Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back.

I've got two very interesting people.

I always have interesting
people obviously, but I've

still especially interesting.

Dr.

Rebecca and Dr.

Mark Avanco, sorry, Evko.

Thank you.

Who run Wilder Wood Niche Niche is a
bit south of Albuquerque in New Mexico.

And what makes them I think, a little
bit unique in the equine therapy world

or equine assisted world is that there's
very much an emphasis on female autism and

as an autism dad myself I've definitely
been aware over the years that many

women on the spectrum go under the radar.

And this can be good, this
can be bad, but it is a fact.

And where it can be good for
a while, it can be bad later.

Or even if people do learn to
cope without official supports it

can just be extremely stressful.

And I think it's it's very interesting
to be looking at a program that

really holds this front and center.

So Dr.

Rebecca, who started this program is on
the spectrum herself and is going to tell

us a little bit about her experience.

And her husband Mark, who's a physician
is also Neurodiverse with a DD.

So together they make
quite a discerning combo.

For how to approach th this particular
set of conditions and how to bring out the

best in people who might be struggling.

And they've, they're developing a rather
unique protocol, which they will explain.

So guys, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.

Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit
about your background, your childhood,

what your experience as a girl and a
young woman was with autism and why

it's led you to the work that you do?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yeah.

Sorry.

Sorry.

We've got open-ended questions like
that can be quite difficult for me.

Oh, no

Rupert Isaacson: doubt.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I, I'm gonna let Mark speak for me
just a little bit while I process that.

Okay.

If you don't mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

Dr. Marc Evanko:

whenever.

So, Rebecca, as Rupert, you and I had
talked a little bit prior to the, the,

the podcast Rebecca was in Queensland
raised by two adults who really

did not know anything about autism.

There was not much known about
autism, especially in females.

It was not even known about Asperger's
syndrome when she was a, a young child.

And so much of her experience
as a young child was being

asked, what's wrong with you?

And, and this has of course,
been quite impactful.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Well, I didn't want to, I
didn't want to do anything.

I didn't wanna do the social things.

All I wanted to do was, I was obsessed
with horses and I just wanted a horse.

And of course we lived in the city in,
at the time when I was very young, and

we didn't have, couldn't have a horse.

And I just, that was, that was my world.

And in fact, it was so much my world that
everyone referred to me as between me

and my sister, she was the musical one.

I was the horse one.

And then I think I was about
11 and my mother got a job up

in Queensland in the country.

And you know, I was very excited
about this because it country

meant that I could have a horse.

And so that was my only interest.

So we moved up there and I got, I, I got
my horses and it was, it was wonderful.

But my, my parents who had divorced.

It thought me very
strange, very problematic.

I had no interest in school.

In fact, I dropped out of school as soon
as I legally could at the age of 15.

And I just wanted to be with my horse.

And I would do things like go
riding my horse at two o'clock

in the morning outside and wander
around the town and on my horse.

I thought it was a completely
natural thing to do.

It was very, very atmospheric.

There was lots of mist and,
and it was just wonderful

having, I trusted my horses.

I had a great relationship with them.

I just got them.

And they thought that that was
very problematic and why wasn't

I going to parties and things?

And anyway they they eventually just
walked out on me, left me in this

little farm that I was on and at 15.

And initially I thought, I
thought it was wonderful.

You know, I was there on my own.

I.

You know, there was some bread in
the fridge and whatever, and jam and

eggs and things from the chickens.

And I, for a couple of
weeks I just lived there.

And then we got a knock on, I got
a knock on the door and it was the

landlord asking where the rent was.

And I didn't have any money for rent.

I didn't have any, any parents to go to.

I had no idea where they were.

This seems all very strange to some
people, but it seemed quite normal to me.

And anyway, it was quite traumatic
because I got evicted from that

place and I had to lose my horses
and, which was devastating to me.

So there I was without really with
probably a grade nine education,

you can call it that I didn't
really pay much attention to school.

And sort of had to survive on my own.

So I got a job at a gas company.

And I told, I've told Temple Grandin
this story too, because it's sort of

similar to things she'd experienced.

I got a job at a gas company that
provided natural gas to houses, and

I was stuck out the back organizing
these what they call dockets.

They were gas receipts.

When the natural gas was delivered, the
drivers would bring back these, these,

these dockets or these receipts, and
my job was to organize them and sort

them into date and customer order.

And it was considered a
terrible job, but I loved it.

Not only was I sort of on my own,
I didn't have to interact or do

the social stuff with people.

I could sit there and I, I developed
a system to organize all of these

gas dockets very, very quickly.

And they were just amazed and, and then
started to sort of promote me into jobs.

I didn't really want to do.

I didn't want to do customer facing work.

I wanted to earn enough money so I
could get my own place and get a horse.

That didn't really happen until much
later in my life when I realized I'd

have to go back to school and get an
education so I could get a job that

would actually pay enough money to, to
support horses which are very expensive.

And so, you know, long story short, I went
back to school and got my GED equivalent

and then got a bachelor's degree, and then
I got a master's degree and then a PhD.

And, and then I met my now husband
and we decided he had horses.

And so we decided we would start something
up to help autistic people the way

that my love of horses and my ability
to communicate with horses and his

also could help other autistic people.

And and so that's how Wildwood came about.

And for quite a while, we, we
offered what we called experiences

to people to experience some of that
interaction between horses and humans.

And then this realization that kind
of dawns on me after the fact as an

autistic person, I think, well, I, I'd
better get some sort of credentials

to be able to do therapy properly.

So I went back to school a final time
and earned a master's in clinical mental

health counseling with a focus on rehab
and autism and got that credential.

And so now we're starting our proper
equine therapy program based on not

only what I learned in that program
and I learned a lot, but also my

life and experience as an autistic
person and a horse woman and my

husband's life experience with horses
and as a neurodivergent person.

So I think that's probably
it in five minutes

Rupert Isaacson: with a few, a
few a few glaring chasms in the

narrative to which we must return.

So the, the.

Before I go over to you, mark
obviously to have one's parents

disappear like that is unusual.

A couple of immediate
questions come to mind.

The first one is, did your sister
go with them or did she stay with

you or did she go her own way?

I dunno if she was younger or older.

Well

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

she, she was five years older
and we never got on and she, she

didn't come to Queensland when,

Rupert Isaacson: ah, when I went there.

So she was okay.

She was already outta the picture?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yes, I she was

Rupert Isaacson: spectrum
too out of interest?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I don't think so.

She was very much like my mother and my
mother and I were like oil and water.

So I don't think she was, but I
haven't spoken to my sister for

I don't know how long, 35 years.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And when you say your parents
left, so your parents were

still together at that point?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

No, they, they weren't.

They, they, they were divorced.

It's very complicated, but I
outlined it in my memoir Joy.

The story is in, in that memoir.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

But those listeners who are coming to it
knew which most people will, and I'm sure

people will want to look at the book.

Had you then moved up to
Queensland only with your mother?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yes.

Yes.

And then my father.

And was your father in

Rupert Isaacson: any way
involved at that point, or had

he disappeared from the picture?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Well, my father had disappeared
quite a few times in my life and

went to Africa actually Rhodesia.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

And did some questionable things there.

I heard stories, but I don't know.

He was a very charismatic man.

I think he was autistic.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

And then he sort of appeared
back in our life and.

He ended up, my mother ended up
getting him a job also at what

became the University of Southern
Queensland in, in Toowoomba.

So they were both working at
that institution for a while.

Was your mother an

Rupert Isaacson: academic?

Were they, were they academics?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Was they were both academics.

Okay.

In what field?

Out

Rupert Isaacson: of interest,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

my father was in journalism.

Mm-hmm.

And my mother was in theater.

She was an actress.

She was actually trained
in London at the Old Vic.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

yeah.

So she was an actress and,
and very much an actress.

Very much lived her life as an actress.

And a very complicated, what some
people tell me is a very unusual

background, but it was normal to me.

It was a, it was normally
abnormal, I suppose.

This one.

Sure.

Rupert Isaacson: When, when, when?

So when she, when, so they left this
house that you were in with horses.

That's a fairly radical thing to do.

How, how, and you were in your
teens, you, you would think Yes.

That you, well, well, not, not
protective services or some equivalent

would've gotten involved at that point,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

or not?

Not quite.

Not quite.

They were living in separate places.

Mm.

I lived with my mother for a
while and then she said to my

father, I can't handle her.

You take her.

So he took me out on a farm and I
lived with him with these horses.

I see.

And he was more interested in, in talking
to the, the 19-year-old co-eds at the

university and having relationships with
those, with them than he was with me.

And then my mother got very sick and so
she went back, she went back to Sydney to

get treatment and I stayed with my father.

And her friends thought I
was a bad influence, so they

wouldn't tell me where she was.

So I, I, I lost contact with my mother
that way and then my mother died and then

my father just was not there one day.

So that's the background of,

Rupert Isaacson: do
you know where he went?

Was there, was there any
further story or was that it?

There was no further contact.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I found out about three years later
that he went off with some student

that he then married, even though he
wasn't divorced from his fourth wife.

And then he died.

So it's,

Rupert Isaacson: it's the stuff of movies.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yeah, I guess so.

But

Rupert Isaacson: the reason I think
it's worth, it's worth knowing the

details is that I know actually
quite a few people who have a not

dissimilar story, and I think it can be.

Both male and female.

And I think, you know, it's, it's
such a unique experience when somebody

finds themselves alone at that
young age and sort of makes it work.

And I think, you know, however difficult
that is at the time, what of course it

does is it gives that person incredible
resilience and a set of things.

Well,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I, I think, yes, I think so too.

And I think my, my autism, I
didn't know I was autistic.

I think it actually saved me.

I never got into drugs or alcohol.

Mm-hmm.

I never got into crime.

I never did any of that.

It was almost like very matter of
fact, okay, well I'm on my own.

I don't have any education.

I want to get back into horses.

I need money.

I better get a job.

What can I do?

Not much I can type, but yeah.

So I went and got a job and it was
just basically that black and white.

Rupert Isaacson: Was there a
point where you were homeless or

did you, did you manage to Oh,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

yes.

Oh yes, yes.

And how did you

Rupert Isaacson: survive
those, that period?

Well,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

you know, there were, there were,
there have always been very kind

people that I've come across in
my life who, for whatever reason

have been willing to help me.

