Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

Those of us who have family skin
in the game you know, everyone

knows my story with my son.

Some of you maybe have listened to
podcasts with the Berko family in Germany

and with Helena Helma and in New York.

And so all of us who are autism parents
or parents of kids with, you know, fairly

extreme special needs have a unique
perspective on this equine assisted thing.

Because we live it, we have no choice.

We're in it beyond the grave.

We have to turn our lives over to it
completely in a way that is perhaps a

little different to someone who wants to
get into it from a purely professional.

Or vocational point of view.

And so for that reason I'm always
very excited when I have parents

and families coming on the show who
have this experience and also have

created a practice, an equine assisted
practice from that experience because

I think we can all absolutely agree
that these people are the mentors.

So I've got a couple of these mentors
with us today from the Netherlands.

And their story with their son Stan,
has informed a whole practice in

a way of life which is now helping
people in the Netherlands and

through this podcast, perhaps beyond.

So without further ado I'm gonna
ask them to introduce themselves

and we'll take it from there.

So, who are you guys?

Monique: I am Monique Teman.

I am the mother of Stan.

And we also have another
son and another daughter.

So, that's me.

Husband: Okay.

I'm Ian.

I'm the father of Stan and our
other son, GU and our daughter.

And no, Stan is already now 20 years old.

Almost,

Rupert Isaacson: almost,

Husband: almost,

Rupert Isaacson: sorry.

Yes.

Almost 20.

Okay.

And you guys run an equine assisted
practice, Monique, I know you

are the main driver of this.

Yes.

Can you tell us a little bit
about what you do, and then we're

gonna go to your story with Stan
and how it's led to what you do.

So tell us about your practice.

Monique: Yes.

I have a practice where I do session
with people all kind of things.

And that's where I have the,
the, the beautiful colleague

of ever, and that's my horses.

Horses tell you everything you can lie to
them and they will put a mirror on you,

but they also can put your system on.

And then, I mean, a system who
can relaxing you, who makes you

zen, who puts on the nervous far.

We call about it.

And that's, that's when
it's going to happen.

And especially people with autism who
always are standing on, we, we call it

they're always beware of what is going
to happen, what was see, so all the,

the how do you call it in, in English?

The, the, the centering.

They, they will, they will put it in
and they, they don't know a way to put

it out and to, to getting regulated.

So, when I have someone with
autism and he's standing by

the horse, it's already there.

The horse takes the,
the, the extension away.

It's, it's, it's beautiful to see.

And the moment it's, it's happened
that's, the kids are, are the

people who is, who are standing
there, there, they, they, they have

right away another way of standing.

They are going to relax.

They feel their body, they are going
out of the brain into the body.

And that's, that's a beautiful thing.

So that's what I do.

And also take the old family
and holistic look at the family.

What is, what is happening with you?

What's happening with the parents
when you have a kid with autism?

What is happening with the other kids?

How do, how do they go with that?

They have a lot to, to, to, to learn about
yeah, their brother or sister and things

they don't want to learn because they
also have their, their their own space.

They need their own space.

So there's a lot to learn.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you have the other
family members come for the sessions with

you as well as just the autistic client?

Monique: Yes.

Yes I have.

And then when you have the old
system, so the old family, you can

see what is happening and where the
extensions begins and, and what is

happening, what is happening with
dad, and what is happening with mom.

Mm-hmm.

And what is happening with the little
sister, and why is she afraid, and

why are we going to scream at each
other or what we don't understand?

And the important thing, I think, is
to look at your child with autism.

What is he telling you without words?

Look at him, look at his
eyes, look at his skin.

That are kind of things.

Look at his, his, his fingers.

How is he putting his fingers on?

That, that tells you a lot of information.

You can deal with it.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm intrigued
when you say look at his skin.

Yes.

What do you mean by that?

Monique: When the extension is going too
high, they, they are how do you call it?

Spear ness tension.

The, the muscle extension,
the muscle tension.

You can see it.

There are

Husband: he's making fist.

He is

Monique: making fist.

He is he he is

Husband: looking for pressure.

He's look,

Monique: yeah.

Yeah.

Things like that.

He is, he is.

Sometimes they put also their
hands behind their back to, to, to

look for the how do you call it?

The, the, the, the vegetarian
line, I call it, right?

Rupert Isaacson: The, like the pressure
on the kidneys and the adrenal glands.

Monique: I think, yes, yes.

And to feel where, where am I standing?

Where, where are my feet?

Where are my feet?

Because they need to regular.

And when they are standing to try to
ground on the feets, they are getting

more space in the brain so that can bring
them back into where they really are.

Rupert Isaacson: This is interesting.

You know, I absolutely agree with you.

I, obviously with Horse Boy, we try
to involve as many family members

as we can, partly because for the
reasons that you just outlined, but

also frankly, for selfish reasons.

I will learn more about your child if
the brother and the sister are there,

because I don't know your kid, you know?

No.

And your kid doesn't trust me.

He doesn't know me and the brother and
the sister, they know each other better

even than the parents know the child.

So often, the brother or the sister will
say to me, oh, when he makes that noise,

it means this, or, yes, when, you know,
don't do this, but make sure you do this.

This is really good information
and I, I won't get it unless

I have some expert there.

So I also realize that I need
to make my place attractive

to the brother and the sister.

Maybe they don't like horses,
maybe they like football.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe they like martial arts.

Maybe they do like courses.

So I have to think about
how do I design the session?

We call them play dates, you know?

Yeah.

How do I design the play
date for those children?

And then of course the mother
and the father can relax a little

bit because suddenly they see,
oh, all of my children's needs

are being met in this place.

Yeah.

And then perhaps the brother who
likes football, and I call my friend

who's a professional soccer coach
and say, Hey, I need you on this one.

And suddenly he's getting
amazing soccer coaching.

Yeah.

Because of his brother's autism.

Yeah.

And this changes the dynamic a little
bit, or maybe the sister she's getting

riding lessons on really good horses.

You know, our horses are trained through
the Grand Prix, some of them in dressage.

So we can give her these
incredible experiences because

of her brother's autism.

And it changes the dynamic, you know?

I so agree.

And I, I'm always trying to encourage.

Practitioners to do this, but of course it
can make life more difficult and sometimes

you get parents who are not so helpful.

I know, and I'm sure you know this and
then you have to work with that, but

I, but I find that whether they are
helpful or not, it's still optimal.

Yeah.

If they're all there in terms of the
change that we can affect, it's, you know,

I'm very encouraged to hear you say this.

I'm also interested in what you
said about skin because we noticed

very early with Rowan, with my son.

Mm-hmm.

And then with other children, we
saw there was a pattern that right

before the meltdown, before the
tantrum, before the negative thing,

they would often go very pale.

Yeah.

The color would go pale and you
would see two little dark spots.

Under the eyes.

And eventually we realized
this was lack of protein.

This was a blood sugar crash.

Monique: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And that if we could
get a little bit of protein into

them, it was a little bit like putting
gasoline back in the brain drink.

Yeah.

And now we got to the point where we
will always tell the parent or the

caregiver who's bringing the child, make
sure that they, and you have had protein

30 minutes before you come, because
cognitively it will make a difference.

And it was the skin color change.

That first alerted us to this,
and now I see it in everybody.

Yeah.

Including myself.

Like there are sometimes when I'm
like, yeah, and I look at myself

in the mirror, like, oh shit, I

Monique: something, where is it?

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So you have a practice, it's called ini.

Yes.

So that's incomp compassion.

Monique: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Why this word?

Why compassion?

Monique: Why compassion?

I'll tell you when I started
to on my, on my practice, I,

I didn't have know name yet.

And I have searched and searched
and in Latin and in English and,

and French and, and all kind of
languages came through my mind.

But no, no, no.

It wasn't, it wasn't until,
until, I have to go myself to

the hospital with emergency.

And after three days I became home and I
was lying on the couch and suddenly the

name came up in compassion because it
was time to look at myself in compassion.

It was time.

We have given a lot as, as
parents, and it doesn't mind.

I do it right away, but I don't have
to tell you what it's meant to have

a child with autism, what it costs on
the energy and so, and that was the

moment I thought, yeah, in compassion.

So that's how I became to this name.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So let's dial back now.

Yeah.

Monique: Speaking

Rupert Isaacson: of the
experience as a parent,

Monique: yes.

Rupert Isaacson: I want both
of you to speak on this now.

Tell me about your journey with Stan.

Let's start at the beginning.

Husband: Okay.

Well, when when Stan was born,
it was how do you say it?

A quick delivery.

When you say quick conflict,
the labor went very fast.

In, in one hour.

Every the sun was there.

Okay.

I mean, and well, we were very happy of
course, because it was our second son

and right away Monique said directly,
there's something special about Sam.

