Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

With me today, . I've got Catherine
Ward and her daughter, Nicole Jones,

who together run a pioneering place
in Houston, Texas called One Acre Farm

where they do all kinds of miracles.

So the reason why I want them on the
show is a lot of us think of equine

assisted stuff happening in large rural
areas where we have a lot of space.

One acre farm is just that, and it's
within the city limits of Houston,

and it's a bit of a groundbreaking
concept and it shows what really

can be done with very little.

So any of you think, well,
I haven't got enough space.

You kind of need to hear a little bit
how Catherine and Nicole maximize what

they've got and achieve results that are
frankly, quite breathtaking with kids.

So welcome to the show.

Catherine and Nicole, please tell
us who you are and what you do.

Catherine Ward: Hey, Robert,
thank you for having us.

We're, we're quite honored
and excited to be with you.

I'm Catherine Ward.

We live about 35 miles
north of Houston in Porter.

I own and run one acre farm.

And it started probably in 1999.

Our very first class was how to
Raise Chickens in Your Backyard.

Because of our location where we are
while we're kind of rural, we're set in a

very urban or very suburbanite type area.

And so there are a lot of, a lot of women
that live in neighborhoods that wanna have

four or five chickens in their backyard.

And so that was our, our goal to
kind of kind of get started there.

Then we started classes for Homeschoolers
and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.

And then fast forward to from 1999
to 2016 when we met you and then

got our certification in Horse
Boy Method and Movement Method and

added that to all of our programs.

And then fast forward to 2021 and
we opened an outdoor farm school.

And so now with all of the programs
that we have from kids aren't in

play, our Sensory Saturday, our
private autism sessions and our

elementary farm school and our early
childhood farm school, we service

about a hundred to 150 kids a month.

Rupert Isaacson: Impressive.

Thanks.

Okay.

Nicole, who are you?

Yeah.

In this

Nicole Jones: so I'm obviously
a daughter of Catherine.

I'm a mom of two and my two kids come
with me to the farm school that we run.

I was a horsey kid.

I was homeschooled all the way through.

So, I was homeschooled on a farm.

Very similar to how a lot of the
kids that we work with today are

being schooled and had a lot of
interaction with animals growing up.

A lot of autonomy to my day.

A lot of movement involved in my
homeschooling and education growing up.

And so currently I am the early
childhood teacher at this school.

And then also Catherine.

I co-create curriculum together
for things that we're doing on

the farm and for other people who
are interested in, in curriculum.

But a lot of what got us, or at least
got me to where we are with the school

now was the homeschooling background.

A lot of the horsey stuff growing up.

And then I was also an a, b, a
therapist early on in my, teaching

days I wanted to become a teacher.

I got into a BA therapy but very quickly
realized it didn't sit right with me.

I was there for about two years and just
felt like there was something missing.

I, I loved getting to have the
relationship with children and

being able to be one-on-one with
kids and grow that relationship.

But being a 19, 20, 20 1-year-old
teacher, I was just still not knowing

much and not being in the field very long.

It just wasn't sitting right with my
spirit, the things that I was being

told to do, and feeling like the,
the happiness of the children and the

joy of early childhood education was
just taken out of what we were doing.

And it all was very clinical.

It, it didn't have this while we were
building a relationship with kids.

It just didn't have that, that.

Fun aspect you would expect.

And you know, we, I was working with
children who were nonverbal who were poop

smears, eating their poop all the way,
you know, that might be a morning student.

And then an after Stu afternoon
student was someone who could read

and write and talking verbally.

And so putting those two kids in
the same class together, it was

just, there was a lot of disconnect.

And didn't, although I was working
for a very highly regarded a BA

clinic, I just felt like it just,
it wasn't sitting right with me.

And so not too long in the field
and just feeling like this isn't

right, I need to find something else.

I found Montessori education
very happenstance, and so I was

completing my college observation
time in different, you have to go to

different schools and observe classes.

And so I picked a Montessori school to
go see 'cause I just never heard of,

heard of it and wanted to see what it
was about and walked in and was just, in

10 minutes I was like, this, this is it.

This was the thing.

It was so similar to how I was
homeschooled as far as the kids

could walk around the class and
pick things they wanted to do.

There was interest led learning.

They could move around,
they could go outdoors.

They had this open space to their
day of, all right, I can pick

and choose what I want to do.

And the teachers would pop in and out as
they were needed and help direct the kids.

But it was, they had so much autonomy
to what they were able to do.

So, that night I went home, decided I
was gonna get training in Montessori.

I got certified the very next year.

I went through my one year
internship and 500 training hours

or whatever, and got that done.

And then went into Montessori education.

A couple years into that is when Catherine
and I went to temple Grandin's speech

and found you and then added this whole,
whole other aspect added to, oh my gosh.

Here's where, you know, while Montessori
education was originally based in

helping kids with special needs, there's
this whole other aspect of the science

I didn't understand, and that Dr.

Montessori was also trying to
understand and, you know, the neuro

neuro pathways that are formed
and all of that with movement.

Anyway, so we had all that added to
it, and then COVID happened, you know,

we were doing some, we were doing
some sessions with families, but then

COVID happened and a lot changed with
everybody, and Catherine and I decided

you know, this might be the time we want
to start something at one acre farm.

And we did that.

So I left my Montessori teaching job.

We went into this together and
it's been really great since then.

We just, we just keep on trucking.

Right.

So you,

Rupert Isaacson: you started Nicole
with special ed and as in America, as we

know, a lot of people are funneled into
applied behavioral analysis, A, b, A, and.

You know, like many of us,
you found it restrictive.

Catherine Ward: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Coercive not joyful.

Then you found Montessori which
is much closer in line with the

autonomy you've used that word.

I want to return to that word.

And why is autonomy important that you'd
experience, you know, homeschooling

or being homeschooled in nature?

It's interesting that you were
homeschooled because you know,

Catherine, you have been a teacher
in the regular school system, right?

Yes.

So can you talk us a little bit
through your background and career?

How did you as a regular
teacher then decide, well,

actually I want to homeschool.

And then how have you brought those
two things together into one acre farm

where you do have a school structure,
but of course you're now using I.

Montessori movement method and other
modalities, you know, altogether.

Can you just talk us through
that trajectory, please?

Catherine Ward: Sure.

I could, let me go back a little bit.

So I was born in Texas,
but raised in Louisiana.

My mom remarried when I was very young,
and it was a very unique upbringing

because my, my father, my stepfather
was one of the richest men in town.

So we lived in a huge mansion, but in
our back acreage was all this livestock.

So I was kind of raised in
a farm, like farm lifestyle.

I was also given that word
a lot of autonomy with being

able to take care of animals.

And my mom was very down to earth
and even though we lived such a

lavish life or we had access to that
kind of wealth she raised me in a

very down to earth type mentality.

So I'm very grateful for that.

So that I think came to play
later in life also, which, we'll,

we'll see the interconnection.

So then I came back to Texas in
1987 and then started college.

Well, I take that back.

When I was in New Orleans, I had.

I started college and my
first major was psychology.

No, my first major was marine biology,
and then I changed to psychology

and then I changed to pre-med, so
I wanted to go into medical school.

And then we moved to Texas.

I finished all of my pre-med and
got accepted into UTMB of Galveston

under their physical therapy program.

And they had only had out of, you
know how many hundreds of applicants.

Only 30 were accepted.

And so I was accepted and right
then before deciding to go to

medical school, I changed my major
again and went into education.

And so I had to start my college
pretty much all over again.

Went into education and graduated in
early childhood or with elementary

pre-K to eighth, early childhood
and reading specialization and

and my love of farm animals and
teaching just kind of combined.

So when I was married, we had a little
bit of acreage and then Nicole was

born to me and then her sister Kristen.

And it was even with my
public school teaching.

So after graduation, I did teach in the
public school system for a few years.

I taught kindergarten,
first grade and third grade.

And then once I had children, I thought,
oh my gosh, I don't wanna be away from

them and I know what the system is like,
and I know that they are gonna be in this

white room for eight hours that I was in.

And so it became a philosophical and
somewhat of a faith decision because I

also felt like, eight hours away from us.

That I, I wanted that influence
on them spiritually and in their

faith and in their philosophy.

So the decision to homeschool was made.

I left teaching and then I, we
homeschooled the girls their

whole career for homeschooling.

And, and as Nicole referred to,
it was a very relaxed atmosphere.

We spent hours and hours outside and
it was kind of naturally within me

to wanna follow their interest and
follow what they were interested in.

And, oh, I'm so, I have
so many squirrel moments.

It's like, oh, look, there's a bug.

Let's go look at that bug.

So we, their, their
homeschooling was very casual.

Of course, we had some regimented
things like, you have to learn math.

But for the most part because both of the
girls were interested in horses, I made

sure that they could get horse lessons.

And so while we couldn't afford
those types of things being on

one income we traded our work.

So we would go and muck stalls.

I think one of the places we went had
like 23 stalls, and we would go every

day and muck in the morning, 23 stalls
so that my girls could have lessons.

And then we borrowed horses from
other people so that they could

then learn how to ride barrels.

And we were very fortunate
that other people were willing

to work with us like that.

So both of the girls were, were able to
follow their, their interest with horses.

Rupert Isaacson: So you are, you
are there homeschooling, you are

trading your work for writing lessons.

You are doing it somewhat faith-based,
but also because you just don't

want to be away from them.

I've got a question, which is that
you, you, you mentioned having grown

up very wealthy, but then you are now
a one income family where you need to

trade mucking out for horse lessons.

If you're a listener, you
go, Ooh, what happened there?

What happened in that story?

Where'd the money go?

And how come you didn't sort of end up
with that entitled attitude that you might

have ended up with, you know, growing
up with, with, with money when the time

came that you didn't have money anymore?

Talk.

Talk us through those.

What's the missing bit of that story?

Catherine Ward: So, I mean, the
first loss of money was when my mom

subsequently divorced my stepfather.

And so then there, that family unit was
no, no longer connected in that split.

They did split the business.

They had several businesses.

We had car dealerships.

They built homes.

They had a boat shop.

He was into real estate, so there were
all kinds of things within the, the many

different cookie jars that were in there.

And so, my mom had to start off as a
single mom with myself and my sister.

And so she, in the divorce, she
took over one of the boat shops.

And over the next few years, she
became one of the most renowned

boat dealers in the United States
because she was a woman and she grew

that one business into three more.

So she took it from one location to two
more locations and and kind of became

a millionaire in her own right Then.

During that time, very sadly
my sister was killed in, in an

airplane crash, a private airplane.

And that, that completely changed
our family completely overnight.

To watch my mother grieve.

So deeply.

And then to watch my, my grandparents
in their own grief, but then having

to help support her and support me.

And you know, when you look at
your life as a timeline, my whole

life until the birth of my two
daughters, my life always had that.in

my timeline is that was the
anchor of my life before my sister

died and after my sister died.

And, and again, until Nicole and Kristen
were born, that's how I measured my life.

And, and it did forever change us.

And it forever changed our outlook
as a family and our connection.

During that time with my mom having
a boat shop or a boat dealership?

There were a few there were a
couple of of injuries that happened.

You know, like when you go to a
boat show that's in a huge arena

someone tripped and fell and cut
themself and of course sued her.

And then there were some other injuries.

And so those lawsuits just totally
demolished the business, right.

It, it just destroyed the business.

So we lost money.

Then she got out of the business and
decided to go into real estate and then

she made herself a millionaire again.

And and during that time, a lot of
people and friends wanted her to co-sign

for their own businesses and she did.

She was very generous.

And and then those would flop
and so she lost all of it again.

And then that was when we
decided in 1987, you know what,

I'm gonna go back to my roots.

My mom was, would say this,
I'm gonna go back to my roots.

Let's go back to Texas and
I'll go back to teaching.

'cause she had been a
school teacher before.

So we came back to Texas and
she went back to teaching.

And then that's when I was entering
college shortly after that.

Rupert Isaacson: Got

Catherine Ward: it.

And then, and then the lifestyle was just
a very middle s middle class lifestyle.

And then when I got married, the
same thing, just middle class.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

You, you mentioned I mean, it, it's very
interesting 'cause it gives you multiple

perspectives on life, you know, to go
from growing up wealthy to losing it all.

To intense grief to having, to
making it again, to seeing a business

how business can be destroyed.

You know, and this is something which
I think, you know, a lot of business

owners in America live justifiably in
fear of that day that somebody sues

you know, business friendly country,
but also business friendly for lawyers.

Sadly, you know, it, it, it can
wipe people out, but it certainly,

I think, gives you an interesting
place of empathy where you can say,

well, no matter who you're dealing
with, I've, I've lived that lifestyle.