So sometimes I would stay, there was
a, a lady at the corner store who I

got quite friendly with, and she let
me stay at her house for a week or so.

And then there was some, there
was an elderly couple who

had actually known my mother.

And I, I ran into them at a
shopping center and they asked me

how I was doing and I said, well,
I haven't got anywhere to live.

And they said, well, you can come
and stay with us for a little while.

So, you know, I had people like
that who were willing to help

me and wonderful professors.

Who recognized or saw something in
me, God knows what, but they saw

something in me and they encouraged me.

So they've been wonderful people.

So even in the midst of all of
this horribleness, there have been

amazing people who have helped me.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think this
is, this is a really interesting

topic because one of the things that
I realized when my son was diagnosed

and we were living actually on quite
an isolated ranch in outside of

Austin, Texas, far from any family,
you know, was the importance of tribe.

And I grew up with a family that
where there was a lot of extended.

Always a lot of extended family cousins
and cousins of cousins, and this one once

removed and that one 12 times removed.

And, you know, because South African
colonial families, which we were,

even though I was born and raised in
London, but there was a lot of back

and forth to Africa and constant
procession of relatives coming through.

When I had the experience of, you
know, oh gosh, now what am I gonna do?

I've got this, you know, nonverbal
kid who's just floating away.

And there is no tribe.

Fortunately I had a sort of a buddy
relationship with my next door neighbor

who even though we were massively
on other sides of the political

spectrum from each other we both like
to drink whiskey and we both like to

ride and we both like to go hunting.

And so we would do that
together from time to time.

He'd pull my leg about being a hippie
and I'd pull his leg about being you

know, whatever names I could come
up with for his conservativeness.

And we actually quite enjoyed that
interaction so that when my son

went through the fence and made a
relationship with his horse, instead

of saying, get off my property, or,
sorry, you can't interact with this

horse because he might fall off and,
you know, you might sue me or whatever.

There was this immediate like, yeah,
here's the key to the saddle room.

And it seems like you had similar
relationships with people.

And I wonder if this is something you talk
about in your programs, the importance of

community, the importance of relationship,
the importance of tribe and chosen family,

you know, even if your blood family isn't,
you know, quite meeting requirements.

Is this something which, 'cause it's
there in your story, you, you, you

emphasize at all in your programs.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Oh, yes, yes.

For autistic women, which is
our focus we very much emphasize

what tribe is a good word the
collective of other autistic women.

We tend to get each other in the same way
that autistic people and neurodivergent

people can connect with horses.

We tend to understand each other better.

It's very, very important to find
that sense of community and sense of

belonging, much like it's, it it is for
the horses in, in their own horse world.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I would

Rupert Isaacson: agree.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

You know, I think one of the worst
things that I can think of, well, apart

from frank abuse to horses, which is
just horrific, is you know, driving

past and seeing a horse standing on its
own without any other horses with it,

without any other horses to interact with.

I, I, I think they need
each other and I think that.

People need each other, and
particularly autistic people need

to find each other and connect with
each other because we get each other.

Rupert Isaacson: I would
wholeheartedly agree.

Now there's one last gap in the
narrative before I turn to you, mark.

It's rather a long way geographically
from Queensland to New Mexico.

So, the meeting of Mark and you guys
deciding to put this place together,

obviously there's a backstory there.

How did you end up in the USA and
how did you guys end up meeting?

Well,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

as briefly as possible one
of the ways that I survived

was when I was quite young.

I thought it might be quite
a good idea to get married.

I thought it would be a way
to, you know, find security.

And so I got married fairly young.

It was a dreadful mismatch.

He was a very good man, but he was into
car clubs and barbecues and I wasn't,

and when I went back to school, we
kind of separated and just realized

it was just hopeless at the time.

When I got my first it was getting my
first degree, the internet was brand new.

And being a cocky little undergraduate,
I had read an article by a professor

in the US in Texas that I disagreed
with, and at the bottom there was an

email address and I thought, oh, I'm
going to write to this person and

tell him just why I disagreed with his
article using this thing called email.

And so I did, and he wrote back
and that started a, a relationship.

So I ended up flying over to the
United States on a student visa.

I finished my baccalaureate degree
here and I married this professor.

That relationship didn't work out either.

And I divorced and I ended up I had my
PhD so I was doing various work around

the country and, and not in a relationship
convinced that I would never find anybody

who would be able to put up with me.

And I was seeing a psychologist at the
time and the psychologist suggested,

well, you know, why don't you just
give it one more go at finding someone?

I said, oh, it's, no, it's no point.

There's nobody who'll ever put up with me.

And so, you know, I went onto one
of those, I think it was match and

I put in my details and this picture
came up of this very attractive man

who was standing there with this jaw
dropping gorgeous Arabian trachea horse

and just looking, yeah, yeah, right.

Just looking into his eyes.

And I said, any man who
looks at a horse like that.

Is worth talking to.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, of course at the time
people had told me, well, you know,

you've got to create these profiles
to make people interested in you.

And, and I, and I was driving a Porsche at
the time because, hey, if I couldn't have

a horse, I could at least have horsepower.

So I had this picture of me sort
of leaning over this Porsche,

and I used it as my profile.

And so I contacted this guy.

He looked, he looked, he looks
at this profile and he thinks,

lady, you've got the wrong guy.

I don't care if I, I walk through,

Rupert Isaacson: you could
buy for that Porsche.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

You know, so, he sort of didn't,
you, he kind of wrote back and

said, I don't think, maybe, I don't
think I'm the right guy for you.

And, and yeah.

And, and then, i, you know,
I, I didn't really think any

of, anything of it really.

I just sort of kept you as my favorite.

And then you can finish the story.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Well, so in that story I looked
at this woman, beautiful woman

over the Porsche, and I thought
exactly what she just mentioned.

And I said, you know, your high
heels are not gonna work here.

You're we are, it just goes through mud
and, and you're gonna be cleaning poop.

You've got sand in your bed from

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

the p

Dr. Marc Evanko:

we've got three dogs, large
dogs, and they're on the bed

and they're not getting off.

And this was my profile because I had
been through a divorce and that's what

brought me to this very property with
Sayed and ritzy, Tennessee Walker.

And I just I could not.

Fathom that I would be together with
someone, but my friends said, why

don't you just try this after about
10 years of being completely single?

And I, no.

So that's when I said, no, no,
no, you're not the one for me.

And then to kind of turn the knife,
about two weeks later, I saw her thing

come up again on Matt and ISI said, am
I still your favorite question Mark?

And sh she emailed back on
Matt and said, will you?

Sure?

Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

And we sort of started talking from
there, and that's how that happened.

Rupert Isaacson: Cool.

That's a great story.

Thank you.

Mark?

Yes.

A DD also neurodivergent.

Can I have your bio leading up to this
point too, because I think it Sure.

Yeah.

It, it's, it's, it's unusual and
valuable to find a program that's

run by two neurodivergent people.

So yeah.

What's your story, what's your perspective

Dr. Marc Evanko:

much in contrast to Rebecca's
story in her early life?

I was raised by two parents
who were together for, until

they both died, essentially.

And large family or eight siblings.

Wow.

And where was that?

Where,

Rupert Isaacson: where
in the US was, right?

In

Dr. Marc Evanko:

New Mexico?

Yeah.

Okay.

In New Mexico, in Albuquerque.

And I had a relatively, what I
would consider to be a relatively

stable and quote, normal life.

Went to school, finished high school.

Straight to college, straight to medical
school almost straight to medical school.

Did two years of research before that.

Really never was com never
really rode horses until I

got back from medical school.

Didn't have the money.

Did you always want to, had
that always been a desire?

Interestingly enough, no.

I, I was a camp counselor at one
of the ca the A-Y-M-C-A camp close

by Albuquerque, about 70 miles.

So it's 80 kilometers away
from from Albuquerque.

And we would take the campers
out with the rancher who

donated his time and his horses.

And then I'd get to ride with the other
counselors through this beautiful meadow.

It was huge, actually a volcano crater.

Mm-hmm.

Up in the Hamus mountains.

He allowed us to do that.

But that was, that was
really my horse experience.

My mother rode horses and she
did dressage and she actually

had a a Tennessee walker as well.

And so it was interesting that when I
returned from medical school, I met my

first wife and she came with a horse.

And the horse that was born in the
stall next to hers is Saeed the

Trachea Arab that Rebecca mentioned.

I figured if I was gonna.

Learn how to ride a horse.

I wanted to learn how to ride a horse
well and not need to do what many

western riders do around here, which
is muscle the horse around, and use

the bit as a weapon rather than as a,
as a kind and gentle way to ask the

horse to follow you in that dance.

So I started taking dressage
lessons with a green 2-year-old

horse who was extremely athletic,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

very smart,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

and very smart.

And I'm a green rider on a green horse.

It's not the best combination.

Quite a way

Rupert Isaacson: to learn,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

quite a way to learn green.

Green equals black and blue.

Yeah, that's, that is right.

And so we together went through three
or four instructors before we met

James, our, our current James Reman,
who is our now Ecol Dete instructor.

And he took me and sayed up to
the fourth level of dressage and

we're very grateful for that.

It's interesting though, because one of
the things I learned about dressage is

that it isn't necessarily, especially
in the competitive aspects of dressage,

not necessarily the kindest to the

Rupert Isaacson: horse.

Sure.

Well, anything done competitively
becomes a caricature of itself.

Yeah.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Yes.

And that's, I, I did not realize
that until we started showing.

And James is like, is this what?

And he knew at that time that that
was really not what he wanted to do.

He wanted to do classical, true classical
dressage, but could not find it.

Here.

And when he met and, and, and learned
about ate immediately he switched

and is now a a trainer, one of only
a handful in the United States.

And luckily he is right next
door to us here, down in Peralta.

So that's my horse experience.

We, I.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, let's talk
a bit about your a DD and also

what kind of physician are you
and how does that I'm a, I'm a gp.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

I, I have done a, a varied
amount of activities as a gp.

It's interesting how times have changed.

I, early in my career did ER and urgent
care and ICU work simply because of

the way we were able to do things
then, and the liability and all

of those things that have changed.

So I have a lot of experience in a
lot of different areas of medicine

Rupert Isaacson: do too.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

My training as an osteopathic
physician here in America actually

gives me a different view of the.

