Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
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It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

I've got Emma Hutchinson and
Jay Hare from Horseback UK based

up in the wilds of Aberdeen.

They kind of do everything started with
the military, still working with the

military, but then transitioned also
into kids at risk youth all sorts of

programs and populations over the years.

And I would say that in terms of
mentorship for people that are looking,

particularly within the UK to get
involved in the equine assisted field,

horseback UK are really people to look
to because unlike many programs who

target very much one population set
or one type of therapeutic outcome,

horseback UK are unusually eclectic.

And yet they integrate the whole
thing in a really interesting way.

And of course they do this from a
rather wonderful fairytale location up

there in Fairytale Land, which is Aber.

Extremely beautiful.

So, can you guys introduce yourselves?

Tell us a little bit about
who you are and what you do.

Do you wanna kick off Jay?

Jay Hare: My name's Jay Ha.

Jason calls me Jay.

I'm the course director for Horseback uk.

Next month I'll have been at the charity
for 15 years after being seconded here

by the Marine Commandos, back when I went
through my rehabilitation and was healing

after injuries sustained in combat.

Rupert Isaacson: And what do you do now?

You say you are the, you are, you are
directing, but what does that mean?

Jay Hare: So, yeah, it's kind of a pop
title, really is it course director.

But I think what it entails is actually
helping and to design the programs and

the qualifications that we deliver here
as well as in part delivering them and

also working with our mentors so that
we give a good product, a good program,

a good outcome to whether it be our
youngsters, our military, our community

courses, or whoever it might be.

Some just kind of tweaking that constantly
and making sure it's all running well.

Like any good business, charity
organization, it should look

like a swan skimming across
the top of that lock or lake.

But underneath there's always legs
kicking, so we're making sure that each

one's working the way it should be.

Cool.

All right, Emma, tell us about you.

Emma Hutchison: So I'm Emma Hut.

The charity.

Charity.

So I I run the equine side of it, but
I also do the strategic and the, the

sort of the fundraising and the, the
desk is just piled high with paperwork,

with all sorts of stuff that you have
to have done to, to run a charity.

But fundamentally, as I say, my
passion has always been the horses.

And I am still fascinated.

We just started running the,
the programs again this year.

We have a couple of months where
we kind of try to get on top of

all the paperwork and everything.

And the last few weeks we've
gone back to running the courses.

The horses have had a few months off,
and they just amazed me about how it took

them a couple of days to get back into
it, but how they just slot back into it.

They know their jobs and they're just
funny old things that, you know, some

of them, like some people and some of
them don't like other people, and they

know what they want and they know how
to do their jobs, and it's just, just

me that they're, they're just amazing.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

So Jay I want to start with you.

I remember when I was visiting you guys
and we were doing various exercises

together in the arena, it took me a while
to realize that you had a prosthetic

leg, you were moving on it so naturally.

So, athletically.

And then at a certain point
I say, oh, hold on a second.

He's, he's on a prosthetic leg in a sand
arena, kind of jumping over poles and.

Blocks and things.

Emma Hutchison: Is that
when he took it off?

Rupert Isaacson: I think
he did take it off that.

So no, I think he took it off so he
could beat me over the head with it.

But the injuries that you sustained
you, you were a marine commando.

Tell us about the, your life prior to
that, your life during the process of

being injured, if you like, your recovery.

How did horses come into this?

Why and why did it make you feel
that you wanted to do this as a

calling, as a, as a vocation really.

Jay Hare: So yeah.

Okay.

Very quickly, I suppose.

I was born in, born in Greece.

We came over to Wales and
I was brought up there.

I spent a lot of time in North
Wales and there has always been a

horsemanship connection in my family.

Normally with my grandfathers.

So I agree with some people.

They say sometimes it
can skip a generation.

So maybe it hit me.

I had an interest, whether I was
trying to, you know, pat one in a

field or something, or, or asking
can I ride one, can I ride one?

So I did at an early age, go for very
basic riding lessons and going on to, you

know, trek centers and things like that.

And then I forgot about it, completely
went to college, studied engineering.

Always wanted to join the
senior service, the Royal Navy.

And one day I went to a careers
fair and met this six foot four

big bloke with a Green Beret.

And I said, who are you guys?

And I said, well, we're part of the
Royal Navy, but with a, with the

elite soldiers of the Royal Navy,
with the Royal Marines commandos.

So I dug a little further, you
know, asked some questions and I

thought, yeah, that's, that's me.

I'm out playing rugby.

I'm getting dragged
down by the gamekeeper.

I'm probably in a bit too much
trouble at that early tentative age.

And I thought, yeah, as soon as
I finish and I'm, I'm gonna go

off and join the Royal Marines.

And I did, at 19 years of age, I joined
at the 11th of September, 2000, passed

out an original, there's a high attrition
rate in what's called the highest and

hardest basically basic infant in the.

So about 40 of us started 11 of
us, seven to 11 of us trying to

remember the numbers passed out.

Original.

That's without injury, that's without
being back to or sent back at class.

And I headed up to Scotland to
four five Commander conducting

some, you know, guard duties.

And basically went back from
guard, gee, one evening to see

planes flying into buildings.

I said to the guys in the room, I
said, what, what film we watching?

They said, no, Jay, this
happening real time.

This is a terrorist attack.

And from there, that changed the
whole landscape of, of combat for us.

We were the original troops asked
to go out to head into the hills.

That's our specialization in
four, five Commander to go into

the mountains and arctic regions.

So we requested and off we headed.

Subsequently I did three tours.

I was injured twice.

Once by a suicide bomber
on my second tour.

And I got fit, healed, recovered,
led a team again on my third tour,

and unfortunately stepped on an
improvised explosive device that

blew my last leg off below knee.

So it was an amputee in the armed
forces that's called a scratch.

'Cause it's not through
knee or above knee.

So that's maybe why I can maneuver
a little better than the average

person's, you know, higher amputation.

I lost digits to my right,
lost right arm, right leg.

But I.

Onto the radio to call some things in.

And I, I lost my facial identity.

My face was blown off and a degloved.

So over the next few years, that was
the 5th of November of all dates to

play around with fireworks and bombs.

It had absolute to be the 5th of November.

It took me about six years to
get my you know, the surgery.

I had about 11, at least 11 surgeries
to rebuild my face from using bits

of my forehead, rib cartilage from
my ears and all sorts of stuff.

So, yeah that took some time.

And in that time I needed
something to occupy myself.

I was a young guy, you know,
you're 27, 28 years of age, you've

got a family, young family, but
you've still got that adrenaline.

You've still got those ghosts
from being on previous tours and

you're worried about your future.

But mostly you're trying to sort your
head out whilst you're trying to sort

your body out and necess, you can't
necessarily do that at the same time.

So there is a time for each of those.

I found out about Horseback uk.

I found there was a, a former Royal
Marines officer and his wife, who was

a police officer working with horses
up in the Highlands of Scotland.

They approached the commando
unit and said, well, maybe the

guys wanna try some horsemanship.

At end of the, the horses got
four legs and I've got one.

I thought, well, that, that makes sense.

There's a bit of, you know, mobility
with dignity and it's Western, so

it's that kind of iconic cowboy
imagery that it conjures up.

And I thought, yeah, let's
go, let's go take a look.

And as soon as I got here,
it was under my skin.

I loved being around the horses.

I loved especially riding the
horses, but I found that there

was more of a relationship working
with the horses on the ground, that

they were kind of flight animals.

They wanted to run away
very much like I did.

I needed to find my herd,
horses needed to be in a herd.

So eventually I came back
to mine and that's me.

Yeah.

15 years now.

So I've never left.

They can't get rid of me.

Rupert Isaacson: It, well, one of
the things which I was really struck

by when I was up with you all was
it really did feel like a family.

And obviously, you know,
Emma, it is a family.

I mean, it's you, your husband,
your daughters are involved.

They're great horse women as well.

So like anything that's led from a
family from the inside this sort of

brings a lot of love and functionality
and multi role, you know, cross

fertilization into the thing, but.

Sometimes things that are very family
run like that, it can feel that

one's a little bit on the outside,
you know, from that core group.

And it was very, very noticeable.

I think Jay, from what
you're saying now, yeah.

It makes a lot of sense that there's
this, it was, it was like sort of yeah.

Clan headquarters and you're sort of
part of the clan and part of the family.

And I, I could see how your horses
as well responded in this way.

That the whole, the, the, the,
the horse herd and the human herd

were unusually well integrated.

And I was thinking, you know, why
is this, is this partly because

they're not less like a riding
school where they all go off, you

know, back to their suburban lives.

Oh, this is sort of up in Scotland.

Everyone's living there, sort of to some
degree in this slightly wilder place.

Is it, is it that, is it,
you know, whatever it is,

there's a special magic here.

So Jay, talk to us about this
healing process of trying to find

your identity to lose your face.

That's huge.

And I think that's something which
very, we, we can try to imagine

it, but we can't imagine it.

Talk to us about that process of
that loss of identity and how that's

informed the work that you do.

Jay Hare: So the, yeah.

There.

So you, you kind of,
you're a marine commando.

One minute.

You think you're the steely eye dealer
of death that, you know, heads out and

does the nitty gritty stuff that used to
seeing war films and reading comic books.

You look like your father.

You think yourself rather
handsome in your uniform.

And the next thing you have
gotta stick on those a false eye.

And you can't quite smile
properly because you know the

scarring and things like that.

You don't wanna look at yourself in the
mirror 'cause it reminds you every day.

You kind of look into your partner
and your wife and stuff and going,

oh my God, this is not the person
that you walk down the aisle with.

You are walking down the street and you're
worried that your nose is gonna fall off

at any moment, different times of year.

I was born in Greece, so I can really
easily, so I'd have to change from

my winter nose to my summer nose,
and then from my summer nose to

my winter nose, you had to super
glue it on when it was hot weather.

I used to make a joke that I'd go for
lunch with some pals and you know, if I

sneezed my eye would go into your salad.

My nose would go into your pint.

My leg had fall off.

So the lad and the lads nicknamed me Mr.

Potato at one point, which so
with that, you know, working with

horses, they don't judge you.

They judge how you are
with them in that moment.

They don't care about looks, they
don't care about degrees, they

don't care about the car that you
drove up in, on the motorbike.

You just hopped off, whatever it might be.

They want to be with you in the moment.

And that gave me that time to, to assess
what I was gonna do and think about my

own behaviors and who I was becoming and
who I wanted to become and who I had been.

So yeah, it could be a little bit
forward, a little bit ambitious,

a little bit strong, a little bit
too full on that doesn't work with

the horse, but I can't be passive.

I can't let them walk all over me
because then they'll try and take charge.

So again, it's trying to find that
balance and that for me is what I found.

Yeah.

Riding, looking like a cowboy, heading
out to the states and all the stuff that

I did after all spec, archery, fantastic.

But it was actually finding
out who I was and where I kind

of fit in into this third.

And I.

That fascinated me.

So the more I read, the more books I
looked at, and Emma was constantly feeding

me, read this, read that Jo, same word.

Have you seen this YouTube documentary?

Have you seen this?

Have you seen that?

And I started to think, yeah, there is.

I believe in what Winston Church said.

There is something about the outside
of a horse that's good, the inside

of a man or a woman, obviously.

But you know, Winston Churchill, right
or wrong or whatever politics, I felt of

him as a very strong leader, a powerful
man that suffered with the black dog.

When that darkness comes, when you
suffer some of the kind of traumas

that have been through your life
and you try and comprehend what's

happening, working with a horse enabled
me to do that and not clock watch.

It wasn't being with a counselor that
say, right, you've got an hour with us

off you go, tell me how you're feeling.

Can you watch a war film?

Can you listen to music,
watch your love life?

Like, no, I don't.

I wasn't interested

in

Jay Hare: that, any of that.

I just wanted to work with
the horse on the ground and

find out what made them tick.

How you could train with them, how
you could communicate with them.

And people used to say, you know,
do you go and see a a, do you go and

see a, a therapist or a counselor?

And I said, yeah, I do.

And I'll tell you how meant to pay them.

And they, oh, it

thousands.

And that me started that, that
beautiful journey, that on

which is helping.