As a parent your child always
is special, but now she said

it in a, in a different way.

There's something special about Stan.

The first two years we didn't notice
anything different, but after a few

years we noticed that he didn't develop
as as the other children, especially

with with spoken words, et cetera.

And there were several times when
there were loud noises or, or other

things or images, something like that.

He put his, he covered his
ears because yeah, he, he, he

couldn't yeah, reflect him.

He didn't know what to do with it.

Then we went to the doctor and the
doctor said we, perhaps he is deaf.

There's something wrong with his ears.

So, we went over there, they didn't
see anything special and but, but he

still covered his ears and yeah, he did,
still didn't develop as the other kids.

So after that we went to another doctor.

He did a lot of tests after that because
they suspect that there was something

wrong in, in they suspect the autism.

They suspected autism.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And from there on okay, yeah, of course.

Okay.

First we were very.

Monique: Upset.

Husband: Upset.

Yeah.

Monique: Otherwise, we
already knew something.

It, it wasn't not that strange.

She told us no, because
deep inside we knew

Husband: there's something about someone.

It could be autism.

Yeah.

Yes, it could be autism.

Then we yeah, very quick.

We accepted the, the knowledge
that that son had autism.

So from there on we, we just, yeah.

Put our minds, okay, how can we
help son to, to get along with

his life on a, on a pleasant way.

So, we, we had a, a special case manager,
autism, and she learned us by videos

we made of stem, how stem reacted.

In all kinds of, of circumstances and
especially how we could well predict

when STEM was started to screen.

So we can how do you say that?

Monique: Regulate him.

Husband: Yeah.

Monique: Yeah.

Bye by going

Husband: get him back in
his, his comfort zone.

Yes.

In instead of yeah, sensory processing.

S

Rupert Isaacson: So when you
got him to his comfort zone?

Yeah.

Like bed or so?

Husband: No,

Rupert Isaacson: no, no, no.

What's the comfort zone?

Husband: No, no, no, no.

By getting like an, an
example out the situation.

Yeah.

Out of the situation.

Okay.

Change the situation.

Yeah,

Monique: yeah, yeah.

SPR

Husband: or jump on a
trampoline or, or squeeZ.

Him squeezing him something.

Something to get into the pressure.

Yeah.

Into his body.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So change the environment.

Deep pressure active movement.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Outside preferably.

Okay.

Yeah.

This was a good, this was a
good therapist that you found?

Yes.

Unusual.

She

Monique: is very good in her job.

Really?

Yeah.

She, she's very good.

She learns.

She, she has learned us a

Rupert Isaacson: lot.

Do, do you still work with this person?

Monique: No.

No.

She after I think about, she
became here three years, I think.

Three years, yeah.

After three years.

And then she really told us.

You are so good as parents,
you don't need me anymore.

Yeah, you can, you can do it your own.

And when she was walking through that
door, you have something No, don't go.

I need you.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

But then

Monique: you are going to do it
on your own and you are, and,

and it's became very well because

Rupert Isaacson: How old was he
during this process this time?

Monique: It was about four years.

He was about four years.

Yeah.

He was, he was a little, a little one.

Really?

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So, so she shows you, the therapist,
shows you some good techniques for Yes.

Yeah.

Sensory processing for changing
the environment, for Yes.

Giving deep pressure, et cetera, movement.

Yes.

What happens next?

What,

Monique: What happens next?

Well,

Husband: when he was
eight, eight years old.

We heard about yeah, very good results of
children who had dolphin therapy in Uraba.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Husband: Yeah.

And we knew the man who was well, the
arranged everything, yeah, arranged

Rupert Isaacson: that, that
kind of journeys to kids.

How did you know this man out of interest?

Monique: He his how do you call it?

His, his

Husband: He went to kindergarten
and there was a teacher.

Okay.

Oh, yes.

You told us about that.

That Ah, yeah.

Yeah.

And so we made contact and then you,
there was they put you on a list.

You had.

It's, it's a, it's a foundation where
you have to do all, all kinds of things

to raise money so you can get with yeah.

With your family.

With your family to dolphin therapy.

And

Rupert Isaacson: they, okay.

Husband: They pay you the,
the, the ticket, eh, to, to fly

over there and and the therapy.

They, they, is

Rupert Isaacson: this, I'm
just looking online now.

Is this the URA Dolphin
Therapy and Research Center?

Yeah.

Husband: Yes, that's it.

Say it c say

Rupert Isaacson: it.

CDTC.

CDTC.

Yeah.

I've pulled it up on my Google.

It looks really interesting.

Okay.

You raise the money, you go.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And what happens?

Monique: What happens?

Well, the first time we went over there,
Stan was screaming in front of the plane.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Monique: Well, my my teeth are rolling.

And but we went over there and it was,
it was amazing what happens over there

because Stan couldn't still talk.

We don't have any, the logic with him,
he, we, we couldn't, we, we didn't know

how it, how it, how, how he was feeling
when, when he was sad or happy or nothing.

Right.

So, over there you have to go
two weeks you are over there.

Yeah.

And you are swimming with the
dolphins five times a week.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And,

Monique: Also the other kids, they
get a special program to put them

also in the lights because Yeah,
they have to do a lot things.

They don't want to because they
have a brother with autism.

So then it is also
especially for them yeah.

And for us it was also an eyeopener
because you see a lot things happen.

You, you don't have the time
before that because you are always

busy to, to have your family
good and, and get it well done.

Everything.

And, and so over there Stan goes to
the ducks and they are squeeze them.

They, they had a lot of send your

Husband: regulation.

Regulation.

Yeah.

Monique: And then they are
going to, practice with him with

letters from the alphabet and they
recognize he was very good while

Rupert Isaacson: he's with the dolphin.

Yes.

Or after he's been with the dolphin?

No, he was

Monique: with the dolphin.

It was on and off.

He was a little time on the dock.

Then they are doing a
practice with him On the

Rupert Isaacson: dock.

Monique: On the dock, yes.

And then it, it was about
a minute or 10, I think.

And then he gave to
swim with the dolphins.

Yeah.

And then he swim for 10 minutes and
then they are doing a practice again.

And that was for an hour.

Rupert Isaacson: So they'd, he'd
swim with the dolphin, then they'd

go onto the dock, work on letters,
work on How would they work on

letters when they were on the dock?

Monique: Ah,

Husband: What they, what they did
was they showed some a letter.

Mm.

They, they pronounced it,
how, how do you call that?

Letter?

And every time when Stu said it
right, the, the dolphin did a trick.

Oh.

So they, they stimulated Stu
to, to say the right word they,

and to pronounce it right.

And he get he got a reward
by a trick from the dolphin.

From Dolphin, dolphin.

The

Rupert Isaacson: reward was
the dolphin did something cool.

Yes, yes.

This is really interesting.

Always.

Husband: It almost looked
like like, like, like Pavlov.

If, if you a lot, eh,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

But that's my kind of Pavlov.

If you're going to, if you're
gonna do that with me, then yeah.

Have a dolphin do something.

Cool.

I will probably be motivated.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

I've got, can I ask a couple
of practical questions?

I'm, I'm.

I'm really intrigued.

So something which I've seen can
be tricky when you are working with

children in the ocean or in water.

Mm-hmm.

Is the sensory issue of putting
on a wetsuit or putting on a

flirtation device or something.

Mm-hmm.

We used to do autism
surf camps in California.

Mm-hmm.

We probably would do it again.

We just got busy with other things and
some kids there was no problem at all.

Other kids, you really, of course,
had to work for some time on

just the wetsuit or something.

So were there any issues like this with
Stan or with other kids that you saw?

And then of course after that
there's the water and then

there's the big animal itself.

So can you just talk to me?

Yeah.

The sensory issues of.

Whatever equipment he had to have
on his body, the sensory issues

of the water, and then the sensory
slash fear of this big dolphin.

Like what was, what was,
how did it progress for him?

Monique: Well, the wetsuit there was a
little thing because it is, yeah, from,

from his, his angle till his shoulder.

It was and but he, he, yeah.

When he knew I'm going into the
water, it seems like it was okay

because I think that's our lock
stand is very good in the water.

Okay.

He's a very good swimmer.

Yeah.

And he's not afraid of dos.

He likes it.

He get a special yeah.

Vest arm I don't know how
you call it, pressure vest.

The pressure vest that keeps him
above the water because otherwise

he had Oh, a flotation Yeah.

Device.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

Monique: yeah, yeah.

But our son, he would, every time
he would like to die with the

dolphins, when the dolphins, yeah.

Going to die, he thought
okay, I'm going with you.

But it couldn't because
he had that crazy, so,

Rupert Isaacson: and this,
how did he react to that?

Monique: It, it it goes very well, but he
was the lucky man because after a day or

10 by getting therapy, his therapist told
us he may go diving with the dolphins.

Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the,

Monique: the thing we said it is
okay, but please dive with him because

he doesn't know anything about.

How deep the dolphin is going or, yeah.

So please, and go with him.

And they have done that,
and it was beautiful.

He was, yeah, he was, he was, yeah.

Ecstatic.

It was, it was beautiful.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: How long did the
sessions with the dolphin last?

About an hour.

Husband: Yeah.

The, the, the whole session was two hours.

Was two hours, yeah.

The first hour they were on the docks
and doing therapy like, like squeezing

and, and he had to make puzzles
at et cetera that kind of stuff.

He didn't like that at the
first at the first three or four

times he was screaming a lot.

But after that he, he well, he
recognized that if he did the, the.

The, the playing and the therapy.

Right.

Is reward again, was swimming with the
dolphins and that he, he, he liked a lot.

And the total session was, was two
hours, five days a week at the same time.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Now you told me when we were
speaking before I hit record you

told me that he became really verbal
during his time with the Dolphins.

Can you describe the before,
during, and after of that process?

Husband: Well, I mentioned already
he, when when things were difficult

for Sam, for Sam to understand because
it, it, it was well, it, it, yeah,

just, it was too difficult for him.

He, he didn't understand what,
what they wanted from him or

what to do or what to see.

Something like that.

He can, could only express his, his,
his feelings by screaming because

he, he didn't talk at all after.

And, and, and my Monique just
mentioned how we went to, into

the plane with a lot of screaming.

And when we went back, he didn't scream
at all because the most important

thing we've learned over there is when
we predict what's going to happen.

For some it, it, it is, it
gives him a lot of rest.

He feels comfortable, comfortable
about knowing what is going to happen.

That's one of the things we've,
we've learned over there.

We also have learned to, to look at
some and go with his with his tempo,

with his way, his rhythm of living.

Yeah.

That, that are the most important
things we, we've learned.

Yes.

Over there.

Monique: Yes.

And, and the, the thing about the, the,
the words he, he, he was learning the,

the, the letters, the words, the we are
people who like to talk and we talk a lot,

but because we think we can, everything
arrange with talking, talking, talking.

But silence is saying much more.

And that was also with Stan when
when we went over there and they saw

he was doing it very well with his
letters and, and that kind of thing.

And we came home school picked it up also.

His teacher said, okay,
that's very nice to hear.

We are going further with that.

We taken that, that kind of therapy.

Further with him so he can learn words
and we call it in Dutch word build.

And so he had word,

Rupert Isaacson: image.

Word?

Word image.

Word picture.

Yeah.

Monique: And, and because he, he
visual, he's, he's very strong.

And that was his way to learn
words and learn the meaning of

the words, because that was also
what makes him uncomfortable.

Because when we are talking,
there are a lot of words.

He doesn't say anything to him.

He, he understand, what
are you talking about?

I hear a lot of noise, but I
don't know what you are telling

me or what are you talking about?

So that, that makes extension a lot,
a lot of more and, and, and, yeah.

So he became to screaming,
et cetera, et cetera.

And when school, yeah.

Take it over from there.

Yeah.

They, they, he makes, he makes, yeah.

Husband: The screaming.

Yeah.

Went away.

Went

Monique: when, after a few, yeah.

Yeah.

It

Husband: stopped.

Totally.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And he, when he came back
from the Dolphins, he was able to talk,

he was able to express his needs and say,

Hungry Mommy, I'm thirsty.

Or was it still in the early stages?

Monique: No, he still doesn't do that.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Monique: He still doesn't do that.

It's never when he came back at home
then he will go for his drink and

his candy, but he will never tell
us from himself what he has done.

Never.

We always have to ask

Rupert Isaacson: him.

Okay.

Monique: Yeah.

He will never.

Rupert Isaacson: When, can you
describe how he is verbal now?

Like how you, how he would talk to you?

Monique: Well, we recognize that his
meaning is, is a lot bigger of words.

So he can in that way
explain what, what you want.

That is, that is going very well.

And that's his progress he made.

Rupert Isaacson: Can
you give me an example?

Husband: Well,

Monique: yeah.

Husband: First of all in the beginning
when we asked him how was school,

it was good and nothing more.

Rupert Isaacson: That
sounds like many kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Husband: It was like, I know.

But when you asked what have
you, what what have you done on

school have you done at school?

He didn't say anything, but now he
he tells us in in, in a few words,

i, I have I have swing, I have
puzzled, I have been with the animals.

So yeah, that kind of of words.

He used to tell us what he
what his day was, what his

day was what his day like was.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And okay.

So you, when he came back from
URA South the first time, 'cause

I know you went two times.

Yes.

What would you say, how was he
speaking after that first trip?

How was he using words?

Monique: Very functional.

Yeah.

Stan is a boy who was very functional.

So he get his, his things he needs

Husband: by drinking,
by, yes, by food, by,

Rupert Isaacson: playing.

So would he say, would he ask for
things or how was he expressing himself?

Yes.

Monique: Well, that
became so about the years.

He, he he's going to
to do that a lot more.

When he don't want anything or he don't
want to tell us anything more, then he,

he, he said to ans to us, no, not anymore.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Monique: So that's, that's
something he has learned.

When I don't want anything
anymore, I have to tell them.

Rupert Isaacson: And
this began after Carissa?

Yes.

Monique: And yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

This is really interesting.

I often when I'm giving people
trainings, I tell them, you must

value negative communication as
highly as positive communication.

Yeah.

Because when you're dealing with somebody
who's nonverbal, if they tell you what

they don't like and what they don't
want, this is massive progress, you know?

Yeah.

Please tell me what else
you don't want to do.

And of course, in normal parenting,
this is regarded as you know, a real

problem when the kids are negative and
they, but of course, from our point

of view, often things happen that way.

First.

No, I don't want, and I suppose in a way
it is the same with neurotypical IE normal

kids, they usually actually start with no.

Yeah.

At two years old, you know, now and then
from, that's the first self-advocacy.

So you saw that after Issa the first time?

Yes.

Yes.

You went back again, how long between the
two, was it the next year, three years?

Three years.

Three years?

Why, why three years?

And tell me what happened
on the second trip.

Monique: Well, he did it very
good at school and you have

also the time to make that, that
money you needed to go out there.

Okay.

So, you are when you went out there,
you going beneath or do you call it?

At last on the, on the,
on the, on the list?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

You

Monique: start all over again to

Rupert Isaacson: get on top.

To

Monique: get on top,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Oh, I see.

There's a list.

Monique: Yes, yes, yes.

There's a list.

And so you have to do things to, to
get your money again, to go over there.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Monique: So, that's why.

And then when when it is already
there and you can go to Cura South,

then also has to be there some place

to go.

So, that's why the three years.

Got it.

Yes.

Yes.

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Okay.

So tell me what happened
on that second trip.

Monique: Well, we had still a
little thing because Stan still

wearing diapers at that age.

At that age

Rupert Isaacson: he would be by then 12.

Yeah, 11.

Yeah, 11.

Monique: Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was our next thing.

We, that

Husband: that was our main goal.

Monique: Goal, yeah.

Yeah.

And well, it, it also went
very well, not directly.

Because when we went over there, they
have done a lot of other things instead

of wearing the di the, the diaper
and, and doing something about that.

It's actually almost the same
when I am working with my horses.

It's, it's in the moment what, what,
what tells the horse what to do.

So, and it was also with the dolphins.

So the second time yeah.

What, what had they do?

They, they, they make him,

Husband: especially, they learn how Yeah.

To, to wait.

Yeah.

And to get the patience about
things he want or or otherwise

things we have to do first.

Before we can help or we can do things
with some That's the, the, the, yeah.

Most important thing.

They have learned him to wait and they
also have, have learned us to because

we always had the focus on some,
but we also have two other children

and they also need our attention.

But when we were doing something
with the other children and we saw

that Stu was asking for us, or, or
he was was was high in his yeah.

In extension.

Yeah, in extension.

Then we sort automatically went to Stu to
help him, and they say that's not, well,

not quite fair to the other children.

So we have learned to say Tostan, no stem.

Monique: Not now what?

Husband: Not now.

You have to wait for a moment,
but after this we come to you.

Yeah.

And that also went with as, as Stum
asked for, can I get some candy?

We said and it also was almost
dinner time, something like that.

Then we said to stone, no stone,
you can't have candy, but you can

get a banana or something like
that, something else instead.

So we learned to, to bend things
that weren't quite right for

stone into group things and Yeah.

Monique: Yeah.

And patience.

And patience.

Yeah.

And he learned quite well.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So, but did the toilet training with the
diapers advance during the second trip?

Monique: No.

Well, no.

That's not quite right.

It became better when we went home.