Human condition than many
allopathic physicians.

And I, I chose osteopathy over the
allopathic profession because I felt it

was a much more comprehensive way to look
at the human condition and, and medicine.

And so that's, that's why
I'm a do and, and not an md.

Got it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that brings, I
think, quite a holistic perspective.

Tell us a bit about your a DD.

When, when did you realize you were a DD?

How has it impacted your life?

Do you feel, do you, do you
consider it a superpower?

Do you consider it disorder?

What, what's your take?

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Like any, okay.

So the first question is how do I,
how did I learn that I was a DD?

Well, A DHD it was actually, I was
probably, and from the time I was

able to remember two, three years old
my mother would frequently ask me.

Tell me, sit down and be still,
sit down there and be still.

And did that become the litany
for your life after that?

That was kind of the litany for my life.

And I'm, I'm sitting here right now
as still as I can be, but my legs are

going, having to sit on your hands.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so that was how I learned to do
the compensatory skills that I needed

to calm, actually calm my mind enough
that I could take in information and

be able to, without medications do what
I did academically and scholastically

and, and be able to take things in.

But please don't ask me.

To remember something five
minutes later, because I won't.

If you and I are talking and
we have would you go get this?

Okay, I'll do it in just a minute.

It doesn't get done.

Mark, take your pills this month.

Did you take your pills?

I think I did.

Here.

Here's your pill.

You put 'em out because

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I put 'em out for you.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Right?

That's the only way it'll happen.

I mean, I may remember this evening
because I walked by the cabinet where, you

know, the pills are, but the story that
I would tell my clients and my patients

to help them diagnose themselves as a DD
is my story about very common in my life.

I need to rake the leaves out in the yard.

So I'm on my way to the garage to get the
rake, and I pass by the hose that hasn't

been wound up for three or four days.

So I start winding the hose up and then I
note, I remember that the, the spray thing

on the end of the hose is not is broken.

So I need to go to the,
the, the Home Depot.

Home Depot to get another one of those.

So I'm on my go to Home Depot and
I get four other items and I'm on

my way back and think I didn't get
the thing for the hose and, but

what was I originally going to do?

You?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so this is my life.

I'll put a tool down.

And

where did it go?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Whereas I, in contrast, would
have the compensatory strategy

of using a mole skin to plan.

Tomorrow I'm going to rake
the leaves at nine o'clock.

So at nine o'clock I go
out to rake the leaves.

Don't you dare disturb me.

Don't change my plans.

Don't do anything differently.

I'm raking leaves from nine to nine 50

Dr. Marc Evanko:

and I'm, I'm very good as long
as there is someone in practice.

For instance, my MAs, my front
office people would just say,

doctor, go into room six.

Okay.

That I could do and that I could
focus on my client, my patient,

but outside of that room going
in the halls and out distraction.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

But I, I'd like to jump in here if I may.

You talked about compensator
strategies, and I think that

was incredibly important to me.

My experiences may have been.

Unusual and disturbing and upsetting,
but it taught me a whole lot.

I had to be, I had to take care of myself
because there was nobody else to do it.

I had to develop strategies to do that.

And Temple Gran talks
about this a lot too.

She expresses concern about autistic
kids not being given enough, you

know, responsibility to be able to
develop these alternative strategies.

Yeah.

So I developed very specific ways of
doing things that I maintain to this day,

very complicated executive functioning
setups that work for me that I developed

that people look at and say, oh my God,
look at what you do to get this done.

But it gets things done and it,
it taught me that I had to do it.

So I think that's something also
that we, we, you know, emphasize

if, if a client comes in contact
with a horse, if they're afraid.

They don't really know what to do.

I'm not gonna stand there
and tell them how to do it.

We will just stand in silence and
wait until there is some form of

communication, something that happens
which we can then leverage and

say, did you notice this happening?

You can work out how to
do this on your own terms.

And I think that that's a really important
phrase for autistic people learning to

do things, but on your own terms, rather
than trying to get to some non-autistic

ideal you'll never reach anyway.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I, I
think I'm in agreement there.

With all our programs, you know, it, it's
predicated on something called Follow the

Child and you could also replace the word
child with adult or yourself or whatever.

But the idea is intrinsic motivation
has to be, has to be the way.

No amount of good boys gold stars.

Or the other kind of motivation,
which is course negative.

We'll get the job done.

And it was Temple Grandin actually
who schooled me very early, and that's

the Rupert, you've got to follow the
child physically, emotionally, which

means sensorily and and intellectually
through what they're interested in.

And it made so much sense to me.

They was like, yep, absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Got it.

And I just did that.

And of course, everything that we
do flows from there, so I'm, I'm

right with you there, you know.

Quickly before we, I want to move on to
your programs, but mark, just quickly

with you, when, when were you, were you
diagnosed with a DHD at a certain point?

And then you mentioned medications,
but you also mentioned no medications.

I presume that as a boy, if you
had been a boy now at school, you'd

have been medicated, like boom.

Did you then come to be medicated
later or did you manage to avoid

medications or, you know what, no.

No,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

I've, I've never been medicated.

But the

Rupert Isaacson: pills you

Dr. Marc Evanko:

were referring to are not a DD pills?

No, no.

I, oh, no,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

they're not.

No,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

it's interesting.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

He's racked up his body
through falling off horses so

Dr. Marc Evanko:

well, and motorcycles and, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

No, no, no, no.

I'm,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

I'm kidding.

I'm kidding.

Yeah.

But so, the answer is I've
never been medicated for A DHD.

Yeah.

I the, the support that I got and,
and just being accepted, interestingly

enough by family and, and I, I'm
sure I had friends in, in school,

high school who were also, and
we, we just kind of were there.

It's interesting because it, there was
much more of a, it is a little weird, but.

He's okay.

Yeah.

He's not hurting anything.

And instead of this confirmation
we have to conform and have this

child conform to the way things are.

That is, that seems to be
going on a lot more these days.

So here's the medication.

Medications can be very effective tools
for all kinds of different conditions.

I mean, I am on high blood pressure
pills now that I was got long COVID, I

was stricken with COVID from the, when
I was working at urgent care early on

in the, in the COVID circumstances.

I got COVID before there was even testing
for it, and ended up in the emergency room

myself with blood pressures in the, in
the two hundreds, over hundreds, whereas

a week before I was on zero medications,
zero except for some ibuprofen.

Got it.

So, those are the medications I'm on.

And when did you get

Rupert Isaacson: your diagnosis?

I'm self-diagnosed.

Okay.

And similarly, Rebecca, were
you self-diagnosed or did

someone give you a diagnosis?

If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

developed in conjunction with Dr.

Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

No, I had a, I had a breakdown.

I was working as a dean, a college dean,
and I, I just reached a point where I

just couldn't do it anymore and I broke
down and was weeping under my desk.

So.

I got to see a psychologist, and
fortunately this, I lucked out.

There was a woman psychologist who
knew something about autism in women.

And so I was talking to her and
she brought it up and she said,

you know, Rebecca, I'd like
to talk with you about autism.

And I didn't believe it.

I said, don't be ridiculous.

No

Rupert Isaacson: one else had
had suggested that to you before?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

No.

I was diagnosed as a child with childhood
schizophrenia because the psychiatrist,

they always said something was, there's
something wrong with that child.

That was my mother's constant refrain.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

And the psychiatrist had asked me
in the office, I think, I don't

know, I was about nine or something,
you know, do you hear voices?

And I was very literal.

And, you know, I said yes, because,
you know, of course I heard his

voice and I heard people speaking.

There was nothing wrong with my hearing.

Right.

And so I was promptly, you
know, the kind of, how old

Rupert Isaacson: were you at that time?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

About nine.

Yeah.

And that diagnosis was
absolutely incorrect.

Because I didn't, I didn't hear the
types of voices that he was talking.

I didn't have delusions.

I didn't have, you know, anything.

I was very introverted.

I just wanted to be around horses.

So they saw that as, as being kind of,
you know, not wanting to be around people.

And but anyway, so, you know, I hadn't, I
always knew I was kind of different, but

when this psychologist talked about it,
I, I, I started to learn more about it.

And then I was rediagnosed
when I came to New Mexico.

Because I wanted some accommodations
for my second master's program, right.

So I was rediagnosed by another
psychologist with whom I work now

actually, and and that so diagnosed twice.

But yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: it's
interesting the women that,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

go ahead.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

No,

Rupert Isaacson: you
go ahead and then I'll,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

well, the, the women that we have seen
as part of this major research project

to develop this new instrument, that
is one of the most common things that

we hear, this history of misdiagnoses.

You know, everything ranging from
schizophrenia anxiety, depression,

borderline personality disorder,
bipolar disorder, O-C-D-O-C-D,

or social anxiety disorder.

All of these disorders, some of them
certainly can exist co-occurring with

autism, but just a history of seeking
answers without really getting anywhere.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I agree.

I, I think.

When it comes to the misdiagnosis and
the work that I've done, it definitely

seems to be a more female thing.

Almost as if when girls are at
school age, it might be changing.

Now the assumptions of
autism tend to go to boys.

Mm-hmm.

Unless there's something, you know, it is
like super severe, not speaking at all.

Okay, fine then.

But if it's, if it's anything mild than
that and then yeah, there's, there's

a lot of flying under the radar or as
you say, getting these false diagnoses.

And one of the things which I often find

I can understand it, but it's
a symptom actually of how

mentally ill our society is.

I think in, in general, is the
fact that all of these things have

a d on the end of them disorder.

You know, I spent so much
time in the Kalahari.

I'm sure that I'm a DD or A DHD
but I regard it as something that

allows me to have parallel careers.

Live parallel lives.

Yeah.

I'm forgetful.

Yeah.

I'm absent minded.

I mean, you know, you could have described
me, mark with your thing of, of those

distractions, but probably, actually
I'll get all of those things done.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

If you look at the end of the month,
actually I've got them all done.

It's just the timeframe might
have been a bit strange.

But that allows me to do things like
make a film and write a book and train

a horse and go travel over there and
kind of keep track even, even though

I lose track in the short term.

I can kind of keep track.

And when I was with the sun, with the
Bushman in the Kalahari, you know,

and I was observing a lot of hunting
and gathering, I realize, oh, you have

to be like that because you have to
constantly adapt to new circumstances.

