

That's a cerebral choice, right?

Right.

And it's not very choice.

But there's only two or three people
in my life that I'm like that with.

Rupert Isaacson: And I suppose in
one's perfect world, one would,

one would get to that point.

And who knows, maybe one will.

But I think yes, everyone can say that.

may, maybe not today,
but hopefully tomorrow.

Yeah.

I was, this is one of the questions I had
written down here actually, which is how

can we access kindness and compassion?

Well, you know, even when, just let
me just, but even when our sympathetic

nervous system is active, meaning,
righteous anger, let's say you're

having trouble forgiving some somebody
because they actually did do you wrong.

And, so therefore you have every,
every reason, every right to not forgive

them, to be, to be angry with them.

yet one knows deep down that if I
better a grudge, It doesn't do oneself

any good really at the end of the day,
but it can be very, very difficult

to not act upon that, et cetera.

How so?

How do we access kindness and
compassion even when our sympathetic

nervous system is active like that?

What, what, what, what?

when we survive trauma, what, what,
what, what are your thoughts on that?

Rebecca Bailey: So, two pieces.

I think that the, an, the simple
answer is to get back into a regulated

state, and that's where like being with
the horse and grooming the horse or

watching the horses or just being in the
presence of, you know, peaceful horses

and some ways can help you regulate.

But what I was.

Interrupting you about, sort of
dovetails to what you also just said,

which the people, I don't forgive.

I want them to be shamed.

So, you know, miss, miss, Dr.

Lio over here saying that, you know,
when I, when I look at the people in my

life that, and there's two that I really
believe, I don't wanna ever forgive.

I, I don't walk around with a lot of
hatred for them, but they have never

showed any shame for their action.

And it pisses me off.

So I think the one way that we get at,
into compassion is to stay curious and

to say regulated and get outta judgment.

Because when we judge, we
cannot be compassionate.

We just can't be.

So, I can't be compassionate for these
people because I'm judging their action,

which is not fair to them really.

But so what?

Sorry.

But, but so I, I think the real
answer is to just really stay at a

judgment and do everything we can.

And I think, you know, there's certain,
so social morays that I will always

judge and have issues about, like,
people that hurt little children, period.

Sorry, you know, don't work with
them, don't wanna work with them.

Doesn't mean they don't deserve compassion
from some, it's just not, I don't

have an in me to do it, but I think
it's staying curious and compassion in

accessing these ventral, vagal pathways.

Rupert Isaacson: And so can,
so let's go back to horses.

we talk about co-regulation.

So if we can be in the, If we can
cohere with a nervous system that

is regulated so we can be around
a horse that's calm, for example.

can something as simple as that in
a, in an environment with no bad

sensory triggers or nothing where
we feel a threat, can those two

things help us just simply to get
into that curiosity, compassion,

ventral strategizing, social thing.

Something as simple as I'm, I'm
going out into a nice environment.

The people around me are, okay, this
horse is cool and it's now regulating me.

Rebecca Bailey: I, I really believe that.

I also think practicing breathing in a way
that's, you know, not complex, sort of a

shorter breath in, longer out, being aware
of being really present in the moment.

Smell, especially horses, although some
people say they don't like the smell, but

smelling the barn and feeling like the
tactile just feeling, I, I don't believe

it's just horses that help the shift.

I think it's all of it.

Having somebody there with you who
makes you feel safe or, you know,

or if they're your horses, you
know, and you feel comfortable.

But yes, I believe that that
shift can help your body.

Recognize it as a healthy homeostasis,
but you have to remember to carry

it with you out of the situation.

You know, you're driving down the
road and somebody cuts you off and

you're like, get the blank out of
the way and you're, you nerve up.

Well, I'll even tell you a better example.

So I would had to get two crowns the
other day and it really hurt in my

mouth and I was like, really hurting.

The Novocaine wasn't working
or whatever they give you now.

And I suddenly really started riding
my horse on my head, not on my head,

riding my horse on top of a hill
that I loved to let him walk up to at

his own accord with the loose rain.

And he stands there and we look
out over the valley and then when

he is ready to move, he moves.

And so I put myself in that place and
I just completely enveloped and tried

to remember the smell and just being
on his back and it felt so much better.

It felt, and I shifted.

I shifted internally.

Rupert Isaacson: Were you in your
ventral vagal or were you in your dorsal.

Well used

Rebecca Bailey: to, I was sympathetic.

