Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back.

I'm here with the amazing
Chrissy McDonald and Mark Rashid.

Those of you who listened to our
previous podcast know that we ended

with talking about really how to
achieve softness and softness being

something that isn't just physical.

Of course that comes from within.

Mark was talking at some length
about his relationship with

Aikido, for example, and music this
way, not just with horsemanship.

Chrissy echoing many of these intimate

at the same time.

I became anxious and I thought, well,
if I'm becoming anxious, probably

other people are anxious too.

And the anxiety was, what
if I'm not soft enough?

And now we've gotta be soft?

Oh, now we've gotta be soft.

What if I'm not soft?

Ah, you know, and it brought to mind,
I think we live in a particularly

anxious society where in some ways
things have never been better, and

in some ways there's never been so
much to cause us to feel anxious and.

We've never taken, I think this idea
of fairness and ethics to heart,

particularly in the horse community,
in the way that we have now, it's, it's

definitely, I think, unprecedented really.

And at the same time, and that's
good and at the same time, it can

cause one to feel anxious, of course,
that one's not living up to this.

And, you know, should
we do anything at all?

Should we even go near a horse?

Should we even put our fingertips
on a horse, let alone our butts?

You know?

And should we put anything in
their mouths, let alone, you know,

anything on their noses or anything.

Or anything or anything.

And that spiral of anxiety,
of course is not soft, but

we're in pursuit of softness.

So there's a paradox there.

And I'd like to explore that paradox.

'cause I think we're all, to
some degree battling with this,

or at least dancing with this.

And when we have people like Chrissy
and Mark who have good, incredible

things to say on these things, I
think it's worth bringing this up.

'cause I do think it's a, it, it's a
concern not just for horsemen, but for

people who are running programs at equine
assisted programs, that sort of thing.

We, we want to, we want not
just our horses, but the people

we're serving to have agency.

And at the same time, this can
cause anxiety where we end up

trying to control that anxiety.

And so what do we do about that?

What do we do about that guys?

Mark Rashid: Well, I'll jump in.

Basically, the idea for, for
us, when we talk to folks is

oftentimes, especially when we're working
with horses and with people, is that the

idea is to be as soft as you can be, which
may not be as soft as you want to be.

And you know, as, for instance, on
a scale from zero to 10, with zero

being no pressure, you know, as
soft as I wanna be is maybe a 0.5.

But given the circumstances of the day
and the situation that I'm in, I might

have to go to a seven, but that's as
soft as I can be on that day, in that

situation, the key to that is that we
don't bring emotion into the situation.

We're just dealing with
what's in front of us.

Without making up stories around what
we're, what we're dealing with or what's

going on, just deal with the situation.

And then with, if you can, I
mean, working on internal softness

is, is really important I think,
and we can talk about that too.

But, but a big part of it for me is being
able to control self, having self-control.

And I think that's where, where we get
into trouble sometimes is that we we're

trying to be soft, but maybe things are
escalating and, and now I am, I'm at a

seven and I'm outta control emotionally.

I'm angry or I'm scared, or, or whatever.

And, and it's difficult for situations
like that to come back into control.

So for me, it's not so much about being,
you know, we talk about being soft.

The goal might be to be at a 0.5

in everything that I do.

And I also have to understand that
there may be times where I may have

to, because of the situation, I
may have to bring that level up.

And so that's, you know, that's kind of
the way that I would, I would, that's a,

I mean, for, to start the conversation.

That's, that's what I would,
that's what I would offer.

Rupert Isaacson: That's it is
quite intriguing to have a scale

that one could put a number to.

Is that an Aikido thing or is
that something that you've just

come up with instinctively?

I.

Mark Rashid: I've pretty much
come up with that just in our

teaching with horses and riders.

Mm.

Just so that we have some language and an
idea to, you know, if we're using a scale

of pressure, for instance, on the reins
with a rider, I can maybe get on one end

of the reins and the hor and the rider be
on the other while they're on the horse.

And I could say, well, could you show
me what a, what a one feels like to you?

And, and then on, you know,
feeling what they do in the range.

I can say, well, that actually
feels like about a three to me.

Let me show you what a, what a one feels
like to me so that we can, we have a

jumping off point and so we, we can be
speaking the same language instead of,

instead of some arbitrary, you know, speak
that, you know, we, I may understand as

one thing and the rider might understand
as something completely different.

So it's just a, just a way for us
to kind of get on the same page

and have a jumping off point.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
that's helpful, Chrissy.

Softness and the anxieties around it.

Yes,

Crissi McDonald: yes.

So the first thing I thought about was
because we're talking about softness

as an internal state, and we're talking
about the paradox of also being anxious

and having that be an in internal state.

I completely agree with you that I
think these times and our cultures

have a lot of anxiety right now, so
it's really easy just to be anxious and

it takes practice to not live there.

One of the things I like to talk about
is anytime we have something going on

inside of us, it's like a speed bump.

So I get up in the morning and I
look at my email and there's someone

who's mad that's a bump, right?

And then I come out and
I check on the dogs.

Maybe one of my dogs isn't doing good.

That's a bump.

And then I looked at my texts and then I
look at social media and then, you know,

you can see how this starts to snowball.

Yeah.

And

Crissi McDonald: so by the time I get to
my horse, I've maybe driven in traffic.

I have dealt with other drivers.

Maybe I listen to the news,
which isn't that great right now.

Maybe I've seen an animal on the side
of the road that got hit by a car.

I mean, it, it's just
that this is life, right?

It's messy.

And so by the time we get to our horse.

We're not traveling along
a smooth road anymore.

We are constantly going over
these speed bumps internally.

So I think the practices is when you,
when tho when that information, when life

hands you these things, is to be able to
be aware of it, recognize it, and then

try to get yourself back into homeostasis.

So meaning you're not too, you're
not in a panic attack, but you're

also not almost falling asleep.

Right?

Your nervous system, from what I
understand, I'm not a therapist, but what

we're learning from a friend of ours is
your nervous system is meant to do this.

Right?

We don't, I was under the misconception
that I always had to be parasympathetic.

I always had to be calm.

And anytime I felt a blip of
anxiety that was bad and I had

to do something to take it away.

And that's really not a complete picture.

So I'm learning more about the nervous
system states, but before I started

learning about this, every, I would
think about the inside of me as as

how many speed bumps have I gone
over before I got to my horse, and

how can I smooth that road back out?

Because every time we have a
speed bump, that's a, the horse

is trying to communicate right?

And it can't get over that.

So it hits this, this
is my feeling, this is.

Is a feeling I have.

We're working with our horses.

We're maybe in a certain state, but
we're so tight internally, maybe

we're trying to be soft and we
just can't be soft and oh my God.

Now I'm not soft in my, I'm
torturing my horse, right?

Rupert Isaacson: I'm torturing myself
with this or torturing die for softness.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

But if we could take a breath
and just let all of that go.

Just, just, we don't have to let it go
in the sense of, I'm never gonna think

about it again, but can I just set that
aside for 20 minutes and be with my horse?

You know, I'm not ignoring
it, I'm not bearing it.

But can we kind of let that pass
through us instead of sticking inside?

Can I let that information pass
through me instead of getting stuck?

Rupert Isaacson: Now, let's say you

have a mechanism, and let's
say it's breathing for that.

And you arrive at the place where you
keep your horse because not everyone is

lucky enough to keep their horses at home.

And then you come in and perhaps
you see a face that causes you some

anxiety or someone enters the arena
that causes you some anxiety, perhaps.

Your horse is living in a box.

And has been stood there for a long
time and is full of energy to be

expressed and can't be soft because
just can't be soft at that moment.

So one's own desire for softness,
of course, is unable to be met

by the horse in that moment.

And now I'm anxious about that and I'm
anxious about these other people and

I'm anxious about, and I'm anxious about

breathing will certainly help
me, but I suspect it probably

won't get me fully there.

When we are dealing with all these
imperfect situations, we are assuming

that not everyone is living on their
own private ranch in the Rockies

backing onto a national forest.

What are some really practical things?

Breathing for sure is one, but what
are some really practical things we can

do to try and access that softness and
particularly when the horse is not meeting

us with softness and can't in that moment?

Crissi McDonald: Well, I'll throw in
my 2 cents, then we'll go to Mark.

I, I find a really helpful thing to do,
especially if a horse is coming out of

a stall, is instead of having an agenda,
I am gonna do these five things today.

As we bring the horse out of the
stall and see what the horse needs

that may be to go for a walk.

Mm-hmm.

It may need if there's turnout.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: It, part of
softness is also awareness.

So we look at our horse and we say, okay,
this, you know, whatever the situation

is, this is where my horse is right now.

Mm-hmm.

How about we, I'm a big fan of doing what
you can do, not doing what you can't.

Mm-hmm.

That's good.

And I got

Crissi McDonald: that from a certain guy.

So what can we do on a day when a horse
is much bigger than we would, you know,

we look at 'em and we think, I'm not
ready to ride that, but what can we do?

We can go for a walk, we can lunge, we can
find a round pen and explore some things.

We can turn out and let our horse great.

I mean, there's, so we get so
focused on what we can't do.

I think, I think that's a survival
bias or something Steve would know,

but we get so focused on what we can't
do that we lose sight of what we can.

Mm-hmm.

And there's always something we can do.

Or I mean, even, even if we just spend an
hour walking our horse around the property

and the horse ends up feeling softer,
less worried, that's, that's a good day.

That's quality over quantity.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: Right.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree.

Crissi McDonald: That's,
that's my thought,

Rupert Isaacson: mark.

Mark Rashid: Well that's, I, I think
the, the question really needs to be

how do I get into a state where that
those things don't bother me so much?

And you know, for me, I, I, I try to
live my life in a certain way to where,

to where I don't get anxious very often.

That doesn't say that I don't, but
I, it doesn't happen very often and

most of the time it's just one of my
practices is to look at things for

what they are and not worry so much
about building stories around things.

And, and, you know, that's, for me,
that's been a really important step

in not just horsemanship, but life in
general, so that not everything has

the same level of importance, you know?

So, forgetting the milk
at the grocery store.

For a lot of folks has the same importance
as getting into a fender bender in

the parking lot of the grocery store.

You know, or, you know,
it's, it's unbalanced.

It's an, for me it's an
unbalanced way of being.

Hmm.

And going through the day.

So, you know, being able to see things
for what they are instead of, you

know, taking everything so seriously.

There are some things that need
to be taken seriously, but you can

still do that in, in a calm state
of mind from, from an internal.