When you are hunting, you know, the
wind changes, the, suddenly there's

elephants over there you know, for
a, a bazillion reasons you might have

to stop on the fly and do something
else and have 10 other plans.

You know, when people joke about, oh,
squirrel, it's like, well, yes, yes,

that squirrel might be your lunch.

You know, and if you, so if you are
walking to see your friend and you

notice antelope tracks, you're going
to, sorry about the visit, but I'm on

these tracks now because if I can get
that antelope, actually I'll feed you.

And this, this is, so, these things
aren't disorders unless one is

in a society, which where this
personality type is not valued.

Or not understood.

And then sure.

It's regarded as a, as a
disorder because then there's

such a narrow economic 'cause.

It really comes down to economics.

I think there's just such a narrow
economic, participatory field, if

you like, that anything that isn't,
as you say, completely within that

field, gets labeled a disorder.

But if it, if these things were all
disorders, given that they, people have

had these since there were people, then
we'd be a very inefficient species.

But we're not, we're the dominant species.

So presumably there's more to
these things than meets the eye.

But I I, I absolutely agree with you on
the female misdiagnosis and the confusion

and the misery that this can cause.

And the loss of self-confidence and
the loss of ability to swim in the

world because you're always being
told you're using the wrong stroke.

So with that in mind, go ahead.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Sorry to one of your points and that
just, just made one of the metaphors

that I have come up with is what,
what brand of phone do you use?

I use a Samsung.

A Samsung.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Uhhuh an

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Android.

So do we actually, not a Samsung,
but well, you've got a Samsung, I

think there's, there's basically
two different operating systems.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Both of them work.

Yeah.

Samsung, you can do everything on
a Samsung essentially, that you

can do on an Apple, an iPhone.

Mm-hmm.

Nothing wrong with either phone.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

that's, that's the metaphor.

I agree.

Rupert Isaacson: All
right, so here you are.

You decide, okay.

You know, Rebecca, you've had this
life experience and at what point.

Do you guys decide?

Actually, yeah.

Let's start a, let's start something
therapeutic with the fact that we,

'cause you've both got jobs, you've
both got careers at this point.

You know, you, you've, and you,
Rebecca, you've achieved your goal.

Your, you have a home, you have
horses, you have a good relationship.

So why then go the ex this extra
mile and start wilder wood.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Well, we wanted to find a way
to highlight that connection

that we both believe exists, can
exist between horses and humans.

We wanted to do something to help other
people, especially autistic people.

And so how it all started is I
first sought certification through

a very well-known certifying
organization because I thought that

would be a helpful thing to do.

And that organization actually
had training on autism and the

therapeutic riding relationship.

So I started enrolling in that and I
was getting more and more frustrated.

And Mark was noticing that.

And he said, you know, what's wrong?

I thought you wanted to do this.

And I said, well, what they're teaching
is not gonna work for autistic people.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

It's just not gonna work.

It's not gonna work for
me and I'm not doing this.

So there's that black and
white autistic thinking.

I shut it down.

And you know, so I actually, and I called
them and I said, you know, when you were

designing this program, did, did you get
actually any input from autistic people?

And there was this pause on
the phone and they said, oh.

That would probably have been a good idea.

And I said, yes, it would have.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, at least they
were honest enough to say that they were

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

honest.

They were very honest.

And, and then I just said to
Mark, look, I don't wanna do this.

I, I wanna combine everything that
we've done, all of our life experiences,

our horse knowledge and whatever.

I just wanna do something based
on what we do, what we know,

and, and put put it out there.

And so that's, that's when it started.

It started really with a laptop in our
living room and deciding to do this.

And it's grown from there and evolved
as any healthy organization does.

Hmm.

And and now we're shifting off into
this research component and this equine

EQU therapy and counseling component.

So it's, it's grown up, up to there.

Rupert Isaacson: It's great.

You know, just to your point, I'm
gonna ask you to go through your,

your, your three main, programs here.

But just quickly before I do, it's
very interesting this point about

not looking to the people that have
the condition to advise one about

how to approach the condition.

You know, because my
background is journalism.

So like when I, I tried a BA other
types of things too observed very

quickly that they weren't working
and then thought, well, okay, fine.

And it hadn't occurred to me to do
anything with horses, despite the

fact that I'm professional horseman.

'cause my son's behaviors were so
erratic, I thought he wasn't safe around

sport horses, which is what I was doing.

And I was probably right
actually at that time.

He wasn't.

He created his own relationship with
the Mayor Betsy, as I, as I spoke,

you know, and then we followed that
and that was a very different path.

But what I did do when I
said, okay, well fine, I.

I dunno what I, I, I did what the
people told me to do, didn't work.

So now what do I do?

It was the obvious thing to me to
do to reach out to Temple Grand.

It's like, well there's someone with
autism who started nonverbal, like

my son pooing in her pants, wiping
it on the walls just like my son.

And now she's made it.

Well that's the obvious person
who, like, who else are you

gonna go to for mentorships?

So I sat in an office with her and
said, how does my son become you?

And she said, do three things.

I did 'em and everything went from there.

But I remember going back to the other
therapist and saying, this is what I went

and did and getting it thrown back at
me that I was like some terrible parent.

And I was like, well, based
on what you know, okay, fine.

Let's just go our separate ways.

Fast forward 20 years.

Rowan, my son last year was actually
hired as a consultant by a study at

Manchester Metropolitan University in
the UK to consult on how to make equine

therapies better for autistic people.

And he was one of our.

Of a group of autistic consultants, of
people who'd, who'd actually had a lot

of equine therapeutic approaches, and
what did they think could work better

and what could be improved, and which,
you know, it's such a rational, insane

approach, but it's taken 20 years.

And he now is on another panel for that.

And he helps me do trainings and he
explains to parents and practitioners.

But of course, as you know, this
wasn't around back in the day.

It was everyone and their opinion.

And you either were lucky enough to luck
into an opinion that held water or like

most opinions, opinions that that didn't.

So now you are one of the
evidence-based partly through your

own experience programs out there.

You've got, it was on your website.

You've got tism, you've got EQU
therapy, and you've got Radiance, a

research tool with a w on the front.

Named after a horse that you have
that's so a warm blood of the same name.

Can you just talk us through, A
lot of listeners will want to know

what your programs consist of.

So can we start with Tism, then go to
EQU Therapy and then go to the Radiance?

Would that be all right?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

We certainly can.

Jism is kind of an overarching principle.

There is a connection between there.

There are certain similarities
between autistic people and horses.

I'll give you one example, parallelism.

Often you'll see horses out in the field
who are communicating quite effectively

with each other, but they're parallel.

They're walking parallel, they're
interacting on a parallel basis.

Autistic people tend to do that too.

We don't need to be, you know, in your
face making eye contact talking with you.

I'm quite happy to sit here parallel to my
husband and do my work and not necessarily

interact and I'm having a great time.

You know, that's one example of it.

So it's based on a premise that
there are similarities between the

autistic way of viewing the world and
an equine way of viewing the world.

It started off with that as
experiences based on that idea, we

did not do therapy because I was not
credentialed at that time to offer it.

So it was more of a
interaction with horses just.

Interacting in the way that felt
right for the person and the horse.

So autism as a concept is kind of a
principle more so than a program now.

I am now qualified.

I have the master's in counseling
and I have designed a program

called Counseling and EQU Therapy.

It offers both, it offers equine
assisted therapy and also counseling

that can take place without the horse.

So it's kind of a dual counseling
approach, but it is absolutely steep in

autistic knowledge, autistic preferences,
honoring autistic communication,

honoring equine interaction.

And so clients can choose to do
either the equine counseling, the

EQU therapy is entirely ground based.

We incorporate the principles
of leisure tape interaction.

So acknowledging the horse as a
partner, recognizing the importance

of communication, however that
takes place not about structured

rules in terms of this is the way
the horse is going to behave, but

what communication can we engage in?

What feelings and emotions rise out of
that engagement and how can we analyze and

assess and synthesize those to make sense
in a broader context to someone's life?

That those are the principles of the, of
the F1 therapy and also the counseling

as well specializing in autistic women.

And because of that, there is a large
grief component that is, that is addressed

because grief is one of the strongest
feelings that can be present in a

late diagnosed autistic woman's life.

Grief over lost opportunity.

Grief over spending a lifetime thinking
there's something wrong with me.

Grief in having to constantly mask
and camouflage and not be authentic.

All of that needs to be worked through,
particularly after a diagnosis.

So it's very much a niche counseling base.

And like most things I do in my life,
I like to say slightly north of normal.

It's unusual.

A lot of it is based on, you know,
as you were talking about what feels

right in this situation and, you
know, yes, learn and listen from

others and take pieces of it, but put
it together in your own unique way.

That's how you can make
a, a, a difference.

I think that's how you can advance
whatever it is that you're doing.

As far as the radiance is concerned,
that's our research arm of what we do.

And we were very concerned about
the standard and quality and

caliber of assessment instruments
to identify autism in women.

So about four and a half years ago,
we decided to change that and you

know, based on our knowledge and
understanding, my PhD unwittingly looked

at aspects of autistic communication.

I didn't know it at the time, but it did.

We came up with the idea to develop not
only a new instrument to psychometrically

assess for autism in women, but develop
a new protocol around it as well.

So we came up with a survey instrument
of 150 items of childhood and adulthood,

and we came initially started with an
interview based assessment protocol.

We quickly realized the interview
based was not going to work.

Rupert Isaacson: Why not?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

'Cause it's an interview is based
on spontaneity, it's based on social

communication, principles of interaction.

Okay.

So these are things that autistic women, a

Rupert Isaacson: written interview.

This was actually a
face-to-face interview.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Face-to-face interview.

Yes, it was.

It was, it was a struggle.

But this is the way the paradigm is.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

It's based on observation.

It's based on interview.

So I went back again to my own background.

My DA's in English, my masters in rhetoric
and composition and literary analysis,

and my PhD's in cognitive linguistics.

So I went back to that and I said to Mark,
we need to do away with the interview.

We need to construct, have them
construct a narrative and analyze

that narrative through critical
discourse theory to bring out themes

of what constitutes female autism.

Build our instrument and
our protocol around that.

So we solicited participants and after
four years now we've got over 900

assessments that we've done with input
and narratives from over 900 autistic

women across the world that have enabled
us to identify recurring themes of

what autism looks like in women, and
adjust and create this instrument and

protocol of assessment that is much
more finely nuanced to what's actually

going on in autistic women's lives.

