Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Okay, I have got Susie Pritchard Jones.

I've reeled her in from
the thoroughbred industry.

This is interesting today.

There is a conversation going on
within therapeutic riding about

off the track thoroughbreds and
whether or not they can or should

do our kind of equine assisted work.

And it's interesting, people have
very, very strong feelings about this.

Often negatively, and this has often
surprised me, but that's because

I grew up with thoroughbreds.

I, that was the only horse I knew.

As a teenager warm bloods just weren't
even a thing in England at that time.

They crept in later.

We had something called the Hunter
Improvement Society, which turned into the

British warm blood, but we were years off.

Of course, we had hunters and cross
breads and cobs and things like that, but

thoroughbreds were what most of us cut
our teeth on, and we absolutely realized

that we could repurpose, particularly the
steeple chasers quite easily to do various

types of job within the eventing, jumping
sort of a world and obviously hunting.

And although you did get the odd one
that was a bit of a nutter actually

the vast majority of them, were really,
really good once they knew the job.

So it's clear from me talking
that I'm on Team Thoroughbred.

But it's understandable for people who
don't really know them and are nervous

of them why they might be skeptical.

And of course we also know that there
can be a big difference between a

flat racer very, very hot, perhaps not
terribly strong in the back, et cetera, et

cetera, and a a big solid steeple chaser.

But that said, there's a lot more to it
because we know that the industry the

thoroughbred industry is not a popular
one even within the the, the horse world.

And we know that our therapy work is
getting more and more attention and

whether or not we think thoroughbreds
should or shouldn't be used in what we

do and whether or not we think the racing
industry should or shouldn't exist.

The fact is that both.

Do exist.

And I think that if we don't explore
this and explore this in some

depth, then we are not doing due
diligence within our own practice.

So anyway, Susie Pritchard Jones
is a breeder of racehorses.

She's also someone who cares
very much about the thoroughbred

horse as well as humans.

And she divides her time between
Ireland and Florida, although she

breeds her race horses in the uk.

And she is well versed in this industry
and she had the, the good graces to come

and attend our Horse Boy Tribe Day, which
we had in Ireland this year, in 2025.

And educate us a little bit about
what the possibilities might be.

Between the work we do and
the thoroughbred industry.

So without further ado,
I've rambled as I always do.

Susie, welcome on the show.

Thanks for coming on.

Why on earth do you even give a flying
beep about the work we do and because

we know what we all thoroughbred.

People are just all in it
for the money, aren't you?

And yeah, why, why this
curiosity around thoroughbreds

and the work of healing humans.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well, Ruit, thank
you firstly for having me on the show.

I mean, I'm hugely honored and
I, when you asked me, I said this

is gonna be a really short one,
Rupert, it'll be about two minutes.

'cause I dunno,

Rupert Isaacson: we all
golf down the pub then

Suzi Prichard-Jones: well out of me.

But I grew up in the.

I grew up on a step farm in Ireland.

My father bred horses and
sold them and raced them.

And I grew up with a Harry Shetland pony
and then a Welsh cob and I hunted show,

jumped cross country, loved to go fast.

And then I started show jumping
some three quarter bread.

So they were three quarters thoroughbred
and probably the other part would

be Kamara or Irish draft horses.

And then I got sucked into riding
out thoroughbreds, which is great

fun because you get to go fast.

Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly, not
everyone knows what riding out means.

Can you just explain the terminology

Suzi Prichard-Jones: you go to?

Every morning trainers take the sets of.

Thoroughbreds to the gallops and
they have exercise riders, right?

So I got to be an exercise rider,

Rupert Isaacson: short stirrups,
bum in the air, like a jockey.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: All of the above

Rupert Isaacson: going nuts
on a young thoroughbred

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
going on for dear life.

Yeah.

I actually was looking at a short
video this morning that had been made

in Australia and they were talking
about, you know, how it was so wrong

and they used to domineer horses and
make the horses do what they want.

And there was one woman who
was a breeder of horses.

She said she'd, she'd bred 80
folds and she made her voices

do what she wanted them to do.

And I thought.

Well, number one, I had a little
hairy she and pony that landed

me down its neck first off.

And we Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Good luck with
making that thing do anything.

Yeah.

We

Suzi Prichard-Jones: had an L stud
brew and he said, hit her before

the fence, hit her over the fence
and hit her when you land because

she didn't really want to jump.

And she put me off more times
than, you know, probably had

hot dinners at that that age.

And then after that, when I
had my Welsh cob, he used to

run off with me all the time.

Yeah.

And goes riding the race horses
and very often it's on a wing in

a prayer and it's like a lot of
trust and faith in each other.

And you just, you get to that point
where they really want to go and you

are holding on as hard as you can
till you reach that point where they

just take your breath and they relax.

But

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: You can't just, they
take you to the edge sometimes and if

you can't just relax and sit there and
not panic, they're gonna go with you.

So this idea of dominating horses it
was something very foreign into me

because a I wouldn't say I had a huge
amount of bottle anyway as in nerve.

So it was always a question
of working with them.

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So
you don't wanna go there?

Well, how if we go over here
and then we go around and we go

there and then everybody's happy.

So it was, it was that relationship
that you developed with every No, I

Rupert Isaacson: would, I would agree.

I'm often perplexed myself when people
talk about people forcing horses to do

things because it, that it's actually
not a terribly easy thing to do.

But I think maybe what they mean is just
being a bit shitty to the horse, you know?

If the emotion coming towards the
horse is always kind of negative and

kind, I want you to do this thing you
don't really want to do, rather than

trying to show you how this might
be something we want to do together.

I suppose that you do get that
type of personality type in the

horse world is in anywhere, right?

People that really want to control.

But I would agree with you.

I wouldn't say that that is
in the old days, I'm now old.

I wouldn't say that was really the norm,
even though it's, there's a mythology now.

I agree that it was the norm,
but I, I, I agree with you.

I don't really think it ever was.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I think if you
grew up hunting like we did Rupert your

horses, your ponies, they loved it.

Yeah.

I mean, my Welsh cob yeah, as, as
somebody tried to jump a fence in front

of him, they could fall into the ditch.

Didn't matter.

He, he didn't even give
me a chance to look at it.

He

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

He was going,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: he was gone.

But if nobody tried that
fence, he wouldn't go.

That hella high water
wouldn't get him over it.

So.

Yeah, no,

Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

It was, I think the thing with the
hunting world too, again, whatever

you think morally about hunting,
'cause you can also go drag hunting.

You don't have to go,
you know, real hunting.

But when you go out in a group like
that across country, the horses

are in their big social herd.

They're loving it.

They're clearly loving it.

I agree.

It, it's, it, it's so much about
the need to stay alive too.

If you are the monkey sitting up there,
you don't want to go against your horse.

And I think we all learn that quite.

Quickly,

you know?

So yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And that kind of
leads very nicely into why I think the

work that you are doing and so many other
people are doing giving help through

horses, it brings us back to this age old
relationship that we've had horses, we've

walked beside horses for over 6,000 years,
and were it not for the horse, it's been

a partnership between horse and human.

Where it horse, we would
not be where we are today.

Rupert Isaacson: Very true.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Course
that help create civilization.

So we've always had this bond with horses
up until the last 80 to a hundred years.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And
we have lost that now and.

There's a marvelous connection
that anybody who is around horses

has is, and we've all been really
privileged to have them in our lives.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Because the
therapists, they are natural therapists

and I see so many young teenagers that are
going through hell and they're isolated.

And now with, since COVID and with the
dependence on technology that we have,

we've got a whole generation that are
very, very isolated from the humans.

And depression is a big thing.

Rupert Isaacson: I would agree.

Particularly interestingly
among young men.

It used to be considered rather a
female thing, that type of depression.

And, and it switched.

It seems almost now pro post COVID
and we have a whole generation of boys

that won't come out of the basement.

And we call it the Lost Boys.

Mm-hmm.

But I believe it doesn't have to be.

So, but nature and the mind are where
we need to be concerned with this.

And what does a horse do of
course, but connect us that way.

So I I'm absolutely with you on that
and that I don't really see any coercion

and any thoroughbred that I ever met
because they're bred to run runs joyfully.

I am absolutely of the opinion that
you certainly don't need to coerce

or force a thoroughbred to run.

They will run because they like to run.

They do it in the field, they'll
do it at any opportunity.

It's what they like to do.

I've got human friends that like
to do that as well, by the way.

And they are built a bit different to me.

They're generally longer
and stringier than I am.

And they love to run, you know?

So.

Okay, we can accept that there is a
running gene in a horse and that if

you breed to that, you get horses
that are very desirous of doing that.

Sure.

But why do you give, again, a flying
bleep about the work that we do?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Because I think
everybody needs horses in their lives.

I think we've, we've always had them,
and it's only, like I say, in the last

80 to a hundred years that we've access
you see it in your work with autistic

children when parents will say, you
know, the child smiled for the first

time in however long or maybe ever,
but you see it in any kid that is not

afraid and wants to get on a pony.

You see that being
from, from here to here.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: You're happy

Rupert Isaacson: even so.

You're a thoroughbred chick and
you haven't really touched our

work until now, so something
must have sparked your curiosity.

And just to play devil's advocate
against myself, I also did not

spend the first decades of my life
wanting to do equine assisted work.

No thank you at all.

It only happened when my son, as we know,
forced his own relationship with a horse.

Went from nonverbal to verbal and
I realized I had to follow this

and I had to follow it to the hilt.

But I absolutely do not hold it
against people to not necessarily

be interested until a certain point,
but I'm always interested in why

someone's interest gets sparked.

What's the catalyst?

And did you have some, any incidents
when you were younger in, you know,

as a teenager or in your earlier life
or even later where psychologically

or emotionally there was some.

Trigger point for you?

For example, for me in my personal
life, take my son out of it.

When I was in my early adolescence, I was
having a very, very tough time at school.

And I got to a point where I couldn't
get outta bed and I was effectively

one of those lost boys for a little
bit and it was horses that got me out.

So I knew from very early that I owed
what passes as sanity for me to ponies.

So have there been any catalysts
like that in your life?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Sure I was
I had a very lucky and privileged

upbringing, but I was an only
child and my pony was my salvation.

It was, you know, there were
a lot of my parents were very

Victorian and very strict, and I
was, I didn't conform that easily.

Rupert Isaacson: I can feel the pain.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

I don't think, I didn't have
a pair of jeans, denim jeans.

I was about 17.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So I was,
and I was always trying to

buck for the establishment.

So it was and my, my pony
was literally my sanity.