I wanted to get the heck out of there.

I wanted to run like hell.

And then I started getting a little
bit like in my head, like, this

dentist doesn't know what he's doing.

Why is it not going out?

Later he explained to me about this
particular tooth and why the nerve is hard

to, to innerate to put the medicine in.

But so I went into this
cerebral thing, like, this guy

doesn't know what he's doing.

I gotta get outta here.

And then I went to, oh my God,
just, just sit here and be in it.

It hurts.

It hurts, it hurts.

And just sort of a dal.

And then I went, wait a second.

What is the grounding piece in me?

So that goes back to your question.

If you allow yourself to look for like
what Deb called, Deb Dana calls the

glimmers, the beautiful things, the
things that bring us back into our

body, this oxytocin and vasopressin
and somehow is released in our

body, we can help our body restore.

Now the problem is there are
people that live in situations

that are so dire, right?

So dire.

How do they do that?

But the thing is they do, they
find those moments of grounding.

And you know, I talked to somebody
who just came out of Ukraine who was

talking the experience about being
in the middle of this village or this

town that was being bombed and just
this thing that they held onto was the

vision of it was the also a hillside.

And that was the thing that
brought them back in their body

when they were out of the fear.

So I think we can.

Rupert Isaacson: But, so talk us through
when you're doing that, whether it's in

the dentist or they're in Ukraine, what's
going on in the vagal pathways and system?

What's the dance between sympathetic,
parasympathetic, and so forth?

Rebecca Bailey: So what I think, what
I think and what, you know, I guess the

research shows is that what would many
things are happening, neurotransmitters,

all of these pieces are happening.

But if we go to the simple nervous
system piece, the ventral vagal

again, is overseeing everything
going on up here, kind of helping

you be present in some level.

You're, you know, whatever,
that's taking you the wrong way.

But you're either going into the
deep fear where the digestion

rest and digest is going offline.

Your stomach starts hurting, it
doesn't feel good to sit still.

You start no noticing stomach problems
or you're sympathetic anxiety.

You feel anxious, you wanna get
out of there, you wanna fight.

So that's also even something
to think about when you're in an

argument with a partner or a friend.

Like if you can look at it like, my
sympathetic is being activated right

now, and by the way, I use activated
not triggered because there's been

so many mass shootings that the word
triggered activates people in itself.

So you're activated, you're in an
argument instead of getting into.

Up into your brain about it.

You go to a part that says, I am just
feeling fight or flight right now.

I can't problem solve until
I walk away and come back.

Or the same thing, your stomach
hurts so much or you can't

sleep in all of these things.

When we notice our stomach problems, when
we notice digestion, when we notice all

these things, it means that something is
very much outta balance in our system.

Our system needs good ventral,
vagal oversight, but also all these

other pieces to function well.

Rupert Isaacson: Is there a shamanic
ability within the vagal system?

Rebecca Bailey: Tell me,
tell me more what you mean.

Rupert Isaacson: what I mean is almost
like a metaphysical above, above the

physical, ability within the relationship
between these different parts of the

vagal response to say, okay, things
are really, really shit right now,

or whatever is going on right now.

I'm thinking about alter
sets of consciousness too.

I need now an alter set of consciousness
and therefore there's a, is is there

a wisdom in the bo Is that what
shape shifting is basically, is there

Rebecca Bailey: is that, go ahead.

No, I'm jo, I'm nodding my head cuz
yes, I really believe so when people.

Yes, I really think so.

I think that there is this, like,
whether it's magical, mystical, woo,

whatever it is, there's this way that
your body, your nerve autonomic nervous

system says, I gotta take over here.

I gotta do this right now.

And if your brain is arguing
with it, it is just, it's so,

such a simple way to look at it.

But I just, you have, you give into
whatever this thing and this mystical

part of your body is and kind of let it
guide you in the moment for survival.

So when I have, you know, I was
working with somebody the other

day who had God years of sexual and
abuse and trafficked as a child.

And they've given, been given this
message that they never fought back

and they, this happened to them
because they were the most likely to

have, they just had this narrative
that was really kind of sad to shame.

And what I'm trying to help them see is
that you survived your nervous system,

knew that there was nothing you could do,
like the boarding school with these crazy

people that were trafficking them to your
parents and your parents' best friends.

Nothing you could do.

And it was very interesting because then
they were talking about some of the,

restrictions that they went through.

And I've heard this from so many.

