From Corporate to Compassion: How Troy Shaw Built New Leaf Triangle | Ep 42
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
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As you might know from my
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And over the last 20 years,
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about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to equine Assisted World.
Today I've got Troy Shaw from NewLeaf
Triangle in Leicestershire in the uk.
One of the reasons I'm really excited to
have him is I first met Troy, God we're
gonna have to peel back through the years.
It was somewhere, it was between
the Cretaceous and the plyo scene,
I think roughly when the first
mammals appeared after the dinosaurs.
And when I first met Troy, he was
manager at, I believe Pepsi Cola
and Walker's Crisps, but a horseman
and his better half, Lorraine was
also a horseman and working in a
special needs school in in the uk.
And they made a switch, a rather sudden
switch to the equine assisted field.
And I was in at the birth of
that and I watched them say,
yeah, we're gonna do this.
And I just watched them over the years
create this, massively successful
massively positive service in the East
Midlands of the uk, really from nothing.
But if you look at it now, you think, oh,
these guys must have, you know, come from
so much money and because it's just, you
know, you've got two now, three locations.
And so I think for the listeners and
the viewers to really know your story,
Troy, Troy, of how you and Lorraine
bootstrapped this thing up, I think
would be really educational for a lot of
us because you came in like through the
back door and made it more successful
than a lot of people I know who've
done it through a more Orthodox way.
So tell us who you are, why
did you get involved in this?
And yeah.
And then let's go into how you've,
you've built this thing and what you do.
Troy Shaw: Okay.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for the history lesson as well.
I've forgotten all the dinosaur stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
Well, you know, back in the
di we, we have, we have, yeah,
Troy Shaw: it does feel
like a lifetime ago.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
It does.
Troy Shaw: So, yeah.
So I'm, I'm Troy a director
at New Leaf Triangle.
New Leaf Triangle started way back
in 2014, so sounds like not a long
time ago, but it's a long time ago.
And the change from that initial start
point in 2014 to where we are now is huge.
It is pretty almost unrecognizable
to the service we provide today.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So from a history perspective,
really, so this is all Lorraine's
my wife's and fellow director's
brainchild, so I'm just the pretty
one, obviously in the partnership.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's
why I had you on the show.
Troy Shaw: So she, she was effectively a
operations manager for national Charity.
And she spent most of her time in the
car up and down the country from one
end to the other looking at different
services that was being provided.
And I think by chance she met
you at one of the services she
was working for or working at.
And, and there's
Rupert Isaacson: a funny story there
actually, which I wanna tell after this.
Yeah, but you go on.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And, and, and I think if I, if the story
I've got from that one is she, she said
she'd met this interesting guy called
Rupert, you know, dressed like a cowboy.
And I think I was working at Walker's
at the time for PepsiCo and she
said, we're gonna go meet him.
And it was like, oh okay.
Where Oh, soho when?
Tonight.
So we both, and for those
Rupert Isaacson: listeners who dunno what
he means by Soho, so this, they live up
in, Troy and Lorraine live up in about
two and a half hours north of London.
Soho is of course the middle of London.
So she's telling him, no, we're
gonna drive, you know, two and
a half, three hours to meet this
bloke that you've never heard of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Yeah, no.
So we, we, we, I actually finished
work five o'clock or something.
I think we actually got the train
in the end rather than drive.
So we trundled down to soho, sat, I can't
even what the restaurant's name is now.
But I just remember being like a, a
real whirlwind experience of like,
you know, whoa, what's going on?
Yes.
And then then the, the train journey
back was just a, you know, like
a head spinning moment of, oh,
Blamy, maybe we could do something.
And the rain was like really hooked
on it and the opportunity arose
and almost like the little nudge
you need to take that leap of faith
and start something for ourselves.
We al already had the facilities to an
extent, so we had the the land and the
sites, but nothing like it is today.
And so we had a sort of starting point and
a place to start from, but that's where
the initial sort of kickoff came from.
So 2014 it was right, let's go
and do this and let's go and
register on company's house.
And, you know, we're gonna start a
business that's predominantly working
around young children with autism.
That was Lorraine's
background, her specialism.
So she's got a master's in
autism, so she's a really sort of
academically clued up in the area.
So it seemed like a natural
progression to go into that field.
And it started off very, very steadily.
With a, a couple of children
that came at the weekend.
So, and I think one of them was one of
the guys you met years and years ago.
And he, he was a very interesting
character and we sort of
just did weekend activities.
All we did was every Saturday and Sunday.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
'cause you was, you still had
your day job at this point.
I still, I was still
Troy Shaw: working at Walker, so 2014
I was still at Walker's every day,
so I volunteered at the weekends.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Who just sort of support
and get involved and learn really.
So I, I've got no background in this,
so I had to learn through hands-on
experience and trying to understand
the world of, you know, Lorraine's life
and her background and stuff like that.
I had to learn through putting my feet on
the ground and understanding it that way.
So we had, we started for a
couple of students and I was
still working at Walker's.
And then we had another slightly older
child came during the week who was
more, less on the autism side, but
more on the social emotional side and
just needed some support in his own
sort of mental health and how he worked
and how he saw the world and stuff.
So Lorraine worked closely
with him on a one-to-one basis.
I was still at Walkers again and they
were, they were doing things just
like using the environment, using
the countryside, using the tools
to hand to actually get involved
and build things and create things.
Which is, is quite interesting
'cause Lorraine's background's
not in creating things.
So she was learning at the same time.
So they were, they were building
things like little brick built
goat hooks, which is like wow.
From scratch.
So they were both learning through,
you know, just doing it and exploring
and that, that was sort of fantastic.
So, but still very, very low coverage.
So we still got the students at
the weekend and then this one
child that came during the week.
Mm-hmm.
And then leaping forwards a little bit,
we started to work with a local college,
a local special needs college, and they
would send several students over couple
of times a week to use the environment
to start to explore the horses and try
and build some of their own capability.
And that, that went on
for a, a year or so.
But again, it was just Lorraine.
And I think by that time we
just employed somebody else on a
part-time basis to support Lorraine.
And then I noticed from the
background that she, Lorraine
was having a lot of fun.
And, and I wasn't funnily enough.
So I was going to work in the morning at
six o'clock and when we both got home, at
the end of the day, we were very different
people in our How's your day been?
I was like, oh, you know, all this and
the finance and all the things you get in
all the corporate world where Lorraine was
like, oh, I've done this, it's been great,
and I've been building this, and I'm, you
know, it's like a bit, hang on a second.
Something's not quite right here.
So in 2016, as the work for us
started to increase, I took the
gamble to leave my corporate job,
Rupert Isaacson: which was a
hell of a risk, a massive risk.
Very secure job.
Yeah.
You had a nice paycheck, you
know, you could support the
work that Lorraine was doing.
You pulling out of your corporate
job in a funny way, put that at risk.
And yet you went for it.
Talk to us about, like, did you have some
gut feeling that it would really be okay?
'cause as you say, you didn't
have a background in this.
What, what made you take that big leap?
Because you're also a dad.
I mean, you know, it's, you've got, you've
got financial commitments, you know, you,
Troy Shaw: yeah.
It's a real difficult one to answer,
but I think it's one of those things,
you just work on emotions at the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: So you see
how your life is going.
And the, the corporate world
where I was working was fantastic.
It was a great company to work for.
Had all the benefits you can have,
you know, the financial benefits
of a a, a really good pension plan.
So, you know, looking at the end goal of
a pension, you're thinking, oh, fantastic.
I could just work up to that point.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But there was
just that missing ingredient.
I could, I could see
Lorraine was having fun.
And that's something you don't
normally see at work, is that right?
Ingrained fun and, and you're seeing
people and making a difference.
Sounds like a bit of a cliche, making
a difference, but you could actually
physic you see the difference.
Well, cliches
Rupert Isaacson: a cliche
'cause they're true.
Yeah, yeah.
But
Troy Shaw: you very often are
very seldom see that difference
playing out in front of you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You know, and so by this time
we were doing things like weekend camps.
So during the summer holidays we'd
got our TPS up and we were bringing
families in at the weekends.
And I was working more and more
with students and I was getting
more and more of the, seeing
more and more of the outcomes.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: And being part of the
outcomes and sort of just seeing
how, not just individuals which had
a diagnosis, diagnosis of some kind.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
The whole
Troy Shaw: family were benefiting
from what we were doing.
Yeah.
So I was getting, it's almost like
getting hooked on it, if that makes sense.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I
absolutely know what you mean.
'cause of course this is, it
describes a lot of my own journey too.
Yeah.
Even though of course I was, you
know, pulled into it 'cause of my son.
Yeah.
Very, very quickly I saw how
fulfilling this work was.
Yeah, yeah.
I know exactly what you mean.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And, and it, and it was sort of like
a, and I think one of the, one of the
trigger points for me was we had a, a
family that came and they had a young
boy who was preverbal at the time,
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh,
Troy Shaw: and he, he just wouldn't talk.
His behavior was quite extreme.
He wouldn't talk.
And he came to us for family sessions
over the summer holidays and he
camped and really, really quickly
he started talking and he started,
just starts with a couple of words
and it starts with a few more words.
And then, then the, how old
came, he was six at the time.
I actually saw him when he came to
our 10 year anniversary last year.
And he's like a, he's like a grownup now,
and he's so polite and he's articulate
and it's like, it's a different person.
Right.
It's, it's such an amazing thing to
have been on that person's journey.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Troy Shaw: And to be sort
of instru in the start.
But he, he was in the very early days
and we did things like back riding.
So he was on the horse with me, and
we'd be going round with some horr.
Yeah.
We'd, he'd be coming
round the arena with me.
We'd be trotting around, cantering
around, and he'd be giggling and
we'd be playing cowboys and, you
know, all things I like to do anyway.
So all I was doing was just playing
at the same time as he was playing.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Troy Shaw: And he was talking and
chatting away and, you know, and
it became an addiction almost.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Troy Shaw: So I wanted part of
that and I could see the benefit.
It, like I say, it's a gamble, but
sometimes you can't regret what you try.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
And you've obviously made a go of it.
What did you, did you, I'm just
thinking about other people who are
listening now and, and watching.
Yeah.
Who might be thinking, well, you
know, maybe I'm in the same position.
Troy was, maybe I've got a nice job.
Maybe I'm feeling unfulfilled.
Maybe I want to do this.
Or my spouse is doing this.
But I don't quite know how
I'm gonna take that leap.
Is it, you know, fiscally responsible,
I've got kids, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So obviously all of these
things went through your mind.
Mm-hmm.
How did you make a go of it?
Like what, I know that there was a
point where you said, you know, sort it,
I'm just going to have a go and do it.
But at the same time, you would've
also had a plan in the back of
your mind saying, okay, I have
to replace some of that security.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How am I gonna do that?
Troy Shaw: So, we were lucky when I left
for, 'cause we got a little bit of money.
Which we could use to effectively pay me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: While in that transition
period, while we were sort of like
growing the business, so we were, yeah.
We, the risk was smaller,
but it was still a risk.
'cause that partly never sort of lasted.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And you said
goodbye to the pension at
that point, I should imagine.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
The pension got frozen and that was it.
Yeah.
So there's no pension, so there's
no more golden handshake in 20 years
time or 30 years time from there.
Right.
So that, that had gone.
But it is I don't know.
I think if I keep talking through this
now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think of myself.
Why did I do it?
Oh my God.
Rupert Isaacson: You
could go back to walkers.
Yeah.
I
Troy Shaw: could've retired by now, but
it, we took the risk and there wasn't
the income to cover me on my wages
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: At that time.
So I was basically paying for myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And it is a huge risk.
It's, I, I'm, I suppose one of the
reasons why it works so well with Lorraine
now, we've both got very different
skill sets and different backgrounds.
Okay.
So, Lorraine, with her real in-depth
knowledge and her, I don't know,
expertise in the field, not just of
autism, but of education itself as well.
And her, her, I don't know, just
her sheer capability in that field
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Troy Shaw: Gave me the confidence
to know that, you know what,
we have got an expert here.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And then
Troy Shaw: with me, with
my equine background.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: It sort of fits well, so I
can, I could take on the horse side of
things and make that work and make it
work safely and also develop horses and
bring them to where they need to be.
Right.
Is still out there doing the, you know,
the, the, the real, the real hard work,
the challenge you work, which is making
yourself credible with local authorities.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I think that's, that's the
key of where I want to get to.
Yeah.
And by the way for listeners and, and
viewers who don't know Troy's background,
which I should have talked about earlier,
Troy came out of the household cavalry.
So, and Leicestershire, which is
that area of the UK where they're
operating from, which is partly
where I grew up as well, is a very,
very, very entrenched horse culture.