And after that he only had it by nights.

Yeah.

Okay.

He was wearing a diaper,
so that went very well.

And I think about when he was, I think 13.

Yeah, something like that.

He didn't wear it at all.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Tell me, finish

Monique: with it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm interested
to know what did they do in Issa

to target the toilet training, but

Monique: actually nothing because
they have other targets with him.

Rupert Isaacson: So why do
you think it changed to only

nights after that second trip?

Monique: Well, we think that because he
became to learn better how, how his, how

his body was working and how his tension.

He could regular it on better
ways he gets space in his mind.

And so he get also a signal
I have to go to the bathroom.

Yeah.

And that was and that, that was
also what we have learned from, from

Charles with, with with autism that
they don't get a single right away.

And and that was with, with Stan, he
he get a sign, I, I have to sign on

the, on the single, and I, I, I have,
I have to go to the bathroom and yeah.

From, from from, yeah.

The, the, yeah.

Well,

Husband: the, the most important
lesson we've learned, and that's

with a lot of things with Stu.

Stu does things when he is ready, ready

Monique: for it.

Yeah.

Husband: You can't push things.

To, to get it, to get it done.

Because if he isn't ready in his mind
and in his body you don't get resolved.

So you have to recognize when he's
ready to, to learn something, to

accept something, to do something,

Rupert Isaacson: you know,

listening to the story.

I can also imagine some things
happening in his brain during this time

with the dolphins because you going
somewhere very new, very different.

I very be surprising in a good way.

Yeah.

Magical, you know, this time with
dolphins and of course what happens

and a lot of movement involved and
a lot of natural sensory stuff.

You're in water, you're with the
big animal, you are, you've got the,

sensory, comfort of the deep pressure
of the person in the water with you.

All of these things.

And with this comes a
neurological reaction.

Yeah, accelerated, which we would
call neuroplasticity, but specifically

the production of a protein in
the brain, which happens whenever

you do something new basically.

Particularly if it's physical moving
and problem solving effectively.

And that's a protein with a, its
name is four letters, BDNF, brain

derived neurotrophic factor.

When you do something with what
one calls novel movement, let's

say you sit on a horse, let's
say you're going in the water.

Let's say you run across.

A field.

Yeah.

It's very different running across
a field to running on a playground

because on the playground you
don't need to think too much.

Where do my feet go?

On the field, you must think
because if you put your foot in the

wrong place, you fall over because
there's a little hole or something.

So your mind has to be more active.

You go with the dolphin,
you go with the horse.

This effect is amplified.

And so you get incredible amounts of
neuroplasticity, of brain development

in these types of situation.

And then of course, this could
be very scary, which would shut

down the brain development.

But of course he's there with the family.

He's there with all this love.

He's there.

There's I'm sure all kinds of.

Heart resonance coming from the
dolphin, which has a very big heart

throwing off an electromagnetic field.

Yeah.

Yes, indeed.

It's very big.

And of course the dolphin being this
hyper intelligent com, you know,

social compassionate animal is doing
all kinds of work with him on a level

that we can't even probably see.

You put all this together, I can
see how he could come back from

that experience, able to regulate
his toileting, for example, because

of the, the brain development.

Okay, so we've talked about dolphins
and this is wonderful, and actually I'm

going to have these guys on the show.

I'm going to reach out to them, even
though it's not equine, it's still,

you know, large animals and nature.

Yeah.

We need to talk to these people.

Clearly they will have things that we can
learn from, but let's go to horses now.

So, Monique, you are a horse woman?

Yes.

Were you always a horse woman?

Yes.

Monique: Grew up with

Rupert Isaacson: it.

I'm nearly

Monique: born in the unstable.

Okay, okay.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So since
you were a kid, horses.

Horses, right?

Yes.

And were you having horses,
owning horses while Stan was in

his early years of development?

Yes.

And what was Stan's involvement
or interaction with these horses?

Monique: Yes.

We've always had horses and when we get
this, this house where we are living now

I have my horses standing by our house.

They were first standing with my
parents, but then they moved to us.

Okay.

And yeah.

Stu and animals are just one.

That's okay.

If it is a prock a dog,
a cat, a horse, never.

Mines where animals are there
is stem and with a horse.

We had a pony called Oscar,
and Oscar is a lovely horse.

And what he did, he had a very
big buckets and he put it behind

the top there, you call it.

Yeah.

And he was standing on.

And he was for an hour busy with a
horse to go on the back of the horse.

Rupert Isaacson: So he used
the bucket to climb on top?

Monique: Yes, yes.

But the horse fought then.

Oh no.

Oh no.

Ride it there.

That's, that's, that's better food.

So I'm going to walk over there.

And Stan was then taking the
bucket with him, put it on

the ground again, stand on it.

And so he was for an hour
busy with this horse.

It was lovely to see.

And when he sat on his
back, he was enjoying it.

He was just sitting there, just look
over what, what, what kind of birds

was were, were, were flying in the air.

What he saw, what he was feeling
like what, and he Yeah, he was, he

was really zen when he was with the

Rupert Isaacson: horse.

And how long this, and, sorry.

Okay.

At this point, you are
not running in capacity.

You don't have a practice?

No.

No.

What do you do you doing for a living?

Are you just busy being a mom because you
have three kids and a special needs kid?

Are you Yes.

Trying to do a job.

Monique: Yes.

I had a job.

I had a job.

But when we knew it was a very
busy Trix, we call it, I think.

Yeah.

Therapy with our family, yeah.

It was very stressful.

Also for us.

My husband just became his own office
and our daughter was very little.

And I thought, no, no.

Working by job elsewhere, it's, it's not
gonna bring us that, that we need it.

Yeah.

So, I stopped my job.

I was working also on the
office and I was full-time mom.

I liked it, but most of all,
I think our family became in,

in another, another dimension.

We, we get spaces.

We, we, yeah, there was, there
was, yeah, we, we, it was

Rupert Isaacson: time.

Yeah, time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We

Monique: get another energy in our house.

So, and that was very, very nice.

And I did some other college because I
don't want to sit, just sit being a mom.

I also want to develop so,
I did how do you call it?

Yeah.

Yeah, I did some developing college
skills, champion, develop and, and,

so, and then I thought, yeah, yeah,
but I have horses and I have the

experience of our son, and when I
put it in a big bucket and I'm going

to do something about that, maybe
something beautiful is going to happen.

And so, my practice in Compe came
and I thought there is when I see my

own experience, what my bosses bring
me in times that weren't that nice.

I thought, yeah, yeah, I would
like to give other ones also this.

I, I, I think, I really think with all
the experience I have, we have, we can

learn other parents how you can deal
with a child like Stu who has autism.

There is.

Such a lot to learn in our for
example, temple Grandin, you know,

where it was, it was our inspiration.

And I've put it also in, in our blog
from Ura Sao, what she brings us.

And always she is, she is coming
in my mind when I, when I have it

a little bit difficult for myself,
then I think of Temple Grandin.

When you are throwing the other
door open, then go for it because

there are other things you can see.

And, and yeah, it brings us a lot.

And also in my practice with the horses,
because that's the other door, the,

the, the horses they are just there.

And when you are in the neighborhoods
of horses, it'll just started.

It starts to brings you yeah.

Such, such more, I don't, I don't know.

I, how can I, yeah.

I always, yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: sure.

I mean, you're preaching to the
converted here because we all

Monique: Yeah, yeah.

Everyone

Rupert Isaacson: listening
to this show, we, we know the

value of the horse in Yeah.

Various ways.

And what they bring a question though.

How old was Stan when you started
your income capacity practice?

Monique: Well, I have now my
practice for only three years.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yeah.

So you had to develop
a lot of time for him.

Yes.

So by the time he was sort
of in his late teens Yeah.

Yes.

You, to turn your attention Yes.

To saying, how do I help other families?

Yes.

Got it.

Okay.

So I'd like to talk a little bit
about how you run your practice,

but before that, everyone will
want to know how is Stan doing now?

Where is he at?

You know, and, and just for,
the listeners and viewers,

Stan does not just have autism.

He also does have an inter a
diagnosed intellectual disability

in parallel with the autism.

Yeah.

So, one's expectations and so on must
be to some degree directed by this,

but just so that people understand the
this neurological geography of, of Yes.

So, so, so tell us, you
know, where is Stan now?

What's his life?

What's his day?

What's, yeah.

And then let's get to encompassing.

Monique: Yes.

Well, he is going for now for five days
a week to how do you, how do we call that

earlier special daycare, special daycare.

Yeah, something like that.

Their

Rupert Isaacson: services sort of thing.

Yeah,

Monique: yeah, yeah.

Where he can also go to animals.

Yeah.

And he is a very he's in a, in a
very active group with the other

Husband: yeah, they're working a lot.

