Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

I've got Ellie Williams with me.

I've known Ellie for a while.

She runs a pretty Rad gig out in
Pennsylvania on the Pennsylvania,

Maryland bordered borders,
but she's actually a Brit.

Who's a long term resident
resident in the USA.

So you're going to hear a bit of a hybrid
accent here, but she does very, very,

very interesting work in trauma in you
know, equine assisted psychotherapy

of various kinds and in neurofeedback.

And these are areas which aren't
necessarily known so well within

the equine assisted world.

And for that reason, I wanted Ellie to
come on and educate us a little bit about

them particularly in the work with trauma,
particularly in the work with attachment

disorders and that sort of thing.

There's a lot we can learn.

It goes, as we all know,
a lot further than just.

giving kids pony rides.

But we've all been at that point
where people say, well, you're

just giving kids pony rides.

So I'm gonna turn it over to you, Ellie.

Can you please tell us what you do?

Who are you and what are you doing?

Why do you do it?

Ellie Williams: Well, hopefully
we've got a bit of a few

minutes to answer that question.

So Ellie Williams, executive director
of equity and support services.

I work in Dallas down Pennsylvania
and also in Hunt Valley, Maryland.

And I have been doing this work started
with the equine assistive work back

in 2006 going on 18 years of just
the journey of where the need is.

We work a lot with children and
youth in the foster care system,

adoptive clientele as well.

Lots of trauma, lots of abuse and neglect.

In my journey, I started with the
Agala model and quite assisted work.

And then I found you, which is
amazing because I then work with

our autistic clients within the
Horsepoint model and method.

And it's a great hybrid.

I still have some great clients and we
had the wonderful Temple Grandin at our

farm many years back and learned a lot
from you and her in that area as well.

And Through my journey, I've been doing
a lot with trauma and attachment issues.

Children in the foster care system
have gone through a lot and they,

they just need, they don't understand
how to have healthy attachments.

So I decided to go and become trained.

Our local attachment therapist
in the area just left.

So I was like, well, better me.

I'll, I'll go do it.

and fell in love with the work.

I connected with dyadic
developmental psychotherapy.

Dr.

Daniel Hughes is the creator and he
actually lived about an hour, just over

an hour from me, was able to study under
him for about two and a half years.

And currently on their board of directors
as their treasurer, I think by force,

just because I was the Northeast U.

S.

that I became treasurer,
but amazing group of people.

And doing the work with, as
you said, attachment and trauma

the developmental trauma stuff.

And one of the other wonderful aspects
of the work that we do is we provide

neuro, neurofeedback services using
the neuro optimal neurofeedback system.

And I do that when, when I have an
office session, I will hook a client up

and have a office therapy session with
a cat or a dog, because there's always

animals around in in the work that we do.

And that's, I call it my magic machine.

It balances the brain and it helps
clients open up and go to a deeper

level when we're having therapy.

So, lots of things that we're doing
in just our small organization in the

Northeast Pennsylvania, Maryland area.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you're
a Brit, you're a horsey Brit.

We also connected you and
I through the Hunt World.

What got you a horsey Brit?

Over to Pennsylvania.

Why does a horsey Brit fall in love
with attachment disorders and trauma?

What's the story?

Ellie Williams: So I think
I think you just follow.

I don't know.

It's probably a long winding road.

Really?

We moved to the US because
my dad's job brought us here.

And you know, there were a lot of
things that happened in my life that

led me to work for children's services.

I worked there for about 10 years.

And there just wasn't great services, you
know, there was sort of the traditional

therapies and it was sort of before,
I mean, there was some play therapy

and I'm not saying they're not great,
they are but I wanted something that

I fell in love with and my love of
horses and my love of helping people was

just, oh, it was just the perfect fit.

Rupert Isaacson: Trauma, though, and
attachment disorders it's a rather

specialist road because, you know,
one's dealing with really intense

and heightened emotional situations.

It's not everybody's cup of tea.

There can be conflict, there can
be manipulation, one can feel, you

know, manipulated by clients even.

It's, it's, it's, it's complex.

Ellie Williams: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Anyone who works
in the sort of psychotherapy field

acknowledges that it's it's tricky.

What was it about that that
made you think, yes, actually,

this is my professional home?

Ellie Williams: I think, I think
when you work with horses, I always,

I've always worked with young horses.

I love training young horses and
figuring them out and doing a lot of.

You know, putting the time in and
helping them get to know what they need

to be, you know, what they need to do
and jumping and dressage and flat work.

And, and it's the same with people.

I just, I find that I have this curiosity
and I want to help them live in a

world without anger and violence and no
power struggles and need for control.

And it's the parallel is just beautiful.

I mean, horses as a third animal, that's.

That's what we help them, you know,
when we interact with them, it's very

similar than the kids that, that I
work with as well and families as well.

Rupert Isaacson: So I think a lot of
us see that parallel between working

particularly with young horses and
also a lot of us who work with donated

horses, you know, we get the horses
with all the stories that they have

in their bodies and in their minds and
the rehab is very much part of this.

I think a lot of people can relate.

However, not everybody.

Understands the terminology and the
world of attachment, talk us through it.

What is an attachment disorder?

Ellie Williams: So basically between the
age of one and three as a human being,

we need to have a healthy attachment
or build a healthy attachment to our

caregiver, whoever that might be.

And most of the time it's mom and
dad, or it's just mom or it's just

dad, or sometimes it's granny, you
know, whoever that caregiver is.

And when you live in a chaotic, violent
drug and alcohol, lots of things that

are unhealthy, you're learning not,
well, there's just unhealthy connections.

You're not able to have
a healthy attachment.

So when you have an unhealthy
attachment, it's now disorganized.

And You don't know, you know, it's kind
of like when you have the child say,

look, mommy, I've made this for you.

And they go, Oh yes, I'm so proud.

That's amazing.

And you have this just
nurture and this pride.

that I have so many children
that don't know what that is.

You know, they, they know the,
Hey, mommy, I did this for you.

And it's like, get out of here.

You're worthless.

You know, so they don't
have that connection.

They don't feel connected.

And then, then they don't
know how to connect.

And that's where the unhealthy attachment
and disorganized attachment comes in.

Rupert Isaacson: What are the
usual negative outcomes of that?

What do we see?

Why do we need to be
paying attention to this?

Ellie Williams: So as kids get
older, they're going to have

difficulty in their peer relations.

They're going to struggle socially.

They're going to try
and control everything.

They'll power struggle.

Oh, that just.

You know, they know how to power
struggle, they know how to push buttons,

they know how to make you angry, and,
because that's what they've learned,

they've learned through whether it's a
volatile, violent environment, that they

are now, that's, that works for them.

They don't know what calm and nurture
and loving is, they just know the chaos.

Rupert Isaacson: And what, why did
they find that that works for them?

What, what, when they, when
they start mirroring those

behaviors, what do they get?

Ellie Williams: They get attention.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

They get

Ellie Williams: attention
that they never had.

And they go, Oh, that's kind of nice.

I like that attention, even though
it's, you need to sit down or you're

going to the principal's office.

It fills a void that they
had, they never experienced.

And then our job is to then help
them learn how to fill that void

differently, which is really difficult.

Rupert Isaacson: And does it
become, would you say, dopamine

related, so then it becomes like
a seek and find behavior, right?

Ellie Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, interesting.

So if somebody has an attachment disorder
what are the steps to ameliorate?

Ellie Williams: It's a long journey.

It's a really long journey and
I, I really enjoy working with

kiddos as young as possible.

You know, if I have teenagers that have
had such a dysregulated life throughout

their, you know, you know, until
they're teenagers, it's the ingrained

behavior is it's so it's solidified.

It's really hard for them to sort of go
back and relearn some healthier behaviors.

But it really, I love working with
kids when they're 4, 3, 4, 5 years

old, because it's about helping them
understand what they do now, and

relating it back to their developmental
trauma, and being able to then help

them, and like, educate them through
psychoeducation of what they need to do.

Wow, I see that you do this.

I've noticed that this happens
when, when somebody da, da, da, da.

Oh, I wonder if that's when, kind
of like when you were little and,

and mummy and daddy ignored you, you
know, and, and how that can connect.

Yeah.

And it's, Then, being able to help
them restructure themselves and

where we, through the DDP did on
into psychotherapy, we have a model

called PACE, which is being playful,
accepting, furious, and empathic.

And if you are peaceful, and whether
it's as a clinician, myself, a parent,

a caregiver, a school personnel, if you
can implement those four things into a

child's life or a client's life, it helps
them understand, because sometimes, so

if, if if one individual, say I have a
client that's really angry, if I'm being

silly and playful, sometimes they're then
not angry, sometimes doing a silly walk.

Because they don't wanna go back to the
car and they power start struggling and

they, they don't want the session to end.

Doing a silly walk to go back to the
car is just works it, it snaps them

outta the of that power struggle.

And I'm gonna be accepting of
where they are all the time.

I'm gonna accept that they're in
this need for, I don't want to leave.

I feel safe.

I'm having a good time.

And then I'm gonna be curious
'cause I wanna know more about that.

But I'm going to have empathy
because they're in that place.

Does that make sense?

Rupert Isaacson: It does.

Do you ever find this can happen
I'm a great believer in humor.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And I also know
that humor can sometimes with someone

who's power struggly, be taken as a
way to have yet more power struggle.

When you're humorous and playful and then
a kid or a client takes that and reacts

even more negatively, what do you do?

Ellie Williams: I just, you just
think on your feet, you know, you're

like, well, okay, that, that didn't
work that, that sort of amplified.

I might step away.

I might create some space.

The great thing about working
with the animals, they sort

of meet them where they are.

So if I have a kid that's
power struggling and.