We're very excited about it.

Not many other people have been
excited about it because it's a

huge diversion from the paradigm.

The so-called gold standard instruments
we think are quite problematic.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you gimme an example
of, of what's called what people consider

at the moment a gold standard instrument,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

the A OS two module four, the A DIR
interview based and what and how,

Rupert Isaacson: and because they're
based on face-to-face interviews or

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

they're based on neurotypical norms that
were standardized on male autistics.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Also on observation, there's a
component of the ADOS two that involves

storytelling and it's based on an
outdated understanding that autistic

people do not and cannot have empathy.

Ah, that okay.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Yeah,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

there was, there has been something
out of the University of Newcastle

in the uk called the A CIA interview
protocol that we were actually

trained on, and it's a step forward.

It does actually acknowledge
some of the things about autistic

people, but it's interview based.

Mm.

And it doesn't have a compendium
instrument that has been normed

on autistic women, 900 of them.

So we are very excited about the radiance.

We've just finished phase two
which means we're not accepting any

more participants that we figured.

I think 938 getting close to
is what we're at right now.

So we're just about to start venturing
into clinical trial where we have

with clinicians, and I think we've got
about 16, who are interested so far

in actually taking this instrument and
protocol into their own practice and,

and using it in the field to assess.

As part of that phase three,
we'll get that data back, make

modifications if necessary.

I'd like to think there will be no
modifications, but there will be.

And then once that's completed,
then that instrument will be ready

to publish and hopefully be used.

So we get to the point where women who
think they're autistic, say, I want

a practitioner who uses the Radiance
instrument and protocol to assess me.

Rupert Isaacson: So it would
effectively be a diagnostic.

It's a diagnostic tool.

It

Dr. Marc Evanko:

absolutely,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Let me just put one point in about the
Radiance that really sets it apart from

even the other surveys that are done.

First point is that there's no other
survey that was devised by Autistics.

They're, they're all
devised by non autistics,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

The.

One huge problematic part of any
of the surveys that we actually use

parallel to the Radiance survey is
the Likert Scale where people are

putting themselves to numbers very
problematic, a as, almost as problematic

as the the interview in that the, the
client gets caught between numbers.

I'm not really a four, but
I'm not a three either.

Sometimes I'm a two and
sometimes I'm a two.

And depending on the context, I could
even be a one on this particular.

And so struggling through those surveys.

Mm.

Which we are delivering actually
side by side with the ratings because

they are, quote, the gold standard.

They get to the radiance, which is
a true false format of response.

So an an item on the radiance may say
I what would be an example I liked?

I only wore one color or did not,
did not like a certain color.

Very much.

True or false?

Yes or no?

Well, yes.

I, I mostly wore black when I
was in, in, in elementary school.

I just didn't care about picking
up any colors or matching.

Didn't like it would be
the comment that we got.

That true false is so much more quick
to, to come up with the actual response.

Our, we time it and our clients go
through a 65 item, non-autistic derived.

Likert scale based survey that
the 150 item radiance is done in

approximately half the time because
the answer comes so much more quickly.

And the relief that our clients express
immediately following the radiance

versus struggling through the non.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yeah, there's, I I think two of
the things that comments that we

get that's so heartening to us is
we often, very often get women who

say, oh my God, I feel so heard.

I feel so seen.

And we say, well, yes, of course you
do, because this has been, this has been

created by, by input from autistic women.

And the other question we get is,
doesn't everybody feel like this?

Doesn't everybody answer true to these?

And you know, of course in the,
in the scope of our research, we

administer it to non-autistic people.

The answer is no.

No.

It's quite distinct.

The difference between an autistic
response to a non-autistic response

and the true falses are weighted.

They're, they're weighted depending
on the, the research that we did

based on the responses of non-autistic
people and autistic people.

So it's a quite a
complicated scoring system.

But it's just fascinating to us that
these women think almost uniformly,

doesn't everybody think like this?

And it's a bit like that,
that line from Temple Grand.

And when she was in that, in the
film that was made about her, the

realization, the same realization.

Doesn't everybody think like me?

Dr. Marc Evanko:

No.

No, they don't.

She was 35 years old.

She said before she understood that
not everybody thought this way.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm, yep.

Theory of mind.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Doesn't, doesn't come.

Naturally as one.

No.

No, absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's often one of the
things that is where people mistake lack.

You know, the mistake about
lack of empathy I think is

actually more accurately
perhaps impaired theory of mind.

But that doesn't mean lack of empathy.

That just means a different
way of expressing empathy.

And yes, I remember, you know, back
in our early days with autism, hearing

that kind of lack of empathy thing,
thinking I have this very loving

little boy who yes, you know, but
who would express it differently?

And definitely we have to
help him with theory of mind.

But that's a cognitive thing.

That's not an emotional response.

The emotional response is right
there, and it's bang, accurate.

You know, he's not a psychopath.

He's just expresses it differently.

And I've, I remember finding that.

Perplexing that.

And then I say, ah, is this because in
fact, a lot of people doing the diagnoses

are in fact and perhaps a lot of these
tools were in fact created by Asperger's

men who might have had difficulty
themselves with some theory of mind and

might have had a somewhat rigid worldview.

I mean, I'm thinking about
people like Lova, you know,

who, who invented, you know?

Oh, must must.

You know, I, I, I had a really
interesting interaction years ago.

I was in Houston and we were doing
some autism thing or other, and I was

talking about the not great experiences
I'd had with a BA and somebody said I

was lo VA's housemate at university.

Oh, wow.

85-year-old guy.

Yeah.

And I was like, what are the odds?

I said, well, tell him.

He said, well, Rupert, he was obviously,
obviously Asperger's, and he himself had,

you know, suffered a fair or bit, and
then he'd grown into a very big man who

could use himself very forcefully and.

Was just very interested that
after the war, this new topic

of autism, and then there was
Asperger himself ever in Austria.

And he saw this as an opportunity, but
he didn't care from children at all.

You know, it was just a way to
make a mark within psychology.

But was he on the spectrum?

Probably.

You know, that's, that's what he said.

And But had he been
somewhat brutalized Yes.

And therefore, was that how he
was going to approach things?

Sure.

'cause he was a product at the time.

And well, the rest is what we know,
but it's, it's interesting that so

of course, you know, being as you
know, you know, being autistic doesn't

make one a saint or a sinner, it
just makes one what one is autistic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and but it's, what's clear is
that the inability to see nuance, I agree

with you, does seem to be weirdly built
into the frameworks of the diagnostic

tools and of most of the therapies.

Mm-hmm.

And.

Given that we're dealing with humans
who, as you say, you know, if you

give them, what, what number are you?

They'll say, well, on Tuesday it's one,
but you know, by Thursday it has to

be six because of my menstrual cycle.

Or the fact that we've got, you know,
a, a, a low atmospheric pressure or

I ended up in this situation with,
you know, this authority figure,

which automatically presses my
amygdala, so therefore I become a two.

You know, and then you could look at that
and say, well, that's anybody, right?

So, yes.

'cause we're all human.

So if we're autistic human or
non-autistic human, we're still human.

So I think if the, if, if the aliens were
to come down and look at us and go, well,

okay, that one's got a diagnosis and
that one doesn't, but, you know, they all

look kind of the same and they kind of,
you know, get upset about this and, you

know, not upset about that more or less.

And, you know, it, it shows that they
are more nuances and personality types,

I think than, but, but, but we can
make too much or too little of them.

But I, but I agree with you.

When it's about actually trying to
do a diagnostic tool, then that's

when one has to dive into the
nuance and make it a huge thing.

Otherwise, how can it work?

Particularly if it's gonna
work across the board.

The, the, the, the question that
comes up for me when you're describing

this, of course, is I'm thinking,
well, this of course would work

for presumably male autistic people
as well as female autistic people.

So the radiance think surely
that's something that could

work across the genders.

Or do you think it's specifically female?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Well, we started off by including
males and in, in the, in the

first phase of the research.

And then we decided we're
just gonna focus on females.

So yes, we have used the radiance
to assess males, not, not very

many compared to the females.

And I think that as an instrument, yes,
it could be used, conceivably be used

it's an adult assessment instrument.

But I, I can say that our focus and
our interest is on autistic females.

Yeah.

And as they present.

So yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think though,
perhaps, you know, if we look forward

20 years and let's say Radiance is, you
know, it's a thing by then and it's a

diagnostic tool, do you think there's
just a natural evolution that then there

would be a radiance for men as well?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I, I'd like to see that.

I think that that's probably an, an
area that someone else could take on.

Mm-hmm.

You know, at our age, I think
we're sort of coming to the end

of our research careers and this
that contribute the radiance is

something as our contribution to it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I, I certainly hope that there
would be more research that's done that's

based on input from the people who are
going to be served by the instrument.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

I, I'd like to throw in a point
about this is, is that the

diagnosis of males has
largely molded the stereotype.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

And so males are generally.

Much more easily diagnosed.

Not that they're more in number
necessarily, it's just that they are

looked for much earlier in their lives.

One of the thoughts about that is because
females actually are much more easily

mask and learn these nuances, don't know
what to do about it, but know how to

mask themselves so that, as you mentioned
earlier, they fly under the radar

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

As until about middle school,
seventh, sixth grade, when the social

pressures really start kicking in.

Mm mm-hmm.

And it becomes way more than that
female, that girl can handle.

And she comes home.

After having been so smiley and so
wonderful at school, and the teachers all

love her and she's extremely smart and
comes home and melts down at four o'clock,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

meltdown

Dr. Marc Evanko:

in the afternoon and can't
communicate with her parents and

is throwing things and is having
fits over, I can't do this anymore.

That wasn't me at

Rupert Isaacson: all.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Yeah, no.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: So here's the question.

Yeah, I, I totally, I
totally see the logic.

Here's a question, practical question.

So, let's say that same goal in a couple
of years goes through a radiance, diag

assessment and gets the diagnosis.

What could, particularly within the
American system, what could change?

For her because of that, that
would be to her advantage.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

We can testimonials, we, we, we've
actually got unsolicited emails back from

our clients, not just at, at the age that
you're talking about, but across ages.

Saying, I can't believe
how it's changed my,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

it's changed everything,

Dr. Marc Evanko:

perception of myself and
everything around me.