Yeah.

Monique: They're,

Husband: they're, they're swinging.

They're, they're, they, they're
constantly busy with him.

You

Rupert Isaacson: told
before in a certain way.

He's in, they're in nature a lot.

What do they do in nature?

Monique: Yes, they are going
riding with car and horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So he's 49

Monique: and then they go into the forest.

Yeah.

He likes that a lot.

He also goes to they have a donkey.

They have chicken they have

Rupert Isaacson: at the daycare.

Is it like a castle?

Is it what you would call a care farm?

Monique: Kind of that, kind
of that, but they also have

a lot of sports they can do.

Okay.

All they light.

Yeah.

So, there are, who goes to the gym?

There are they, they going swimming?

They are, they go for a long walk.

Some they are going to, to do
some shopping in the village.

They also, so they have to go for a walk.

And when he is busy with his buddy.

Buddy, yeah.

Yeah.

Then, then his mind's getting, getting
the opportunity to, to learn to develop.

So that's very beautiful to see.

And

Rupert Isaacson: what is he learning?

Monique: Well, we are we are recognized
that, that he is giving much more meaning

to words and he can explain things better.

And he is happier on his way.

It, it, it doesn't.

Custom.

Yeah.

Husband: And he takes initiative
to, to tell something.

Yeah.

What, what has happened that day?

What he has seen.

He wants to tell us things.

Yeah.

He wants to tell us.

Yeah.

But he

Monique: also we had a couple
of weeks ago it was a holiday

and we should went to the sea.

To the beach.

Yeah.

To the beach.

Yeah.

And the big beach he call it.

And so I told him, okay,
and, and what do we need?

And he begin to talk.

I, I thought, no, no, you can write.

I told him, here, take a pen.

Take a pencil and a paper
and put it on the paper.

And so he did.

And so he began to write it down
what we had to need for that day.

Mm-hmm.

Husband: Yeah.

Wow.

Wonderful.

He made a, he made a list of about
six or seven things he, he went

to get with him to the beach.

Yes.

But

Monique: in a way that he was also happy.

It wasn't, it, it, he was happy to do it.

And that's what we recognize
what he is doing now.

It doesn't, it doesn't take
that much energy of him.

He likes to do it because he can, and
a couple of years ago it, he can't.

Yeah, because, because he couldn't do it.

No, because he, he did, he,

Husband: it always looked like he was
under pressure to do, to do it something.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.

Not spontaneous.

Yeah.

Quite understand.

Husband: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yes.

Wonderful.

Okay.

And he's still obviously
involved in animals in nature.

And then when he's at home with you,
while there's horses around, there's Yes.

Yes.

We have

Monique: two dogs.

We have two cats.

Yeah.

So he's always always into dogs.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell me about
his interaction with the dogs.

Monique: Well, he has one particularly
that's it's, it's a Labrador

and that's really his buddy.

Yeah.

When he's coming home he is taking
some time after the computer.

Then we are going for a eat, and then
he is going to take the dog for a walk.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Monique: And also with the horses
when they are going somewhere,

they are one, they are really
one where the darkest is Stu.

And where Stu is, is the dark and
everyone in the neighborhood knows it.

And yeah, he's doing very well with it.

Husband: Completely on his own.

On his own for about an
hour or an hour and a half.

He's, he's gone with the dogs
in, in nature and then Yes.

And he

Monique: has he gets a GPS on it

Rupert Isaacson: so we know

Monique: Yeah.

A tracker.

So we know where he is.

Rupert Isaacson: And also the dog
always knows the way home, presumably.

Yes,

Monique: yes.

Yeah, yeah.

With ice closed.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I remember when
with my son Ron, when he was first

coming to visit us in Germany.

He loves to be given challenges,
so I would give him challenge.

Okay.

I I'm gonna drop you there in the car.

On the top of that mountain with the dog,
and you are gonna find your way home.

You can GPS it, but the
dog is gonna say it.

None of it.

Yeah.

You, you, you can just, yeah.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

And it really worked.

It, it's, it's very beautiful to see how
each type of animal really does bring

out a different aspect of the human.

And it's, it's something which
I'm often encouraging our equine

practitioners to think beyond the horse.

You know, horses, they're fantastic.

They do all these amazing things, but
don't limit yourself because what if this

person is not so motivated by the horse?

Or maybe they were motivated by the
horse, but for some reason now they

lose that enthusiasm a little bit.

My own son, for example, he's
gone in and out of horses.

Over his life, and sometimes he's really
into the horse and sometimes, ah, it's

not so much, and I must go with this.

Monique: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I need

Rupert Isaacson: more than that.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So as you know, we
work with all kinds of animals and

nature but sometimes horse people can
be a little bit autistic themselves

and it's just very horse, you know.

I am similar, you know, if you leave
me to myself, I'm just horse, horse,

horse, horse, horse, horse, horse.

But I, I realize that
there are some limitations.

No thanks.

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this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

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little bit about the old master system.

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Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Okay, so Stan is doing really well,
and now you are in a, in a position to

give your experience to other families.

Talk us through okay.

Let's say I am an autism
dad and I find my way to.

Your website.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I make contact with you.

I'm new.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell me how it will go.

Monique: Yeah.

Well, first of all, I'm going to invite
you of course, and the first thing I, I

do when I get someone here who is Alre,
where I already knew he is autistic I

look at his body, what is he telling me?

And that's very important because
we have talked it earlier.

The body is telling me everything.

And I quite often see that when I
have a session with a mom or dad

or who are also autistic or the kid
they are going to look for something.

Diarying the sissy to regulate themselves.

So it's about a bracelet
a earing their hair.

They find stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we all stem

Monique: Yes, all of us

Rupert Isaacson: to Yes.

Regulate ourselves.

Yes, yes.

Monique: Especially when it's
going to be difficult, then Yeah.

Then oh, oh, oh my gosh,
I have so regulate because

this, this is very difficult.

This.

Yeah.

And that's what triggers me.

And when I throw it back at
them then I get the answers.

Yeah.

It is difficult.

Yeah.

Emotions are difficult for me.

Yeah.

This is a big part for of me.

So.

That's my comm communication.

And are you always

Rupert Isaacson: asking the
whole family to come, or as

many family members as possible?

Or do you start with just the
kid, or how do you, how do you go?

Monique: Yeah.

Just what they want, because I
always have the respect of them.

What is what you need and
what is it, what you want?

I want to give a lot.

Mm-hmm.

But it also, it I want to know what
do you want and what do you need

and how does it go all the way?

So, sometimes I began with the parents.

They said, said also, well, first us fine.

Fine.

Okay.

So sometimes

Rupert Isaacson: you'll do your first
consultation with just the parents.

Yes.

And sometimes I know that's a good idea.

Monique: Yeah.

Yeah.

And sometimes they told
me well, here we are.

And then therefore they old family.

Okay.

Also good.

So it's really yeah, I, I, I feel it.

Like, what is my intuition
tells me what to do.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So how do your horses enter the picture?

Monique: What do you mean by that?

Rupert Isaacson: How do you, okay, now the
parents have come or the family has come.

You're observing their bodies.

You're, you are finding out what they
need to regulate themselves and so on.

Now you're going to add a horse.

Monique: Yes.

Yes.

How,

Rupert Isaacson: how does this happen?

Monique: Yes.

I'm going to look for the horses.

What he's telling me, is
he standing by the stomach?

Is he breathing out?

Is he walking the horse?

Yes, the horse, that kind of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: So is the horse coming
into a space with the person now?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes,

Monique: yes, yes.

And, I also, when the knees are
there I have also a little boy who

I have put on the pony because he
came from the hospital and he was

sent from a specialist over there.

He had some problem to go to
the bathroom just like our son.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Monique: And that mother calls me
and tells me that, oh, and he can't

go to the, and he has medicine and
I don't want that medicine anymore.

I want to go in for himself
to go to the bathroom.

Can you please help me?

Of course.

Come over here and we gonna have a look.

And that boy became two times
here and he go to the bathroom.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Riding on the back,

Monique: riding on the deck of the
horse and he go to the bathroom.

He

Rupert Isaacson: took a poo on the horse.

Monique: Yeah.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Wonderful.

And that's exactly what we are doing.

And that's also what you are doing
with the kids who on the horse

and your story with, with Rowan.

So I had to think about you
when it, when it happens.

I thought, yeah, this, this kind of story.

And now I have it myself, my own.

So the mother is very glad
about that, but now, okay.

The new school year has became and,
and become, and, and she's calling

me again because the kid has a lot of
tension and new again, he doesn't go

to the toilet, so we have to go again.

It's, it is, yeah.

I don't mind 'cause I know it's
gonna be all right and I know where

it's from that get a lot of tension.

So it will be, be going all
right after a few times.