Right now, mostly women, some men where,
you know, they'd have bags put over

their heads, and this is an activator
or alert, you know, situations happen

where their breath was restricted while
they were being sexually assaulted.

And what their body did was
just go into this fear shutdown.

Their brain said, I can't deal with this.

That's what I think.

I, I can't, if I sit here,
I'm gonna die of fear.

I've just gotta check out.

And to me, I think
that's like a superpower.

I don't know.

I have always said to people, and I've
been told before I worked with these

people, I probably would've fought
like a cat and gotten myself killed.

But what, anytime I've said
that, everybody says, you don't

know until it happens to you.

You just don't know.

And may it never happen to me like that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It might be, it might be context specific.

So maybe the same person, let's
say for example, you're a warrior,

male or female, and you access
an altered set of consciousness

where you, you can preserve, yep.

Rip off all your clothes, run into the
blades, they'll bounce off you because

you are in that metaphysical state.

At that point, then perhaps you
get failed because it wears off.

That super adrenaline thing, you
get taken prisoner and then a whole

other set of responses kick in.

But are they actually the same response?

Is it.

The one is, is, is, is,
appropriate to fight.

So that's what you use at that
particular one, and the other one

is appropriate to appeasement.

So you use that one at that time.

And if you could dance between
those two, presumably you

might survive that campaign.

Yep.

Take that wisdom home with you and use it
for the general, wisdom of the community.

Say, well, yes, I, I, I was
both a fighter and an appa.

It's all about the context.

One could imagine surely that it's
not just purely personality driven,

it must also be context driven, right?

Rebecca Bailey: Context driven and
maybe temperament in some levels, or,

you know, the, the, if you are highly
prone to being super reactive, maybe

it's harder or highly prone to, high
sensei to sounds and all of that.

Your ability to regulate under that term,
under those conditions might be harder.

You know, I, I think it,
it's, it's all it is.

It's dependent on context,
dependent on temperament,

maybe dependent on opportunity.

When I first started this crazy, like
thinking about all this stuff, I was

really into the learned helplessness
model, and that was in their early

nineties, that Martin Seligman, who
discredited himself by being part of the,

Committee that helped with Guantanamo Bay
for, which was like amazing and really sad

because he's also the daddy of optimism.

Very interesting.

So early on I was into his theory
of learned helplessness where

dogs give up when in a maze and
they just lay down and give up.

And that was how I would explain many
of these people that I was working with.

This would be like 80, early nineties
until I started really talking to

them and I'd be like, wait a second.

You were no, no way.

You were helpless, right?

This, you were as far from helpless
as anybody I've ever heard.

You were in a helpless situation,
but you prevailed through your

ability to manage it in your body.

And so that's kind of sort of
really shifting things for me.

And I think horses, I mean, I think
horses are, I do think horses, and this

is another hole, but I just, I think
horses in some ways are appeasers too

because, you know, and I do, I actually,
I love to ride and I love my horses.

I love being around them on the ground
next to them, watching them, whatever.

I actually have a couple that
really do like to be ridden.

They really do.

I mean, it's no question.

They're, you know, they, but I
still think there's an appeasement

piece that happens with them.

You know, that they're in a
situation that there's really no,

there's really no escape from it.

But if you ride beautifully, incorrectly
and try not to yank on their mouth and

hit them in the sides and all these
things that we humans sometimes will do,

then there can be a mutual connection.

But it takes a lot of work.

Rupert Isaacson: But isn't that the
same as every, every relationship?

I mean, I'm just thinking about,
you know, one's relationships in

a marriage or one's relationships
as child to parent or whatever.

Appeasement is part of the
puzzle every, every day.

It's like there's, there's
always compromises being

made and you let that one go.

And the more you let go,
actually the smoother things go.

Even if you're, it's not fair, but okay.

Right, right.

It's not that important, but one
could argue that that's appeasement.

Right?

I mean, I, I remember hearing people
talking about masking as if it's a

bad thing and thinking, well, hold on.

That's a survival skill, right?

I mean, if you, if you were hunting a
deer and you put on the garb of the deer

with the atlas that's masking so that
you can mask yourself as the deer or a

masked ball where you take on it or, or,
or role play or that's, that's, again,

shamanic or, you know, shape shifting.

Surely these things aren't
all positive or all negative.

Aren't aren't, aren't they, aren't
they simply the dance that we do?

Yeah.

Through human relationship to and,
and inter species relationship,

I guess, to try to get the
best outcome in a given moment.