So for me, the, the, it starts
with how are we living our life?

Because, you know, you made a really
good point in that we basically

live in a low level state of panic.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Mark Rashid: You know, I'd say that's true

Rupert Isaacson: for most people and

Mark Rashid: be, and that's, we
allow that, that's a choice we make.

So, yeah.

I mean, the world is what the world
is and our, you know, it's like,

like Chrissy mentioned, you know, the
news, watching the news, well, there's

nothing I can do about any of that.

You know, I, I can't, there, I
have no influence on any of that.

Yeah.

At all.

And so, you know, I can't
let it bother me too much.

I.

You know, I have, I have influence
in the, in the three foot

space around me more or less.

And so I feel like that's
a good place to start.

Rupert Isaacson: That's
stoic philosophy basically.

Mark Rashid: Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Which interestingly
they say was started by a man called

Han who happened to be a horseman.

Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And a student of
Socrates and the best mate of Plato.

And also a mercenary.

Just,

Mark Rashid: you know, it's funny,
it's funny because, you know, in

the dojo we spend a lot of time, in
fact I'm, I'm doing a an upper belt

class that, that meets once a month.

And in that class, what we are working
on is being able to stay in a calm state

of mind, regardless of the situation,
regardless of the type of attack that's

coming, regardless of the weapon that
the person is holding, regardless of, of

how many people are, are surrounding you.

And again, it's a practice and we
just don't practice those things

and we get good at what we practice.

And so if we practice being in a,
in a worried state of mind all the

time, this low level state of panic,
then we're gonna get good at that.

And if we choose not to do that and we
choose to practice something else, then

you know, then we'll get good at that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean, I think many of us grow
up being trained to be anxious.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Because, yeah,
that makes us controllable.

If you're anxious about your grades, if
you're anxious about not getting punished,

if you're anxious about going to hell,
then you could be manipulated quite well.

And of course, I think many of us
did grow up to some degree that way.

So the unlearning of that is tricky,
particularly when you are being bombarded

with anxiety in, you know, amygdala
triggering media that deliberately is

there to trigger you because it makes
you keep watching and keep clicking.

And of course, what could be a better
partner to help us with that than a horse.

But we found, I, I, here's
an interesting thing.

When I moved to Germany back in
2018 it was the first time that

I had not kept my horses at home.

And because I arrived with six horses
and I didn't want to kind of, and I

couldn't just like arrive and buy a farm.

And I had to wind things
up in Texas and so on.

That takes, took a while.

And anyway, it was would've
been, you know, a massive schlep.

So I thought, well, let's just keep,
let's just downsize, let's just keep

the horses, you know, at a boarding
barn for a while while we find

our feet and look around and Yeah.

You know, be less stressful.

And so you got there,
you gotta look around.

And so, okay, well where do I go?

Where I can arrive with six now?

I don't wanna spread 'em out
all over the countryside.

That's, yeah.

So that narrowed the choices.

And then we ended up at a place and not
too far away and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

So that narrowed the choices again.

And then we ended up at a place where,
well, they're gonna live in boxes.

And when I was a kid growing
up, our horses at home, we did

have 'em in boxes overnight.

In the winter you'd bring them in, 'cause
the weather's pretty rough in that part

of England and I, but you'd let 'em
out again in the morning right away.

And these were horses that were
in either high competition work

or hunting horses or whatever.

So it's not like they were not clipped
and not doing, but they were clipped.

But you put rugs on them, you
kicked 'em out for the whole day.

You brought 'em back and
it's just what you did.

And then I was like, oh, well
no, we can't do that here.

Even though there's all these
fields, because the German

farmers don't like muddy fields.

They don't like to see the mud.

Like, oh, oh, that's old coming
from the uk because we like assume

everything's gonna be a mud bath.

Alright.

Okay.

And then I rose, wow.

My horses are not gonna
get out in the winter.

Like, yeah, they have like a
place they put 'em where they can

stand around for a couple hours.

It's not the same, right?

And these horses have to now give
wellbeing to these autistic kids

who are coming and so on and so on.

And they're just gonna be
standing there going stir crazy.

What can I do?

And so I thought, well,
crazy, that's the word.

If the horses are going crazy, then
they need to express that craziness.

So we came up with this thing called
crazy time, where I would take them up

to four of them into the covered arena at
one time and just set up obstacle courses

for them of any kind I could think of.

They liked to jump, so that included
jumps, but it wasn't just about jumps.

And I'd let 'em go and they'd go bananas
in a, in a group and for a while and do

it all and kind of then turn and look at
me like, and now, and I go, oh, I see.

They want that interaction.

So then I would change it
and then I'd say, off you go.

And they go banana for a bit and
then they'd turn around, look at me.

And then that all you got.

And then I, we, so we evolved this
pattern and then I was thinking,

yeah, but how do I, they science
me quite a lot at this crazy time.

And then after that they
got so many endorphins.

They're actually quite happy
to stand and chill for a bit.

But then of course the
regular work starts.

But this is time consuming.

And I thought anxious
again, right Time conflict.

And that's said, well,
hold on, hold on, hold on.

Why don't I get my kids
to do the crazy time?

Why don't the clients come and do the
crazy time with the horses and, oh, this

is good horsemanship and you know, team
building, gotta build the thing and so on.

And then, oh, but now I'm under
pressure because I'm also supposed

to be teaching these kids stuff
like maths and things like anxiety.

I'm like, well, hold on, hold on, hold on.

How long is the wall of the arena?

Let's walk it out.

Oh, it's 60 meters long.

Okay.

And how long does it take that
horse or that kid or that dog to

make it from one side to the other?

And can we do distance over time?

And that gets you speed.

And suddenly I realized I'd stumbled
into this massive teaching tool

that everyone's needs got met.

And it happened because I had
ended up in this really imperfect

situation, got very anxious about it,

the horses kind of showing
me what they needed.

What was interesting was

after I then left there and went
back to keeping my horses in a more

naturalistic way, which I do now
again, I realized that I should have

been doing crazy time the whole time.

That they really, really dug it like I had
been of the, of the opinion that, well,

if they turned out, that's kind of enough.

But, but actually horses are
so playful and they love this

interaction with their monkeys.

That had I not been in that position
of anxiety, I wouldn't have, you know,

stumbled into this thing that, so I,
I do feel that anxiety can sometimes

be an aid if it's a temporary state.

And it's also interesting,
there's a slight contrast

between what you guys said.

You know, Chrissy, you were saying, well,
we're often taught that we gotta be calm

all the time, but actually we gotta let
our nervous systems fluctuate because

sometimes we're actually supposed to
react, you know, appropriately to things.

Jane Pike's work, I think is really
good at showing us that sort of,

for listeners who haven't gone and
checked out Jane Pike, go check out

Jane Pike and her nervous system work.

It's top notch.

But then Mark, there you are
talking about, yes, but I

need to be cool under fire.

I need to be able to think, I need
to be, not lose my ability to assess,

control myself, et cetera, et cetera.

Discern even under anxiety,
producing pressure.

Mark Rashid: Well, but those
are two different things.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's starts
with that paradox a little.

Mark Rashid: Those are
two different things.

Anxiety and pressure.

Okay.

Mark Rashid: So pressure will cause us to.

Caused our seek system to kick in.

So while you were, while you were talking,
I was thinking, was that anxiety or was

that pressure that he was feeling Anxiety
a lot of times doesn't allow us to think.

It, it true.

It puts us in a different state of mind.

Rupert Isaacson: That's the
amygdala and cortisol, right?

Right.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: And so, but
pressure's a different thing.

Pressure causes the seek system to
kick in so that we search for answers.

So we look for a release.

So we, that's a different, it's
kind of a different ball game.

Anxiety.

I'm not, but pressure can
produce anxiety enough.

Enough, yeah.

Enough of it.

Yeah.

And without us being able to
deal with it in some kind of

positive and productive way.

So, for instance, you know, Dr.

Peters talks about, you know, in
the fifties they had a an experiment

where they put a dog on a, on
a metal floor in a little cage.

And the cage was split in two
by a, by a little wall that the,

that the dog could jump over.

And so they electrified the floor.

I guess a little light went on and
then they electrified the floor and

then the dog jumped over to the other
side where it wasn't electrified,

so it was able to get away from it.

And then they electrified turned the light
on, and that side electrified the floor.

The, the dog jumped over to
the other side and was safe.

And then eventually what they did was
they electrified both sides of the floor.

Okay.

And it, it, it was basically ended
up being learned helplessness.

So the dog just sat in the corner
and peed on itself and shook.

And, you know, which is one
of the reasons they don't do

experiments like that anymore.

But, but that's to, that's pressure to the
point where we can't deal with it anymore.

And the vast majority of situations
that we are in day to day don't

have that level of pressure.

We, we allow ourselves to
feel that much pressure.

But they, and that's kind of what I was
talking about before, is, does this situa,

is this, a friend of ours talks about it
in terms of, is it, is this a situation

or is this an, is this an emergency?

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Is it an event or an emergency?

An event or an emergency event.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: And the problem is, is that
we see too many things as, as emergencies

when they're actually just events.

Hmm.

So that's very true.

So that's why while you were talking
I was, I was thinking, I wonder if

that was actually anxiety or if it
was, or if it was pressure because you

were able to come up with solutions
pretty quickly it sounds like.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it is
interesting that what you were

talking about with which I said, well,
that's stoicism stoic philosophy.

One of the things that actually helped
me come up with that and it's, it's,

it's stoic saying, and I, I, I dunno
whether it's Epictetus or whether

it's Marcus Aurelius or both or
what or what, but it's one of them.

I think and I've often found this one
is really helpful when I'm freaking out,

is this doesn't have to be something.

It's only something if I make it something

mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Which I
think could be qualified with.

This could appear to be something.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But it may not be
something if I take a second look,

it's fair to say I think that many.

Horse owners and people in general have
been trained into over amygdala, you

know, anxiety, good work, where, as you
say, events are seen as emergencies.

Reading the stoics is helpful, and of
course meditation is helpful and so on.

But in people's day-to-day lives and their
day-to-day interactions with their horses,

what are some of the things that you
found have really helped you guys?

Because there must have been times
in your lives when you were a bit

more amygdala than you are now.

And what were the exercises that you set
yourself to go through that you found

cumulatively over the years have helped
you unlearn that way of looking at things?

Do you want, do you wanna
kick off with that, Chrissy?

'cause I know you've, you, you, you've
had your relationship with anxiety and so

on, so do you wanna lead with that one?