They're trying to get the horse from back
into the stables and the horse is wanting

to eat the grass and now the horse is the
power struggle because they're trying to

get the horse So then I might be like,
man, have they been talking to you?

That was the kind of like what
we were doing just a minute ago.

We were power struggling and now look,
you're power struggling with that one.

So it just kind of lightening it up.

And if you're smiling and you're
happy, you can't be angry.

So, you know, being able to
shift the focus is so important.

So, so important.

Rupert Isaacson: When you've got
these kids that are coming to you

so young, who's bringing them?

Ellie Williams: Most of the time,
foster parents, parents, caregivers,

Sometimes I'll have drivers.

Sometimes I don't have
the parental caregiver.

I really do.

I mean, I asked for it, you know,
if I can have it across because

that way I can check in with
them at the beginning of session.

They can be in session.

I know that's something that you
always talked about having them

in session as much as possible.

And if not, just being able to
have that contact, what's going

well, where are the struggles.

That sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's okay.

So foster, the foster system.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: We know that equine
assisted therapies are not cheap.

Anything with a horse is not cheap.

How are they affording to come to you?

Ellie Williams: So I do, I have contracts
with our local agencies, our government

agencies, which took a long time to
Not only get the contract, it took us

a few years to get the contract, but it
took us probably another eight years to

get paid to the point where we needed
to get paid, if you see what I mean.

Yeah.

But also then having to do a lot of
fundraising and grant writing and

requests of, you know, connecting with
people in our community that would

support us to cover the difference.

The other aspect, we do private
pay, we have a sliding scale.

We don't like to turn anyone
away if we don't have to.

So we try really hard to get
them the funding they need.

Rupert Isaacson: And so you,
you bootstrapped it originally.

You, you looked around for
support in your community.

You created a non profit.

You went about it that way.

When you, when you made the
shift to becoming a non profit,

a funded provider from the state.

Can you, there's a lot of people who will
be listening to this, will be thinking,

you know, I'm at the start of my career.

I, I don't quite know how
one goes about that stuff.

In a nutshell, what's the
red tape process for that?

Ellie Williams: I think it's, it's
networking, finding, finding people within

your community, different organizations,
whether it's rotary, whether it's.

You know, young, young entrepreneur
group, you know, talk to

as many people as possible.

And I, I say so often,
I don't know everything.

And if I don't know something that I
need to know, I'm going to find somebody

that does, you know, and it's, it's
so important that face to face and the

handshake and the conversation again.

And being to go, you know,
that was, I was lucky because I

actually worked in that system.

So I had a lot of contacts already.

Rupert Isaacson: You
were already a therapist.

Ellie Williams: So I wasn't
a therapist at that point.

I worked in the child welfare
system as a, as a worker.

I was actually one of the
managers in our local office.

So I knew people that I needed to talk to.

I already had that step ahead.

But if you're going out there and
you're going, Oh, I want to work within

whether it's the mental health or
it's drug and alcohol or it's child

welfare, go bang on the doors, go
set an appointment, give them a call,

walk on in, because it's important.

Like I'm, this is what
I'd like to provide.

How can I go about getting,
you know, getting on your.

On your docket, so to speak, absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's funny.

I'm a great believer that people
say no three times usually.

And then the fourth time they
tend to say yes, just to shut

you up and make you go away.

And I'm always surprised that
people fall at those fences.

It's like, dude, they're
going to say no at first.

That's their job in a way.

To see if you're serious about it.

And did you find that, that you
had to go back 2, 3, 4 times?

Ellie Williams: Yeah, I think the
biggest, the biggest thing is, is

asking them what their needs are.

You know, this is what I have.

Does it fall within
the need that you have?

Our biggest thing is we were, We didn't
have the outcomes that they needed, like,

they're like, well, we like the sound
of what you're doing, but does it work?

Is it, you know, will it produce
the outcomes that we want?

So we worked for about
two and a half years.

To get those numbers and to get those
statistics to go back in and say, we're

maintaining over an 85 percent success
rate of clients completing treatment.

Rupert Isaacson: Now, how did
you prove that when without

like a peer reviewed study?

Because people could say,
well, that's just anecdotal.

You know, why should we believe you?

Ellie Williams: So basically, we
just do, I mean, you're right.

It's not like an in depth study but we use
outcome measures that are valid through

the, you know, we have different ones.

We use the youth outcome questionnaire
and we use the child questionnaire,

Rupert Isaacson: youth

Ellie Williams: outcome questionnaire.

Rupert Isaacson: And it's something
people should be aware of.

Ellie Williams: Yep.

And it's a pretest and a post test.

So it basically gives you a snapshot
of how the client feels they're doing

before treatment and after treatment.

And then we have a child and adolescent
functional assessment scale, also

known as a campus, and that's an
outcome measure that I complete

and I completed every 3 months.

To be able to sort of see how
the progress is, is coming along.

Rupert Isaacson: And are these
things that people can effectively

download off the internet?

Ellie Williams: The outcome
questionnaire is, is something that

it's a small fee for, to be able to
use that outcome method the tool.

With the CAPAS, it was
a more in depth process.

I had to study it pass a test, knowing
that I know how to, to utilize the model.

It's more in depth.

They have a, an annual fee,
which isn't, isn't huge.

But it's a very good measure.

Very good measure.

Rupert Isaacson: Who controls that?

What's the governing body for that?

Ellie Williams: Well, off the top
of my head, I can't remember, but

there's, they have a few different
outcome measures that they, this one

governing body has, and I can't remember.

I have like the JIF and the CAFAS
and a couple of others as well.

But

Rupert Isaacson: these are, these are
recognised by Local health authorities.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

This is good to know because this
is the sort of thing I didn't know

when I was starting out, you know,
I was just bloke in a field with my

kid, you know, wondering what to do.

And this, I still don't know, you know, so
I'm always, I'm always intrigued to know

what are the, If you like official steps
that people can take and should take.

Ellie Williams: Well, and it's nice.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

Rupert Isaacson: No, you go ahead.

Ellie Williams: It's nice because I'm
working in the child welfare system.

Often I will be subpoenaed for court.

There's obviously.

Different things that I have
to be careful about, but we're

working with lawyers and judges.

You have to have that specific information
and being able to have outcome measures.

It can be very helpful, you know,
when you're up there to support a

client that you're in court for.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you provide
trainings, advice, mentorship for people

that are wanting to start off in this?

Because it's, it's, it's,
you know, it's interesting.

You're very clear about
how to navigate this.

And I'm very used to hearing people be
actually much less clear and more wooly.

So I think this is valuable information.

Do you, do you do that sort of
service for people that want to

get going in this profession?

Ellie Williams: I have.

Yes.

It's one of those things when I
started, we again, went to all the

people that you could learn from.

I do charge a fee.

But it's something that I'm always willing
to, to help somebody get further in this

field because we all need to be doing it.

It's, it's amazing work.

So.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

So people can contact you.

Correct.

Okay.

So at the end listeners, we're going
to obviously have contact for Ellie.

So if you've got these questions and you
want to engage her services to help her

light the way through Fangorn Forest.

and Mirkwood and the Mists and
the Mines of Moria she will

help you with the Balrogs.

Alright, I've got some questions about
some of the methodologies you use

because they're quite intriguing to me.

You use the Igala model and that one I'm
familiar with and Lynn has been on this

podcast and we're all great fans of Lynn.

Both of the Igala and the
Horses for Mental Health stuff

she's doing now and so on.

I'd like to ask you pick your brain a
little bit about a couple of the other.

Yeah.

things and I'm going to look at your
website as I'm doing so I get the

names right because these things
one can often get the names wrong.

So

our transformative DDP services is

something that you orient people towards.

What is a DDP?

So

Ellie Williams: that's what I was
talking about a little bit earlier with

the dyadic developmental psychotherapy

Rupert Isaacson: dyadic.

Yeah, that's a word you don't hear
every day when I go to fill my car up

with gas the bloke doesn't say would
you like some dyadic or would you like

some diesel or, you know, when I'm
trying to, you know, walking my dog

I'm saying how's your dyadic today.

So what's dyadic me.

Ellie Williams: But it's more
about the dyad, isn't it?

The, the parent child, the
connection with another.

So, I mean, in theory it could be a dyad,

Rupert Isaacson: meaning
a two way relationship.

Ellie Williams: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Ellie Williams: We prefer in the
work that we do to have a parent

child or, you know, have that dyad.

If necessary, we need to have, I'm, I
can be the other parts of that diet.

I didn't see what I mean, like,
cause it would be me and a client.

or preferably the client and a caregiver.

Rupert Isaacson: And you are
facilitating between the dyad.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Your piggy in the middle.

How does it work to talk us through it?

Ellie Williams: So it just I think
the biggest thing is, is when

we first start with a client, I
guess I'll start at the beginning.

I really need to know more about the
caregiver, whether it's a foster parent,

whether it's a biological parent,
adopted parent, whoever that might be.

I need to know, and they
talk in DDP, they talk about.

Meeting with them separately first
and getting to know them and learning

about their own attachment history
and really learning and helping

them because if you're asking them
to do something very different.

from their original parenting style,
it's going to be a little bit tricky.

So it's basically building that
relationship between you and the

caregiver first, and then bringing
the child in to work with, within that

dyad, like you were talking about.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so what would
be the standard tools that you'd use?

And how's the horse come in?

Ellie Williams: Well, the great thing is,
is that so as of right now, we have three

miniature horses, two horses, and a pony.

And we'll, I'll just give an example.

I think it's great when you
can give an example rather than

just talking in generalities.

I have a family.

I work with a young boy
and have multiple siblings.

So we have three miniature
horses that are now been named.

The siblings and they sort of through
discussion like, well, which one's

this one, you know, and, well, that
one's the one that stares off into

the corner and kind of withdraw.