Rupert Isaacson: When you are, when you're
dealing with that loss of identity it's

obviously gonna give you a lot of empathy.

And I presume that a lot of the people
that come to you as clients must

be wrestling with similar dilemmas.

Are you working with populations that have
also been physically maimed in that way?

And then also when you're dealing with
say, youth at risk youth or troubled

youth who are going through identity
crises in a different way, but of

course have not yet seen the face of
suffering in the way that you have.

How do you walk that line between

thinking, you know, you, you don't
know what suffering is, you don't

know what loss of identity is?

I do.

And also, yeah, but at the same time,
everyone experiences it in their way and

just because they haven't experienced it
in the way that you have, which is so raw

and so extreme, doesn't mean of course,
that the way in which they're experiencing

is not driving them towards maybe
some negative outcomes in their life.

Talk to me about how you walk
that dance and with helping others

there, because what you've gone
through, you, you, you, you could.

Be forgiven for almost going down a bit
of a bitter path and saying, well, you

guys, no one can understand, you know,
the extent of what I've gone through.

And, and you'd be absolutely right.

People couldn't, and at the same time,
you can use this as an empathetic tool.

Talk to me about that and talk to me about
how the horses have helped you to make

it a tool rather than a, a hindrance.

Jay Hare: I think working with our
military veterans, if we go into those

first and I'll talk about the youngsters,
is it's a lot easier for me because if

I wear shorts or you take a look at me,
you sort of go, right, he's either been

in a bad accident and then you find out
it's military and you go, oh, right.

That must been time and service.

So it's like, okay, that's fine.

Yeah.

We get it.

Right.

There's a respect that comes with it.

Respect that comes to that,
because you can see Yeah.

This guy as a battle, et cetera.

Yes.

I totally empathize with guys
and girls that don't have the

scars because they're internal.

Mm-hmm.

So as much as you have to deal with
your physical trauma, along comes the

mental trauma to try and adjust to life.

Try not to be bitter.

The outward looking,

I the.

Think is such thing as can't,
don't tell me I can't jump over

those horse hurdles with you.

I will do it.

I might have to take a break, take
leg off, readjust to run back again,

but I'm still gonna do it with you.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jay Hare: That's maybe the way
I was brought up with a military

kind of family and grounding.

Definitely for the training I received,
but also the way I like to lead my life.

I like to remind our military community
of who they are through the horses

because they're resilient creatures.

They don't

Jay Hare: sit and feel
sorry for themselves.

And then with the youngsters is,
is adding those layers and saying,

yeah, this might have happened to me.

I'll tell you why.

It's okay to ask a question
point and gossip in the corner.

If you wanna know, I will be open and
honest with you as I possibly can.

Don't ask me about the question of how
many times I've I pulled the trigger

and how many, all that sort of stuff.

Those are questions you don't ask a
serviceman, but if you wanna know what

pain I went through, how I dealt with it,
what I felt about myself, I'll explain

it because we can talk about this.

I hope it never happens to you
in your life, but life is life.

So things might have happened to
you in the past, the way you've been

brought up, the way you've been.

Let's try and build more layers to
that onion to build a little bit of

arm, a little bit of strength to you,
some inner strength whilst keeping

that empathy and being able to still
love life and love other people.

And through the horses you can
do that with the youngster.

They can start to show empathy towards
another creature, another being.

Then you are winning and that assists
the school and that assists the

counselors and that assists their growth.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I should imagine
too that because you do carry the scars

of battle, it is got to help people who
are much younger than that looking out at

their lives with some perspective to say,
okay, wow, I see that this can happen.

Okay, this has happened to
this guy and yet he seems he's

here in a position to help me.

This must give quite a gift, I
would think, to some of those

kids who are already facing a
certain amount of hopelessness.

Even if it's only perceived
hopelessness to them, it feels real.

Do they ever say that to you?

Do they say Yeah.

You know, being with you, looking at
you sit hearing about your experiences?

This puts my world into perspective.

What sort of feedback do you get?

Jay Hare: I start off with, with
getting a lot more girls through

than we do boys at the moment, but
it's always, I've got this problem.

I've been pigeonholed with this,
but they wouldn't say that.

So they'll say things like, I've
got a adhd, medicated, and I'm told

I'm useless and I can't do anything
and I'll never become anything.

And I go, really?

You've got a super power.

You have got this ability to think
a hundred miles an hour of a hundred

different problems and solutions and
come up with them whilst people are still

just getting out the seats to put the
jacket on and go deal with one of them.

Now we can sit here all day and talk
about the issues and the problems,

or we can go and find that light
bulb moment for you because I've got

a DHD, so is this team member, so
that team member, in fact they've

got a bit of this and a bit of that.

So let's go and be those adventures.

Let's go and find what it is
that really makes us tick.

And we can do that through the, through
working with the horses on the ground and

then up to the level of where they'll be
able to sit on them, if that's depending

on the course and what we're doing.

Does my experiences make a difference?

Yeah, possibly because it's visual.

Mm-hmm.

Jay Hare: It's that ability to say
to a youngster, yeah, this happens,

but it, it doesn't define you.

It can just make you stronger.

And I.

Probably isn't, might be
midweek, it might be into the

second phase of the second week.

It might be into the 12th of development
program takes go, you know what

I've wanted ask you this question.

Or it could be 3, 4, 5 years later,
whether had this where I youngster, he

served coffee at all places, take up range
with my, and this tall came up to me.

He wasn't tall when I first him, he of
the group and he said said, how you doing?

See you?

And it was on the tip of my tongue.

I was yeah, I knew I'd worked with him.

I remembered which group, but
I couldn't remember his name.

And I was, yeah mate, I'm doing well.

I'm doing well.

Whatcha up to, oh well I'm working here.

And he got called away after
dropping off the coffees and

you know,

Jay Hare: cakes and stuff.

And I went back and I
said, Liam, how you doing?

Good to see you.

How you doing buddy?

And he says, I'm doing well.

I've got this job.

I've got another job and I'm
working jobs at the weekend.

I'm gonna study psychology in Edinburgh,
but I'm gonna take a year out and I'm

gonna go and travel around South America.

I went, oh my goodness.

You were what was described to me as
a youngster who was disengaged from.

I was called something, it was a lot rude.

When I was in school, I was
called, but I shook it down.

I gave a, I said, I'm so proud of you.

Absolutely brilliant.

That's, that's, that's a success story.

That's amazing.

And he said, I want to study psychology.

'cause I wanna be able
to help people like uj.

I'm not a psychologist,
I'm not a counselor.

I'm just someone trying to do
something good and have found horses

is the great way of doing that.

But I inspired a youngster to go
into that world and yeah, I'll

tell you what, I'll be honest.

Yeah.

Someone peeling onions there
and it got a bit as I left.

And I,

and I hear a lot of success stories.

You're not gonna hit on point every time.

Some you just can't help.

And some go along a different track.

They take a different route.

But when I hear stories like that,
I know I'm doing something right.

I know that we are doing something
right and I know that horses are

working because it just gives people
that ability to think outside the box.

When you're doing equine
assisted services,

Rupert Isaacson: when you say to
them let's go on an adventure.

Talk us through what some of
those adventures look like.

And you also said that some of the work
can be mounted, which I love because as

you know, with Horse Boy Method, we do a
lot of mounted work, but within the equine

assisted world, it's often not mounted.

So I'm intrigued by that.

Talk us through what these
adventures might be and what

Yeah, just talk us through it.

Jay Hare: So some of the basic ones are
actually being out in the fresh air.

Realizing your outdoors, looking at
nature, starting to look at the world

around you and being aware of it, being
able to touch it, feel it, get amongst it.

Be within it alongside the horse.

And noticing subtle little things like
behaviors, like, eye contact, that

pressure that can come from eye contact.

That that ability to
communicate without speaking.

You know, how do we do that?

How do we pick up on the
energy of each other?

I had a we're running
a course at the moment.

As a young girl, she gets
quite angry about things that

she gets confused with stuff.

And today I said to her, look, I
can feel the anger coming off you.

I can feel your frustration.

What's going on?

And she told me, and I said, do you feel
that with a horse when you get frustrated

because a horse can pick that up from you?

I didn't realize I gave that off.

And I said to some people,
you do, you give that off.

It's not forging her arms and sulking.

It's just this energy you give
off and the horse pick up on that.

So that starts with that kind of a little
adventure, but talking about ourselves,

which, which one of the horses are we,
Ann is really good at pairing you up with.

Personality to, I don't
know, what would you call it?

Your ality?

Mm.

It needs to be opposite
or are they the same?

Sometimes they can be
opposite in their characters.

And on the spectrum of, of who they are.

But then also we've seen horses that
just join with someone who's maybe

on the autistic spectrum and it,
the horse just goes to them and all

of a sudden they're partnered up.

And we've seen that twice this week
of horses we didn't think would wanna

work anywhere near some of these kids.

And they were like, no, we love them.

This is who we want.

We love them.

So that's an adventure.

Yes.

They can take them out with the horses.

We can go and do bushcraft.

We can ride out, we can
do camp outs and things.

Just something, it's almost like you
said to us, Rupert, that you follow

the kid and go with them and take the
horse because that's the kind of conduit

that's the bridge a lot of times.

So we have lesson plans, we have
learning outcomes, objectives,

qualifications, all that sort of stuff.

But sometimes, and we've had it this week
and we had it today, do you know what

change to what we were gonna do Today
is gonna happen tomorrow or it's gonna

happen Friday today we are doing this.

We're changing it.

We tell them, we explain that to them, you
see a sigh of relief and they go, yeah,

that's exactly what we wanna do today.

Again, you're picking up on that energy
from the youngster and you're picking

up that energy from the horse and
you're mixing it together and going,

right, let's get the best outcome.

So whatever adventure it
is, use your imagination.

Go out there, have fun,
try different things.

And that's exactly the conversation
we had when you came up to visitors

and I went, yeah, I get this guy.

I totally understand it.

That's the way I'm,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, when people
think of Bitcoin assisted world, I

think they often think about people
working in arenas in a very, kind

of fairly controlled sort of a way.

You're out there, you've also,
you've got a lovely indoor arena.

You've got lovely round pen and outside
arenas too, but you also have the forest

and the open hill and you know, not
every, not every equine assisted place

of course, has that kind of access.

But there are some I've seen
that do that don't quite use it.

And I'm always like, oh man.

But that's kind of where the magic is.

It's, it's out there in nature.

You, you mentioned going out and
even camping out with horses.

Paint a picture for us
about how that can look.

What, how, how might you organize that?

What kind of people might you take on
that and, and how might that play out?

Jay Hare: So we've changed
various different programs and.

We have one that is a personal
development three phase program.

So each phase being a week
long, it's residential.

And that culminates in a final exercise
where we take the horses out into,

you know, the Highlands of Scotland.

We used to ride them out
and then we camp out.

We had the horses out.

Depending on the time of year, you
can have problems with kind of,

you know,

You know,

Jay Hare: Mid high and,
and all sorts of stuff.

So we've gotta be careful with that.

Or we can bring the horses back in Yeah.

From that and leave our
guys out on the ground.

So now I think looking at the kind
of wellbeing courses that we're doing

is actually walking out to get the
horse, spending time out in the field

looking at herd behavior, which talk
to you about, she takes that part.

Yeah.

And understanding who we are, where
we sit in the herd, what type of horse

do we, what type of personality have
we got at all times being outdoors.

And the more outdoors
we can be, the better.

So sometimes it might be as simple
as just standing outside and just,

you know, doing some breath work,
maybe alongside the horses, trying

to mirror the horses, inhale and
exhale with ourselves, trying to work

out our heartbeat the same as them.

Those are the kind of.

Out a little bit more on other
programs, we can make them more complex.

And we, as I say, we are lucky here.

We we're in the Highlands of Scotland.

We suffer some heavy winters.

We're just coming out kind of one now.

I'd say that was too heavy.

But the springs here, we're
starting to get that energy.

The horses are getting lively again.

Yes.

Let's, let's start having
some adventures again.

What that looks like depends on the group,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

You mentioned Bush bushcraft.

Of course.

That's dear to my heart.