It's probably one of the big horse
cultures in the world, really.
Mm-hmm.
Jumping and cross country riding
as we know it was actually invented
there in the late 18th century.
It's an interesting history.
So I know the background that
Troy comes out of in terms of that
really solid old school horseman.
This is how you produce like fit
muscle horses who are good in
the head can do the job and can
stand up to work over 20 years.
No problem with that kind of
equine wellbeing they call it now.
Mm-hmm.
When you and I were kids
they didn't call it that.
They just call, call it a horse
that can do the job, you know?
Yeah.
But obviously the wellbeing's
a huge part of that, and it's
interesting that you sort of.
Brought that in.
I think that that's often kind of
a missing link within the equine
assisted world because a lot of
people that are attracted to it don't
necessarily have that same solid
background that say you did coming out.
But then you talked about, just
now, you touched on Lorraine making
herself credible to local authorities.
Yeah.
And I guess that is the beginning
of talking about that financial
security bit and the longevity piece.
Yeah.
Because as a lot of people know
who run these programs, if you are
endlessly fundraising, and we talked
about this a little bit before I hit
record you can get kind of caught in
a loop of never quite having enough.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas if you can get to that point
where you're being paid for your
services properly by local authorities,
then you have that stability that
say a school or so, you know, a a,
a mental health service would have
that's, you know, un under government.
So how did you guys
engineer that credibility?
What, what was the sort of 1, 2, 3
learning curve that you had to go through?
What steps did you have to implement?
Troy Shaw: So I, I think probably
the biggest thing from a credibility
perspective is having the paperwork.
Sits in the background.
So it's probably the, the most boring
side of the business is the paperwork
and the procedures and the legislation
and all of those kind of things.
But without those, you can't talk
the same language as the people that
are potentially promoting you inside.
Can you be specific?
Rupert Isaacson: What, when you say
paperwork, what do you actually mean?
Troy Shaw: Risk assessments for start, we
have risk assessment for everything we do.
So every kind of activity
has its own risk assessment.
And those risk assessments
grow as the business grows or
as the world grows, I guess.
'cause something new will be
found that now adds a, a, a need
for another risk assessment.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Troy Shaw: So they, they, they
tend to grow with the business, but
then there's also the procedural
documentation, the how tos and stuff
like that, which are also as important,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Troy Shaw: So when you have those, when
you get those conversations of local
authorities coming around to pay a visit
and you've got all that information to
hand, they can almost si a, a bit of a
relief and go, oh, thank gosh for that.
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
Troy Shaw: They sort of know
what they're talking about.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you, what
you're saying basically is these,
the local authorities have an
obligation to provide these services.
Yeah.
But they can't provide these services
unless you make it possible for them to
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: By
speaking that language.
How do you approach the services that you
know, because it's very interesting for
me, as you know, I came up through a very
different route 'cause I was in Texas.
Mm-hmm.
There is no government money
for anything, you know, it's
just completely the wild West.
So there we absolutely had to rely
on fundraising, but of course,
horse Boy foundation and horse boy
in general became a global thing.
So now I'm fascinated by how each group
of people build it in their place.
Yeah.
So yeah, I, I would not even know
how to approach local authorities
and, and so how does one do that?
Troy Shaw: So we're, we're, it's a
real strange journey, to be honest.
So when we, when we first started,
as you know, we did quite a lot of
fundraising and we had grants and we
had a lot of help to initially get the
business off the ground and to help us
with the facilities that were required.
Well, we didn't get help with was
things like staff wages and how
we pay for the animals, how we
pay for their food, vets bills.
Right.
All those things.
Rupert Isaacson: Capital
costs, not running costs.
Yeah,
Troy Shaw: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Troy Shaw: So, and this is where
that changeover period happened
where we had to support ourselves
quite a lot in the early days.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: And it's, it sounds
almost impossible, but it's
grown fairly organically.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So we, we in the initial
days sort of made ourselves known by
going out to local, fair kind of thing.
So we'd have like a, a, a big
open event at the Kerr Theater in
Leicester where providers would
go and talk about what they did.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: And in those early days,
we, we had all the facilities, but
we didn't have all of the students.
We had, we can do this, we can do that.
You know, we have all these horses
and we can help with the mental
health with people, especially
around the autism side of things.
Mm-hmm.
But that was our offering at the time.
Mm-hmm.
And it's, we've not really
gone out and pedaled that.
We've local authorities.
What we've done is we've, we did
those faires in the first couple of
early years, so 2015, 16, probably 17.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: And as the students started to
roll in, it's grown through word of mouth.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And not, not through
our word of mouth, not from us
going out and saying, you know,
we please come and do our program.
This what we provide.
It's grown through our customer base.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Because just the service
is a good service.
Troy Shaw: I say, so local authorities
Rupert Isaacson: so do they contact you?
The local authorities
end up contacting you?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Or
Rupert Isaacson: schools.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So
Troy Shaw: we don't, we, we don't
advertise, we don't chase business.
We don't chase work at the moment.
It is done organically
through word of mouth.
So there was
Rupert Isaacson: never a moment where
you were like knocking on the doors of
schools and local health authorities?
Troy Shaw: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
No.
Troy Shaw: In the early days, like
I say, we'd go to these events where
you'd sit in a room with other providers
who were doing a similar kind of
thing, but not in the outdoors and
not with a horse boy method or with
any kind of animal intervention Yeah.
Or environment thoughts.
It was all done.
You know, we just went to these open
days where we'd stand there for the
day in front of a big flip chart.
We have lots of pictures of the
activities we'd done at the weekend.
Mm-hmm.
I, I, I would probably
go dressed as a cowboy.
'cause it always generates
interest when you go there.
It does.
Absolutely.
And look at you and go,
Rupert Isaacson: always
wear those britches.
Yeah, I always do.
Can start a conversation.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Well, let's not
go down that one again.
But then, but then, but then it
generates people's interest and intrigue
and you start talking and, and it's
quite easy to talk about these things
with a real huge degree of passion.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Troy Shaw: And once you
do that, people get.
Hooked on it doesn't mean you're gonna
generate the income, but people will
start to remember and start to think
about you in their, in their day to day
and the what ifs, et cetera, et cetera.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So
Troy Shaw: we, that, that's how we
sort of put ourselves out there.
We didn't go knocking on people's doors.
What of one of the things actually did
change and had a big massive credibility
thing for us in the early days.
Mm-hmm.
I used to work with a, a young
lad over the weekends who used to
come with his mother and father.
And he, he was really, really unconfident.
You know, I can't remember how old he was
at the time, but he was fairly unconfident
and what we did, it got him to a point
where he came with me to a local council
meeting at night and talked about what
we did ah, and how it changed his life.
And he sort of sat there and
this, this is a guy who's fairly
unconfident and he's, he's sitting
in front of this crowd of people all
staring up at him on the platform
and he's talking about what he does.
And that was like a, you know,
that was a proper moment.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
No, it's, it's intriguing to me.
'cause I had assumed, I had assumed
that having watched your progress over
the, the last years, I'd assumed that
you had a mechanism for approaching
the authorities and the schools.
So I'm intrigued actually that
it was the other way around.
Yeah.
You know, I just, here, I want
to back up a little bit because I
said I had a funny story to tell.
About that night that, you know, we met.
But I think it's not just funny, it's,
it's sort of poignant because I think
it also does serve as, you know, if,
if someone is listening to this and
they're hovering about whether or not
they should take the leap to do something
like what you've done or what I've done.
So as, as you know, Troy the, the way
it happened was I had actually been sent
to have a meeting with this school in
Buckinghamshire, I think it was which
was a residential school for kids with
slightly, you know, severe autism and had
been set up by somebody who runs charities
in the UK and they said, oh, this is quite
a big organization and you should go.
And so they said, yeah, we'll
talk to this Rupert guy.
So, I show up as you say, you know, in
my cowboy boots and everything and as
I'm, I, I approach this huge building.
'cause of course it's an
old stately home right.
Set in Parkland and
think, oh, this is nice.
You know, kids must be
running around in nature.
And, and of course I, there's not
a kid in sight under the trees.
And then I go in and inside
it's just like a prison.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I'm sat
there in the room waiting for the
people to come in to talk to me.
And I see down in the courtyard,
below the window, there's this
autistic boy with a minder.
And.
The boy is clearly miserable.
Troy Shaw: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Crying and yeah,
let's just say expressing suffering
and the young-ish minder male,
just not engaged, just impatient.
Just, and the, and,
and, you know, concrete.
And, you know, I've just come
from, and I, I'm gonna talk to
these guys about horse boy method
and movement, method and nature.
And like, they're, they're, they're just,
they're not gonna be interested, you know?
And so, sure enough, you know, the
people come in and I give them my, my
spiel and I can just see their eyes
going, well, we are not gonna do this.
And of course, Lorraine was in the room.
She was one of the people.
And I couldn't read her at all.
I was just, but I could read that
this was not gonna be a trip that was
gonna result in horse boy method or
movement method being in this school.
That was clear.
And it made me very sad because I
was like, wow, you guys are gonna
really make the decision to just
effectively do the wrong thing.
Yeah.
And okay, you may not like me, but there
is no there's no question anymore among
the neuroscientists that if you want
mental health, good mental health, you've
gotta have nature, you've gotta have
movement, you've gotta have these things.
You've gotta have compassion, you know?
So whether it's me or someone
else, you, you're gonna have
to make some sort of change.
But Lorraine, your wife
then pulled me aside.
After that meeting and said, can't
talk here, can we go get a coffee?
And I was like, sure.
And so I had to then go take a taxi
to go get a train from Ailsbury or
wherever it was, back into London
to, and so we agreed to meet there.
And Lorraine just said, and obviously,
you know, your wife is somebody
who gets things done, you know?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
She sort of just took me aside and
said, Ru all right, I heard it.
Absolutely.
I wanna do this, but I
wanna do this privately.
Yeah.
And I'm like, wow, I'm so, how glad
am I that I went to that meeting?
Because I can tell that you're one of
those people that if you say you're
gonna do something, you're gonna do
something that's clear and that there's
gonna be a way greater reach from that
than there would've been if I, you
know, if the school decided to implement
what we did in a half our sort of way.
And then of course she said, but you
know, I need to talk to my husband.
And I said, well, you know, I'm only in
London, in England for a couple of days,
and I'm meeting some of the other horse
boy people in this restaurant in Soho.
I mean, it's a long shot,
but do you guys wanna come?
She goes, yes, we'll be there.
I'm like, damn, you really
are serious, aren't you?
And then you think, well, maybe she'll
show up, maybe she won't, you know?
And then we're all there in the
restaurant and then you guys show up.
And I'm like, they showed up.
That's impressive.
And ever since then, I've
just watched you, you do it.
So, but because as you say Lorraine who's
this driving force and has this very
good academic background, and of course,
you know, a lot of knowledge of the
institutions, I assumed that she had been
able to go directly to the institutions
and drum up that business for you.
So I'm actually very
intrigued to hear that.
No, no.
It wasn't done that way,
that it was the opposite.
It was more exactly what we did at Horse
Boy with bootstrapping up and just sort
of saying, here is something that works.
And then people going, yeah, it does work.
And then going and talking to their
friends and going, this thing works,
and then the authorities coming to you.
I, I had assumed it was the other way
around, so thank you for, so, so for
those, for those listeners and viewers
who maybe are hovering, you know, just
take a little bit of a, of a page of a
leaf out of New Leaf Triangle that both
Lorraine and Troy made these kinds of
instinctive, emotional, intuitive leaps
despite coming out of very secure jobs
that you guys could have just stayed
doing what you were doing and run your
thing off at the side at weekends, right?
Yeah.
You know, so to make that
leap again, it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's just so impressive.
There,
Troy Shaw: there's always gonna be a risk
where everything you do isn't there, so.
Mm-hmm.
You know, there's probably just
as much risk as not doing it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But it's, it's interesting to hear you.
I'm used to that sort of thing, I would
say, because I've never had a job.
Right.
I mean, you know, I've
always been, you know, me.
Yeah.
But, so I've always been a freelancer.
So that sort of insecurity, you know,
I, I, I, I won't say I've always enjoyed
it, but you know, I'm used to it.
But you guys were, you know, even
before you were in the corporate
world, you're in the Army.
And in the Army they look after you.
Right.
You know, you're not gonna worry about
your paycheck, you're not gonna worry
about, you know, things like that.
You, you are to a large degree, you know,
it's, well, it is a corporate environment.
Corporate environment is
basically based on the merger.
Corporate.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, given that you, you
hadn't had that, you know, you were not
used to being a freelancer in that way
and having that insecurity, how difficult
was it for you to make the adjustment?
Troy Shaw: I don't think it, I can't
remember being difficult at all.