And I am, I am so able to now
navigate simply because someone

has heard me the imposter syndrome.

Am I or am I not autistic?

I'm acting this way.

Well, maybe I am a borderline personality.

I've been told that it doesn't, I've
looked it up, it doesn't fit well, but.

And then I started, somebody told me,
a counselor told me I may be autistic.

So I did my deep dive in autism.

And by gosh, it, that really seems to fix,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

explain so much.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

And now I can ask for just incandescent
light in, you know, I, I know, I know why

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

flu restin like bothers me so much.

I know why I can't spontaneously
contribute to these meetings at work.

I know why I prefer to send email
than the phone, and I'm okay.

I, I'm okay.

Somebody asked me that question actually.

They once, they said, well, what'd
you bother getting a diagnosis for?

You're not gonna be
able to access services.

It's not gonna change anything.

You know, you're 49 or whatever it is.

Why'd you do it?

What difference does it make?

And I thought about this question
and I said it changed everything.

It changed everything

Rupert Isaacson: that
I can absolutely see.

Yeah, no, that, that
makes perfect sense to me.

Self-advocacy effectively.

And definitely within our
programs, self-advocacy is always

kind of what we're aiming for.

That somebody can say,
okay, look, this is me.

This is what I'm gonna need.

But in return, if you can accommodate
me here with these environmental

things, these sensory things, et cetera,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I can my best, well, not up my best.

Well, not so much self-advocacy
as it as it was self-understanding

for the first time in my life.

Mm-hmm.

I could look at myself and say,
there's nothing wrong with you

after being told my entire life.

Mm-hmm.

There's something wrong with you.

You don't fit in.

You are the constant.

You are the one who's got
the broken relationships.

You are the one who can't keep a job.

You are the one who can't stay at school.

You are a problem.

For the first time, I said
to myself, I'm not a problem.

I'm autistic.

I think differently.

It was right.

No life changing.

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Take it from there.

I'm thinking about the girl that
you've just described, who, who's

melting down when she gets home from
school because school is school.

It's one of the reasons, for example,
why we have this program called Movement

Method, which was originally a homeschool
program for my son, which is now to my

astonishment, being taken on in schools.

But it was specifically trying to
address this let's say that girl that

you just described, she's getting
home, she's melting down, so she,

the, the, the relationship with
the parents is now compromised, so

that means the home environment is
compromised and so on and so on.

She goes through the assessment, she
gets the diagnosis, does do things

improve for her because then when
she gets home, her parents know.

She needs space.

She needs time to recharge and recover,
and therefore the demands that we can

make need to be rethought because she's
exhausted by what she's had to the

energy she's had to expend dah, dah, dah.

So therefore things go better at home.

So therefore, you know, I I Is that where
or, and she can then go to teachers and

say, or parents go to teachers and say,
look, this is what's going on with her.

Can we make certain
sensory accommodations?

Can we this, can we that?

And then, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

How does it better

Rupert Isaacson: get better for her?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Well, it would be better.

More education is needed.

There is a huge amount of
misinformation about autism in females.

The program that I have just gone
through, the three year program.

Did not mention autism in females
once it was mentioned in children,

and the only time it was mentioned in
any of the textbooks or discussions

that I had in an adult was in a
male with intellectual disability.

So a huge gap.

I think the type of programs that
you are offering would go a long

way for that hypothetical girl.

She would not take the radiance.

The radiance is designed for adult women.

Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Now there could be a researcher out there
who wants to take the work we've done on

the radiance and create one for girls.

We toyed with the idea.

We were gonna call it the cognac.

We might do it.

I don't know.

All of our research has been
self-funded or funded by participants.

We do not get any government grants.

We have not had institutional grants.

No one is much interested in funding
research into autistic women,

particularly a, a, a program that is
designed to support and enhance them.

Cure, that's another thing.

And now we have RFK who's going
down that rabbit hole as well.

So yeah, I think there is a huge
opportunity here for the work that you

are doing, for the work that we are
doing for other autistic researchers

to run with this and really start
to make some inroads into an area

that has been woefully ignored.

Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and it's so interesting, isn't it?

I'm, I'm thinking to someone I
know who has this ex exact story.

She's now 30 and she is in fact
now a researcher in the field.

She had the good fortune to have a pony.

Mm-hmm.

And the pony took up the slack.

But not everybody, of
course, is in that position.

And I guess it's just listening to
you speak and, and thinking about.

How so many, I think adolescent girls
have this experience of being the one

who is bringing emotional upheaval into
a family environment, but may or may

not have much choice in that matter.

And therefore, if this were better
understood, particularly when it

hits that middle school pain point.

Yes.

You know, how much better could things be?

And I suspect they could be much better.

So I'm also, it's natural for
me to imagine in my journalistic

mind, okay, the radiance goes
out there and it gets a momentum.

And then it would seem to me
almost inevitable that a cohort of

probably female researchers, but
possibly also male, might go listen.

Maybe we need this actually much
earlier so that we're not picking

up people who are so traumatized
by, you know, lives gone wrong that

they have to kind of rethink and
rebuild and reframe in middle age.

Do we need to, does it need,
does that need to happen?

No, it doesn't.

If we can think more intelligently
about this and this is, this

is the, now the other problem.

Remember we started with tribe.

One of things that's also very difficult,
and this is a point I'm making often

when I'm working with young autistic
adults, is it, while it is true that

neurotypicals must and should meet you
more than halfway, you have to meet

them halfway too, because Absolutely.

That's just the world we're in, you know?

And.

Whether that's a should or whether that's
a shouldn't, it's and is and mm-hmm.

That's a set of survival skills.

So it's like, you know, for example,
I have to speak other languages.

I live in Germany, I have to speak German,
I lived in France, I had to speak French.

I'll be going to live in Spain soon.

I have to learn Spanish.

I just will have to, whether I wanted
to or not is completely irrelevant.

If I want to be able to get around in
America, I have to get a driving license.

Do I wanna drive?

Do I not wanna drive irrelevant?

Gotta have one or, it's very difficult.

But it doesn't mean that I stop being me.

I'm just me with a set of skills.

So, but what's so hard for parents?

I think, and as you say, in families
where there is autism, one of

the parents can also be autistic,
which can add, you know, variables.

They often have no support.

Right.

Without tribe, it's almost, you
know, and I, it's almost impossible.

And I, I had this good fortune to
spend all this time with indigenous

people where there is a lot of support.

No one is left unsupported.

Everyone in the community regards anyone
else's struggle as something that everyone

else has a partial responsibility for.

Because if one person fails,
the whole thing can fold and

everyone gets eaten by hyenas.

That's no good.

So we step in and people might
grumble about it, but people

step in and help automatically.

We know that that's just not
how things are set up, you know?

So I'm just thinking back to your
story, Rebecca, you know, I mean,

your mom, whatever was going on with
her was also isolated and alone.

Probably didn't have the skills to
cope, you know, might have had some

sort of diagnosis going on herself
of something, or rather, who knows?

Had plenty of, so couldn't cope folded.

Off made the wrong decision, but there
was no granny, there were no aunts.

There was no greater sisterhood or
council of elders or to Yeah, and

Dr. Marc Evanko:

well in, I'm wondering if that's
the greater Yeah, go ahead.

The greater society here in modern society
in the United States at least, has largely

evolved into a situation like that.

There are pockets within,
within this culture where that

is still strongly supported.

That tribe mentality
is still but very few.

Yeah, very few.

And so everyone almost has that isolation
because there is not that support.

There are the, there are some.

Church communities that maybe do
exactly what you were talking about

where everybody bands together and, and
maybe there's some grumbling, there are

the elders, there are these somebody
who is able to cause that group of

people to be more cohesive and, and
more supportive of any one of them.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

It's cultural too.

You talked about the Kal Kalari,
the Australian aboriginal culture.

Yeah.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Same thing

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

is very, very much about communal
responsibility for every member.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And you know, in, in the 25 years or so,
I was living in the USA and particularly

once we got into this work, I noticed that
often when we're in Texas, so a a certain

proportion of our, you're in New Mexico
of our clientele was always Hispanic.

And they often had better outcomes.

Because there was just more support,
there was more familial support.

Yep.

Among the white middle class, very little.

And where that might have not been true 50
years ago, there'd been more family farms

that had been more family businesses.

It just was not the case anymore.

And I, I, when we first started running
what we call play dates, we never called

it therapy 'cause we're not therapists.

And by the way, I never even
met a kid that wanted therapy.

You know, oh, I'd like some therapy
today, my, you know, no, no.

They, they might wanna play or go
ride their pony or doesn't mean that

it can't be therapeutic, but yeah.

So we've always called it play dates, you
know, and, but I, what, what I noticed

was, of course, I needed the siblings
there because I didn't know your kid.

Right.

Your kid doesn't trust
me, doesn't know me.

Coming in with an overactive
amygdala full of fear.

So if I have the brother and the sister
there, they'll give me all sorts of intel.

Like, don't do this,
make sure you do that.

She hates this kind of sound or smell.

She loves that, you know, not that dog
but that dog, you know, blah, blah, blah.

When it makes the funny noise,
it means this, this is amazing.

I need all this into, you know, so
it might take me three, four years of

building relationship before I could,
you know, learn that about somebody.

So I needed to make things
attractive for the siblings.

So, of course, let's say there
was a sister generally well riding

lessons, you know, happening for free.

You know, that was generally pretty good.

Maybe the boys didn't care from
horses, but he loved soccer

or something, or martial arts.

And I had friends who were
semi-pro soccer coaches.

I'd ring that guy up and say, I need
you on Tuesday at this play date.

And so then the brother would
find that he was getting all this

amazing soccer coaching because.

Siblings autism, not in spite of.

And it changed the
dynamic within the family.

And then the parents were coming
and suddenly saying, oh my gosh, all

of our kids' needs are being met.

We can actually have time to reach out
to each other and swap information.

Because the best information you
always get is from other parents.

What worked, what didn't work?

And we realized we'd stumbled into
Tribe and I was doing it partly 'cause

I was so isolated from my tribe.

And so I wanted kind of
a social life for my kid.

I kind of wanted a bit
of a social life for me.

And I was also curious to see if what we
were doing would work with other kids.

So I I, I wonder if that's also what you
found that you are doing at Wilder Wood.