Crissi McDonald: Sure.

So the practices that I have mostly
have nothing to do with horses.

It is,

you know, I read all these articles
and it, and it always basically

comes back to good diet, good sleep,
good exercise, and good connection.

Hmm.

Crissi McDonald: So shaping my
life to prepare for myself in a way

that I can receive those each day.

You know, good connection, good
sleep, good nutrition good movement.

And, you know, I really enjoy reading
your books because they talk about

things as they used to be, you
know, people as they used to be.

You introduce us to people in
societies who aren't ours, and it's

a different way of looking at life.

But I feel that it's all
fundamental to all of us, you know?

Sure.

Wherever we live, wherever we're
born, whatever language we speak, we

need connection, movement, good food,
and you know, a way of looking at

the world that is more seeing it as
a whole, not just our little slice.

So I'm also interested in stoicism.

I like, I've read Marcus Aurelius
and Tic, I can never say his name

Rupert Isaacson: because I think there's
no one right way to pronounce it.

That's because none of us
really to pronounce that.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: So, so what that looks
like on a day-to-day basis is, you know,

I, I try to get as good sleep as I can.

I tailor my diet to my body's
needs, and we move a lot.

And then Mark and I are together a lot.

So that's the connection.

I keep in touch with friends.

This is a good connection
we're having today.

So this really is very nourishing.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: And then by the time
we get to the horses, I'm already

so well resourced that if something
goes hap, you know, if something goes

sideways that I feel like I can manage
it, there are days when that is not the

case and I still have to go to work.

So on those days, the bar gets really low,
you know, can I be of service to people?

I may not be able to really work with
my horse in the way I want to, but can

I show up just for this eight hours?

Can I show up for myself and
for the people who are here?

So it, yeah.

Most of the practices have
nothing to do with horses.

It's, it's like what Mark was saying
before is how do we live our lives and

then how do we take that to our horse?

And I'm, you know, I'm saying this in
about five minutes, but act in actuality

it's been about 20 years that I have
put together this way of going or

this way of being that works for me.

And, and it's not as though
it got rid of anxiety.

I just have a less contentious
relationship with it now.

Right.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

And now, right now what I'm
doing is exploring creativity.

So I just ordered watercolors and
paints and paper and I've been

drawing and, i've been reading
about how creativity can actually

take, take us out of our amygdala.

So, and, and you know, all this
too, from your work with the

Rupert Isaacson: kids as Kima said,
for happiness, practice the arts.

Crissi McDonald: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yes.

So that's, I think that's yeah,
20 years distill down into

10 minutes before we, we, we

Rupert Isaacson: go to to, to Mark's
thoughts on this though, when you, you,

you run these intensives where people,
you know, come to you for 10 days

and so on, and these are horsemanship
things as well as life things.

So a lot of these people, of course,
are coming with anxiety because they're

coming outta the world that we live in.

So what are your, when, when you meet
them, you say, okay, for this eight

hours, here I am, I'm available.

What's your,

do you have some starting rituals?

Crissi McDonald: Well, the first
thing we do is we start in the dojo.

So there's movement and breathing.

And the major component of our time
with people is verbally and non-verbally

reassuring them that they're safe.

I mean, as safe as you can be with horses,
but it's creating an environment where

they are safe to express themselves.

It's the same thing we want for horses.

Hmm.

So there's joking and laughter and.

Reassurance and, you know, letting
people know that everything's

okay, that it's gonna be fine.

And then we have a meeting in the
afternoon and we've had several

meetings like this recently where we,
we'll go around and ask people what

we do like to do while you're here.

Mm-hmm.

And

Crissi McDonald: you can, you can feel
the anxiety, you know, my horse doesn't

do this thing and I didn't do this thing.

Or my horse, when he goes to
canner, he bucks and I've come

off six times and I broke.

You know, you go around, but genuine

Rupert Isaacson: concerns, right?

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

And there's, you know, 12 people
there and, and you can just feel the

anxiety churning through the room.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: And it's really
interesting because then when it's

our turn to talk, you know, either
Mark or I'll say, you don't have to

ride today and you don't even have to
ride the whole 10 days you're here.

If you feel safe on the ground and you
and your horse are doing great, stay on

the ground it and, and the whole, you
can feel a whole room go, oh, thank God.

It's really, really interesting
how it's the pressure, right?

The pressure that then
we take into anxiety.

I have to, I'm here for 10 days.

I made the space, I paid the money,
and I need to get stuff done.

And what we come in and say is,
is it doesn't have to be that way.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Of course you have that little
bit of anxiety in the back of your

mind going, well, gosh, I hope I
give these people value for money.

And you know, if they come here, you know,
am I going to give them what they need?

And you know, and I certainly
go through that Yes.

Clinic.

Yes.

I do

Crissi McDonald: too.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

How do, what, what do you do about that?

So every do my best.

You say to somebody look, you
don't have to ride, but you know,

they really, really want to.

And you know that if they go
away without having ridden

up, they will be disappointed.

And,

but it might be the right
thing for them not to not easy.

Not easy.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: But there are lots
of things we can do that lead up to

riding and it may end with them riding.

Yeah.

Right.

So we're not gonna, we're not
gonna say, oh, you have to work.

You know, you have to lead
your horse for 10 days.

Right.

Crissi McDonald: Let's lead your
horse and see how they do tacking up.

Let's see if, how you feel after you've
been breathing for a couple days.

Let's see.

I, I find in our 10 day clinics,
it takes about four to five

days for people to unwind.

Yeah.

And then the second week is when
a lot of the work that they're

wanting to do comes through.

It's, it's really interesting to
watch the dynamic of each group and

to watch that unwinding process.

Rupert Isaacson: I could see
how much of what you're doing.

I love the fact that
you started in the Dojo.

How much of what you, you guys
are doing is done out in nature?

And if so, what sort of nature?

Crissi McDonald: All, all of it.

We're outside majority of the time,

Rupert Isaacson: but there's outside.

There's outside, you know what I mean?

There's ki and you are there in Colorado,
so there's a lot of outside yeah.

For you to make, take advantage of.

Like how do you use the nature?

Mark Rashid: We that's an interesting
thing because the ranch that we work

off of, or we work out of is 115 acres.

And some of it's developed
and some of it isn't.

And so when I say developed, you
know, there's, you know, fenced

pastures and things are cross
fenced and, and but there's a ton

of trails on the, on the grounds.

And a lot of the folks that
come to us are struggling with

fear issues or some kind of.

Anxiety issues or their horses are, Hmm.

Or both?

We, I mean, we've had people whose
horses were really struggling and

the people weren't really that much.

They just kind of accepted that this
is how my horses and, and, and other

people whose horses were fine and they
were struggling and, you know, and

kind of everything in, in between.

And we just, we basically tell
folks from the get go two things.

One of the things that we say
is that misery is optional.

Okay,

Mark Rashid: that's cool.

So if you wanna be miserable, that's fine,
but you don't have to be so that we give

them permission on the very first day.

You know, if you wanna, if
you want to take the afternoon

off, take the afternoon off.

If you, if you're, if you need to
use the restroom, use the restroom.

If you're hungry, get something to eat.

Take care of yourself.

You wanna sit in the shade, sit in the
shade, whatever it does, that part of

it, you know, it's, it's your time.

It's bought and paid for.

You take care of yourself.

So we give them permission right off
the bat to, to just be okay being there.

There is, we don't have any there's
no structure to what we do in

other, well, there's a structure
if you want to call it that, but.

We, we work with each,
everybody as an individual.

We don't do anything as a
group other than ride together.

And we have a, a huge arena
and the arena's, I don't know,

maybe an acre or a half acre.

It's a huge arena.

And so one end of the arena is for people
who wanna, you know, do trot and canner.

The other end of the arena is for
folks who wanna do just walk and trot,

there's a round pen in the arena.

So ev you know, we, we can
keep our eyes on everybody.

And we tell 'em that you
can ride out if you want.

There's trails and a lot of the folks
will go out and hike the trails first.

Mm.

Mark Rashid: And then eventually they
might go out and ride the trails.

Mm-hmm.

Depending on how they feel.

There's a big loop around the, the arena.

It's on a road, but it's, you
know, it's kind of in the forest.

And a lot of the ri, a lot of the
people that show up who didn't think

that they would be able to ride out of
a, an arena, and by the way, the, the

arena doesn't have a fence around it,
so they end up going out and riding

that big loop either by themselves
or with other, with other folks.

So we, you know, kind of let
people get comfortable with the

things that they want to do.

In their own time with
our guidance, basically.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
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Horseboy method, now established
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Equine assisted program specifically
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We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
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If you're working with families, you can
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Finally, we have taquine
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If you know anything about our
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So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Quick thought, is being of service
to people itself a cure for anxiety?

Crissi McDonald: Oh, yes.

Mark Rashid: I would say so.

Crissi McDonald: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: And therefore, presumably
back to your point to one's horse as

well, showing up and okay, maybe I
can't do that thing I was planning

to do, but what does my horse need?

And if

Mark Rashid: a big, a big part of
what we do is that people will come in

with an agenda and we will help them
understand where their horse actually is.

And you know, these are, these
are maybe the limitations that

your horse has physically or
emotionally or whatever it is.

And then they learn how to deal with those
things, either with other professionals

that are on the ranch at the time.

We have a, an amazing holistic
vet that is there mm-hmm.

Most of the time when we're there.

And, is able to step in and
help people with their horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Is that is
just living there or comes in

specifically for your workshops or,

Mark Rashid: I don't know.

She's magical, so I don't,
she doesn't live there.

She

Rupert Isaacson: manifests out
of the birch trees, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's,

Mark Rashid: she's amazing.

She is truly amazing.

She's just this little, she tries to

Crissi McDonald: schedule her.

Yeah.

She tries to schedule her
visits when, when we're there,

what's name, but she lives

what, should we be aware of her?

Crissi McDonald: Yes.

Her name is Dr.

Janet Varus.

How do you spell Far Hus?

Crissi McDonald: V-A-R-H-U-S-V-A-R-H-U-S.

Okay.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

I can give you her email
if you're interested.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to.

Sounds like someone I should be
interviewing on the on the show here.

Mark Rashid: She's pretty incredible.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Mark Rashid: But anyway, she does
have a tendency to schedule while

we're there and she rides with us.

She works on our horses and
we, and we trade out time.

So she comes to 10 day clinics, you
know, having worked on our horses.

We trade out the time.