I mean,

Rebecca Bailey: yeah, I think so.

I don't, the one that I have issue
with is fawning because in the

animal kingdom when an animal fawns
at a predator, they get killed.

And so fawning has sort of taken legs as
a word that I really, I, I bristle at.

It's come outta my mouth.

I know it has, but I bristled because
it really is a, it's also number one,

it's a conscious thought where I don't
think appeasement is a conscious thought.

And number two, it can.

Serve to agitate an aggressor.

And number three, if we start using
it too much, I hate to think in our

courtrooms when the defense attorney
says, but didn't you fawn, if we start

giving it air, it really, it concerns
me cuz I think, I think right now it's

a very hip word to use and I'm always
getting myself in trouble by saying,

look, can we come up with a better word?

Because, veterans in, you know,
prisoner of wars didn't fawn over

their aggressors and we would never
say that, but it's interesting.

Anyways, Rupert, I, it,

Rupert Isaacson: it's, well, it's
interesting the word fawn because, we

talk, you know, foreign, what is it?

A baby deer, right?

Right.

And, a baby deer.

What does a baby deer do?

It lies down.

Yep.

And it hopes that, finds it right.

That's all it does.

It doesn't approach a predator
and go, Hey, do you want a beer?

You know?

Right.

So why do we use that word?

Rebecca Bailey: Well, it's become,
it became recently in sort of the

trauma community, and I've had some
legitimate, discussions where some

people have said, look, in my society
as a woman, that's the only power

I'm allowed is toan over the man.

And, and there's some credence.

But how it's different than appeasement
is, it's a conscious play I see.

And where appeasement is unconscious,
it's this unconscious process

you can't conc consciously.

And I think about that and I
think, is that really true?

Will, is it all black and white?

No.

my gosh.

I, I, I, I just, the word is so
offensive to my nervous system.

My new thing is how does that feel on
my nervous system when I say a word?

And just because I feel it doesn't mean
you're not gonna have a hundred people

sending you notes saying, you know,
I love that word, blah, blah, blah.

Okay.

You know, that's, that's okay too.

It's just a word that I have.

As much as Stockholm Syndrome
really disturbed me, I get

afraid that that's gonna be
memorialized in the literature and.

I just, I don't wanna go backwards
in the way we help people understand

their systems and the way that we,
you know, I wanna go forward, which

I think we have an opportunity too.

People like you out there, people like
all these other great people talking

about horses is having their own nervous
system and all these things, like,

we're moving in the right direction.

Let's just not fall back
with words like fawning.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And in my diet.

Well, right.

No, that, and that brings me to the
next, the question, which is the future.

what's your vision for the
Equine Polyvagal Institute?

What, what do you want
to achieve with this?

In a perfect world,

Rebecca Bailey: we are really looking
for and hoping to have people taking

the courses and understanding it
and taking it into their community

and creating their programs.

So we have things like polyvagal ponies
that we work with where it's an eight

session, I hate to say about protocol
designed to help people work with their

nervous system before they have to
testify in court or things like that.

Oh.

So it's not a therapeutic.

So there's all these different
things, programs that we're developing

in the hopes that people bring
'em into their community to help

people with their nervous system
and regulate their nervous system.

We're also developing videos that people
can use in their offices, in areas

where they can't have access to a horse.

To sort of help them learn
some of the lessons we all

have by being with the horses.

So we're just hoping we grow, we're hoping
we teach people to play and have fun.

what doesn't maybe come through for
me today is I am a big goof, and

maybe it did, but I like to laugh.

I like to play.

I love humor.

And, just hoping to maybe shine a
different perspective on self-awareness

and therapeutic interventions.

So it's, it's a very love.

If someone, if someone

Rupert Isaacson: was, working in the
field of equine assisted interventions,

and obviously many of the people
listening are, what do you feel is

the best value that they could get
from interaction with the Equine

Polyvagal Institute in whatever way?

What, what, what, what's, I think we

Rebecca Bailey: go on our website
and check it out and, you know,

there's so many new people out there.

I got involved with this stuff,
as I said in the early nineties.

Polyvagal didn't come to
fruition until about 2012.

just the concept.

Check into, go to the Polyvagal
Equine Institute, see what we're

doing, see if it resonates.

Find your herd with, within this wonderful
field of equine therapy or whatever

we're gonna call it, it's building.

Find your people.

And within that, so if you come to us
and you're like, I really like this.