Do you feel that you've actually
also created Tribe there and that

through these protocols that you're
doing, you're helping to create wider

tribes, you know, and that wider
supports out now away from Wilder Wood.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yeah, absolutely.

And it was almost by default particularly
with our research that we've created,

this community of autistic women who are
connected now through the Radiance and the

letters and emails that we get outlining
the difference that this has made.

We got one last week from someone that
we diagnosed two years ago, and you

know, she was saying since getting the
diagnosis, she's found others like her and

she's been able to establish an interest.

And she's halfway through a baccalaureate
program in psychology and she wants

to go out now and be trained as a
therapist to help other autistic women.

So she's found that connection and
the thread started with finding

this community or this tribe.

So

Rupert Isaacson: do, do you have plans
to set up some sort of, I mean, training

where people can learn to do what you do
and then set up effectively Wilder Woods?

All over the place.

Not dissimilar to what
we did with horse boy.

There are horse boy places around.

That's something that could happen.

'cause I think there's a need
for what you're talking about

quite a, quite strongly.

We

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

certainly, well, I
appreciate you saying that.

I think I look at the things
that people like you do Rupert,

and I'm just in awe of you.

I think what you do is amazing.

I think you're an in incredible
inspiration and what you've done

for your son and with your son
and by extension, the autistic and

the A DHD community is incredible.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I don't know that I have the
energy or the drive to do that.

I think that getting the
radiance out there is important.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

I think

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

training clinicians in how
to use it is important.

But I think that offering what I do
here and having the opportunity to

talk with other like-minded people.

Is also very important, but
multiple Wilder Woods, I'm not sure.

I don't think so.

Well, I wonder if that's something
that will happen indirectly.

Rupert Isaacson: It doesn't.

I mean, it doesn't have to happen through
like a certification program or something.

But I, I just wonder if that, because
surely, you know, when you're going

out there and talking to other
women with your condition, you are

probably at some point saying to
them, Hey, listen, you need support.

And here are some tips
for how to find it, right?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yeah, absolutely.

And I really like the idea of other
autistic people going out and creating

other elements or other parts or other
components that they've taken from

it, rather than, you know, me and Mark
being sort of the, the ones doing it.

I like the idea of it spreading
through the community.

Right.

And the community taking
responsibility for it.

You know, rather than the more
individualistic, oh, this is Mark's

and my program and, you know, we're
going to, you know, teach others.

No.

Take what, what you've learned from us.

Reject what you don't like and go out and
do something in your part of the community

so we can create and spread this.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Yeah.

This is an interesting thing that
we've also experienced is people,

for instance, we, we put on a a
community event in Albuquerque.

It was called Fest last year.

And I saw some stuff
on it on your website.

Yeah, it looked great.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

It was, it was great.

And there were some of the, some of
the people who made comments on a

Facebook or something like that, that
were saying, well, you could have

done this and you could have done
that, and why didn't you do this?

Our response to each other in our kitchen
or in the was, why don't you do it?

We did this.

You go ahead and do that.

That's your idea.

Go for it.

Because what ends up happening in a lot
of these instances is people like you,

Rupert, people like Rebecca are amazing
people and are looked at for that drive.

It is, to some degree very, very inspiring
to others who somehow don't have the

same intellectual, mental capacities.

Because there is a spectrum of that
within humanity and those who are

part of the tribe and yet do not
have certain attributes that allow

them to do those things with facility

end up dropping the ball.

It's, it's sort of like if there
was in, in religions there is the

guy who is the Buddha who is the
enlightened one, or the Christ who is

the enlightened one, and then there's
the people who were immediately

around that person and they sort of
get it, but not like that person did.

And after about two or three iterations
down the road, it becomes like the

whisper game where we're whispering
a sentence to someone and that

sentence goes around the circle.

It's not the same sentence by
the time it gets back, because

you know what you're doing.

Rebecca knows what she's doing,
and you do it very, very well.

And then it slightly gets diluted
or changed a little bit and then

it gets changed a little bit more.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I agree.

That's an organic process, right?

And I, I think, yeah.

You know, this used to
keep us up at night.

Years ago.

And then we realized well hold on.

In that case, if this is, if this
is keeping us up at night, then

that means we need to simplify
what, what, what does what, what's

the simplification of what we do?

Because there's all these
different nuances, right?

And we realized that
there's just this one thing.

If you're doing it, you'll probably be
successful and you could take any of the

tools that we offer and run with them.

And that's why like our programs,
they're just, they're just toolkits.

They're just like saying,
here's a bunch of tools.

You're probably already doing
something pretty awesome.

'cause a lot of people that we
train are, you know, already

doing good things, right?

Don't change what you're doing.

Here are just some tools
that you might find useful.

You know, the, the one, so there's
one thing that allows those tools

to be used, and that's the ethic.

It starts with the autistic person.

It starts with Temple Grandin.

And the advice I got, which we never
deviated from, which is follow the child.

Yeah.

That's great.

And so as long as you're doing that.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because, because then it, because
then it's not about horses.

If the kid's not into horses, but
he's into balloons and bicycles and

Minecraft, I'm all about balloons
and bicycles and Minecraft, you know?

Yeah.

There you go.

Then the horse is my therapy so that
I can put up balloons and bicycles

and Minecraft, which I don't find
interesting, but I can, I can mask and,

you know, pretend to find it interesting
to, 'cause I'm interested in that kid.

But then the horse is actually
helping me more than the horse is

helping, but it's Follow the child.

Follow the child, follow the
child, and it, it, it sounds like

basically that's what a lot of the
radiance is coming down to, which is

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Absolutely follow, yes,
follow the artistic autistic

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

woman.

Right.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And then if there is
a bit of a process of, as you said,

Chinese whispers down down the line,
if, if, if, if you build that in to re

the radiance and it seems that you are.

Then it just becomes a great
toolkit that any anyone can use.

And yeah, sure, some people might use
it better than others, but, but at

least it's there and at least it's
an improvement on the status quo.

You know, and, and that, and you know,
you, you've gotta follow yourself as well

Rebecca, so, you know, you always thinking
back to yourself as that 15-year-old

girl, would this, could this have improved
things if it had been around back then?

The answer is for sure.

Oh God.

Oh, oh God, yes.

Oh God, yes.

You know?

Yeah.

And it's been good for the world that you
went through that story because you've

done something really good with it.

But you know, as well as I do
that not every girl has the, has

the same outcome that you had.

And we, we don't want every
girl to have to go through that.

No.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Right?

Rupert Isaacson: No.

So I massively appreciate
what you're doing.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Likewise, we're pretty much in awe of
you and what you continue to accomplish

and have accomplished, and we're just
quite, well, I can't speak for Mark,

but I was quite amazed that why does
Rupert Isaacson want to talk to me?

We all in

Rupert Isaacson: this field.

And he, you know, 'cause there was a
time, you know this, Rebecca, I mean, 10

years ago we were all getting laughed at
and you were just playing with ponies.

And my answer to that was,
and what's wrong with that?

But then I realized, yeah, then maybe I
better go talk to some neuroscientists and

find out actually why that's a good thing.

So that when people said that to
me, I could say, okay, so here's

what's going on in the brain when
you do this and here's what's going

on in the body and you do this.

And then they go, oh, oh, oh.

And then I could say, so where did
you get your degree in neuroscience?

So you, you clearly, you know, and then
that changed the thing completely when

they got on board, but we had to be
laughed at for years before we got there.

So, no, why do I want to talk to you?

Because you're improving the
field guys, and you are, you

are, you're getting the job done.

And I respect that.

And, and I want to, and I want to
big you up and I want people to know

about you because we're all gonna be
dead someday, and this has to go on.

We can't, we can't be going back to
where things were 20, 25 years ago.

No.

Mm-hmm.

So the fact that you guys are advancing
the field in this thoughtful way and

devoting your lives and your resources
to this is incredibly important.

Of course, I want to talk to you.

Of course.

I Well, thank you.

To know about it's, yeah.

Yeah.

It goes without saying.

By the way, there's an unsung
hero in all our programs.

And that is Ileana Lawrence who is
my wife, and who is the person who's

responsible for the systematization
of these things so that they can be

really taught and really replicated.

And she's super modest and she won't
ever come on a podcast and she won't,

you know, but were it not for her?

No, this wouldn't be happening.

So it's not all me by any
stretch of the imagination.

I happened to, if I had one
good idea, I had one good idea.

And that was, I went to
talk to Temple Grandin.

And then my second good idea was I said,
yeah, I'm gonna follow that advice.

But I can't say that was
through any natural talent.

That was just, that was just common sense.

It's like there's someone who, who has
the knowledge go to that person, try it.

Does it work?

Oh, it works.

Keep doing it.

And I think, yeah, we are,
we're all in this boat.

We had a breakthrough last year with
our programs in Ireland where there's an

amazing man who you need to be aware of
called David Doyle, who's an autism dad,

who started amazing work all over Ireland
and based around the situation he found

himself in with his daughter 30 years ago.

And he proved at the place that he got
going called Li Skint in County Limerick.

Look it up, Liz Kennet.

I'll send you a, a link.

That using movement method with
autistic adults who were violent and

who often needed up to four minders,
you know, by the time a someone's six

foot four and 250 pounds, and is so
frustrated and so boiling over with.

30 years sensory stuff.

And, you know, you know, the, the
score that anyway, that with, with

this over five years, they could bring
that number of minders down to one.

And that of course saved the government
over a million euros per person.

Wow.

And after five years of collecting the
data, finally the Minister of Health

and Disability in Ireland, it's amazing
they have a minister of disability.

Yeah, really it's incredible, eh
when, you know what, the data's good

and they got behind it, this was
fif 20, almost 20, between 15 and 20

years into the work we were doing.

And then that begins to have a knock on
effect within the eu, eu, which then has

a knock on effect back to the uk, which
then has a knock on effect back to the us.

'cause as you know, you're never
an authority in your own backyard.

You know, your stuff will
be adopted in Germany.

You're right across the usa.

It's just how it goes.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And that's the other reason why we
all need to be talking and that's why

we need podcasts like this, because
we need to be aware of each other.

Because I'm going to be talking.

So we have what's so for listeners, you're
gonna be listening to this whenever,

but this happens to be July of 2025.

So in August of 2025, we'll be having
what we call our Horse Boy Tribe Day.