Rupert Isaacson: So you do
work with people riding as

well as people on the ground?

Yes.

Yes.

How do you decide

how to proceed?

Monique: What the question of the parents
is I only put children on the podium.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Not parents.

Okay.

Monique: No, the parents are
always standing besides the horse.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

So the children, I put them on the
horses and I also learned them.

Other things, also school things.

We have special therapy we call
it different learning by horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

And

Monique: that's for child.

The who, who doesn't come

Husband: come along with, come
along with, yeah, with, with

words and, and mathematics.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Rupert Isaacson: And is that something
you've developed yourself or is that No.

No.

So that program that you use,
that's an outside program?

Monique: Yes, yes.

I've learned that

Rupert Isaacson: learning
with horses, it's called,

Monique: Yes, it's, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: And is that a,
a, a Dutch thing or is that a yes?

Yeah.

Okay.

So tell me how that works.

Monique: Yes, it is.

Well, finally, you are going back
in time how we learned on school.

Mm-hmm.

That's the part they, they don't give
it on that way anymore on school.

So, what

Rupert Isaacson: do you mean?

Monique: What do I mean?

Rupert Isaacson: Learning
through repetition.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Monique: yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And it is, it is the same as
the mother with, with her boy

who doesn't go to the toilet.

Mm-hmm.

Now the horse is the
biggest friend of that child

Rupert Isaacson: who,

Monique: who, who counts read or, or
writes or, or something like that.

And when the horse is
with him, it goes on.

It goes because the, the tension
is gone and there's another, so

Rupert Isaacson: when, when you
are working with the academic stuff

on the horses, the learning with
horses, are you using the horse's

movement as a rhythm to then create
repe repetition of saying things and

giving information into the brain?

Yes.

Sometimes.

Is it working like that?

Monique: Sometimes.

And we also do some, some
how do you call it, to bags?

Yeah.

Bags.

Bags right.

And, and left mm-hmm.

On the child when they are on the horses.

Mm-hmm.

And then we tell them to take something
out of the left, back with the right hand.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

Also crossing the midline,
you want them to Yes.

Yes.

That's also for the BDNF
in the brain, right?

Monique: Exactly.

Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: But when you are
dealing with an academic concept, like

say numbers and you are doing this
on the horse, tell me how it works.

How, how are you doing it?

Monique: We have a couple
of things, how we do it.

Sometimes first we do it when
they take the horse beside them.

So they walk with the horse.

Yeah.

And then just simply from one till
10 or we put how do you call it?

Yeah, many of further mm-hmm.

But, but yeah.

Let's keep it easy.

My English is not that good.

How can I explain it?

The,

Husband: the practice from the
numbers from 0, 10, 20, 30, 45.

Rupert Isaacson: Counting.

Yes.

Yes.

Counting.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you could count steps.

You could count, yes.

Yes.

But okay.

But let's say you want to do arithmetic.

Let's say you want to do division.

How would you do that?

Monique: What do you mean exactly?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, for example, when
I was teaching my son numbers and letters

on the horse, initially what happened was
I would, I followed his interests, right?

So he loved the Lion King.

Mm-hmm.

So I would be singing the Lion King songs.

Don't worry, I'm not going to sing now.

And then I would take the
ca a character like say.

Zu and I would put the letters
of Zazu on these different trees.

Yes, we would ride, but you
know, at least 30 seconds of

riding in between each letter.

Mm-hmm.

So the trees are at a distance.

We can also learn what
is this tree, et cetera.

And then at the end there'd be a
little toy of azi and he learned

to put the letters together.

And then from there, very
quickly it went out to reading.

Similarly with numbers I would
start with counting, counting

the steps of the horse and so on.

And then counting things from the horse.

Yeah.

But then I could get friends and
family members to stand together.

One of them wears a silly
hat that one has to go.

So push that one away, making farts.

Because it's funny.

And then we see how many are left
and then this person starts to

cry because they're by themselves.

So we have to put them back.

And how many have we got?

And then say that's
adding and subtracting.

But then with division let's say I
had six people in a line, I would say

to Rowan, do you think they can run?

Let's see if they can run.

And then we'd go behind.

And of course I've told the
people what we're gonna do,

and then we come really fast.

In the Gallup?

Yeah.

In the middle going.

And the two groups of three go
and they run away to each side.

And then we have, oh, look, we've
got two groups of three, so you know,

six divided by two is three, blah.

And then we round them up.

With farts, multiply six times two,
like a cowboy, a farting cowboy,

you know, and suddenly we have
multiplication and we found that

this kind of thing worked very well.

Are you doing something similar, or is
it, does it happen differently with you?

Monique: Yeah, it, it is,
it is only with a child.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Monique: So there are
no other people, people

Rupert Isaacson: around,

Monique: around?

No.

Okay.

No.

Rupert Isaacson: And how, let's,
so let's say it was something

like the using of the numbers.

Monique: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Can
you give us an example?

Monique: Yeah.

I can sometimes I put a clock, um mm-hmm.

On the ground.

And I will ask them how, how late it
is when they are already doing that.

So, so it's, it's, eh, also what you also
told put numbers around in the certain

world or I let them search for it.

It's also something Yes.

Sometimes I let 'em search for it.

And I put a number on and I thought,
well go for, look for the same numbers,

and then they have to pronounce it also.

Mm-hmm.

What kind of number do you have?

Sometimes I put also the words under
the number so they have it both.

So they have, and the
number and the words.

So, for example two, then they
also have, have the word two.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Under the number.

So there are a couple of ways.

I can yeah, teach them.

Rupert Isaacson: And is this generally
with younger kids or is it all ages?

Monique: Most of our till 12 years.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yes.

And what is, would you say the most
complex mathematical thing that you would

Monique: do?

Mm, that's a difficult question because
every child has his own difficulty,

so, yeah, that's a difficult question.

I cannot really say this, this thing
is really on top of it or something.

No, no.

I'm

Rupert Isaacson: just thinking, for
example, when, when I was finishing

the extent of my abilities with maths,
which are not very big, the process

that I just described with Rowan
was about as much as I could really

do because I'm not a mathematician.

So I then made contact with
a really good mathematician.

Mm-hmm.

Who understood what we
were doing with movement.

Yeah.

With the horse and with not,
and he's this guy called Dr.

Alfred Siegler.

He's German, and he was a physics
professor at the University of Abrook and

an old family friend of my wife's family.

He understood the need for movement,
so we asked him to come up with.

Modules, teaching modules that
we could do for children who were

needing to go to more advanced levels.

Mm-hmm.

And we found it was extraordinary
that we could teach things like how

to calculate the area of a circle
or how to calculate pie or how to

do complex geometry using the horse,
using the forest, using the dog.

Yeah.

And on our website, we have all of
these modules now for people to use.

Mm-hmm.

Because we became frustrated
with our own limitations.

Yeah.

So we began to reach out to other
people for maths and science.

And we found that through
these collaborations we

could do things like this.

Are you, are some of the kids
coming to you needing to learn

some of the higher skills?

And if so.

Are there, are you finding
ways to address that?

No.

No.

Or you just doing fairly
much at the basics?

Monique: Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Most of all the basics.

And it is most of all
that school is too quick.

They, they, they are pushing the it Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: sure.

Monique: They, they, they want to
learn it very quick, but they don't

understand what they are learning.

So that's the thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.

I agree.

It's, it's so difficult in school.

Yeah.

'cause the, the sensory
environment is wrong.

The kid can't move.

Yeah.

The school smells bad.

Yes.

They're afraid of the other kids.

They're afraid of the teacher.

Yeah.

Everything is going to push
the learning backwards.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they come out to a place like
yours, suddenly they're with somebody.

Nice.

And there were two nice people.

One of them has four legs.

One of them has two legs.

Has two legs.

Yeah.

They're in a nice environment, as you say.

There's time they can
relax and they're moving.

Yes.

Again, neuroplasticity.

Do you then get reports back from
the school, from the teachers

saying, oh, or from the parent?

This child, yeah.

Made a jump.

Monique: Yeah.

But I also recognize that
school is a little bit.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: sure.

But

Monique: I'm a teacher,
so how is this possible?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Monique: yeah.

No, it, no.

Yes.

It's,

Rupert Isaacson: they, they, they
hate admitting it, don't they?

It's like, yeah.

So it couldn't possibly be
the lady with the horse.

Yeah.

Monique: Yeah.

But, but you are only a coach.

You are not a teacher.

How so?

That's a little bit yeah.

Sometimes fights.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Fiction.

Monique: Fiction, yeah.

Fiction between the
teacher and me as a coach.

And, and how, how is it possible?

Parents are happy.

They see a kid with a smile and learning,

Rupert Isaacson: I tell
you, it really does help.