So that's that that kid.

That's kid a.

And the one that's up in everyone's
business and trying to eat your clothes.

Well, that's.

Child B, and oh, and the cat, that's
child C, because he is in everybody's

business, and he's also typically a
little, you know, so we're using through

metaphor, and being able to connect
with the animals through that way and

then we will, very much like the Agala
model, we will throw out, whether

it's, you know, creating something, or
observing relationships or interactions.

And then through discussion and
processing, being able to take those

experiences from the client, observing
the horses and the interactions, and

then connecting it to their own life.

Rupert Isaacson: So what
happens when you get a kid or a

client saying don't be stupid.

That's not my dad.

That's a cat You know, why should
you know, that's just a cat.

You know, this is stupid.

Well, yeah How do you
how do you navigate that?

Ellie Williams: I almost went like
so I was almost like oh and then I

was like Well, I'm not in session.

So I'll stop um So, it is, it is
hard, it is hard to sometimes see that

cat, you know, it is a cat, and it's
hard to see, like, you know, because

they are very literal, aren't they?

Yeah.

And it is, and so I'll have empathy
for them, but they're like screw

this, I don't, I don't, I won't do
that, that's not Right, and there can

Rupert Isaacson: be a
need to challenge, right?

They need you to show that you
care enough to explain why the cat.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

And if that's going to be a
cat, that's fine, that's a cat.

And then it, then it, the conversation
might then be connected with,

it's hard to feel connected.

So if you keep it as a cat, it's not as
real and it's not as it's connected as a,

as, as the person, if you see what I mean,
that there's, you know, has been labeled.

Yeah.

It keeps it separate.

So, does that make sense?

Rupert Isaacson: Do you find
that sometimes you have to

actually explain metaphor?

Ellie Williams: Um, for
the little ones, I do.

At the beginning, when we first start
with the equine therapy, I'll explain

the metaphor a little bit more,
just because they don't understand

metaphors, really, until a certain age.

Yeah, I mean,

Rupert Isaacson: it's fairly complex.

Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah.

So, we'll simplify it.

Thanks.

And you know, say, say the, the
client's working with the miniature

horse, and mom says, oh, well this is
like Sally Sal, Sally and, and you.

And so now we're gonna call that
horse Sally for the rest of the, you

know, when we're with that client.

Unless the client says, no, not
Sally, I don't want s you know, I

don't want it to be called Sally.

And then being able to put words to that.

Wow, what is it about this one
that's like Sally, you know, so,

even if they're a little resistant,
you can still keep working with it.

Rupert Isaacson: But I presume you need
people to at least have a certain degree

of theory, what psychologists would
call theory of mind and false belief.

Absolutely.

Understanding that other
people see things differently.

I remember spate taking.

Oh, gosh, you know, two to four
years slowly to educate Rowan,

my son in metaphor, but of course
he was classically autistic.

Now, of course, he, you know, it's
like he could script Monty Python.

So I created a complete
monster, which is great.

But it, you know, the reason I ask,
you know, one does sometimes find that.

Metaphor doesn't come necessarily
naturally to everybody, right?

Ellie Williams: And I'm just

Rupert Isaacson: intrigued at
what, what are your tools for

helping people to understand it?

Do you have a kind of standard
toolbox that you would use?

Ellie Williams: I think
everyone's different.

It's kind of like, you know, when you have
like horses, everyone's a bit different.

I think for me, it's you have to get a
feel for the client and you have to get

a feel for their level of understanding
and I adjust in the moment as necessary.

If I need to explain it a bit deeper
or make that connection and that's a

little bit different than the Agala
model because it's in the Agala model.

It is about the metaphor and the
client to maintain that metaphor.

But like you're saying, sometimes,
whether it's autism or attachment.

They don't understand it.

They don't get it.

So being able to put words to that and
explain it a bit more is necessary.

Rupert Isaacson: What's your advice
for someone who's starting out with

this dialect model, who maybe would,
I know I'm thrashing this horse a

little bit, but what, if, if they,
they run across a client who doesn't

necessarily get the metaphor so easily,

Ellie Williams: what

Rupert Isaacson: would be your advice
to somebody To help the client to

understand you're very experienced.

I'm sure a lot of things come.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Automatically
to you, but imagine they didn't.

Ellie Williams: I think for me,
it's meeting them where they are.

And sometimes it's just, is it about
me wanting them to understand it?

Okay.

You know, is it, is it because.

Is it okay for them to just if
they if they've got all this

pent up energy and they need to
run around the arena, 10 times.

Let's have running races, you know let's
let's change the focus and go somewhere,

maybe we have to go somewhere different.

Maybe we have to get creative,
you know, I think that's.

I have to reflect a
little internally there.

If it's, if it's me that needs
them to know, is it working?

Is it just naturally happening?

If not, then there is more education
of like, hey, buddy, this is really,

this is a struggle for you, isn't it?

Gosh, it must be, you know, mommy wasn't
there for you when you were little.

That must have been really difficult,
you know, and now this, this

horse here is over in the corner.

And I wonder if there's a
different way that we can, we can

see if we can get him over here.

You know, like, so now I'm like
encouraging and educating and connecting

and helping him in a different way.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Right.

I love your points about if
they need to run around, then.

Let them run around.

I mean, that, that, as you
know, with horse boy, that's the

standard thing is follow the child.

So without that, one
can't build the trust.

And if you can't build the trust,
then there's no relationship.

And if there's no relationship, there's
no communication and we can't begin.

But sometimes, you know, one
can have trouble, perhaps.

Explaining that to, to
a parent or caregiver.

He's like, no, we came here
to do the thing, one thing.

And like, well, because the
person's not yet ready for the

thing, ready them for the thing.

Ellie Williams: And

Rupert Isaacson: I

Ellie Williams: try and get that across
to them when I meet with them first.

That things are a little different
around here sometimes and

sometimes I look a little nuts,
but you know, we'll get there.

It just looks a little different

Rupert Isaacson: just, you know, I want
to go to a couple of the other modalities

that you use, but with the DDP, what
drew you to that particular model?

So, so strongly,

Ellie Williams: I think when, when the,
when the attachment specialists moved

out the area and I was like, well, crap
now I've got to figure this one out.

I did, I did a lot of research, and Dr.

Hughes work is just so, it's
profound, and it's so different,

you know, it's being Who is

Rupert Isaacson: Dr.

Hughes?

Tell us about Dr.

Hughes.

Ellie Williams: Dan Hughes,
he calls me the horse lady.

He's he's an amazing psychologist that
just, he's written many, many books and he

Rupert Isaacson: What's
his first name again?

We didn't quite get it.

Ellie Williams: Dan.

Dan.

Dan

Rupert Isaacson: Hughes.

All right.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

And he is He's just brilliant.

He's like, you know, just sees the world
a different way and wants everybody to

know, like, to share what that way is.

Kind of like when, with you and
with Lynn and it just learning.

I don't know.

The thing I like about it, I mean, in
traditional therapy, you're, you're

taught to be the neutral party and
you have to have no feeling and you

have to be like this sort of stoic.

blank thing.

And with, with DDP, Dr.

Hughes is, is about, you know,
sometimes it is about helping this

kid know that this is a sad moment
and boy, oh, I'm getting a bit teary

and I've got a tear in my eye and
my heart's beating a bit faster.

This is really sad, you know, because they
don't know, they don't know what sad is,

you know, and it's, it's, It's beautiful.

It's a beautiful model, and he, he
just wants to share it with everyone,

and he's done an amazing job.

Yes, is it complicated?

Did my brain explode in
the training process?

Probably about ten times.

Rupert Isaacson: What was the thing
that blew your brain the most?

Ellie Williams: It just works.

I think, I think the kind of like
with, with the horse boy, there's

a scientific aspect behind it.

There's a neurobiology behind the DDP.

You've got Yeah, it's

Rupert Isaacson: what is that?

What is talk us through the science?

I'm intrigued.

Ellie Williams: Well, I think I think
it's well, I think that's where I'm

still I'm still learning in the fact
of just how it regulates your system.

How can you and that's why I use
the neurofeedback which I'm sure

we'll talk about at some point.

Because.

Clients that have attachment issues
are dysregulated, and they don't know

how to regulate, and then, so then,
obviously your central nervous system

is not in balance, so then you're,
so there's a scientific aspect to

it, and it makes sense, and when it
works, and when you, when you avoid,

The power struggle and you learn how
to have, you know, a client accepts

you and trust you to try new things.

It's, it's just beautiful.

So

Rupert Isaacson: for those people
that are followers of, I mean, we're

all followers of some degree, you
know, polyvagal theory to some, you

know, is it something similar to that?

Is it regulation of?

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Autonomic nervous
system getting you from your dorsal

freak out to your ventral vagal

Ellie Williams: ha.

You know,

Rupert Isaacson: is it
trust and rest and digest?

Is it along those lines?

Ellie Williams: Yes.

Yeah.

There's a lot of discussion
about polyvagal theory and.

John Balin is a wonderful neurobiologist
who's also involved in all of that

and you know, yeah, it's just, I mean,
it could be, talk about it for weeks.

John

Rupert Isaacson: Balin, you said?

John

Ellie Williams: Balin, J O N.

Rupert Isaacson: And is he, he and
Dan Hughes, they work together?

And where are they based from?

And how do we find out more?

Ellie Williams: Both are in the Northeast.

I think John's in Delaware,
and I Dan's now up in Maine.

He was in Pennsylvania, but he retired.

Well, he's not really retired,
but moved up to Maine.

And they are a dream team
when they work together.

Actually, we have a conference
in September for DDP.

They're having a conference in the UK.

And all about working with and seeing
life through an intersectional lens.

What does that mean?