And at the end of the day,
I know what's important.

You talk about faith-based, obviously
for my non-American listeners, you know,

when you're listening from a European
perspective and you hear about, you

know, Christian homeschooling, one
thinks of, you know, armed compounds

in the woods and you know, ex extremism
basically, and people being you know,

homeschooled so that they won't learn
about Darwin and that sort of thing.

But your way of teaching at one
acre farm is in no way like that.

So when you talk about faith
I'd just like you to, to talk

about how, how you guys consider
yourselves Christians and how that.

Works in an interplay, not just
with science teaching, but also

with, you know, what values are.

You know?

Because again, many of us in, in
Europe, we have a, a fear of religious

extremism because all our history
is learning about religious wars and

witch burnings and things like that.

I'm like, well, we don't wanna
go back there and we don't

want that kind of extremism.

We sometimes see that coming
out of the USAA little bit.

But knowing you as ideal, I
know that's not you guys at all.

So talk to me a little bit about how you
weave your, your faith into what you do.

'cause I think it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's useful for us on the

European perspective to consider this.

Catherine Ward: I, I think for me, I've
gone through some transformations through

the years and I would say that there was
a time that I was very tunnel visioned in

that my philosophy was the only philosophy
and, and or, or that the tenets of it are

a hundred percent the only way to think.

But then ironically, as I got exposed
to the world, it was actually an

aha moment when I was at your ranch
in Elgin at a training for Movement

Method and Horse Boy, where I met all
these people from all over the world.

Here at the ranch and we were all
learning Movement Method and Horse Boy

and, and I had gone there with such.

A thought process that, that I was,
I had already prejudged all these

people before I had ever even met them.

And I was now surrounded by people
that were so highly intelligent and all

had their own philosophies or faith.

But the, the common thing
that I saw was kindness.

Kindness and unconditional love,
which are the tenets of Christianity.

But I saw them, I saw it in people
that I would've never pinpointed as

being the evangelical Christian type
of western Christian that we have.

And that opened my mind to wow, there
is, to me, it became a universal

truth in my heart, that kindness
is of the utmost importance.

And so I came away from that
and I started to do studies on

ancient religions and stuff.

And, and I found that through some of
the, the, the basic first religions and

even Native American, that the common
tenant through all of that one is that

they all believe there is a creator of
whatever, whoever that creator is, at

least they acknowledge there's a creator.

And then second to that was just
kindness and unconditional love.

And that I feel like every day when I
wake up, that is what drives me every

day is to just to be kind to people.

And and I believe that as I see my
daughters, both of them as adults,

that they have such huge, kind
and compassionate and empathic.

Empathetic hearts.

I'm, I'm just very proud of
them for, for being that way.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's, you know, I think what often gets
lost in, in religion is spirituality,

you know, because of course, as soon as
you, you have a, a church or a temple or

whatever one wants to call it, usually
have a bloke, you know, standing there

with a jar that you can put your money
in and it sort of goes from there.

Whereas of course, yes, one's
relationship with the divine is one's

relationship with the divine and.

If there's a Christ message
out there, I think as you say,

it's, it's love by neighbor.

Catherine Ward: Well, you had asked how
we deal with that today at, at the school.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, we're not, we're
not a faith-based school.

We don't advertise ourselves as such.

And, and I think that was a decision that
Nicole and I made from the very beginning.

Mm-hmm.

That we did not want that, that,
not that we were turning our back

on anything, but that that is not
what we wanted as defining us.

And that we wanted to have an eclectic
group of people and kids because we wanted

the, like-mindedness to be what is the
goal of those parents for their children.

And we wanted, and those people
can come from all walks of life

if the goal for their child is to
be outdoors and to be free from

institutionalized type classroom.

And so we made that very conscious
decision to not advertise

ourselves as faith-based because
believe me, in this area I.

Where we are.

It, it, it could have
flourished even that way.

But how I speak with, with our
kids, 'cause I'm the teacher of

the elementary ages seven to 10.

And, and so we really delve
deep in our subject matter

is all of a animal husbandry.

So like, let's say we're talking about
chickens, we're gonna do the parts

of the body, the digestive system,
reproductive system where did they

originate, how did they migrate?

And so we interconnect geography
and history and all of the

subjects but studying chickens.

And we'll talk about DNA and we talk and
especially in the reproductive system.

And, and then a lot of times I'll, I'll.

Tell the kids, there are two
basic ways to look at the world.

You have one, one belief system
that believes that everything

was created by a creator.

And then you have another that
believes that everything was

happenstance through evolution.

But, and I tell 'em this is not
where we discuss or debate that what

I want y'all is I want y'all to see
how they can both be interconnected.

There are, there is science that
supports both, and we are going to stay

open-minded and look at the development
of chickens or goats or whatever from

that perspective and see that there's
probably bits of truth in both of it.

And, and I want them to kind of just
become their own independent thinkers.

And the parents have always
been very supportive and very

appreciative that we approach science
in, in that way with the kids.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean, you talk about the need to,
this word autonomy has come up and

of course autonomy is an intellectual
process as well as deciding what I

want to do from moment to moment.

Nicole, why do you feel autonomy
is so important in the development

of, of a human talk, talk,
talk, talk to us about this.

Nicole Jones: I think this goes back to
as I was writing some things down as my

mom was speaking, because her and I, I,
it's been a while since we've talked about

this subject, so I think this is good.

I agree with a, a main goal of mine is to
let kids be able to think for themselves

because the, the systems that we put
them through, tell them how to think,

tell them what to do, tell them when
to do it, and then they come out of the

system and they don't know what to do.

They don't know how to start a business.

They don't know how to balance
their, their bank accounts.

They don't know how to take care of
animals that like these basic human.

Just everyday requirements that we
have as, as adults that my friends at

30 still don't know how to do because
they went through the public school.

Like just those things that if you
don't know how to do something, that

you can go and figure out how to do it.

So having that self-directed autonomy
that homeschooling gives you, that farm

schooling, gives you that movement method.

Those types of based
educational methods give you it.

It doesn't matter what walk in life
you're going to do, if you want

to change careers or if you, you.

Decide to take a left turn somewhere.

If you have those skills in, okay, I can
do this and figure it out because I've

had the autonomy and the practice of I
want to start lemonade stand, or I want

to figure out how I can afford to keep
a horse for the year, you know, those

kinds of things then you're gonna be able
to succeed in, in just about anything.

And I think it's important to
start that very, very young.

I teach the kids ages four to seven
and these little four year olds, and

sometimes we have three year olds
they're feeding the animals themselves.

They come and tell us like, that
animal's poop looks different

today than it did yesterday.

Or do we need to check
and make sure it's sick?

Like, just those observational things
that we have lost being out of nature.

And so being, basically being able to,
to allow kids to think for themselves

and be those independent thinkers and
autonomy with your day gives you that.

And it doesn't mean that we just
let kids go and run around and

do whatever they want to do.

You know, there's a boundary to, okay,
you wanna throw mud, that's fine.

You can't throw it at other kids, but
you can go throw mud at the fence and

you can figure out how far you can
get it and who can get it farther?

Who can, does this mud stick to the tree?

Does it not stick to this tree?

And so we kind of approach
everything with that.

And that's based in, in our movement
method training and horse boy

training that we did years ago, it,
it really kind of pieced together

things that we were already doing and
experienced and found very important.

And just was that final piece to, to
make it all connect and make sense.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: well you used
the word connect, so Yeah.

I mean, it, it's a
well-known thing within.

Psychology, as you guys both know,
autonomy and connectedness, right?

That's always those, those seem
to be the two fundamental human,

psychological, social needs.

We need enough autonomy that we feel
self-actualized and we need enough

connectedness that we feel supported.

Connected.

And why would that be?

Well, we're herd animals.

At the end of the day.

We're pack animals, we're
middle tier predators.

And our only way of being top predator is
by talking to each other and strategizing.

And the moment one of us ends up two
autonomous, actually out on a limb,

well, that's when the hyenas get you.

But of course not enough autonomy.

Well then there's no innovation.

And it seems that because in a hunting
and gathering society, there are

more opportunities for connectedness
than there are for autonomy.

In, in our evolution, our social
evolution autonomy has been a bit of

a, sort of a luxury, a novel thing.

So we tend to seek it out in the same
way that we seek out sweet foods or

fatty foods, because in the wild, those
are in somewhat short supply and they're

nutrition packed and energy packed.

So we're gonna gravitate towards those.

Now we've, you know, got a society
where that's kind of all that's on

offer and it's killing us, but we're
still, we have a genetic drive for it.

Like we have a genetic drive for autonomy.

But one of the things which
we can often see is that.

Too much autonomy, oddly enough, can also
stand in the way of happiness and success.

And you, you know, the, when the
kids are working out what they

wanna do, how they wanna spend their
time, and making these decisions.

You also, of course, are having
to teach 'em about connectedness.

How do you work with a group?

And specifically how do
you seek out mentorship?

How do you know what you don't know?

And go and find out about
that, you know, as you need it.

Talk to how, how do you, how
do you foster that in kids?

I, I'll go back to you, Catherine,
and then I want to come back to

you as, as well, Nicole, on this.

So the autonomy part?

Yes.

Let's talk about the connectedness part.

Catherine Ward: Well, I think
far autonomy there, you can gain

greater autonomy by the more.

You learn, the more skills
you have then give you more

independence for other things.

And so as the kids come in we of course
train them on the, the routines of what

we have to do for caring for the animals.

So in our outdoor school, it's a five
hour school and the first two to two

and a half hours is spent outside.

When they arrive.

We both, the early childhood, Nicole,
what Nicole's over and the elementary,

they're given, you know, an hour or
so of time to just roam the farm,

go play, connect with their friends.

This is at the start

Rupert Isaacson: of the school day.

Catherine Ward: This is at
the start of the school day.

Right.

The

Rupert Isaacson: sort of
zero hour, if you like.

Catherine Ward: Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's a rival and it's time
for them to transition from

being home to now being here.

Mm-hmm.

And, and they're excited.

I mean, they're social creatures, so of
course they want to see their friends.

And so we allow that.

And I.

We know from experience and from also
our, our, our both of our backgrounds

and our trainings both formally with,
with college and through movement

method and so forth, that kids, kids'
brains just need time to, to adjust.

So we give them that time,
their freedom in the morning,

and then we kind of regroup.

And at the beginning of the school
year, and then as the the months go

on, we're teaching them the skills
of how to care for the animals.

They're given farm jobs.

Each child is given a farm job.

When they reach up to elementary
age, they're put together as teams.

And so now as a team, they
have to do a farm job.

And it might be actually scooping
poop, scooping the horse poop,

putting it in the compost pile.

And then we have another compost
pile where they have to dig it and

fill up manure bags because we sell
manure to the community to make

money back to help pay for the food.

With the, I'll let Nicole speak
about her early childhood kids.

I didn't, I I don't wanna
step on your toes, Nicole.

The, there is a lot of poop talk
because we have so many animals

and there's a lot of poop.

Yeah.

And, and, but with that, they
learn how to observe animals.

Poop lets them know immediately
if an animal is sick.

And, and so then we're able
to tend to the animals.

The the skills of, of how to administer
medications, how to, how to muck stalls,

how to just all the things that go
surrounding taking care of the animals.

But then we also give them
skills on orienteering.

With compasses.

We let 'em we let 'em use tools, we let
them dig holes, we let them be dirty.

And then within our, oh, and we Nature
Journal, we encourage them to do nature

journaling, and then whatever subject
matter we're learning, we try to

encourage them to go find more things out.

Like if we're talking about the
chickens, well then they'll do some

observations with chickens or go
and just hang out in the chicken

pen and have some interactions.

So there's all of that gets connected.

And then as their skills grow,
well then they, they actually

gain more independence.

So by the time we get to later
in the school year, well,

they have more independence to
go do projects on their own.

And Nicole, you'll have to remind me,
there's someone that has said that

I may mess up the quote, but where
you allow children to do dangerous

things carefully, is that it?

Nicole Jones: Danger, allow
children to do dangerous things.

I don't, no.

Catherine Ward: Carefully ca

Nicole Jones: basically, it's,
it's if they're doing it safely.

Yeah.

Like if they're doing it
with enough caution, let them

try, let them take the risk.

Yeah.

Is the.

Catherine Ward: That's one of
the things that, that we got.

I think also as, I think it's Richard
Lu, it's either Richard Lu or Peter Gray.

My personality and Nicole's
personality is very hands off.

We want kids to just
explore and make mistakes.

And what we've tried to do here at
One Acre Farm is within the, the

four walls of the privacy fence that
we've provided a safe environment

that it can be a yes environment,
which is what we learned from you.