And but yeah, she's, she's
just this little woman that

goes around and fixes things.

So, but anyway, that's part of the thing.

It's, it's, you know, it's not.

I think people come in, like
Chrissy said earlier, assuming that

these things are gonna happen and
then they're gonna feel better.

And what they actually do is they find
out that there are this whole other

set of things that don't have, don't
seem to have anything to do with the

things that they wanted to do, but
by the time they leave, they're doing

the things they wanted to by having
addressed all of these other issues.

Yeah.

So, you know, that's, that's kind
of our focus is, okay, what's

the, what's the real issue here?

You know?

And then is there some
way we can address that?

Rupert Isaacson: Is everyone
coming, coming with a quote

unquote dilemma or problem?

Or are some people just
coming for the crack?

Mark Rashid: Well, I go,
I come for the crack.

I know that.

No, I would say I would say there's
probably a majority of, I would say

if we have 10 riders, I would say
maybe eight of the 10 might have

some kind of an issue that they're
have, that they're struggling with.

Rupert Isaacson: That has brought
them to you, that they've made the

decision to come to you because of this.

Right.

So interesting.

A lot of anxiety to some
degree has brought them to you.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

And,

Mark Rashid: and, and a lot of folks
come from overseas or they come

from the other end of the country

mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: And they don't bring their
horses, so they ride ranch horses.

And so they're trying to figure
out maybe regaining confidence or

figuring out how to do transitions
cleaner or just improving their

horsemanship, that kind of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's, it's, it's interesting I just
wrote down as you were saying that, that

we get into horses in the first place

because we feel they'll,
they'll make us feel better.

Right.

As, as children we have this,
this, this will answer a dream,

a need will make me feel better.

Mark Rashid: Or you don't
even, like in my case, I didn't

even know why I liked horses.

Exactly.

I just did.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

But you do, but you think
this makes me feel better, the

presence of this Absolutely.

Visually there in the landscape.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Then of course we
get into riding and training and

this and that and, and then we,
my God, that's sort of anxious.

It's good enough, it's not good enough.

And then, and suddenly this thing
that we got into in order to feel

better is making us feel worse.

And then you are there in service
to help 'em to feel better again.

In, in, in my position.

I do have that to some degree as
well with horse training, so on.

But with the, the work we do with autism
and anxiety and trauma, it's definitely

people coming in not feeling good.

And us saying, this horse and this
nature will help you feel good.

And then in the background,
having to work out yes.

But what aspects of it will,
and it's really interesting.

The, the reason I asked about trails
in nature was in another, another

thing that I was slightly forced into.

When I began doing the whole
horse boy thing, the property I

did it on had no infrastructure.

So there was no arena,
there was no nothing.

It was, it was just me with my
kid in front of me riding around.

And then later as the program
grew and we had to train quite a

few horses to do it, it's okay.

Arenas are useful there,

convenient when you have to do a lot
of things with a lot of horses because

that footing will be good even when
the footing outside is not good.

Okay.

So we can agree that an arena
can be a good thing, but an arena

also, I feel carries a certain
innate spirit of pressure with it.

And because you think about what
goes on in arenas, it's, it's

focused attention, isn't it?

And you also think the arena, like the
Roman Arena, gladiatorial combat people

being put to death, eaten by lions,
you know, highly stressful events.

And although I suppose if
you're the public eating popcorn

watching it, perhaps not.

And they butchered to make a
Roman holiday, you know, that

Lord Byron Bower, the dying Gore.

But I think inevitably, as soon as
you enter an arena, you feel this.

So we deliberately built our
arena, our covered arena in Texas.

'cause we needed shade, man.

'cause it was, you know
what Texas is like?

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: So we built a cover,
but it was only a cover and it was open

at the side, so you could see into the
woods and the kids could like hop off

the horse and go off into the woods.

And then we realized we needed to build
trails that were circular loops because

we had kids that were runners and they
wouldn't run into a wall of ve vegetation.

They'd sort of would,
but they'd look back.

And so you could like position someone
there and, oh hey, how's it going?

And the kid would just run back to you.

Then when we came here, the amazing
thing about Germany was access.

If you see it, you can
ride it and walk it.

No one's gonna come with
a gun and run you off.

It's absolutely amazing.

I've never experienced trail
riding like this before.

Sometimes the weather can
be quite bad in the winter.

So, there I'm in the arena, but now
I'm sharing the arena with sometimes

rather grumpy German people who, and
then I'm thinking, oh gosh, now how am

I gonna keep this kid emotionally safe?

Well, I gotta get back out on the trail.

And then coming to the realization,
oh my gosh, well if autism is,

you know, the difficulty with the
relationship with the exterior world

auto, the Greek word for the self
autom selfism locked within the self.

What am I doing in this arena?

You know, I need to be out there where
planet earth is, where all the things

that this exterior world to the point
that now even with the dressage,

our entire thing is done in nature.

It's just like, we call
it dressage in nature.

It's like, I'm not saying we'll
never go into an arena, but it will

be this much of the time, everything
else that we'll do, even if it's

like the Pifi P pii, Tempe Changey
stuff, we're gonna do it out there.

And why are we gonna do it out there?

'cause it's gonna chill us out.

And the horses have a tendency
to go forward out there anyway.

But they're happy, we're
happy, we're engaged.

But without even as naturey as I am, you
know, without the kids kind of almost

forcing me into that position, I wouldn't
have come to the obvious conclusion.

I.

That, well, maybe it
feels better out there.

And then things like dressage, which
can sometimes make people feel worse

because of some anxieties that can come
along with them, you can allay that by

just going where you feel better and
and that, that's even allowed, you know?

So the fact that you're working like that
and you, you mentioned, I was intrigued,

mark as you were talking because you gave
this mental picture of the geography of

the place really well, of how the arena's
laid out, and then this loop around

it, and then these trails off from it.

And then how people might walk the
trails first and again, lay anxiety

so there's no nasty surprises.

You know, where you're gonna go, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah bum.

But we know that many horse programs
are not done like this in, in, in

fact I'd say that because of the
convenience of arenas a lot of

ings, I would say leaves one feeling
more anxious than one went went in.

And I've certainly had that experience.

Do you teach people, you guys,
how to clinic, do you teach people

how to use nature in these ways?

Do you send them home with like a
prescription saying, okay, lads, when you

get home, get outta that fucking arena.

You know, do this, do
this, do this, do this.

Like.

Have you put weirdly a sort
of a structure on that yet?

Because I, I, I think from
what you just described,

some of those people coming to your
clinics may not have that experience

at home, and they may not take that
back necessarily unless someone kind of

grants them permission to in a weird way.

Do you know what I mean?

So, yeah.

Do you make that explicit to them for the
homework when they, when they go back?

Perhaps?

Crissi McDonald: We don't have
anything specific like that.

I think that's a fabulous idea what we,
because of the nature of the property,

you know, it's, it's set within, we have
fields and we have forests, and we have,

there's a creek that runs through it.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: And it's very long so
people can walk from one end to the other.

I, from my point of view, what my hope
is, is that by experiencing that and

making that a practice for 10 days, that
they will seek that out where they are.

And sometimes we have discussions
that, that elaborate on that, you

know, just, they'll say, oh, I have
to go back to the real world now.

Right.

Crissi McDonald: Well, this.

Isn't any less real
than the one you're in.

It's just there's been a space created
for you to explore different things,

and it was your choice to explore
different things that doesn't leave

just because you leave the property.

Hmm.

Crissi McDonald: So, we'll, sometimes our
discussions get into that realm, but I

really, I really appreciate what you're
saying about nature and I, I agree.

We don't spend enough time in it.

I, I, I feel very fortunate because Mark
and I get to spend a lot of time outside.

If you're with horses, it's what you do so

Rupert Isaacson: Well, if you
are getting out of the arena.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yes.

Yes.

I'll let Mark chime in now.

Mark Rashid: Well, like Chris, you
said we don't, we don't really do,

we don't really give people homework.

Generally speaking, it's a pretty
transformative experience for people.

Hmm.

Mark Rashid: That is not our goal.

Our goal basically is to help where we
can and, and hopefully then things are

better when they, when they go away.

So, so for me, the.

That is always my, that's always
the thing that's in, in the, in the

front of my mind is how can we help
here and what can we do to help you?

And we have assistant instructors
and every day we get together with

them at the end of the day and we
talk about, okay, who did we get to?

Who did, who did we get to today?

So, you know, we wanna make sure
that everybody gets, gets some

time with at least one of us.

But we, we basically just go from
one student to the next student.

We just rotate all of us through.

And so folks are getting maybe the
same information in a different way.

And so something that I might say might
not resonate, but somebody, something

that Chrissy says basically going in the
same direction might resonate instead.

And so, you know, and we, we
basically, we, we very seldom will

spend more than about 10 or 15 minutes
at a time with any one student.

Sometimes it'll be more than
that if they really need it.

But before we can then we'll move off
of them and go to another student.

And so they make it 15
minutes of instruction.

Then maybe another 20 minutes to work
on it by themselves where there's no

pressure from any, nobody's watching 'em.

They can just work on it on their own.

And then just maybe just as they start
feeling a little overwhelmed, somebody

shows up, one of the instructors will
show up, give 'em another 10 minutes,

and then they get to do, and so
that's kind of how it works with us.

It's very low pressure of any
kind really, other than the

pressure that folks are feeling.

But even that starts to dissipate within
the first few days usually, you know, plus

we spend the first three mornings in the
dojo and that just getting people back

in their bodies makes a big difference.

Rupert Isaacson: You said we don't really
have a structure, and then you said,

well actually we do have a structure.

And then you've, what you've described
actually does sound quite structured,

but what I think perhaps I'm getting
from that is what you're saying

is the structure is not presented

in a pressure full way.

Can you talk to me about
structure, how you got, because

without structure one is lost.

You know, everything does have structures.

Nature has structures.

How do you, what structures do
you have and how do you, have you

evolved them and how have you evolved
them not to feel pressure full

Mark Rashid: well, it's interesting
'cause one of the things we tell

folks is that softness without
structure is not softness.

Hmm.

I'm not sure what it is,
but it's not softness.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: So there has to be, even
with softness, there has to be structure.

So, you know, we can just say, you
know, how many, how many muscles

are you using to do to pick your,
your coffee cup off the table?

You know, if you're using more muscle
than it, than you need to use to

pick that cup up, you're not soft.

Right.

But you're, but there's, even if you're,
if you're only using the muscles you

need, there's still structure there so
that you can pick the coffee cup up.