Just, like, just how everything
comes together, whether it's

draw the blank of just if you think
of an intersection, whether it's

diversity or racial or cultural or or
everything, absolutely everything that

Rupert Isaacson: add to
a particular situation.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

And just seeing, seeing
life through that lens.

And going to a deeper level.

And this is sort of the focus of
the, of the of the conference that

we're having in, in September.

And we're going to have some amazing, John
and Dan will be one of the presenters.

And we've got presenters from all over
the world to really focus on this.

And that's in September

Rupert Isaacson: in the UK?

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

In Nottingham.

In

Ellie Williams: Nottingham.

Rupert Isaacson: One
of my favorite places.

You're going to be there?

Ellie Williams: Yes.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Ellie Williams: Yeah, we are.

It's good.

It's going to be a good one.

Rupert Isaacson: When in September is it?

Ellie Williams: I think it's
the 21st and 22nd thing.

Rupert Isaacson: I
might be in the UK then.

Ellie Williams: Fantastic.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

So DDP a good thing.

People should look into it.

I'm going to look into it.

Okay.

Talk to us about You've got, you
know, equine assisted psychotherapy.

So this is something which I think
a lot of people are curious about.

I'll try to talk about
cause it sounds complicated.

How does it dip?

What is it?

And how does it differ from DDP?

When would you use one?

And when would you use the other?

Can you talk us through
that a little bit, please?

Ellie Williams: So I do, I do
a lot of DDP in the office.

And then I do a wonderful hybrid.

I think I think where I, where
I struggle, where things are

different is in the Agala model.

It's very self directed and it's
about following the client's path

and Sort of guiding and, and not,
not directing, yeah, non directive.

And with DDP, a lot of the clientele
that we have, it's very, they don't

understand human relationships in
general, and they struggle with

relationships, and they struggle, so
being more directive is necessary.

It's kind of like we were talking
about the metaphor earlier.

It's more difficult.

They don't get it.

So it's needed to maybe
go into more detail.

So this is where I've sort of provided
this hybrid of utilizing my DDP skills

and techniques within the equine therapy
world, whether it's with a horse, whether

it's with the dogs and cats, you know,
whatever I might be using on the farm.

If that makes sense.

It does, it does.

Rupert Isaacson: And now you've got,
before we were pressing record you talked

me through a situation that's a bit
specific to Pennsylvania where the state

has taken legal action over opioid use.

If you're listening to this from, say,
the UK or other parts of Europe you

might not know or be aware of quite how
drastically negatively the opioid, the

use of opioids of various kinds, has
impacted American life over the last.

20, 25 years or so.

Those of us who grew up, you know,
in the 80s, we were all familiar with

crack and, you know, crystal meth
and things that, you know, like that,

which impacted families terribly.

But the opioid epidemic, because
these drugs are the cure.

Yeah.

Quote unquote legal sort of legal
forms of heroin effectively, which

by the way started as a legal drug.

That's why it was called heroin.

It was actually created by Bayer
in in Germany as supposedly a, a

non addictive form of laudanum and
that didn't work out very well.

And they called it heroin because
it was supposed to save the day.

But they're, they're
effectively forms of that.

And, you know, when I was living in
Texas for so long, I was observing

Neighbors, kids of neighbors, people
around me just falling like flies.

And the latest one is fentanyl.

And there are even people sort of
within Horseboy who've lost relatives

and that sort of thing in the last
year or two to fentanyl, because

fentanyl is so incredibly unregulated
that you don't even know what's

in the pill that you're taking.

So people have been.

A lot of people die.

The pharmaceutical companies, Big
Pharma have unusually actually

been taken to task over this event.

Can you talk us through what's
happened in Pennsylvania and how that's

affected the services that you provide?

Ellie Williams: Yeah, it's really exciting
in the fact that such horrible things

have happened from the opioid epidemic.

And The it's my understanding
now, if I'm incorrect, if I speak

incorrectly, it's not, it's not
out of it's out of ignorance.

But my understanding is, is that.

The states are able to, you
know, have have sued big pharma.

From my understanding, and then been
able to have some settlement funding.

Come in to help them
support the communities.

Work through the things that have
happened because of the opioid epidemic.

And in our area it's, and I had
to write it down because otherwise

I don't want to mess it up.

It's called the York Opioid
Collaborative and everybody from

outpatient clinicians, like myself
to the the corner to different.

Organizations in the area that deal with.

Individual situations that
are related to substance use

specifically the opioid epidemic.

We are all getting together and
we are going to work as a team

and we're going to try and.

right the wrong, so to speak.

And we're working on, you know,
education, we're working on grief support.

We're working on so many different
things to help our community sort of

rebuild from this, this, these horrendous
things that have happened because of

Rupert Isaacson: opioids.

What are the horrendous
things that have happened?

What have you observed in your
rural community with this?

Ellie Williams: I can't tell you
how much like how many kids that

I have that have been affected.

By whether it's the, the death of
a parent, the overdose of a parent

drug addiction themselves it's
a, it, yeah, it's so, it's just

rampant, and it's just heartbreaking.

Rupert Isaacson: How many of the kids
that you're seeing that have ended up in

the foster system, is it related to this?

Ellie Williams: I would say more
often than not, unfortunately,

Rupert Isaacson: like 50%.

Ellie Williams: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Above 70.

Ellie Williams: I would probably
say between 60 and 70 percent of our

clients have a substance use disorder.

Issue, connection, passing, death,
you know, that sort of thing related

to substance use, drugs and alcohol.

Rupert Isaacson: Before I get
into how you help them I'm just

curious, you know, you're a long
time resident in the U S you're as

American as you're British, really.

What do you attribute it to?

Because when I was first moving to the
USA drugs were really an urban problem.

Right.

And somewhere it shifted to
becoming a rural problem.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, drugs was
something which you did when I was young

to try and be cool and identify with
the counterculture and so on and so on.

And then somewhere it
moved into the mainstream.

Yeah.

Did this, did this, yeah,
town to country shift.

Why?

What happened?

What do you think caused that?

Yeah.

Ellie Williams: I think, well,
interestingly enough, because I know

when we moved here in the late eight
mid to late eighties, I remember my

mom saying, Oh, we're in a good area.

There's no drugs.

You know, it's all good.

And my brother said, I can get
whatever you want tomorrow.

So it was always there.

I think, personally, I think, with
transportation, I mean, everyone's mobile.

Now, it's everywhere.

In our area, we're sort of,
you know, we've got New York,

Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.

C.

We're sort of like in
the 95, I 95 corridor.

It's really from our area in
South Central Pennsylvania.

It's rampant because it
can come in in the ports.

It can come in.

You know, so many different ways and
everyone's getting creative with it.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, but
what, what's driving the demand

and what I mean by that is

When I was first, you know, I, I trained
horses under the table illegally in

Virginia when I first moved to the USA,
so, you know, there's a lot of drinking,

there's a certain amount of drug use,
people use coke to keep, get themselves

up in the morning, that sort of thing.

And then, you know, that coke
and that sort of thing were

fairly rampant among the moneyed.

Right owning youth and that
sort of thing, but it was it was

still in general things that people
did to party really to sort of, I

guess, to celebrate life in a way
some people crashed on it, but others.

You know, they did it for a while
and then they moved on and there

was sort of an expectation that
that was what people would do.

They'd go through their, you
know, naughty phase and then, you

know, this isn't a naughty phase.

And what, what has changed
in American culture?

What's changed in rural culture?

I think because because you say you're
on the I 95 corridor, right, but we know

that you could go to the most remote
part of Montana and it would be there.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And even where quality
of life is high, you know, even where

rural culture is strong and maybe
there is a lot of cowboy culture and

rodeo and there's stuff going on.

And it's not like they're totally bored.

I mean, there's stuff happening.

What what's changed?

That's what I'm trying to get to the
bottom of something changed in the side.

Ellie Williams: I think, I think as
a, as a, as a culture, I think we were

coming to the whole, like, instant
gratification, no pain, you don't

have to deal with it, you know, it's
kind of like, it's like the opioids.

Well, you have surgery will give an
opioids because then it won't hurt.

Right.

And I think from a mental
health perspective.

I think people obviously are now learning
that the mental health part of life is

very important and it's been sort of
poo pooed, you can't see it, it's not

like a broken arm, you can't see it
so people don't understand it as much

and it's the same, and my, my opinion,
whatever it, however it might come

across, is that, you know, if you use,
you don't have to feel, if you use, you

don't have to cope and all those things
that those struggles and, and use.

Things that are difficult go away,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

And I guess I guess I'm sort of thinking
as you're as you're talking I guess

that in back, you know, 30 40 years
ago These drugs were illegal difficult

to get you had to it was quite risky
to go and get them That was half

the thrill was you know, we've got
to go to this bad area dodgy bloke

that you got to buy it from and blah
But of course these drugs are legal.

Ellie Williams: Yeah

Rupert Isaacson: prescribed by
doctors and given a great Quantity

and then they sit around in
people's houses and kids find them.

Ellie Williams: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: maybe that's
the difference perhaps.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what have
you observed is the difference with

Fentanyl as opposed to the other
because Fentanyl seems to be the

latest model that is the seems to be
the Ferrari of death dealing legal.

Right.

Opioids.

What's different about that one?

Ellie Williams: I think
it's the deadliest.

I mean,

Rupert Isaacson: why is it so deadly?

Ellie Williams: It's so strong.

It's, it's unregulated.

You can't, I mean, it's,

you never know what, you know, when
it's, you know, you hear, I hear

so often it was they, they OD'd
because it was laced with fentanyl.

because they can't regulate it.

I mean, I'm not sure.

I mean, it's an illegal drug, so
it's not like it's going to be

regulated, but you know, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so somebody
comes to you and their life has

been negatively impacted by it.