We did, you know, I
need to kind of go back.

There was so much that we've learned from
you and with you that, that I'd like to

share with your listeners how we met.

And so my daughter Nicole had
gone into education and and

with into special education and
she wanted to go listen to Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And I said, oh my gosh, I wanna go, I know
of her because of her agricultural stuff.

So we go to this place here in
Houston to go listen to Temple.

And it's much like when you go to a
music concert, you're, you're going

to hear the headlining musician or
the headlining band, but then you have

the little opening act beforehand.

So you were the opening act and you walk
out on the stage and you're, you looked

like you had just walked off the ranch.

You had your jeans.

Rupert Isaacson: I probably
had, yeah, you probably had,

Catherine Ward: yeah,
you've got your long hair.

I mean your, your signature
look that you have.

And I turned, and I, I looked at my
daughter and I kind of rolled my eyes.

Honestly, you hadn't even
opened your mouth yet.

And I rolled my eyes.

I think you were

Rupert Isaacson: the first person
to have had that reflecting to me.

Catherine Ward: And I looked at her,
I said, oh my gosh, we have to listen

to this guy before Temple comes on.

And she's like, it'll be okay, mama.

He probably won't talk that long.

Rupert Isaacson: So, didn't
know me that well yet.

Yeah,

Catherine Ward: yeah.

So, but then your mouth opened, you
started speaking, you started sharing

your story of Rowan, you started sharing.

The things that you did to help him
and how Movement Method and Horse Boy

were all developed and the whole time,
Nicole and I are both elbowing each

other because everything that came
outta your mouth was exactly how we

homeschooled and how they were raised.

And I just kept having, it was almost
like some people when they talk about

going to church and that God is talking
to them, that there's that light shining.

So I did, I felt like, I think

Rupert Isaacson: anyone's made
that comparison to me before,

Catherine Ward: but I did and
I felt like, oh my gosh, this

guy is speaking right to me.

And now I knew that, 'cause I, I
had spent so many years feeling

alone 'cause there was nobody else
around me homeschooling like this.

And, and we were just kind of the
oddballs in the homeschooling community.

So now fast forward, she's an
adult, we're listening to you.

And now I didn't want
you to stop speaking.

I wanted to keep hearing you.

And of course we were very
grateful to, to hear Dr.

Temple also.

But afterwards we made a beeline
to go meet you, buy a book, and

then she and I signed up to come to
training at your place with them.

I think the ranch that summer, it
was like just a couple months later.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And and it was just so, edifying to now
find that, that what we had been doing

all along had a name or it had, it had
science behind it because you obviously

have done all the science research for it.

So it was a very, it was
a very comfortable place.

It was, it was like, this is the very
next step that our life needs to take.

And at the end of, and I've heard you
do this 'cause I've seen you speak

many times, and when you encourage
people to use their life and what they

have to include people with autism
into their life, you made it very

clear that, that you may think you're
gonna be imparting something to them.

But what in fact actually happens is
that you receive so much more from that

person with autism that they give back to
you and that they are the dream givers.

And, and that's exactly what happened.

So I came back from training and
everything else and we were like, this

is the next step for one acre farm.

So from 1999 to 2016, we had been
doing all these classes and then it

was like, no, this is the next step.

We are going to become inclusive
with all of our activities and we're

gonna start private autism sessions.

And, and we have never looked
back from that decision.

Ever, ever.

So thank you Rupert for that.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
it's my great pleasure.

I mean you, where are we
talking about connectivity?

Connection, connectedness I think.

A a lot of us started in this place,
and I'm sure most listeners who

are equine assisted practitioners
started in this place or might still

be in this place of loneliness.

When you tread a bit of a
pioneering path, it's lonely.

And when you are a special needs
parent with a, with a nonverbal kid,

you're, it's lonely because you're,
you're not really talking and the,

there, there's a lot of loneliness.

And so for, for me, I know the
great gift, one of the many great

gifts of doing this work has been
the connectedness of community with

people like you all and like with
the people who are listening to this.

So to realize, oh my gosh, we
actually are all one tribe.

We actually are all one community.

It's just that we're a little bit
spread out geographically from

each other, but we have community.

We're out there and listening to you
between the lines, talking about the,

this sort of zero hour where the kids
come in and get to socialize before move

and socialize and explore together before
they have to sit down and listen to old

boring adult, you know, saying, okay,
now let's look at the DNA of chickens.

Interesting as that is, they are the
fact that they're allowed to have

their time to not just transition
into the school day, but also.

To explore their own
connection and community.

And then you begin to
organize them in teams.

This is actually quite groundbreaking
because you, you know, yes.

You, you hear about
project based education.

It's coming in more and more in
the mainstream, but it's, you know,

we all know that unless you have
a, a, a, a teacher that really

has that personality, it's likely
to be a little bit lip service.

You know, you guys really do it.

Can you, Nicole, talk, talk
to me about co connectedness

and how do you encourage kids?

Because you, you're encouraging to
be independent minded, but you also

need to encourage them to learn
how to seek out information, right?

Who to ask, who to research, how to
just 'cause somebody says something

doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

Dah dah, dah.

You know, how do you approach all that?

Nicole Jones: Well, I think
we have a couple of really

good things working for us.

One being we have the multi age range.

So my class is ages four to seven.

Catherine's class is ages seven to 10.

That comes back being based in the
Montessori practices of having a three

year age range and the importance in that.

And so we already, now we
do have a small class size.

The early childhood class goes up
to about 13 and then elementary

fluctuates anywhere from 13 to 16.

Mm-hmm.

Roundabout per day.

Now that we will have more students than
that during the week, because some come

partial week and some come the full week.

But in a given day it's
13 to 16 kids per class.

So in that 13 kids, we've got a third are
the oldest, or a third are the middle.

And a third are the youngest
typically is how it would go.

So whenever we start a school year,
we're not getting this influx of.

Brand new children.

A, a class of brand new children.

It's 60% of the kids are still
retained from the following

year or from the previous year.

And the new kids coming on
are learning from the kids who

are already having New Year.

Ah, so

Rupert Isaacson: there's
mental, there's age to age.

Yes.

Absolute peer mentorship within the Yeah.

Got it.

Nicole Jones: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

developed in conjunction with Dr.

Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Nicole Jones: So, you know.

Five and six year olds are teaching three
and four year olds how to how to observe

body animals operate heavy equipment.

No, I'm kidding.

Yeah.

No, no, not yet.

No, not yet.

You know how to feed the animals?

Well, you can't pull that in the garden.

That's an herb.

We, we don't pull that one,
but you can pull this weed

and go give it to the goats.

So all of those things that.

While us as teachers could interject more,
not, we don't want to, we would have to

be doing that if we didn't have that kind
of peer modeling and mentorship going on.

And it's not only good for the, the
younger kids who get that peer-to-peer

learning, but it's so beneficial.

For the oldest kids in the classroom that
then are building those leadership skills.

And we start to see, especially
that third year and this is true

of Montessori classrooms as well.

We see those kids in that third year start
to really emerge as leaders because, you

know, they've been through learning from
other kids, they've learned from us.

That second year is a lot
more experimental in what they

do and the boundaries they
push and that sort of thing.

And that third year we get like
these really great leaders that know

how everything works on the farm.

They're, they're like the cool kids
because they know where all the cool

spots are and well, I know where to find
this plant and I know where to get this.

And so all these younger kids come
to them and they, and they get to

pass that on to the other kids.

So we all already, with just the multi
ages, get that sense of community

building from kids just asking each other
questions and kids wanting to, to help.

And we do have a very good retention rate.

We don't lose very many students.

Most of them tend to stay with us.

Typically we will where we lose
students the most is that kindergartner,

first grade year, the families that
come to us that they're like, I

just want something for a couple
years before we send them to public.

We do get that and we understand that.

But the majority of our kids tend
to retain and stay with us and, and

then move up to the elementary class.

So we're now in this.

This year was really cool because
this was the first year that we had

kids go all the way through the three
years in the early childhood class

and then graduate up to elementary.

And we've seen this cool change happen
from our pilot year to now where

we've just got these kids that have I
don't wanna say more common sense, but

more farm common sense because they,
they've been with us for these three

years and they know how everything
works and they're, they're able

to go deeper into their questions.

While they may have studied chickens and
horses and pollination and composting in

the early childhood class, well now they
get to dive even deeper in elementary

and go way more into how this all works
at a, at a science based level and not

just, oh, this is, this is a cool lesson.

And so, we already get that
building of community just through

the information sharing and the
way they structure their day.

Our class tends to get really
connected really quickly.

It's, it's a different class in
August at the start of the school

year than it is in December.

Usually around November, December,
we've seen the friendships deepen a lot.

They've.

They ha the kids have learned how
the schedule of the day works, what,

you know, how much freedom they have.

Because a lot of times the, those
new kids that come in, they have

not spent a lot of time outdoors.

Most half of our kids have
never even had pets of any kind.

I mean, not even a fish that, so
a, a big chunk of our kids come

and this is the first time they've
ever been around animals at all.

So we do a lot of working with read,
observing and reading body language

of animals, the sounds they make.

And a lot of the older kids will help
the younger ones learn that as well.

And so anyway, by the time we get
to November, December, our class

has really normalized and, and
we're not having to step in as much.

We are really able to take a step
back a lot and just watch the

children spend their time on the
farm and get into their projects and

observe an anthill for 20 minutes.

Go birdwatching.

I mean, we have birds that build
nests right next to the classroom,

and then we get to hear the
owls in the woods behind us.

So they all go off and do their things
and they play tag and do their games.

But there's also so much immersive nature
involved in it that the children that

are interested in similar things tend
to pair up and, and do things together.

And so the, the friendships
go grow really quick.

And by November, December, we've got a
really, really solid and connected class.

Catherine Ward: To bounce off of
something that she said about some of

the kids that we lose that go to public
school at kindergarten or first grade.

They will come because our school
are we actually go year round.

So we do a regular 10 month from August
to May, but then we have a summer session.

And so those kids have all come
back every summer to do their

two months of summer farm school.

In between one of the, the students
I don't remember if it was our pilot

year or our second year, Nicole, but
we had a, a mom come to us in tears.

So this was during our interview process
of her wanting to enroll her child and

she was crying because her child had
already been kicked out of three other

preschools kicked out of preschool, and I.

And

Rupert Isaacson: for what?

Catherine Ward: For moving,
moving around and not napping, not

sitting down, that sort of thing.

And so being a kid basically.

Yeah.

Being, yeah.

Yeah.

Just being a kid.

And so it didn't, now, while Nicole
and I, we didn't show this to her, but

we're we're shocked at the fact that
a preschool would even kick a kid out.

That was our shock.

Our shock wasn't about,
about the behavior.

And, and so she's like, you're,
so, you're gonna take him?

And we're like, yeah, sure.

You're not afraid.

No, we're not afraid.

No.

And do you know that, that we never,
not once had any problems with him.

He needed that movement
and all of that stuff.

And so I think there are
some kids that can conform.

I don't think they perform at their top
level, but there are also gonna be those

kids that just cannot conform to an
institution, institutionalized classroom.

And and so he then they did send him on to
public school after he finished with us.

And but he comes back every, every
summer and, and, and you don't

Nicole Jones: have to tell him how to
feed the goats and the, he remembers Yeah.

From the year before.

And so it has stuck with him.

So it's, it's been nice to be able
to see those kids come back and see

how, how, how much that this place has
meant to them and how it stuck with

them even three, four years later.

Yep.

So that's a unique thing that I don't
know of any other school that does

that take, because even Montessori
schools won't take kids during the

summer that have been previous students.

So it's kind of a unique
thing we get to experience.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

You guys have gluttons for punishment
'cause you get, you get no holiday no

Catherine Ward: breaks tough.

No.

No.

None.

And I think too for like, say for
that child, 'cause we have other kids

that have gone on to public school.

Actually we had one that went on to public
school and then they took 'em out and

brought them back to farm school because
they were not performing well at all.

And the kid just really wanted
to be back at farm school.

But like with the ones that do, on
the ones that do go on, I think the

amount of time that they've been
given to become independent and

autonomous and the confidence that
they get from learning the skills,

and I think they also learn patience.

They, there are a lot of things that,
that just stroke their, their personality,

that they're, they are, they now
have the skills to conform to those

demands of an institutional classroom.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what's
interesting, what it sounds like

what you're describing is, is emo the
teaching of emotional intelligence.

Catherine Ward: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And you
know, we all know Yeah.

Academics are one thing.

And we'll get into the academics you, you
deliver and how you deliver them next.