Mm-hmm.

So that's the first thing is
that I, I couldn't agree more

that ev their structure and
everything, including softness.

Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.

And so, okay.

The structure of softness.

Mark Rashid: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk Yeah,

please.

More.

Mark Rashid: Well,

when we very first started this
conversation, one of the things that

you mentioned was, am I soft enough?

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: And so people will
have a tendency to take that to

the extreme where they're not, for
instance, even picking their reins up.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Because they feel that's
being, that they're having, that's, you

know, so they put a big loop in their
reins, and that's them having soft hands.

But it's not, it's just they're
having a big loop in their reins.

Soft hands is, is the ability to pick
up the reins and feel all the way

through the horse, through the reins.

To me, the problem I think that
a lot of folks have is that

they either use too much tension
pressure, or they don't use enough.

And so instead of, instead of saying
to somebody, just turn your reins

loose, and then that's soft, that's.

Well, you might be soft, but there's no
structure there, there's no connection.

And then of

Rupert Isaacson: course, if you do move
your hand, it's like an amplifying wave.

Yeah.

By the time it does actually
hit the horse's mouth, it's

Mark Rashid: a big Oh yeah.

I mean, you've got so
much momentum picked up.

Yeah.

You know, you've got
three feet of rain there.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: You gotta take
up three feet of slack.

You, it's gonna, you're just
gonna magnify the issue.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: So, you know,
there are times where we'll say,

let's, let's shorten your reins.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: I'm not saying get in your
horse's mouth, I'm just saying get closer.

And then, like we talked about
earlier, we'll spend time with them

feeling each other through the
reigns with my, myself, maybe

on one side, them on the other.

And I can't tell you how many
times I've heard somebody say

that was, that was so subtle.

I I never knew that It could be that
subtle, you know, when, when we're

talking about a release mm-hmm.

For instance, and a release, a
lot of folks have been taught

to just throw the reins away.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And in fact, that's effectively
what the word in English means.

Almost a complete letting go.

It's a deceptive word release, really.

Mark Rashid: Right.

But the release can be something
as small as feeling Mm.

The tension in a muscle.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: Relaxing a little bit.

Hmm.

Mark Rashid: And, but you can't do that.

You can't feel that if you aren't there.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: You can't feel that ever
so slightly, that horse trying to relax

that muscle, just that little bit.

You can't feel it.

So that's when we're talking about
softness with structure, it's about

actually stepping in and, and becoming
part of the, part of the situation.

And that's why I think one of the,
the problems that, I wouldn't say

it's a problem, but it's one of the
things I think that folks struggle

with is that they, I think that, you
know, you're in a situation and what

you wanna do is you wanna keep the
situation at arms length and you're

outside of the situation, you're putting
yourself outside of the situation.

But by stepping into the situation
now you can become part of it.

And now you have some, you know, you
can offer some direction, you can, you

can help when you're in, it's really
difficult to do when you're outside.

Not sure if that answered
your question or not, but

Rupert Isaacson: it does.

It just raises some more
questions, which I'm gonna, yeah.

Chrisy.

Crissi McDonald: So I'll, I'll
go to the, I'll start with the.

Mundane, if you will, structure.

So breakfast is at eight,
dojo is nine to 12.

I was gonna ask

Rupert Isaacson: because I'm, you
know, I need to know what, yeah,

Crissi McDonald: here's, here's, this
is like the structure, right, of the

10 day clinic, and then we have lunch
from 12 to one, and then we're with

our horses from about one to three 30.

And then we have a meeting at
the end of the day and we talk to

everybody about what they learned
and what they like to work on the

next day, and we answer questions.

So that's the structure.

And Mark and I are pretty
good at keeping that.

The structure of the structure,
we don't often run over.

We keep things flowing through
the day so people can have the

experience they need to have.

But within that, there are a billion
permutations of what can happen.

You know, people could be in the dojo
for an hour, but then they need a break.

They could be in the dojo all
morning, but then they don't wanna

start riding right at one o'clock.

They wanna let their lunch settle.

So within the structure, you know, like
Mark was saying, desire is optional.

What that means is, is yes, we have
this schedule, but you are in no

way or shape or form required to
do every second of every minute

of every day of that schedule.

You know, the, we have 10 to 12 different
people, 10 to 12 different horses.

And so to me it's a lot like art.

You know, you.

Paint a picture and you have the
structure of the, the frame, right?

Or photography.

But you can put anything
you want on that canvas.

You can throw paint at it, you
can paint something like Monet.

So I think structure in some sense
allows us to be unstructured.

It's, I think Picasso said learn
the rules like an, like a pro.

So you can break them like an artist.

Mm.

I think that's the quote.

I really like that.

Mm, I do too.

We

Crissi McDonald: learn the rules
first so we can break them.

That's the, ah, that I don't know.

That's the joy in life really.

Rupert Isaacson: W when we we're
training people to do the work with

autism, say what, you know, what
we're saying often is, look, some this

kid frequent is coming in without an
understanding of top-down instruction

without, and feeling somewhat lost in
the world, including in their own body.

So if we impose structures on them
that make no sense, all that's going

to do is cause amygdala, explosions
and not gonna get us anything.

Right.

With someone who's already
amygdala's, already really active.

And then in the early years with what we
were doing, people often criticized us

saying, well, you guys have no structure.

And I was like, no, we do, we have a
lot of structure, but it's invisible.

Meaning that

my structure shouldn't
be the kid's problem.

Like you are coming to
have a therapy session.

Now, that's not a nice message
for a kid because that's saying

to the kid, you need therapy.

There's something wrong with you.

I've never yet met a kid
that said, I want therapy.

You know, I've met kids that
say they'd like to play.

So we call them play dates.

Mm-hmm.

So there's a, a structure right
there, which is to choose a different

language that sounds less shaming, I
don't know, or less shit, you know.

And then within that structure
we have these guidelines and the

first one is follow the child.

And there's kind of three
main ways of doing this, but

without that, you have nothing.

But that is a guideline that is
a structure that is a compass.

So, but of course, you know, following
the child might mean, say the kid gets

up on the horse 10 seconds and wants
down again, or takes three months to

get on a horse or never gets on a horse.

Doesn't matter.

What we're after is neuroplasticity.

We can do more than horses, but
if we use the horse, it's good

to use it in a certain way.

That seems to optimize it.

So here's the structure.

So I'm often trying to get
the message across that a

structure should be invisible.

Like for example, let's look at Mark.

Mark has a structure.

He's got a skeleton and he's also
got these muscles and he's got

these arteries and veins and nervous
system and a lymphatic system.

And things are moving around
in very kind of an ordered way.

But you're not really aware of that.

You're aware of Mark and, and you
have a sort of an emotional aesthetic

reaction to the entity of Mark.

But if you look at him again, you notice,
oh, he's got, look, he's got cheekbones.

'cause I can see a little shadow
under there and I can see that, you

know, his, he's got these two eyes
with a brow here and I become a

bit more aware of his structure but

only in sofar as it allows me to
interact with this thing called

Mark who can walk around and
show me what to do with a horse.

'cause if he didn't have this
structure, he'd be sort of weird.

Blobby Mark, who was sort of
organs displaced here and there.

Boneless chicken.

Mark Rashid: Boneless chicken mark.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.

Which, you know, maybe after
a long hot bath, I don't know,

bottle of whiskey, but yeah.

But the, then they also say,
well they need boundaries.

And I say, yeah, but people so often
forget that or, or seem to assume

that a boundary means a barrier.

Mm-hmm.

And

Rupert Isaacson: the problem
with barriers I've always found

is that they, they don't work.

I mean, you shut the door.

I can kick it down.

You get behind a wall, I can blow it up.

You build a fence, I can jump it
or, that's quite fun actually.

Or, and I can certainly.

Break it a window.

Mm.

Break that and probably hurt
myself at the same time.

So barriers almost invite the challenge
of, I wanna bust that because we have

this innate desire for freedom, but I
feel like a, a boundary is like, say an

epidermis, like this thing I've got, if
as I drink more beer, it expands with me.

When I go on the dry for a little bit,
it sort of contracts with me a bit.

If I cut it, it heals itself.

If I go out on a hot day, it will let
enough moisture through to cool me,

but if I go out on a cold day, it will
close off enough to keep my heating.

But it's very porous and cell membrane,
you know, and elastic to cope with things.

And

of course, in the horse world as well as
in the therapy world, we're often told no,

there are these very, very rigid rules.

And even within dressage, you know,
the, the first, they've got the training

scale, six point training scale.

The first one is rhythm.

Everyone agrees on that, blah, blah.

And then everyone forgets the second one.

The second one is relaxation.

It's like, where did that go?

You know?

Yes.

Where did that go?

Yeah, well, I can find it more easily
in the forest than I can in the arena.

So maybe,

maybe

Rupert Isaacson: it's there,
but it's certainly not there

without someone yelling at me.

So it's, it's, it's intriguing to
me that you seem to have come to a

somewhat similar conclusion where
you, you, you give a framework,

but within that framework you are
endlessly flexible and at the same

time you want to be of service.

So if somebody does come in saying, I'm
really having problems with my cancer

transition or something like that, you,
you do feel that sense of okay, well I

want to honor that need and desire and I
would like for you to leave after 10 days

feeling that you have the tool for that.

Dance me through.

I think, 'cause I think a lot of people
when they're trainers beginning in

this, what field as well as therapists,
they fe put a lot of pressure on

themselves to give that value.

And again, that comes from a good place
that comes from an honorable place.

But of course it puts on
more anxiety and more stress.

And so when you are giving people stuff
to work on and then going away, of course

as we know, sometimes they can work on it
in a way that can compound the problem.

And then you maybe come back
to them 20 minutes later.

You could find them in a state of
disorder or you could find them in a

state of, oh yes, I've achieved it.

You made it sound very easy.

It's not easy.

We know it's not easy.

So how do you, how do you do that?

How do you, how do you show somebody
something per perhaps, quite

complex, leave them alone for a bit
and come back and have faith that

Yeah, they've probably, they're
probably on a positive trajectory.

It's quite intriguing.

Please talk us through
it, how you do that.

Mark Rashid: For myself, I don't
let people get off the track.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Mark Rashid: So if I, for instance, if
I'm, I work with somebody for 10, 15

minutes during that time, I may explain
something and I will ask them if they

understand what I, what I explained.

They may say that they understand
they wanna please you, and the

their face says, I don't get it.

Yeah.