What, what percentage of people are you
seeing that are addicts slash users?

What percentage of people are you seeing
that are people who've been affected

by family members who are addicts slash

Ellie Williams: users?

That's as an outpatient clinician, it's.

You know, typically, I think many
outpatient standpoint, active

using is, it's not exactly,
you know, our top choice.

I did, I did work with one
client in particular who was

struggling with recovery.

That's, we sort of continue
to go back and forth.

Most of the time they're
working on their recovery.

They've gone through rehab

and a lot of times I'm
working with the kids.

And the kids watching the family
members go through rehab, being away,

disconnecting, maybe then, you know,

starting to use again, you
know, that sort of thing.

So that's where, that's where I, my, a lot
of my work is with the, with the kiddos.

Rupert Isaacson: And so when a kid
is observing this obviously they're

at risk of being drawn in, but

there's also, you know, just a
thousand other traumas that come.

What's your standard?

approach with a kid that is affected
by this going on in the household?

What do you

Ellie Williams: I think, I think for
me, from a therapeutic standpoint, it's,

it's understanding what they're, what
they're going through, what they're, how

it's affecting them, how it, how I can
help support them and process through

these experiences, how to keep them safe.

You know, those, those sort
of things is very important.

Rupert Isaacson: You have kids that
say to you sometimes, well, you

wouldn't understand Ellie, you come
from a nice home, you, you grew up

with horses, you're, you're posh,
you're this, you're that, you know,

how can you possibly empathize or
put yourself in our shoes like this?

Do you get that?

Ellie Williams: Sometimes, yeah.

And then sometimes it's, it's, it is,
it's, you know, It does feel better

when you feel like you're, you know,
you talk to somebody that you can

connect with and, you know, a lot of
times that's when you're in the drug

and alcohol field, you have people
in recovery that are counselors.

And, you know, sometimes that
might be a conversation to be had.

That would be really cool.

Maybe we can connect.

Maybe we can find somebody for
you to connect with that has.

Those, you know, experiences
in a therapeutic setting, you

know, let's talk about that.

Let's unpack that a little bit, you
know, cause it might just feel being,

I need to feel like I can connect with
somebody, but then is my education

and understanding enough or are
they just deflecting away and just

saying, well, you're, you're crap.

I don't want to talk to you cause I
don't want to talk about it anyway.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Right.

And I would find whatever
excuse to not talk.

Ellie Williams: Right.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

How do the horses help with this?

Ellie Williams: Oh, they're brilliant.

They're just brilliant.

They, they feed into the energy.

I've had, I have these, these big blocks.

I have these little blocks that
have words written all over them.

And I cannot tell you how often the
kids will pull these blocks out and

just throw them all out of the arena.

And the horses will go
over and pick them up.

Nine times out of 10.

I'm pretty sure horses can't read, but
they'll pick up a block that will be

like heartbroken or scared or, I mean,
and all the blocks are not necessary,

whatever they pick up, the client
can relate whatever's happening with.

And

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, do you have
a block that says totally cool?

No problem.

Ellie Williams: I need to
have one of those actually.

Yeah.

But we do, we have loved, we have all
these different ones and it more times

than not, the horses will They'll
connect, whether it's, whether it's

if they need the energy and the being
beside them and interact with them in

the moment, or if they need to like,
they've turned their butts around

facing away, those sorts of things.

And as a clinician, then that's,
that's what we talk about.

Oh, that's really interesting.

That one's over there looking that way.

What's, what's going on with that?

You know, that's my mom.

She's always looking out.

She's checking to see where, where
the dealer is and when, when the

next fix is coming and, you know,
I'm just back in, don't give a

shit, you know, that sort of thing.

And yeah, it's just the horses feel it.

They feel the energy.

Rupert Isaacson: When you get
these kids, how long are you

typically working with them for?

And do you get a chance to follow
through with their progress afterwards?

Or does it, is it a bit of
a mystery where they go?

Ellie Williams: It's.

It's an interesting, that's an
interesting question, actually, because

the process with developmental trauma
is sort of, it's not a quick one.

And I have found in child welfare in our
area more recently, they've been trying to

sort of push things through a bit quicker.

You know, whether it's terminating
parental rights, placing for

adoption, that sort of thing.

But it's, it's interesting that

If you don't have the child or the
client regulated and secure, they're

not going to, they're not able to then
move forward in life in a healthy way.

And then you have failed adoptions and
you have ongoing mental health issues.

And it's, I've seen more of it because
they're pushing things along and I'm

saying they're not ready, but then I'm
getting trumped because For reasons of,

you know, the child welfare system says,
well, they, they need to be adopted now.

And sometimes they need to be adopted.

But my services need to continue.

Right.

But in our area and most
areas that the cases close.

The day of adoption, so
then services don't continue

unless they pay out of pocket.

So we are creative.

There are, there are times where
I have the, the children and youth

have agreed to pay for up to a year
of continued services or ongoing.

So we're getting there.

We're getting there.

But it's, you know, I do.

I mean, I've had clients that have
been with me for six months to a year.

I've got clients that have
been with me for nine years.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Talk to us about a nine year client
because that, that's, that's quite.

An amazing thing to be able to go
through that kind of trajectory

of relationship with somebody.

Can you, without naming names,
can you talk us through a story?

Ellie Williams: So, I've got a couple.

I'll go.

So, this one, this one's a cool
one because this is a kiddo.

You know, when you work with clients
that have extreme trauma, extreme,

extreme trauma, life was very unsafe.

And I'm going to talk in very big
generalities, because I know this is

going nation worldwide, nationwide,
and I don't want to even come close to

potentially breaching confidentiality.

So working with a client and a
caregiver within the, and we, and

she clients to this left the client
that I've had for a long time.

All the programs, so I've.

They've had neurofeedback, they've
had DDP, they've had client therapy,

they've, you name it, that we've
done it, they've done it, you know,

and, and, and just learning that life
isn't scary and life is not chaotic.

And, you know, from, from a lot of
times I have clients that There's a lot

of pooping issues, urinating issues,
whether it's in the rooms, whether it's

in the house a lot of sabotage again,
power struggles, need for control.

They have nothing else
that they can control.

They will control.

their bowel movements and extreme
behavioral issues, extreme

behavioral issues, runaway behaviors.

I mean, going, you know, all of these
things and just never giving up.

And I think that's the biggest thing
when you have a client for so long,

you're building the relationship, right?

This is a client that doesn't
know how to build relationships.

They weren't, didn't have
that secure attachment.

So, not giving up, you know, they
run away, well we're gonna, let's,

let's figure out how to keep you
safe, what's going on, finding the

right medications, that sort of thing.

So now, being able to reflect to a
level of, you know, sometimes I just

don't get people, and sometimes I talk
to them and I just, there's a sort of

this void of, because I, I wasn't taught
that when I was little, you know, when

I was young, I didn't know what that
was, and I wasn't, you know, nobody.

I didn't know what having a cuddle
and feeling safe and secure was,

and being able to go from that to
then now being able to reflect to

a deeper level, and I only see them
once a month, you know, and it just.

What a journey for them to now be
able to go out into into the world.

And yeah, it's just beautiful,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

We judge or we discern
if you like success.

So often by, as you said, going out into
the world having a job, having home,

not causing trouble, you know, not.

causing yourself or others undue
suffering, but even, even more becoming

a contributing member of society.

Have you, have you seen that outcome?

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Yeah.

And even, even times where I've seen, I've
maybe worked with them for a short time.

And like I said, this, the models
that I've chosen to use in, in sort

of collaboration and combination.

Like I've seen kids that might have
run away, but I've worked with them

for six months to a year and then.

Been able to just through the
grapevine, I'll run into a worker and

be like, oh, you know, did they ever
like, reconnect if they have a safe.

And to know that they're doing okay, and
they're doing well, and yes, they did

have some struggles, but they're safe now.

Means the world, you know, and I had a
kid that I went to shelter to see, and I

was like, wait, this kid looks familiar.

He was a part of a group that
we had years ago, and this kid

remembered the names of our animals,
the dogs, the horses and the cats.

And you can't tell me in typical
therapy and traditional therapy half

the time the kids don't even know
the name of the therapist, right?

That's pretty powerful.

That's pretty powerful.

Rupert Isaacson: When you, have
you seen any of those people come

into the therapy world themselves
and, and become therapist mentors?

Ellie Williams: Not yet.

Just because I mean, we're in 18 years.

I have had some interns that have been
that have grown up in the foster care

system that have become therapists,
but I did not work with them to

Rupert Isaacson: see that happen.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Rupert Isaacson: That's great.

So, so, so some can see
it as a career path too.

Ellie Williams: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Great.

Yeah.

Alright.

I want to ask you about another
thing, . You mentioned neurofeedback.

Now I happen to be a fan of neurofeedback.

I've had neurofeedback myself and
in times in my life when I've been

going through funks, you know, I will
seek out healing of various kinds.

People know that I would obviously ride
to Mongolia or go to the Kalahari or.

You know, go sit in sweat
lodges and all of that.

Yes.

But I'd also look, you know, in
more conventional as much as saying

neurofeedback is conventional.

And I've, you know, tried therapy.

I find therapy didn't work for me so
much because it felt like my nose was

being rubbed in my own poop you know,
and it was a bit less of a bad dog,

you know, bad dog is why I'm here.

But I found with neurofeedback I've
been intrigued because I've met a

neurofeedback the practitioner and
therapist some years before, and I'd

always say, Ooh, that sounds interesting.

Got to learn more about that.

And it'd been on the list.

And then finally that was for the one
day I think I might benefit from that.

So I went along and had the,
you know, the electrodes put on

my head and watch the screen.

I'm going to have you talk us
through what happens with that.

But what was interesting to
me is I could feel, I could

physically feel my brain changing.

