Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Okay, I've got Gitty Berkhoff here
on Equine Assisted World today,

and Gitty is one of my heroes.

She is a mother of a special needs young
man who's now doing incredibly well.

But the story of how she and her husband
Henrik got there, you need to hear.

And she now runs one of the best
equine assisted practices I've

ever seen in the center of Germany.

And also has a livery yard that
runs as what they call an active

style, where the horses all live
out in a very interesting system.

So she sort of wears all
these different hats.

And in, when it comes to the
cutting edge of equine assisted

stuff, gitty really is a mentor.

And is someone who, if I was in
your shoes, listeners and viewers,

I would be reaching out to her for
mentorship and training, and you'll

see why as we proceed with this.

So thank you for coming on, gitty.

Can you tell us a little bit about
who you are and how you evolved to

the practice that you currently have?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yes, of course.

Thank you for having me here and to give
me the opportunity to, to tell the story

of my husband and me and our son Julian.

And it's, it's interesting because
something is near to the story you

had with Rowan and maybe that touched
us and Yes, it, it, it showed us

that other people have nearly same
stories or different stories, but the.

The important things are the same
and, and bring stones to, stones

rolling and, and it goes on.

And we had an, an
interesting way with our son.

It started from, I was working as a
nurse later than teacher for nurses.

And Henry, my husband and me
met each other and married were

very, yeah, fresh, married.

Can, can we say that?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Newlywed we would say.

Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.

Yeah.

And then we notice, okay, I'm
pregnant, I am there's a child on

his way and they said in the middle
of the pregnancy that Julian is.

Not really healthy, that
he's disabled him, that they

don't know if he can survive.

And all the med medicine specialists
said, you don't have to to, to get

this child, you have to do an abortion.

Is that the right term?

Mm-hmm.

And we knew no, when I,
I cannot survive that.

I, I cannot.

This child belongs to us and
we have to go the way with him.

As long as it needs, he needs us.

Maybe he will not survive,
but we don't want to take part

of his life away from him.

Julian was born in 2002 and he had
really a lot of complications and

were, he was fighting for his life.

We did the same, we were parents
fighting 24 hours for his life.

And some years later when he was more
stable and not so much in danger all the

time, and life went normal ways, it felt
a bit more normal than in the beginning.

I thought when he, I think when he was
four years old, what about riding therapy?

And we live on a farm here and we had
ponies from my father-in-law, but they

were not so such educated that I could put
my disabled sensitive child on, on them.

And yes, I searched riding therapy,
but that was, yeah, not bad.

But I felt there's more, there's more
possible than sitting on a horse going

round by round, doing some games.

Yes.

That's nice.

All the time when horses meet children,
it's nice, of course, but I thought

there's more possible than that.

And I started to, to figure out is, is
there a way for much more education or

more magic between horse and children?

And I found some horsemanship concepts
and started to work with Julian and

sometimes families with other disabled p
children came and asked for the same and.

That was, yeah, the beginning of working
with children and horses and I never

said I'm doing therapy or something,
but it happened that families came

here and started paying for that.

Okay.

Yes, horses are expensive animals.

Sometimes you need money.

And there, there was a bit pressure
when parents come and think, the

children have to go on the horse.

We pay you for riding lessons.

And I, I said all the time, no,
I'm not doing riding lessons.

I want to figure out what the children
need and what is the right magic.

Education and development for
the, for the children in nature.

And there was always a, a, a bit conflict.

And then something happened really
interesting in I look at the date it was

2017, Henry had the idea to send me to a
program in a town in, in Germany, Lingen.

And there was a presentation from Horse
Boy Method and I didn't know what Horse

Boy method, what the hell is that?

Okay, you, you paid for this?

I go, but I'm tired.

I had a really hard week and now this
week going to Zolin and listening to

some people, I don't know, talking
about whatever, okay, I'm going there.

And then it, it took I
think not, not an hour.

And I was really inspired
from everything I heard there.

Horse boy method.

I called my husband and
said, I have to learn that.

That's so incredible.

I have to learn that there's
so much science behind.

I have to learn.

But there's no, no place
in Germany at this time.