When we, we, when we do our trainings
for horse boy movement method,

one of the things that we, we
teach people is the neuroscience.

Yeah.

And when you, you understand you why
the brain is responding in this way.

And you can say to that teacher, well,
it's because blah, blah, blah, and blah.

First you create oxytocin,
then that gets rid of cortisol.

Then this creates BDNF.

BDNF does this in the brain and then
in the BDNF you get these other cells

in the cerebellum that govern Yeah.

Social skills and most
skills, and so on and so on.

And this way we can feed in
the information like this.

That's why it works.

And here are 10 university
studies that prove it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What what really helped us last year
to 20 40,024 was a PhD was published

into one of our programs, which
is called Movement Method, which

is the one we do without horses.

That's now in schools.

And but it's based on everything
that we do with horses.

It's just we realized that people
needed, you know, something

to do, you know, at home.

And we never thought that it would
end up in schools, but it did.

And then a PhD was done on Movement
Method in schools in Germany.

What were called UNK schools was
burning Point Schools where they had

an overwhelming number of of refugees.

And there were Ukrainian children
with Russian children fighting.

There were Syrian children fighting
with Iraqi children and so on.

And Movement method came in and
didn't just create better academic

and better behavior outcomes.

But also, this was
interesting, the teachers.

Wanted to stay in the job.

There was better teacher satisfaction
and fewer teachers leaving the job

because we did the study over some years.

Yeah.

It's really handy when you can point
to these things with schools and

teachers and say, well look, why are
these schools in Germany doing it?

Then, you know, why are these
schools in the USA doing it?

Why in Ireland does the government
now sponsor horse boy movement

method programs again since 2024?

Well, 'cause it works.

Why does it work?

Okay, blah, blah, blah.

So maybe when we're done with this
core, I can connect you with some people

in the Netherlands who are working in
this way and have access to that data.

Yes.

And then when you approach a school
or you're talking with a school, it's

not just you, Monique Timmermans,
you know the lady with the horses?

No, no.

We're attached to this
large scientific community.

Admittedly, we didn't
start as scientist it.

And therefore, if you don't
believe me, then show me your

doctorate in neuroscience, please.

Where did you get your doctorate?

Yeah.

And then of course I say,
well, I haven't got one.

And you say, well, then
why are we arguing?

You know?

Yeah.

And it, I, I think I, I, I'm optimistic.

I have a feeling that there's a shift
coming in education because most schools

know that essentially they're failing.

And I think many parents are voting
with their feet and removing their

children from the school system.

Yeah.

Yeah.

More than ever, you know?

Yeah.

And I, I, so one can go
from, from this and then.

I, I would bet that two years from this
conversation, those same schools will

be using you as an outside classroom,
which is what often happens to a lot of

the people that we do trainings with.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And suddenly they're saying, oh, Monique,
could you take these five children?

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Monique: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

Monique: Nice.

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: so where do
you, where's it going for you?

How do you want to develop your program?

Where do you see it?

You know.

And are, are you, are you attached to
any larger groups within the Netherlands?

Are you very much a one man show?

You know, what's your desire
for the future as an autism man?

Yeah.

Where are we going?

Monique: Where are we going?

I don't know.

I don't know where we going, but I would
like to help other people, other families.

I think I can give them
a lot of experience and I

want to have a holistic way.

Hmm.

I like that because there are a lot of
things in a family that are important.

And yeah, learning by the job.

I, I don't know where, where I'm going
to I'll take it from the moment and yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, listening to you
in this conversation, what I hear from

both of you very much is the word family.

Family, family.

Like, so you have had this experience
because you have three children.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

We have not had the time in this
conversation to talk much about the

experience of your other two children.

However, I'm sure that you have had, and
you still have to live a life in which

making sure you meet the
needs of the other two kids

presents constant challenges.

And these challenges change, right?

Yeah.

From, you know, year to
year, month to month.

And then there's also
your marriage, right?

Yeah.

So you are lucky.

You guys have stayed, you know, strong.

You've stayed together.

You know, and I know this is not
the experience of the majority

of special needs families.

It's about 80% divorce.

Now it's 50% anyway, divorce
rate, but 80%, that's high.

You must have had challenges, obviously,
like anyone, any marriage staying

together through the difficult times.

What would you say is both of you?

Let, let's, let's hear
from you a little bit.

So

as an autism dad in this situation
also, you've got it on your shoulders.

You've got say, shit, I've
gotta keep earning the money.

I've got to, but I, at the same
time, I can't separate myself.

Too much from the family and
just say, I'm earning the money.

You, Monique, go there.

Sort out the kids.

We know this doesn't work.

You know?

What were the biggest challenges for
you as a dad and how did, how has

Monique's work helped shape you as a dad?

Or has, how has you as a dad
helped shape, money shape?

Wow.

That's difficult to say.

Husband: Yeah, of course it is both ways.

Mm-hmm.

The most important thing we've
learned together is that you give

each one the time and the space
to accept the situation we are in.

Okay.

Yeah.

Especially with well, you have,
you have a special child with

Monique: special

Husband: care, special
care, special attention.

Yeah.

But your other two kids are
also special in another way.

So they need the same attention.

Yeah.

You, that's why I we earlier told that
we are very thankful that we learned in

at the dolphin therapy to, to well, to
park some for a moment because we were,

we are busy at that moment with the
other two or one or the other two kids.

Yeah.

But the most important thing is I'm a man.

I look differently at some things
especially about emotions or something

like that to, to certain situations.

Yeah.

About sound, about,
no, a number of things.

But Monique respects my point of
view at those emotions and otherwise.

I respect Monique with her emotions and,
and some, some, at some points she, she

needs more time and in other occasions
I need more time to accept things.

It's also very important that you, that
you have things that are only for you.

Yeah.

I, I like to run and, and, and,
and to go on a bicycle for a few

hours or, or something like that.

Yeah.

Sport is very important for me.

So she gave me the opportunity
to, to, to, to do my sports.

Yeah.

The other thing is Nick is
not, she already told Yeah.

Horses are everything.

Yeah.

So she needs her space and
her time with the horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Husband: So you, that's, that's that's the
balance you are looking for constantly.

Yes.

Yes.

And, and after a, after a while,
you, you, you don't have to think

anymore how to, to get that balance.

You recognize when you, oh, okay.

Now we're a little off balance.

What do we need to, to, to balance again,

Rupert Isaacson: again?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely.

This type of, of communication,
it's so interesting because what

we're trying to do, I think with
all of our equine assisted practice

is get communication, right?

You're dealing with an a nonverbal kid
or you're trying to get communication.

You're dealing with somebody who has
depression is a little shut down,

or it's all about communication.

Of course, marriage is, you know, yes.

We know that when we stop communicating,
things get funky very fast.

Yes.

But fortunately I think in our
practice we do, well, we have a

practice of trying to communicate.

So perhaps it comes a little
more naturally to us to say

maybe we don't want to be here.

Maybe.

We have some tools to get
out of here let's use them.

Do you guys help other couples with this?

Do you advise the parents not just
in their parenting, but also in their

communication within the marriage at all?

Has this come into the practice?

Monique: Not especially but
sometimes I have some kind of

couples in my practice, yeah.

Who has this problem.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Monique: So yeah, on that way it is.

And the only thing I have done
two years ago was it maybe, yeah,

Husband: she had, she had a, a lecture

Monique: Yeah.

Husband: For a number of people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Another

Monique: parents yeah.

A lot of different

Husband: people who are
connected with autism.

So parents with autism, but also people
from the, the community, from government

social workers, et cetera like that.

And there she she gave a lecture
about her, about our experience.

Yeah.

How to deal with yeah.

A child who has autism.

Monique: What to do with, with when
it is eastern and you have all the

family on your table standing nice
and, and your, your son or daughter

is, is going to the kitchen alone.

No, you have to come over here because No.

Just let them, no,

Rupert Isaacson: let

Monique: them thing.

Well, many eyes opened over
there and they told me, really?

Are you doing that this way?

Yeah.

How nice.

And I really thought, huh, you don't know.

It's, it's, it's, yeah, it

Rupert Isaacson: is interesting, isn't it?

Yeah.

I, I think one of the things which is
the key here, whether we're talking

about with the child or whether
we're talking about with each other,

it's about letting off the pressure.

Yes.

Yeah.

I, I think that so often there
is this tendency to think.

We are in a crisis situation here or
something we just put more pressure on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And whether we do this, I do this
to my wife, or I do this to my kid,

or my kid does it to me or, and
it's often at that, and I think this

is where horses are really good.

Yeah.

We know that when things get challenging
with horses, if you put more pressure

on in that moment, you could die.

Yeah.

Like you really could.

Yeah.

You've gotta be very
angry like that, you know?

So why don't we apply the same
logic to our human situations?