Mm

Rupert Isaacson: mm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So I really, you
know, I've always loved, loved horses and

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

A pony is by its very nature,
both rock and roll and punk rock.

Like, it's the soul of freedom
and rebellion, isn't it?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Because
that's, that's who they are.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: The tipping
point as far as the therapeutic riding

and EAS is concerned was there's
an organization called IAR, the

International Forum for the aftercare
of race horses that was set up in 2016.

They work mainly with regulatory
bodies around the world as

opposed to boots on the ground.

But they did make this marvelous video
of there was a ride in Dovi in France

and they had several therapeutic
organizations there in attendance.

And one of them was Horseback uk and
they had interviewed Jock Hutson and

he said, we have mainly thorough roads.

Rupert Isaacson: By the way, lads
listening to this, our podcast with

Emma Hutchinson from Horseback uk and
Jay, her assistant and manager there.

You must go and go back through Equine
Assisted World and listen to that one

because it's an amazing organization.

Okay, sorry.

Back to you.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And the light bulb
went off and I thought we've got the

horse racing industry, which is the low
hanging fruit on the equestrian tree as

far as animal rights people are concerned.

And we have two things in the
thoroughbred industry that are the low

hanging fruits and vulnerable areas,
and one is breakdowns of race horses

because that hits everybody on a
visceral level and it's just the most

horrible thing it you've ever witnessed
that, and you don't have to do it.

Unfortunately, it happens sometimes just
as you get wrecks in Grand Prix racing

or cycling or various other things.

Rupert Isaacson: Athletic endeavor.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Anything that's slightly
on the, the edge of danger.

And the other thing was what was
happening with retired race horses,

and most of them find second homes and
second careers, but some of them don't.

And that's a concern.

And it's a, it's an area that is becoming
under more and more scrutiny from the

industry and the industry worldwide is
trying to address that because you have

to remember that we've had horse racing.

Since the Greeks discovered one horse
could run faster than the other.

Rupert Isaacson: We've
had it longer than that.

We've had it, we've had it since the
steps we've had it for since the Yeah.

The to people 6,000 years
ago, whenever first started to

breed for the higher weather.

In in,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: yeah.

Once the, once the human
monkey figured out.

But it could voices back and,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Through the world.

But the thoroughbred industry and
thoroughbred racing has only been

around since the 18th century.

And the thoroughbred was bred by very
skilled group of men in North Yorkshire in

the late 17th century, early 18th century.

And typically until the beginning,
middle, probably middle part of the

20th century, IT com pro, the racing
world comprised of owner breeders.

So when a horse retired from
racing, they would go back to

these larger states or farms.

Well, that whole picture started
to change mid 20th century.

And you had people who did not
have land coming in and buying race

horses and now you have syndicate.

And so the whole landscape has
changed and the racing industry

has been a bit on the back foot
catching up with it at the beginning.

So when I saw the Ifar video, I
thought, well, this is a no-brainer.

Why aren't we using
thoroughbreds in this world?

We have an industry that's a global
industry, it has a global media network.

We can get the word out about what
is happening and we can get it.

'cause we have a very
diverse group of owners.

We get that word out and
then we get this thing going.

And I'm at the point now where it's
like, right lads, stop mucking around

and let's, let's get this thing
going because it has huge potential.

So that was the sort of light
bulb, was the iPhone video.

Rupert Isaacson: So what's interesting to
me about that is okay, so that video, I

know of that video and the, the ride at
Ville, let's say someone's listening, you

know, who might not know what that meant.

Ville, that area of France is of
course where the D-Day landings

happened in World War ii.

And so these were groups of these
were veteran groups who do work with

equine assisted work and veterans
having a really good idea, which was

to go and do this ride on those beaches
where the Normandy landings happened.

And all those tens of thousands of,
of young men got killed on both sides.

As a way of.

Bringing our attention not just to
the sacrifice that was made back then.

Otherwise we'd probably all speak
be speaking German right now.

Although actually I did just
sit my B one German exam.

And so now I, I do actually speak
German, but hey but voluntarily

not at the point of a gut.

And also it drew attention to the work
that is done for post-traumatic stress

disorder because a lot of those men
who survived World War II survived

with what we then called shell shock.

But we've come to call PTSD and it was
difficult for them to reintegrate to

civilian life, and not all of them did.

And the sacrifice that is made on the
battlefield sometimes goes on for decades.

Thereafter.

We, you referred to Horseback uk.

You know, Jay, who runs the program
there, who we did a podcast with a

little while ago, he got his face
blown off, you know, and in Afghanistan

and you know, he said, that's a
really interesting to lose your face.

Your face is your identity, whether
you like your face or you don't

like your face, it's you, you know?

And to not be you is a really,
really, really strange thing.

He said his leg getting blown
off and that sort of thing.

It's kind of a bit more
like, eh, but the face, whoa.

And even though reconstruction was
done, you know, you can imagine the

psychological effects and the horse of
course as a wonderful thing with this.

Now you mentioned Horseback UK also
because they use a lot of thoroughbreds

and in our own Horse Boy program
particularly in California, interestingly

enough with Square Peg Foundation, Joel
Dunlap, who runs that, they're almost

exclusively Thoroughbreds and it's quite
a lot of our places in Ireland too.

Laskin at Farm has quite a few with David
Doyle and of course where we did our Tribe

day at Stewart's Care in County Meat.

There's a few thoroughbreds
there, interestingly, in Ireland.

There's quite often, even though it's
like one of the homes of the thoroughbred,

there's often a real pushback among an
unexpectedly strong pushback among the

therapeutic riding folk that Thoroughbreds
should not really be used for this.

Why do you think that is?

And what do you say to that?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I'm laughing
because it's not just, it's not

necessarily, thoroughbreds shouldn't
be used for therapeutic work.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: This is
all based on a perception.

Right.

And, you know, I would say if you have
12 blonde hair, blue-eyed men going up

in an elevator to the sixth floor, by
the time they get to the first floor,

they'll have sorted themselves into
the, the ones that have bigger ears

and the ones that have smaller ears.

And, but it's a natural human instinct.

We have to sift and sort.

And nobody likes the racing world.

In the equestrian world, everybody.

I've got a good South American
friend from Argentina, and you find,

oh, we don't like the resilience
or we don't like the bolivians.

And it's the same in the equestrian world.

It's, we don't like the
thoroughbred people.

The thoroughbred people are
seen as elitist and we get all

kinds of monkeys anonymous.

And if you're riding a thoroughbred,
and I, I, I'm sure you've probably

found this through, but if you are
riding a thoroughbred and you are

out on the hunting field and somebody
will go, oh, that's a thoroughbred.

And they think they're flighty and
they're scatty and they're going to kick

and they're going to do all kinds of
things, horses are what we make them.

If we treat them with respect.

And expect them to have
manners, expect them to stand.

There's no reason they can't stand.

There's no reason they can't have manners.

They will do whatever you want
them to do, thorough, both really,

really, really want to please.

And they're not, some of them are
high strung, but they're not all high

strung and they're very sensitive.

They're very reactive, they're
incredibly intelligent, and they were

bred, they're one of the few breeds
that were really selectively bred

for the best traits, including speed,
but also for all the other traits

because they were bred by these really,
really smart men in the 17th century.

Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting,
like as you're talking to me

about that, that that hunt field
experience, because there's.

A lot of times out of the hunt field,
the thoroughbreds are flighty, but

they're flighty, unfortunately because
they're not set up for success, as

you know, in the amateur racing world,
which is point to pointing, you have

to take the young thoroughbreds out
and qualify them by hunting them a

certain number of times with a hunt
so that they can go and hunt race.

And I've always thought that that was
a tricky thing to do because people

then take out 4-year-old thoroughbreds
in the hunt field, which is a, you

know, psychologically and emotionally,
pretty highly charged environment.

And then the thoroughbreds do leap all
over the place because they're just

young horses leaping all over the place.

And yeah, people naturally give
them a wide ber, but it's being

done just so that they can go in a
hunt race later rather than being.

Correctly schooled so that they
can just be calm on the hunt field.

But as you said, I think
that unfortunately that has

added to the perception.

But,

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
but in the United States

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: In Ireland they're
all thoroughbreds on the hunt field.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And I worked for
Michael Dickinson was a very famous

English steeplechase trainer who had
the first five home in the Gold Cup.

And he went to America and
started training in America.

We used to ring with three year olds out
hunting on a Friday, and they loved it.

Their little ears prick.

They hear the hunting horn,
they follow the hands.

They're not flighted.

They will do anything you wanted to do.

And you've been to square peg
and I've seen the videos of

photographs of Joel's Absolutely.

And their hands, you know.

Yeah.

You go into any, any racing yard you can.

Put the 2-year-old child on
some of those horses back.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Just like,

Rupert Isaacson: no, I'm with you.

I'm with you.

I'm just, I'm agreeing with, you
know, sometimes the perception has

come because people make some poor
choices about, you know, where to put

those young thoroughbreds and that
doesn't really serve the purpose.

But I agree with you that in
my experience, once you show

a thoroughbred the job, they
are exceptionally intelligent.

So they will adapt to
that job very, very fast.

And even if they have come in from, you
know, thinking that the job is always to

run once you show them there's a different
job, they're actually very versatile.

And they're like, well, okay,
yeah, I'll do that job instead.

And then I'll get my jollies out
when I go running in the field

with my friends, or when my
trainer takes me out for a, a nice.

You know, mood clearing Gallup.

And then when I go back in the
arena with my special needs

therapeutic riders, I'm good.

And, and I work with, as you know,
largely lucit horses because I like

'em and they're super adaptable and
versatile and very good dressage horses

and also very good jumpers actually.

I like 'em and they can
also be quite passionate.

So I give 'em a lot of
what I call crazy time.

And I'm always telling people who have
therapeutic practices of any kind.

Remember that any horse that you
have is bred to be an athlete.

Whether they're a pulling athlete
or a jumping athlete or a racing

athlete, they're bred to move and it's
a good idea to give them some playful

movement in the course of their.

Weak just for their mental health as,
as much as anything else in the same

way that children, one, one would do it.

Where they don't have to be a
thoroughbred to need that, or horses

actually need that to some degree.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well, I
think Rupert, what we, we haven't

touched upon here is horsemanship.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And you
can have a bad lucer turner.

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: yes.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: A bad, you

Rupert Isaacson: can make
any horse bad, right?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Horse bad.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It's how you, I've

Rupert Isaacson: been
doing it all my life.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It's how
you, you interact with your horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Any breed.