We can learn that maybe I have to go to
Texas, but that's, that's not possible.

And when I came home, he said, why not?

Of course you can go to Texas.

I, I thought he's really totally crazy
now because our farm, the disabled child,

my mother was really ill at that time.

I had to take care of her and there was
so much work I couldn't imagine to go from

this farm and my family and my child's.

And then we planned that
and went together to Texas.

In 2018, in January, we were in Texas
not really knowing what we are doing.

We were there and did
Horse Boy from one to four.

Rupert Isaacson: I remember it well, and
I, you know, I remember thinking, wow,

these people, they're really serious.

But of course I had met you do you
remember back in the winter of 2017 in

Germany And I had been out to your farm
and I'd met Julian and your son and I'd

seen the operation that you were running.

And I remember thinking, I don't think
this lady needs to learn anything from me.

She's clearly doing an amazing job, but.

Of course what you've developed
since 2018 is even more amazing.

But before we go there, could you
take us back to when Julian was born?

You've told us he was disabled and you've
told us that his life was in danger.

Let's have some more detail.

What was the disability?

Why was his life in danger?

What did you need to do
to bring him outta danger?

Can you tell us this story please?

'cause it will, I will really
help people to understand.

Gitti Berkhoff: Mm.

When I was pregnant, they
found out was ultrasound.

What is the name in English?

Ultrasound.

Yeah, ultrasound That there
is, open space in his back.

We call it spina bifida.

Rupert Isaacson: Spina bifida.

Right.

Gitti Berkhoff: And Cephas Hydrocephalus.

Rupert Isaacson: Hydrocephalus.

Yes.

We have water in the, in the water.

On the brain.

Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And it was, hmm, terrible because they
said maybe he will die before he's

born, or he will die when he's born.

Why did they

Rupert Isaacson: think he would die?

From the cephalitis or
from the spine is not.

'cause there's

Gitti Berkhoff: some, you know,
the cline here the small brain, the

small part of the brain was too deep.

And in this area of the,
the cerebellum was too deep.

Yeah.

Cerebellum was too deep.

Much too deep.

And there was pressure on we
call it h stem, the first part.

Yeah.

The brainstem.

Yeah.

Brainstem was breathing.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: Swallowing.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah,

Gitti Berkhoff: and when there's too
much pressure, you can't breathe.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: And it got, it got during
the pregnancy deeper and deeper, and the

pressure was too high and that you could
see there was so much water in the head.

Then yeah, at that point they,
they started with surgeries

during, while pregnancy unborn
children to, to give a surgery.

Now they do it, all of the
children get the surgery

Rupert Isaacson: inside the mother.

In,

Gitti Berkhoff: inside the mother.

Yeah.

At that point was the beginning of that.

And the specialists said if you do
that, yes, that can help, but about 50%.

Get into abortion to, to,
or much too early born.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: And that then you
have more problems because of the

Too early born, the premature birth.

Yeah.

Right.

And we, we didn't want to do that.

And our profess neuro, your

Rupert Isaacson: neurosurgeon,

Gitti Berkhoff: neurosurgeon said,
no, let it go like it is, and then

we will do that when he's spawn.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: That this water
drain system after he was born.

But the problem with breathing
was from the beginning.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: And he
had a lot of p pneumonia.

Pneumonia because the swallowing,
he, he bruised his fruit and milk

and something, and then he had

Infection of, of the brain.

Okay.

From the problems.

And the breathing went more
worth and worth and worth.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: And then, yeah.

So

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

What did you do to retrieve the situation?

So if this situation is getting
worse and worse, now you

have infection in the brain.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What do
you do in this situation?

Gitti Berkhoff: I started
praying and beaten.

Yeah.

You know, praying.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Praying.

Absolutely.

And

Gitti Berkhoff: then when he was, it
was so bad that we thought the next

surgery, maybe he cannot survive that I.

I was at on a point that I thought I,
I break with everything because yeah,

I, I accepted when I was pregnant.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Gitti Berkhoff: And I
couldn't understand why.

I accept and we go this way
and then he dies after that.

I couldn't understand.

But he didn't.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

He did not die.