Yeah.

And I could feel.

Thought processes changing in a way that

the closest I could come to something,
compare that palpably was things

I felt with really good healers in
indigenous settings, where you could

feel the change really happening
physiologically inside you and your brain.

So please talk us through neurofeedback.

Not a lot of people won't know what it is.

And they might get that confused
with other types of feedback things.

So what is neurofeedback?

How does it differ from
other types of feedback?

And then also there are
different types of neurofeedback.

So just give us the skinny.

Ellie Williams: So I use a system
called neuro optimal neurofeedback,

and that is a system that is sort
of all included within itself.

So sometimes with biofeedback or other
neurofeedback systems, You have to become

a clinician in that you make adjustments
as the, the training goes with the system

that I use the neuro optimal system.

It is all within the algorithm.

So, as having the machine,
the brain training system, I

am able to hook up a client.

It's a 33 minutes.

System training and I unhook them.

Everything is done within the
algorithm, which is fantastic because

there's no room for human error.

It really

Rupert Isaacson: does that mean
if I go Alexa is healing me.

Alexa fix my brain.

Ellie Williams: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: brain

Ellie Williams: brain.

Okay.

Yeah, it's I love this system.

And again, it's the system that I chose
to use because of it being within.

Within the system, and I don't
have to because I do it there.

I can do a therapy session while that
client is hooked up for neurofeedback.

So, the system that I use reads.

356 brain waves a 2nd, it allows
for if it reads an imbalance in the

brain, there will be a scratch in
the music or a break in the music.

and the brain kind of goes, wait, what?

And adjusts.

So it's helping sort of like
regulate your brain mechanically.

So then hopefully your brain will then
start regulating itself on its own.

Rupert Isaacson: Are they watching?

So when I did it, I watched
a movie and then I actually

watched a series on neuroscience.

I thought that was appropriate and I
was sitting in the chair and whenever

occasionally, you know, the screen
go very small or fuzzy or something.

And presumably that was when the machine
was detecting some quirk or anomaly or

something, and then it would write itself.

And as you explained that, you
know, my therapist explained,

well, that's your brain.

Writing it, but this is a bit, this
can come off as gobbledygook to people

that don't know and understand it.

What's going on?

Why are you watching a screen?

Why are you listening to music?

Why does it change or the
screen go small or something?

What's happening when that happens and
what happens when it writes itself?

Just give us a total ignoramus to tell us.

Ellie Williams: Well, I think, I
think when the brain is stressed, if

you think about a muscle, like your
brain's a muscle, just like your arms

and your legs and all that stuff.

But when you're out of whack,
your brain, nothing is balanced.

Right?

So, it's, it's like, when we're
stressed, we're holding ourselves,

we're tense, we're like, achy, our
brain's achy, we have headaches we're

not sleeping, those sort of things.

And being able to, like you
say, you feel a difference.

So it's reading your brain waves
and it's working to regulate.

It's working to balance within the system.

So I always called it my magic machine.

I love the kids.

They may they like me pulling it
a magic machine because it does.

They feel better using it.

And the great thing is, is the system
now you can actually do a therapy session

during the time that you're hooked up.

That's why I like doing,
I mean, I can do a movie.

I choose the audio with the
music because I can do the

therapy session at the same time.

Rupert Isaacson: When you do a
therapy session at the same time

the, the, presumably the person,
they're talking to you, right?

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Presumably the
person is going through, the brain

is computing information that, you
know, and trying to make decisions

and trying to understand things.

How do you know that the machine
is not misinterpreting the brain

going, what does Ellie mean by that?

As a brain imbalance thing,
like, how, how would it know?

Ellie Williams: Because it's amazing.

It is all within the
algorithm, to be fair.

I'd have to ask Dr.

Brown for that one.

But the

Rupert Isaacson: Who is Dr.

Brown, by the way?

Ellie Williams: He created
the neuro optimal system.

Rupert Isaacson: Dr.

Who Brown?

Ellie Williams: Just go with Dr.

Brown because it's something that's a bit,

Rupert Isaacson: Neuro, neuro
optimal, Neurofeedback, yes.

Neurofeedback, Dr.

Brown.

Just keep talking, I'm
going to look him up.

Ellie Williams: Okay, thanks.

So for me, it's,

I find it interesting because I'll start
with a client who might be actually quite

resistant to opening up to that deeper
level, and more often than not, the brain

regulates probably about 15 minutes in.

And it's starting to open up, and
they're actually more open to going to

a deeper level, so it's almost an aid
to the therapy session, because you're

able to really go to a great place.

There's less deflection and disconnect.

From a therapeutic
perspective which is amazing.

That's why when I have clients that
are in shelter, and I go see them

in shelter, I always recommend the
neurofeedback along with a therapy

session because it's important to me
being in a shelter placement anyway

is nerve wracking and stressful.

So it's, it's just important, you know,
we have the ability through the neuro

optimal system to, to help regulate and
balance and yeah, it's, it's amazing.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what makes
you decide, okay, I think for

this client, it's neurofeedback.

Ellie Williams: I think if I see them
dysregulated and not being able to

regulate, if, as long as I can keep them.

In the chair, like I have some kids,
like I said earlier that just need to run

around, but it's a very active session.

Obviously, I can't do that if they're
attached to neurofeedback, but I

think if I can see them starting
to regulate themselves without it.

they won't need it, you know, but if they
really need, if they're that dysregulated

and they're really struggling, it's such
a, I mean, it's, it's just a wonderful,

I don't know what the right word is tool.

It's just a wonderful tool that
it'll help them get to where

they need to be easier, quicker.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that
in general clients, kids or adults

that they're quite curious about it?

Like,

Ellie Williams: absolutely.

So I do,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Yeah,

Ellie Williams: yeah, I do.

I do some sports kids that have like
big it either riding showing athletics.

I have some clients that come just
for neurofeedback because it helps

with their sport performance.

A lot of sports, especially, I mean, I
think worldwide, but there's a lot of

pressure in, in sports for teenagers.

And I cannot tell you, like, I'll
show up and nobody wants to see me.

They're just like, you have the machine?

Do you have the machine?

Because they, they want to
feel better and they do.

Like you said, it works.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, it really did.

It was, I looked forward.

I, you know, I couldn't imagine
looking forward to a therapy session

until I, until I discovered that.

I was like, I would, you know, I'd be like
leaping out of the car and into the chair.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And it also felt
frequently that one got full of

endorphins because you could feel
your brain actually working hard.

You know how it is.

You you're on you

Ellie Williams: sometimes

Rupert Isaacson: have
trouble staying awake.

You almost want to drop off and you can
feel your brain kind of going fucking

on running up the hill here, you know,
and but there was a corresponding

feeling of pleasure and relief.

Ellie Williams: Right.

Rupert Isaacson: It's as
if one had done a workout.

Have you, here's a question.

Have you tried it yourself?

Ellie Williams: Oh, I

Rupert Isaacson: love

Ellie Williams: it.

Yes.

If I have to, if I have a big court day,
like testimony wise I'll hook up before

I go in cause I'll be super focused.

But also, you know, running a business
and everything, you get, you know,

get overwhelmed and it's a bit hectic.

But it's a nice way to regulate as well.

So yeah, love it.

Rupert Isaacson: So when you do that,
I mean, for your own stress management

then and coping, do you have someone
hook you up or do you hook yourself up?

Ellie Williams: I hook myself
up, which is quite tricky.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

Ellie Williams: Trying to figure it out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I get it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I can see why you had
trouble remembering Dr.

Brown's Christian name because it is
indeed one I have never seen before.

His name is Valdean.

Ellie Williams: There you go, Val.

That's it.

I knew it was something difficult.

Rupert Isaacson: Valdean.

It's V A L D E A N E.

Okay.

And I'm looking at his bio,
which is like 8, 000 pages long.

But it says for he was, he was
working in the mental health industry

before getting his PhD in psychology,
but for over 25 years, he taught

continuing medical education courses.

Lot of work with
borderline anger and so on.

And developed it with his wife, Dr.

Sue Brown.

And I have a, I've pulled up a
website, but we'll, we'll give all

these all these resources at the end.

Do you know of many other equine
therapy places using neurofeedback?

Ellie Williams: I don't actually.

And it's, it's a conversation
that comes up a lot.

Well, first of all, with, with
equine, it's difficult because

you'd have to do it separately.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

Ellie Williams: But I often have
through the different conversations

and connections with professionals
through DDP with, with dietic

developmental psychotherapy.

It's a conversation that's often had,
there's a lot of interest because

it's, again, it's such a great.

Additional support.

So it's something that's
being talked about more.

And Dr.

Brown, his brain, remember I said earlier,
like, if I don't know it, I want to

find somebody that does like, like you
said, his it's like 8000 pages long.

He thinks around like, 5 corners from
now, like, he is so beyond smart.

And it was just.

It was an honor to meet him.

How did you meet

Rupert Isaacson: him?

Where did you

Ellie Williams: meet him?

He was a part of the advanced
training session that we did.

And just fascinating,
absolutely amazing man.

And just again, he's created the system.

That's just absolutely brilliant.

Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody wants,
you know, like, you know, with, with

horse boy, for example, we have a lot
of locations and I'm thinking now as

we're talking, you know, maybe we should
have, you know, a neurofeedback wing

to what we do, because as we're always
saying, you know, so much of the time,

the person isn't actually on the horse
or interacting with the horse at all.

You know, that, that all this other
time when they're at your place where

they're, they're not doing that, what
are we doing with the rest of our time?

So we of course have movement method and.

Other things, but I'm beginning
to think, okay, yeah, maybe we

should have a neurofeedback studio.

What training do you have
to go through to do it?

How much does it cost?

What do people need to know?

Ellie Williams: It's
actually the cost itself.