'cause I think, I think all of the
challenges that come with making
these big leaps and stuff like that,
were far outweighed by the fun.
Okay.
It, it, it almost sounds impossible.
And I don't wanna make it sound
like it's this big fairytale
world 'cause it's not, it's hard.
But the stuff we were doing.
Especially in the early
days, it was so, so much fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: That you are able to forget
that I might have a bill to pay tomorrow.
That's actually quite large and I've gotta
find the money for that from somewhere.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Or there's a vet's bill that
we've now got to try and cover because,
you know, that's what animals do.
But it, yeah, it was all far
outweighed by the positivity
out of it, if that makes sense.
So what I, so, and
Rupert Isaacson: I so hear you.
And I think this is, this is,
this is, you know, just not
talked about enough in our field.
It, it particularly nowadays that
it's becoming like a field, you know,
because 10 years ago when you and
I were first sort of doing it, it
wasn't a field, it was just people
like you and me doing this thing.
And now there's this thing called
equine assisted stuff and it's all
quite serious, so you can take degrees
in it now and blah, blah, blah.
But that didn't, so the crack
the fun was the whole point.
And I'm a great believer that if
that is not there, it doesn't work.
Troy Shaw: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you're not gonna
fire those neurons in the brain of, of
the service user, if you wanna call it.
Yeah.
You know, whether child or adult
the fun is the inspiration.
It's the fire, it's the spark,
it's the and I think the fun is a
little bit going from our field.
I, I, you know, I, I'm off to, to
another conference in a few days.
And I can be pretty sure that.
Fun will not be high on the
list of what's talked about.
I, I, I will make sure
it gets talked about.
Yeah.
And people will probably roll their
eyes, but talk to us about fun.
Why does fun work?
Why is fun the key here?
Troy Shaw: Because I, I think the,
the big key with fun and the, and
the thing about fun, if it's genuine,
no, there's no disguise in it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You can't hide away from
the funds aspect, and you can't hide
away from, you can't make it up.
It's not false.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And I know of our students
and families and stuff, when they
see genuine fun, it's addictive.
They, they want in.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, because
that's quality of life, isn't it?
That's mental.
That's positive.
Mental health is fun, right?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
So when, once they're, once they're in
there and they're, they're feeling that
oxytocin and, you know, they're, they're
getting involved and they, especially
in the early days when you'd get parents
who were really wound up, you know,
wound up tight because of their a the
stigma that sometimes their children
represent maybe in a supermarket or Yeah.
Just in general life.
When they saw that
actually it's not that bad.
You know, there's people here
that are prepared to have a, a
proper laugh and, you know, get
involved and do some stupid things.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And they themselves
could go, oh, blind me.
I, I can actually reconnect with my
children and have a laugh myself.
You know, some, some, some of the real
milestones is when you get a, a, a father.
Who's, you know, oh, I'm
not gonna do anything.
I'm gonna sit in the corner
and get my iPhone out, or do
whatever and just read a book.
Or getting those involved and being silly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: The, the, the benefit for
the whole family was just phenomenal.
'cause you can see there's a, there's
light switches going off everywhere
and everyone's going, blow me.
The child's going, that's my dad.
And he's, he's messing
about what's going on here.
And then the child, this parent
would be going, hang on a minute,
I've not done this for centuries.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So it's a,
Rupert Isaacson: it's a, yeah.
Fun.
Real fun.
Is life changing in to, what I
mean by that is back the idea of
neurons and new neural pathways.
What is fun?
But exploration and l and curiosity and
looking at new, even the same situation
through new eyes or new perspective.
And of course, that's going to
have a knock on effect, isn't it?
That's gonna mean that you can then
go and look at your own situation
or things that you thought were
closed doors and go, well, hold on.
Actually, no, maybe there's a way around,
because this perspective I had through
humor I I is now generalizing over to,
you know, perspectives on, you know Yeah.
Day-to-day stuff.
Talk to us about silliness.
I mean, I, I like that you bring this up.
I mean, obviously we, Brits
are quite silly people.
We pretend not to be, but we are.
But you know, through
the years I've known you.
I love that you've got this whimsical
side to you, you know, because you
were this army dude, and then you
were this corporate dude, but you
love to dress up, you love to mess
about, you have these passions that
are outside of the therapeutic side.
Like you, you, you know, you've
got this big thing with mounted
archery but you also love to go
and ride on movie sets and Yeah.
Play, dress up and do all that.
And you bring that of
course, into the sessions.
Talk to us about that whimsical thing.
What, what do you think, what does that
spark in the child or the family when they
see you getting up in medieval gear or you
Troy Shaw: I, yeah, I think, I think
it's the, it's really hard to sort of
put into words, but when I get, if I
get dressed up in something, I don't
feel like I'm getting dressed up.
I just feel like I'm putting some
clothes on today, but today I'm gonna be,
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
Troy Shaw: And it, but taking on a role,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And it, it's just, it's, and I,
and I think it, again, it comes
across as like fairly genuine.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Troy Shaw: I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not putting clothes on to
acts and I'm not playing a role.
I've just been me, but dressed
as, you know, and, and it's to
tell a story or to facilitate a
session or to just to get, yeah.
I, I engagement,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I think what comes
across from it when I see you do it.
Is, it would be really easy in
your position, Troy, to be a
kind of, I'm the authoritative,
slightly macho horseman here.
I think that when you dress up to
make, you know, a session happen, okay,
we're gonna do something medieval,
so let's dress in that costume.
Well, we're gonna do something
Napoleonic, we're gonna do something.
Let's dress in that costume.
Yeah.
Well, A of course you're teaching
history, but BI think what what it
sparks is you make yourself vulnerable.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You say to the
person, you can judge me if you want.
You can say, oh, here's this grown
man playing dress up, but you know
what, I'm gonna do it anyway and
you're gonna see why I'm doing it.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And we're gonna have a
laugh, but that vulnerability, that's it.
It takes some balls and it takes, it
takes a certain egolessness actually.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know what I mean?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
I, I'll just remember back when
I, when I first started doing
this, because I've always had a
thing about dressing up right.
From as child.
So when I was young and I used to go for
a ride on my horse, I used to dress up as
a cowboy and ride around the field as a
cowboy because that, that got me riding.
So, otherwise I probably wouldn't have
been riding if I couldn't have done that.
Like a role play kind of thing or, yes.
Where I saw myself being, but I
remember one sort of dressed up event.
I think it was a pirate.
We did a pirate day.
I was so sort of engrossed in being a
pirate that I actually forgot that I
was dressed as a pirate walking around
Tesco's, and I was wa just walking around.
I had to go and get something.
I can't remember what the event was,
but I was walking around Tesco's
dressed in full pirate kit, and
people looking at me, I'm, I'm sort
of going, what are they looking at?
What's, what's the big deal?
And I, I was sort of lost.
So lost in that world that,
you know, it became the norm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's funny
if you, I think when you do that stuff,
it allows the person watching you to think
I could take on a different persona too.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What
persona do I want to take?
And it's an interesting conversation
that's often been had around autism,
particularly people talk about masking.
Troy Shaw: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: As if
it's always negative.
And I think they're right.
It's negative if you constantly
have to mask 'cause it's no choice.
But it's also a very good
survival skill, right?
Yeah.
To blend in and let, let's say
you are, I don't know, a hunter
gatherer and you wanna go hunt deer.
Well, it makes sense to put on a
deer skin and a pair of antlers,
you will get closer to the deer.
And this, I, you know, the shamanic
side of things, you, you shapeshift,
you take on another persona in order
to get a perspective, in order to
get information, in order to get.
If you like, even a series of
instructions to better your current
situation, I would argue that the
amount of dress up that you guys do at
at NewLeaf, and I wish more people did
it is actually a shamanic exercise.
Mm-hmm.
In the same way that going to the theater
is right or go getting lost in story.
And then story of course is
transformation, isn't it?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
I, and I think it when you think about
masking, even in the neurotypical
world, everyone does it because, we'll,
depending on who we're talking to.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So it's a natural part of life
to learn how to interact with different
people based on what they expect.
So it's a, it is a way of being able
to flex your life skills really.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And meet people where they are.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
We just go to the extreme.
So we might, you know, we, you know,
it might be a cowboy or a pirate or
a dic turian or whatever it is that
we need to dress up as, but it's, it,
it just shows especially of our more
quiet, reserved students that it's
okay to just do what you want really.
And go back to that word fun again.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
'cause fun is courage, isn't it?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
' Rupert Isaacson: cause if
you're having enough fun, you
lose your fear of judgment.
Yeah.
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Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And once, once that fund's engaged,
you can pretty much do anything.
So once you've got people
laughing, you can then all the
stuff that was frightening Yeah.
Before the fund started is now on the
cards to do probably like horse, horse
riding's probably a really prime example.
Well, I'm not gonna ride a horse, not
gonna ride a horse, but now I'm laughing.
I can do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And that transfers to other Yes.
Situations in life.
Do you, I mean, you
have a lot of staff now.
How many staff do you have?
Troy Shaw: 24.
Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: not every one of
those people coming in probably has
the natural ability for dress up,
laugh, fun, and story that you do.
How do you bring that out
of people in the staff too?
Troy Shaw: And that's,
that's one of the challenges.
So you talked earlier on about
the world changing slightly and
the fun side and the, the laughter
side drifting away a little bit.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And as, as the organization
grows, you can sort of see it's harder
and harder to get that kind of early
days fun where everybody was comfortable
around each other to let themselves go.
Yeah.
So the, the way we do it at
the moment is, we'll, we'll get
in there and do it ourselves.
So we are, you know, the directors
and all the very serious people
and all that sort of stuff.
But if they see me going to work
one day dressed ridiculously,
Rupert Isaacson: yes,
Troy Shaw: it's actually okay.
It's almost like a, you
wrote it's okay to be silly.
And one, one of the things we really
keen on is when we recruit people, we,
we guess we get the cvs and we get all of
the backgrounds and all the information,
but we really need to the person who
sat in front, and you can get a really
fairly good indication of what they're
gonna be like just from a conversation.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Troy Shaw: You know, we, we get
obviously have to go through all
of the legislation, the right
recruitment process and all those.
The conversation still says what they're
gonna be like when they start work.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But a young person, you know, coming
into the field and it's, you know,
mental health and, you know, they
feel they've gotta be kind of serious.
I, I, I hear that you lead from the front.
You will come in to the workday
dressed up and say, yeah,
therefore it's all right to this.
But nonetheless, you know, when
you're dealing with people, how do
you draw out of them in the sessions?
How do you help them build that skill?
Troy Shaw: A lot to be fair on
our staff that, that most of
'em have got that there anyway.
Then they've got this, they've
got this desire to want to make
a change for people and they'll,
they'll bring the fun element in.
There's, there's always gonna
be the people that through life
that find it a little bit more
challenging to want to dress up.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You know, but even when
they don't dress up, they still
might be sat in the back laughing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
Troy Shaw: You know, because they're still
laughing, they're still taking part, you
know, they're not sitting there serious.
I don't, there's not one
of our staff that won't.
Openly ball out laughing
when something's funny.
You know, they'll absolutely,
you know, be in tears sometimes.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's so unusual.
I'm just thinking about all of the I
mean I'm, you know, we used to see joy
with horses 'cause horses joy, right?
Yeah.
That's, yeah.
You can agree.
But when I go round looking at equine
assisted things, it's not that often
that people are just like on the
floor, proper job belly laughing.
Troy Shaw: Okay.
The problem is people do it for a
textbook and, you know, a lot of the
time having the expertise because you've
read it and you're able to interpret
what it means and how it doesn't mean
necessarily that you can deliver Yeah.
On those on that text, because it, it is,
we talk about the environment quite a lot.
So there's the natural environment,
the nature around you, but
the human environment is so
much more important as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Troy Shaw: You know, if that person's
happy and engaging and laughing
and, and open and listening and all
those things, that has a massive
impact on how, how everything works.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so true.
You know, as you know, with
the Horse Boy trainings, we.
The environment's, actually the
thing we talk about the most, right?
Get the environment right.
It does 60% of your work for you.
And as you very correctly pointed out
there, human environment, huge part.
And in fact, we generally find the
human environment will, at the end of
the day, top the natural environment.
Meaning that if you went out into a
beautiful forest, but with someone
who was a complete asshole and you
felt threatened by it, wouldn't
matter how beautiful that forest was.
Your entire experience is cortisol.
It's stress and fear.
You could be in some really pretty, not
nice environment, but if you're with
the like, super empathetic, cool, nice,
funny person, it's gonna override what's
missing from the nature, isn't it?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And, and it does, it
really does work as well.
So, and that's why we're so keen
on getting the right people.