You know, having lived with hunters and
gatherers, and I, I know very much the

healing power of touching, sleeping,
being, working with nature in that

intimate way that our DNA wants, because
that's who we are, we're organisms.

Again, this isn't something that's
often integrated into equine assisted

stuff, so I'm intrigued about talk,
talk to me about the bushcraft that

you do and, and some of the changes
that you see with people with that.

Jay Hare: The bushcraft is,

again, getting us outdoors.

It's something that we brought
into the course you know, many,

many moons ago, various experts,
professionals coming into help with,

with training and things like that.

It, it keeps you, if you,
if you've got a deficit.

For instance, it is a fantastic way of
doing so many different lessons and moving

around in that, that classroom because
it is a classroom and if it's underneath

an old drops parachute with a fire going
and you dunno, you're talking about

how to build shelters or you're talking
about plan N in your survival situation.

Or if you're simply ma making string
the bows and arrows out of nettles to

you know, different forms of making
a fight, you can switch and you can

pick up on the energy of that group.

Go, okay, we're losing a bit here,
let's put that to the side and

let's move on to something else.

Or maybe that particular group
is into that particular lesson.

Okay, I can take the group and I can split
the group and mix it up a little bit.

So there's so many dynamics to do
in bushcraft, but it's, it's earthy,

it's salty, it's getting your
hands dirty, it's being in nature.

It's noticing things.

It's learning things.

It's not a classroom environment yet.

It's the best classroom to be in.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what
sort of changes have you seen?

Everyone's got, you know, their stories.

What stories spring to mind
for you of transformations

you've seen using bushcraft?

Jay Hare: I think kind
of attention to detail.

When they start to notice things
and they start to learn a little

bit how they then, how they then
become the teacher to the others.

And that is fascinating because, you
know, they're learning when they're

starting to teach what they've
learned to other people, right.

Which ingrained in that, in that
that kind of psyche with them.

So, yeah.

I, I love it when a teacher or
staff member comes up and they've

been trying for ages to talk about
biology and photosynthesis and, you

know, whatever it might be, how a
tree grows and things and how roots

work and how fungi works, et cetera.

And the biology teacher comes up
that they've not maybe jelled with

and they've had a bit of abrasion,
they've rubbed up against each other.

All of a sudden the youngsters sitting
there going, and this is how this works.

This is how that is.

And this is called a so and
so, and this is a tree and

this oak tree and this is this.

And the teacher's just kind of, okay,
that's amazing because few weeks

ago I was trying to get this to you.

Now I've got somewhere to go.

Now I can pass on that little bit of
knowledge because we've got a commonality,

we've got an interest together.

And that has repaired so many
relationships with working with

these schools and organizations.

I think that's, that's just golden.

That's ace.

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

I mean, it's, it's, I know this
is what you do every day, but it's

cutting edge work and it's so much
more rich and layered than simply

going into an arena with a horse.

Not that that's not a wonderful
thing to do, but you guys take it to

a level that I am unused to seeing.

And it's, it's, it's extremely impressive.

Jay.

Alright, I want to ask Emma
some questions now, Emma.

How, why did you start this
whole thing in the first place?

Like, you must be mad.

Why, why would you, why, why would
anybody start an equine thing, let

alone in Northern Scotland where the
weather is brutal and, sorry mate.

Are you alright, ed?

Yeah.

So Jay has to leave right now, listeners,
so if you've got any other questions for

him, just email us and we'll we'll pass
them on and we'll get answers from you.

Jay, thank you so much.

It was an honor.

All right.

Cheers, ma'am.

Okay,

Emma Hutchison: so the
whole thing started.

We moved to the property that
we're at now 16 years ago.

And the idea was, is that we would be
here and we were going to breed port

horses and we were gonna take people out
in Western to the beautiful side hills.

And that was the idea.

And then we'd been here for, so.

And moved here in the November, in
the December we had some friends come

around and quite a few of them had
come back from Afghanistan at the time,

and they were, they were not in a good
place either physically or mentally.

And we sat around a big bonfire.

And then during the days, we, at the time
we had I had a horse, jock had a horse,

and the, the girls had a couple of ponies.

And these guys, we just
interacted with the horses.

We were just outside and one of the
guys said, this is what we need to do.

This is how guys need to decompress
after they've been to war.

This has been a real kind of breath
of fresh air for me, and this is

what I, fresh, I absolutely needed.

So that was really the start of it.

And of course we thought, you know,
I'm quite enthusiastic about things,

stocks extremely enthusiastic about
most things, and we just said, right,

well, we're gonna do something.

And it was 2008 it was the height of
Afghanistan and it was when we were, we

were all watching the news and seeing
the coffins come back and it, you know,

it was, it was a pretty horrific time.

So Jock approached four five Commando,
which is in our growth, just over the

hill, about an hour and a half away, and
went to the CO there and said, look, you

know, we've got this property, we've got
some horses, we've got a bit of a rundown.

The who have been injured.

The co sent their injured troop.

So there was a

Rupert Isaacson: co being
commanding officer for those

who are not British, right?

Yeah.

Or,

Emma Hutchison: Sent their injured
troop, which was called Harden Troop.

And there must have been probably
about 20 guys came up for the day

of, which Jay was one of them.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emma Hutchison: And these guys
all had, they were all young.

They all had life-changing injuries.

So you're talking, so Jay had
one leg, we had a triple amputee.

We had, you know, an 18-year-old.

It, it was, it was life-changing
for us to see it, to actually

to to be there and hands-on with
these guys and hear the stories.

It was we both felt that
we had to do something.

We didn't know what it was that we
wanted to do or what we could do.

But we, we knew that we
wanted to do something.

So we are in Aberdeenship.

We have Aberdeen City about 30 miles away.

Obviously Aberdeen is the
oil place of the, the uk.

And so we went and approached some
of the oil companies and said,

look, you know, would you like
to be involved in this project?

And they, of course, they
said, well, what project?

You don't have a project.

So, we had to then go through the
process of saying, well, what is it?

And it just evolved from that really.

And as I say, then Jay came
up with several of the other

guys and it has just evolved.

And we got more horses and we got more
people, and then more people got involved.

And once you get onto that rollercoaster,
there was no getting off really.

And the, the, I mean, my
children at the time were three,

five and seven or something.

So they were involved
right from the start.

We had no facilities outside.

So the kitchen was our kitchen.

The toilet was our toilet.

The fridge was our fridge.

The, the kids' lunch and dinner
frequently went missing because it

was eaten by the course attendees.

And so it was, it was quite challenging
to start with, but we eventually

managed to get some traction.

Some people heard about
what we were doing.

The British military at the time crawled
all over us because we were looking

after their injured, still serving guys.

So we had to every risk
assessment, everything was just,

you know, how are you doing this?

How are you looking after them?

You better make sure that you
are not damaging them further.

And there had been some incidents
in other places where people had

been on horses and fallen off
and, you know, been more damaged.

So, yeah, everything was.

Massively sort of overkill to, to make
sure that we protected these guys.

And so we were one of the only
places where serving guys, serving

injured guys were being sent

Rupert Isaacson: forward.

Well, that, that was gonna be my question
when you said that Jay and the others who

came up, you know, had these life-changing
injuries, and I assumed clearly wrongly

that when you had injuries like that,
you would be automatically discharged.

Yet you said they were still serving.

So what capacities were they serving in
and was the idea that they would then stay

in the military or transition out of it?

What, talk us through, because
I'm, I'm not familiar with that.

With that sort of infrastructure at
all, I, I, I've worked, we work with

a lot of veterans, obviously, in our
organization, but by the time we meet

them, they're veterans or we meet
with people who are still serving,

like we work with the German army
but they're not necessarily injured.

And so they're sort of
in between deployments.

So that seems to me a really
interesting gray area.

If someone has a life-changing
industry in injury, but is still

serving, how, how does that look?

Where, where would you guys fit
in with that, with your service?

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Emma Hutchison: So, at the time, so again.

These guys, it was unknown.

Nobody really knew what was happening.

All they knew that they were sending
more guys out and more guys were coming

back with these horrific injuries.

So at the time, Jay was told,
don't worry, we'll look after you.

You'll always have a job.

Don't worry about it.

Because of course they didn't
wanna pile any further stress.

They've all had these, they
all, a lot of these guys thought

they were Korea military guys.

They were going to be in the
military for their career.

And suddenly this career
has been cut short.

They didn't know what,
what they were gonna do.

How are they going to finance their,
their families and all this sort of stuff.

So, the, the military said, don't worry.

We will, we will keep you in.

The reality of that was two or
two or three leaders down the

line, that's not gonna happen.

So they were told, well, you,
you do have to transition out.

There were various sort of funds
available, transition funds to help

guys, but ultimately the ones that who
were, were no longer physically able to

do their job, had to leave the military.

So it was a big change because
I say I, I think a lot of these

guys were left very angry.

It wasn't a decision that they had made.

They didn't want to leave the military.

And they were forced to.

And as it stands now, we still
work with serving military guys.

And they have there are kind of recovery
offices within regimens and stuff.

So if somebody is either has a.

Or more often now is, is suffering
from sort of mental health issues.

Then they have recovery officers
within their, those departments

and they will work with them.

And those recovery officers are
quite good now at looking out with

and pointing serving personnel
to programs like ourselves.

Or there's, there's some sailing programs
or there's yoga retreats or, so they

have got, over the last 15 years got
so much better about using these more

holistic wellbeing programs for them.

Rupert Isaacson: But you are dealing
with people who are, as you say, in this

transition obviously you are dealing
with serving military as well, but when,

when people are in this situation where
a change is being forced upon them and

they're wondering like, Jay was what's
going to be my place in the world?

Mm-hmm.

Now Jay was lucky of course that he
knew that when he met you all, that

was gonna be a vocational step for him.

Do you get other military who then
want to come and work with you?

Have you then added them to your team
and what do you, you obviously you

can't do that with everyone, so what.

Do you guys do in terms of helping
people to look to the next stages?

Emma Hutchison: I think so.

So when the guys who are serving come
to us, they're either transitioning

out or they are trying to get
themselves well enough to stay in.

Now a lot of them will come here thinking
that they want to stay in because that's

all they know and they're terrified
of going out into the civilian world.

And then when they come here and they
meet some of the staff, hear some of the

stories meet our mentors because we have
mentors on our military programs, have

been through the whole process themselves.

And we just kind of talk about these guys.

They've all got amazing transferable
skills that they don't understand.

They don't realize what they're capable,
what they've learned to, you know, some of

these, the submariners, for example, are
crazy what they, engineering wise, they

know, and yet they think, oh, but how am
I gonna get a job in the outside world?

Well, of course you are your
highly intelligent, super talented,

got all these qualifications.

Of course you're gonna get a job.

You just have to have that confidence
to go out there and sell yourself.

And that's what these
guys are not good at.

They don't the ones coming
to us generally, it's

confidence, it's self-esteem.

It's, it's, it's those kind of issues
that they just need to be, we kind of

say that coming here is a reset button.

And if by coming to us for a week
just allows them to, to put their

life on hold and stop all, everything
that is spiraling outta control.

The fact that they are in a recovery
program that they have been flagged

up by a recovery officer, that people
do know that they've got mental health

issues and they're still serving, that
in itself is a whole kind of issue.

So come here, press that stop
button and don't think about that.

Just be with these, these other people
who are going through the same thing.

Everybody, again, you kind of sit
around the table and as Jay sort of

touched on with a physical injury,
it's very easy for people to say, oh,

I understand why you are here because
you know, you're, you're missing an arm

or you're missing a leg, or whatever.

It's, but when they sit around the table
and say, I dunno, I, I don't, I'm, I

dunno if I'm allowed to be here because
I've just got PTD or I've only got this.

And within 24 hours they stay
at a house because our military

program is a residential program.

They stay at the house and they,
they, part of the whole thing is that

they have to cook meals together.

And they have to say,
right, who's gonna cook?

Who's gonna do the dishes,
who's gonna clean up?

And these conversations are led
by our mentors and they just

start to find out, well actually.

I'm, this happened to me.

Oh, enough, same thing.

Something similar happened
to that person over there.