And I will oftentimes, I'll say that,

okay,

Mark Rashid: you know, in a, kind of, in
a, in a joking way, I'll say, well, I, I

heard you say yes, but your face says no.

So which one of these is, well,
I don't really get that one part.

Okay, all right, well, let's go over it.

Right.

And, and we explain to people
that it's important that if you're

not getting something, make sure
to let one of us know, because.

It doesn't help for you to be a
little bit lost, then get off track

and then, you know, and then we spend
three days trying to get you back.

But in general, what I will do is I
will usually we're either horseback

or on foot, depending on the day.

And so what we might work with
somebody, they say, they get it, looks

like they get it, they'll go off.

And while I'm working with
the next person, I will be

keeping an eye on that person.

Okay.

Mark Rashid: And if it looks like
we're getting off track, I will excuse

myself from this person and go back.

Or if there's somebody closer that
isn't doing something, I might, you

know, say their name, one of the
instructors, and then I will say the name

of the person and that's all I'll say.

And then that person will go
directly to that, that rider.

So, we have ways that we kind of work
around those things so that, so that

people never really get off track too far.

We try not to let that happen
too much if we can help it.

Yeah.

No, that's fair.

Chrissy.

Crissi McDonald: For
me it comes down to the

innate belief that we are all capable.

Hmm.

Crissi McDonald: And we can all learn.

Hmm.

I, I, I just, I have such
faith, especially people

who show up to our clinics.

They, for the most part, are so open.

They come, they wanna learn something.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe they have an issue, maybe they
don't, but that desire to improve

themselves so that they can have a better
relationship with their horse, Rupert.

That, that's what keeps me going.

Mm-hmm.

That

Crissi McDonald: is people showing
up saying, you know, I'm doing this

thing and I know I'm doing this thing
and, but I don't know how to not do

this thing and I'm hoping for some
ideas, or I'm hoping for some help.

And so, you know, when you, you work
a lot, it sounds, I you probably work

with adults too, but you also work.

I do.

You probably work with more kids?

Way more kids.

I, I'd say

Rupert Isaacson: honestly, it's,
it's half and half because we

have this other program called
ta, which is all adults, so, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Adult learning is very different.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: We have so much
more internal baggage, you know, like

anxiety and what comparing ourselves and

Rupert Isaacson: why is a
thumb not coming on my screen.

As you said, we all have baggage.

It's just, yeah.

It's, we have all these speed bumps in

Crissi McDonald: ourselves, right?

We're like, oh, I've been riding for 20
years, but I can't do X or whatever it is.

It's, it's a lot of what Mark and I do is
just tell people, you know, you're okay.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Your horse is fine.

Here's some things that we can tweak.

Yeah.

You

Crissi McDonald: know, maybe
get your horse some body work.

Maybe you get some body work.

You know, when it, when it comes right
down to it, we create an atmosphere

of it, it's going to be fine.

It's, we'll, we'll figure it out.

Whatever it is, we're here to help.

And I, I have a lot of faith in that.

Does that mean that sometimes after I'm
teaching I go, I don't think I made a

damn bit of difference that I, I will,
I will have days when I give my best

and it doesn't feel like it's enough.

Hmm.

And those are the days when
I really have to practice.

If they didn't get it from me,
they will have gotten it from one

another instructor or mark that it
is not solely my job to give them

the perfect piece of information.

It's my job to show up.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

That does help, I guess that.

Brings us to the question of tribe.

You know, one of the things when
I'm, when I'm teaching the horse

training stuff, the dressy stuff,
is I point out to people that that

whole system was evolved by tribes.

Tribes on the step.

And it was families, you know,
grand and granddad are directing it.

Mom and dad are sort of doing
it and the kids are helping.

And it's a cyclical thing,
gen intergenerational.

Mm-hmm.

And if one goes to, so we now have
this, this, this program called riots

and, and, and creating a riots club.

Our IATS riding is a
team slash tribal sport.

And that all of the fancy stuff, if
you go to any of the sort of famous

dressage schools in the world, what
you'll see is a bunch of blokes

now also women working together.

It's usually two to three per horse
at a time with the young horses.

Because one person can take the front
part, one person can take the back

part, one person can take the middle,
and it helps the horse to understand

more fluidly and quick, quicker.

But that's just simply the old way off,
the step now being done in fancy clothes.

And when I realized that I
say, oh my gosh, of course.

So if you, if someone comes to
my say, well, I can't say who

trained any one of our horses.

I, I, I know that we did, but there
is a conception as you know, I.

Within the horse world that
it, the responsibility is

on you as the horse trainer.

It's a lot of pressure to somehow
train your horse when in the ancient

world, no, no, no one did it like that.

It just didn't happen that way.

And that the more effective you
get at it where you're like,

well, I guess I could do that.

Yeah.

If I had to.

You realize that's a last
resort, not a first resort.

But it's very difficult because people
are in isolation and even if they're

in a, a, a boarding barn, they might be
in isolation, one can be in isolation

and still be surrounded by people.

It seems that what you are doing is
actually giving people that tribal context

and where we began, I'm not saying it's
the only thing you're doing, but one

of the great things you're doing is
that where we began this conversation

with softness, it's easier to feel
soft when you're getting oxytocin and

support from a good group of community.

You, you mentioned community, you
know, and connection again, is this

explicit in, in the teachings when pe
I know you say don't wanna give people

homework, but they are gonna go away,
you know, back to that real world.

And often that real world
is somewhat isolated.

Right.

And what they found with
you is that connection.

I.

Do you talk about that and,
and, and how to find that?

Mark do you wanna wanna
kick off with that?

Because a lot of people do
feel they're on their own and

that sort of are on their own.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Well,

yeah.

I mean, the, a lot of
the folks that come to us

do feel that way.

And, you know, when they come, they come
in and everybody's perfect strangers.

Well, nobody's perfect, but they're,
you know, they're, nobody knows

the, any, anybody else when they
come in and, you know, and I'm, I'm

sure that you experience this too,
but by the time they leave, you

know, they've got lifelong friends.

Yeah.

And they stay connected that way.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, they'll be, at
lunchtime, we all have lunch together

and, you know, they'll be, they'll
be putting, you know, their emails in

a group thing, you know, and Right.

So the tribe

Rupert Isaacson: finds itself basically.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

That is, that is not something that we
even think about doing when they come

in and it's just organically happens.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: And I think it helps that,
you know, it's, we're talking about

like-minded people that are coming in.

These are folks that maybe, like
you say, felt isolated and then.

You know, it reminds me a lot of the,
the summit that we were all at Yeah.

With Warwick Summit where we, we all came
in as individuals and we left as friends.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, and we've stayed in
contact and, and that kind of thing.

And, and, you know, I, I know for myself,
I kind of felt isolated in what I was

doing and how we, how I was doing it,
and have felt that way for a long time.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: But after that, it
felt like, you know, I, I don't

feel that way so much anymore.

Hmm.

And so on a, you know, it happens
even at that level, you know, the

kind of, the level that we are
at, if you want to call it that.

And, but it's that, it's that connection.

It's that want or, or need to
be around like-minded people.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Even though they may be,
somebody might be isolated, may be

living, we had a gal at one of the
clinics that was living on a little

piece of property on the Mexico border
by herself, nobody around for miles.

And she came in and, and she
felt so much better because there

were people she could talk to.

Yeah.

You know, so I.

It's, I think it's a byproduct
of, you know, I know for us, you

know, we're just trying to offer
some kindness to people and Mm.

And hope that you know
that it makes a difference.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
that you say that, and you say that

with a shrug of your shoulders as
if, well, you know, that's all we do.

It should be sort of obvious,
but that is not the norm.

Horse training, the, the world of it,
it, it, kindness is not an explicit

ethic on the training scale.

People would say, it might say, oh,
well, that, that should be implicit, but

of course it's not because we inherit
the whole thing from the military model

where of course he screamed at people
and made them fall off because that's how

you prepare them for stress in battle.

So your sergeant gets in
your face and screams at you.

If you're an infant in infantry and your
sergeant yells at you and makes you fall

off if you're in the cavalry because
they're trying to train you for that.

We've inherited it and e and it's,
it's subtly there through so much of

the, and not just through the horse
world, through the therapy world too,

I feel, because it's, because the
hierarchies of hospitals, medicine,

psychiatry there's a power structure.

And

so the fact that you say

we are just off trying to
offer some kindness that's

actually quite revolutionary.

Sort of a bit of an act
of rebellion, really

seriously.

Mark Rashid: Well, it's,
it's what I grew up with.

You know, I, since I was a kid working
with horses, that's what I grew up with.

I grew up with somebody offering
kindness, not just to the horses, but

to the people and, you know, so that
is what I've endeavored to, to do Yeah.

In, in my career.

And, um Hmm.

You know, and it, I've
found that it works.

So,

Chrisy, did you have anything?

Yeah,

Crissi McDonald: I love this.

Talk about tribe and community
because it's not in my consciousness

what little I know about it.

I've probably read in your books,
Rupert, but I like the idea.

I.

That because I know as people,
we are community connection.

Tribal

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Beings,
no matter how we insist.

Yeah.

Even if we live in a high
rise in New York, we're, we

can't escape our evolution.

Yeah.

And, and how we're put together.

And I'm really enjoying this
discussion about how, you know, we

create community or we create this
tribe even if it's only for 10 days.

Well, sometimes those connections last
for years between people and, you know,

mark and I have nothing to do with that.

That's the, the people coming
together and finding each other.

And that is another favorite part of my
job is watching friendships form from

people who never would've met otherwise.

You know, you have someone from
California and someone from

Vermont, and now they're friends.

I mean, we need that.

We need that in the world.

And so to me, yes, it's a horse
clinic and it's also more than that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's interesting you were talking earlier
about showing up and saying, well,

what, what does my horse need today?

You know, can I do that?

And now we're at what
does the human need today?

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And maybe

for the people who are not currently
at a Mark and Chrissy clinic or sitting

around the transfers in the Kalahari.

Perhaps the question then is,

how can the horse and this
equestrian life serve you?

You know, this thing of
what do you need today?

So, for example, I often think I need,
well, I used to often think that I

needed to go and work on something
with my horse, but I always knew in

the back of my mind that if I went out
for a trail ride and popped a fence

or two, I would feel really good.

And if I did this difficult technical
thing, I might or might not.

And I made a separation in my
mind between those two things.

And then I realized that's stupid.

Why can't I do the technical
thing on the trail?

And why can't I bring a sense
of the trail into the arena?

So, and again, it was autism
that helped me with this.