I was just having a conversation with
a colleague last night, actually.

I like, we have a professional system.

They have family systems that are
less expensive and There's a, like

a level, I think it's a level one
training and advanced training.

It just goes into more detail
about the actual system and the

outcomes and that sort of thing
in the, in the advanced training.

It's probably about now.

We got our system a few years back,
but probably about 15, 000 maybe to

the system for the professional system

Rupert Isaacson: for the training.

Ellie Williams: It
wasn't, it wasn't a lot.

I mean, it was, it was
probably a few hundred dollars

training and it was online.

You don't have to be a
clinician to just hook up.

You can be a life coach.

You could be a, you know, a worker.

Because you're, as long as
you're not providing counseling,

you can see what I mean.

So it can be used in
different, different avenues.

And

Rupert Isaacson: someone could indeed just
get a machine and use it on themselves.

Ellie Williams: For sure.

Yeah.

So I went down to a pony finals in
the U S and I was hooking people up.

And I had a, one of the customers
went and bought their own machine

because they're like Was absolutely
loved it and wanted to keep doing it.

So now if you have a personal machine,
you pay per time that you get hooked up.

You can like get a bundle of 100
or 10 with the professional system.

It's unlimited, which is nice.

And

Rupert Isaacson: okay so that's
the, how long is the training?

Ellie Williams: It's usually, I think
it's like a weekend or two mornings.

Rupert Isaacson: So it's really doable.

Yeah,

Ellie Williams: absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: And.

Insurance?

Any special insurances?

What if the machine goes bang while
it's on your head or whatever?

Yeah,

Ellie Williams: so, well, there's
no, there's no it can't hurt you.

So insurance, like liability, I
mean, that is covered under our

liability, you know, for the company.

Rupert Isaacson: So, so if
someone's already got a therapeutic

practice, they don't need to take
out extra insurance for this?

Ellie Williams: Correct.

Correct.

The we do pay for a
membership with the company.

So then, like, we had a situation
where it stopped working because,

you know, technology stops working.

They had another system to
us within 2 days from Canada.

It's a Canadian company.

And in two days, we shipped them
ours, they fixed it, they shipped it

back, I mean, absolutely brilliant.

They also will go in like the back door
and fix it if it's something that they

can fix in like from remotely, that
is, I mean, it's worth every penny.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Sold.

I think I'm going to do it.

Why not?

Okay.

So, we've covered a
fair bit of ground here.

I know you're also working with military.

How does that work?

And how, how's it different?

From the work you're doing with
trauma, with other types of trauma,

or it, does it really effectively, you
know, turn out to be the same work?

Ellie Williams: Well, I think
the work of it is the same.

I think the, the biggest struggle
we have is the stigma behind mental

health treatment with, with getting
veterans and military to Sort of buy

in to the work that we do, which is
which is probably the biggest struggle.

My biggest just my awareness,
because I have I have some.

That's that you have been
sort of my, like, sort of

been with me for a long time.

But I think the biggest thing
is, is that if you are close to

a base or a big hospital, it's.

that's where you're going
to get the clientele.

So just from a personal sort of feedback
standpoint, it's, it's really difficult

to get them to come to therapy, you know.

Even when we do

Rupert Isaacson: it,

Ellie Williams: we're still struggle.

We still struggle.

Even if we talk about, you
know, just doing groups and not

even, it's not even therapy.

We're doing just learning.

It's still really hard.

If you see what I mean,

Rupert Isaacson: do you, do you go and
knock on the doors of the base and say,

Hey, we're here or how do they find you?

Ellie Williams: So we
don't have anything close.

Like our, like we're still like our
VA hospitals, like an hour and a half

away, which makes it really difficult.

But yes, that's how I started.

So yeah, it's it's again it's about
knocking on the doors, asking them

three times and hopefully by the fourth
time it'll, they'll just say yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, as we, we fallen into it ourselves
almost by accident by word of mouth.

And now, you know, we've
had programs with the U.

S.

Air Force and the Bundeswehr in
Germany, and recently actually with the

Department of Defense in the Netherlands.

In Europe, it seems that there
really is, And embracing and

an acceptance particularly when
it involves horses and animals.

I think you must have found this
that when you have adults and you're

pairing them up with the ponies,

Ellie Williams: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: well, they, they,
they show up just because they like

the horses, you know, and that one
of the things that we noticed was

that people will complete and finish.

A therapy program, really,
just because they miss the

horses and they want to come.

They don't give a, they
don't care about us.

They just, yeah.

And that's really how it should be.

And I think that's one of the powers.

When you're, is there anything specific
about the work that you're doing

with military or first responders?

What, how, what's different about
your approach when you're doing that?

I

Ellie Williams: don't think, I think
it's, it's all quite consistent.

I think the, the biggest piece for me,
I mean, we work within the trauma field.

And I mean, our lives are
built on relationships.

So, whether it's combat trauma or
complex trauma, you know, we're

still gonna use the same skills and
it just, it just might, might have a

little bit of a different audience.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

If you have, do you deal with guilt
of feeling that, Somebody was there

on the wrong side doing the wrong
thing, like that kind of guilt, not

I took a life or I experienced a
traumatic situation or many, but I

really actually feel that I shouldn't
have been there and I was the baddie.

Do you, do you, do you get,
have you dealt with that guilt?

Ellie Williams: Yeah,
yeah, yeah, for sure.

Rupert Isaacson: And how
do you deal with that?

I'm curious.

Ellie Williams: I think with a lot of
like, except like acceptance and empathy,

you know, you have to fully understand
and unpack where they're coming from, you

know, and I'm just like, understanding,
you know, that perspective, putting,

putting yourself in their shoes and
understanding like, what is that for them.

That's so important.

And for them to be heard and to
completely unpack it and understand it

and, you know, they can't change it.

How can they work through it, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: How do
they work through it?

Do you tend to observe?

What's the internal
process that you observe?

Ellie Williams: Well, it's
different for everyone.

Sure.

You know, I think, I think it's they have
to go through, you know, the acceptance.

They have to go through Yeah,
understanding and it's, I think the

horses meeting them where they are and
being able to just, they, they, they

don't, they don't take any crap, but
the horses don't, they, they know, you

know, like I've had, I've had that's
talking about situations in the middle

of the field and the alpha horse
comes and puts his head on his chest.

You know, from the other side of the
field, you know, it's, it's instances

like that that's different that makes
it more profound and more powerful to,

you know, talking about the loss of a
family member, and then having this.

Profound moment, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: and

Ellie Williams: it's, that's
what makes this work different.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

No, I, I couldn't agree more.

And when you see those things
happen, you can't explain them.

I remember you, you probably
remember a horse we had called clue.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Who actually passed
away this year finally, but in

the best way, he very, very old.

And he just was not getting up one
morning in the field as he was good.

And he was still the boss.

Mr.

Grumps, but Mr.

Grumps I remember once we had a child
who had drowned and Was in a pretty

unreachable vegetative state and you
know, they brought him out to us and

he said, gosh, you know, it's just,
I'm punching above my weight here.

You know, I, I, I truly just
don't know what to do, but I

don't want to turn people away and
clue is exactly as you described.

He came from across the field and he began
to lick this child all over his body.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you're looking at
it going, what is this?

Yes.

Yeah.

You think, you know, something
about horses and you realize you

absolutely know nothing at all.

You know, you, you, yes.

And at the end of that, the child
reached out and you know, and

then clues like, Oh, job done.

You know, he goes off and just starts
grazing and you're standing there

with your mind completely blown.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Ellie Williams: it is.

Well, I think it helps
the process, doesn't it?

I mean, that's a profound story and
it just, it can bring, especially I

think with veterans sometimes the,
the disconnect can be so severe and

it can bring like that grounding that,
that connection back to the, to the

moment and to the, to the present time.

That can be really
important with the horses.

Like, I've had a lot of female
veterans with military sexual trauma.

And I'll tell you, I've had horses
that don't get mouthy, get mouthy.

And then it's that whole boundary, and
you need to say no, and set the the

rule, and And then, wow, what was that?

I didn't want him doing that.

You know, okay.

How did you say, how did
you say no, thank you.

No, I don't want you to do that.

So it's it's a great start to
that conversation of like, no,

no.

Rupert Isaacson: So that's interesting.

You observe the horse pushing over

Ellie Williams: the

Rupert Isaacson: boundary or at least
perhaps the boundary and not being there.

So the horse and then a boundary being
set and then the horse respecting.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, amazing.

Ellie Williams: Or the horse not
respecting it immediately because

sometimes people don't listen to that
person now and having to, yeah, that,

that's been, that's been a that happens
a lot with the, the sexual trauma stuff,

you know, from a, from a standpoint of,
you know, from a, yeah, as a victim.

Rupert Isaacson: Here's a question,
you know, men tend not to talk

about their sexual trauma very much.

There's more particularly if it's male
to male, you know, there's a lot of

shame attached to it and, you know,
compromised manhood and all that.

Do you, but it does happen, of course,
it happens quite a lot in the military.

Have you worked with that much?

Ellie Williams: Not as much again,
just military wise, just because of

just our location, we don't have that.

large of a population.

I have worked with it with
young, younger boys that have

been victims of sexual assault.

Sexual abuse in childhood and
then working through not only the

trauma, but their sexuality, their
identity, that sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: When it comes to an
identity issue that's tied up with that,

how can you give us an idea about how
the work with the horses might play out?

Ellie Williams: Well, it's interesting,
actually, because as of right now,

the conversation comes up a lot.

The conversation comes up a lot
because we have all male horses on

the farm, and that's not by choice.

It just happened that way, whether they
were donated, whether they're ours.

And I swear most, most oftentimes
horses will, the male horses will

drop down with their penis out so
they can during session because either

they have to pee, they're relaxed.