So they are able to then, because
it's, for some reason they can't talk

to families and friends about it.

Military, they're a funny bunch.

They, they just, you know, they keep
together, they keep closed up, but they

can talk to each other about stuff that
they can't, us civilians and outsiders.

So the, so the military programs
is residential because they

come from the whole of the uk.

So it had to be residential.

It includes the horses,
which they do in the morning.

It includes the other things.

So the bushcraft, the photography, the
breath work, the archery, the Pilates.

It includes all of those other activities
that we do in the afternoon because we

have to do something in the afternoon
because they can't work with the horses

all day and they can't go home because
they've come from Devon or whatever.

So that's why we, we started off
doing these other activities.

And then what we found is that in actual
fact, somebody does Pilates for the

first time and then says, my goodness,
I'm gonna do this when I go home.

So you've given them something that
they can then take home because

we can't give them a horse to take
home, but they can take breath work

or the archery or whatever it is,
and go, actually I'm try do that.

So.

Evening, sitting around the campfire,
talking to each other, cooking

food together, opening up, having
the conversations and laughing.

And the difference between when
these people arrive on the Monday

with their kind of shoulders
down and their no eye contact.

And,

and then by Wednesday the shoulders have
started to lift the, you start to get

the eye contact and then the whole yard
turns into this before and swearing and

banter and, you know, the, the competition
between the Army guys and the Marines

and the Navy and difference between
the tri services and things like that.

It, it's just phenomenal.

But as I say, it's a combination
of, of all of the stuff that

goes into this course that works.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm
intrigued that you use photography.

Mm.

How did that evolve and what,
what do you observe that giving?

Emma Hutchison: If I'm honest, we were
just looking for another activity.

Mm.

And we happened to have somebody
that was very good at photography

and we've all got these phones.

Yeah.

Nobody knows.

And they've all got these amazing
cameras in them and nobody knows

you take a photograph, nobody
edits them or does anything.

I was completely unaware of all the
things that I've got on my phone that

I can do to improve the photographs.

And so we literally had somebody
come and teach us our staff and run

some sessions with the courses and
it was an absolute game changer.

And some of the photographs

phenomenal.

So something.

But has actually become quite
a popular other activity.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, the reason
why that really intrigues me and as

you know, like with movement method,
we have that, you know, as well as

horse by method and ta So we're always
saying, don't just do horse stuff.

It's not enough.

You know, you've gotta, as you say,
send people home with other things.

The photography that you're
talking about intrigues me because

I can see how that's hunting.

Its stealth and capture,
it's also perspective taking.

You know, you have to look from outside
the situation into the situation.

It's also changing the situation because
you can take an image and that image

can also be emotional, internal, right?

And then you can rewrite it.

You can say, well actually no, I, I
think I'd like to edit that outcome.

And I think there's a subliminal message
that can come with that, which is to

say you can actually reedit your past.

You, you, you don't have
to say, this is my story.

If it's no longer serving you or if
it's too painful, you, you can work

with that story and you can rewrite that
story and you can affect that story.

And you, you can turn out 25
versions of that story with, you

know, through different filters, all
of which serve different purposes.

And I can, I could see how
even if you didn't make it.

Explicit in the language when you
were talking through the photography

skills, how that could come across.

So when you said photography,
my ears pricked up.

I was like, Ooh, I think I've
gotta nick that for our program.

Thanks Emma.

Because it's

Emma Hutchison: really simple because
you just go to wherever and we do, we

take them into the woods or we take them
down to the, the stream or something

and just say, well, what do you see?

And they, everybody sees different
things and you'll get, some of them

will be lying on the ground, taking
a photograph of a stone or a leaf.

Somebody else is talk, reaching up as tall
as they can to take things in the trees.

Or somebody's seen a rabbit
or a stone or whatever it is.

Everybody sees the same thing differently.

And so you come back with all these
amazing photographs from literally

just standing in a small area.

Rupert Isaacson: Have you,
have you collected some of

these photographs together?

Do you publish any of them
or exhibit any of them?

Emma Hutchison: Our to-do thing,
we keep saying we must do it.

We have got some great photos.

I

Rupert Isaacson: wanna
go to that exhibition.

Yeah,

Emma Hutchison: yeah.

No, we must do that actually.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, I was thinking
you could even make that in your arena,

like, constantly changing art exhibition.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, of like every
few months you perhaps change, change it,

and then you could publish and sell those,
those those images images of transition.

I love it.

Note to self, have this conversation
further with Emma and let's

see what we can come up with.

It's so inventive what you're doing.

I love it.

Okay, so you don't, of course
just work with military.

You've pivoted to schools,
you've pivoted to adult mental

health and that sort of thing.

What precipitated that change?

Because I, again, I know quite a
lot of programs that are veterans

programs or first responders programs
that really stick very much with that

population because it is a fairly
specific set of experiences that

have brought those people there.

Again, I was really intrigued when I ran
across your program saying, but hold on,

they're doing all these other things too.

How did that evolve?

Emma Hutchison: So we started
with the military for the

reasons that I've spoken about.

We are a charity, we
have to bring in funds.

And around about those times when
we started, there was funding

for military programs because
everybody felt this affinity with

what the guys were going through.

About five years into it, we were
talking to one of the guys from the,

the lead military charities and he
said, you have to get all of your eggs

outta this basket because this, this
pot of funding that there is at the

moment is not gonna be there forever.

And it is, it disappear quickly.

So you need to.

And coincidentally at the same time as
this happened, we were approached by

the headmaster of one of the secondary
schools up here who said, I have

got a group of 15-year-old boys and
we don't know what to do with them.

They are just absolutely outta control.

We dunno what to do with them.

Can we send them up to you?

So I kind of did that and
whatever, and of course the boys

said, absolutely send them here.

So we had this group of, of boys and they
were fundamentally lacking some sort of

alpha male input into their lives, really.

And one thing we do have here is
quite a lot of alpha male energy.

Yes, you

Rupert Isaacson: do.

I've been up that.

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

So, which is

Rupert Isaacson: unusual in a therapeutic
riding at equine assisted, you know, unit.

'cause normally it's,
you know, 90, 95% female.

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

So they sent these guys up here, and
again, it was absolutely transformational.

The, the boys were given some
boundaries, given some rules.

They were given some consequences
if they reacted or didn't do what

they were asked to do in a very,
you know, polite way or whatever.

They were told to run around
the arena three times.

And they soon, it sounds like
terrible bootcamp, doesn't it?

But it, it was just, they hadn't
experienced anything like that before.

And, after a few hours.

They loved it.

They loved that kind of release of energy.

When we work with the schools groups,
the first hour that we do with the

schools groups is not in a classroom.

It's not with the horses.

It's basically dependent on the weather.

If it's raining, it's in the indoor arena.

If it's not, it's in the outdoor
arena and we build obstacle

courses and we play around it.

So for the first hour that
they're hear the phones go into

a box that they're taken away.

And these kids literally, they
have to move because again,

children are not active enough

these days.

Yeah, I agree.

Emma Hutchison: They'll moan and
groan and whatever, but again, by day

two, they're absolutely loving it.

And you find out all sorts of things
about somebody who's actually really

accurate with a round of bat and
somebody else can catch really well

and somebody else can run really fast.

And yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: When you say that they,
the lads, your ex-military team, and I'd

like to talk, I'd like you to talk to
us a bit more about who you team are.

Obviously we've met Jay, but I've
met some of your other team too.

And I, I think it would be helpful for
listeners if you could introduce them

when they said, okay, go run around the
arena three times, you know, of course

some teenage boys might say, what f you?

And then of course it is not the
military, so you can't actually follow

up with any physical consequences.

So what did you just find that
simply taking that approach.

Was accepted by those boys because there
was actually this sort of need for it.

And the boys themselves, somewhere
from within knew that they needed

that or because, because that's
a risk to take, isn't it, to say,

okay, here's the consequence, run
around the arena three times, or

give me 20 press up or something.

And then the person says, well,
no, I'm not gonna do that.

And then you haven't really
got much to follow it up with.

So it's a, it's an
interesting risk to take.

Yeah.

So just talk to us a
little bit about that.

Emma Hutchison: This is
where Jay is an expert.

I have fallen to this a couple
of times where I have sort of

said there was one incident when
we had, again, a particularly

difficult group of teenagers here.

And we were all sat around the
you've got a kind of fire pit kind of

thing with a parachute over the top.

We sat there having a chat in the morning
and this kid was just constantly talking

and on his phone and I said, I'd really
like you to move because I'd like you to

move over there so that you're not next
to, and he looked at me and he looked

at me and he looked at me and I thought,
oh no, this is gonna go horribly wrong.

It's not gonna move.

And about 20 sort of 30 seconds,
we had this sort of eye contact.

And then my heart was going, and then
he suddenly stood up and he moved

and he went and sat down and my heart
kind of went down and I relaxed and

thought, I've got away with that.

But I came back to Jay and said, oh.

Said Emma never do that
without a playing plan B.

And I said, well, what
would plan B have been?

He said, you'd have left him sitting
there and you move everybody else.

So Jay has these plans when he's
working with the kids because he's

generally the one that works with them
in that environment where if somebody

doesn't want to do something, well
everybody else will move somewhere else.

And then that person is where they
are, but now they're not with their,

all their friends in their little
gang because their friends in their

little gang have moved somewhere else.

So then they want to be where
you want to be, so they're gonna

do what you ask them to do.

So it's not by force
or anything like that.

It's by not mind games even.

It's just clever skills that, I dunno
where he got 'em from, but yeah, he's got

these things all in his little toolbox
that he can manage to assess any situation

and, and get these kids to do this
without realizing that they're doing it

Rupert Isaacson: interest.

So interesting to me.

Okay.

Talk to us a little bit about the
other members of the team now.

I met taf for example.

When I came up, I met Jock.

Jock wasn't as around as I would've liked.

So I, I didn't get a lot of time
with him when I was with you.

But I could see, you know, extremely,
extremely charismatic man with bringing

his own ex-military experience.

Just talk us through a little
bit the team you've got.

'cause it really is unusual
to find such a male.

Presence in an equine assisted team.

Emma Hutchison: So Jock, my husband
so he basically was a Royal Marine

commando and a helicopter pilot
in the military for 10 years.

So he also has had a passion
for horses since he was a child.

He has a DHD.

He can't sit still for
more than 15 minutes.

That's on a good day.

He is absolutely passionate about this
type of work, about helping people.

He's been through his own kind of mental
health issues and so feels really empathy

for those that are going through it.

And he, his huge skill is being
able to connect with people on that.

First, they come up the drive and
you've got him in his cowboy hat

and his chaps and his horse kind of
saying, hi, come with me and I'll

just talk to you about me and my horse
and the relationship that we have.

And he's able to, within that 45
minutes to an hour, be able to get

somebody to say, wow, this is, this
is a place that I want to come to.

I understand that I, I too
could have a relationship with

a horse and with another person.

And I, I, I do it annoyingly
with, with anybody who here.

Whether it's autistic kids, whether
it's military guys, whether it's

Wi Ladies, whether the whole, he,
they come and they just think that

Jock is the best thing since Slice.

He then hands them over to us and
it is almost like his, his bit, his

kind of showmanship, which is his his
main kind of role is, is, is done.

And then we, so we kind of wheel
him in and wheel him out as and as

and when he's needed because he's
amazing for these other things.

But again, the energy with Jock can
be quite high because that's what

he's, so as I say, we have to wheel
him in and then wheel him back.

But again, he does all the PR stuff and
the marketing stuff and things like that.

And he's a very good ideas person.

So he'll come up with
these, what about this?

Why don't we speak to these people?

What about this, what about, and, and most
of the ideas you say, no, but every now

and then there's, there's one that you
go, Hmm, naturally if we put that thought

into that, we could work with that.

So that's, that's him.

We then have ta who runs our, it
was the Princess Trust program.

It's now the King's Trust.

So that's our Youth 12 week youth
development program where it's

for 16 to 25 year olds and they
come here for 12 solid weeks.

And throughout that time,
they work with the horses.

They do all the other activities
that I've already mentioned.

They have a week where they do, they
go out and do adventurous activities.