It's what you expect from them.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

And

Suzi Prichard-Jones: to give back to them.

There are, yes, there are thoroughbreds,
but they're mainly bad because

people have made them that way.

There are bad warm bloods.

There are rot,

Rupert Isaacson: there

Suzi Prichard-Jones: are
rotten IES out there, but

Rupert Isaacson: hypnosis, yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Part of
that is what we have made them.

So

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I think the most
important thing is having good horse

people and, and horse men and, and women.

You do have to know how
to handle a thoroughbred.

One of the, the most lovely things
I learned at tribe Day in Cocoon

in August this year with you was
your crazy time for your horses.

Where before you start working,
then you let them out in the school

and you build some jumps and they
can jump and run around and Yeah.

They want, any living
creature is made up of energy.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Unless you can
express that energy, it gets bottled

up and it becomes destructive.

And you've got to do what you do.

Have the crazy time.

Have the, the downtime.

Let them have fun.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

I think, I think horses.

Just like people desperately
need time to express themselves

where they're not micromanaged.

I think quite a lot of resentment
builds up in humans when

we micromanage each other.

And the same thing with horses, and of
course with horses now all horses are

basically leisure horses these days.

So there's a lot of expectation
from the owner to perform.

And this has created, I feel, sometimes
an overly controlled environment,

which horses end up resenting.

And some of the explosions that we see
now are not actually because the horses

bred to run or anything is because
they're just pissed off because they

don't like a kid in school just constantly
being in class rather than, you know,

and, and now we know with schools we
have less and less sport, less and less

recess, less and less playtime, less
and less break, more and more academics.

It's not good, you know,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: or more problems.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And then even if they pass all their
exams and they're just miserable,

you know, so that we get the logic
of and also yes, create the, you

create the horse that you want.

There's two stories that stand
out for me in my life like that.

Just to speak to your point there,
it's a very good point when you

said horses kind of will adopt the
persona that you expect of them.

You know how there's some people
who like love to ride hot horses and

be the person who, and somehow they
always have a hot horse under them.

But often when you pass that horse
to somebody else, it's not so hot

and it's like the horse just, no,
I'm expected to be kind of hot.

I used to, when I used to hunt as a
teenager, I remember there was this

boy, this man who was a fighter ace,
he'd been shot down in the Battle

of Britain and he'd lost his legs
and he'd lost his legs quite high.

So it wasn't like he had
them, you know, to the knee or

something with a prosthetic.

His prosthetics went almost to his hip.

And as you know, in that area
of England where I used to hunt,

which is lestershire, the, the
fences, the jumps are, are big.

So, and sometimes you get fields
of up to 120 riders, you know, out.

So there's a lot of pushing and jostling
and people getting run away with.

And I remember one woman turning to
him once and saying, how come you

never get run away with by horses?

And quite a lot of his
horses were thoroughbreds.

And he said, Madam, because if they
did, I wouldn't be able to stop them.

That was such a telling, because
for him it was life or death.

And then another life or death
thing was, one of the guys who first

turned me onto in hand work was a
French master called Bernard Saxe.

He's still out there and he's really
interesting 'cause he's in a wheelchair.

He was a stunt man and he
broke his back during a stunt.

And he does his in-hand work with
someone standing behind him in

the chair and maneuvering him.

And they have to like read his
mind for where he wants to be.

It's amazing to watch.

And I was watching him do it in an
aisle of lucit stallions and the

stallions could get their heads over
the stable doors and they couldn't

quite get their teeth into the other,
but they could certainly threaten to.

And I was looking at this going on.

I said, Bernard, what are you
gonna do if one of this horse

like reacts and jumps on you?

He says, well then Rupert, I would die.

But he said, what you'll find
Rupert, is that in general there

are exceptions, but in general the
horses will take on the personality.

Of the culture, of the stable
that you create yourself.

You are the lead horse.

And in my case, I choose
for that to be pretty chill

because my life depends on it.

But yes, there, there's a risk.

So those, I I, I absolutely
agree with you on that.

One of the other things which I, I
find intriguing though is the feeling

I get is that you are getting into
this work of advocacy for thoroughbreds

in special needs work and, and
healing work as much to save the

thoroughbred itself as to help monkeys.

And I rather like that.

Because I feel that's a very
honest place to come from.

Could you elucidate a little bit?

You, you said earlier that the racing
industry is the low hanging fruit.

Okay.

For not only for the animal rights
industry what is an industry,

actually animal rights industry,
but also because of its unpopularity

within the equestrian world.

And I'm sorry, but a lot of the racing
people are their own worst enemies.

They do come across as wan.

'cause a lot of them, they just do.

I'm, you know, they do.

And, and they could amend their
behavior and just be cooler and

maybe they'll have to be later.

But up until now, they have been
a fairly elitist close bunch.

When you meet them, they're not terribly
welcoming compared, but that doesn't

mean they're wrong or evil or anything.

It just means that they're
a bit autistic and tribal.

However that, that, that is
a many people's experience.

Yeah.

That doesn't come out of nowhere.

Same with the hunting people.

You know, hunting people have
been their own worst enemies.

I should know.

I, I loved hunting and I could watch them.

Or shooting their own foot off, you
know, as I was a teenager, think

someone's gonna ban you guys, you know,
because you just don't come across well.

They've learned to come across better
subsequently for the most part.

But I do think that the breed
itself, the tradition and all of

that is something worth preserving.

I do.

And I don't think there's anything
wrong with having that as also one

of the reasons that you're coming
to this, because like I say, I

didn't, I didn't get into equine
assisted work because I wanted to.

I got into it.

'cause I had to.

And then I decided, well, if I'm in,
I might as well try to get good at it.

So why do you feel the thoroughbred
itself might be under threat?

And what can we do to help with that?

Because I could see with that then we
could also start looking at breeding.

As you said, for other qualities as
well that are not just speed, so,

so why do you feel the thoroughbred
needs protecting at this point?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I think it needs
protecting from the racing industry.

Okay.

It's the racing industry that's
under attack and when you have

even be it just one horse that
ends up in distress circumstances.

Mm-hmm.

One horse, too many no horses
should fall through the net when

they've retired from racing.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And to me,
equine assisted services seemed

like a perfect symbiotic fit.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I feel that it's a
win-win situation for the equine assisted

world and for the thoroughbred world.

It's an opportunity for the thoroughbred
world to give back to society in a very

meaningful way and make a difference.

And I think it's for the equine assisted
world, it's a way of, as we said

before, getting exposure and moving
things along and getting equine therapy

to a place where it's recognized by
all governments around the world.

And funded,

Rupert Isaacson: funded
is, is the key word there.

The, the thoroughbred industry is a
multi-billion dollar industry, but they

are not known outside of certain programs
for giving money to therapeutic programs.

I said they're not known for it.

I didn't say it doesn't happen.

Right.

And.

How can we address that problem?

Because right now it would offend
anybody's sense of justice to see millions

and millions of these horses being bred,
tons of money being made on them, them

being sort of discarded, and then when
they come into their after lives, if,

when they're lucky enough to do that,
the people who take those on, whether

it's for therapy or for repurposing
them as leisure horses in some way

or other, are not necessarily having
any financial support to do that from

the industry that has discarded them.

Now, I know that's not the
entirely accurate picture.

Can you correct me
where I'm wrong on that?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well,
there's something drastically

wrong with that picture.

Rupert Isaacson: Good.

I'm relieved

Suzi Prichard-Jones: every
level that you, you look at it.

Okay.

And a hundred percent right.

As we referred to earlier,
the landscape has changed.

We've gone from owner breeders to
individual owners and syndicates, and

so the land is not there to put them on.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: In the last 20 years,
we've seen attempts by the thoroughbred

industry to create organizations to filter
horses coming from the racetrack to put

them into competitive equestrian sports
to put them into leisure and trail riding.

We have some prison programs
which are absolutely amazing.

Run by the Thoroughbred Retirement
Foundation in the States, they

have eight as far as I know.

Rupert Isaacson: Great.

When the thoroughbreds retire,
they get to go to jail.

I'm just kidding.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Oh no.

Rupert This's the most amazing thing.

We have one in Ireland at re was
the first equine program in a prison

in Europe, and now I think there
are two, if not three in England.

But if you, and are

Rupert Isaacson: they using those,
by the way, for therapy or are they

repurposing them there to then be
passed on into the leisure industry?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Not, not
necessarily repurposing them.

What they're doing is they are
creating, in most cases it's a six

or 12 week course for the inmates.

Okay.

And they come and they just handle
the horses, they lead them out,

they pick their feet, they groom
them if they need medical attention,

wrapping bandages, things like that.

They come out of it with a certificate.

So it gives 'em a skillset.

Okay.

And that's where I wanted to talk
to you further because I think

we ought to have your wonderful

Rupert Isaacson: I'm in,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: in hand in, I'm

Rupert Isaacson: in

Suzi Prichard-Jones: all prisons.

But that's something I'm
advocating for at the moment.

And if you think about the horses
in prison, think about the prisoner

who's emotionally shut down physically
shut down in that he's devoid of one

of your five senses, which is touch.

And when you actually get to touch a
horse, if you've been devoid of touch

and you've deprived of it, that's huge.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Physiological
and emotional level that Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: well,
oxytocin, absolutely serotonin.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: That is huge.

What they most people say, I've talked
to a couple of people who've run the

programs and I say, well, if, is there
a word that you, one word to describe.

And John Evans, who ran the Lowell Prison
Program for 18 years, said, miraculous.

No other word for it.

The effect.

Robert Hall Newcastle.

Ray in Ireland said, empathy and hope.

Business.

Hope.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Social functionality.

Horses are also social animals.

Right.

They demonstrate to us what healthy
socialization actually looks like.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

developed in conjunction with Dr.

Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Okay.

How much does it cost to run
that prison program per year?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: That, I don't know.

The, the TRF.

Provide the horses the
prison service provide ERF

Rupert Isaacson: stands for

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Thorough
Retirement Foundation in the state,

Rupert Isaacson: which is run by,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: which is
run by the TRF, the Thoroughbred

Retirement Foundation.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: An
organization foundation.

And

Rupert Isaacson: where do
they get their money from?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: They like
everything they fundraise.

Rupert Isaacson: So this is my point.

So for example, we, we talked about
one of our Good Horse Boy programs.

It's in one of our best, it's, it's
in California Square Peg Foundation.

Joel, who runs it, came up through
the racing industry, as you know, was

a 16-year-old single mom of a special
needs kid, making her living as an

exercise rider in the very, very tough
world of the American race tracks.