He

Gitti Berkhoff: didn't.

He is, he survived.

And then was a moment when a young
doctor and me, we, we had a lot

of nights sitting there with him,
and the crisis was really hard.

It was really a, a, a big crisis.

And then Yuan got a bit better and this
young man came in and Yuan was on, on

the, on the table to to, to be he wanted
to see him and to check everything.

And he saw him and the face
got wha and started crying

because he didn't know this man.

And we noticed, oh, his brain is okay.

He can he can make a difference
between mommy's face and this man.

I don't want to have this man on my body.

And he said, no.

And this doctor and me, we, we were
so happy to see that Julian can make

the difference between these two faces
that we'd call it in German stren.

This was a not he was not used to this
person, and he said, no, no, no, no, no.

And that was really a, a wonderful
moment to see that he's, he's

maybe he, he has not so much

Rupert Isaacson: brain damage.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Brain damage from that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, so it went be better and better.

And then we started

Rupert Isaacson: life.

How many surgeries did
Julian have to have?

Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, there were time.

I knew that exactly, but in the
first two years of his life, I

think he had nine or 10 surgeries
and different stuff from the brain.

Then he had problems with the
drain system in his belly,

and that made other problems.

Then it was broken more than one time.

Nobody knew from, from, growing and
then he got, his body got longer

and then it was disconnected.

Well, yeah.

And the was sometimes a big problem.

Then he had five, about 41 degrees
cel you and the next surgery.

Yeah, 41.

Wow.

Yeah.

41.

And then you get into the surgery.

Rupert Isaacson: Crazy.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

That was really crazy.

And you have to give that
child away on the door.

You cannot wait until he is sleeping.

And that was really like
to give it to, to, to some

Rupert Isaacson: hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: To somebody.

Well, yeah.

Killing him.

Rupert Isaacson: So for the
listeners and viewers, who, if

you just take a moment to think.

What this means as a parent
because of course giddy, you

did not just have one child.

Gitti Berkhoff: No,

Rupert Isaacson: you have three boys.

And so you also had to be a mother.

Yeah.

To the young ones coming while
dealing with all of this.

And I know that Henrik, obviously
you, your husband Henrik, is

also one of my great heroes.

But nonetheless, this was extremely
difficult and you are working

and you are doing all this stuff.

I think for many people, the idea of

on top of this to then start
a therapy practice for other

people in your position.

For many of us, this would be too much.

Even after some years I know
that the surgeries continued.

I know, okay, maybe they were
more spaced out, but nonetheless,

this was, this is heavy.

How did you find the energy and the
will, the willpower, the desire to

then offer what was working for you
with the horses to other people?

Because I think a lot of us would
say, if you had only served your

son, this would have been enough.

Enough.

Enough, right?

Yeah.

But you didn't, you went this extra.

Why?

Why?

Gitti Berkhoff: It's very easy, you know,

horses give energy, give you energy.

Mm.

And when I was really tired from not
knowing when it's night, when it's day Mm.

All always in a, in a circle
of doing stuff for yu.

And when I had one hour sometimes,
then I hopped on a horse on

a pony from my father-in-law.

And that gave me the energy.

And that was, maybe I, I
never thought about that.

But there was a point that you said,
we, we all have a, a little trauma.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I, I forgot that that was I think
it was a trauma all this, but the

energy from, to go out in nature and
to be with the horses was so big.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: And.

Always in my life.

I think if you have something, what makes
you happy and you share it, then it gets

more, that gives you more, you you become
something back more than you gave away.

And to share this, this luck with
be able to be with horses, that was

always something like a motor or
something, the energy to, to share.

Then I can feel what I have.

Mm-hmm.

And I always was thankful for the,
this option to be with horses.

And I told my children, my three boys,
sometimes they say, why are so many

different people at our farm all the time?

And I said to them.

Yes, it's nice to be here
in this paradise place.

And it gets more nice when you share
it, when you let other people be a

part of of this and get the healing
energy on that, that gives you the,

the, the option to, to grow and to,
to stay with energy and healthy.