I wanna take the fundamentals
class, this is really cool.

I wanna go do one of the trainings.

Do it.

I'm doing a training over in, somewhere
in Belgium and in France doing Arizona,

hopefully Costa Rica, California.

So we're taking it to different places.

Check it out, see what you think.

Maybe you don't like it.

Maybe you're, you know, into
arches or somebody else.

we're only interested in people coming
that really wanna learn, learn, just

learn from our perspective right
now and bring their perspective.

You know, sometimes you have people
that wander in and they're just in

a different mindset and don't come.

If it doesn't resonate,
that sounds really terrible.

But, you know, I, I am who I am.

I'm 62 years old and I'm only
more me than I've ever been.

And I continue to be
more me than ever before.

And so, yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: but let's, that's me.

Okay.

I'm doing horse boy stuff, so I'm,
I'm working with the vagal nerve,

you know, so I'm trying to induce
oxytocin, stradling up the vagal nerve.

It's touching every organ we're
getting, hopefully we're, you know,

telling the amygdala, Hey, you
don't need to create that cortisol.

Let's get that prefrontal
cortex, go and get it.

So I'm saying, well, hey, look,
I'm, I'm working here with the

vagal nerve, but, but what can
I, how can I improve my practice?

How can I, what can I learn?

What can I,

Rebecca Bailey: I want you to come to
our five day in August when you come to

Sonoma, California and you come visit
your dear friend over at Square Pegs.

We have a five day that you're

Rupert Isaacson: Joel Dunlap.

By the way, that is everybody.

If you haven't listened to
her podcast, she's amazing.

Gotta listen to Joel Dun that he's
the best people on the planet.

Well, yes.

What would I, what would me and Joel
do if we came to you to, you would,

Rebecca Bailey: you would come to
our, our five day, the three days at

level one and then level two, and you
would learn about how we work with the

polyvagal, principles with the horses.

And it's on the ground.

You join a group of people that are
somewhat like-minded, who really wanna

understand how to incorporate another
level of their own self-awareness

and connection to the work.

You could also go online and watch our
fundamentals class, and understand a

little bit more of the fundamentals.

But honestly, the best thing to do
is come and participate in the class.

And what we really wanna do, if
you're really asking, is have some

satellite programs that are doing it.

And very much kind of like what
you've done with your horse boy

is people that really understand.

It's very interesting though,
Rupert, that you and I.

Again, have run in the same
herds without meeting people.

And people that mean the most in my
life, like joy from Red Barn and new

friend of mine, Joelle, are very dear
friends of yours and very dear friends

of mine, which tells me we're all
in the same sphere in a lot of ways.

So I challenge you come
for five days with us.

We

Rupert Isaacson: invite, I, I'd love
to, I guess what I'm driving at, and I,

I'm sure I'll actually is, is what do
you think, I or someone else in my shoes

could take away to their practice that
okay, we get to your five days we go away.

Right?

Right.

What, what, what, what?

How do we improve our practice

Rebecca Bailey: with this?

You get outta your head, you
get outta your head, you get

outta the amygdala stuff.

You get out of all of that.

And even you have done that a little bit
because that's your orientation, right?

Just like if I come to one of your things,
I'm going to get something different.

Mm-hmm.

But you're gonna really get outta your
head back into your body in a way that

you probably have naturally been doing
all these years anyways, and beginning to

understand that piece and the nuance of
the interaction of the nervous systems.

And you're gonna be stopped
from going back up into the

medella and all of that piece.

You're gonna be encouraged to go
back into this piece and sort of re.

Reposition your perspective, and you may
walk away saying, I got it, I got it.

I already knew all this.

That Then we have a home run
because we want you to be

imperative of who you already are.

Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think you,
you answered my question with that,

phrase, understand the nuances, the
interactions of the nervous systems.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that, that's for me,
that piece of the puzzle.

So when, when I'm going around,
for example, like you, I'm, I'm,

I'm doing trainings and workshops
in different places, and people

come and we say, look, we're not
telling you to do anything different.

In fact, we know that you're doing
an amazing job wherever you are.

Here are simply a series
of a set of tools.

which if you add them to
your already awesome thing,

simply, develops it further.

That's all.

But we, we know that if you
never interacted with us at

all, you'd go on being awesome.

It's just Right.

I love that.

Real curious.

But what I, what I love about what
you just said, that is, and that

would be the tempting thing for
me, is like, Ooh, actually, yeah.