And, you know, she's now
graduated to having, you know,

this incredible, organization.

Everyone who's listening, if you
dunno, square Peg Foundation, look

it up now and check out what they do.

'cause it's amazing.

And she does get grants from
the OTTB, the Off the Track

Thoroughbred what's the B for?

Oh, off track TB Thoroughbred Yeah.

Association in the USA.

And they do give to her relatively
significantly in terms of the date, you

know, the yearly budget that she has.

But I'm looking how, I just Googled
while you, you were chatting.

So I wanted to say, what, how much
does the racing industry generate?

So the first thing that comes up in
Google for now, it's 127 billion.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well, right.

So

Rupert Isaacson: if that, yeah.

If that is indeed true.

And, you know, who knows?

Just 'cause Google says it's
true, doesn't mean it's true.

But let's say it's, you know,
significant amount of dos.

Well, I haven't seen any and
when I've gone and done now

that's not entirely true.

But it can appear that way because my
program, okay, it's not my program, but

a program that I've trained over there in
California, it is supported then Le Skin.

It has definitely been supported by
people within the racing industry.

That's it.

David Dole's amazing place in
counting Limerick and so on and so on.

So it's not true that there is no support
and some of that support has been quite

significant, but there isn't a sort of
recognizable institutional thing yet.

You know, where the racing industry
somehow as a whole comes together and

says, okay, out of this 127 billion
or whatever it is, we are going to

create a 5% budget or a 10% budget
to look after to do the right thing.

That has not yet.

Leapt into the public consciousness.

It is happening here and there for sure.

And where it is we need to give
credit where credit is due, and

that's what I'm trying to do.

But nonetheless, the
perception is not that.

And what can we do, you know, when
there's that kind of money around, you

know, it does just beg the question,
why on earth aren't we seeing really

significant, noticeable in the public
consciousness kind of, support that way.

And that could be, as you
say, simply because it's taken

a while just to catch up.

But now that we are having this
conversation, people like you within the

industry are having this conversation with
each other as well as with people like me.

What do you think the plan for that
is because of, you know, that that's,

from an outsider's perspective, that's
just the logical question to us.

I got a lot of dos.

Let's see it.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I think there's,
there's two sections to that question.

The first is the aftercare situation, and
we talked about changing landscape and the

industry being somewhat on the back foot.

so they're catch they're playing catch up.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: What happened was
you had some philanthropic individuals

who looked at the situation, said,
right, this is what we need to do,

and they set up the Thoroughbred
Retirement Foundation one day.

Then they set up the Thoroughbred
Charities of America.

Then Jack will set up
Thoroughbred Aftercare Alliance.

Those are the three biggies.

And they give out, all three
of them, give out two of them

give out grants every year.

The TAA accredit, different
REHOMING facilities.

So that's working.

What, what went wrong there is, it
wasn't one of our so-called institutions

such as the Jockey Club that said,
or a main body, like the Thoroughbred

Owners and Breeders Association.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Said,
right, this is an issue.

We need to take care of this.

No, it was about five individuals
who did this off their own

backs and set organizations up.

And then everybody else said, oh,
well, you know, it's all taken care of.

That's one aspect.

So.

What I'm trying to do now, because I,
I have absolutely zero affiliation to

anybody and I'm totally independent, is
I go and shake the trees and say, you

need to do this, you need to do that.

One of the, the big issues I ran into
was, yes, if we give money, where's

it going to, where's the money going?

Where's

Rupert Isaacson: the accountability?

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And it just struck me
about when I was at Kentucky a couple of

weeks ago and I went, that's what's wrong.

We've got to build a structure first
that's totally transparent so people

can see where the money's going to.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And
it's got to be the jock.

How

Rupert Isaacson: do we do that?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: The Jockey Club
has to be the umbrella organization that

receives the funds and distributes the

Rupert Isaacson: fund.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: You keep
all the other layers in place.

So that's the first part of your question.

The second part of your
question is more interesting.

I've grown up in this industry.

It was only when I saw the i a video.

When was that?

2019 perhaps that they made
that they went to normal.

Something

Rupert Isaacson: like that.

Yeah.

Relatively recent.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It was only then that
this whole world of EAS came on my radar.

I didn't know anything
about what you were doing.

I didn't know what anybody was doing.

I knew about the RDA
writing for the disabled.

I used to in my twenties.

I volunteered with that,
so I knew about that.

They don't know is, is the short answer.

And when I took, I, I
spent the last few years.

Around doing a lot of research
and finding out the different

places that are providing EAS.

And I talk to various people
and I go, do you know soa?

And they go, no.

And I go, well, they're doing the
same thing that you are doing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
You need to talk to soa.

Who's that?

And it's a bit like the
thoroughbred aftercare field.

A lot of these are sole practitioners.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
They have this concept.

They bring the concept to
fruition that takes energy.

Then they have to run it on a daily basis.

Absolutely.

That fundraise it because
where's the money coming from?

Because they've now
about run outta of money.

So that takes so much more energy
and you come to them and say,

you need to talk to so and so.

They're just trying to keep
their head above water.

Yeah.

And they don't have the energy.

They may or may not have the skillset
to take it to the next level.

So you see that in the aftercare
situation with all these, so

people, individual people who are
doing rescue, running rescue farms.

And you see it in the equine
assisted therapy world.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It's
generally, and the other problem

is it's generally all women.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: When you

Rupert Isaacson: can,
why is that a problem?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Because you are going
into an environment in, certainly in the

racing world and in, for a large part in
the corporate world that's male dominated.

And somebody said to me during the
summer that he'd mentioned the RDA

writing for the disabled, and this
colleague of his turned round and went.

Ah, yeah.

You mean women of a certain
age leading the pony from the

coffee shop to the hairdresser?

Yes.

And that's the thing, it's like
you're a silly, sentimental woman.

That's what women do, but we're
businessmen, so you have to bring

it into their world and say, Hey,
you know, this is important stuff.

We've got a mental health
crisis in the western world.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: The racing industry,
you have a social license that you

better buck up and pay attention.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And you also, by the way, also
have a bunch of lost boy sons.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Grandsons

Rupert Isaacson: and
nephews who need this help.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You know what's
so interesting is that when I've

been at shindigs of upper levels
of the horse sport world could be,

you know, not necessarily racing
necessarily, but a lot of them, when

you actually get talking to people.

You find out that so many of
them individually in their

families have something going on.

But they of course, are very
private and they're, the old

school was also not to complain.

And the old old school was
to put 'em way out of sight.

And so given that the horse industry
is an old, old school thing it's

not surprising that the ethic of we
don't really want to look at it and

we don't really want to deal with
it, is still to some degree there.

But I do think that that tip, I
think we've reached a tipping point.

I think that that has tipped over now.

And equally when you said, you know,
the corporate world and the racing

world is largely male, we also know
that that is changing and changing

quite rapidly actually, particularly
on the business side of things that,

that the corporate world is changing.

From the bottom up, just because the sheer
number of people going into the corporate

world now is, is more female than male.

At, at the younger, at the younger
because they're the ones who

are doing better at university.

So, but we don't wanna hang
around for that change.

And it doesn't mean that just because the
men at the top may eventually get replaced

by women at the top, that they shouldn't
do the right thing while they're there.

So it is interesting to me, this thing
that you say of, of when people present

themselves as well, I'm a businessman.

Why should I care about that?

That, that's never made any sense to me.

It was like, well, whether you're a
businessman or a street sweeper or a

priest or a, I don't know, whatever
you are, you're a human being alive on

planet earth, you'll be dead some, and,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: it's this thing

Rupert Isaacson: called
the Golden Rule, right?

Why not do some good if you can?

Yeah,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: no, I'm on my track.

I have my title, my position.

Yeah.

I'm making money.

This is, do you know what I'm worth?

You know?

Do you see?

Yeah, yeah, sure.

I think that's, these are my priorities.

Don't have some woman come
to me about, you know, ponies

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And mental health

Rupert Isaacson: or some idiot
hippie, you know, like me.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So there's
that mentality, but life comes

at us all and it doesn't care.

You know, what you drive or
who you are or, you know, yeah.

We come to the, we come to the part.

All of us at some point in
life come to the part where we

have to say, uncle, don't we?

We sort of rot back on our hos.

And Indeed and you, you get a
quick life lesson and you've got

to get your priorities suited.

I think we just have a huge
opportunity here with the right,

Rupert Isaacson: so, so let's talk about
what needs to happen on quote unquote your

end, which is the industry end and what
quote needs to happen on quote unquote

our end, which is the practitioner side.

So you mentioned, let's get
start with your end first.

So you mentioned the jockey club.

Right.

Who currently, to my knowledge, do
not have some easy to find really big

philanthropic thing for equine assisted
work combined with thoroughbred aftercare.

Unless I'm wrong and
I could well be wrong.

So what do we need to do for
them to get them to buck up?

That's the first thing.

And then let's talk after that about
what we need with people like me so that

we can buck up to meet that challenge.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It comes down
to structure with it, I think.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: When I first started
to look at the equine assisted world.

It was just so overwhelmingly fragmented.

I couldn't make any sense outta it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It needs
structure and what I see today is

that Horse Boy is an organization
that has created a community.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: You
have three distinct modules.

You have the Horse Boy module, you have
the movement method, and you have kin, and

you have certification in all of those.

I think Hos Boy is the place to start.

I think you have to, if you're talking
about equine assisted services, you have

to be able to put something in front
of somebody and say, there's a book.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: You, you've.

A room full of shelves with things
like this on it, or pull one of

those down and say, this is the book.

So they, they know what it is.

They can touch it, feel it, understand it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

That's what we can do on our end.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: But
one of, one of the things,

Rupert Isaacson: how do we, let's
say, let's say I go with you

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Into a room with the
Jockey Club dudes, and we are like,

all right, we're here to get you guys
to do the right thing effectively.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Now
you've gotta show them,

Rupert Isaacson: well, okay, fine.

But nonetheless, there has to be, we will
of course do our damnedest to do that

at the same time, of course there
needs to be a certain will on the

end of the people of the Jockey Club
folks, the people you're going into the

room with, to be somewhat be disposed
to do something other than say no.

And.

Of course one would think,
well that's just a human thing.

Of course they would want to
support this type of thing 'cause

it's the right thing to do.

But no.

So what do we need to do to change the
culture within, say, the Jockey Club to

be predisposed to act philanthropically

Suzi Prichard-Jones: towards
equine assisted services?

Rupert Isaacson: In this particular case?

Yes.

Because I guess you could, you could say
that the, that's actually a good point

that you make because you could say that
the injured jockey fund has been doing

that philanthropically for generations.