Rather how
Rupert Isaacson: do you, you you say you
can find out a lot from the conversation,
but how do you make it safe for them in
the course of like your job interviews
to say, not only is it all right to be
silly here, we actually quite, you know,
we'd like it if you show us you're silly,
Troy Shaw: you know?
I, I guess from an interview
perspective, they can't sit there and
like crack jokes off because they're
not gonna feel comfortable doing it.
Sure.
Exactly.
They're gonna be very insecure.
But you can just sort of.
Just by the way, people are, the, the
way they talk, the, the, whether they're
just reading from a text saying, I,
you know, I'm a team player and I work
alone well, and all that sort of stuff.
That all those things go out the window.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And, and it really, it shows
with our team in the first week of them
starting, whether it's for them or not.
Okay.
You can sort of say they're
coming to work and within the
first week you can sort of say,
Rupert Isaacson: Ugh,
Troy Shaw: it's not gonna work.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And it's, and it's
not as everybody thinks, it's not
based on whether it's raining or
snowing or sunny or all that's just
like a, that's out of our control.
Yes.
It's literally on how
they're finding the approach.
And what, what we've actually found
is, and it's it's only really occurred
to me just now sat here, is as the
team grows, the team's become a little
bit more self-supportive in this.
So we went through a stage where we had
less people, but more than the original.
So we were sort of losing contact
with that day-to-day stuff, and we
sort of went down the gap where the,
the, the team was bonding well, but
they weren't necessarily bringing
that fun element, if that makes sense.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Because they didn't
know how to lead it out themselves.
But now the team's got bigger.
They're starting to self support each
of the now and bring it out of each
other so that there's, you know, it's
more of a community within the team
and they're all sort of helping each
other to develop in the right direction.
Rupert Isaacson: I'd be interested,
I think maybe we should plan this
for some time in the coming year.
You know, you, I dunno how many of these
things you go out to these days, but
I, I go and speak up a lot of equine
conferences of one kind or another.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think we
should go and do something on fun.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I just think,
I just think it's being un undervalued.
And I think more people, you know,
wish they could but feel they can't.
And it might be really useful, I think,
for somebody like you to come along
and say, look, I've built this very
successful, very kind of by the book
service here, which does work with the
local councils, the local authorities, and
the local, and yet we can still be silly.
Yeah.
One does not preclude the other.
Troy Shaw: No.
I mean, the funny is the
underpinning of making things happen.
It it does unlocks that,
that self-consciousness.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: That you it does.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
It does.
You know, and, and if, if, you know,
again, it just comes down to if
what we're trying to really achieve
here is a positive mental health.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I don't see how
that can happen without laughter.
And that laughter has to be prioritized.
Now, the other side of things, of
course, is the equine wellbeing.
I know that you produce very good horses.
I've seen your horses.
I know that they're.
Fit Well.
They've got nice top lines.
They've got the things we look for.
Talk to us about how you produce your
horses and how you maintain your horses.
Troy Shaw: So I, I think probably
the starting point of our horses,
and the one thing that I always
talk about with a team is those
horses are a key member of our team.
They're not horses.
They're not riding score horses.
They are part of the team and we
need to look after them, you know,
like any other part of the team.
They're really, really important.
So we treat them in that way with
that in our mind so that their, their,
their needs are met all of the time.
Which again, for me is a
little bit like the cavalry.
So in the cavalry, the horses came
first, no matter what you've been doing.
You know, you come off troop in the color,
for example, and you do your horses first.
Before you went for a sit down
or a cup of tea or anything like
that, your horses came first.
And it's the same with ours.
The horses get looked after first.
Mm-hmm.
So their, their mental health, their
wellbeing is in the right place so
that when they're asked to do something
with a student, they're not gonna
go, well no, I don't fancy it today.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Or I don't feel like it.
They're, they're open to it
and they're keen and eager.
Rupert Isaacson: But talk, talk
to me about the nuts and bolts of
the training and the maintaining
and also the living conditions.
Like give, gimme that 1, 2, 3.
'cause because stuff that you
take for granted, a lot of people
don't, you know, that old school
horsemanship that you come out of.
Yeah, it's not something
one can take for granted.
Troy Shaw: And I think that's, that's,
that's, it's quite hard to put a a finger
on the training side of things, isn't it?
So you, you sort of
just do it organically.
You just do it because that's
what you do all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you make
sure that every horse has in the
course of their working week?
Like outside of the client sessions?
Troy Shaw: They have
all the horses live out.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That's a good
Troy Shaw: In a herd.
In a herd,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Troy Shaw: So they have their natural
environment and they get a chance to
socialize as a horse with the horses,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Troy Shaw: And they get
all the food they need.
So they're not scrubbing for food.
So they're, they're not, there's
no sort of, I don't know.
They never feel hungry,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
So they got, they've got freedom
forage and friends, right?
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: All the five freedoms.
I don't don't Right.
Whatever.
They're never remember, but Yeah.
But they get all those kind of things.
So they, they, they're
treated really well.
And when, when we work with
horses with the students,
they're treated with compassion.
So we take things at the pace
that that horse will tolerate.
Horses just like people.
Mm, different personalities.
You know, some people, some horses
don't like the girth being done up.
Some horses don't like
the saddle going on.
Some horses don't like, you
know, being interrupted while
they're eating the breakfast.
But as long as we understand
those personalities, we can then
work around them and work with
them to make them work with us.
And we sort of respect.
Each individual horse as an
individual horse and build
the program according to that.
So for example, we have a, we talk
about the archery world of things.
We have got a horse that we tried
archery with when we first started
and it was a real, no, I'm not gonna
anywhere near, I'm never gonna do that.
And we tried it a couple times
and it was quite clear that
it was never gonna happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: We could have forced that.
We could have made it happen.
You know, we could have got in
there, we could have tried all sorts
of methods and stuff and Right.
But it would've been forced and then
the horse wouldn't have been happy.
It would've done the work.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But it would've done it
from a, a, an area of resistance
and never been a hundred percent
comfortable doing what it's doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So the sim similar with the
horses when they're working with students.
Some are fine with, the students
are making lots of noise,
jumping around, flapping their
arms, you know, and jumping off.
Others don't like it.
So we'll just, we'll just mix the
personalities and from a, from training
them to get there, it's not really
training as such, it's more observation.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: So we'll just sit and we'll
watch, we'll observe, we'll know, we'll
understand and we'll try and do our
best to know each horse individually
and what they can, you know, because
there's no point forcing things.
'cause if you're forcing your horse,
you can end up with an accident and end
with a, somebody falling off in a heap.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You've done something that's
not comfortable for either of them.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And we, so we do have
going back to the paperwork side of
things, we've got a, a huge paperwork
trail with each individual horse on
what they've done, where they've,
where they've been, how they reacted.
You know, is there any concerns?
And then we have a, a, a matrix that
feeds into, to what they can and
can't do, and who they can and can't
do with either as well with a team.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right, right.
So the horse has never been put in
a position where No, they're being
forced to do something they don't wanna
Troy Shaw: do.
No.
Or, or the, the team are being put in
a position where they're working with a
horse, they're not skilled to work with.
Yes.
Or the horse is not capable
of working with them 'cause
the personalities, et cetera.
So it's, it is, it almost sounds
more complex than, well, I suppose
it's quite complex, but it's through
years of observation and watching.
Right.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: it, it, it is, it's
complex, but it's the functional
complexity in terms of like Yeah.
I, I love that you talk about
matching up personality.
Troy Shaw: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I, I see this
a lot with our work too, that sometimes
we ha we might get people who are
technically really quite good with horses,
but for whatever reason, you know, that
they and that horse don't really jive.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if I'm now
going to put that person and that
horse in a position with your kid
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that
really a, a good decision?
No.
You know, or am I forcing those two
personalities into a situation that.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
something bad can happen
Troy Shaw: unless you using that
situation to try and teach something
about an individual's own personality,
then you can sort of really get
into the nitty gritty and start
some mirroring and things like that.
But that's right.
You know, that's a another skill.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But that's still gotta happen
within certain safety protocols.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you can do that with like
horse foy for example, where you are
back riding with a kid or something
like No, that chemistry between
horse and rider has gotta be there.
And speaking about
things like back riding.
Okay, so I, I notice with your horses
nice top line, nice muscle, nice fitness.
I don't always see that when I
go to therapeutic riding places.
And I tend to jump up
and down about it a bit.
I'm like, dude, the horses are athletes.
Yes, they are.
And they're bred selectively over
the last 4,000 years to be athletes.
And if they don't get that outlet,
they go squiffy in the head.
Sometimes people take this
on, sometimes they don't.
What do you do to ensure the top
line, the fitness and the muscling
and suckling of your horses?
Talk us through the sort of 1, 2,
3 of what's your baseline that you
want to make sure that your team.
Does with the horses on
a week to week basis.
Troy Shaw: So, so our horses really the
keeping them fit is done by the students.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: So we don't, because we have
so many students now, we don't have to
do really that much intervention work.
Okay.
We keep the horses fit.
One of the things we do like to
do to keep the horses mentally fit
is change their variety slightly.
Go on.
Okay.
What we'll do is for example, we'll take
the horses to the beach, take 'em to sea.
So last week we took a
couple horses to the beach.
It's a reward for us.
It's a reward for the horses.
Right.
Or we'll take 'em to the forest.
So, or we'll take just, just
out for a general hack just
to change the environment.
You know, they'll, they love going
out for a hack and standing on
the corner eating grass while the
team just talk and have a chat.
So it, so
Rupert Isaacson: trail riding.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Right.
So again, this is something
you take that for granted.
I can tell you Troy a lot of
the places I go to do not do it.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm a great believer
that all of my horses need, whether
they're got their dressage hats on, or
whether they got their therapy hats on,
they need tons and tons of trail riding.
So obviously I try to serve
my clients on the trail.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, I'm not
battling for time, but, and then
I'm trying to vary the trails.
But I also know that, say in the UK.
You know, I'm lucky 'cause I, I
was in Texas and I was in Germany.
Now I'm here in Spain.
Trail riding is pretty easy.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: a lot of places in the
UK it's not unless you happen to have like
a really good bridal away system Right.
By you, people are often forced to
hack on the lanes, on the roads.
Yeah.
They're not safe.
People drive really fast.
So people often end up not
trail riding their horses.
Yeah.
How do you get around that problem?
Troy Shaw: We're, we're really lucky.
So, our local roads are quite quiet.
Okay.
And we've got a, a, a very good loop,
which takes about an hour to ride round
where it is safe to take the students.
Okay.
For a ride out, for a trail road hack.
Our limitation there is all about the
time that the students got with us.
Right.
So we can't go out for a day because
the student's got to go to their next
place or they've got on their agenda.
They, they, they might be with us to
do a course like an animal care course.
So they have to go and fulfill that
part of their sort of time with us.
So the, it's, it's we are lucky that we
have got those roads that are quiet and
they do have those grass verges, but you
Rupert Isaacson: are having
to ride along the roads.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Unless you have those big grass
verges along the sides of the roads.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But is they can be a blessing
and a a bit of a curse in, in both sort
of terms because the, the roads can be
a bit quick when they're a bit open.
People tend not to be
looking ahead and thinking.
But also they can be nice and relaxing.
And, but like I said, where we are, we're
very lucky to have this sort of area to
ride around where it's reasonably safe.
Rupert Isaacson: And you take your
students out on the, your, your,
your clients out on the trail.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's more of a summer thing.
'cause in the winter it's too
dark and too dingy and nobody
really wants to do it anyway.
But it's in the summer it's fantastic,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, which means
that you got to be also pretty confident
in the bomb proofing of your horses.
So if the fire engine comes
around the corner Yeah.
Your client's not gonna
get dumped or hurt.
Talk to us about that.
How do you bombproof them?
Troy Shaw: Just by exposure
really more than anything else.
So you, you, you're never gonna know what
a horse is gonna know do until you put
it in that situation to see what it does.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And it, we've had
horses come to us that, you know,
oh, it can't go past tractors.
Oh, it can't, oh, it's
terrified of tractors.
Reality is it's the rider that's terrified
of the tractors and not the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And once you put somebody
who's fairly confident in there, you
can start to get the horse on side
and get used to the environment.
The environment's always gonna be there.
You can't take the environment away.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: They just need
that exposure, how they manage
themselves in those conditions.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
But you can't, you can't do the
exposure by being out there with a kid.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
We'll do it ourselves.
We'll get, we'll, we'll go out hack.
So one of the, one of the big
paybacks for the team is this ability
to take advantage of the horses
to an extent and go out for hack.
After work in the summer, you
know, we'll go out as a group and
go, right, let's go for a hack.
Right?
This is where we can go a little bit
more onto the bridal paths through
some rivers, that kind of stuff, and
start to have a bit more fun, you know?