I think that was the most reason.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's, it's an
interesting viewpoint because you are

right, but I don't think everybody comes
to this conclusion, and particularly when

you have the level of exhaustion that
you had, there's something before we go

into where Julian is now, and also your
practice now, because you, you really

have a unique practice that I want you to.

Tell us about the, I just want
you to talk a little bit about

your background as a nurse mm-hmm.

Before Julian came into the world,
because I think this has also really

helped your practice and I think, yeah.

There's something I've learned a lot from
you because of this previous background.

So tell us what kind of nurse
were you and how has this

informed your current practice?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.

I was a young nurse when
I worked as a nurse.

I.

Was normal on the, in
the hospital working.

And then I started to work
with a special patient.

Patients, yeah, yeah.

Patients with stroke, with dementia.

Okay.

And disabled mentally or with
brain injuries, brain injuries

and, and sensitive problems.

Okay.

And from that later, I, I was, years
later, I was a teacher for nurses.

Mm-hmm.

And had this team, and this
teams was my, my biggest oh man.

What minor?

And my biggest interest to
teach about strokes and people

with stroke and dementia.

Rupert Isaacson: Why were
you so interested in strokes

in dementia and the brain?

Gitti Berkhoff: Good question.

Because yeah, there, yeah.

Good question.

I always told my students

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: That when people are
with, in province with self sensory,

it's important what your hands do.

Mm-hmm.

And there's a lot of stress in
this area, in this job of nursing.

And you have to run and you are
always in trouble with the time and

less people and too much work, but.

How you speak, how you talk to people, how
you touch them the sensory of your hands.

That's what I am.

And you are, and nobody
can, can take that from you.

What, what you can give with the hands
and this people that demand or with

stroke and sensory issues, they need the
sensory of your hands and of your heart

and your soul and and that's they need

Rupert Isaacson: touch.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Touch from and love from here and love.

Yeah.

And that was, I, I think that was
touched me and my mother later

had a Parkinson and a stroke too.

And Okay.

I could help her a lot
with all this knowledge.

And I had a lot of touch to a
lot of time with dying people.

And

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: And keeping them
helping the way when they have the

last part of their life and all.

This was my, my favorite yeah.

Profession.

And I was teaching a lot of this stuff
and to have the children with disabled

in at my place on the farm and with
horses, that was often that families

came and said they don't want to put
this child on a horse because it could

have precise epilep, unfi, epilepsy.

Yes.

Could have an

Rupert Isaacson: epileptic fit.

Yeah,

Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.

Or spastic or something.

And I did something that, you know,
it's kinesthetic, it's the kind of

move bodies without carrying like
this this is carrying and let's the

body fly, or I can take this bottle.

It's better.

You can make this or you can
say, okay, let's, let's roll,

let's have other movements.

And that's good for the brain and for
everything and all this can go hand in

hand with the, the idea of horse boy.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: And with
it's not riding therapy.

I'm not a therapist.

I try to bring horses with
good education and trust into

human, to people and children.

They need this magic from their bodies.

And I can combinate all this with
movement, with sensory work, with

good, educated horses and a lot of
fun and and crazy stuff together with

a lot of families and children and.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: well, I've seen the
fun and the crazy stuff and one of my,

one of my most cherished experiences
in my professional life has been taking

Julian, your son out Fox hunting.

Yeah.

And this is something I
never thought we would do.

And before the listeners all
scream and say, oh, you can't

go killing foxes, don't worry.

We don't do that.

We are following a pre
laid scent with hounds.

No fox is involved.

However, the trappings, the
outward pageantry is the same.

And of course, I grew up with this
and loving the sense of freedom.

And it had always struck me as a
little bit sad in the therapeutic

riding world that the experiences
always had to be so controlled because.

That's not what feeds the human soul.

What feeds the human soul
is adventure and nature.

And when you agreed to help us set up
these special needs hunting days mm-hmm.

With a, with a real pack of hounds
and laying the sensor that the

riders, including Julian, who
listeners is still in a wheelchair,

but doing incredibly well.

He, he has a job.

He drives, he's all of that work
and all of that angst from 20

years ago has, of course paid off.

He's a wonderful young man and
he, he presents at conferences and

flies around the world doing this.