And it's so interesting that whenever
we do, whenever we say, you know,

just let him go to the kitchen and let
the Easter unfold for everybody else,

and we will work on being able to be
together at table over five years.

It's fine.

Suddenly you feel that sense of, oh.

Like a relief or, yeah, in a marriage.

Oh, you mean I don't have to fix
all your problems and you don't

have to fix all my problems.

Whew.

Thank God I can't.

I know I can't.

Here is something which I think you know,
we're approaching now towards, you know,

the hour and a half, two hour mark and,
you know, we can pick this conversation

up again later, but something I'm seeing
more and more, I think with the parents

that I work with who are more than 10
years into this adventure, that what

is not addressed is the cumulative
trauma that special needs parents go

through in the course of their lives.

And that there is never
any time to address this.

And I'm not saying that
we can create this time.

Because life is life.

Yeah.

But I think it would be useful to begin
to put together some sort of methodology

for looking at this, acknowledging
this saying, well, what do we do?

Given that this is not an ideal situation
when people need 30, 40 years of 50

years of energy to keep this going.

And, you know, you're, you're a
financial advisor, so, you know, so

I know from this financial side too,
with special needs, you really have to

think, okay, what happens after I die?

You know, and.

Not j There's the, the financial side,
and then there's also the family side.

Will the family come together
around my child, or will my child

be somewhat alone after I die?

Yeah.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

These worries that we keep us up at night.

Plus just the cumulative, the accumulated
exhaustion and worry and yeah.

Flat out trauma.

Yeah.

So this business of being a
special needs parent and a special

needs couple obviously we've seen
that it can split people apart

or it can weld people together.

Do you see your practice evolving over the
next few years towards helping couples?

Monique: Yeah, of course.

Yeah, for sure.

I can bring a lot.

I have a lot of experience and I
know the way you have to go through

it, it's not always easy, but

Rupert Isaacson: never is.

Monique: Never is.

It never is.

But but also there when you listen to
each other that it's gonna be okay.

You, you have to know it's always with
the, with the best ways you are doing it.

Rupert Isaacson: That everyone
is actually trying their best.

Monique: Yeah.

It's not, it's not because you don't like
your partner or No, it's just because

probably you love your husband or your
wife and you want the best for it,

but that's sometimes it, it's, it, it
struggles it be because you, you want,

well, I think, I think too with stress,

Rupert Isaacson: the
stress hormone, cortisol.

It makes us not rational, right?

So we know this, when, when cortisol gets
going in the brain, the stress hormone,

we become aggressive, we become defensive.

We,

Monique: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: we become
three years old again.

And if we are in situations where
this is happening constantly, then

we're constantly three years old.

And this is not helpful.

Monique: No, no.

Rupert Isaacson: So I would be very
interested in the next, I, I think

this is where it has to go in our work.

I think most of us have been concentrating
for the last 20 years or so on the

child perhaps, or, or the individual
with the condition, perhaps the family

as well, but not really the couple.

Not really the primary
engine that keeps Yeah.

The whole thing going.

Yeah.

And I'm realizing more and more that
this is where we have to collaborate.

You know, all of us who have been,
I want to throw this out there

for the listeners and the viewers.

If you've been in this journey for more
than 10 years, you have a lot to share.

And do we all need to get together
now and create a practice that does

address the exhaustion, the trauma, the,

the deep unhappiness and sadness

Monique: Exactly.

That,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, can grow over
time despite, yes, it's beautiful and

yes, we can see success, but it, you know,

sometimes having to, to speak
so positively all the time

can also take its toll that.

You know, what do we do with the sadness?

You know, what, what, what do you feel?

You two, what, what, what do we do?

Monique: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Husband: the point is when your child
is born, you have several expectations

about they go to university, they,
they make friends, they, they get

married, get children et cetera.

All that kind of life events Yeah.

That you are expecting.

And when they are diagnosed autism
a lot of these expectations you have

to change because, you know, some
won't get married or get children or

graduate at, at, at high school or
university or something like that.

Monique: It's a kind of grief.

Husband: It's, it's a
kind of breed indeed.

And, and, you have to find a way to see
the, the positive things of, of Stan,

you, you, you, you are much easier,
happy about the little steps he makes

in comparing with the other children
who does graduate or do the things

do the yeah, do the things are yeah.

Similar with their age.

You know what I mean?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I do.

I do.

I'm just thinking while you
were talking about Rowan.

And so although Rowan is, you
know, he's very independent.

He has his own house and car
now he travels independently.

He has a couple of different jobs.

Yeah.

And in some ways though, he's
also still completely autistic.

It, it's in parallel.

This, this yeah.

Extreme functionality with
this extreme, you know, autism.

But what, what, what I really.

Have come to see is that he
has this role as a peacemaker.

He resolves conflict.

He does it within my family.

When we are all pissed off with each
other Rowan only has to enter the

conversation and suddenly we are
all a little bit back on our game.

It makes us focus on what's important.

And then I find too that when he is
physically present, people behave better.

People are, and I bet it's
the same with Stan, right?

That's right.

Yeah.

That's, yeah.

Yeah.

You, you were talking about like when
he's out with the dog in the neighborhood

and everyone is, oh, they're, look,
now they're looking out for Stan.

And if they, they either see the dog and
if they see the dog, they know he's there.

Or if they see he's there,
they know the dog is there.

The, this is a cohesive.

Thing for the, for the community.

And so when you're talking about adjusting
expectations, I think what's often not

presented is there are actually some
really high and good expectations.

Like, for example, are children taking
on these conflict resolving roles?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which are very, very valuable.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

But this is not something which
is presented to us culturally.

So maybe people like you, people like me,
need to be going out there with this Yeah.

And say, okay, you've resolved, you
know, you're abandoning, there's a

grief over this set of expectations and
dreams, but here are the other ones.

Yes.

Monique: Yes.

Sometimes I, I, I tell someone
else when everyone was like, stump.

It would be a beautiful world

Rupert Isaacson: would be 'cause he

Monique: learns us to enjoy the
little things, the times he is

walking with his frock on his finger.

Look, I have a frock.

Well, I'm glad I'm, I'm laughing.

I'm, I'm, yeah, it's lovely because
I don't even catch a frog and

he is just walking with a frog

Rupert Isaacson: and so something
is going on in the consciousness

field between him and the frog.

Yeah.

Something is going and, and that
reminds us, ah, there are these

different fields of consciousness.

Yeah.

And I can't walk around
with a frog on my finger.

You can't walk around
with a frog on your feet.

No.

No.

He can.

Yeah.

What else can he do?

He can resolve conflict by
walking through the community.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Perhaps the person
who sees him has just had a big

argument with their wife or kid,
and then they see Stan and the dog

come through and they're like, whew.

Yeah.

I bet you that's going on.

Monique: Yeah.

Yeah,

Husband: yeah.

That's now because Stu has no
expectations to anyone, to no one at all.

Monique: I just want to tell.

Husband: Okay.

And, and we always had expectation.

We always already imagination,
imagination things.

How, what's going to ha what's
going to happen, how it should

be perhaps would be happen.

Yeah.

How it should be.

And, and Stu doesn't do that
because not because, so he

is, he's living the life yeah.

Right at the moment.

Right at the moment.

Monique: Just moment by moment
and not what it's about next week.

No.

This just like horses.

Husband: Yes.

Now this, this is it, and not
what may this moment happen.

Monique: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Unconditional love.

Monique: Yeah.

Yes.

Unconditional love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's a
great, that's a great note to end on.

I look forward to continuing
this conversation.

You know, I, I think mon
you, you and I should try to

collaborate a little bit nice.

And obviously there's a fair horse
boy community in the Netherlands.

But particularly over this business of
the parent, the parental experience,

and perhaps both of you, you know,
we could continue this conversation.

I'd be, I, I, I think
it, it, it has to happen.

Um mm-hmm.

But thank you so much for coming on
the show and having this conversation.

I really appreciate it.

I know our listeners Thank you.

We liked it last.

Yeah.

Monique: We're to very last.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell yes.

Yeah.

Spread the word.

Spread the word.

And, you know, next time I'm coming
through the Netherlands I'd love

to come and, and check out ini.

So I see for those people
who want to check out.

Monique's work.

It's in Compi nl, right?

Yes.

Right.

And if you're an English speaker,
the Compi bit is spelled with a K.

With a K?

Monique: Yes.

In

Rupert Isaacson: Compi, IE.

So it's like compassion.

But with a K, not a C.

And IE, not I, in Compi
nl for the Netherlands.

Monique: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Check out her stuff.

Monique: Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: We will.

All right.

All right.

Okay, my friends.

Until the next time.

Thank you again

Monique: next time.

Thank you.

See

Rupert Isaacson: you.

Bye-bye.

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