Yeah.
And it, it gives the horses that mental
break, but you can also give the horses
a bit more exposure to stuff that you
can't necessarily get with the students.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Troy Shaw: One, one of the things we do
do is we have very clear procedures on
what if, you know, so what happens if the
big scary tractor comes down the road?
What are you gonna do?
Mm-hmm.
Because we have, we do have horses
that have had a history that that've
looked and spook at tractors.
So we have a program, we have, you
know, we'll, we'll know exactly what
we're going to do and whether we
take the child off or take it to a
gateway or stand flapping her arms in
front of the tractor to make it stop.
Right.
It is.
We'll have something that actually
we follow to make it work and
make it work for everybody.
Rupert Isaacson: What I love about that
though is you don't take the, if you
like, the easy option of saying, well, we
just won't go out in case it's a tractor.
Troy Shaw: No.
Do,
Rupert Isaacson: because one of
the things I like about that is
if we're in the business of also
trying to help people deal with
the world, which is our job, right?
Yeah.
Then if we aren't that way with
our horses, how are we gonna
transfer it to the people?
And if, and if, one things I
love about horses is 'cause they
carry you through situations.
You know, so yeah, I might be afraid
of going up that hill, or I might be
not fit enough to go up that hill,
or the horse can carry me, or I can't
understand cognitively yet how to play a
game, but the horse can carry me through
a game and then as my neuroplasticity
develops, entry cognitively, I will be
there, but the horse can really help me.
But, you know, frequently people in the
interest of safety will often dumb it down
to the point that there is no exploration.
Yeah.
There is no risk.
Now I know that, you know, a
certain number of listeners
and viewers are gonna go risk.
You can't have risk, you know, but, but
I, I feel that you have to because you,
you can't actually get away from risk.
Troy Shaw: No.
Rupert Isaacson: So one can think,
one is controlling the environment to
get away from risk, but you and I both
know that sooner or later something
is gonna happen, like outside of
your control, they're gonna land a
helicopter in that field next to your
arena that you never leave or something.
Yeah.
And despite all your best efforts,
your horse is gonna totally freak out.
So rather have them
exposed to helicopters.
Do you, do you also take them
through like sound bomb proofing
tarpaulins that sort of thing as well?
Troy Shaw: We, we will put obstacles in
the menage like Tar Paul is on the floor.
Right.
And then because they all live in
the local area to the menage around
their fields, around the outside
of it, if we're doing a session in
there, which requires lots of noise
and stuff, they're watching it.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
They're there,
Troy Shaw: they're in the environment.
They're not, not being forced the
environment, they're actually sat watching
it from the safety of their own field.
So they're sort, they can observe it.
Yeah.
Learning from osmosis,
learning through their friends.
You know, we'll do silly things like
if we're trying to get horses used to
flags, we'll put a flag over the water
trough, they're gonna want to drink.
They're not gonna, they'll have to find
a way of getting their manage their
own sort of fear to get through that.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: And it's interesting how
you talked about the the risk level.
The thing about risk is the other
side of risk is achievement.
So once you've got through that risk,
you've actually achieved something.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You know, if you And self-esteem Yeah.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You know, it, it might
be jumping over a small cross pole.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: There's a hell
of a lot of risk in jumping.
Yeah.
Especially for a new rider.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But the achievement, once
they've done it far out risk, far
outweighs out risks as long as the
work's been done in the background.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And, you know, you take all
the precautions, which you need to leading
up without being dramatic about it.
Rupert Isaacson: It's yes.
It, it it's about preparation as you say.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But you, and maybe
Rupert Isaacson: I think your military
background helps with that because
you know, or maneuvers and operations.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Possibly
Rupert Isaacson: you are putting people.
In risky situations, but you
wanna bring 'em all back in alive.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But also get, you know,
so there must be a certain amount of that
training that rubbed off on you to think
about how do I prepare from the ground
up so that when we do have that situation
with the risk, we know that the horse and
the human are as prepared as they can be.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And, and you've also, yes, you've
done all your pre-work, you've done as
much background work as you possibly
can, but there, there comes a time
when you've almost got to say, you
know what, let's just go for it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Otherwise it becomes
like you'll never do anything
because, you know, you just won't
actually put that risk in the way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And, and then, and then
there comes a point where you say,
well actually, I better not run the
menage in case the pheasants fly
out today because they might fly.
You know, that's a bigger risk.
Or you, you, and it's like, I think
you see that in society as a whole
now you, you risk just gets in the
way of everything and people tend to
do the less risky thing of sitting
at home and look at the phones.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
No, exactly.
Which of course is a
whole other set of risks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking back to when we
were in Texas, you know, we had
everyone and their dog had guns.
Right.
So there would be so much
firearms activity going on.
And then my neighbor, Robert Nam
Vet would build his own artillery
grade ordinance and set it off Yeah.
In his front field.
Which was on the other side
of the woods from our arena.
And I'd be in there with a kid
and there'd be an explosion, which
you'd feel like in your bones.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And even though it's
happening, you know, 500 meters away.
And I'm like, what am I gonna do?
So I thought, well, I can't tell
Robert he can't set off bombs in
his field because this is Texas.
So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask
Robert if I can graze my horses in
the field where he sets his bombs off.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And a couple of my
friends from Europe were like, well,
that, you know, you can't do that 'cause
your horses will freak out and said,
well, they will initially, but I bet you
after two days they won't give a toss.
Yeah.
And then I will know that I'm safe
when he randomly does that thing.
I have no, I have no control.
He's not gonna call me and tell
me, you know, he is gonna do it.
And then it was the same
with, with my other neighbors.
They would just come and start, you know,
setting off automatic fire but often
like really close to where we were and we
just had to get the horses okay with it.
Yeah.
And so then we took it stage further
and I would think, okay, well
why don't we go down to the fire
station with our horses and slowly
bombproof them to the fire truck.
Then why don't we go to the supermarket
and why don't we go to the car wash and
why don't we, so we actually started
making a big point about all of that.
And then of course we started
including our, our students
and our clients in those Yeah.
Fun sessions.
Then we realized, oh my gosh.
All of this thing, which normally
was taking time out from, and
it is like a time conflict.
When are we gonna get the
time to bombproof the horses?
Like, no, no, no.
Hold on.
We can do that with the students
provided you know, you're not
gonna do anything too crazy.
Yeah.
They can be part of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: We had a really, a really,
really good example last year.
So we take our students to a big
BHS event, a big dressage show
jumping event over at a place called
Pickering Range in Leicester year.
And it's, it's a really big
significant thing for the students
to go out to a dressage, get
dressed up in all of the yes.
All of the requirements
of a dressage test.
And last year, or this, sorry, this year
when we went, it was a really windy day.
I mean, really windy, and they're doing
the dressage tests, but nobody thought
that the dressage boards might blow.
So the, when our students riding around
doing the nice dressage tests, and all of
a sudden these, like big plastic dressage
tests boards just lifted off the ground
into the air, there must have been the
height of the student riding the horse.
Wow.
In normal circumstances, horses would've
just completely freaked on that.
But our horses tend to be able to accept
something, changing something different
and they, they'd manage themselves.
Rupert Isaacson: We can't manage better
than the average foot horse would.
Yes.
Troy Shaw: We, we can't manage the
horses emotions for themselves.
We can't sit on the horse's back
and say, no, you are all right.
You're all right.
'cause they won't listen.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: They have to be able to
manage it themselves, you know, and
be able to go, right, rationally, what
am I gonna do now, you know, my, my,
my brain's telling me to run away.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You
Troy Shaw: know, I'll get rid of
this rider now and I'll be off into
the sunset 'cause I'll be safe then.
But, but they seem to just manage
themselves to the point where they can go.
Like we would take a deep breath, let's
think logically, which doesn't sound right
of a horse, but actually it does work.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And that's
what we try and get to.
Rupert Isaacson: Well it's
interesting you say that.
And again, I think that the, the
calvary background, the hunting
background, all of these things
bring us into these situations.
I grew up very much in the hunt
world and you just never know what
you're gonna encounter at hunting.
It could be anything.
And your horse kind of after a while
becomes kind of okay with everything.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Through
slow exposure as you say.
And sometimes strategic exposures, you
know, before you might meet something.
But I love the fact that you, you
have that example of, you know,
going to that show that happening.
I would posit that probably
some of the dressage horses
probably freaked out a lot more
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Than your horses
did because the sport rider
wouldn't necessarily feel the need
to create that safety in a horse.
No.
Because they're not dealing with the risks
that you're dealing with, with the riders.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And I think one of the other things
well is to exposing the horses is one
thing, but it's also exposing the team
to these situations so you can expose the
horses yourself to the cows come home.
But you are, if you are riding them,
you are the person who is effectively.
With them while you're exposing them.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Troy Shaw: If you don't get the rest
of the team in those circumstances,
they might be a dressage rider.
That's all they do is dressage.
So anything different
is, you know, a horror.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: They don't ride through those.
They're, they're, they're not
gonna learn that actually it
is okay to ride in the wind.
Yeah.
Or it's okay to ride, you know, in these
circumstances or those circumstances.
Right.
Feather gets
Rupert Isaacson: up in front of you.
It's not the end of the world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So you've gotta build
the, it's almost like building the,
the team's responsibility and, and
reactions as well as the horses.
Rupert Isaacson: It's true because Yeah.
It's the humans' involved also are
not freaking out when the tractor
comes or the, then the horse is gonna
take their cues from the humans.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I mean, the, the, I always
tell everybody as well, one of the
things to remember is you've got time.
It doesn't feel like you've got time,
but you can take a couple of seconds
to a think about what you're gonna do.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: This,
Troy Shaw: the circumstances,
this is what I'm gonna do.
And you can just think rationally
and it helps you just a little,
have a bit of a head start.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I, I, I'm thinking back to, you know,
this is where, again, back to where
we're talking about fun and silliness.
I think that when you've got that
kind of culture in your barn, then
there's also kind of a base under
underlying message that's always there.
Yeah.
For the horses and the humans
saying it's always all right.
It's always gonna be all right.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And most
situations will be fun actually.
Yeah.
So what that I think
breeds is a certain faith.
The horses have faith in the humans.
The humans have faith in the horses.
Give me some examples.
You know, we, we, we touched on
the dress up and the silliness.
Can you give me some examples, some
stories that stand out in your mind about
breakthroughs that happened in the course
of those silly dress up sessions And,
and why you, and, and also what, what's
the pattern of the dress up sessions,
the historical ones, the pirate ones?
When do you do them?
Why do you do them?
What makes you choose okay, to
this today's the medieval day.
Tomorrow's a pirate day.
Like what, what's the rationale
going on with all that?
And then, yeah, give us some
examples of changes you've seen
in those, in those moments.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
I,
Troy Shaw: I think the, the dress
up day sometimes just work on how
you're feel in the morning or depends
on what student you're working with.
Rupert Isaacson: So you might
just do that spontaneously.
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah.
I've got, I've got a pretty pretty
horror story for one of our new starters.
So we had a, a lady, this is going
back probably six, seven years ago.
It was her first day at work, and
I was working for a particular
student, and I decided this
week was gonna be Scottish week.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: So I dressed up in a
kilt, it wasn't a kilt, it was a
blanket that looked like a kilt.
I wrapped around my legs, but it
actually looked like a miniskirt.
And, and it sounds horrific now when
you think about it, but I had a drum.
I was marching around the yard
playing a drum in this miniskirt,
which I had trousers underneath it.
Talking Scottish and just to try
and get the student to engage
it, it worked really well.
But the, the poor new starter staff
was like, what have I let myself into?
But it, it sort of, the dressing
up doesn't really, sometimes it'll,
in fact, sometimes when you plan
it, it doesn't work as well as
it does when it's spontaneous.
Rupert Isaacson: So you'll do it
sort of by, you just wake up in the
morning and you say, you know what?
I fancy today's pirate day and Okay.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Or, and
Rupert Isaacson: so you won't necessarily
call all your staff and say, okay,
lads, today's pirate day you'll just
show up as a pirate, or, or will you
send out a bunch of texts and say it?
Troy Shaw: It's quite,
it's quite interesting.
So when we, what, what we most
of the dress up takes place
now over the holiday period.
So we'll say that the theme
for this week for the holiday
sessions is, I know we're gonna be
pirates or we're gonna be cowboys.
And the problem with that,
because you, you're reliant on
the confidence of the individuals
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: It can sometimes not
work as well because they won't
come in fully committed to it.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
A bit like kind of forced fund.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've got
Troy Shaw: to, you have to be like,
go back to the authenticity of it.
If you don't put, if you do it half cocked
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Across a lot worse
than if you didn't do it at all.