So they, we hire e-bikes for
them and we make them e-bike up

some hills and things like that.

They do river walks, they do camp out.

Which bizarrely bearing in mind that
we live in Aberdeen, she, a lot of

these kids have never stayed away
from home or let alone camped out.

So it's a huge deal for a lot of
these kids to go away on this.

And it, this is a residential week apart.

12 weeks is a residential program.

They do work experience, they do
I do that a community project.

So one of the community projects was they
went around one of the local estates and

they cleaned all of these old a hundred
year old well rest and be thankful things.

So when the old Drovers used to
bring the cattle and the sheep

along, they would, they have these
rest and be thankful water things.

So they cleaned all those
for community project.

They cleaned a load of tracks.

So it's an amazing project that they do.

Path is retired officially
from the military.

He's in his early sixties.

He was in the military for 40 odd years.

Rupert Isaacson: What did he do?

Emma Hutchison: He was in the
pioneers, so he was, he was in

as a noncommissioned officer to.

And then ended up

Rupert Isaacson: to ask you about
who the pioneers are because I,

that's quite an interesting branch
of the British military, which I

think a lot of American listeners
and some would not be familiar with,

Emma Hutchison: I think I'm
not a great expert on this, but

they basically build things.

So if you go somewhere and you need a
bridge build tool, something, whatever,

the pioneers of the people that go
in with the expertise to build the

bridge to get the tanks over, right.

So, he's a really charismatic guy.

He, the last few years that he was
in, he worked at the OTC, which is

the young officers in the university.

So working with young, young people again.

And he now runs this program and
he's absolutely amazing at it.

Yeah.

So you have taf, you have Joanne,
who's our admin lady who again

is married to an ex Navy pilot.

So again, you've got the
Navy connection there.

And then you have my daughter,
Charlotte, who you know, support

you through and through, she's
done a psychology degree, so she's

interested in, in all that side of it.

And then we've got Georgia, who
is one of our school leavers.

So she came on one of our schools
programs about four years ago.

She then came here on work experience and
she's now employed as a, as a yard person.

She's amazing.

And then we've got some guys down
south who, again, more ex-military

guys who when we are running programs
elsewhere, or they'll come up and

be involved in the, the program.

Are is,

Rupert Isaacson: are these the people
that you refer to as your mentors?

Emma Hutchison: No.

So these, that's our kind of southern team

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Are

Emma Hutchison: basically people who have
been through the program and then we have

recognized certain skills with them and
thought, Hmm, that's somebody that will

be amazing as a mentor for other people.

So we then put them on a mentors
and an additional program that Jay's

put together and they come up here
and they, they given, you know,

things about boundaries and, and
sort of additional skills to help.

And

Rupert Isaacson: these would be people
who transitioned out of the military

exactly as we were talking about earlier.

Gone through that identity crisis
and then have come out on the other

side of it and have created careers
and lives in the civilian world.

Emma Hutchison: So they have all been
through huge, huge processes themselves.

So they have got the empathy, but as
you say, they have, they still, they,

they would all quite happily admit
that they're still on their journey.

I think we're all on some sort of
journey, but they all happily say,

well, you know, some of them are
working others are, are not working.

We've got John, who is 79,
he's an ex Royal Marine.

He is the fittest,
79-year-old you will ever see.

And he's amazing.

And he said, this is what.

He up here four or five times a
year, and he's just brilliant.

So they're kind of like, you know, mom
and dad at the house dependent on age.

Rupert Isaacson: But that's such a clever
way to organize because I think a lot

of organizations like ours that, you
know, the manpower thing is, is massively

tricky because it's, you know, humans are
expensive and also entirely necessary.

Yeah.

And then you don't
always have so much work

for the whole team.

So to have these people that, you
know, are adjunct, that come in

and come out who've also graduated
through your program, I think

there's actually a lot that a lot of
listeners could learn from with that.

Because one of the, as you can
imagine, I go around doing a lot of

trainings and one of the things I
hear regularly is I haven't got the

capacity, the human capacity for the
amount of work I need to do, or that

is coming in and I can't yet fundraise
for all those full-time salaries.

And, you know, I can't necessarily
hire those full-time salaries

until I know that those people are.

Worth, you know, able to fully
integrate into this program because,

you know, and then they might be out
on a limb geographically like you are.

So that, you know, the equivalent in
the USA, they might be in the mountains

of Colorado or they might be, you know,
some of the places we have in Ireland.

And there's a difficulty because
people then have to relocate from

somewhere else to do that job.

And then you're taking a big risk,
you're taking a punt on that person.

And if it doesn't work out for whatever
reason, so much has been invested and they

have had to do so many life changes to get
themselves up to Northern Scotland or, you

know, find a job, find, find, find a place
to live and to, if it doesn't work out.

But, so your idea of, of people coming in
and out in, in this sort of mentor role

and also having a sort of team that's down
south where the big populations are that

can then seasonally if you like, bring
people to and front, I think that's really

inventive and you might underestimate
yourselves a little bit there.

I think there's a lot that many of
us running these programs could learn

from you all in how you organize that.

How did you come up with that concept?

Because it's, it's quite original.

Emma Hutchison: We because of
the vulnerability of the military

guys and because they were still
serving, we were basically taking

a group of guys, putting them into
a, into a house, and I, I am Mrs.

Health and Safety, I had real concerns
about, you know, a lot of these guys

mentally were just fragile and I wasn't
happy about putting them in a house

without some sort of supervision.

So initially when we started, we would
have a, a member staff stay in the

house with them and it just didn't work
because they felt that they were being

Yeah,

Emma Hutchison: constantly And you know,
tail been told and all this sort of stuff.

And so again, it, it, we, we just got
some great people who came on the court

courses early on and just said, look, how
do you feel about if we, if we are, we're

always there at the end of the phone.

If something happens, then
we're at the end of the phone.

How do you feel about going in as
the person who meets and greets?

So, the mentor's always there because our
program runs on a on a Monday morning,

but everybody flies up, drives up,
drive, whatever it is on the Sunday.

So they have that first awful night in
the house where they don't know anybody.

They don't know what they're going
to do because they've got this vague

sort of story of what horseback
does, but they still don't really

know what they're coming to.

They might be hundreds
of miles away from home.

They're extremely anxious and
they're met by one of our mentors

who say, hi, it's great to see you.

I've made some Nathan, I've
got chili on the whatever.

But they already, they have
these group chats beforehand.

So they already start to get to
know each other and interact and has

anybody got any diet requirements?

Have you got any favorite recipes?

Do you need to bring a soft pillow or
any of these kind of things to make them

start to feel a little bit comfortable.

You know, are you army or you navy?

Are you the same regimen
as me or whatever?

And then the mentor meets them
on the door and says, look

mate, I've been where you were.

I was anxious.

I was the one who, who didn't want
to go up the drive, who didn't wanna

get outta the car, who was terrified
to come here and nearly didn't get on

the plane, but you've made it here.

That's the first step.

Come on in.

And the thing is, again, about
the military dependent on which

army you were in, you call a cup
of tea, a wet or a something else.

There's this camaraderie that they
instantly have that Oh, I, I was in the,

I dunno, I get very confused by all.

So they, they have this instant, they'll

Rupert Isaacson: have
their private languages.

Yeah, tribal languages.

And

Emma Hutchison: they always
know somebody who knows somebody

who's dad knew somebody.

It's absolutely nuts that everybody
on every single course has always

got somebody who's known, somebody
who's known somebody kind of thing.

So by the time they come to us on
that Monday morning, they go off

and get a cup of tea in the kitchen.

We bring the mentors in
and say, right, how was it?

And they've already sussed everybody
out and they can say, oh, you know,

he's, he needs to be, he's a bit quiet.

We need to just bring him forward.

And that helps me because I very
quickly have to allocate the horses

for that first day from quite a.

Knowledge because again, the
knowledge that you get on

the phone and the application
forms is, is irrelevant really.

So it's that the feedback that I get
from the mentors and then literally

just that first kind of bit around the
table and having that first cup of tea.

And I'd say it is amazing though.

Rarely do I get it wrong with the,
the horses and we have to change them.

You can generally suss people
out because they're, they're most

vulnerable then, and then they, it,
it's really apparent what they need.

Even if they're trying to mask it.

You can see, well this, this is
somebody who needs to be more confident

and stand up and be more assertive.

So I'm gonna give them poll because
poll is a big old co and you know,

if you're not assertive with her,
she's gonna drag you over the field

to get the long bit of grasp thing.

So

Rupert Isaacson: do, do you feel that
that's a system that you could train

other equine assisted groups in and how to
identify, find and deploy these mentors?

'cause I think this is, this is
something that sort of hasn't

occurred to a lot of people.

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

And we've got mentors.

We have got mentors course that Jay's
put together, which is actually an

sqa Scottish Qualifications Authority
qualification where it can be so they

can come and get an actual qualification.

But the thing is with them, we
are really grateful to them and

we really grateful to because

right.

Emma Hutchison: They don't wanna
be away from, they love coming

to horseback, horseback, they are
part of the horseback family one.

We always kind of joke, you
know, once you're here, you're

never away from the family.

You are part of this dysfunction family.

And so they love and they're, they're
continuing their journey and they

feel they are giving something back.

They are helping other people.

And that's, you know, that's the sort of
circle that we wanna kind of be able to

Rupert Isaacson: do.

Some of these mentors also come
and help you on the non-military

program, so they help you with the
troubled youth and the kids and Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I think, I think what we need to
do is maybe after this podcast maybe

do a, a, a webinar for our stu for our
members on new trails learning systems,

you know, who are all running programs.

I think that people would be fascinated
by this possibility that if you weren't

connected to the military in the way that
you guys are, you wouldn't know that there

are these networks that you can tap into.

And it might not occur to people who
are in the military or transitioning

outta the military that they could
become mentors in programs like these,

unless they're, you know, so you guys
really bridge could serve as a bridge I

feel, between the more civilian end of
equine assisted, which is most of it.

And really solving a lot of these,
these dilemmas which people have

of not enough team members, but
not enough money to hire people.

Full time and can't really
rely on volunteers all the time

because it's not, it's not fair.

And b, if you not paying people, they
sort of can't show up all the time.

And that a lot of people get
caught in that time, in, in,

in that particular dilemma.

It seems like you guys have really
found an amazing way through that.

So with your permission, I
think we'll ask you to come and

do some consulting with that.

You talk about allocating horses.

Talk to me about the horses.

Talk to me about how you
train and prepare the horses.

Talk to me about, you know, obviously
there's, how many horses have you got?

How, how do you keep them?

Talk me through the equine end.

Emma Hutchison: So we we're
lucky, we have plenty of space.

We have a herd of 40 horses who dietary
requirements allowing we've got a big

in the, in the winter we have fields
around the, the house and the stables.

So they live in smaller herds
around the, in the winter because,

because that's what has to happen.

In the summer we've got a 40 acre hill
field which pretty much most of the

herd go out two, certainly in the next
two weeks, and it'll be up on the hill.

The grass is just starting to grow now
and then we've got another 40 acre.

Of rough, what we call rough ground.

So it is literally rough ground, all
sorts of different types of grasses.

Go bushes, bits of little
bits of woodland and stuff.

And I mean, you talk to Jay about
the, the bush, one of the, the best

activities that we do with the kids
is dependent on the time of the year.

If the horses are out in the rough
ground, it's kind of like, guys, you're

gonna have to go find your horses because
you literally can lose these horses

and you can take half an hour sort of
marching across this bit going just

Rupert Isaacson: to locate them.

Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: And then you can
locate it, but you can't get to it

because there's a huge break horse
that you can't go through unless

you've got the highland pony that just
literally goes straight through it.

So I mean, our, our thing is that they're
kept as naturally as they possibly can be.

Happy horses in that sort of
environment, may working with them,

for them doing their job very easy.

It means that we don't have to worry
about you know, whether this horse

is gonna kick that horse or whatever
when we are working with them in more

enclosed spaces because they've, they've
dealt with all that in the fields.

They all know the hierarchy and
never think about, you know,

don't go near that horse because
it's it's mean kind of thing.

So they have all sorted out
the horse, sort all that out.