They're just.

And it seems to present itself
when you're talking about sexual

assault, that sort of thing.

So it gives a good conversation
starter, because you're

already talking about anatomy.

And because, especially younger
kids, they'll be like, what's that?

You know, because they don't
necessarily understand.

But it's, it is, it's every,
again, everybody's different.

And when you talk about, It's a
great to start with the horses, which

talk about their identity and their
identities change from client to client.

They might be a girl, they might
be a boy, they might be a cat.

I mean, it can be whatever,
whatever needs to be.

So it's a good place to start
and it's a safer place to start.

You know, it's safer to talk about
them than it is to talk about yourself.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And I guess too, when you say that
you're dealing with male horses, because

you're dealing with, with geldings, not
with stallions exhibiting, you know.

Big Stanley behaviors.

But, and so I guess that's an
interesting, do you use that analogy?

Well, this is, this is, you couldn't
say that the horse is gender neutral

cause they're still male, but they
are, their gender has been modified.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That is
impacting their behavior.

Does that come up in conversation?

And if so, how?

Ellie Williams: Not, not specifically
because it, I try and try and leave

the educational part, that sort of
educational part out, because I want

to know more from what the clients.

observing and what, what they related to.

So for example, um, having a
conversation with a client about

what brought them into foster care
and the sexual assault by mom's

caramel, you know, that sort of thing.

And then the horse comes, it's,
it's around and they drop down

or so we're having conversations
with starting conversations.

And we have one little miniature
horse that came into our care

because of some serious abuse.

It was not sexual abuse, but
it's a good place to start.

It's a little bit safer.

We talk about You know, how he
is and what his life is like

now and how he might see things.

And he also says, he has tricks.

So he says yes and no, which is nice.

So depending on the age of the
child, that might come into play.

So yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: The work that you
do when you go out, okay, you, you,

how, how big of a team are you now?

You, you, you've got a
relatively compact herd.

You said two horses, a
couple of minis in it.

cat and a dog sort of thing.

But it sounds like you've
got a lot of clients.

And so who are your co workers?

How have you built your practice?

What does your practice look like?

And what do you find is an
optimal sort of a practice?

Ellie Williams: Yeah, we, we only have
a small farm, so we only have about

10 acres at the, at the main farm.

So that would be really
can't get much more.

We're getting a thoroughbred
actually next week, which is nice.

He's going to be off the track and
has a new, he'll have a new career.

Which will be very similar.

We're going to try and almost document
his, his journey, which will be nice.

We have two therapists on staff now,
which is fantastic because I, we had

multiple therapists and then COVID hit
and then I was the only therapist again.

We have about five equine
professionals, six if I count the

one in Maryland, which is nice.

So it's probably about a
staff of 10 altogether.

So it's still quite small.

Um, but it's This is a tricky
it's a tricky world to be in.

I mean, we're probably 1 of the only
facilities in the area that strictly.

It was mostly equine work.

I mean, I said I do
office work as well, but.

Primarily, I mean, I'll I'll.

Equine is in our name, so, so, yeah.

And when you're

Rupert Isaacson: doing office work, are
you, are you often bringing those people

into the equine work at some point?

Yeah, I mean,

Ellie Williams: some, it depends.

Like, I'll have some office sessions
and we have some cats and dogs.

We've had rabbits in the past.

So, you know, we're bringing, we
still have animals in session.

That just might be a little different.

And then I have a kid that has been doing
neurofeedback in an office session and

and she's like, can I, can we do horses?

I'd like to do some more stuff.

And I'm like, okay.

Rupert Isaacson: So how

Ellie Williams: does the

Rupert Isaacson: cat help?

Ellie Williams: I love the cat.

So our cat, his name is Mars and he has
his own, he grew up in a very violent, not

violent as in he was hurt, but it was sort
of lots of play fighting and aggression.

And so.

It's great in a way because a lot of the
kids that we have also grew up in that

environment and then when they interact,
they have to learn how to respect and.

relax and not hurt each other.

So it's, it's a win win when,
when Mars doesn't like bring

out his claws, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: So, yeah.

So how does, how does Mars help with that?

Ellie Williams: He does.

So it's nice because it's an education of
like, not only does it happen with people,

it can happen with animals, that, that
there can be some aggressive behaviors.

So Mars would, would

Rupert Isaacson: like hiss
and scratch and say, oy.

Yep.

Yep.

Ellie Williams: He likes his head
scratched, but if you touch his

back, which I'm sure has been an
area of unsafe for him, that yeah,

he'll, he'll say no, thank you.

And now he's, he's originally
he would like literally like

latch onto you and like bite you.

We would try really hard to not
have him sort of interact with the

clients because it wasn't safe.

But over time he's, yeah, becoming
really mellow and lovely and nibbles a

little bit, but not, not like he used to.

And it's a, it's a great
story for kids to see.

Even the cat can, can learn
how to do something different.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, yeah,
so I guess it makes an analogy.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And the
dogs, how do you use them?

Ellie Williams: Ah!

So we have a Corgi, her name is Tinka,
and she is the, the friendliest dog

ever, and she interacts, she does some
really nice like she'll push the bull

towards the client, she loves to play
really, she's very interactive, so

again, just like we would have with the
horses in session, very interactive.

And she genuinely just loves people.

So there's this happiness and
there's joy that she can bring

to session which is good as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Joy, I think is, is, is, is the key here.

I think if, if any of us were to really
try to define what it is we try to

do, it's that we try to bring joy.

Right.

I mean that we, you know, people
are, there is suffering and what

is the opposite of suffering?

Suffering, the opposite
of suffering is joy.

Ellie Williams: Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, I've observed,
I think, more times than I can count,

a dog often being really key with that.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

Because

Rupert Isaacson: they can access that,
like, so immediately despite whatever

other emotional stuff is going on.

They're like, I am going to
be joyful right now because

there's a ball in front of me.

And to sort of, as an analogy,
that, you know, that is possible.

You know, you can have stuff
going on in your life, but hey, if

someone chucks a ball, it's fun.

Yeah.

I think that's often
an underutilized tool.

Yeah.

The, the absolute commitment
to joyful mood that dogs

can, can have and can bring.

Okay.

Well, I think there's going to be people
that might want to get in touch with

you because you mentor people in how
to get going with this type of thing.

Absolutely.

People reach you, Ellie.

Ellie Williams: So, our website
is www e do equity team.org,

which is E-Q-U-I-T-E-A-M,

Rupert Isaacson: equity
team dot O-R-G-O-R-G.

Ellie Williams: Yep.

And that would basically give
you all the connections of what,

it'll give my number and email.

So website is the way to go.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And then just again, talk us through
one by one, each of those, these

modalities you're using, just so people
can write them down now at the end.

Ellie Williams: So we use the EGALA model,
which is the Equine Assisted Growth and

Learning Association Equine Therapy Model.

I'm a practitioner with Diadic
Developmental Psychotherapy.

Rupert Isaacson: DDP

Ellie Williams: and Huh?

Rupert Isaacson: D-D-P-D-D-P.

Ellie Williams: Yeah.

I am a practitioner for Horse Boy, and I
do neuro optimal neurofeedback training,

Rupert Isaacson: neuro optimal
neurofeedback, and people can

traps if you, if you're looking on.

Ellie's website, the equity team.

org.

There's a lot of
information on there on it.

And please do reach
out to her as a mentor.

I've watched over the years, Ellie bill.

And she was awesome.

I remember when we first met you,
but I've just seen you build it and

build it and build it and go from
strength to strength and survive

COVID and, you know, keep serving.

Ellie Williams: Right.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So hats off.

Ellie Williams: Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Easy ride.

I know.

Yeah.

If you had any advice, last words,
advice for someone who's just starting

out in this field, because I think
this is what people like me, I don't

feel like a veteran in the field.

I feel like the same, you know,
newcomer that I always was, but people

who've been at it for a while now,
what do you, what's your advice?

What's your, what would you
say to people now that want to

get into this professionally?

Ellie Williams: I think, I think to, to
more to simplify it is just don't give up,

you know, find your passion and connect
with people that can, if you don't know

it, connect with somebody that does.

Rupert Isaacson: Look for mentorship.

Ellie Williams: That's really important.

All

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Well, listen, Ellie, it's
been, it's been a delight.

Thank you so much for
coming and talking to us.

Ellie Williams: I know.

Rupert Isaacson: It's

Ellie Williams: been wonderful.

Thank you so much.

Oh, and

Rupert Isaacson: remind us again,
there's this DDP conference in

Nottingham in the UK, right?

Yes.

Ellie Williams: Yes.

And I think it's the 22nd
and 23rd of September.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So DDP conference,
people can type that in.

Ellie Williams: It's the,
hold on, 23rd and 24th.

It's the Monday and Tuesday.

Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: And
where in Nottingham is it?

Is it a college or something?

It's at

Ellie Williams: the conference centre.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Ellie Williams: East Midlands
Conference Centre, I think.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Well, we've got a hospital place
not far from there, so I'm going

to see if I can, if I can connect.

Ellie Williams: Yeah, brilliant.

It's going to be absolutely amazing.

It's going to be, I'm excited.

It's been a lot of thought and
effort going into it and the the

breakdown of all the presentations
that will be coming out shortly.

Rupert Isaacson: There's a lot
of people in the UK doing DDP.

Ellie Williams: Yes, huge
contingent in the UK.

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: I'm going
to look into this more.

Thank you for joining me on to it.

I had no idea.

That's why I do this so I can learn.

Yes.

Yeah.

Ellie Williams: Brilliant.

Thank you so much.

Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.

Ellie Williams: Fantastic
to catch up with you Ruth.

Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.

All right.

Well, I hope it won't be
too long before I see you.

thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

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