So it's something that's better done if
it's less spontaneous or more spontaneous
and people get involved through actually.
I dunno.
I, I'll get dressed up,
there's a box of stuff there.
Put it on if you want
to, that kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: Rather than
be a force kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: But will
you do it like weekly?
Will you do it monthly?
Will like months go by
and you don't do it or?
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah.
We go, we could go months without
doing any kind of dress up or
mean this time of year is perfect.
Got Halloween and stuff like that.
Yeah.
I mean, today I been up the field
this morning and half the students
have come in dressed as skeletons and
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Wizards and all sorts.
So it's great.
Like, okay.
They've really embraced the
dressing up, so that's really good.
Rupert Isaacson: And then in terms
of the silliness, like for example
Henrik and Giddy Bert Coffee run that
amazing place horse by place in Germany.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: They have all these
really cool mechanisms for sitting.
It's like they do these pillow fights
on horses and then she gi has these
toilet brushes where she uses them
as like, microphones in an interview.
Yeah.
And then she gets the kids to also
go dip them in a bucket and then
go and chuck the water from the
toilet brush at their parents.
Yeah.
And so, and then they
have like a toilet Yeah.
That sits in a sandpit.
And they pretend to use the
toilet like in front of the kids.
And of course this actually often
does end up being a breakthrough for
toilet training, but they're prepared
to make themselves very silly.
Do you have some, you know,
specific strategies like that?
Some go-tos.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: It's more of, it's
more of an underpinning rather
than a strategy, I think.
'cause once you've got that
approach in your mind you'll
use it throughout the session.
So our, our sessions are
fairly, it's education based.
Yeah.
So most of the students that come
to us are here for either taken
away a qualification, like a city in
guilds, in horse care open awards,
mass in English, that kind of stuff.
So there is a, a, a tangible outcome
from it, but it, no one can prescribe
how you get that tangible outcome.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: So the underpinning part
could be, you might say, I dunno,
I'm gonna do some maths today.
I'm gonna dress up as dick Turpen.
'cause we can talk about how long it
takes to get from London to York and the
reality of it and all that sort of stuff.
So you can use those to actually
get what you want out of it.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's just Right.
Almost like a distraction to say
don't be afraid of the maths.
Actually, we're gonna
talk about highwayman.
Yeah.
And in the course of talking
about highwaymen, we're gonna talk
about distance and then distance.
We're gonna talk about numbers, right?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Or somebody went write or read.
You can give 'em a bit of paper
and they can make a poster.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But they're now writing and
reading because they've got to, to do the
poster, but they're not doing it because
they've been told to go write and read.
They're doing it because
it's part of the fun.
Absolutely.
We'll catch Dick Turpen if we
buy, put a poster on the woods.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Right.
Troy Shaw: So it's, it's, it's all,
it's, it's hard to describe it.
We don't go out with the intention
of doing it, but it actually becomes
part of how we plan and move into
the session to get the best outcomes.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so true.
And I, yeah, I use this type
of distraction all the time.
I'm just thinking about, you know,
we often do think all crazy time with
our horses, so, I like my horses to
be able to go a bit nuts sometimes
and free jump usually in a group.
And I'll involve my students with that.
And so let's say we want to do some math.
I'm not gonna say we're doing maths.
I'm gonna say let's give some
crazy time to the horses.
They'll enjoy it.
And you'll enjoy moving
the horses as they do it.
Yeah.
But while we're doing it, I wonder how
long that long side of the arena is,
let's walk it, how many paces is it?
Yeah.
And then we can time with a stopwatch.
How long does it take for the
horses to go that distance?
And then on my cell phone, I could
do distance over time and get
speed, you know, or there can be
the heights of the jumps and the
distances and, and then there's a team
building of setting up that course.
But I want a math outcome, but I'm gonna
use something else to get that math out.
I mean, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
It sounds like you're coming
from a very similar place there.
Troy Shaw: Yeah, we, it is.
It's, it's all about how you
get the outcome, isn't it?
And how you actually get the engagement.
Rupert Isaacson: And I
Troy Shaw: think part of the reason
why a lot of the children struggle,
especially the quieter ones, is they
need something to stimulate them, to
get the engagement to, to, to that.
Well, I guess what we are
Rupert Isaacson: talking
about here is play, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All the neuroscientists now
agree that play is learning, and
learning is play, and the most
effective learning is always play.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Right.
But, but in, I get back to some days in
the corporate world, some of the times
that you probably had the best team
outputs is when you went on a team day
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And you did things which
are away from your desk, and you
were physically active and you'd
make something or you'd be silly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: People would talk about those
for a lot longer than they would do,
you know, how they got to the financial
year end and all that sort of stuff.
So it became really important.
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's so true.
And this, to, to show people
that you can enjoy life
Troy Shaw: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And that you should
enjoy life, you know, particularly
people who are coming out of, you
know, some depression and that sort of
Troy Shaw: thing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
To be around joy.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
I mean, it's really, it's really important
to, and it's quite easy to get to a
point where you forget how to laugh.
Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.
Troy Shaw: Or when to laugh or, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: or that it's, is
is it even safe to laugh, you know?
Yeah,
Troy Shaw: yeah.
But yeah, especially nowadays,
you, you, you know, you're not sure
whether the, what the triggers are.
You laugh shouldn, you laugh, you
know, and it's, it is quite hard.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, it is.
You know, I'm, I'm thinking back
to, to when I had to teach Rowan
my son to drive, he was 16.
You know, I'm now, I'm gonna
teach my autistic son to drive.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna teach him to
drive on the roads of Texas.
Terrifying.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I was terrified.
He was terrified, but he was
adamant he wanted to do it.
And so we sat there and I said to him,
how are we gonna make this unstressful?
Because I'm, I'm not gonna
lie, I'm totally stressing it.
And he said, do it in an Indian accent.
Troy Shaw: Right.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Genius.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It took, it just
made the whole thing hilarious.
Now, someone today might come, I mean,
it is still today, but, you know, when he
was 16, that's what, five, six years ago.
But the advance of, you know,
savage political correctness to the
point now that someone might say,
you can't do that Rupert, because
that's, you know, racist or that's,
you know, it's like, no, it's not.
That's not where it's coming from.
And by the way, you are very
welcome to make fun of my accent.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: If that's gonna
help teach someone autistic
to, to drive, absolutely.
Take the piss out of me.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
But it
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't a
disrespect, it wasn't a piss take.
What it was, was a distraction.
And using it for comedic effect.
But we could have used a Yorkshire
accent or we could have used a posh
accent, or we could have used anything.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: A French accent.
But he, but as you say, it's, these
things are becoming harder and harder
because now I think our reaction
might be, oh, am I allowed to do that?
You know, is, is that safe?
Will I get in trouble if I do that?
You know, and then so
maybe I won't do that.
And then suddenly that
opportunity is lost.
It, it's interesting how there's
now an assumption that any sort
of stereotyping is negative.
When, of course our entire society's
always stereotyping constantly
because how can we not, because
we, we have to generalize, right?
Not everything can be specific.
That's what advertising,
it's always disrespectful.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: But if you, in the media,
that's how you advertise, isn't it?
You have to stereotype to
get your, to better do sales.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one has
to stereotype, even to the point of
saying, for example, let's say I say
Troy is a rider, he's a horse guy.
Well, that's a stereotype.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You might say
to me, well, no, Rupert, that's
a lot more to me than that.
Troy Shaw: Mm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: I'd say, well, I'm sure
there is, but I also know that you spend
a big chunk of your day riding horses.
So therefore I'm gonna
say that you're a rider.
But that's meaning, no disrespect to you.
That's just sort of acknowledging
that that is your predominant culture.
Right?
I mean, surely that's all right.
Troy Shaw: But, and I think, I think
it'll eventually come full circle
because I think people will realize
that we're actually making life so hard
for ourselves by being overly critical.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You know, and, and in fact,
the most critical people out there that
are yourself, you, you tend to second
guess yourself a little bit too much.
And then once you start
second guessing yourself
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's true.
You
Troy Shaw: then start going,
well, I better not do that.
Yeah.
Or I better not say that.
Or, and then, then you start to go
down the reading from text and you
lose that, the ability to connect
through feeling and, you know, nature
and doing everything through I know.
Sincerity, I suppose.
Yeah.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: authenticity.
Troy Shaw: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: No, I so agree.
I so agree.
And nature, nature doesn't care.
No horses don, human ideas.
Like no, what's appropriate
Nature just is, right?
Yeah,
Troy Shaw: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
And we, and we have to prepare people
for quote unquote, the real world.
So if they don't encounter humor,
silliness, piss state irony.
Troy Shaw: I, I think it's the scary
thing is the, the real world is
horrendous for some of these students.
Yeah.
Especially some of ours.
You know what the, the things
they are exposed to the.
Especially through things like
social media now where they're
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Almost like not well, I suppose
they are bullied through social media.
They're, you know, put pressure on
through having this, having that and
not having this, not having that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: It's, it's so difficult
to know, you know, how they cope.
No, I,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I agree.
And I think, I think what you're putting
your, I I'm just thinking, I was, I was
in Michigan last week and I was with
the child of a dear friend of mine, and
I've noticed in, in this generation, of
course, that's us, a couple of old blokes
that go, well, when I was, I, yeah.
My day.
Yeah.
You, you had it ea you got
it easy when I lived it up.
Chew box at reservoir.
But the, the truth is, I do think there
has been an erosion of resilience.
And by trying to make things for good
intentions, you know, wrapped in bubble
wrap while at the same time the world
just gets more and more savage out
there in weird ways because social
media goes right to your brain, right?
Yeah.
It's not like it's just something
over there with a, a physical bully
that maybe you can avoid or ignore.
Yeah.
It's gonna invade your life
in a really insidious way.
And I do think that the current.
Young adult generation is proportionally
less resilient than the generations
that have gone before them.
And your job, you know, particularly
with the silliness and the perspective
that that brings, you know what you're
saying, I think is learn to be resilient.
Right.
That that is resilience
training in a weird way.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And also learn to laugh and, you know,
it is okay to laugh and it's okay to
have fun and, you know, and smile.
Right.
'cause
Rupert Isaacson: that
is resilience, right?
Yeah.
You can go through a shit
situation and laugh about it.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And, and you know, you go back to
the going out on trail rides, one of
the things which we really get the
students to do is when a car goes
past and they slow down, it's put
that big smile on your face and wave.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
' Troy Shaw: cause then you've
got a different outlook
on the world, haven't you?
You know, once somebody smiles and
you know, it, it tells you a little
bit more about them than it does when
they just give you that sort of like
death dead everyone's got nowadays.
Yes.
You know?
So smiling and waving and being grateful.
Actually it teaches him so much.
Just from gratitude.
Hack out.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, absolutely.
Gratitude.
Gratitude.
And yeah.
Kiss your horse.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Love your horse.
Make much of your horse.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Thank your horse.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's such a, it's like a
prime evil thing, isn't it?
But we sort of lose it a little
bit because we get stuck in it.
We are in a very technology
driven world, aren't we?
Instinct has been taken away.
Yeah.
Or at least be, we're not allowed to
use instinct or act on instinct as much.
Now we have to, we have to always
like, go through procedures and
policies and all those, and then
by the time you've gone it, you've
lost, you've lost the situation.
You've lost in a moment.
And if you don't act on it at the time
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You sort of like, you know,
you've just missed out a little bit.
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
I, I hope you're right about it, coming
full circle, because I, I feel that
there's a kind of a being a tyranny Yeah.
In the last decade or so where it,
it is reached a point of Well, I
think we're starting to see the
casualties of that in a younger
generation that is not as resilient.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And like you say,
if you can't laugh, if you can't be
grateful, if you can't, then again Yeah.
You just don't have the
resilience bad situations.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And, and again, it
comes back down to that, that play,
Rupert Isaacson: play and,
Troy Shaw: and not just playing
with Lego, it's the physical
movement play the imagination games.
Yeah.
The ones where they set their own
boundaries and rules and, you know,
you'll go out and you'll get a group of
friends together and you'll, you use your
imagination to create a will, which you
are immersed in for however long you're
allowed out to play, you know, I think.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than diving into a
computer game where it's all done for you.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Then you become a character and
Rupert Isaacson: you
don't create anything.
Yeah.
No,
Troy Shaw: and there's no, sounds
quite harsh, but in a computer game,
there's no reality when you fall over.
You don't learn anything from it.
When you're out with your friends and
you fall over, you graze your knee
and you've got like a battle scar and
you've got like a bit of a cut and
it hurts and you remember then that
actions' do that, that's gonna hurt.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: I won't do that next time.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And you build, or what is
a more skillful way Yeah.