We have bred some of our own
horses, so easy to just bring into

the workplace and start working.

Because coming in as, and getting tied up.

Herd.

And people are always amazed when they
come up here that we can have 20 horses.

We've got the, the corral in
the center of our kind of stead.

We tie the horses all up there.

They don't get hay nets.

They just get tied up and they just stand.

And they'll stand there
whilst they're groomed.

They'll stand there all together.

And our young horses learn how to stand
because everybody else is standing

and that's what you do sort of thing.

So we start the youngsters coming
in with, with the other horses.

And then they'll just
start to get groomed.

We do do a lot of groundwork with them
because part of the programs that our guys

do is simple things like backing a horse
up or drawing a horse into you, or being

able to just move its back end around.

So it's just very simple kind
of horsemanship that we do.

So all of our horses need to be
able to do that to ensure that

every individual that asks the horse
to back up is going to get a win.

So the horses are all kind of
taught from a, a certain command

and a, and a and a noise.

And the, the people who come on
the are told, well do this bit

of pressure, ask with this noise,
and the horse will back up.

So the horses have to be trained to
a certain standard to get that win.

Probably 50 of them are ridden.

So again, those are all started in Holter.

They're generally started bare back.

Once you can walk rot and can to
bare background in a Holter, then

we might decide to put a saddle on.

So that, and again, they're just
so used to being around each other.

It's just a really simple process.

So we do put saddles on them,
but we ride in side falls.

We don't ride in bridals.

So again, we ride kind of like with a,
if people are riding, then they'll ride

with a kind of like a Luc range because
again, I've got this real phobia of,

of kids in riding schools, balancing
on their hands and things like that.

So I'm just we need to be as
kind to the horses as we can.

When they do ride, the first thing that
we tend to do, we used to, we used to do

a lot more of the like, let's get you on.

But actually now I've kind of changed
a bit, and the first time that people

will get on is actually bareback.

So their first experience of
riding a horse will be bareback,

whether it's the kids or, or
the adult or the military guys.

Because again, it is just
about that closeness.

And again, it's, it's, it's
not about riding a horse, it's

about having that connection.

It is about feeling the way that the
horse is moving and we'll get them to,

you know,

Emma Hutchison: touch their
toes or put their arm up or

maybe close their eyes and.

They're riding, but they,
it's not about the riding.

And then they get off and
say, I want to do this again.

I want to do more.

So then we can do more.

And then we might put the saddle on.

We might not put a saddle along.

We might do some obstacle courses.

We might end up going for a trail
ride round the rough ground.

When we do that, you end up being
followed by several Shetlands, which

can be slightly intimidating sometimes.

But or as I say, we might take them
off onto the, the trail where we bundle

them all in the lorry and they go for
the big kind of trail rides and then

the, the guys camp out every night.

So, as I say, the horses
have all got, they've all got

things that they enjoy more.

So we've got the horses
that love being groomed.

There's always some horses that are
a bit nonplus about being groomed.

We've got horses that are
fantastic at groom groundwork.

We've got horses that are
very good in the round pen.

We do do some some stuff in the, and we've
got some horses that are good at that.

We've got others that love being ridden.

We've got ones that can
be ridden, but they don't.

We able to, because we've
got the space and the put the

horses into the job that they.

Good at and love, which means they're
better at the job that they do

because they love it kind of thing.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And they're more,
more generous when it comes to

occasionally being asked to do a job.

Well, okay, maybe that's not
my favorite job, but, alright.

Yeah, yeah.

You also though, you, you guys
are accomplished rider in the,

in the sport world as well.

You guys event your and your
daughter's event and so on.

So it's interesting that you, you
cross, you know, it's, it's, I'm

always intrigued by people that cross
over between those worlds because

one of the if you like, curses of the
equestrian world is that I always feel

people over specialize as like, I am
only a natural horsemanship person.

I only do western pleasure, or
I am, you know, a show jumper.

But I'm not interested in that dressage
stuff or I'm only a dressage writer.

It's like,

why

Rupert Isaacson: not do it all?

You know?

I mean, horses, pe presumably like
variety in the same way that people do.

So I was quite intrigued when I
came to you to see that aspect.

What do you feel that the involvement
in eventing brings to the assisted

program and from an equine standpoint
and from a human standpoint?

Like what, talk to me about that
cross-fertilization that also happens

within your own family as well.

So this makes for an interesting mosaic.

Emma Hutchison: I think.

I mean, anybody who, kind of connection
with their partner, the horse, because

otherwise, I mean, there are people
who will do it, but I personally, I

think, and, and I think in eventing
as well, because it's so extreme,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

You have to trust the
horse with your life.

Yeah.

You

Emma Hutchison: have to have, yeah.

I mean, you, you cannot make a horse
jump what these guys are jumping.

The horse has to wanna, and,
and you're not gonna get the

right stride the whole time.

So you are putting your trust in that
horse to get the two of you over.

And you have to you have to give
the horse the capacity to think.

And I think that that's what I always
say is the difference personally that

I feel between your more traditional
English riding and your more sort of

Western horsemanship is that in the,
the western side, you tend to put a

little bit more hands on, a little
bit more responsibility on the horse.

Rupert Isaacson: As someone that lives
in Texas for over 20 years, I'd say

you see exactly the same spectrum
of bad and good in the western world

that you do in the English world.

But yes a good horseman does do that.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

Emma Hutchison: So again, what what
we've, what we've done is with the, the

horses that we used to compete on mm-hmm.

They're still used.

They still benefit from
all of the other stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

Emma Hutchison: That we
do with the horses here.

Rupert Isaacson: And do they get
involved in the program as well just

or is there like, oh no, you guys are
the posh horses over there and you guys

are the, the rough horses over there or
do they all actually muck in together?

Emma Hutchison: There is a bit
of like, well these are the posh

horses over here, but when we're
wanting to show what you can achieve

with what now,

Emma Hutchison: this is when you've got
a a a sort of top level partnership,

this is what you can achieve.

And we've got one of the, the
thoroughbreds who is very extreme and

it's taken a lot of, a lot of work with
her to sort of be able to teach her, to

bring her anxiety down and, and sort of,
so we can use her to show, this is a horse

that was at the top of its game, was a
kind of race horse is basically designed

to run this is, this is long legs.

She runs she doesn't want to be
made to stand still and do kind

of little things, but we've taught
her that actually it can be fun.

So we do a lot of liberty stuff with
her and taught her to sort of come in a

whistle and, and the kids love all that.

If you can kind of have a horse sort
of countering around you in a circle in

the field and then you whistle and it
kind of runs to you and nozzles in the

kids are like, wow, that's just amazing.

And we've got some of the horses that are,
are quite capable of doing that with these

kids and they just, they just love it.

Just being followed around by.

The individuals.

We have got a herd of an aging herd,
which again, we, we bred some horses

because we did think we'll buy there.

By this time these horses
will no longer be with us.

We have got now quite a herd of 20, 20,
30-year-old who are still have come out

this winter particularly well and actually
have been used on the program last week.

They just come in, they get a groom.

They love that.

That's kind of where
they're at the moment.

And then we've got some little
mini Shetlands because we get

big six foot, six raw marines
who are terrified of horses and

literal

Emma Hutchison: terrified horses.

So you bring this thing that is the
size of a Labrador out and say, you're

having a laugh if you're telling me
that you, you're frightened of that.

And then they kind of
say, okay, fair enough.

Rupert Isaacson: And then why not
disclosing to them that the most

terrifying equine they will ever
encounter is in fact a Shetland pony.

But hey,

Emma Hutchison: well, exactly.

Yeah.

They are the horrors.

So we've got, we've got lots of
different, we've got thoroughbreds,

we've got cos we've got quarter
horses, we've got Irish drafts, we've

got a whole spectrum of, of horses.

We've got horses that we've rescued, we've
got things that we were given whatever.

And they've all kind of found their,
their little place, but they, they're

just but as I say, it, it fascinating
how we had one horse last week with

one of the military with a lady and he.

And I don't know why I made this match
with this lady last week, but I thought,

right, I'm gonna put her with Mikey.

And he just loved her and it
was just a match made in heaven.

And I just thought, my goodness, this
horse is just having a fantastic week.

He was, every day he was looking for,
and he'd come in and it was just amazing.

Just amazing.

So they are, they're funny critters.

And we had, again, we've got one big
Irish draft horse who had a, a really

autistic boy who came on one of the
schools programs and just, you know,

he didn't want to engage at all.

And so we were out with all the other kids
catching the horses and he just stood,

put his head down and just whatever.

And this big old Irish draft was not
the horse I was gonna put him with,

but he clocked him from the other
side of the field and he, I just saw,

saw him kind of like coming and he
just literally came up and he put

his head on this kid's shoulder.

Ah.

Emma Hutchison: So they spent the
whole, their, their school program.

He then came back to us about two years
later to do the youth development program

and bubbling up here to think about it.

And this kid, having not been here
for two years, went into the field

and exactly the same thing happened.

This horse

Emma Hutchison: from a distance
sped this child who was then 19

years old and literally went up
to him and did the same thing.

Now how does that happen?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is one
of the things that I am constantly

flawed by, is just when I think I
know something about horses, they do.

In, in this type of work that
we do, the way that they'll show

up making their own decisions

completely independent of us.

I remember once one of my really good
quarter horses who could be aloof.

We had a boy who drowned and was
in a pretty vegetative state and

people said, well, can we bring him?

I'm like, sure.

But I, I dunno what you know, but Sure.

And this kid comes out and he's in
a wheelchair and he's completely

unresponsive feeding to tube, and
my horse clue just comes like you

just described across the field and
just sniffs him all over and then

licks him all over from head to toe.

Emma Hutchison: And that's
not something that horses do.

That's just, we,

Rupert Isaacson: they don't,
and it's not like that he was

my licking horse or something.

No.

And

what ended up happening was the kid
ended up riding him and indicating and

responding and, but what was going on

mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: In the sort of
other dimensional consciousness.

That the, with, for example, with this
autistic boy that you describe and

your horse, something goes on in, in,
in, in that field of consciousness

that's outside of our perception.

And it's, I think, I always
think that's one of the

things that keeps us in, in this,
because it can be quite exhausting

work, as you yourself know.

And then you, you come across these
situations relatively regularly and it's

like you are, you are dancing with God.

It's like you Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: But people
say to us, how does it work?

And I just say, I don't know.

Yeah.

But I don't need to know.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: And I
think that's the best.

Just let it happen
because it, it does happen

Rupert Isaacson: now really what
we're talking about with the

collective consciousness in that,
you know, you can call it God, you

can call it the Akashic record.

You can call it, you know, parallel
consciousness as or, but really

it seems to come down to love.

And you know, we've touched on
the fact that you operate as an

extended family, but you also
operate as a close type family.

What's it been like for you and your
children to really grow up together?

Because as you know, parents, kids
make their parents grow up, whether

their parents want to or not.

You guys have grown up in
this endeavor, as you said.

You know, when the.

Lads were first coming out, it
was your fridge, and they might

eat the kids' lunch or dinner.

And the kids sort of having to
grow up sharing their space.

I think it's very healthy.

Talk to us about what it's like for you
and for them to do this thing as a family.

Emma Hutchison: So, I mean,
the, the, the best was Helena

was three when we started this.

And for the first few years, a
lot of the guys who were coming

to us had prosthetic legs.

So in our kitchen you would see
literally these prosthetic legs all

just leaning against the wall in the
kitchen and various other kind of limbs.

So the girls just grew up,
they thought that was normal.

But Helena would always, as soon
as we got somebody came up to the

house, whether it was on a course or
whether it was just somebody else,

she just used to kick them in the shin

quite a while to say,

she said, it's not a real, I said,
but, but not everybody has metal legs.

It's, it's, you can't just
kick people in the shin.

So she just thought that everybody
had these, these kind of amazing

legs that you could kind of kick.

And again, Charlotte used to
some of the courses, some of the

prosthetics that they had had feet.

So, you know, I've got decisions of
the girls with their eight or nine nail

polish out and they would be nail polish.

Just, you know, and I think a lot
of their friends, they just, because

people can find things like that,
disfigurement and disability and stuff,

people can find it really difficult.