And they do do quite a lot of work
to try to look after they're humans.

It's now just the next stage.

How do we, yeah.

How does one affect that culture?

I, I totally take your point.

That one needs to go in there with
a good structure and all of that

stuff, but if there isn't a basic
predisposition to do the right thing.

No matter how good your structures
are, you're dealing with someone

who really doesn't want to
hear what you've gotta say.

So that's a cultural thing.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It it's not so
much culture as an educational thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

How do you separate the two?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I
promise you they don't know.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Nobody knows
about equine assisted services,

Rupert Isaacson: so we need to go talk.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: People in the racing
industry, equine assisted services,

they look at me and they pause for
a moment and then they go, ah, you

mean writing for the disabled, right?

I go, yeah, but it's
so much more than that.

So that's where the equine assisted world
has not, you haven't gotten your message

out to explain to people this Yeah.

Doing, this is the science behind it.

Do you know how long it took me to
find this amazing person called Rupert

Isaacson, who was standing on a video
with a video by a whiteboard, drawing out

little stick man and showing oxytocin and
cortisol and the Kinsey cells and beating.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: you're good.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: That
took me forever to find.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Well, I'll tell you why it took
you forever to find, because

Suzi Prichard-Jones: when

Rupert Isaacson: the Jockey Club
doesn't give me a million bucks a

year to go out and publicize it.

And so the difficulty is
that we do what we can.

Right?

So we, we do put stuff out on YouTube
and we do, but if we were to do like

an actual publicity campaign, we would
need that funded and we'd have to,

we would have to quo, we would have
to justify why we are using that.

To fly our flag rather
than to do the work.

So up until now, because you know, let's
say we've been around for 20 years,

what we've tended to spend our money
on when we've fundraised is services

servicing people and helping new
places get started and giving grants to

those new places and so on and so on.

Because that's where the need is.

If you're in my position, I'm a dad, you
know, if I'm choosing to spend this dollar

here to educate people, even though I know
long term we need to, and here to serve

this family who's in crisis, well I know
where I'm gonna spend that, that dollar.

So that is of course, exactly what
the equine assisted world needs from

the more established entity is the
money to go out and do that education.

'cause it's not just to
the horse industry, it's to

government and to government.

Yeah.

Regulatory bodies and so forth.

Insurance companies,
you know, all of that.

So I, I'm, I'm with you.

It's just that, as you said, you answered
that point earlier where you said, well,

people are so busy kind of doing what
they're doing and bootstrapping it.

And you know, like for if I go to
talk to the Jockey Club, for example,

let's say we actually do that, which
means you say Rupert at two o'clock on

Tuesday, there's something of something.

We are going to go and have this meeting
in Virginia or Ireland or Kentucky

or new Market or wherever, right?

So I will then have to get
my butt on a plane, go there.

It's gonna cost me a minimum of 2K to
just go there and make my case minimum.

That's before we've even
talked about, I don't know.

Maybe doing two or three more
places because then you say,

okay, well now we're on the road.

Maybe actually we should also go to
the French and we should also go to

the Irish and dah, dah, dah, dah.

So now it becomes 5K, six K

Suzi Prichard-Jones: and
nothing will have happened

Rupert Isaacson: and the day,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: nothing.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And those, and it's
not like the organization has said,

Hey, we, we've heard about you.

This is great.

Here's six K, come and talk to us.

Right.

So I'm not saying we can't
get around this issue.

I'm just exploring the practicalities
of how do we strategize this?

You are sitting there
within the racing industry.

I'm sitting here with a product that
works for the racing industry and for the

Suzi Prichard-Jones: humanity.

Rupert Isaacson: We would
get served by the thorough.

So how do we reach 'em?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well, I think
what you, you have to remember

is the equine assisted service
industry is a new industry.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So you are
doing what you would do in any new

industry is you are working the
grassroots, you are making your family.

Absolutely.

And that's where you have to spend
your time and energy and money.

And you've been doing that
for the last 20, 25 years.

Am I right?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Not to mention bring my
own son up, you know?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Which is
a certain thing as well.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And I met Rowan
at tribe in this August and he's

the most lovely, lovely young man.

And he's got a beautiful speaking voice.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

He does

Suzi Prichard-Jones: most
gorgeous speaking voice.

And I came away from that
and I thought, oh my God.

Rupert was told that, you know, when he
was, what, three and a half that this is?

Yeah.

That's it.

We can't do anymore from you on your own.

And the same that with
David Doyle's daughter.

Take her home and love her.

And I thought about
Rowan and he's a big boy.

He's a big man.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And he's strong.

Yeah.

A gentle giant.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And

Suzi Prichard-Jones: had Rupert
not gone on this journey and been

curious and inquisitive and you
know, just to tenacious about, you

know, finding a way through this and
finding Temple Brandon Rowan would

be a young man now who was nonverbal.

Can you imagine how frustrated
and how angry he would be?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I mean, it's
a totally different scenario.

Those are the sort of
stories that you need to

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: To people.

Something that gets them.

I think what you do is yes, you
poke away at the Jockey Club.

I can do that and it's
not costing me anything.

'Cause I'm in the States, but I think what
what you do is you start to educate the

racing community and you find people who
have connections to autistic children.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And it's,
you know, the incidence of

autism now is, it's pretty high.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: and I was just
reading something this morning about

how they're saying I think it's Robert
Kennedy saying this, that one in

Rupert Isaacson: 12,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: That Tylenol
pregnant women who took Tylenol,

that's what causes autism.

So, it, anyway, there's there's a
large incidence of, of autistic.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

There is, whatever you think
of what the causes are.

It went from one in 10,000
to one under one in 20.

In 30 years, something has happened.

Yes.

But where I come in is, whatever has
happened, we can do something about it.

That's neuroplasticity.

We can rebuild brains.

We know this.

And you can do it with strokes, you can
do it with traumatic brain injuries.

You can do it, and we can certainly do
it with regressive autism, because that,

that's often what we're seeing is kids
that were developing somewhat normally and

at some point they took some sort of hit.

Now it's too controversial to go
into what that hit might have been.

And also from my point of view,
almost irrelevant because I'm

dealing with the aftermath.

And what we find is that Well,
yeah, actually we can do a lot.

So I'm, I'm with you and of course
I'm playing devil's advocate

against myself here because
horse boy currently is in Berlin.

Talking to the to the, the Bundestag,
the, the, the German parliament you

met the amazing Henrik and Giddy
Bergoff and their son Julian in,

in the wheelchair and their story.

And spotter alert lads.

I just yesterday did a, a
podcast with Giddy Burko.

You, you need to listen to that one..

And so they're, they're, they're,
and David Doyle is with them.

So David Dole has flown from
Ireland and they are talking

to the, the German Parliament
about getting state funding for.

Horse boy movement method and
other, not just us, but all

sorts of equine assisted things.

And this builds on the back of
what David DOL has already done

in Ireland, getting those programs
supported by government there.

So I'm playing devil's
advocate against myself.

We have actually been doing this kind of
thing, and of course, as you know, Joel

Dunlap from Square Peg in California
is, has been in Kentucky several times.

She is working on that level.

And I also know that you are
getting something together up your

sleeve at the Cura in Ireland.

Somewhere in the next 12 months or so.

We'll all be there and
I'll get my ass there.

Of course.

So, you know, but I think the reason
why I'm asking you these questions and

having you answer them on this podcast
is because I'm, I'm throwing this out now

to you, the listeners and the viewers.

You can't, we can't.

Expect people to know what
we do if we don't tell 'em.

So for every single one of you that
is out there doing that good work

and you are all out there doing this
good work, put the bugger on YouTube

Suzi Prichard-Jones: just a,
just a short little YouTube film.

It can be 60 seconds.

Anything Rupert that convey
exactly what you're doing.

Rupert Isaacson: And
don't worry if it's crap,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: doesn't matter

Rupert Isaacson: because
then you'll do another one.

Yeah.

And it will be better and you'll do
another one and it will be better.

And Eve also really good is
your higher functioning artists.

Get them to make little films
about you and put it out there.

But what we can't, I love
the Irish term giving out.

We can't give out, we can't complain.

If we are not, so we, I, I asked
those challenging questions to Susie

just now saying, well, what can the
thoroughbred industry do for us?

And well, we know they can give us money
and we need to go in there and tell them

why they should and what they should do.

But where she's right is they
need also to hear from us.

So what about open letters?

What about you know, campaigns of I dunno
why my brain is blanking on the word, when

everyone signs their name to something.

Yeah, petition.

Thank you.

Good lord.

I need another cup of tea.

Clearly, you know, all of
these things make a difference.

And also reaching out
to your local racetrack.

So we talked about David Doyle.

He came out with a really good idea in
Ireland, which is to go to individual

race courses, which stand Id.

In between race meetings and they
have these amazing facilities

and they're actually looking
for reasons to be relevant.

So they do, you know, stag parties
and they do this and they do that.

He went to them and said, what about
equine assisted work happening in

these places in between race meetings?

And they went, that's a good idea.

So back in the spring of this year, I
found myself at Limerick Race Course

with David Doe with a whole bunch of
autistic riders in jockey silks on

thoroughbreds where we began, which were
donation thoroughbreds at the racetrack.

And this was really interesting to me
because they were then being taken back

to their old world, these thoroughbreds
now with very vulnerable riders on them

and parading in the you know, the warmup
area as if they were about to go and race.

And we were on TV and everyone was being
interviewed and we're talking about why

this is important, this great that they
absolutely stepped up and supported us.

And I was thinking in the back of my mind,

will there be any kind of return
to previous pre therapy behavior?

This will be an interesting ex Well,
there wasn't the, the retraining was

so effective and so thorough that
even when these thoroughbreds were

put back centrally, not just in the,
in the location where they had been

getting ready to race, but the rider
is now wearing jockey silks and boots

and all that, and don't think that
horses don't notice that sort of thing.

Of course they do.

And yet not a foot put wrong.

They could not have been better
ambassadors for their own breed,

you know, it was extraordinary.

They have.

Had

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
vulnerable children on that.

Indeed.

Rupert Isaacson: Very,
very vulnerable passengers.

Oh.

So if you are an equine assisted outfit,
is there anything stopping you from a,

approaching your own local race course?

Remember that these are individual
businesses that are run.

Is there anything from stopping you from
approaching your local hunt and their

point to point meeting, which they have
every year, there's nothing stopping you.

And don't worry if they say no.

If they say no, go to the next one.

I've generally found that
there's a, a three no rule.