It's been a great success.

But to see him in a big western
saddle in a, in hunting clothes,

going out and riding across country.

Like this,

Gitti Berkhoff: but, but let's say
it's, it's, it has to be a safe

Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

We did it in walk, but it is hunting.

Rupert Isaacson: We did it in walk.

Yeah.

But nonetheless, we were crossing country.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: The hounds
were working around us.

Mm-hmm.

And we still had to get up things
and down things and, you know,

it was real, it was real riding.

Yeah.

The fact that you could do this and that
you could see the value of this and that,

even though I think both you and I had
our hearts a little bit in our mouth, as

we say in English while this was going
on, of course this could only happen

because you pay such enormous attention
to the preparation of your horse.

Now you've talked a little bit about.

The need for a well-educated horse.

Mm-hmm.

But I know your horses and I know
that their level of education

is something far higher than
normal in the therapeutic world.

Can you talk to us a little bit about
how you prepare your horses and why

you prepare your horses in this way?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, of course.

We started our place here to be
a stable for people who want to

rent a place for their own horse.

We have 25 horses from other
people here, and we build it.

And I have at the moment nine horses with
and with them I can work with children

and adults and we build a stable, an
active stable that the horses can live in.

Hers outside all the time.

Move, have fun talk to each other.

They notice a lot of things, machines
going around them, and noises and

traffic, whatever people, children fire.

We, what we do.

And that is one part that the horses
have all their their needs and

we educate them from the system.

You you teach me the horse boy
training system for the horses.

It, it's, it's a kind of talking, it's
a kind of horse boy and the movement

for the horses movement, methods for
the horses, and we train them with.

One part is crazy time that they can
play and run around with other horses.

Not only one on a, a launch, but
also that we are doing longing.

We do the side steps pattern lateral

Rupert Isaacson: work.

Yeah, lateral

Gitti Berkhoff: work, because
that changes the in hand work.

Changes the brain.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

And

Gitti Berkhoff: then we make them
bomb proof with every crazy ideas we

can have together with the children.

Mostly they have to help me to develop
the, the horses with crazy stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's
something to watch because I, I've

watched you, you know, lunging the
horses for their top line muscle.

Mm-hmm.

But having the children helping
you do this, and I've watched you.

Working the horses in hand to
keep them supple, like a yoga.

And again, as you say, for the
brain of the horse as well, and

the children helping you with this.

And, and then also, as you say,
the crazy time where the horses can

have a lot of fun playing in herds.

But again, the children and the
young adults that you work with all

participating in the care of the horse.

I think this is really unusual.

You don't see this in
most therapeutic bonds.

There's usually a separation between
the client time, which is often very

controlled and frankly a bit boring.

And the work with the horse.

And one of the things I love about
your place is that the people who are

working the horse are often the clients.

This I think is quite revolutionary.

Also very practical.

When you are, when you have a
horse that's educated like this the

brain is good, the body is good.

They can collect, they
can make good decisions.

You can then of course explore.

I think it would be fun if you
told us a little bit about how some

of your play dates, and I'm, I'm
glad you call them play dates, not

therapy sessions, because I never
yet met a child that wanted therapy.

But every child I've
ever met wanted to play.

I have seen really, really
creative things happening in your

arenas and in your forest trails.

Can you just give us some examples?

Because I think people can take
inspiration for things to try at home.

Can Oh, yeah, yeah,

Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.

And the, the most and lovely
and easiest thing everybody

has to try is pillow fighting.

Rupert Isaacson: Pillow fighting.

Yeah.

How does pillow fighting work?

Gitti Berkhoff: We have old pillows.

Some are strong, some are wobbly, and the
wobbly are the best because if you have a

child on a horse and you will do a boring
game, like, catching a ball and you throw

the ball and the ball comes to the fingers
and is pew going away, and that tells

children you are not able to catch a ball.

And I'm afraid of balls.

In my childhood, I always had fear
about balls getting into my face

and I'm too stupid to catch them.

And that's what children can feel.

And we started that with pillows
because you can get a pillow

on your head and your face.

Yeah.

What about when it's a soft pillow?