They don't know how to,
how to deal with it.

How to

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Can trigger fear basically.

Yeah.

How, how do

Emma Hutchison: I speak to, I
mean, a really good friend of mine

said, well, how do I speak to Jay?

When we first met him, and
I said, what do you mean?

How do you speak to Jay?

Well, you know, Jay's got all this
stuff that's gone on with him.

I said, but speak to him like he's Jay.

Yeah.

And

Emma Hutchison: she said,
okay, but people find barriers.

So my kids had no barriers.

Their friends had no barriers
because it was just normal.

They loved it until they got to
about 12 or 13, then they hated it.

It was the worst thing when Dad used to
go into school to give a presentation

about the charity or everybody would
say, oh, what's happening at horseback?

They hated it.

And then that love has kind of
come back, sort of 16, 17, suddenly

the, they actually appreciate
what we're doing here and see the

differences and have got involved.

And so that kind of passion
and that love has come back.

It's not easy working with family.

And obviously Jock and I work together.

We are very different.

We have managed to carve out very
different roles within the charity, which

has kind of kept us able to work together.

And as I say, Charlotte's kind of
come in now and she's the yard manager

and the horse trailer and stuff.

So she's carved out her role there.

It's difficult, but it is, as
I say, I think they're, they're

now very proud of, of, of this.

It's 16 years into it and this
kind of legacy that, that they

are part of the horseback family
as are their friends actually.

They're, they're kind of kind of
proud of it now, but it's been, been

a journey It has, I have to say.

Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

What's what's interesting as, as you're
talking, I'm just considering, you

know, you've got a core equine team
there, which is mother and daughters.

You've got a core male team, which
is, okay, now what are we gonna

do with these prepared horses?

And obviously there's integration.

It's not like everyone's confined
to a role, but it makes me think

very much of sort of a hunting and
gathering community where you do

have to some degree gender roles, but
not because anyone's assigned them.

Like, you can't hunt 'cause
you're a woman, or you can't

gather 'cause you're a man.

Of course you can.

And actually there's a lot of
cross-fertilization people do, but

people find their roles by choice.

So they have agency and then they know
how to weave that ecosystem together.

And again, you know, as we
know the horse world is, is.

A, you know, just female dominated
anyway, except for in the professional

end where you do get a a bit more balance.

But I often observe this, particularly
working with autism, that you might get

an basically an all female staff with an
almost all male clientele, autistic boys.

And

where's the male role models
leadership Now, if you go to a place

that's doing, say, special needs
with surfing or mountain sports or

something, the blokes are there.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But we need
them in the horse world.

And you and in the equine programs,
you guys have really got that

and you've got the strong women
in leadership roles as well.

It's like the best of all worlds.

And I do feel that you guys could and
should be out there mentoring other

equine programs saying, look, you
gotta kind of have this balance if you

want to balance people's brains and
nervous systems because you, without

it, it's, it, it, it, it's weighted.

So that was actually gonna lead me into
the next thing I wanted to ask you about.

You guys have started this register
and I know that you're also running

courses and people can, now come
and train with you to some degree.

And you've also got, you, you, you're,
you're busy working stuff out with

Hart Pre College down which is one
of the big agricultural colleges

in, in the uk for those listeners
in the USA and elsewhere, just the

geography, it's think Alaska to Denver.

You know, it's, it's like the top of
the highlands down to Middle England.

It's, it's not round the corner.

But it's a major
educational establishment.

So talk to us now about Yeah.

The, the, the register and your
educational programs, and then also

how can people, you know, get in
touch with the four mentorship.

Emma Hutchison: So Hart came about,
I was down there six, seven years

ago, and we got the opportunity to
run some pilot programs down there.

Hart is the biggest EQU in
the university in the uk.

And it's very traditional.

And they, but they have some members
of staff who are quite high up, who,

who are quite innovative and thought
that it was a good idea for us to do

some equine assisted services programs.

So we went in.

But

Rupert Isaacson: how, because they're not
exactly in your neighborhood, are they?

And so you'd have expected that
to happen through a Scottish

college or So Hartery is.

Apples, oranges,

Emma Hutchison: personal
relationships basically.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emma Hutchison: So they kind of
invited us to run some programs.

And we basically, you can see, I remember
the first day that we went in, you

could see the equine department there
thinking, who are this bunch of weirdos

who are saying, can we build an obstacle
course and can we do this and can we

just groom the horses in the arena?

And with the kids we're
thinking, well, why are they not?

What, what is that for?

Anyway, they, within literally 24
hours, they were all asking if they

could volunteer to help yet find
director is just the most amazing guy.

We've run some pilot schemes, we've
run some additional programs, and we're

now trying to, I'm going down in a next
month to see how do we work out, how

do we fund this on a long term basis
because it needs to be sustainable.

It needs to be something that isn't just
there a, a week here and a week there.

It needs to be something where
they want to bring equine assisted

services to Hartley so that
it's a standalone department and

running all sorts of programs for
different groups, whether it's kids,

whether it's military, whatever.

So that's a work in progress, but it's
really exciting because to say it's

a, an environment that, it's amazing
how many horse people still don't

know about equine assisted services.

Rupert Isaacson: E.

Exactly.

And what I think what's changing,
particularly in the UK and Ireland,

is that it used to be, you know,
RDA and RDA was volunteer and

therefore you didn't get paid.

So you had to either be, you know,
you were usually a lady of a certain

age who didn't need to work, so you
were gonna put your time into that,

or someone who was really drawn to it
and you were gonna kind of work for

nothing because you felt this calling.

But things have changed now and quite
recently, you know, it's now a career

track and it can be a, a decently paid
career track, but this is all quite new.

So you're, you're right, a lot of people
aren't aware of it, dunno about it.

And they might be going into the
equine industry thinking, well, I've

got to go into the sport end, but
that's already saturated with, you

know, people and competition and
anyway, there's no security there.

Or like everything in sport, unless you
float up to the very, very top, it's,

yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

So, yeah.

Talk, talk to us about how you guys are
developing that and, and looking for

the funding for those sorts of programs.

And, and again, also tell us about
this register that you guys have

put together and what that's for.

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

How it sort of came about is as I
say, were looking to then Harvey,

were then looking to run an equine
assisted program as, as a qualification.

And then they realized that that part
of the, the program needs to be sending

people out to do practical work.

And actually they didn't know
who they were going to be sending

people out to students X Right.

To, they couldn't, how they didn't
know if, if, if these people that

they were gonna be sending them out
to were going to be any, any good.

So they kind of, pulled that back.

And at the same time we had myself
and some other people had got together

because I was been constantly contacted
saying I want to do what you do.

How do you do it?

Where'd you raise the money?

You know, whatever.

And I thought, you know, it's, this has
taken years and years of us doing this.

It's a really hard slog.

But there are lots of people out
there who are doing amazing jobs,

but there's also lots of people
who don't have the right insurance.

Whether they, they know or they dunno.

They, they possibly just dunno that
they don't have the right insurance.

There's a real thing within equine
assisted services that you suddenly

bring a horse into the environment
and you've become an expert in a

field that you've got no knowledge in.

Mm-hmm.

Just

Emma Hutchison: because you,

so, group of us got together and formed
this register, which is part equine.

Now the aim of this,

Rupert Isaacson: what's
the register called?

Emma Hutchison: The register's called
the Human Equine Interaction Register.

It's called Air, HEIR.

And that sits under this
Equine Services Partnership.

And basically the idea behind
that is that it, it's there to

protect and promote providers.

So, you know, service people
that, that actually deliver to

protect the participants and
to protect the horses as well.

That's the main aims to things like
making sure that people have got the

right insurance in place, that you stick
to your scope of practice that you are

considering animal welfare, that you're
not just doing this to earn a few extra

buck on top of your riding school kind
of thing that you're doing, whatever.

It's, so, so it's now got, I think,
close on a hundred different members

that are from single people members
doing it to organizations like ourselves.

And we've got the second annual general
meeting that's being held at heart

rate on the, is it the 8th of April?

And again, it's about sharing information.

It's about learning from each other.

It's not about being modality specific.

I don't care what what model you
use, as long as you're doing good

work and you're being kind to
the horses, you've got the right.

Insurance is in place and you are doing
what you are, you've got the skills to do.

So.

If you are, if you, if you're not
a therapist, don't say that you're

doing therapy or don't try and do
therapy, leave that to the qualifier.

Rupert Isaacson: How, how do you,
if you like police this though, how

do you, how do you, because are you
actually traveling around and doing

inspections on each individual place or?

Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: So it's, as it stands at
the moment, it's a voluntary membership.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emma Hutchison: We are asked, we
would ask, somebody would apply and

we would ask for specific documents.

Have you got qualifications, whatever,
to show that you say what you're doing.

And then as far as things like
the welfare, it's basically just

saying, these are the standards.

Do you apply to this?

I mean, we, at the moment, we, we, we
don't police it, but it is basically

pushing the emphasis on that individual
to say, yes, I, I do, this is what

I do, and I sign up to these values.

That's as far as we got at the
moment, is that, and we've,

it's been a big job to get

Rupert Isaacson: I am sure

have that You're dealing with a
lot of strong personalities and

very independent minded people too.

Yeah.

But I think we can all agree that we're in
this interesting transition with that EQU

assisted world, but people like you and I,
who kind of ended it up in it by default

and now are sort of 20 years in realize
that you, it would be helpful to have.

Some forms of regulation and
standardization and at the same time, that

can very quickly kill the whole thing.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And how
do you dance that line?

And the answer is that any of us
says, well, we don't know, but if

we don't try, then shame on us.

So I can see the, I can see
that the real value there.

Your, the, the meeting that's coming.

So listeners, we're, we're doing this
interview in March, early March of 2025.

And so Emma, you've just said this
is meeting will happen on the 8th

of April, but presumably if you're
listening, if you find this podcast

in a year from now, whatever,
there'll be more meetings coming up.

These AGMs that are happening at Hartley,
are they open, just generally open?

Anyone can attend?

It's and get information or, or, or Yeah.

How does it go?

Emma Hutchison: It's for membership.

We're kind of, again, we've been playing
around with the membership a little

bit, but we're now kind of, changing
it so that you can, but what if you

Rupert Isaacson: wanted to just
come and get information and Okay.

All the, all the lads are together.

Do you have anything that would be
open to say it was me and I wanted

to come and I'm not a member, but
I wanna find out more about it.

Can I come or how would it work?

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

I think as I.

Website.

There's an awful lot of
membership information on that.

And we are starting to put more
information on, we're doing things

that they're calling airtime.

So we've got a lady who is running
Zooms, and again, it can be for

members, but again, there are other
people that you can come in and learn

from these things because again, you
don't know whether you wanna sign

up for this to start with or not.

Sure.

Try before you buy almost, don't you?

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

Emma Hutchison: And then at the,
the, the one at Har, there's lots of

different speakers from all sorts of
different modalities talking about.

So could

Rupert Isaacson: someone buy a
ticket, for example, to that HAR

event and just come and listen?

Emma Hutchison: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: I think we

Rupert Isaacson: need some
horse for people to come there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: Information
will be on that on the website.

Okay.

So that's, I think, as I say, and then
the whole thing with qualifications,

again, I would love to have something
where, you know, this, somebody's

got this qualification that
they're at such and such a level.

Yeah.

But as

Emma Hutchison: you know, there's 1,001
different qualifications out there.

So what this partnership is trying
to do is trying to map all the

different qualifications, but at
least, you know, you come into

this as a, a counselor or dad who's
wanting to, to look for somebody.

You can see where all
these qualifications go.

And that one is level, that one
that isn't level with that one.

So that's piece in itself is
being kind of done at the moment.

Rupert Isaacson: So we should probably
get you, info on our program levels

and what those mean in terms of
skill sets so that you Yeah, okay.

That makes sense.

Because yeah, for example a horse
boy level two in terms of if you've

gone through the evaluation process,
not just the certification course.

Yeah.

ERA in Ireland will ensure you if
you, if we have gone taken that

person through the evaluation.

'cause we then know their standard
of equine care, not just their

standard of training and riding.