People will say no three times
and then they realize that

you're just not gonna go away.

And then they're like, all right, fine.

You know, just to shut you up.

And then they realize, oh, actually we
come out of this looking quite good.

You know what I mean?

So

Suzi Prichard-Jones: a little
booth, have a little table there.

With some flies, some toys or whatever.

Something to just, something to bring them
in and just tell them what you're doing.

Because I promise you, people in the
racing industry do not know what's

happening in the equine assisted world.

It's a relatively new area, and
everybody today has got their

head down in the road mm-hmm.

Field.

And they're not looking over the hedge
unless you get an idiot like me who's

just like, what's happening over there?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, curiosity.

Thank God for it.

Okay.

I'm optimistic.

I I think you're gonna do it, Susie.

I think that you are going to be the
catalyst that makes that difference.

I, I met you, I hung out with
you in kil Coon, and I thought,

oh, this woman is a force.

You didn't have to show
up to our tribe day,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: but
you wouldn't keep me away.

Rupert Isaacson: But you had
other things in your life to do.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I show up everywhere.

Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

You know, and you live between different
spots and all of this, and you made time.

You took time, and you
didn't just show up alone.

You, you brought a couple of interested
parties and you showcased us.

Yeah.

You didn't need to do that.

So I'm both grateful and very optimistic
because I know talent when I see it, and

you're clearly gonna get the job done.

And rising tide lifts all boats.

So yes, we'll spoil will be in there
doing the things that you do, but we

will be turning around to lots of other
programs and saying, come along with us.

Let's not sit in our own silos.

And certainly let's not, horse boy
won't be trying to like, hold the money

from the racing industry to itself.

Quite the opposite.

What I would like to do is work on setting
up funds that are just purely merit-based

across the equine assisted field because.

What we do as you know, is, is fairly
specific in terms of, you know,

neuroplasticity, but there's all kinds
of other programs out there as well.

You mentioned the prison
ones and Horseback uk.

What they do, you know, there,
there's a bunch out there.

I, I would like to be a catalyst in
making sure that everybody gets served.

So I do think when we have you on
again next year to give the report

on what the progress has been with
the Jockey Club, I think you're

going to be reporting progress.

There's something else I
want to ask you about there.

Do you remember a bit earlier in
this conversation, I said you got

into this as much because you wanted
to protect the thoroughbred horse

as to help people like my son.

And I think that that's perfectly
valid and honest and good.

Tell me why the thoroughbred itself.

In terms of its bloodlines is a
little bit vulnerable right now.

This was really interesting to me.

I didn't know this
until you told it to me.

We tend to think of
thoroughbreds as like this thing.

It's been there forever.

It'll always be there.

Not so much perhaps it seems.

Tell me what it is and why you care.

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
Could, can I divert you?

Very, very, it won't be for long.

With horse boy, your three
modalities, the Hakeem in hand

dressage work that you do Yeah.

Passes into collection
and balance for horse boy.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: They can create
those big rocking motions that will rock

the children's hips and create oxytocin.

Yeah.

I saw Terry Brosnan demonstrate

Rupert Isaacson: she runs
the horse by place at Hillco.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And
a light bulb went off.

'Cause she said we get them
to cross over the midline.

Yeah.

What is coming over the midline
horses, thoroughbred horses

certainly don't do that ever.

And it suddenly occurred to me, my
God, every yearling that has been

started needs to do this work.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: How to cross
over the midline Because I can't tell

you how many two year olds and older
horses I've ridden that will try to

buck and you go, God, don't do that.

You idiot.

You're going to fall down because
they dunno where their feet are,

their front feet are, and they
end up going a over t kettle.

Not only does it give them the
body awareness and where their

feet are, are, it creates balance.

It puts, it

Rupert Isaacson: creates
neuroplasticity in the horse

Suzi Prichard-Jones: and posture and
it creates neuroplasticity in the

horse because it's left, right brain.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

They can think.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And it
brings 'em into collection.

But even more than that,
it gives 'em confidence.

So to me, if you were to do
this with a yearling before

you're, as you're starting him,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

You are

Suzi Prichard-Jones: getting a
much more balanced, collected horse

that knows where his body, where
his feet are, where his body is.

You're gonna end up with a sand horse,

Rupert Isaacson: a hundred

Suzi Prichard-Jones: hundred,

Rupert Isaacson: and you can
actually rehab the injuries this way

too, because it's like a yoga and

Suzi Prichard-Jones: it
then sets them up for.

Further career options.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Because you put the building blocks
in for the jumping and the dressage

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

That

Rupert Isaacson: they might need later,
which is just about balancing yourself.

You've set that up for them.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

You do.

I think to Keen is the bridge
into the thoroughbred world.

Yeah.

And Friday, Terry Brosnan is very
kindly going to come down to Jesse

Harrington's in common stand, and she's
going to teach my three-year-old Okay.

In the indoor school.

Okay.

And I'm hoping that I, we can show it to
Jesse and she'll see the results of that.

Now,

Rupert Isaacson: who is Jesse Harrington?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Jesse Harrington
is Alan's national treasure.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: She

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
is a racehorse trainer.

She was a very successful
steeplechase trainer.

She was on the Olympic three day team.

And she's a very successful flat
horse trainer, and she's one of

the larger trainers in Ireland and
just an exceptional human being.

And I'm lucky enough to have my
horse and some other horses down.

Okay.

Said yes.

Yes, that'll be fine.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, wonderful.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So what
I'd like to see is I would like

to see the thoroughbred world
endorsing the keen method.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: I, I agree with you.

That's where the, that's
where the crossover is.

Because it serves the
horse as much as it serves.

Human.

And just for those listeners who are
not familiar, 'cause not everyone

who listens to this knows what our
programs are takin, T-A-K-H-I-N is the

in-hand work lunging and long reigning.

So it's not ridden as no ridden work
where you teach the horse all the

dressy stuff and the strengthening
and the suckling that they would

need to know to do the dressage.

You use this as its own therapy to
prepare, maintain and rehab horses.

But of course we then get autistic
people, veterans service users of

any kind to be the trainers that do
the work so that it, it's a sort of

circular, holistic, win win, win thing.

And then also for the people
who run the, the program.

Any of you who are running programs,
you know how stressed you are

because you don't have enough time
to condition and maintain your horses

because you've just got so many
clients coming through the door.

Well, what TA Keen does is it makes
those conditioning sessions the

session that you do with your client.

So instead of trying to separate out that
time and be in stress and time conflict,

you have no time conflict anymore.

So, yes, I, I, I agree.

And so much of that work, if you do
it very early, 'cause the horse isn't

bearing any weight because you can
introduce all the lateral work, you

can introduce the pf, you can introduce
all these things without, in any

way negatively affecting the horse
because there is no weight being born.

So I'm very, very pleased to hear
that that's about to happen and

a bit nervous and 'cause now the
pressure's on to do a good job.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: But going to set them
up to be sound or horses in the long run.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Knows,
knows where his body is, his

feet are and they're balanced.

That's half the battle.

Rupert Isaacson: It is.

And this brings me to your book.

Okay.

So, I asked you, so you, you diverted me
from my question about why is the third

Red Horse itself vulnerable at the moment?

So you wrote a book called The Biley Turk.

Right.

And one of the reasons why I find the
Biley Turk an interesting historical place

to put one's focus as a horse person and
a therapy person is because that story

of, so the Barley Turk being one of the
foundation stallions of the Thoroughbreds

what often isn't known is that this was
a warhorse, so it was acquired somehow

at the siege of Vienna, I think, was it?

Or.

A Buddha.

Yeah.

So when the, when the Ottomans were trying
to take over Europe and remember they got

as far as Vienna and all of the European
powers had to suddenly stop punching

each other up and go, hold on a second.

Hold on, hold on, hold
on, hold on, hold on.

If we don't like get our shit together
for at least five years, these guys

are just gonna take it all from
us and it will all be irrelevant.

So maybe, maybe we should cooperate here.

So they did.

And at the end of the 17th century,
they, you know, managed to secure

Europe from the Ottoman threat, but
it was not done without great effort.

And in these coalitions of military
that came together to do this, many of

those European co countries when they
were reorganizing their military at

that time had Irish contingents because
the Anglo-Irish nobility and the Irish.

Poor peasants often sold
themselves as mercenaries.

It was one of the ways that they
made a living and they all had a

sort of fighting spirit, and they
were great horsemen and so on.

So they went and made a few Bob
fighting for the Germans or fighting

for the Austrians or this or that or
the other as, as well as obviously

for the Brits from time to time.

And so there's this chap, he biley,
he shows up at this siege and

he somehow acquires this horse.

And there's all these different
stories right about did he buy it,

did he nick it, did he exchange?

It was, you know, was it gifted?

Whatever happens, he
brings this thing home.

And we talked about racing, having
started with the step cultures.

The Turman horse is of course
one of the purest throwbacks

to that early step culture.

And it's both a dressage
horse and a racing horse.

And it is still to this
day, Turk and horses.

Rock, they're rad, they're fantastic.

I know people who've got them and they're
brilliant because they have all the

fire, but they have all the nos as well.

And you can use them in multiple purposes.

They just don't grow terribly big.

So you're probably not gonna jump a meter
60 on them if you're a big-ish human.

But nonetheless, they are a
really versatile, so of course the

ancestor of the modern, no, this
bloke brings it home to Ireland.

And guess what?

It shows up at another battle.

The battle that basically decides
that England is gonna be England.

The Battle of the Boyne, which
weirdly and confusingly is fought

in Ireland because it ends up
being a Protestant Catholic thing.

And I could go into why that happened
in one of my more boring old dead dudes.

His history of dress thing.

I think I will, but suffice
to say, but relatively

Suzi Prichard-Jones: little bloodshed
in England, but a lot in, in Ireland.

Indeed,

Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

We like to do our proxy war.

Yeah.

But also to be fair,
you know, anytime that.

France or someone else wanted to mess
with England, you'd do it through

the back door of Scotland or Ireland,
bite him in the butt, you know, and

then that would turn our attention
over there, and then you could do

naughty things to us somewhere else.

And this of course is one of those
big, but this was a decisive battle in

terms of European of British history
because it basically decided would we

be Protestant or would we be Catholic?

And the Protestants win, and Bali
is on the winning side, I believe.

And then so this horse before
it becomes a race horse.

So we think of, we think of thoroughbreds,
as you said, as they don't cross

the midline, they just go zoom.

But at least one of their ancestors
was crossing the midline a lot.

Because if you fight hand to hand on
a horse, you use the tacking system.