But we, listening to you talk makes
me think of a, a, a, a really a.

Great movement method teacher that we
know in Colorado, Cade, who teaches at

Evans Elementary in Colorado Springs.

And he says that after about is,
and this is very much within the,

you know, the regular system, but of
course he's taking the same approach.

He says that by the time the kids are
about 10 weeks in, their brains have

developed to such a degree through the
movement and the project based thing and

the mutual support that they go from the
standard sort of them and us teacher, you

know, children versus the teacher thing.

'cause that's obviously what they've,
you know, come in with to being able to

go off and learn independently in small
groups in other parts of the school.

And he says, you know, I send out my
little spies, you know, to see what are

they actually doing, you know, and yes,
they are that, it's like he says the,

the, the, the brain development that you
have a different child after 10 weeks,

the, the, the, the, the neuroplasticity
has really kicked in and we, we see

this time and again, but he's not
able to work, you know, as as you are.

Because you know, your campus
is your own and you have the

animals and, and so forth.

Talk to me about.

The academics that you deliver.

So if I was a, if I was a, a parent, say,
well, this all sounds great guys, but you

know, I want my kid to go on and get their
SATs, or if it was in English England, it

would be their GCSEs or whatever, and I
want 'em to get onto college and so on.

Can you really tell me that this
way you're going to deliver the

national curriculum this way?

I imagine that you're gonna say, well,
yeah, sure, but tell me the nuts and

bolts of, of how so, so, Nicole, I,
I'll throw that one to you first.

I'm the skeptical parent.

Well, this all sounds great,
but it sounds also a bit hippie.

Okay.

Hippies actually rule the world, but hey
how can you reassure me that you are going

to equip my child academically in the same
way as if they were in the public school?

Nicole Jones: Yeah.

Well usually when I start out, parents
typically will meet me at a torque.

And so we walk them through the
whole the farm, the classroom, go

over the educational philosophy
and go over the curriculum.

And so at some point in there, I
will throw in, I was homeschooled

right here in this community,
right next door to the farm.

Like, so, and I turned out
to be a normal human being.

Normal human being.

I went to college, I graduated
high school with college credits,

you know, so like, it, it, first
of all, you're talking to somebody

who's proof in the pudding, right?

So Right.

You're the proof of concept.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Right.

Nicole Jones: Exactly.

And so here we are just creating this.

For while, while I did
it at a a family level.

Here we are creating this for a
classroom, small class size level.

And so, starting off with that, when
people find out, oh, you were actually

homeschooled and you went okay, it
eases the conversation a little bit.

But then when, when we walk through
the indoor portion of class because

the kids do spend two and a half
hours outside before we even go

in for any kind of academics.

And then even when we go inside, they're
eating first, washing their hands, getting

some movement out a little bit more before
we even sit into any kind of a lesson.

And so our classroom, the early childhood
classroom is set up as you would

see a typical Montessori classroom.

So we have fine motor work,
practical life, all the things to

help develop the hand for writing.

We've got sensorial work, which
is working with a lot of pieces,

discrimination objects and things
like that, math language and science.

And our science and geography changes
monthly depending on what we're

studying and what the seasons bring us.

So while we advertise, we are
supplemental curriculum to what you're

doing at home, we really do teach
a full curriculum in that two and

a half hours that they're indoors.

And I've had classes as with as many
as 40 kids, and in that two and a half

hours, I get more done with those 13
kids than I ever got done in eight

hours, even in a Montessori setting.

And so, and our parents do get.

A pretty comprehensive progress report
twice a year of things that they're doing.

And so they can look at those things
and match it to, in Texas we have the

teaks, that's the, our Texas educational
code of what they're learning as far

as math and reading and things goes.

But we can teach anything from early
numeracy and learning letter sounds

to, you know, writing sentences and
writing stories to long division.

And so, because we also have the
flexibility to be able to make curriculum

as we need it you know, I've had some
years, I've had a 6-year-old that

was at like a fourth grade reading
level, and so I just made things that

she needed and got and for, you know,
what she was on level for and we're

able to adapt what the kids need.

And so because it's a Montessori classroom
that's already set up for your age range

of about three years of an age range while
it may look like how can you fit three

years of curriculum in here, the materials
that we're using and the curriculum that

we create is so flexible in what we can
do with them, that we can be using this

for, you know, a 4-year-old and then
also be using this for a 7-year-old

in long division and multiplication.

So, it's, it's very, the materials are
very comprehensive in what they're,

we're able to, to offer to them.

So usually once we go through the
curriculum areas and, and that

sort of thing that we don't have
too many skeptics after that.

But, but typically and, and it, you know,
we do have those people where it just

doesn't fit with them and that's fine.

We don't want them to come if, if,
if that's not what they're about.

It's, but typically the people that
seek us out are wanting the small

class size, the movement, the outdoors,
the animals that typically is what,

what the families that come to us.

That's one of the things
that they're wanting.

And the, the families that get the
most out of this are the ones that have

academics lower on their, on their list.

Because as we all know, everything
that they do outdoors as far as the

autonomy, going back to that, that
creates so much executive functioning

skills that, okay, if you've had two
hours outside to be autonomous in what

you wanna do with your day, well then
when you get this big huge math problem,

you now have the executive functioning
skills to go through this math problem

that might take you 20, 30 minutes.

Whereas if I was leading you through
your day and you don't know, I

don't know how to get this math
problem done, I need a teacher to

sit here and tell me step by step.

So we try and it's a lot of educating
parents because a lot of them already

have a feeling of, okay, I, I feel like
this is right, but I don't know why.

Like I, you know, I don't
know how to justify it.

And so once we're able to.

To go through the science of it
and, and show proof of concept.

We really get a lot of people
that just, they take a breath,

okay, this, this is gonna be fine.

And, and then the ones that, that
don't, aren't attracted to those

kinds of things, we, we send 'em off.

We, we don't want, we don't
want them in our program.

Rupert Isaacson: Give,
gimme a concrete example.

Let's say I'm a kid and I, I'm
having trouble with long division.

How would you set up my day?

Like I'm sure you're,
you're strategizing right?

Saying, okay, Rupert's got trouble
with long division, so we're going to

start his day like this, and then we're
gonna look at this thing with animals.

We're gonna look at this thing.

We the horse, we're gonna look
at this thing with the plants.

And then once I am inside and I've gone
through that and now I'm faced with the

long division exercise, how do you present
it to me and how do you help me through?

So can you talk me through
the day from start to finish?

You've got you, you've got your eye on me.

Okay.

Root need to help with the long division.

Off we go.

Yeah.

Nicole Jones: So I wanna make sure if I
know that a kid's been struggling with

something in particular I wanna make
sure that they've gotten the opportunity

to get the movement out in the morning.

We have four different
types of swings on the farm.

So I, you, we try to have, make sure
kids have opportunity for swinging.

I tend to find a lot of the
kids that struggle with.

Reading will tend to be on the swing more.

I don't know if that's a
specific connection, it's just

an observation that I've had.

And so I don't know if it has to do
with those oral skills and things

like that, but I tend to see that.

So we wanna make sure they've
done what they want outside.

They've gotten their movement out.

They've spent lots of
time with the animals.

Usually that will really help if, if
they can go spend more time with the

goats or the chickens or the rabbits.

It tends to calm the, the nervous
system down before we go indoors.

So I want to hopefully see them get
some animal time as well, and not just

the running and, and energetic stuff.

So that tends to help.

And then by the time we go indoors, we
don't structure a kid's day and that okay,

you have to start and we're immediately
gonna do this math problem that you hate.

Once kids in the early childhood
class reach about six years old, they

actually get a work plan for the week.

And so it's, here's your things that
you have to accomplish this week.

You can pick Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday, and you get to

structure your week as you see fit.

Now that doesn't mean that because
you have handwriting and reading this

book with me and long division and
multiplication, that you have to do that

all first we allow for some art time or
something else before we get to that.

So it's more on the teachers to go,
okay, let me observe and, and kind of

help push them and guide them to get
it done when we know it's about time.

But we're still making sure that
they have time for that autonomy

and get those things done.

So when it comes to that long division
problem, maybe they didn't wanna do it on

Monday, maybe it's coming up on Wednesday.

So I know on Wednesday I need to make
sure that around 1130 we're gonna get

started with that long division problem.

We, one of the things that's
unique about Montessori materials,

especially in the math curriculum,
is everything is concrete.

Nothing is done on paper first.

Everything is done with very
physical materials first before

you ever get to anything on paper.

And that's also something we
have to explain is that you're

not to parents, you're not going
to see a lot of work come home.

And while that made to you look like,
oh my gosh, my kid didn't do anything

academic because it didn't come home
on paper, it's because we're using the

physical materials in school and they
might not be at the point where they're

writing it down on paper yet, because
that's a little bit too abstract.

Now, eventually we get to that,
but we're working with place value.

So the unit bead, the 10 bar, the a
hundred square, the thousand cubes.

So they're understanding quantities
and place values before we get to

those really hard problems on paper.

So they start doing addition, subtraction,
multiplication, division with the

quantities before it ever gets onto paper.

So then by the time they're really
familiar with that, well then we

can actually start doing it on.

Paper with the materials, because by
then they're already starting to get it.

And these kids will already start to,
to visualize the math in their head.

And it's when they get about to the
point where they're no longer using

the materials that they're just telling
you, oh, I know the answer is 2,192.

Well then, okay, we're
ready for paper now.

We can, we can get rid
of that and go to paper.

And so a lot of it is the, the
preparatory work for the day, just

making sure they've had their outlet
for sensory and movement needs.

And then they also have autonomy
of when they do those really hard

things that they may not like.

Now it's, it's not that I say, okay, well
you get to do whatever you want this week.

You do have to get these certain things
done because we do need to ensure you

are getting reading done, you are getting
your math done, but there's avenues in

which way you can choose to get that done.

So maybe we're not reading a book,
maybe we're matching parts of a story.

So we, you know, we have a book with
sentences and they have to match pictures

to the correct page or we're matching
pictures towards, so there's different,

different reading aspects we can do.

We've also got where they have
to read an activity and so then

it's like, go jump on a rug.

So then they go jump on a rug.

Okay, go find a cup.

And so then we've got movement
involved in the reading and they're

moving around the classroom,
but they're still doing reading.

So those are the kinds of
things that we kind of.

Add into the class to, to make it work.

I don't know if that answers

Rupert Isaacson: No,
it totally makes sense.

Okay.

And, and I, I think it's really useful to
have this broken down for people because,

you know, you know, and I know we've
gone through this period, this process

of having to learn to become educators.

I did it kicking and screaming.

I didn't want to be,
I just kind of had to.

And then how to break these things
down, as you say, you know, doing

with physical things and then moving
from physical things with moving.

'cause when you move, when you use
physical things, you are still moving.

Right.

And then to the abstract.

And then as you say, making
sure that the, the sensory and

physical needs are met first.

And as you know, with movement method,
we sort of sprinkle the concept

into the movement long before we
ask a kid to tackle an exercise.

If you, if you like, and I, I know with
Montessori it's very similar, you know,

Catherine, when you, when you are now
dealing with the elementary kids and

it's getting a little bit more academic
based again, how, and, and this kid

might well, will, is gonna have to,
at this stage, transition back into

something more mainstream by the time
they hit middle school or high school.

So you, you have that presumably in
your mind, okay, I have to prepare

these kids to be able to thrive.

I.

When they don't have the luxury
of one acre farm what are your

strategies for making sure that
that transition happens at least

academically, relatively seamlessly?

Catherine Ward: I would first say
that most, most of our elementary

kids are obviously because of their
age, they're being homeschooled.

Mm-hmm.

Most of them continue to be homeschooled
even after they're done with

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

After they out.

So you, you are like a
homeschooling backup.

You like.

Yes.

They would consider sending them to
home one acre farm even though it's

a school as part of homeschooling,
even though it is actually Yes.

Sort of isn't really homeschooling,
but Okay, I see what in those parents'

mind, it comes under that banner.

Catherine Ward: Yes.

Well, and, and Nicole said the, the
word earlier that we're supplemental,

so we don't advertise and say
we are a full curriculum school.

Right.

We are supplemental education.

Right.

So, now while the early childhood
that Nicole is over is a

full four day program mm-hmm.

Some kids only go two days.

The elementary is not
offered all four days.

For right now, we've chosen
just two days out of the week.

Mainly because our philosophy of
thinking is that, well, if you're, if

you have a child at home, age seven
to 10, you've chosen to homeschool.

So the bulk of their academics
are gonna be taught at home.

And so we're supplemental.

So they come to us for
two days out of the week.

Now that doesn't mean that
we don't focus on academics.