But we realize as, for example, horse
boy grows, we now have to evolve that

so that w we can go to the next level
of, okay, how do we inspect these yards?

Because just 'cause they went
through it and did well two years

ago doesn't mean they are where they
are now and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And of course a lot of organizations
have gone through this in the

past, like the BHS and whatever.

But it's, it's a learning
curve for all of us.

And it's, it's true.

I think we have to work together.

Emma Hutchison: But I think that's
the big thing to start with.

It's been about getting everybody to
buy in to working together because,

you know, 10 years ago people were
not prepared to work together.

No.

And now it's really coming together
and it's been, it's really positive.

So if we can get that and then
we can suddenly start to say,

well, let's start to put some
standards that we work towards.

And yeah.

So that's.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, if with
your permission, I'll, I'll,

I'll try to get a couple of
people down to that on April 8th.

I, myself can't because I'm gonna be in
the US but I'm thinking automatically

of Nicole Gillard, who runs our place
down in Froom, which is, you know,

relatively like you as an inventor.

And they have the they have
medical students coming out from

Bristol University doing their
electives and mental health going

to move the Mind, which is, it's,
that's the name of the place.

So it's now logical yes.

To add everybody to this network.

And I, it what I want listeners, the
reason I'm, I'm going on about this

and asking these questions of Emma,
is, is as our field evolves the only

way it's going to really serve the,
the number of people it needs to is

if it effectively becomes part of the
National Health Service or is if it's in

the USA is funded by just automatically
by the big insurance companies.

And I'm sitting here in Germany and
that is actually the case, the what's

called the Curatorium for te, which
is the, the sort of Health Department

of Therapeutic Writing is, and has
been a wing of the government health

department for like three decades.

So they, they, they have
really led the charge on this.

But the, the difficulty can be that not.

Every equine assisted need can
necessarily be met by every modality.

So the curatorium itself is running into
some issues of its own limitations, and

I think that's the same for all of us.

So there might be someone that comes
to my program and actually saying,

well, you know, actually that person
might be much, much, much better

served by horseback, but a, I need
to know about horseback for that.

BI need a relationship with horseback.

We need to be, not be in competition
with each other, and we need to really

understand what the other one does
so we can make, so that we can come

across as a, as a, as a, as a body
of professionals rather than a bunch

of bossy horsey people in fields or
looking at each other suspiciously.

Which as you say, 10 years ago,
it, it was, despite the very good

work that was being done, have you
found that there is, you say, got a

hundred members now on the register.

That's impressive.

How have you managed to get the word
out there and people to buy in and

what's, what's the message that you've,
and what's the outreach you've done?

Emma Hutchison: I mean, we obviously
had quite a rush to start with because

everybody kind of heard about it.

And then it, it, it just, it media.

To give yourself a voice, to be
heard, to learn from everybody else.

I mean, that's, you know,
I'm a great one for saying,

everybody learns from everybody.

You might learn how you don't wanna
do something, but you learn how

you do wanna do something else.

I was course last week and, you know,
you just, just learn from everybody.

It's, it's so, this is a,
it's a huge opportunity.

Don't be so stubborn and
think, oh no, I'm doing fine.

I'm, I'm absolutely, you know,

not

Emma Hutchison: doing, yes, you might
be doing a fantastic job, but you

can do an even better job by learning
from somebody else that might want

to do photography or something.

Rupert Isaacson: No, exactly.

Exactly, exactly, exactly that and,
and, and your whole mentorship system.

It's, it's, it's, it's
brilliant and it's original.

You think it's like the way
you were talking about it.

Oh yeah.

And we do this and we do, and we have
these, you know, this team down south who

come up and these, but it's actually a bit
mind blowing if you are listening to this

from where I'm sitting, because you just
answered in one sentence the dilemma of

just the, that gap between manpower and
funding that almost every organization

hits as it becomes a bit successful.

So the other

Emma Hutchison: thing, just,
just on that, the funding thing.

So again, what we've done is
we've had to move away from your

standard stuff, and we've been
working with our local council a.

And in Scotland we have a, like
an employability spectrum, which

is one, one being you don't have
a job, five being that you have a

job and everything else in between.

And I managed to convince the head
of the employability department

that we could provide a service to
people who were pre one and one.

So basically somebody who is not able to
leave the house or their wellbeing is so

bad that they're just so anxious about,
they can't even think about getting a job.

They're not gonna get to five.

It doesn't matter who you
invite them to go and see.

So let us spend some time with
them, we can work on them.

And then we work on them
pre one, we do one and two.

And then at that stage, they're ready to
engage with other people, social workers,

whoever it's employability organizations
or other members of the employability team

who can then say, right now let's think
about what you might want to do as a job.

Because now you're confident enough,
you're able to interact with other people.

You're getting up regularly,
you've got some sort of routine.

We can help put all these things in place.

And that has opened up funding to
us from a council point of view,

which we didn't have previous.

And that has worked with both the
youth development program and with it's

enabled us to start a community program.

So it's basically a week long
program where we work with horses,

do all the other activities.

And then the thing is we, we
working with the Ukrainian refugees.

As well.

So that's a new thing that
we're gonna be starting.

And it's a blended program, so
there will be some online stuff.

And again, you think you can't do this
work online, you can random, but we

learned that through Covid we weren't
able to deliver our programs here

'cause we couldn't have anybody here.

So we, we put together some videos and we
talked and we did some zooms with a video

of the horse and we were able to do that.

And that enables you, yes, ultimately you
always want people to be able to come and

interact with the horses, but sometimes
cost distance numbers exclude that.

So if you can put together this kind of
stuff then you can feed it to people.

They can make all these changes.

They might not make as much of a
change as if they're actually here

and then they can maybe come here for
a day to put all that into practice.

So that's what we're doing with some
of these, the Ukrainian community,

because again, we've got do some work to
convince them that they wanna actually

be involved in these programs to start.

So we're just about to take on a
Ukrainian social worker who will, will

become part of our team and is funded
through this, this employability program.

Rupert Isaacson: And is that social
worker sitting in Ukraine and will come

in by Zoom or Is is here in the uk.

Emma Hutchison: He's an immigrant himself.

That's, that's come over here and
he's actually been working with

the council for the last few years.

And they've allowed him to join our team.

Rupert Isaacson: Now when you say
you, you approach the council.

Okay.

And the council's got these Ukrainian
refugees, or the council's got these

people who can't get out of bed and,
you know, they're pre one or one.

Not everyone knows how
to approach a council.

Emma.

How do you do that?

Emma Hutchison: It's
just about relationships.

I mean, you have to basically do Italy,
find out who people are in councils.

There are so many different departments,

Rupert Isaacson: but people also
get elected and, and come and go.

So, I mean, let's say you're trying to
build something over two to four years.

You might be dealing with this
one person is, is sympathetic

and then someone else comes in.

And so how do you navigate, you know,
a a how do you, a, how do you lo

find, get that relationship going?

Like a lot of people are just shy.

What door do you even knock on?

How do you do it?

Do you send someone an email?

How does it begin?

And then how do you navigate?

Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

We started by, by contacting our local
counselors, and you're right, they do

change on a regular basis and you've
got your different, you know, your

different parties, get them all out,
invite them all out, get them to come

and see the work that you're doing.

I mean, as I say, we really, do you find

Rupert Isaacson: they generally
will, are they usually pretty

Emma Hutchison: They absolutely will try
a local productive, we've had local MSPs,

we've had our mps, we've had also, so,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

So, so in find out who
they are and invite them.

Emma Hutchison: Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emma Hutchison: People don't understand
this type of work until they see it.

We are very lucky.

We have got Jock who is an amazing
kind of sales front person to

do the real and he loves it.

You know, standing up in front of
and giving demonstrations is not

everybody's back, but he loves it.

So we're very lucky that we do have that.

And

Emma Hutchison: then again, the
employability team, the, I got to

know through inviting out the head
of the employability team, he had

no money for probably eight years.

And then one day I phoned him and he
said, you're not gonna believe this.

The government have just granted
us some additional employment

funding through this new scheme.

So yes, put a grant in and we'll work
together and we'll come up with a plan.

And that's basically what we've done.

And through that we have managed to got

Rupert Isaacson: it to

Emma Hutchison: get all this.

But I mean, it's just, it's just,

Rupert Isaacson: but without
that relationship, he would never

have called you to say that?

Emma Hutchison: No, it's, I
mean, it's still, it's not

an a well known enough thing.

People certainly up here, people are
not going, oh, that send somebody

to EQU assist, they'll sort it out.

Not, not in a million years.

You have gotta fight your corner.

So you've gotta get it's numbers,
you've gotta contact loads of people,

you've gotta constantly follow it up,
invite people out, send them brochures.

I mean, it's just general kind
of sales, isn't it really?

Which when you're delivering at the
same time is really difficult to do.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

And looking after your horses and, and
you know, I, I think by their very nature,

you know, a a lot of us that get into this
work are, are fairly maverick and not.

Great lovers of bureaucracy and
authoritative systems, but there

comes to be a, there comes a
point where if we dunno how to

access them, we can't survive.

And again, I, I think there's
just a real need for you to give

this sort of mentorship to people.

You know, if you've got someone who's
standing in a field in Staffordshire doing

an amazing job, but no one knows who,
who that person is, are they gonna be

there in five years able to do it still
without knowing that you can find out.

And how would you even know
to what department to look up?

Emma Hutchison: I know because it's not
this, again, with us it's different.

Aberdeen City is different
to Aberdeen Shire,

right?

Emma Hutchison: It's just literally it.

You just have to keep on and keep asking
and keep inviting and just I mean things

like, I mean, we are a charity so we can
get, go to trust and grants, but again,

you need to build that relationship.

You are going to get regular funding from
those funders who understand, appreciate,

and have a relationship with you.

So it's just the relationship
building for an organization like

ours is really, really important.

And that's what's allowed us to
keep on and grow and diversify.

And again, you have to think out
the box just because you're working

with kids and that's what you love.

Funding school children for us
is virtually impossible because

everybody up here says that the kids
should be in school and it's funded

by the government and the school.

Well, it doesn't happen like that.

We all know that.

But the lottery and people like that,
they won't fund kids during school

hours that fund it outside school hours.

But our courses run during school hours.

So it's just, and I mean, I'm quite
happy because I say we, I've gone

down all sorts of different paths and
we've diversified and we've changed

this, and we've adapted that because
you have to or you won't survive.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, I do think people
should be in contact with you.

So can, and here's another question.

If people want mentorship in
how to grow and develop their

organizations like that, do you
offer trainings and courses in that?

Or is it more informal?

Can, but can people actually hire you
as a consultant for this kind of thing?

Because the, the, the kind of
information that you're giving Emma,

it's, it's very needed and there's a
bit of a paucity of people out there

who really can help people navigate.

So can they contact you and Yeah,

Emma Hutchison: absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: So, so
give us all the contacts.

Emma Hutchison: So our website
is www horseback org uk

Rupert Isaacson: horseback org uk.

Emma Hutchison: Yep.

My email is.

horseback.org

uk.

Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

Emma Hutchison: You can follow us
on Facebook again, just horseback

uk and we are on Instagram, we're
on TikTok, believe it or not.

So all of the socials, we're on all those.

We do try and keep those up to date so
that you one of the stories of what's

going on and everything, because again,
the funders like to see what's going on.

They like to see.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

It's all about story.

Yeah.

Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

Absolutely.

We'd love to hear from anybody.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Emma, it's brilliant.

I, I, I know you've got to go
and get on with your evening.

I hope that we can reconvene.

I'd like to have you back on.

I can think of more questions and
I know people have more questions

for you and and for Jay also, it
might be nice to get Jock mm-hmm.

And TAF on.

Yeah.

Because there's just
such a wealth of info.

So, maybe we can agree that this
is the first of two or three

rather than just a one-off.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Because people will
have, people will have questions.

So horseback do org.uk

and emma@horseback.org.uk.

All right.

Alright.

Well, until the next time, thank you so
much for sharing everything you've shared.

It's been.

Educational, not just interesting,
like I've learned like, well,

I'm thinking, oh, I've gotta get
a photography thing really good.

Alright.

Till the next time.

Emma Hutchison: Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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