The ting system that we are talking about
was originally created for three things.

I'm talking thousands of years ago, not by
me Ru but Isaacson, it was to, to put your

horse able to move in three dimensions.

Why do you want to do that?

Because you wanna catch cows because
you're a step herder and you live off

cows and goats and sheep, and they
move in three dimensions and try and

run away from you and stop and spin.

And so you've gotta have a horse that
can do the same thing, which means you've

gotta train them to go to the side and
cross the midline and do pirouettes.

Then of course you might go into battle.

'cause I want to Nick Susie's
cows and I've nicked her cows.

I'm riding over there.

Now she's noticed that
I've nicked her cows.

She wants to nick 'em back.

So we have a running fight.

If she's a better horseman than
me, she will win the fight.

So her horses trained for battle in
these stop start spin laterally stuff,

including PFS and other things like that.

And then of course we have a sort of
display fun way of doing it where we

can get together in festivals and PR
about, on our horses looking pretty

to try and impress each other and
sell the semen of our, of our horses.

And this has been going
on for thousands years.

But what's interesting to me is that this
horse, it's the foundation horse of the

zoom, zoom industry was actually three
dimensional spinny, spinny, spinny horse

Suzi Prichard-Jones: that
we've come full circle.

Massage horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Which is lovely.

And the interesting thing, Rupert, is that
the three foundation stars of thorough,

it is rumored that the Barley Turk took
part in a race at down Royal, which.

It's not the down royal race course we
have today, but it's actually on the side

of Dan Patrick with two other horses.

But that is rumored.

The Gido and the Arabian was never ridden.

Rupert Isaacson: Never ridden,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: and the Dali
Arabian came basically as a show horse.

He wasn't raised either.

So, so

Rupert Isaacson: do people just
look at the qualities of these

horses unridden and say, you know
what, we are breeding to them.

What, how did that arise?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It happened
because there were a number of what they

called oriental horses in England in
the 16th century, 16th, 17th century.

And there were in excess of, I've
counted 190 Oriental stallions,

and some of them are quite
prevalent in the early step book.

So the.

Fascinating thing is why
is it only three stallions?

Mm-hmm.

From at least 190, and it comes down
to the three of their descendants who

were a cocktail of the three stallions,
but match and her and ellipse, and that

they either aside from the Dali line
and the Ga dolphin line or the barley.

So it's a combination.

So it's not just the Y chromosome, it's
probably a combination of the mitochondria

and the, the y chromosome that's given us
our, our foundation of the thorough breed.

So it's actually inherent in eclipse.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Now you told me that, and I didn't
know this, that the Bly line

and the good dolphin line are
disappearing from the thoroughbred

Suzi Prichard-Jones: that's gone.

Rupert Isaacson: Why
and why should we care?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well I wrote
the book and then I thought I better

put my money where my mouth was.

So I thought, well, you better
go and sort of read some of these

voices and then maybe somebody
will join you on your little quest.

That hasn't happened yet.

But I was at the sales new market a
couple of years ago and one of Michael

Richard Kent, who had affiliate of mine,
he goes, see why that line hasn't lasted?

He said, because you need time
and, and patience and, and staff.

And he said, Lippi here was trying
to put your Philly on the hot walker,

and she wasn't having any of it.

And I went, what did I tell you?

These horses, you have to ask them.

You cannot tell them what to do.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely

Suzi Prichard-Jones: tell them what to do.

It's game over.

It ain't, it's not happening.

And they don't forget the very,
the two lines are very intelligent,

Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Barley
line is extremely intelligent.

Rupert Isaacson: So you think
people have stopped breeding them

just because they require more,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: they require more
horsemanship and more, I see patients

and they, they tend to be quite hot.

They're on their toes.

They're not bad horses at all.

They're all lovely people, but

Rupert Isaacson: they're sharp.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Don't cross them.

Don't come in telling them
what to do or they, okay.

Different.

They go dolphin, Arabians tend to
be quite bullheaded and they're

tough and they're determined.

And those are two qualities.

The intelligence and, and that
spirit, that high metal that

the barley line has and the.

Toughness and the determination
that the good LP line have.

Those are essential
qualities for race horses.

Rupert Isaacson: So now you say,
okay, so I can understand people

are now trying to cut corners.

They don't want a horse that you have
to work so hard for, so they're trying

to breed to an easier bloodline.

Speak to me as a total rookie.

Why does that even matter?

Like, why, why don't you say,
okay, well fine, breathe that

line out, breed to another line.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well
that's, that's what we're doing.

We've bred to exclusively to the Dali
Arabian line and temperaments a lot

of times are much, much easier than
a Barley Turk temperament by far.

The barleys, you have to treat
little bit like Phillies in

that you've gotta be, so why

Rupert Isaacson: do we
need then the barley line?

Why do we need the good offen line?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: They have
that high metal, they have that

far, they have that courage.

They're all very brave.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Intelligent.

So you need in a racehorse, you
need that far, has the determination

and the toughness you need
that when the chips are down.

Rupert Isaacson: There must also
be an inbreeding issue as well.

I mean, if you, if you start
narrowing down to just one line of

three, surely there's going to be
issues that come up cognitively and

physically eventually, because there
just isn't enough outside blood.

Right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
It hasn't happened yet.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: But will happen in,

Rupert Isaacson: you think it will happen

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
in about 10 years time.

Rupert, every single thorough
red world trace back to a

course of 1913 called Polaris.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: That's
how we've, we've narrowed down

Rupert Isaacson: and, and then
we can end up with what, three?

Three horses with three heads.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Oh.

Probably just horses that are
soft and don't have, yeah.

That will to win, you know,
it'll be a different breed.

I think

Rupert Isaacson: I should imagine too,
physically they, they may not be as tough.

Yeah.

So that, would we see more
injuries on the racetrack?

Would we see more tendons popping?

Would we see more bones breaking?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Maybe
not, you know, I dunno,

Rupert Isaacson: in breeding
in any animal, it's never seems

to be a great idea, right?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Seems to be something to avoid.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: we know with the
dog it's not a good idea, right?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: We've,
we've seen it in dogs, we've

seen it in the English bulldog.

We've seen it in the French Bulldog.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: In Charles
Spaniel, where they've, their

breeding, their, their heads or their
skull is too small for their brains.

And the windpipe is too small.

And

Rupert Isaacson: particularly when I'm
crossing the line over into the horse boy

work, where we're doing the mounted work,
I actually need a bit of a grumpy old.

Slightly dominant type of horse.

I need that because those
horses tend not to spook.

If you, if you go to a horse boy stable,
you'll tend to find a whole bunch of

like dominant grumps because they've
all got that kind of uncle or auntie

brain where they're like, right, that
that's the sort of horse's attitude.

But that is actually what will often
keep you and the child alive when you

are out there and a wild boar jumps
out or someone opens an umbrella

in front of your horse or whatever.

And of course with horse boy, we
need to be out there in the world.

We do not spend all our time in arenas.

Because if you've got autom auto, meaning
the Greek word for the self, if the

problem is I've got selfism, autom, I'm
locked within the self, the difficulty is

the relationship with the exterior world.

Then the last thing I need to do when
I'm working with that person is be

inside some big industrial sterile
shed with sand in it, you know?

That's not the outside world.

If the difficulty is the relationship
with the exterior world, then

that is where we must go.

And in order to do that safely,
I need horses that have a, as you

say, have that courageous spirit.

And sometimes that means, yeah, we
have to work a little harder with

them and we certainly have to work
more in partnership with them.

Like horse boy horses, we
don't tell them what to do.

'cause we're not picking fights.

We can't pick fights.

Like I, if I've got your autistic
child on, I can't pick a fight.

I need my horse to have that
attitude of I'm with you, you

know, I, I can make decisions.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: But when you
have a child on a horse and it's been

coming to you for a few weeks Mm.

Same horse every time.

Do they build a relationship with
the horse, which is different

to a relationship that, a deeper
relationship than they'd have

with another human being or how?

Rupert Isaacson: Well
the answer, go ahead.

Sorry.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: There
has to be that trust element

Rupert Isaacson: there does No, I
mean the answer is both yes and no.

Meaning that not every person, because
we're not just dealing with kids who

comes for our services, is necessarily
massively motivated by horses.

So if we have someone coming in through
the door who their horses are, oh

yeah, yeah, I quite like the horse.

But really I'd prefer other things.

Then as you know, with Horse
Boy and Movement Method and

so on, we're very versatile.

We can follow their interests,
include the horse in that as much

or as little as seems relevant.

But generally over time, because
the horses are around, they're

going to build relationships with
them because they're social animals

that you build relationships with.

And then you get a certain number
of people who are very horse

motivated and will absolutely.

Forge very close and personal
relationships with the horses.

And then within that, there's
another subset who will either

generalize, they love all horses
kind of equally, or some of them

will be no, like, this is my horse.

So we get all of those ranges of
personality type that come through the

door just as we get all these different
ranges of horse personality type, some

of whom love all people, some of whom
only love a couple of people, some

of whom don't really care for people
that much, but hey, you know, and we

will work with them where they are.

So it, you, you get all of the above.

But what we need of course is a
horse that is versatile, who can

be as much or as little horses as
necessary in that particular moment

and has that sort of judgment.

And also we need a horse that
when, you ask him to switch jobs,

can do so in a professional manner
and say, oh, you changed the job.

And not say, well, you changed
the job description on me.

So, you know, not you.

No.

You know, we've all seen
that in certain horses.

Yeah.

That no, we, we look for the, and so
that's where I, it's interesting you talk

about the biley line when you say, if that
line is going, that sort of courageous,

slightly independent, think for itself
line, that rings a bell with me as a,

as a therapeutic practitioner going,
Hmm, we actually need that kind of line.

Because when they come to do the work
with us after their racing career, or

perhaps they're not even bred for racing,
perhaps they're just bred for this.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It's
interesting you say that.

That occurred to me during the summer.

I thought, you know, these horses
actually would be ideally suited.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

And just because it's a thoroughbred,
does it have to be bred for racing?

No.

Right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Because they're,

Rupert Isaacson: would it be interesting,
this would be really interesting to me

would be to identify what's the subset
within the thoroughbreds that are like

the best suited for our kind of work.

Mm-hmm.

And say, well, why can't we, why
can't we just breed those as well?

Like, why does it always have to be a
retired horse or from the racetrack?

Just 'cause it's thoroughbred
doesn't mean it has to race.

Right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Nice thing
about getting them from the

racetrack is that they have, from
conception, they've been handled.