Cuz I, I do work with the nervous system.

I'm deeply interested in the nervous
system, so anyone who can shine some

light for me on further nuances.

I mean, because that for me is a,
is a series of tools that I know I'm

gonna be able to use effectively.

Not just with the, the clients
that I'm working with, but also

with myself, like as a user manual.

Also my, my interactions with my own
horses in my sport horse and dressage

life, not just in my equine assisted
life, nuances of the interaction

to the different nervous systems.

I can't imagine that any of us
could not benefit from that.

Right.

Rebecca Bailey: I, and I love when
people come and we learn too, and we

get a lot of feedback, which I'm very
proud of where people say, this is

one of the very few places that I feel
like I can bring my expertise too.

And, and you know what I, I mean,
to me that's like so important.

Yeah.

And yes, we do have a personal
and professional awareness,

one that we're also doing a
two days, which is really fun.

People that maybe don't ever
wanna do equine work, they just

wanna learn more about themselves.

So, the most exciting thing though
is that I'm connecting with amazing,

incredible people that I've always meant
to connect with, but never did before.

And I'm so honored you had me on this

Rupert Isaacson: podcast.

It's a no-brainer.

It's a no-brainer.

I mean, I, I heard
about what you're doing.

It's like, well, obviously
everyone needs to know about this.

I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's advancing the field.

, some questions, you mentioned
a couple of people that I think

people will be curious about.

You mentioned Deb Dana.

Can you tell us a little bit about
Deb Dana and where people could

find out about her and what insights

she

Rebecca Bailey: can give?

So Deb Dana is amazing in that
she is a very close friend of Dr.

Porges and she sort of takes Porges work
and makes it more, understanding to lots

of people and all you have to do, yeah,
all you have to do is put in Deb Day and

Ann, you'll see all, all over the place.

I do notice, do know that they are
going to be in, London at some master

series in, the end of August and Porges
will be there with Deb and they're

just really wonderful to listen to.

I think Bessel will be
there, Steven Levine.

So they're all, some of these guys
are part of the old school that

have brought so much to the field
and Deb is very refreshing in that

she has just a different style.

She does very office-based work, but
very similar to something we do is like,

do you want me to stand here or here?

Where is it the most comfortable
in your nervous system?

She does that work in her office.

So she has a book called Anchored.

She has a, she just has amazing
resources, so just put her in and

you'll get more information than.

Rupert Isaacson: So anchored
some someone's driving around and

they might want to listen to an
audiobook anchored by Deb Dana, you

Rebecca Bailey: mentioned it's good
if her voice is so soothing though.

She can also put you to, I mean, I,
I've listened to her on planes and

her voice is very much like this
and so I'm not sure I drive around.

I might sit and listen,

Rupert Isaacson: so, so don't
operate heavy machinery.

Okay.

you mentioned another
but Power of the Herd,

Rebecca Bailey: that's Linda Kahani and
Linda Kahan is a good friend of mine

and Des opponent Quest International.

She and I met and worked
together many years ago.

We started something called Connection
Focus Therapy, which is has grains

of polyvagal very much in it.

And she wrote a really neat book
called The Power of the Herd.

She's written, she also wrote
the Dow of Equus and all sorts

of books that people know.

the power of the herd.

I actually happen to like, because we
use it with a polyvagal twist of like

looking at leadership characteristics.

So it's another one Power of the Herd's.

Really good.

five roles of the master herd.

She's written a lot of great stuff
and she's, she's really interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: This, this brings me to
another thing which you said right at the

beginning of of, of this conversation,
you talked about, study that had been

done, with women who were used to working
with horses and other animals and it

gave them that somehow measurably.

This, leadership quality.

Yep.

Would you say that what you guys
are doing at Equine Polyvagal

Institute might help people access
that kind of leadership quality?

I

Rebecca Bailey: think so.

You know, I think about, I have a horse
now and I've ridden my whole life.

I'm not, I'm an accomplished
rider, but not a horse.

Professional horses kind of
spit tobacco at me and say,

prove it before they listen.

But I've had all sorts of wonderful
dressage horses, et cetera.

And I recently got a horse about
two years ago who was a recovered

bucking horse, believe it or not.

Okay.

And I fell in love with his look
and just fell in love with him.

And if you ask him for the first
year, Rupert, we could only go forward

two or three steps before he'd buck.

Okay.

And everybody was like, he's
got, you know, health problems.