To jump over that thing or whatever.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So you build resilience
and you then you'll start to build
more ability to change things.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
Skills and
Troy Shaw: learn and stuff.
And, and it's, you know, it's, it's not
rocket science, but it feels like it
is sometimes that it's been moved away.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it used to be.
It used to be, I think that
imagination was built in
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because most of
us did not have access, immediate
access to the stuff we wanted.
Right, right.
So we had to imagine it.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And maybe if we
imagined it enough, we might eventually
manifest it, but that wouldn't prevent
us from having fun along the way.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting,
I'm thinking back to a, a, a little
girl that who was from South Korea
that used to come to us in Germany,
she would, you know, her parents were
expats and she was in love with horses.
So she would come and
ride with us and she was.
Having to move back to, to Korea.
And she knew she was gonna go back
to the city and the horses were
not gonna be really available.
And she was grief stricken about this.
She was only eight years old.
And I was think, how do I help her?
What do I do?
You know, this is, this is hurting.
I can see how much is this hurting her?
And so we went through these exercises
when we were, I would just take a
trail riding in the forest and we would
do imagination exercises where like,
okay, you are in your room, in your
apartment in Seoul, and I want you
to be able to project yourself from
that to this trail riding this forest.
So what are all the, what's going on?
Like what are the smells?
Troy Shaw: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: what
are the different greens?
What are the rhythm of the footfall
of the horse underneath you?
Like when you touch the horse, is the coat
a bit dusty or is the coat quite slip?
'cause the time of year, is there mud?
You know, what birds are there?
What, what noises are there?
And it, it really made me focus on this
and try to think about this because
I knew she was gonna go back to a
situation where resilience would be
required and suffering would be intense.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How can I.
Project into the future, something
with this horse experience now.
And I think what you're doing with
all that play and all that dress
up and the key is imagination.
What you're saying is you can
imagine a different reality.
You can imagine your own reality.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What reality
do you want to imagine?
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And it is a, a case of just going
with the flow a little bit as well
and just seeing where it takes you.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: And not being as the person
who's sort of leading the the session.
It is not being fearful, I suppose.
And just sort of going with it and
just letting it grow and not being,
if it changes, it changes and you
just go in a different direction.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Not being attached to any one outcome.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And using what you've got.
'cause you still might have, you still
might have a like most things, you've
got a, today you must learn your 10
times table or something like that.
But no one can prescribe
how you get there.
And you've gotta use what's
in front of you at the time.
So whatever you're presented with on
that student or a child on that day,
that's what you've got to work with.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And that might
mean you have to dress up.
That might mean you
have to be really silly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Or it might mean you've gotta
be really quiet and just sit down and,
you know, just sit in a safe space.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.
Troy Shaw: So it is not, but you've
got, you've got, you can't force it.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I think when
you say you have, sometimes you have to
sit down and be quiet in a safe space.
It, it, it's, it's also true, like I
found myself in situations sometimes with.
A student that who wants to do something
that I don't much care for, like really,
really talk about Minecraft, you know?
Yeah.
And I've, I've got to, I've got to,
you know, be able to fake enough
of an interest in Minecraft and
create games around Minecraft, even
though that's a real stretch for me.
Yeah.
Or maybe there's even personality
clashes between you and the student,
but that's not the student's problem.
And so, it's funny, I find one
can use imagination in that way.
An environment like, I, I, I, I had this,
this student a couple of years ago and
it, you know, it's no fault of theirs, but
I would be almost dreading the session.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like,
but that's not their problem.
I, I still need to serve them.
How do I make sure that
I'm in my best place?
So I, I thought, okay, I'm
gonna select my environment.
There's a, a, a, a a stream
down below the stables.
I love being there.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's go there.
And I bet you this person's
gonna get really into it as well.
And at least I'll be able to enjoy
that and daydream there a little bit.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then maybe together.
We'll, you know,
Troy Shaw: that goes back to that
human environment again, doesn't it?
So it does.
If you are human, how you are feeling,
or at least how you help yourself feel
in the right way is manageable, then
you can get so much more out of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it is.
Troy Shaw: Yes, it is.
Rupert Isaacson: And and, and it
allows you to access your empathy.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
I'm thinking about, we, we used to
have a student a few years ago who had
been everywhere across the country,
you know, in different places where
he, he profoundly deaf, couldn't
hear anything, had a, had her own
interpreter all the time, even when it
came to us, had to have an interpreter.
But he'd been across the country
and, and it turns out that the only
reason he was acting how he was, is
because nobody had listened to him.
Right.
'cause his his way of communicating,
he obviously couldn't talk
because he couldn't hear himself.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: That he was conscious about
his, his predicament and stuff like that.
Right.
And, but at the same time,
he wanted people to listen.
Mm-hmm.
But nobody would listen.
They'd just, you know, basically shuffling
around here, there and everywhere.
And he came to us and he was probably one
of my the best students I've worked with.
Really, really challenging.
'cause he had to have an interpreter.
But we use the interpreter for
our own advantage to create fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: So, for example, when we
used to have, 'cause you have to have
regular catchups with the authorities
and the, the, the, you know, the,
the people that are the experts.
And he taught me swear
words in sign language.
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.
Troy Shaw: So we'd both sit there in
these meetings and we'd be doing these
really, really naughty sign languages to
each other, just to make, because he, he,
he, he found these meetings really hard
work because he f he knows all about him.
He didn't know what to say.
He knew no one was listening.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: We'd sit there and
we'd sort of team up so the
meeting would go really quick.
And I think I've share this one story.
We because he had an
interpreter, we drummed up the
idea of going to Rotten Water
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And doing rotten water being a big
lake in your area, big Lake Lester
Troy Shaw: year, which then it is
it got a lot of outdoor pursuits.
Pursuits and stuff like that.
And we decided to go standup kayaking.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: Which it was, I still
picturing now there's the three of
us on each, on individual boards.
And we'd got this, he, we
got stay, he's a big guy.
We got him to stand up on the board
and you know, it was really funny.
Will falling in.
But of course the poor interpreters have
gotta stand on the board and try and
interpret while we are having this laugh.
Oh, that's brilliant.
It was just hilarious.
'cause he was just, he was, I know
uncontrollable laughter because he knew
what was going on and, you know, and
he was at his comfort zone 'cause he
didn't like water, but he was in the
middle of getting the water on a board.
And it was just, it was
just so, so brilliant.
And he changed so much and
grew confident and, you know.
Rupert Isaacson: I love the
fact too that you will do things
that are outside of the equine.
You know, this is one of the hardest
things I, I find in trainings that I do
is to say, look, in our job, you've got to
be obsessive about your horse training and
preparation and willing to abandon that
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In like 10 seconds
if that's not where the person's
at and go do something else.
And of course, horse people
are so horse focused and narrow
minded that way often that they
can't think outside of the horse.
And you know, earlier in this conversation
when you were saying, you know, Lorraine
was coming back in those early days
saying, oh, I've been building these,
you know, goat houses out of bricks.
You know.
Yeah.
Some person, someone might say, well
that's not equine assisted work.
You know, but it's nature in the mind.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And equine stuff is
only one aspect of nature in the mind.
Right.
How do you, when you are training
up your teams get them, because
most of 'em are probably coming
'cause they're pretty horsey.
How do, yeah.
How do you get them to think
with that type of flexibility
to think beyond the horse?
Troy Shaw: It's quite interesting
that, 'cause a lot of our people
that come aren't horsey at all.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: We're actually at the
moment struggling to get horsey people.
Oh, is it more the
Rupert Isaacson: other way around?
Troy Shaw: It's, it's a bit of both.
So we went through and
it, and it, it is right.
We get, when you get the horsey people
come in, they're very much, right.
I've done dressage and this is the
way you do it and you know, let's get
the horses winched in and you know,
they've gotta be an outline and it,
and that they, they tend to be one
of the hardest people to work with.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
' Troy Shaw: cause they are very
structured in their approach and they,
they tend to be less open to being
silly and, and that kind of thing.
So I'd say probably 60% of
our staff aren't horsy at all.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: But they get the concept
of the importance of movement
and the importance of play.
And when we do, we have to
do regular training because
that's what you have to do.
Yeah.
But the training has to, but
we don't just do training for
the sake of doing training.
We'll do training because
it actually adds value.
So we recently did, we went
back through the the science
behind the horse boy method.
Rupert Isaacson: So you just scratching
my, that little ghost in the background
is, is my youngest son courier.
Hello?
Hello.
Sorry.
So the science behind
the horse boy method.
Go on.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
So we, we, we drew out the horse,
the model, you know, for the, the
sous and all that sort of stuff.
And
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: And we, we
got people to act it out.
So everybody had a part, someone
was a neuro in, they were firing
up to the head and by the end of
it they were just like in stitches.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Then we used that point there
to then go away and they had to create
an activity to deliver to students to,
and like I gave them all an envelope.
Here's an envelope, you've gotta
do this, you've gotta do that.
But you had to use only the stuff
that's in the men to do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: So you had to
be really creative with it.
So we try and do the training to make
it as creative as possible unless,
you know, sat down talking to Right.
Rupert Isaacson: So that people
can make that jump in the moment.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Of Oh, I see the
ki I thought we were gonna do this,
but actually we have to do this.
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or I'm gonna use this
to do the same thing.
So, you know, I might be doing, go
back to my maths, you might use some
sticks you found in the woods to work
out percentages or something like that.
So Yes, yes.
It's just thinking on the feet.
But at the same time as while
they're doing it, they've gotta
be immersed in themselves.
They've gotta almost like
see that kind of end goal.
Mm-hmm.
But have so much fun getting there.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: That they forget
they're doing it as well.
So if you can get your staff or
your team to do their sessions and
they've had such a good day that
they've forgotten they've done it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Because it's been
so, you know, if you look at
your watch going, oh bloody, oh,
I've got another hour left now.
Oh, I still another hour.
That's never gonna work.
Rupert Isaacson: No,
Troy Shaw: it's almost the opposite.
Oh, I've only got an hour left now.
Oh crap, I gonna get this done.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So,
Troy Shaw: and that's what we try
and get the whole team doing and
our team are really, really good at.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you've
made a massive success of it.
You've got now two locations
and a third one coming up.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us a bit, because
we, we we're sort of approaching the,
the two hour mark and we should probably
wrap up and people I think will want
to know whether can check you out and
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: How they check you out.
Can you just talk us through what your
locations are, what they do, and then
also tell us how do people find you?
How do people contact you?
Whether it's as a client, if they're
in the east of England or whether they
want to actually come work for you.
Yeah.
Because Troy's always hiring guys.
Yeah.
Give us the logistics.
Troy Shaw: So we're, we're based in
Leicestershire in a small village called
Goby Marwood that's never heard of.
People tend to drive past it 'cause they
say there's no one road in, one road out.
We have the normal Facebook
page, so new triangle dot co uk.
All the contact details were on
there, so if anyone wants to get in
contact, they can send us an email.
They can give us a phone if,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
New Leaf trying.
So New leaf NewLeaf triangle.co
uk.
Co uk not.org
because you're not a charity, right?
Troy Shaw: No.
Dot org is our email
address, not our Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we're not
Troy Shaw: a charity.
Rupert Isaacson: And quickly, why
did you decide not to be a charity?
Why did you decide to
be a regular business?
Troy Shaw: So the, the, the
challenge of being a charity
is you have to have a board.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: That then the board at any
stage could say, well actually I'm
not happy with the way this is going.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: And they could say, kick
you off, we're gonna kick us off.
Yeah.
Which be quite embarrassing
when we started it.
So, you know, I mean, well I've
Rupert Isaacson: known it's
happened to a few friends of mine.
Yeah.
You get these palace cos
that happened in charity.
Troy Shaw: No, we just don't want to go
down, didn't wanna go down that avenue.
So we didn't start that way.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But when you were fundraising
initially, was that not then
difficult if you went to charity?
Troy Shaw: When we first, when we
did, we initially started here at CIC.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: So that gave us a bit of
a, an ability to do some fundraising.
Just
Rupert Isaacson: again, not
everyone's at British here.
So what's the
Troy Shaw: C-I-C-C-I-C is a, basically
a community interest company, which
is designed to benefit everybody
in the local area or people in
the local area to where you are.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, it's a
for profit, but you can raise money.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's not
Troy Shaw: profit.
We do.
You've, you've obviously raised
enough money to pay your wages and
to operate, but it does mean you
could potentially go out and do
some fundraising and get some Right.
So it's
Rupert Isaacson: almost like a hybrid
between regular company and charity.
Okay.
And then talk us about the
locations that you've got.
I know you're in Goby, Marwood, the
Village that No, no one's ever heard of.
Yeah.
But why do you have three locations?
What do these three locations do?
Troy Shaw: So our main site,
which is our smallest site, is
only about two and a half acres.