Rupert Isaacson: That's true.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: All come through
basically the same sort of protocol.

Mm-hmm.

Know what you're getting.

You know, that they know how
to go up, you know how they,

they know how to switch leads.

Rupert Isaacson: They know
how to be in a group together.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: They
know how to be in a routine

routine

Rupert Isaacson: and take on a job.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Another
little beef that I've gotten now

is not the place to air it, but

Rupert Isaacson: I hear, oh, go on.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: The horse welfare.

And I keep saying to people, you've
gotta remember, thoroughbreds are

not quite the same as any other
bush brew because they're a hybrid.

They've never been out on
the planes by themselves.

They've always deposited, they've
always been in stalls and yes.

You can turn them out and that, but
they don't necessarily take to being

left out in the, in the elements.

They're very, very much
creatures of, of routine.

Rupert Isaacson: Well also I
think because they come from those

desert lines desert people keep
their horses very close to them.

You know, we all know about the
sort of bedwin idea of you have

the horse in your tent with you.

Of course not every
single one of your horses.

I think they're a bit selective
about which horse they'd bring

in, but nonetheless yeah, yeah.

They're horses that are bred
to be very human focused.

I think that this is very true and I
think this is often not overlooked even,

but sort of, it's not that it's ignored
'cause people don't know, but I think

people have a perception of thorough
is this wild, uncontrolled thing.

Whereas actually, as you say,
no, they're, they're selectively

bred for humanness a bit as well.

People, people ness.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Very much so.

They have a lot of contact with people.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But

Suzi Prichard-Jones: no, it's like
any, any horse, not every horse is

going to be suitable for your work.

Not every company.

Indeed.

And you need your big old cold bloods and
your warm bloods and your hairy pony and

Rupert Isaacson: absolutely

Suzi Prichard-Jones: all of them.

But I, I think the key is letting people
know what's happening in the equine

assisted world and putting the science
behind it, telling them why you are.

The only person that I've found in
the, this area is the horse boy.

People that will actually
tell you this is the science.

And if you've got the science, then you
have buy-in because you have somebody

who has an autistic child and they're
going, oh, it's not just about being

what somebody and putting my child
on a horse and leading him around.

It's about getting his hips to
move and he's releasing oxytocin.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So
something's happening in his body.

It's when he gets in that, that space
with the the horse, the magnetic

field of the horse's heart, is
going to affect my child's heart,

Rupert Isaacson: absolutely

Suzi Prichard-Jones: breathing it.

He's going to learn quite quickly
that he has to somewhat self moderate.

You explain those because when people
hear about equine assisted services,

they think it's putting people with
horses and it's outside and it's nice

and it's healthy and it's good for them.

Tell them why.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

No, I couldn't agree more.

Without the science to, to be fair
to people, why should they support

something that isn't explained?

And it, it's one of my favorite
beefs actually, is when I

hear my own colleagues saying.

Well, you can't really explain
what's, it's just, it's like

it's a miraculous thing.

It's like, no, it's not.

And that's a hard thing to fund it.

That actually is something going
on quite systematically and

physiologically, and it's not that
hard to get your head around it.

Rock your hips, get this feelgood
hormone that calms your nervous system.

That also makes you
communicate, hey, two for one.

And then because you're crossing the
midline all the time, which is solving

problems, your brain produces a protein.

It's called BDNF, brain derived
neurotrophic factor that turns

into a stem cell, which turns
into a neuron, billions of 'em.

So the brain produces more of itself.

And among those neurons is these
things with a funny name, sounds

like a Pokemon character, kinji
cells, and they cover social skills.

So if you do all that stuff
together, you're gonna see change.

That's not a hard thing to learn,
to just wrap off your tongue.

And it's, it's worth, I think.

The while of equine
practitioners to practice that.

Because when we have to advocate for
ourselves, and if, you know, one, one

of my other piece sometimes is when
I'm doing trainings and someone will

say, and I'll say, look, you kind
of actually do need to know this.

You kind of do need to be able to, to
somebody memorize this, or at least put

it up on your wall so you can refer to it.

When people come into your program
and say, why is it working?

It is that thing that diagram up there.

Or when funders come in, they look
at it and say, oh, it's that diagram.

Oh, even better, when the children
and adults that you serve, they

will learn the neuroscience.

You know, my son knew that neuroscience
by the time he was 11, gives them

a user manual to their brain.

It, it, it's a tool.

It, it makes people more
independent to know these things.

And sometimes I get, well,
I'm not interested in science.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: No, no.

You, yeah.

Everybody has to know why.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And especially if
you're gonna put your hand in your pocket.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Have some woman
come to you and say, well, we can't

really explain, it's just that this, this
happens and it's Marvel Simpson Miracle.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

And it's just esoteric and say, well that
sounds grand, but I'm not gonna fund it.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Let me take my coffee
and walk on now, but show them that this

is something that you can replicate.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: The new New Market
Pony Academy, which is at the British

Sourcing Horse racing school in new
Market they run a five day course.

I dunno if you're familiar with it.

I'm

Rupert Isaacson: not.

No.

Tell me about it.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well, they're
in New market at the British Horse

Racing School, and they realize
that there are lots of people in new

market who know nothing about horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: They went
to the elementary schools and

they took out children who
were having trouble in school.

And had some social issues
and different things.

And they've created this five day course.

They have a little classroom and they have
a little book and they have pictures of

dandy brush, body brush who thick, and
you have to write what this one does,

and then how would you muck out a stool?

And they have to do that.

And then they get a tape
measure and a measuring stick.

How many centimeters is 12
two go measure your pony.

How many centimeters is that?

So they're doing math, they're
doing things like that.

And then they have they
take them out in the garden.

They put them on the, the
ponies in the indoor school.

They lead them round
by the end of the week.

Those kids are trotting around there.

I don't Which organization is this?

It's called the New Market Pony Academy.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And it's run by,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: it's, I
think it's back by Go Dolphin.

Actually.

It's Sheikh Mohammed has,
has done an enormous really.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: thank you
for turning me onto this.

I had no idea.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: A British horse
racing school in New Market, and it's run

by a wonderful lady called Penny Taylor.

Rupert Isaacson: Will you connect me?

I would love to have a conversation.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And I think the
Queen might be one of the patrons.

She's certainly been there from beyond

Rupert Isaacson: the grave,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Quin, Camilla.

But,

Rupert Isaacson: but

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Rupert, the
testimonials, I mean, I read some of those

and they just, they bring you to two.

This, there was wonderful girl, I think
it was a little girl, might've been a boy.

And she said, this is my happy place.

How long

Rupert Isaacson: have they
been running the program?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I'd say five years.

Anyway.

Rupert Isaacson: So isn't it interesting
that here's something big going on?

I'd never heard of it until I met you.

Yeah,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I talked to
somebody who's very involved in

racing or whose son is very involved
in racing and she has grandchildren.

New market.

And I said to them, new
market, what's that?

And I go, please tell me.

Tell tell me.

You've never heard of it.

You of all people never heard of it.

Living in new market on the
FA road and did not know.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So once again, this is at the
British Racing School and it's

called the New Market Pony Academy.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Thank you.

And the

Rupert Isaacson: lady running it is

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Penny Taylor.

Rupert Isaacson: Penny Taylor.

This sounds like somebody
we need to be talking to.

Yeah.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: This sounds like
somebody who gets things done

Suzi Prichard-Jones:
and it's backed by Gado.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Wonderful.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: So,
no, it's, it's, it's,

Rupert Isaacson: so there's
something that answered my question.

What, you know, the people that the
well in the establishment of the

racing industry, what are they doing?

Well, there's something they're
doing and I didn't know until

I met you and you told me.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: And that happens,
you know, this is the same old story.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: People in the
equine assisted world don't know what

other people are doing in the sector.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Guilty as charged.

I'm, I'm busy doing my thing.

Yeah.

But that's the point
of this podcast, right?

Is that we exchange information
and we don't just wait till we

meet each other at conferences.

You know,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I need get done.

So, no, it's this, this is great.

And let's, let's rock on.

Let's, all right.

Venue together for next year and let's get
the equine assisted world, well publicized

within the, the racing industry.

And let's see.

So

Rupert Isaacson: let's, let's make a
deal for, for our listeners, Susie and I

will pledge to do this podcast again in
what, a year to 18 months, depending on.

And we will give you a report
of where we've gotten to, and it

will, wherever it is, it will be
further along than where we are now.

The other

Suzi Prichard-Jones: they have that they
started in the last three years by a guy

called Bobby Beavers is Autism and racing.

And they have there's several race
courses around England that are set

up for autistic people and children

Rupert Isaacson: to come and enjoy
the day as a sort of sensory friendly.

Okay, yeah.

Talk to them too.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Where I live
in Ireland, down the road is Mooth,

which you're from, and it has a
big sign as you come into Mooth

and it says Autism Friendly Town.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And that, of course,
Mooth is right where Kil CL is,

which is our horse boy center there.

But it's, it's okay.

So, but these are good
initiatives, but I'm still not

hearing the word Jockey Club.

So that's what we need to do, is
we can, you know, we need to go

to them and say, you know, lances,
it's not just people like Horse Boy.

You've got stuff within your own
industry that ready to go to support

Suzi Prichard-Jones: and the.

Within the industry, Rupert,
that you can get on this bus?

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Show them
and make them aware of it.

Okay.

You've got a bus moving forwards.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

Sold.

I'll be there.

Set up the gig.

I'll show up.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Put
pressure on the establishment.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Deal.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: I found Alright then.

Should

Rupert Isaacson: we wrap it up there then?

But before, before you go there, some
people will want to know your book.

Tell us the, the, the, the title
again and where they can get it.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: It's outta print so

Rupert Isaacson: Best books always are,

Suzi Prichard-Jones: you can't get it.

It was called barley.

The Thoroughbreds Ticking Time Bomb

Rupert Isaacson: Barley.

The Thoroughbreds Ticking Time Bomb.

Why is it a ticking time bomb?

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Because
the line was fizzling out.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: but they could get it on
meta mops and they could get it on Amazon.

Right.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: No, I don't think
you can get it on Amazon anymore.

You could try.

Rupert Isaacson: Just 'cause it's outta
print doesn't mean it's not on Amazon.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Well, it might be.

It might

Rupert Isaacson: be.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No secondhand stuff.

All right.

I will get one.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: All right.

Well I will, I will rust
one up and send you.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

Alright.

In that case lads, we will
reconvene with Susie and give

you a report of where we got to.

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Suzi Prichard-Jones: Thank you.

It's been a pleasure and an honor.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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