We certainly do interconnect them, but
we're not providing a full math curriculum

or a full language arts curriculum.

So our, our elementary is
more focused on the sciences.

Of, of all of the
animals, animal husbandry.

But within the studying of those
animals and gardening we, we bring

in reading because they then have
to read books, do book reports.

We bring in geography and history because
we study the migration of animals, whether

it was natural or through explorers.

And, but through that, my main
focus, because they think it's fun

at this point, a book report is not
something they roll their eyes at.

They're excited to write
something about chickens.

And we take it much like Nicole
describes taking things in steps.

We start off teaching
them observation skills.

When they're outside,
we want them to observe.

And then with nature journaling,
what are, what are you observing?

Write that down.

What are some?

And if they're not writers yet, then,
then we'll, we'll write for them as they

dictate what are, what are the adjectives?

What are we, we want them to become more
creative in their writing as they observe.

So then when they come inside
then they can take those skills.

And, and I really try to give them
observation skills of what are they

observing in the books and how to
express yourself in writing, how to

write complete thoughts within sentences.

And.

And so they, they come to that.

So my, while my focus is studying
about the animals, I'm not trying

to get them a vet degree, but it
is a means to an end, I guess.

So we use the animals and their
interest in all of that to

get those other subjects in.

And so hopefully when they're done, if
they leave us at age 10, then they've,

they've got those writing skills and
those research skills and those things

that they need as a foundation to
transition into middle school, whether

it's institutionalized or, or at home.

And and so right now, the way we
have the curriculum set up, the

parents don't come in expecting that
they're going to be getting algebra

or, or pre-algebra or any of that.

They're very accepting of the
curriculum that, that we provide.

Rupert Isaacson: Would you
rise to the challenge of

doing algebra and pre-algebra?

Catherine Ward: I, I would, you and
I have had these conversations, I

would I would, I would have to take a
refresher course myself a little bit.

But one thing I will say that we've added
this year that has, we're, 'cause every

year we, we tend to kick it up a notch.

We add more and we make the program
a lot a lot more flourishing.

And so this year, while it doesn't
have to do with algebra, we are

doing a presentation project.

So the kids, in fact, we're
on spring break right now.

They come back next week and
they're gonna spend about five weeks

in teams with a subject matter.

And then we're gonna have a presentation
night where all the families at the

home of the farm school are invited
in and they're gonna have these

display boards and be able to give
speeches and talk about their display

and the things that they've learned.

And so that's something we've never
done in the elementary program before.

So we're adding that this year.

And we have discussed, I
can tell you that, that.

Probably half of our parents
in the elementary ask, when

are you gonna offer a four day?

Because they would send their
child here for the whole four days.

We, Nicole and I just have not
made it to that decision level yet.

There's a lot of working parts.

I'm sure that's a

Rupert Isaacson: staffing issue too.

Yeah, it's,

Catherine Ward: Very much so because the,
the other two days that I'm not teaching,

well, that's when I'm on the tractor doing
tractor work or, or fence repairs or, so

if I now then had to teach four days when,
and I'm still doing, and then the autism

Nicole Jones: sessions as well, right?

Catherine Ward: Yeah.

So when school is over at,
in the afternoon, I'm doing

private autism sessions.

So unless you can find a, a
doctor to clone a me Yeah.

So, so it's a logistical staffing
issue to not expand that more.

But yes, we do have visions of expanding
and possibly expanding curriculum.

We're just not, we're just not there yet.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, you'll be pleased
to know, i'm on it as well because those

people that know movement method, now math
and science curriculums know that I don't

write those because I'm not qualified to.

So I, you know, I, I could figure
out the very early basic stuff with

homeschooling, but as you guys know
we turned to an amazing man called Dr.

Alfred Ziegler who was a he's retired
from there now, but he was a, a

physics professor at the University
of Ossner Brook, which is a very

prestigious university in Germany.

And he came up with all our higher math
and science movement method curriculum.

And so I've just been making
a little note to myself here.

I go back to Dr.

Alfie for our kinetic al
algebra stuff, please.

So I'm gonna ask him for those and I'll,
I'll probably do that in the next week

or two, and then I'll then circulate
that to you all to use as you wish.

That'd be great.

Thank you.

'Cause yeah, it's, it's hard to come
up with these things by oneself.

And I think, I think that's, that's one
of the difficulties about homeschooling

when I'm advising people is say, you
know, don't think of homeschooling as you

and your kids sitting at a table, both
driving each other, nuts, both wanting

to kill each other and yourselves.

No, no, no, no, no.

You've gotta, you've gotta reach
out for mentorship yourself.

Get the curriculum from people that know
how to do the curriculum and build a

team, you know, whatever that looks like.

So that it's not just about maybe
that person can teach that thing,

that subject better, but also
it's the socialization thing.

You know, we need more than
one personality involved.

We need, you know, and, and then
as you say, where, where are those

collective homeschool groups so
that they can have the socialization

with the other kids as well.

And you guys, of course, have done
something rather remarkable, which is

to corral that into a one dedicated
physical location rather than having

to do, you know, a homeschool group,
you know, session here, homeschool

session over there in that household,
that household, that household.

Not that there's anything wrong with that,
but it's just logistically easier for

families, I think, you know, to, and, and,
and nice also for a kid to have a campus.

So you, you mentioned the staffing issues.

It, it, how many people are there
working now currently, and I'm sure you

are under pressure to expand and I'm,
I'm sure you're also under pressure

to move into middle high school.

Catherine Ward: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: How, what,
what are your plans for that?

Catherine Ward: We certainly
talk about it a lot.

I I don't, so your
listeners may not know this.

You said something earlier about
doing with what you have and, and I

am a self-proclaimed, I am the queen
of, I make do with what I've got.

When, when my girls wanted to show
animals for four H and we didn't have

a pickup truck, we had a family van,
I have shoved pigs and goats in the

back of the family van because that's
what's my, what my girls wanted to do.

So that's, that has been a
constant in my personality.

And so, with one acre farm, we
truly are one acre and I have fit

into that one acre as much as we
can over the last 25 years or so.

And then when Nicole and I when we had
talked about opening a school, every

time that I would approach the state
about it, they wouldn't approve it.

That, oddly enough they, one of the
reasons they didn't wanna approve a

school is because they didn't wanna
have a mix of animals and kids.

And so, how we were eventually
able to start the farm school.

It's actually considered another
category of learning pod is

that when COVID happened and all
the schools closed, pretty much

everybody became a homeschooler.

And so the state of Texas then
redefined the definition of school

and they came up with learning pod.

And so the very people that had
declined me, contacted me and

pretty much said, guess what?

We have this place, this, this category
of an umbrella that you can exist.

So that's how we then said, guess what?

We're gonna go ahead and open up.

As far as as growth and expansion
when we, when we started, it was

gonna be outdoors only the whole time,
but then we quickly realized there

needed to be some, some type of indoor
portion because, and that's a tall

Rupert Isaacson: order in the Houston
climate where it gets Oh, it is.

Well, and yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Catherine Ward: Not just for the
comfort of the students and the

teachers, but also resources.

Yeah.

I have had so many books ruin.

In my outdoor classroom, even though
I have a bookshelf because of the

humidity and they just mold and so forth.

Yeah.

So I'm very, very fortunate in
the structure of my home that it

has very two large living rooms.

And so one living room at the back of
the house is attached to the kitchen.

Kitchen.

It's one huge space.

And again, when we started the farm
school, it was only the early childhood.

We had not started the elementary yet.

So, we, I took out all of my living room
furniture that was no longer a living

room, and we created a classroom in there.

So that's where Nicole's
early childhood is.

And there's just bookshelves and
bookshelves and all of their work trays

and the, the rugs and, and so we've got a
small Montessori inspired classroom there.

And and so then I, I was again,
the queen of make do, so we made

do, it's no longer a personal space
that's now an indoor classroom.

We thought parents would, now some
parents come in thinking this is

a little weird, but then other
parents embrace it and love it.

And I'm so encouraged because my, my
mother was a teacher at some point.

My grandmother was a teacher and
my great-grandmother was a teacher.

And I remember my grandmother opened up.

Kindergarten in half of her house.

So I just kind of felt like this
is all natural and normal to me

to put a classroom in your house.

Then when we added the elementary, we did
have it strictly outdoors the whole time,

the first year, and then that's when a
lot of our resources were just ruining

in the, I put 'em in Ziploc bags, I'd do
whatever I could to protect them, but the

humidity was just awful on the resources.

So then I have another humongous
living room that Nicole

and I said, you know what?

Well, what if we just kind
of divided that room in half?

So half of it still has my TV and my
sofa so that I can, you know, enjoy

watching something if I want to.

And then the other half is
now bookshelves and classroom.

I have something very unique
that my grandfather and my

father built a huge 12 foot.

Oak table as when I was a
child, I still have that table.

So that is the table in the, the
classroom, but it's also our family

table where we gather on Sundays.

So that room has become very dual purpose
from u using, using it as a classroom and

then using it for my own personal space.

Our goal right now and in our fundraising
is to try to raise money so that we can

actually build a two room schoolhouse
on the farm property and remove it from

the home and, and onto into a classroom.

So there's that expansion.

Well, you

Rupert Isaacson: know
what happened with that?

You'll just end up with four classrooms,
just two ones in the house will

stay, and then you'll just have two
extra ones in the new structure.

Yeah,

Nicole Jones: I know.

Then it goes back to a
staffing problem after

Catherine Ward: Right.

Then the staff.

Yeah.

Staffing.

So Nicole is the lead teacher.

I'm the lead teacher, and then
she and I both have assistants

and the demographic of the class.

Out of my 16 students four
to five are neurodivergent.

We have a couple of them that do need
shadows because of communication.

So while they are not staff, my
staff, they are two other adults

that are there, but their attention
is supposed to be specifically for

those, for those nonverbal kids there.

And then so it's, it's really just
two teachers and two assistants.

It can be, it can be hard, like when
we've lost teachers before, like we

had one that that ended up moving
and I think Nicole, what was it?

We went through like six
applicants or something.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

I mean, it's, it's a set of
skills that not everyone can.

Catherine Ward: Yeah.

And, and I would say each one of
them like came for a day and then

they're like, yeah, this isn't for us.

Because it is, you've, you've got
to love kids, love animals, wanna

understand the yes environment.

There are a lot of people that cannot
comprehend and accept the freedom and

the au autonomy that the kids have.

And then you, you gotta
be okay with being dirty.

And so the, the finding a person that
has that perfect storm can be very,

very, very difficult to, to find.

Yeah.

Nicole, you were gonna say something?

Nicole Jones: Yeah, well, I was gonna
say exactly what you said, also, the

being outdoors even, you know, for two
to three hours at a time in our climate,

especially in the summer, it just,
people are like, Nope, I can't do it.

And even though they might be on
board with everything else, that's

something that keeps it away.

So, yeah, I think
unfortunately your climate

Rupert Isaacson: is particularly extreme.

Yeah, yeah,

Nicole Jones: yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: How do you fund it?

So obviously people pay to send their
kids to you but you know, you can only

have a certain number of kids because
you are a certain number of people.

You've got a certain amount of space.

So what outside of the actual
school fees that you charge,

how, how do you fund what you do?

Catherine Ward: The, the school
programs are very fortunate that

they do fund the programs completely.

And then the other programs that we have
during the week or during the month,

like the story time and the autism
sessions and the kids aren't in play.

Those programs also funnel money into it.

So as far as, you know, paying, paying
the feed bill and paying salaries and

that kind of stuff is all covered there.

What becomes a challenge is the huge
chunks of money that we need for

like a new classroom or something.

Before we had the elementary, I was
a lot more connected and going to all

of the Chamber of Commerce meetings.

And in the evenings I would go and speak
to different community groups and stuff.

But now that the administrative duties
and the teaching duties and everything

else, I, my time is just so stretched.

I have now been so disconnected from being
able to be out there presenting it to,

to the, to the community for those kinds
of donations and, so while we, we do fund

our projects, like we ha a hurricane came
through and blew down all of our fencing.

And so we've been having
to rebuild fencing.

We've been able to take
care of that stuff.

But as far as growth for taking on another
staff member or taking on an assistant

for me, 'cause we have a waiting list
for, for families of children with

autism and we just can't help everybody.

And if I could be, if I could know that
I had the funding to pay somebody, then I

could go ahead and train someone to be an
assistant and take on more clients there.

And then also the funding
for the classroom.

And so we have all of that and we
speak it out in positive vibes to the

universe and prayers to God and, and
we just keep doing whether, whether,

whether it's gonna happen quickly or not.