And it's got a menage in there stables.
We have access to the woods behind.
So it gives us quite a big environment.
And we also, we've just actually just
built a whole new classroom set there.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Troy Shaw: The old buildings, were
starting to look a little bit run down.
We self-funded as well.
We built this massive three room
classroom with an office on the end as
well, to give our operations manager
a quiet space to go and work in.
Okay.
And we, on that site, we have pigs,
goats, Guinea pigs, rabbits chickens,
or that it's like a little farm yard.
Really?
Okay.
And that's our pri primary site,
Rupert Isaacson: but also
the horses there as well.
Troy Shaw: Some horses there.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Most
Troy Shaw: horses there tend to be used
more for the pleasure side of things,
and for the experience for the, you
know, we might go and paint them or we
might bring them out and just groom them.
Some people might ride them.
Then there's site two, which
is about five minutes walk down
the road two minutes in a car.
And that's predominantly our horse side,
so that's where we have more acreage.
The menage is used more for traditional
riding lessons to get people through
their, either sitting in guilds
course or a open awards course.
So it's much more structured
in the way the outcomes are.
So the students will go there, they,
they tend to be a little bit older and
they tend to be looking towards getting
some kind of vocational qualifications.
Okay.
So they don't, don't leave
education with nothing.
Rupert Isaacson: And
then your third location?
My third
Troy Shaw: site is over, it's about 10
miles away from where we are now, and
that's where we have the most space.
We've got about 50 acres there.
Okay.
It's all hill and we, our, our sort
of ambition there is to make it
more of a conservation kind of area.
So we've got, we've planted a wood
Rupert Isaacson: to rewild it a bit.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
A couple of years ago we
planted a wood, which when woods
never grow quickly, do they?
It's like, no, please grow.
It's not growing quick enough.
And so we want to try and introduce
lots of different species and
that kind of thing over there.
But it's taken, it's taken
a long time to get it done.
We've put a, a small barn there for
the horses to go in, in the winter.
Right.
And all of our old retirees go over
there and live their lives out there.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, and then so you would, you would
serve different types of clients at
di at these three different locations?
Yeah.
So, or, or
Troy Shaw: Yeah, maybe, but sometimes
actually we might say to some of the
students who are working at site one
that we're gonna go to Dolby today.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: To go and do some care
for the older horses, you know?
Right.
It's always, it builds
that kind of empathy.
So you're gonna go care for
the horses who have retired.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: They're gonna take that as a
life skill to go and care for other people
that have, you know, oh, we're gonna need
to look after people that have retired
and not just shove them off and stuff.
They they start to build an
understanding of the world
through doing things for others.
Although the others are horses, it
still gives them that inroad into it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I love the fact that you, you do these
different environments when you know, when
we were working, particularly in Germany
Troy Shaw: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I would often
not meet clients at our location.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I would say this
person really needs more forest time.
And I'd say, meet me in this car park,
you know, by the forest over there.
And I would ride the horse over
there and we're gonna do all
our stuff in that forest today.
And then you guys drive home.
I'll ride my horse home.
I love the fact that, and then
nature would be involved in that
'cause it never to be wildlife.
You'd be into trees, you'd be into, you
know, plants and, and rocks and water.
And I love the fact that you're
bringing that side of things
over into your third site.
Yeah.
You know?
Are you, what are your plans for
bringing that wilderness nature?
Yeah.
What's your vision for that?
Troy Shaw: So the next step there has
been some drive space, some indoor
space and some, you know, basic
AM amenities to make it so that,
'cause at the moment the students
will go there, they go for a visit.
And it's like almost like a rush.
They've gotta then get back.
So what we're trying to do over
the next couple of years is make
it so they can go and stay there.
Okay.
And potentially they'll
start from there as well.
So we're putting a base staff there.
At the moment, the staff
aren't based there.
They drive there with the students.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Troy Shaw: So we'll end up with it
being a base where staff will go and
start their day and end their day.
So it may see a little
bit more of a And are you
Rupert Isaacson: doing nature education
there that's sort of beyond horses?
Are you doing, you know, trees,
woodland management, that sort of thing?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
'cause we, we had a group of
students go over there and
they helped us plant the trees.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Troy Shaw: So they actually start to dig
the holes and they try and get the lines
and levels and all that kind of stuff.
And they get the driver
tractor, but don't tell anybody.
Yeah.
So they, they get involved in all sorts
of stuff like that, which is helps with
their skills, you know, and I, I, I
had a dig of the day and they helped
me help with digger a little bit.
So
Rupert Isaacson: it's what I'm, what I'm
hoping that listeners and viewers get
from this is that you should diversify.
You need to, that you should use the
imagination, whether it's for dress up
and silly, or whether it's for, well,
could we not do something beyond horses?
Yeah.
Or could we not have more than one campus?
Or could one of our campuses
be actually all about nature?
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Or,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I,
I, I love this 'cause I, I, this
doesn't necessarily come naturally,
I think to a lot of people.
No.
Troy Shaw: So our, our next sort
of idea for diversifying is to
probably look at how we expand this.
So how we sort of franchise it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And
Troy Shaw: make open to other places.
So we've, we've spent quite a
lot of time building programs and
things into our everyday offering.
So it's how do we rather let
somebody else reinvent this?
Well, how do we actually expand
this into, I dunno, the north of the
country or to Scotland or to, you
know, Cornwall or something like that.
Right.
So people can just lift what we've done.
It sounds that easy.
It still needs to answer
that human environment.
Well, I
Rupert Isaacson: mean, you could argue
that's what Horse Boy has done, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And what we, we, we went through this
sort of question in the early days when it
was pretty clear that it was gonna grow.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And we
thought, do we franchise?
Because then you've got all this
difficulty of controlling a product.
And inevitably that's gonna be beyond your
control, particularly if you're doing it
Troy Shaw: in multiple
Rupert Isaacson: countries.
Or do you just give people a toolbox
and say, with this toolbox, do what
you feel is right for your context.
If you want to put, you know our
name on it, we do require that
you go through an evaluation
process and meet certain criteria.
Yes.
But one of the things I love about Horse
Boy places is I know if I come to New
Leaf, it's going to look different.
To my place.
And that's gonna look different to
Joel Dunlap's place in California.
And that's gonna look different to Kati
and Henrik KO's place in, in Germany.
And it should, yeah, because that way each
place is authentically has its, has its
own energy and charm while making sure
that a certain kind of neuroplasticity
is guaranteed and a certain kind
of horse welfare is guaranteed.
But beyond that, I, I, I want
people to be much more creative.
Yeah.
And I don't wanna stand in
the way of that, you know?
So as you, as you begin to think in those
terms you know, you what, what, what are
your thoughts on how you expand NewLeaf?
Troy Shaw: That's, that's
the challenge, isn't it?
'cause what, 'cause how you've
done horse boy and movement method
and all those sort of things.
It's, I mean, full credit.
'cause you've, you've let it
grow, but you've not, sounds bad.
You've not interfered.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
No, sure.
You've, you've not been on
the phone going, well, I don't
like the way we've done that.
You need to change this 'cause
you're using, you know, and if you're
quoting me, you've gotta do this way.
And I, I'm not saying
Rupert Isaacson: we've never had that
situation, but very, very little.
Yeah.
Troy Shaw: We, we've never
ever had that feeling from, you
know, working with you guys.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
Troy Shaw: So it's always
been a supportive thing.
And that's, that's something that.
I dunno how you, it's
such a hard thing to do.
Well, I'd be really
Rupert Isaacson: talking about support.
I'd be really interested in helping you
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Grow.
Like, you know me, I'm not territorial.
Troy Shaw: No.
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, if
you're doing war sports, if you want
to create a New Leaf program, because
I have absolute faith in what New Leaf
does I'm just honored to be a part of it.
I, I, I, I find those types of
collaborations really fulfilling
because they're so creative.
I'm just, yeah.
So, so when you've envisaged it in
your mind, let's say there were,
you know, a dozen new leaf through
the uk what would be the sort of
underlying denominator
factor that you would want?
There'd be like these three things that
you want to see, or something like that.
What, what, what would they be?
So
Troy Shaw: the primary focus needs
to be on the outcomes for the
individual that come to the place.
Mm-hmm.
So that it's gonna meet what they
are therefore, whether it's through
just getting them on the right
track with their mental health or
whether it's gonna be educational
outcomes, et cetera, et cetera.
So the focus always needs to be on
the outcomes for the individual.
The second one is being
true to that environment.
So working within that environment,
making the environment work for everybody.
And, you know, especially around the human
environment, which would probably be the
hardest thing to lift and put in place.
'cause that's, we've, we've,
we've learned the hard way.
So we have had people that have
been less adapted to what we do,
you know, with the right intentions.
People that tend to be more
of a formal background.
So teachers and stuff like that
tend to struggle a little bit
more 'cause they've been in the
environment where it's small targets.
So we've learned the hard way
on how that human environment
is such a challenge to create.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Troy Shaw: And then I think the third
one is to, I know, just keep it fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: Because, and, and
then as I'm talking about this
franchise and, and stuff like that.
One, one of the things it's almost
like done, if you're not careful
for us, that goes full circle.
What we don't want to do is, again, and
get a Lorraine back in a car going between
little new leaf sites all over the country
doing her, it'd be like a bit of a what?
How did that happen?
Yes.
That's, that's really almost
like a thing to avoid.
Isn't it going?
That doesn't sound like fun.
No.
So, you know, but out there,
there are people that do enjoy
doing that kind of stuff.
So.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I love, I love
the fact that you, okay, so let's say
fun is one of your three denominators.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because we now know Yeah.
Fun is play.
Play is imagination.
Imagination is neuroplasticity.
Neuroplasticity is resilience.
Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
I'd be very, very interested
in, in helping to develop that.
Yeah.
'Cause I think it's, it's needed now more
than ever as society gets more joyless.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well
listen let's look to that future.
And I think particularly those viewers
and listeners who are thinking of
starting a place, worried about
making that leap, those of you who
are in the UK and want some mentorship
or a job, contact Troy once again.
Troy, give us the contact details.
Troy Shaw: So it's,
it's newly of triangle.
Dot co uk is the website.
Rupert Isaacson: New Leaf triangle.
Yeah.
Do co uk
Troy Shaw: UK Yeah.
So that's on there.
And then all the phone
numbers are on there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And they can email.
You're on
Troy Shaw: a sensible conversation.
Talk to Lorraine
Rupert Isaacson: and
Troy Shaw: if you wanna
know, if you wanna dress up
Rupert Isaacson: as a
pirate, talk to Yeah.
Troy Shaw: To be honest, if,
if without her credibility and
without her tenacity and sort of
enthusiasm, you know, we wouldn't
be anywhere near where we are today.
So, all jokes aside, I'm, I'm
allowed to do what I do because
of the work that she's put in.
And just that a hundred
Rupert Isaacson: percent and, and,
and much respect to her, you know?
Yeah.
That, that, that the fact that she
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Met me in that context.
Yeah.
Thought actually this
bloke's making sense.
Yeah.
Even though the other people
in the room were completely
rejecting what I was saying.
Yeah.
And then pulled you down to London that
same night and said, we are doing this.
I mean, the human quality
that that takes to Yeah.
Just sort of say this makes sense.
Gonna go for it.
Not everyone has that courage.
Yeah,
Troy Shaw: no, no.
And that, that, that's why
it's worked so well, I think.
'cause that, you know, I'd, I'd have run
outta steam personally years ago, but
she's just kept us going and pushing and
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Troy Shaw: You know, always in
the right direction, always on
the right side of the legislation.
Always one foot, one step ahead.
And, you know, it's, it's,
it must be exhausting.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what I've
Troy Shaw: gotta do is dress up,
Rupert Isaacson: well, maybe
you stop her from burning up by
dressing up so she can always roll
her eyes or there goes Troy again.
But
Troy Shaw: the amount of times the eyes
get rolled at me, whether it's Lorraine or
Tilly or, or the local village or whoever,
Rupert Isaacson: that's what
we exist for though, isn't it?
We are the people who give
the other people, people the
opportunity to roll their eyes.
Troy Shaw: Yeah, exactly.
It's a service.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Indeed.
Indeed.
For which we should be paid, I think.
Troy Shaw: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Alright, my friend brilliant.
It's been brilliant.
Yeah.
I look forward to the next conversation
about how New Leaf is gonna grow in the uk
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: let's
talk about that next time
Troy Shaw: and, and, and anybody we
can help more than happy to help.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And yeah, if, if, if, if anyone is
in that East Midland sector of the
uk, these guys are doing sterling
work with a all manner of population.
So get in touch with them.
Troy Shaw: Yeah.
Awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Troy Shaw: Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.
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