We should really call it tribe Days
'cause it's over a long weekend and

we get together internationally.

And this year it's in one of our places
in Ireland, a place called Stewart's Care.

Kil Coon, just outside of Dublin.

Well, I'm gonna be talking about
your, and I'm gonna be saying go

check that out, because that's what
we all rely on each other to do.

We're like, how?

I wouldn't know this.

I didn't found out about you
because of our mutual friend.

Lisa Deon.

Lisa.

Lisa.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, if
you haven't heard my podcast with

Elisa Deon, who does the Echos Film
Festival, so over on my live free, ride

free podcast, go and check her out.

She's an amazing human being with
a heart about as big as Oh yeah.

Chicago, where she comes from,
and she turned me onto your back

in April, said, Rupert, you've
gotta check these people out.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And

Rupert Isaacson: if Lisa tells me, I
take her word for it, you know, so I

looked you all up and I went, oh yeah,
no, they're, they're the real deal.

They're doing it.

But without her turning me onto
you, I wouldn't have known,

you know, we're been too much,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

too much

Rupert Isaacson: information out there.

We're

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

back, back to tribe again
and tribal communication.

That's

Rupert Isaacson: right.

So, back to putting stuff out in the
world, you've also written a book.

Tell us about the book.

Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Oh, it's, so, it was, I wrote it at the
urging of Mark because my, my attitude

was, well, who wants to know about me?

Nobody's interested in me.

Rupert Isaacson: That was still,
that's still your attitude.

That's just my attitude.

Well, the thing is where you're
right about that honestly, is

they're not interested in you.

They're interested in your story.

When people read the horse, boy,
they're not interested in me.

They're interested in the story.

So you are right in a way, but
you do have a very good story.

So tell us the story.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Well, it's just basically what I,
what I went over earlier today.

It's just the story of what happened to
me and that I was basically abandoned.

Gave up on, I had a grade nine
education or autistic, no family,

no support, no money, no nothing.

And I kind of, worked my way through
it and, you know, ended up going

back to school and getting now four
degrees and, and doing what I do.

And it was the, basically that
was the story and interwoven

through that, how horses.

And my love of horses and my
ability to connect with horses

probably saved me because it
was the one constant in my life.

If I didn't have a horse,
I was reading about them.

I was thinking about them.

I was, I had them in my heart.

They have been a constant throughout
my life, and I'm so incredibly

grateful to this guy beside me for
opening up the opportunity where

I can now and have for the past
12 years, lived again with horses.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

This, well, one other thing that I
wanna put out four in the context of,

of the, the book, that was an unspoken
thing, but something that Rebecca

and I have both talked about is this
concept of learned helplessness.

An ironic concept that people.

Whether autistic or not, who have certain
things that are accommodated for them,

actually don't learn as well how to do
those things because it's easier for them.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Rather than going through what Rebecca had
to go through, because that was her life.

She did not learn helplessness.

She had to find ways.

Her executive function is very poor,
but she had to compensate by having

three different memory devices for
moleskin, her diary and a second set

of on the computer of calendaring.

That, that she.

Invented for herself out of
necessity if she hadn't learned and

taught herself to do that because
there was no one else around.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Hmm.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

She would not be here with me today.

And I reinforce this fairly often,
this concept of learned helplessness

is intermingling with societies that
first world societies that so easy to

get just about anything you desire.

Rupert Isaacson: Things Yes.

I mean that you desire, I mean
it's, it's rendering neurotypicals,

helpless that is, that is accurate.

The, the, that is accurate.

The, the assumption that everything.

Is gonna be at your
fingertips all the time.

Means that yeah.

Don't

Dr. Marc Evanko:

work.

And you going, yeah, you going to the
Kalahari or me going out backpacking

in the, in the mountains of New Mexico
or Colorado and getting lost sometimes

on purpose so that I'm challenged.

And you were challenged because
the hyenas are out there.

Oh yeah, they are.

And, and that's the
metaphor for all of it.

In the first world, the hyenas are the
bankers and the, and the businessmen.

And, and they are the ones
who are there waiting.

Rupert Isaacson: Get this to take in
the hunter gatherer context, which is

the authentic human context, right?

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: The predator is never.

I repeat Never your fellow human.

Hmm.

They don't kill each other.

They don't pray upon
each other in those ways.

If that comes in after they're displaced,
then society breaks down and then

they do those things to each other.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Hmm.

But

Rupert Isaacson: when things are going
authentically, it's actually, it's

so, human culture is actually in its
authentic sense, a culture of conflict.

Resolution not, yes.

Of conflict creation.

Now we live in a society where the
only predator is our fellow human.

And that bens us nuts.

Because it is nuts.

And that means that even if you're
a neurotypical, it's no holy grail.

You're, you, you're, you're
going mad with absolutely that

kind of psychological pain.

'cause you're living in the
world that's as it should not be.

And a part of your subconscious
is like, this is wrong.

And I think everybody has that
voice screaming all the time,

but you might not even know why,
because you're so far removed.

It's not your fault.

This learned helplessness thing
is so interesting because one

does need to be taught skills.

And it's so interesting in those
hunter gatherer context, kids

are given absolutely, absolutely
unconditional, unconditional love.

They're always carried on the body.

You're not gonna put 'em down
where there's snakes and scorpions.

They're always between two adults
at night because if you put them on

the other side of a high highness
will come in and they will take

your kid and you will not wake up.

They know how to do that.

So you wouldn't dream of putting
them even half a meter away from you.

They'll take your boots if you take
your boots off, you know, and it's

also below freezing at night, so you're
gonna have the child here and then it

will graduate to a pack of siblings
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But what's so weird with that level of
support is that when they reach about 16.

They can take a spear, go into the
bush, dodge all the dangerous stuff,

come back with a meal for everybody.

Two years after that they can go down to
Johannesburg in the city and get a job in

the mines, learn to speak eight languages,
suddenly learn to be a mechanic.

'cause they've just kind of looked
at their powers of observation are

so good from tracking, they can just
kind of, oh yeah, yeah, I can do that.

And then they learn to fix
trucks and so on, and it happens.

Boom, boom, boom, boom.

So it seems that this total
sequence in the early stages

leads to total independence later.

We seem to have it the other way round and
that, you know, let the kid cry it out.

You know, make them be tough early.

And of course it just leaves them
with great psychological holes.

I mean, I'm, any of us that we
then have to fill in with things

like alcohol and whatever.

So it's different type
of learned helplessness.

I agree.

And that seems to come
down to tribe again.

And would you not agree that because
you wouldn't want everyone to have to

go through what Rebecca went through
because there'd be a, a wastage

and a casualty and attrition rate
there that no, we don't want that.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

I would not recommend it, no.

Rupert Isaacson: But what if the
horses can help us with that?

'cause horses, as you know, well,
they're gonna give you that feedback.

Yes.

And you're gonna make mistakes.

And sometimes you get clunked and
sometimes you, you're gonna have to modify

your behavior around them 'cause they
just are and they're gonna teach you.

So with programs like yours, I think,
you know, you can take someone who

might've been in Rebecca's or might be
in Rebecca's situation and say, we are

not gonna give you do everything for you.

And it's not learned helplessness, but it
is a safe container where you can Right.

Do that.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Educate.

Yes.

And that's, yeah.

The the youth programs that we've had are
basically doing that here is, there's the

horse, here's the rope he has a halter on.

We're gonna let you figure
out how to catch him.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

But, but it's not, it's not, it's not
Desmond because they'll never catch him.

It's digger who is, is happy to be
caught, but he'll walk a little bit away.

And then someone would graduate.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

To Desmond.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

To Desmond.

Yeah.

So that, so that it is
an attainable task, but.

You hand a rope to someone and say,
for that has never been around a horse

before and maybe has here, been here one
time, adult or child, it doesn't matter.

Here's your rope.

There's the horse.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

What are you gonna dig?

And you're gonna learn to
help yourself starting here.

And there'll be no,
there'll be no punishments.

If you get it wrong, there'll
be no negative outcome for you.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Something different.

And if it doesn't work today,
we'll figure it out tomorrow.

Dr. Marc Evanko:

Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: But figure it out.

We will.

Yeah.

No, I, I, I so respect that.

You know, we talked about the book,
we didn't hear the title of the book.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Oh, it's Joy.

Rupert Isaacson: We like Joy.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Joy.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Because, because this is the other thing,
you know, I love that you have that word

because when, when we're training people.

We're always saying, well,
the problem's not autism.

Right?

Because there's lots of
successful autistic people and

the problem's, not schizophrenia.

'cause there's actually quite a lot
of successful schizophrenic people.

And there's, the problem is the
suffering that goes with finding

yourself in the wrong place with
these overwhelmed by all this stress.

Mm-hmm.

But, so the problem's actually
suffering, not the condition.

'cause these conditions
have always been around.

So what is the opposite of suffering?

If we want to, the opposite
of suffering is joy.

Joy, yes.

So that's what we, you know, if, if,
and again, you know, follow the child

work, I, I'd love that you call it
joy, because that's what we have to do.

And if, if, if one gets these life
skills, what's the point of them?

The point of them without

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

joy.

Right?

Yeah.

And,

Rupert Isaacson: and to experience joy.

To be able to access joy.

Right.

What do ponies bring into our lives?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely joy.

Rupert Isaacson: We are
great purveyors of joy.

That's what we do.

That's, you know, we're
lucky that we can do that.

So listen guys we've
hit the two hour mark.

I'd love to have you guys on again.

Sure.

It's been, I feel I've
only scratched the surface.

How do people find out about you?

Give us the web stuff.

How do they find out about Radiance?

How do they find about EQU therapy?

And m where do they get your book?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Website is the best place.

Wilder Wood equine

Rupert Isaacson: therapy.org.

Wilder Wood.

Equine therapy.

Word?

Equine?

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Org.

Org.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

ORG.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And the books on

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Amazon.

On Amazon, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Co,

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

co.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you Co guys.

Thank you.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Thank you so much.

Thank you for the invitation.

We're very

Rupert Isaacson: grateful.

You, very

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

wonderful.

And we feel very privileged to be having
had the chance to talk with you today.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise, likewise.

Thank you for making the
time, and we will do it again.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

All

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Take care.

Take care guys.

Thanks a lot.

Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

Bye-bye.

Okay.

Bye-bye.

Byebye.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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