We just, like I said, we make do with
what we have and we just keep pushing on

and, and looking to grow as we can do it.

Rupert Isaacson: Well in the
years I've known you I've

never seen you guys not do it.

Yeah.

So, I think you guys are,
you know, absolutely.

Will continue to thrive.

One of the things I've always thought
is what is needed is a ton of little

one acre farm campuses dotted around.

Catherine Ward: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: All
over the world really.

Are you beginning to think about
how to train people to put together.

What you do.

'cause it's, it's very specific.

Like, you know, we go and do
movement method trainings or horse

method trainings, and then we say
to people, here's the framework.

Use it in your context,
the way you want to use it.

But with you, it's, it's, it's even
more it's even more complex because

you're, you're, you're really taking
on the the academic responsibility.

We, we, we supplement, we show people
how to homeschool, we show, we train

schools how to use movement method.

We give them the lesson plans and so on.

But it's really us training
professionals who are already doing it.

You guys are the professionals.

If somebody wanted, that's, maybe
they're sitting in the Netherlands

listening to this or somewhere, places
where space is at a premium, or I mean

any, any given suburban environment
like yours, are you, are you gonna put

together a tra a framework for trainees?

Can people contact you for that?

Catherine Ward: We do, we
are in the works on that.

And, and it's a continuing,
evolving thing as we do it.

And the more we do it, the more we're
like, oh, we need to do this too.

And so Nicole and I you had told
us a long time ago, you just wait.

People are gonna be seeking y'all out.

And I thought, eh, they're not gonna
know anything about one acre farm.

But sure enough, we have people that
seek us out from all over the place.

So Nicole and I are now doing
consulting and some people just

need a, a couple of visits with us.

You know, zoom calls like this
where 'cause there are a lot

of people that wanna do forest
schooling or wild schooling.

I mean, there's all kind of little
buzzwords out there and there are a

lot of people that they will, they
just wanna put a group of people

together and go to a, a, a park and
do some type of learning at a park.

So we have branched out on that.

And our goal is to have a, a one acre
farm or, or, or to have a curriculum

that we can eventually sell to people.

Maybe some videos.

Our consulting, we would love,
I think our, and I'll let

Nicole expand on this too.

I think we would love to somehow
become a connector of, of people

that, that have the, the skills of
teaching, but may not have the land.

And then people that have land
but don't have the skills because

Oh yeah, it's a great idea.

We're, we're, we're just very unique
that we are very fortunate to have.

One acre farm, and we're both
teachers, so we've, we've been

very fortunate we that we had that.

But, but there's, there's gotta
be people out there that say, man,

I've got all this land, I have these
animals, but I don't know how to teach.

But I would love to let somebody come
on my ranch or my small farm and teach.

And then there's gotta be teachers out
there that are like, oh, I wanna do this.

I wanna teach stuff, but I
don't have any land or animals.

So I, I think agree.

Nicole, would you agree
that that's one of the Yeah.

The ways we wanna go, the, the

Nicole Jones: people who reach out
to us are usually either farmers

and like, how do, how do you do
this on an acre with your animals?

I don't really know how to teach.

And so then they want the
curriculum type thing, and then

we've got teachers that reach out.

They're like, oh my gosh,
I could totally teach this.

I love this, but I just
don't have the space.

And so mm-hmm.

It's, we, like she said, we're unique
in that we had both, we, we've got the

farmer background and we're teachers
and we had the acre to work it on.

But yeah, connecting the two, and I
think we're now at a point in time

in America where people are more
willing to do something like that.

I think before COVID this, this
would not have gone over well.

Yeah, I agree.

But the, you know, the, the, the decline
we're seeing in profits that small farmers

are making specifically small farmers.

I'm not talking commercial,
I'm talking small.

50 acre, 10 acre, five acre farms.

To be able to have that income come in
of X amount per month, that, okay, I

lease this one acre portion of my land.

And I get that per month, that's great.

And then the teachers be able to
go, I can leave this know full-time

institutionalized job that I hate
now, and go and create this thing

and do it for less hours, a more
intentional program outdoors.

So I I, and we're seeing that across
Facebook groups and people we talk to.

This is something that people are looking
for all over the country, not just Texas.

It, it's happening all over.

And so have you, have you got

Rupert Isaacson: some, have you got
some projects that you've put together

now where you've, you've, you've
put those people together with land

and teaching skills and seen them.

Not yet.

Nicole Jones: We have we've done some
consultations that two specifically did

go ahead and start their programs and
they've been on, been very successful.

One is a, we did a consult with
someone who is in Idaho, and she

does her Montessori classroom out
of a yurt, and that was really cool.

And then another one, she's specifically
more of homeschool educational classes.

She'll do like a six to eight week
rotation in classes, and that's

gone off really well with her.

And so, yeah, that's been cool to see
those start and that those people just

needed the encouragement to do it.

That, you know, a lot of people,
the people that are ready to jump

on this just need to hear that
they're not crazy and that it's,

yeah, you're on the right track.

People will sign up.

People do want this.

It's, it's okay.

And so I go, going back to the
loneliness aspect, once you.

Can connect with people and
tell 'em you're, you know,

we're all in the same boat.

Like this is a, you know, pioneer
this even though you have nobody

in your area that's doing this.

Just, just do it.

And, and because both these people
already had land, you know, that they

were in a similar situation with us
where they were just able to start it.

But the, the connecting, the, the two
different types of people is something

we'd like to be able to do in the future.

Rupert Isaacson: What about mobile?

One acre farms?

What about being able to, you know,
pack your one acre farm in a trailer

and then take it onto a school campus?

Catherine Ward: Well, I actually did
that, Catherine done that before.

I did that.

I did that for years.

That's exactly what I did.

Before, I mean, I would have a few
classes and workshops at the farm.

But no, I, it was, it
was very lucrative too.

And so I, I built I had a flatbed trailer
and I built this red frame structure

around it to make it look like a barn.

And it just said more
like, so a tiny house

Rupert Isaacson: on the
back of your pickup?

Yeah,

Catherine Ward: exactly.

Exactly.

And I'd put all the animals in there.

Oh, a great idea.

I did.

And so I got paid to, to, I did a
few birthday parties, but that really

wasn't my, that, that's not my gig.

So I, I marketed myself to all of
the preschools and daycares around.

And so I would go and set up for
several hours and they would rotate

all their classes through, and I
gave like a 30 minute demonstration.

And I talked about the
chickens and the rabbits.

And so it wasn't a petting zoo at all.

It was very educational.

And then I got a contract with the
local school district to do it.

And and so I was going to all
of the elementary schools and

it, it was so labor intensive.

It was at least two hours of
prep, loading, loading animals

making sure we had water and food.

And again, because of our heat and
humidity down here, watching and

caring for the animals' health in
these parking lots while I'm doing

this, and then loading them back up,
coming home and unloading it was, I,

I burned out really, really quickly.

I would've, I would've
done it for, I probably, I.

If it weren't for, for what I'm,
I'm, what I'm about to lead into,

I probably would've kept with it.

But my mom, my mother ended up having
a stroke and very debilitating.

And paralyzed.

She couldn't move, she
couldn't talk anymore.

And we were in this, you know,
middle class limbo where we couldn't

afford full-time care to help.

So I became her, her caregiver, right?

And so I ended up having
to shut that down.

I had just had to sell off
about half of my animals.

I didn't wanna get rid of all of
them, but I bring up her stroke

because her, her doctor had explained
to me, he said, you know, don't.

Please work with her every day, help
her learn how to feed herself again,

help her learn how to talk again.

And so he gave this visual of like, if
so I'm here in Texas, so between Houston

and Dallas is the highway called 45.

And he said, if you wanna get from Houston
to Dallas, you would normally take I 45.

But the road is blocked now.

You can't.

So now you've gotta go all these little
country roads might take longer, but

you can still get from Houston to Dallas
and it's gonna, but you're just gonna

have to go down these other paths.

That's what you're doing
with your mother's brain.

This part of her brain is, is
destroyed, but you can retrain

it and create these new paths.

So all of that happened and then we
meet you and we learn the science

behind movement method and what happens
with a child's brain that may have

autism and about forming pathways
and neuroplasticity and all of that.

So all of those life experiences
that I had that brought me then to

meeting you and movement method have
just now fast forwarded to where we

are and, and, and what we're doing.

Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

I wonder if it might be possible, I'm
just thinking obviously, of you guys,

but I'm also thinking about other people
who might be listening who are thinking,

well, you know, I'd like to do something
like this, but I'm already maxed out, you

know, with the, with the program I've got.

And I think that's very
much the experience of.

Pretty much anyone who, who runs any
of these programs unless somebody

comes in and we, you know, with a
big checkbook and says, alright, you

are now able to hire all the staff.

Because then even if you do, then
suddenly you are the administrator

and you are now doing that full-time.

So it's okay, you might expand
your capacity, but in terms of your

own personal time, you, you are as
stretch as you ever were, if not more.

But what I was wondering, listening
to your story about going round,

because we, we used to do this
from our new trails ranch.

We would also put the horses and trailers
and go onto school campuses and so on.

And one of, but we take the other
animals and then we run some lessons.

And I know some of the other horse boy
movement method people have done it too.

I think if I was in your shoes
though, is it possible to

find, to almost outsource that?

Could you find people that you don't
have to pay directly, but you could

train and say, okay, you know, I
will set you up with the clientele.

You could go out to the schools
and say, who, who wants this?

You know, or, or the homeschooling
groups who, who can't come to you and

then you say, all right, you, this
person have gone through a training.

Now your job is to load up the animals, go
that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

This is what you need.

You're gonna need to be under
a big tree because of the, he,

you know, the blah, blah, blah.

You're gonna need this,
you're gonna need that.

You're gonna need the other this.

And then they go off and deliver that.

While you continue, but you don't
have to necessarily pay them directly.

They are a an independent contractor
that gets paid and then they

just give you, you know, a small
percentage of their, that daily fee.

But then perhaps at a certain point
you have 10 of those people going

up and then that becomes, you know,
enough money to fund some more

construction staff members on property.

But it also expands your reach.

Have, you know, could one
do, do it sort of that way?

Catherine Ward: I've never thought
about it, but I think that's

something certainly a put thought to.

Yes.

I think that

Rupert Isaacson: could be done because
there are people out there with a vehicle

and people without, you know, and it
might be that they could just, okay,

they can't put the full farm in there.

They can't do, you know, that very
whimsical thing on the back of a pickup

truck, but they might be able to put
two, two chickens and a dog in the back

of the thing and, and go and deliver
really meaningful curriculum that way.

And that, the reason I think about
chickens is we have a, a, a really

wonderful place here in Germany.

The Green Care farm at up in Munster
and they go out to schools as well

as having schools come to them.

And they got a call to go in
where there'd been a threat of.

Luckily it didn't materialize, but
of a school shooting, which is very,

very rare for this part of the world.

And it was because of complications
between Ukrainian and Russian and

Syrian and Iraqi refugee families.

There's it, it blew up and the kids
were pretty traumatized, and they

took the farm into the school and
they said that the thing that really

got the kids was the chickens.

Somehow the following of the chickens.

The, the organizing of the chickens
that the social stuff that chickens go

through that they aren't, they aren't
always so nice to each other, as you know.

Yeah.

But yet they always kind of
work it out that, that the idea

that there's a tangible product,
there's the egg, you know, there's

the meat, there's the feather.

You can do these things with it.

It's, and at the same time it's, it's
so full of personality and it's such a

simple thing to do a chicken, you know?

Mm-hmm.

A small group of chickens.

So I'm just wondering if I might put
that out there to you and to anyone

else who's listening, you know?

Ha.

Has anyone else been doing that or.

If, if you did decide to do
that, I'd love to hear a report.

Yeah.

Catherine Ward: To my knowledge, I
don't think there was anyone else.

I mean, certainly there were petting
zoos that set up, its petting

zoos, but I don't think there was
anyone that was doing it like, like

we were as far as education, so.

Right.

I know if I put thought to that there
would be an immediate source of clientele

that would, that would want that done.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

Well, maybe you wouldn't
work on that together.

That would not

Catherine Ward: be hard
to organize at all.

Rupert Isaacson: It might even be
the sort of thing that you, you get

like a working student to come in.

Maybe that's somebody who wants to come
and add this to their cv, to their resume,

you know, and they're coming in from
abroad or they're coming in from another

state and they're maybe in between doing
their school and college or between their

BA and their MA or whatever, and they want
to, and you can say to that person, okay,

you know, you go off and handle that.

You, you can drive, you know
you're good with animals.

I'll give you this training.

You go off and handle that, and
that money will be largely yours.

We just need a small
percentage of it or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Catherine Ward: Mm-hmm.