And the vet would say no in NF health
problems, it's taken me two years.

He's the horse that I now think
of when I ride up on the hill.

I had to learn to completely shift my
mindset to the power of connection.

And so when I ride him, the only thing I'm
allowed to do is think 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2.

I have to be a hundred percent with
him, a hundred percent with him.

And he would take me to
the moon if he could.

Period

Rupert Isaacson: is the
power of connection, courage.

Rebecca Bailey: I think it's,
no, I think it's, curiosity.

I had to spend, I had to spend a
whole year trying to be curious

about what would help this guy
get out of his activated state.

How

Rupert Isaacson: did you, how did
you override your parasympathetic

fear of being bucked off?

Rebecca Bailey: Oh, I just had
to keep reminding myself that I

wasn't about to go on a horse show.

I had to just keep, I had to
keep reminding myself that I

was there for the connection.

And I over and over and over, and my
dear friend Margie, who helped start the

Polyvagal Institute with me, one of the
other founders, she said, you know, I,

I've ridden for, with her for 43 years.

I used to show with her and she said,
oh my God, I've waited for 40 years for

you to find this horse, you know, and he
is put together with tobacco, you know,

with gum, and, you know, and I've had
like Hannah variance and for caterers

and, you know, third level dressage.

And, but she's like,
he got, he, you got it.

And it's, it's not courage,
because courage implies

for me, dominance with him.

It's just, listen, listen,

Rupert Isaacson: be curious.

What I mean by courage though, is
the courage to get on the back of

a horse that, you know is likely
to buck and access that curiosity.

But you know, what's,

Rebecca Bailey: how is that not courage?

Well, it's the, it's the match
of nervous system because think

of Freia, the one that bucks.

Mm-hmm.

Two with the turkeys.

I got no courage with that one.

But my nervous system gets too activated
by her for whatever reason where summit

can do the same thing, not quite as big.

And my nervous system knows for
some reason how to calm down.

So it's a match of nervous system.

Maybe it's courage.

I don't know.

I, I is

Rupert Isaacson: a match of nervous
systems, what we call chemistry,

Rebecca Bailey: maybe.

Yeah, maybe.

Or maybe attunement.

How about that?

That's a better word.

Attunement being really attuned each

Rupert Isaacson: other.

Explain, explain what
you mean by attunement.

That's

Rebecca Bailey: interesting.

So attunement goes way back to
psychodynamic psychoanalytical stuff

where, you know, your ability to
really sense the other person and the

other, it's co-regulation at its best.

Okay.

attunement is what we used
to try to teach people.

In the th in graduate schools.

And yet it was often a one-way attunement.

Like you never expected your
client to be in tuned with you.

And I always was like, wait a
second, I'm in the room too.

How come I'm not allowed to care?

You know?

And so I gave, some of my, and
that was the time I was hanging

around with the Grateful Dead.

I was doing my grad school work.

And so I gave them a run for their money.

I'd be like, that makes no sense.

And honestly, Rupert, when I graduated
True story, the dean of student pulled

me aside and said, you're one of
the few students we haven't ruined.

And you know what I said?

I said, cuz I didn't
understand a damn thing.

You people were talking about it.

And it's true.

I didn't understand what they meant
with this thing of like, blank screen.

It's like, what?

What is that?

Yeah.

You know, I don't know what that means.

What do you mean blank
screen with the client?

I'm in there too.

We're in a relationship.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Really it it dealing with the world
as it is, as it comes to you, I guess.

Yes.

Yes.

We talked about other people's books.

you have books.

Tell us about your books.

I,

Rebecca Bailey: you know, I have one
book and I say it's sort of apologetic.

I, I self co, I self-publish Equine
Connection and polyvagal principles

that I wrote during, COVID.

It's basically just the beginning of a
throw down of the story of this work.

It's not, it's not it yet.

And I'm working on the it.

I also have one Save Kids Smart Parents.

It was as Simon and
Schuster published book.

it, it's, it was actually quite good,
but it's a little bit hard to find.

And then I also have, the
thing I'm really proud of is a

paper with Deb Dana and a Dr.

Davis on Polyvagal in the courtroom
looking at about how polyvagal

principles and high conflict divorce,
how important it is that everybody,

attorneys and judges all understand
the importance of regulation.

And then I have this one I wrote
with Porges on Appeasement,

which is, sub published in the
British Journal of Traumatology.