We were working in Ireland in
with this amazing man called David

Doyle, who I hope you meet one day,
who is also an autism dad, who's,

I, I feel he's the modern
incarnation of the Wizard.

Merlin basically does amazing things.

Mm-hmm.

And he started this place called Li Skin
at Farm based first around his daughter.

And it's grown into a
huge, wonderful thing.

And, we, the arena got built and
we began to fantasize about how we

could make the arena over to bring
nature inside on days where the

weather was just really, really rough.

And okay, we're gonna work inside.

So we came up with the idea of buying
trees and having forest that you

could set up in the arena, you could
bring it in on hand carts and the

kids could even, or the adults could
create the forest as they wished.

And then you could ride in this forest
and if it was Christmas, you could

Christmas trees, you know, whatever.

And then you could dismantle it
just like you would your jumps,

you know, and take 'em outside.

And there they are.

They sit along the side of the arena,
so they look quite nice along the wall.

And we thought, oh, this is a no brainer.

And then we went from there to, oh,
but what if the arena was a beach, you

know, and setting up couches and throw,
throw down a rug and having a little

cast iron thing we could put a fire
in and did it, you know, while horsey

stuff or therapy stuff is going on
around and, oh, this is a no brainer.

And then we went out to teach
it and it was amazing the

resistance we got with that one.

It was really interesting.

It's like, wow, here is like,
it is guaranteed happiness.

It's gonna make you feel good.

It's just gonna make you feel good to
get some trees and put them in the arena.

Just try it.

It's, it makes you happy.

It's hard not to or to put a couch
in there and lounge around on it, you

know, while someone else is lunging
up there or helping a kid down there.

Just try it.

So it was very interesting and what
I realized was that we do actually

stand in the way of our own happiness.

A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot.

And when you, so you create tribe,
you do this tribe in nature.

There you are, as you say, explicitly
in your own mind offering kindness.

When you find people arguing against
their own happiness, which I'm sure

they do, despite the framework that
they've come into, how can they not?

Because it's, it's a, how do
you help people to not talk

against their own happiness?

Mark Rashid: Misery is optional.

Rupert Isaacson: Misery is optional.

But you, what if someone's
taking that option?

Mark Rashid: Misery is optional.

That's the thing is that
we're, we're here to help.

And some people.

Aren't in a place where
they can accept it.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: So we might let them

do what they need to do.

It's 10 days, so we aren't in any rush.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

You have time for an evolution, I guess.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Mark Rashid: And if we don't push on
it a lot more times than not, I don't,

I can't really think of anybody.

Chrissy might be able to think of
somebody where they, where they

went away, not in a better place.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: I can't think of anybody.

I'm sure there is, but I can't
think of anybody right off hand.

Most of the people we see are return
people, you know, either coming back

to improve what they've already done
or they're bringing another horse that

they're struggling with or whatever.

So in situations, oftentimes we just, and
we kind of make light of it, you know?

We might even say that to somebody if
they're, if they're really struggling

and they're kind of bumping up against
their, their themselves, you know, we

might even just, you know, like in a
meeting or something, somebody might

just say, well, mis misery's optional,
you know, it's whatever, you know.

We, and by making light of it, a
lot of times people come to their

own decision that I'm, you know,
maybe I'm being a little, maybe

I'm getting in my own way here.

And then they're able to kind of
open up and feel a little better.

And we've, that doesn't happen very
often, but when it does, it's, it's

usually seems to just smooth itself out.

I don't know.

Chrissy, do you have anything to
that you would say about that?

Crissi McDonald: I think that, I
think the same thing that most of the

people who come to us leave in a, in a
lighter place than when they arrived.

You know, and we do watch a fair
amount of people beat themselves

up or be hard on themselves.

This is so interesting that you
mentioned the military background and

that, you know, we have to be mean and
bullying in order to prepare for war.

And we've taken part of that and
injected it into training people

who will probably never go to war.

Horses who will never go to war.

But that war still comes with some people.

They, they come at war with themselves.

And so it's hard, it's hard not
to be at war with their horse.

I think a lot of what we do because
we're not therapists and we don't have

a therapy arm we're all horse trainers.

Yeah.

So we have a, a line that we don't
cross because we're not qualified.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

Crissi McDonald: So we can, I'm not a

Rupert Isaacson: therapist by the way,
but it doesn't mean that, it doesn't

mean that what you do is not therapeutic.

Crissi McDonald: Correct.

So, I, like Mark was saying, I
think kindness goes a long way.

Yeah.

I think, you know, not laughing at
them, but maybe laughing with them

is helpful and it's, it really is.

Mark and I are always saying,
you know, it's gonna be okay.

Yeah.

We'll, we'll figure this out.

It's going to be okay.

And so having someone in this
case with the 10 day clinic, maybe

four or five, someone saying, you
know, we'll, we'll figure it out.

That alone, I think takes
away some of that dynamic.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

That sort of feeling of, look, I,
I absolutely believe in you and I.

Mark Rashid: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

Mark Rashid: yeah.

And just, just by saying we, it's
an inclusive thing, you know?

Mm-hmm.

It's, you're not in this by yourself here.

You know, we're, we're all in it together.

So

Rupert Isaacson: one of the things
which I found was massively useful

for me so that's now what I.

Do is I create school master
horses that people can sit on.

So if you wanna understand these
fancy, dressy things, here's a horse.

He's gonna do it for you,
happily give you the feel.

So you can't now tell me that you can't
do that thing you because you just did it.

Look, there, there it is now.

Okay.

And they'll say, you
know, but you created it.

It's not, it's cheating.

It's like, well, no, it's not cheating.

It's like, it's a, you're allowed
to have a learning curve, you know,

you're allowed to start somewhere.

And I didn't come out of my
mother's womb knowing this stuff.

I, you know, and it was sitting on
horses that knew it, that I realized,

you know, and then working on the
ground with horses that knew it.

And then little by little, and of
course all the old masters say, you

know, whether it's, or Stein or any of
these people said, take your beginner

student and put them on your best horse
on the first day in PFA so that they

can feel it, and then gradually bring
them up to the level of that horse.

And that it's quite rational.

Do you have horses that people
can sit on and feel out?

Like, do you have some, some absolute
reliables, like, I've got a couple

of horses that were like old married
couples, you know, and it's like,

okay, you know, please work with this.

You know, he, he, he, he's gonna
show you, don't, don't listen to me.

Just let zag show you, you know.

Or does it work in a different
dynamic where you show people how to

bring that side of their horse out?

Or both Just intrigued.

'cause everyone has their
own ways of doing things.

Each tribe has its own culture, I guess.

Hmm.

Mark Rashid: Chrissy, you wanna go?

Crissi McDonald: I was gonna ask you
if you wanted to go, but I can go.

Some of the horses at the ranch
that we have are really good at

being clinic horses for people,
and they will figure out who that

person is and respond accordingly.

So they're not Yeah, they're not
horses that you, you put someone

on and, and they just mindlessly
go through the motions, right?

Yeah.

They will adapt to who,
whoever they're working with.

Some of those horses
are braier than others.

Some are softer than others.

Mm-hmm.

And so depending on the student and what
they're wanting to learn, we can say,

okay, this, this is how it feels if a
horse is soft and that that's, yeah.

Not just through the reins, but
also how does it feel when you're.

Around the horse or sitting on the horse?

How do they, what, what resonance
are, you know, what, what are

you getting inside your own body?

Hmm.

Sometimes we'll let them ride our horses.

That, that's a rare occurrence.

Mm-hmm.

Especially now because we're bringing
horses along to get to that point.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: But yes, we do have
some horses where we can say, all right,

here's, here's a horse who's bracey,
maybe similar to your horse, and we can

show you how to help soften that brace
or, you know, kind on this horse and

then you can take it back to your horse.

So, yeah.

We have something, we
have something similar.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

They,

what I say is that they just
won't, they won't give it away.

Yeah.

So there's some horses there.

Like Christie said, that when you get
on 'em, you know, horses are really

good at teaching people how to ride the
way that the horses always been ridden.

And so they will, you'll get on a specific
horse that has been ridden with some heavy

hands, and that'll be the first thing
that they offer when the rider gets on.

Mm-hmm.

Now, but they also know the other thing.

They also know how to soften and.

Carry themselves nicely.

And, but a, a lot of those horses on the
ranch are horses that have been rehabbed.

Okay.

Mark Rashid: And so, our

our basic, basically our, our
head assistant instructor is our

senior assistant instructor is
the trainer there at the ranch.

So she's, she spends a lot of
time working with these horses.

So anyway, they will, somebody might get
on and if the horse offers a brace, now

the person's, you know, backing the brace
up, you know, so now the two of them.

And so that's when we can step in and
go, okay, so somebody has to be the

adult here and that's gonna be you.

So here's how we're gonna do this.

And that's when we talk about, you know,
one of us getting on one end of the reins

and the rider being on the other, showing
them what the feel to get there, what

it feels like, and then put the two of
them together so that they can come to

an understanding between the two of them.

And then there's other horses
that you could put anybody on and

they will be soft and com, you
know, and fine to be able to go.

And so usually with folks who
are struggling with anxiety.

Kind of things.

You know, those are the horses that
they might get right off the bat.

People who are are more interested in
developing more skill, we might give them

a different horse to work towards the
end goal, whatever it is that they want.

Rupert Isaacson: Again, it sounds to
me what you're describing as tribe,

horse Tribe, it's a horse tribe.

Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: That will welcome
you in and will that the horse

tribe is not just the people.

Right.

It's the equines within that
tribe who will help you.

And it's so interesting to me
how generous horses are that way.

Mm-hmm.

And as you say, with rehabbing,
you know, in the therapy horse

world, as you know, people donate
horses for a reason frequently.

'cause they've messed them up physically.

Well, you know, and

Mark Rashid: they do, they do
a lot of therapy work there.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

They,

Mark Rashid: yeah.

In fact, the owners came to see you
in Texas, the owners of the ranch.

Where did they

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

How long ago?

Oh, it's a while.

It's been a while.

Yeah, it's been a while.

I think it was right

Crissi McDonald: after Horse Boy came out.

Mark Rashid: Okay.

Okay.

But they, yeah, they came
down specifically because they

were getting into therapy work
with the, with the horses, so,

Rupert Isaacson: got it.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's a thing.

I mean, when your average therapy
horse, you donation horse mm-hmm.

You have to rehab them.