Very doable.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

I'm taking notes.

Catherine Ward: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: One thing we haven't
talked about this is e this, this,

this podcast is equine assisted
world and you guys, you know,

do have equines on the property.

One of the things I obviously like
to do, when I'm training people and

talking to people is to tell them,
while I want you to train your horses

really, really well, I also don't
want you to be too horse focused,

because not every kid is into horses.

You, they can't be on horses, you
know, the entire day most of the time.

So what are you doing with
the rest of that time?

But you guys have actually answered what
are you doing with the rest of that time?

So admirably.

Talk to us a little bit about
the equine side of what you do.

Catherine Ward: Oddly enough, even
though that was going to be the start

of our focus when we started with the
autism therapy sessions, it, it greatly,

it very quickly moved to more of the
smaller animals and the livestock.

A lot of times the kids that we come
can be intimidated by a larger horse.

So at the time when we started, we
had Nicole's horse and her sister's

horse, and they were one was in
Arabian and one was a quarter horse.

No, we, we were both

Nicole Jones: quarter horses.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

They, up and a quarter.

Yeah.

Catherine Ward: Okay.

And so we started with them and then, the,
a lot of the kids just didn't really even

have that much interest in the horses.

They immediately wanted to go be with
the bunnies or be with the chickens.

And I found myself like, well, no,
wait, there's horses right here.

Don't you wanna, don't you
wanna be with the horses that

are like, no, we wanna do this.

And so with our philosophy of
following the child, and and so then

that became more of the method that
was being used with, with the kids.

So now we do have a pony, a Welsh
pony, and she is being she's not

fully trained, but I do train
her in the, the horse boy method.

And we have a couple of kids
that are interested in her.

But we also have a little mini horse,
a, a white, I don't know, he's like

32 inches tall and solid white.

His name is Gus, and he's a very good
introduction to to horses because

he's so small and because he's
white, we've allowed kids to paint

on him like a big piece of paper.

And, and so, currently right now with
the clients that we have, I have only

one student that wants to do any, any
back riding on honey on our Welsh pony.

So right now they're not being
utilized as I thought they would in the

beginning of the conception of this.

Nicole Jones: I, I will add though,
even though they're not being.

Ridden the, the students that need
the horse time, get their horse time,

but Right, like she was saying, we
gravely overestimated how important the

horses were gonna be to the children.

And now there are certain
ones that, that's honey.

The Welsh pony is the first one they
go and say hi to and they bring her

treats every morning or, you know,
so there, there are those that go

and talk to the horses and pet them,
and that's really important to them.

But the majority of our kids
find the rabbits, the goats,

the chickens to be their place.

And so it really just depends.

So they're there and they assist
the kids that need it, but for the

most part, it's a small animals that
carry, carry the weight of the kids.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's very interesting.

I, and I find these things go in
a sort of seasonal thing almost.

Like in the course of our own practice,
just my own home practice here in

Germany, I find that it goes really up
and down the number of hours or kids

that are really, really horse focused.

And sometimes I go through like a
semester where it's really almost

not about the horses at all.

Or maybe we're just using the horses to.

Get to a certain area of the forest
where the kids want to play and explore.

And actually they're
quite happy to walk there.

They like having the horses with, but they
appreciate having the horse to get back.

So you gotta get back up the
hill from the creek or whatever.

And that's when they wanna
sit on the horse and ride.

And then they'll often really interact,
say, oh, I love this, I love the riding.

Or but their focus is not there.

And I can see what they get from
it neurologically, and I can see

how the oxytocin gets them, gets
them communicating and speaking.

And then there'll be another semester
where it's like all about the horses.

And I have kids that want to learn how
to train horses from the ground and

they're doing pf and massage and they're
doing, and then another semester comes,

it's sort of not about the horses again.

What, what do you, talk to me about
that kind of flexibility of follow the

child because this is very, you know,
you're a horsey person, Nicole, and

you, you know that this is actually
one of the difficulties about the

horsey personality as we're, we're so
horse focused, we can actually have a

bit of trouble moving away from that
if that's not where the person is at.

You know, talk to us about that
learning curve that you've gone through.

Nicole Jones: Yeah, I, I think now
we've both just kind of accepted it.

I think at the beginning it was
a little bit harder and also

Catherine Ward: I.

Nicole Jones: I, you know, I remember
being a child and being so obsessed

with everything about horses that
I think, how can you, you've got

a horse right in front of you.

How can you not just want to do everything
about this, but really I, I think once

you just get to this point where you can
let go of you being the one in control,

I mean, it, it's less about, I think it's
less about the, the horse aspect, but just

once you can let go of, this is not about
me, this is about what the kids want, and

the kids are telling you what they want.

Once you can get to that point,
then everything else becomes.

Easier.

And so, you know, as, as much as the
horses are, you know, lesser utilized

than some of the other animals on the farm
you know, most of our visitors when they

come, even though they're not riding or
doing anything in particular, honey goes

up and greets every kid that comes in.

She'll walk right up to the gate,
the kids petter when they come in.

So horses are still kind of the,
and she, you know, tells them by

when they leave, 'cause she goes,
she, her pen is right where the kids

enter and exit for the school day.

And so even though they might not
be directly interacting with her

in the way that we see, she is
still the start and the end to

their day, which is really cool.

And, and the kids, everybody who visits,
whether it's you know, not specifically

farm school, but other classes or
events that Catherine puts on honey

is the one that the kids talk about.

Because she's right there where,
where all the activities are.

So, I, I think just once we let go
of that feeling that, oh my gosh,

we need to get the horses more
involved in this and just, it's okay.

Like, you know, the horses are
there for the kids who need it.

But it just didn't have to be
this, our, our whole program didn't

have to be wrapped around it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's, it's so hard for horsey
personalities because as you

say, we are so obsessed we can't
imagine that other people aren't.

Mm-hmm.

And then we almost become a bit
evangelic as I know, but surely you

want the haw, you know, so, and they're
like, well yeah, well not really.

You're like, really?

Well, how can that be?

And I think that there is a
personality type that goes with being

horsey that is a bit controlling.

I mean, I think you have to be a
bit bossy to be good with horses

because you have to have that slightly
leadershipy, bossy side that horses

themselves actually often have.

And I agree with you.

I think letting that go is
the hardest skill to learn.

At what point for both of you, because
you know, you, you, you, Catherine you

know, for a while you were involved in a,
a fairly controlled and controlling side

of Christianity, you know, and it sounds
like also listening to the story of your

childhood and the ups and the downs there
must have been a desire for control,

you know, the, to find order and chaos.

And I think a lot of us that
end up with slightly controlling

personalities, it's often in
response to chaotic events, you know?

And trying to find that
kind of sense of safety.

I'd like both of you just to talk a
little bit about your own journeys with

how you managed to kind of give up the
obsession with control, because I think

this is something that is an absolute.

Must for anyone who's going
to do our kind of work.

And it comes as a bit of a surprise, I
think, as you say, for a lot of people

that, oh, I'm gonna set up a, you know, an
equine assisted program and say, yeah, but

what if the person's not really into it?

You know?

So Catherine talk to, how did
you, how did you give that up?

Catherine Ward: I don't know if it
was a giving up or if it was just an

evolution and, and growing and moving on.

I think at the time in my life when
there was that much structure and rules,

there was probably some, some type of
comfort there far because, because it

does give you structure and it does
give you a, a, a bubble of protection.

Yeah.

And, and then a sense

Rupert Isaacson: of security.

Yeah.

Catherine Ward: Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely it does.

And and I would never speak on, on that.

I mean, I chose that life, so, I.

And there were great benefits to that
and, and a great love and, and faith

to, to my creator and God in that.

But I think as my mind grew it was
just, it wasn't growing out of not,

not wanting to have a faith in him,
but I grew beyond the structure of the

boundaries and, and just began to see
the world through a, a different filter

than just the filter of those rules.

And so then my filter, and I'll just
go back to it, just truly became

about kindness and, and seeing every
individual for being a human being who

they are, and that every person has
intrinsic value and that every person

has intelligence and, and especially in
working with kids with autism, something

that, that I learned through you, but
I think I'd already had that thought in

my mind, is that to just always assume
intelligence, always assume there is

while they, while a person may not be
able to verbalize and, and communicate

in a certain way that we never devalue
what is in their mind and their soul.

And so I, I think I just, while I did
leave some tenets of organized religion

behind, I didn't leave my faith behind.

And I just grew more in my acceptance
and unconditional love of people and

and truly try to, impart that to the,
the kids that, that are here and and

just find a balance, I guess maybe.

I, I feel like now I just have
a, a balance in life with that

Rupert Isaacson: Nicole.

Nicole Jones: I think a lot of that
changed for me during my time at

the A BA clinic because that was
a highly controlled environment.

Every, every minute of the
kids' day were planned out.

And while that can seem beneficial to
someone who's more controlling in their

personality or, or just the, the sense
of control, you know, eases your mind.

I saw how quickly it wasn't working and
that in the process of, okay, we, yeah,

we might have these kids under control but
we're also breaking their spirit because

we're taking all of that away from them.

So I very quickly just started to
realize this, this is not how you

work with children and by taking this.

Switching to Montessori and then
really taking your control out of it.

You can prepare you can prepare
the environment, prepare the

materials but really you let go
of control and then it's okay, let

the kids go and let them teach you.

And so having that realization of let go
of the control and observe and then watch

the kids flourish that, so it was about a
year's time where I really felt like this

deep change in my teaching heart, I guess.

And so now once that happened and it's
like, okay, let 'em, let 'em do stuff,

and, and I mean, I still have my moments,
you know, I, I might cringe a little

bit when they mix the Play-Doh colors
together, but I don't say anything.

So it's, but yeah, that's where I
thing, I mean, you can, you still

feel it, but oh my gosh, you have to
know that, that this is, this is fine.

So,

Catherine Ward: yeah.

Yeah.

And that, that could sometimes be
the, the biggest atrocity of the day.

At the end of the day when we're
cleaning up, we're like, oh my God,

the Play-Doh colors are mixed up.

So I actually gave to some of my kids,
'cause we've got modeling clay in the

elementary, and, and I gave one of 'em.

I said, here, here's your job.

Somebody mixed up all these balls.

I need you to separate the colors out.

And they did.

They were happy to do it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean, there you go.

There's an opportunity right there.

There's a learning
opportunity right there.

But, and, and then one
has to get out first.

You've gotta have your reaction.

Oh my God.

They just go, you know?

Yeah.

And then you look back and think, my God,
I wasted like a month of reactions before.

I thought, why don't I just give it to
the kids to sort out that, so, right.

Oh yeah, yeah.

We're so interesting.

Aren't we humans?

And it, it, it, I, I guess
it all comes down to fear.

But you know, you, you were talking
about let the, the quote let

children do dangerous things safely.

I found that actually with Jordan.

Jordan Peterson.

Catherine Ward: Oh, that's who said it?

Yes, that's right.

I should have known that.

Rupert Isaacson: But it, it is,
it is very true that if you grow

up on a farm, you are gonna handle
blades, machines, livestock.

And it's so interesting with
my three kids, you know, I've

watched them all going through it.

Touch wood, they don't tend to cut
themselves because you are constantly

with them sort of showing them what to do.

They observe you cutting yourself.

They sort of don't want to repeat that.

Occasionally they give themselves
a small nick or so on, but doesn't

everybody have the right to do that?

Then of course, it's very
different when it's my kids as

opposed to somebody else's kids.

So when we've got.

People coming, you know, onto the farm.

Obviously we do our best to
make sure that the quote unquote

dangerous stuff is not just lying
around and, and so on and so on.

But we also make it very clear that we
cannot and will not control every moment.

But what we will do is try to provide
mentorship and leadership because at a

certain point, the kids are going to need
to learn how to handle fire, or a blade

or, you know, a tool of, of some sort.

And you know, it's interesting.

Temple Grandin is big on this.

You know, she, she says you've got to
let kids work out the technologies,

the physical technologies, not
the software technologies of life.

If you want them to be able to order
later things, which means they've gotta

make some mistakes, which means you
got, but isn't it interesting how much

fewer mistakes with a Big M they seem
to make if they're allowed to make

a lot of mistakes with small lambs?

You know, have you not found that, what.

Nicole Jones: Yeah.

Well, and even just going to thinking
back and teaching at other schools,

I was writing out incident reports
multiple times a day for injuries

and things that were happening.

Yeah.

And now it, we don't have injuries
and things that happen at the farm.

Now, the first few weeks when children
come, we'll get bumps and bruises and

somebody gets hit by the swing 'cause
they're not used to where it is.

You know, that happens.