So as a dyslexic who rambles a lot,
I'm very proud of the academic papers,

although I would rather go get two
more crowns without Novocaine than

continue to write the academic papers.

But right now I'm working
on another polyvagal paper.

I'm in another polyvagal book.

and I also have a crazy book that
I'm thinking that, I won't tell you

what it is until it's done, but I'll
give you a hint when we're not on the

Rupert Isaacson: podcast.

I've got one of those too.

do you?

Yeah, yeah.

Which I've been saying.

I'm, I'm gonna finish next year
for about the last 15 years.

probably more like 20,
but I will finish it.

Rebecca Bailey: But, alright, well,
we'll trade and then we'll check in with

each other about it because Okay, good.

I like it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And then, so finally,
how do people contact you

Rebecca Bailey: through the,
polyvagal Equine Institute?

Ww polyvagal equine institute.com,
office at Polyvagal Equine Institute?

I think it's also important to
know that JC Dugard, who was

abducted at 11 and returned after,
gosh, 18 years with two children.

I originally met her when she was
deposited literally in my program.

She also wrote a really
interesting and yet very activating

book called The Stolen Life.

And the second half of the book is
very much about the type of equine

work that we were doing at the time.

she was, you know, people
say, oh my gosh, this was your

client and now you're working.

What happened after three years?

She said, I do not want to
go forward being known as the

little girl that was abducted.

Can you help me make my
story mean something?

So we went into consult for three
months and worked it out and, have gone

forward to help create the Polyvagal
Equine Institute so that people can

have some of the same experience.

So her book A Stolen
Life, is also wonderful.

Margie also has a book called, notes
from the Barn, which is really sweet.

You'd really like it.

Rupert too.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: so Jason, A Stolen Life.

Margie McDonald.

Notes.

Notes for the phone.

Rebecca Bailey: Okay.

Yeah.

And Polyvagal Equ Polyvagal Principles.

Equine Connections or Safe Kids.

Smart Parents.

Rupert Isaacson: Polyvagal Principles.

Equine connections.

And safe kids.

Smart parents.

Okay.

They can go on Amazon and find these.

Yep.

Okay.

Yep.

Okay.

Listeners, you have your reading list.

and one more time, give people the
URL they might have been driving.

They might need to pull off and write it.

Give us the url, give us your email.

Rebecca Bailey: How can they contact you?

It's ww polyvagal equine institute.com and
it's office at Polyvagal Equine Institute.

And if you want something to get directly
to me, just say Rebecca or aka a Dr.

B and I will get it.

Super.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

All right.

I can't wait to come check it out.

Yeah.

Good.

Yay.

I will be in California.

I'm, I'm, you know, I'm there every,
at least once a year, sometimes twice.

so Can I swing

Rebecca Bailey: by you better?

You guys spoke better and,
maybe we can get joy back

Rupert Isaacson: out here.

Would love that.

Yeah.

Joy.

Joy.

Yeah.

For those of you who might have missed
Joy O'Neill's, podcast that she did

with us, that she runs Red Barn in
Alabama, one of the great unsung

heroes of the equine assisted world.

Check her

Rebecca Bailey: out.

She really is.

You know, Rupert, after my house
burned down, my grandmother

was a children's author and I'd
only mentioned it once to Joy.

She went on and found every one of my
grandmother's books and sent them to me.

Yeah.

Within six weeks of my house burning down,
she, we call, we all call her mama Joy.

And when you meet her, you understand.

And she is absolutely, she and her
daughter are crazy and crazy amazing.

So they're,

Rupert Isaacson: they're, they're,
they're, and you know, as, as Jo Joy

shows up, she's from Alabama, she's very
much a southern, but blah, blah, blah.

Oh, I didn't realize she had
this whole punk rock background.

And I was like, I love you forever, joy.

You know, it's just like, yeah.

Rebecca Bailey: Oh, a ask her to
tell you about who her boyfriends

were in high school too.

It's, it's, there's so many things
about her that you'll be driving

down the road and she'll say
something and you'll go, what?

So anyways.

All right.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Well listen, thank you so, so much.

Rebecca, this has been amazing.

It's been in informative, it's been
educational, it's been inspirational.

I look forward to more, if people
have, questions, would you come

back on and maybe we could answer?

Rebecca Bailey: Absolutely.

I would love to.

I would absolutely love to.

Rupert Isaacson: So that's my sneaky
way of getting you for around two.

I know.

I'd love to.

thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to check out our online

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