And then after a while we
realized that the rehabbing of

the horse was its own therapy.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And and then we
got caught in what we thought it

was a, you know, a time conflict of,
oh my gosh, well how are we gonna

find the time to rehab these horses
because we, God serve these kids.

And they're like, hold on, hold
on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

The clients can absolutely
do the rehabbing.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: In hand work
lunging, long reigning, yes, yes, yes.

Rebuilding.

Why can't, of course they can do this.

And then we started, and not only could
they do it, they did it incredibly well.

The horses loved them because they
were coming with so much less ego.

And then suddenly that became, oh,
we were people with trauma or, and

then we started working with the
German Army and the US Air Force

and just sort of found it something.

But it's also, it all arose actually
out of a time conflict of going,

how are we gonna rehab these horses?

You know, there's only three or
four of us thinking about this.

Wrong.

But again, tribe,

this might be, I know I would
like to continue the conversation.

Right.

And it seems to me that where we
started with softness and you, I think

you guys have given some really good.

Insights into how to
find softness internally.

And I think, I think it
really comes down to kindness.

I think you guys have actually made
explicit that you, you do have a

structure of kindness because it's
kind to bring people into the doja

and let them get together and start
with that kind of getting comfortable

in their bodies and in their minds.

And it's kind to do it over 10 days
so that people can have an evolution

and it's kind to set them up so
that they can sometimes work alone

and sometimes have that support.

And it's kind to set up a community,
a tribe of these other instructors

and so on and so forth, where actually
everyone does get the support they need.

'cause there's only one mark and
only one Chrissy and 10 people.

And so, yes, of course you need
more people and blah, blah.

And you provide all the structure
and support that is kindness.

And because people are coming
in with anxiety and often

unkindness to themselves, that's
a learned thing in our society.

And because tribe has come up in
this conversation, what I'd like

to address with your permission
in the next one is loneliness.

Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, I
think it's pretty clear that

there's an epidemic of that.

Those of us who are in the horse
world, I think have a, an unusual

solution for that

because horses are things that
do bring people to together.

Yes.

Hopefully for better, sometimes not.

And how to begin to address that.

And I think that putting this in the
mind, I think making that conversation

front and center again, this, this
podcast is equine assisted world.

We are being assisted by our equines.

You don't have to be
an autistic child or a

returning veteran with
PTSD to be suffering.

And so you, you, you seem to have actually
talked about giving people a way out of

loneliness, perhaps without knowing it.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: As you
said, it's a byproduct,

but maybe it's time for
it to be the product.

Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Because I
think the need is is is there.

'cause you know, the horses, they don't
care that much at the end of the day.

You know?

I mean, if their can transition is
clunky, I mean Yeah, it's nicer.

It feels nicer for the horse, I suppose.

Yeah.

But that's more of a
monkey thing, isn't it?

You know, really, at the end of the day
than a you, but we're monkey so Yeah.

We want a nicer Yeah.

But it was never the horse's
idea to put a monkey on.

Its back in the first place.

Right?

That's right.

And then we put then we put our
own monkeys on our own back.

So, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm kidding.

And the horse was like,
man, it's a lot of monkeys.

Yeah.

We're like monkey, monkey, monkey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Horses are saying, oh my

Rupert Isaacson: God, I got
some, I got some letters of

apology to write to some horses.

All those monkeys I brought.

Yeah.

Ruper.

I wanted to

Crissi McDonald: remark before I forget
I wanted to remark on, you said that

when you would go to barns and you would
say, take a tree and put it in the arena.

You know, make this a place where
you can explore different things and

different textures and sight and, and
how much resistance there was to that.

It is so indicative to me that we've
lost the spirit of play and curiosity.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

And the resistance to happiness at all.

Yeah.

'cause it's unfamiliar, it's become Yeah.

Unfamiliar.

And we, well, it's like

Crissi McDonald: the curiosity goes, goes
out the window and curiosity and play.

And that, that's also endemic to us.

You know, we're talking about loneliness
and these, and how we block ourselves from

happiness, but we have things that, that.

Our factory installed, you know, we come
into the world with curiosity in play.

And to hear that that is actively pushed
against is really, you know, what a,

what a remark on how we are not only as a
assess as a society, but as horse people.

You know, it's gotta be serious and
we've gotta learn the right way.

Like you said it, this canter
to bar, it has to be within 0.5

strides and the horse is going,

you know, so it, it's very interesting
to me that you, that you mention

that story that it's so clear

Mark Rashid: about Well, we get, we get
good, we get good at what we practice.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Crissi McDonald: yeah.

We're gonna be serious
with horses, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, and I've been so,
I've been so guilty of that, you know?

Crissi McDonald: Oh, I have too.

Absolutely.

I, I'm,

Rupert Isaacson: and not just with
what, I mean, everything in my

life, you know, I've done that.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Of course.

We've all done that thing.

When you do it to your horses after
a certain time, you ha, you kind of

have to notice that they're not happy
and you're pissing them off, you know?

And when you've got that,
when you've noticed that you

can't unnoticed it, you know?

Um mm-hmm.

I think, I think for a, well one
can actually be happily blind.

I think I was for a long time.

And then I went through a period of.

Really not wanting to admit that I
ever did anything wrong, you know?

And then finally going, oh man, I
think I'm, I think I'm pissing this.

Oh fuck

Crissi McDonald: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You know?

Alright, what do I do?

Crissi McDonald: Yes, I did that too.

I went from joyful and curious and loving
horses into, it's very serious and they've

gotta carry their head a certain way.

And you use this equipment and
you do this to make them go.

It got very serious for a while.

And then I started looking at the
horses and my heart was breaking.

'cause this was, this is not the
vision I imagined in my head.

You know, ha ringing and ears
back and everything tight.

And then you go the other way and
you're like, okay, I'm not, we

were talking about this earlier.

I'm not gonna do anything.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Well
that, that's an option.

I don't know that that
it, but it's an extreme.

Rupert Isaacson: It's an extreme.

Crissi McDonald: It's an extreme.

Right.

And how often do we find
happiness or joy at extremes?

Rupert Isaacson: I think too, we might

Crissi McDonald: find control.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, there can be, there
can be a misdiagnosis of effort as stress.

So now one thinks of,
well, any effort is stress.

And that's, well, yeah.

Yeah, I suppose.

But I mean, if I walked to the top
of the mountain, 'cause I chose to

walk to the top of the mountain,
there's some stress I go through

to get to the top of the mountain.

But there's, I guess, agency
in that and it also there

endorphins and it feels good.

So, you know.

When one then gets into the conversation,
you know, I've, I'm often in this

conversation, for example, about side res,
I use them because I need to build muscle.

I use 'em for about 15
minutes to build muscle.

So when I, when I go and lift some
weights or something, or do some,

not as often as I should, but yeah,
I, I, I accept that there'll be

some effort there for a short time.

And then not, or I could sort of do that
until I drop or keep that thing on that

horse for an hour and a half, you know?

No, okay.

There's a reasonable thing as, as one,
my, my biggest teacher is Luis Za.

He always pointed out, I said,
Rupert, no one ever invented a

so-called gadget to mess a horse up.

People actually only invented
those things to help matters out.

However, one can use
anything in an abusive way.

I could take this t-shirt off
and strangle myself with it.

You know, I could drive my car into
a crowd of people, or I could yes,

drive somebody to the hospital.

You know, that how you use the, the
bit can be objective torture, or it

can be something that actually releases
the jaw if someone shows you how to.

That's great.

Right.

So all of these, so, you
know, increasingly, however,

polarization and extremism.

Is something we see everywhere.

It's not just in the horse world.

And I think we certainly can
see it happening in the world.

And what does that do, but
breed isolation and loneliness.

You know, I'm now in the
against side res group.

I'm in the pro side res group.

I'm in the, you know, I'm the blue, I'm
the red, I'm the this, I'm the, that.

I'm a, you guys suck.

And, and

you know, and you've got a
bunch of horses going, whoa.

Look at the monkeys.

Just like ch

they us in

the field.

Yeah.

Ove.

Ove.

Yeah.

We would, we would love
to chat with you again.

'cause I feel like there now
there's a whole different

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Well I do think topic to
discuss loneliness though.

And, and because there's, as you say
mark misery is optional, but you don't

always know that you're taking that
option because that you, you may be so

conditioned into that option that you
don't know that there's another option.

Or you might not even
recognize misery as misery.

Again,

Mark Rashid: it, it
becomes the way you go.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

So, you know, it goes back to you
get good at what you practice.

Rupert Isaacson: As Jane Pike would
say, you know, like you, you pick up the

nervous system of your parents, and if
your, if your parents walk around like

that looking a bit defeated, you will.

If your parents walk
around like that, you will.

Mm-hmm.

You know, because you,
you're just gonna observe.

Your nervous system will
follow what it sees.

However, it's malleable
and one can recreate it.

And I would say that that's the
business that you all are in and you

happen to use ponies for that as well
as aikido and art and music and tribe.

Mm-hmm.

So indeed, can we come back and
talk about loneliness and kindness?

Yes, we'd love to.

Okay.

Yeah,

Crissi McDonald: absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, for those
of you who have not yet listened to the

previous conversation that we've had,
you will not know necessarily Mark and

Chrissy's website and how to get in them.

So please, will you tell people
how to get in contact with you and

how to come and do your workshops?

Crissi McDonald: Yes.

So my website is chrissy mcdonald.com.

C-R-I-S-S-I-M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.

And marks is mark rashid.com.

M-A-R-K-R-A-S-H-I-D.

Our clinic schedule is on Mark
site, so if you click on the

link at the top, you'll see that.

We also have other resources
such as a online classroom, and

we have a monthly teeny tiny
little newsletter that goes out.

So

Rupert Isaacson: super.

Crissi McDonald: That's how
you can get in touch with us.

Rupert Isaacson: And if they go to one of
your web marks or yours, they could end

up with both of you in the same place.

Crissi McDonald: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And the name, no Package

Crissi McDonald: Deal.

Rupert Isaacson: And the name of the
ranch where you are doing the workshops.

Happy Dog Ranch is Happy Dog Ranch.

Yeah.

Such a beautiful, and it's

Crissi McDonald: in Sedalia, Colorado.

Rupert Isaacson: Not a bad place to go.

Mark Rashid: Yeah, indeed.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

All right, my friends.

Well, thank you.

Thank you again.

Thank you,

Crissi McDonald: Ru.

Thank you

Rupert Isaacson: being brilliant again.

It's

Crissi McDonald: been a
wonderful conversation.

Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise.

Thank you.

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