But after that we don't deal with we
don't deal with injuries and stuff.

I mean, you know, it, occasionally we'll
have things come up, but because kids

are allowed to, to try and take the
risk, because typically at more you know,

playground settings, they're jumping off
of higher things 'cause they're bored.

They don't, they're, or they're so
controlled and you can't go up the slide.

And, you know, so they're,
and they're boiling

Rupert Isaacson: over with energy.

Yeah.

Nicole Jones: Yes.

Exactly.

Overwhelms

Rupert Isaacson: their thought
process because they've

been sat still for so long.

Yeah.

Nicole Jones: Right, right.

And so here, because they're, we're,
there's, you know, freedom within

boundaries and reasonable boundaries.

And so once they learn where those
reasonable boundaries are very

quickly, they, they're able to
just go and, and do their thing.

And we, we don't have the same amount
of injuries and nicks and bruises that

I saw at a typical school setting.

Catherine Ward: Well, we, we talked
about earlier about giving them skills.

So, so for example, when, when October and
November comes around and we get people

that are donating their pumpkins that have
been out, you know, in their decorations.

We'll get, I, I don't know, one year we
got over a hundred pumpkins or something.

So we have pumpkin smashing at school
and, and so what fun, we don't just,

we don't just say, here, go, go at it.

We show them proper.

Handling the way you hold a hammer.

And we say you can use the blunt end
or you can use the hook end, but when

you swing, be aware of where your legs
are, you don't want your feet together.

'cause if you swing,
you might hit your shin.

And so we go through this
lecture of safety, and then we

usually give them a hula hoop.

So they're, each child is inside of a
hula hoop with their pumpkin and hula

hoops have to be so hi so far away.

And then, and then after they've been
given the instructions and the skills,

then they, then they're able to go at it
and they're just smashing those pumpkins.

And, and you wouldn't, you wouldn't
normally think you would allow 20,

25 kids to be smashing pumpkins?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

What about, what about
things like firewood?

You know, using, using an AXA split
word saw, you know, knives for whittling

or, or, you know, all of that sort of
thing, which of course there's no way

in any school anyone's gonna let you do.

Catherine Ward: Those are usually
reserved for the elementary kids.

Now.

Both, both the early childhood and
the elementary both have campfires

and we go through campfire training
and safety and all of that stuff.

And, but oddly enough, here
in Texas, we only have maybe.

A week or two weeks where we are
that you can actually have a fire.

Yeah.

Because we're, we're
summertime most of the time.

The, the kids, now that they've
been through a whole half of a

year now, the elementary kids will
be doing more with more tools.

'cause we wanna give them more time on
learning self-control because while they

have freedom, that age group can still
be really squirrely and everything.

Yeah.

And so when we can trust them to
have some self-control is when

we'll introduce some of that.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk
to me about bullying.

So I've generally noticed that in these
outdoor environments, you tend not to

really see it unless it's something
that's being brought from a regular

classroom out into the natural thing.

'cause the kids are just
not in nature that often.

So in their minds, they're still sort of
back in the, the, the playground politics.

Talk to us about, you've both been in the
public school system, plenty of bullying.

Talk to us about that or the lack of that
at one acre farm and, and if it's a lack

of it, what do you attribute that to?

Two.

Nicole Jones: You want me to start?

You can start and then I'll, yeah.

Okay.

Usually where we.

See it cummin.

Now we, we don't deal with
a bullying issue at school.

And, and that's even with
having a wide range of.

Of children and very diverse
backgrounds of children.

So yeah, with, with that all
in play, we don't deal with it.

The only time we've had issues come in
is, like you just said, when we have

a kid coming in from the public school
system and they come in and that's

just like they're operating motive.

'cause they just think I gotta
survive and that's what I gotta do.

And then.

It's October, November, December.

We see that all wane because they
realize, okay, I'm a part of this

community and I don't need to fight this.

I don't need to hold my own.

Like there are people looking out for me.

I have friends who it well,
and they quickly learn too.

That doesn't work with
the social dynamics here.

If I start talking like that,
nobody wants to play with me.

And so there, there is that part of
natural part of it that we let play out

because we're not going to tell their
kids, oh, hey, you have to play with

so and so because that's what we do.

You know, if somebody doesn't wanna
play with you, well, why do you

think they don't wanna play with you?

Did you knock down their castle?

Did you go and stomp on their mud out?

Did you tell them?

You know, whatever.

So there's a ton of conversations
that happen between teachers and kids.

And then eventually our goal is later
in the year is that the kids are having

those conversations and they're not come
having to come to the teachers anymore

to help you know, lead that conversation.

So the first few months,
there is a lot of that.

Oh, so and so said this to me,
so and so hurt my feelings.

So and so said this.

And then we get the two together,
we help them talk it out and

then they go back to play.

And so we, we don't do like, there's no
timeouts, there's no taking recess away.

There's nothing like that.

Now if you're being unsafe,
that's, that's where we do have a.

You know, the boundaries get bumped up.

Then if you're being unsafe with an animal
or if you're being unsafe with a kid, well

then we have to take some privileges away.

You can't go in the animal pen by
yourself because you're being unsafe.

You can't go over there where I can't see
you as well because you're being unsafe.

So once they learn, my privileges
get taken away they, they quickly,

they quickly kind of change course.

And so, it's been very rare that we've
had issues last beyond a few weeks.

It, it tends to write itself
pretty, pretty quickly.

I would say when we do tours, especially
with, with the age group I work

with, that is a question of about.

30 to 50% of my parents at walked
through, they ask about bullying and

how the social dynamics are here.

Mm-hmm.

So it is something, it tells me like,
even it's so prevalent that even before

kids are school age, like parents
are already thinking about this.

And so that's something that
we really want to strive.

We want to provide a peaceful environment
for these kids here, but we also

want them to be able to have enough
freedom to work out, you know what?

I said that that way and that
didn't work out and now that

kid doesn't wanna play with me.

So there is, there's that expectation
of kindness, but also you have enough

freedom that you can try things
and then learn from your mistakes.

So, but that's a hard boundary to
teach and it's something that even as

it comes up in real time, sometimes
as teachers we have to talk about, you

know, how are we gonna handle this?

Because it's, it's not a black and
white, oh, you said this now this

is a consequence type of deal.

Because that's how life is.

Everything is so dynamic day to day.

And so we just try and approach it with an
attitude of solving it as best as possible

and keeping a peaceful environment.

Catherine Ward: Now with the ages of
seven to 10, there, there's, you know,

an, an elevation of maturity there.

And that age group is very much more
competitive and segregate themselves.

Now we've got the boy girl
dynamic going on, boys against

girls, that kind of stuff.

And again, the ones that
come in from a public school

situation will be the bullies.

This, this age group tends to very
much appreciate if I treat them as

the growing up adults that they are.

And I will tell them that I'm like,
you know, if you're gonna act like

a baby, then I may have to treat
you like a baby, but I want to treat

you like the growing up adult that
you were, that you were becoming.

And so I have expectations of you.

And they like the, the way that we teach
in the elementary class is very Socratic.

So it's not just me
standing up and talking.

It's, it's a circle and it's
very discussion oriented

and interactive with them.

And they like talking
through this kind of stuff.

I can tell you that is my short fuse.

And if you wanna see Ms.

Catherine blow a gasket, it will be to.

Do something to an animal like kick dirt
on a rabbit or poke a stick at a goat.

Oh, Nicole will have to hold me back
from wanting to annihilate a kid.

I mean, I have to watch my temper on that.

And then the other one is bullying or
saying anything negative to somebody.

'Cause you'll hear kids say,
Ew, you have that in your lunch.

Oh, that's so gross.

I don't like that.

And so then I try to use that as
a teaching opportunity that people

have different tastes, people
have different whatevers with the.

Ages seven to 10.

We use a lot of object lessons.

If I start to see that the kids are
getting really catty and how they talk

to each other and the whatevers and
that kind of stuff, I will usually

try to take a child aside and just
talk to 'em, Hey, what's going on?

Where did you learn to talk like that?

Or something.

And or, or how do you think that
makes the other person feel?

But then we'll do object lessons.

I'll just, I, I won't address the whole
group and say, okay, we're having a

bullying problem, let's talk about it.

I'll just make some kind of community
group activity that we have to do that

fosters teamwork or some type of object
lesson that, that I, the first one I

usually use at the beginning of every
school year when they start getting that

way, is about with a tube of toothpaste.

And I think a lot of teachers
have used this, like, okay,

let's, let's see how fast.

We have two teams and, and they have
to squeeze the toothpaste out as

fast as they can into the plate and
who, who was the fastest to get the

toothpaste out and they're screaming
for each other and all of that.

And then I'm like, okay, I have a
dollar bill right here who can get

the toothpaste back into the tube.

And then they're looking at,
they're like, now some of the smart

ones will be like, well, let's
cut it open and put it back in.

And I'm like, no, you gotta get it
back in the same way it came out.

And so that it's, goes
through this whole thing.

And so then the, the gist of
that lesson at the end is like,

well, that's like your words.

It is so easy for you to get words
out, but once they're out, you can't.

Put them back in.

So be very, very careful and mindful
of the words that you, you put out.

And so every year, the kids that
have been here before, they're like,

when are we doing the toothpaste?

So, so for that age group,
I try to use object lessons.

And a lot of times I'll get on
Google and be like, object lessons

for being kind to one another.

And, and I'll get ideas from that.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean, so much of this
really comes down to the, I think all

schools go through this and all education,
all, all places go through this.

It's the culture is really,
comes from the top down, right?

I mean it, if you, if your main focus
is kindness rather than equestrian

skills or this therapy, or if you say
no, let's just start with kindness,

then the other stuff will fall into a
category and a framework of kindness.

But if we say, let's start with equestrian
skills, or let's start with an idea

of a particular therapeutic outcome
or an academic outcome, then kindness

might be sidelined in relation to that.

So I retake my hat off to you guys
and you know, for listeners who.

Well, maybe that sounds a
bit too good to be true.

It isn't.

I've, I've gone out there and over years
seen what Catherine and Nicole do and

it's, it's, it's not just impressive.

It's quite unique.

And we need more of it.

So, and it's successful.

That's the thing.

I've, I've just seen you constantly,
constantly achieve success.

So you guys are mentors and that's
really why I want you on the show.

We, we, we've sort of gone over the
two hour mark, so we should wrap up.

How do people contact you if they want
consultations, if they wanna learn,

if they want to put their own one acre
farm together, if they want to know,

you know, the ideas for lesson plans
and so on, whether it's homeschooling

or regular schooling, just talk us
through how they can contact you.

Catherine Ward: Well, if they go to the
website, they which is www dot, and this

is all spelled out, one acre farm tx.com,

so that's O-N-E-A-C-R-E.

F-A-R-M-T x.com

Well then we have a contact page where
they can send us an email if they wanna

speak specifically about early childhood.

Nicole's email is on there.

Elementary, my email is on there.

And so, and then our
phone number is there.

So if they're in the US
they can also text us.

And then we are on Facebook.

Also is one Acre Farm TX on Facebook.

So those are probably the, the major ways
that they can get in contact with us.

Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

Catherine Ward: Oh, here,
I'll put out the number now.

So if they wanna text us, it's
eight three two eight three two.

Well my phone's gonna blow up now.

Eight eight three two eight
six zero four seven five six.

And it's kind of funny.

Say that one more time

Rupert Isaacson: just so
people are grabbing their pen.

Catherine Ward: Yes.

8 3 2 8 6 0 4 7 5 6.

I can tell you if you call it
will go to voicemail because I

can very rarely answer my phone.

And in the voicemail it will
tell you, please text me.

'cause if you text, I can usually shoot
out a quick text and say, Hey, let's

make a phone appointment or something.

Rupert Isaacson: And you have
WhatsApp on that number too?

Catherine Ward: Oh yes, I do.

I do, yes.

So if they have a WhatsApp
then internationally we can,

they can get me through there.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Super.

Okay then.

Listen guys I think we should
have you back at a later date

to go into some further things
about specific, you know, teaching

specifics in specific ways and so on.

Yeah.

But it's been an absolute
delight to have you on.

And I just look forward to seeing
more and more of the same successes

and watching you guys grow.

And my, my ideal would be,
yeah, if there's one acre

farm in every neighborhood.

Catherine Ward: Thank you.

I would, I would love that as a vision.

It's been a joy.

Thank you for having us, Rupert.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, well

Catherine Ward: thank you very much.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you, Nicole.

Thank you, Catherine.

We'll see you next time.

Catherine Ward: Yes.

Alright.

Rupert Isaacson: Bye.

Catherine Ward: Bye.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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