Why not?

And when the horse gets a
pillow in the face, ah, okay.

We can say sorry, but it's not really
the end of the world because it's

soft and you can catch it with two
fingers if you have a soft pillow.

I don't have one here.

It's easy to catch.

You can do a lot of funny stuff
because chi the parents sometimes

stay on the, on the line.

On the side and waiting.

And then we take all the pillows
and say to the children, oh,

let's, let's go near to the parent.

And then we throw all the
pillows on Daddy or mommy.

And from that moment, parents are
in, we take them in, then we run away

on the horse that they can throw it
after us and they can try to throw

the pillow that it's staying on the
butt of the horse or on the head.

Or you can put it on your head.

You can try to to, to ha to get
it on the butt of the parents.

And that gets the most points.

Or you can count how often can we throw
it and it's not falling on the ground.

And we can do it like a Frisbee.

It's so easy.

And we have a big.

There are all the pillows with
different colors different

kind of soft or more strong.

Mm-hmm.

And that's so easy.

Then we do what, what,

Rupert Isaacson: Sword fighting.

Gitti Berkhoff: Sword fighting and Yeah.

Then the children have to be careful that
they don't hit the head of the horse.

Sometimes they do.

Then we say something and
then we play and we do play.

We play with toilet brushes,
you know, toilet brushes.

Tell me

Rupert Isaacson: how you
play with the toilet brush.

Gitti Berkhoff: We have pee pee pots and,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, the potties.

Gitti Berkhoff: Potties,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: And we put water in.

Yeah.

We don't, we don't tell That's water.

Like the people have to think it's peep.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And then we have the brushes and
we can put all the water on the

parents, and then they scream
and run away, and then we hunt.

We hunt them.

Hunting parents with toilet.

Rupert Isaacson: It, it's an amazing site.

I've seen, I've seen your autistic
kids on horseback hunting their

parents with toilet brushes, and it
looks like they're, they're, you know,

like in a Catholic ceremony with the,
with the, with the frankincense Yeah.

Sensor.

But instead you're doing
it with toilet brush.

It's not holy water.

It's pretend be water and Yeah.

Yeah.

The, the, the sense of anarchy and joy.

Yeah.

And rebel.

And when it's

Gitti Berkhoff: hot, when it's hot,
it's a nice rain for everybody.

And you can for children in a wheelchair,
the toilet brush has a long stick and

then they sit and they're small and
they can brush the main of the horse

because the toilet brush is longer,
you can clean the horse with that.

And it's all the time.

Very funny because
people come along and say

the toilet brushes and this is
really nice and gets people to

communicate and ask questions.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I think, I think what is so often
missing is joy and, and humor.

Real humor.

And this sense of rebellion of
breaking rules, which of course

for children, this is like oxygen.

Mm-hmm.

And I think particularly children
that spend a lot of their time

being controlled, and unfortunately
if you are special needs, a lot

of your life is quite controlled.

This idea that you could
express yourself in this way.

And then of course humor like this.

This is perspective.

When you break the rules
and you take this kind of.

When you make any kind of joke, you are
seeing the situation from the outside.

And I think this expands cognition because
it allows the brain to, and empathy the

brain to say, okay, I need to step outside
the situation, look at the situation in

perspective in order to create this humor.

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Gitti Berkhoff: There's another
example for changing the perspective.

Also you can do interview with toilet
brushes like a micro microphone.

Yeah, that's very nice.

You did some microphone.

Sorry, you did one.

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, but
there's another example.

When you have your stick for.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, for
the, the the lunging, whip,

Gitti Berkhoff: lunging,
whip with a maybe a

Rupert Isaacson: long handle.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

There is a, a string on
the, on the end like this.

Okay.

The lash or this, yeah, this, this rope.

This little rope.

And when we go to the forest, there
are, hmm, I don't know the name.

Distant, you know Clayton?

Yeah.

Thistles, the small distals and
the small balls all the time.

Staying in the, in the tie of the, ah,
no, those, and in the hair and everything.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Burdock, burdock

Gitti Berkhoff: burdock.

Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of humor,

Gitti Berkhoff: oh, this is, can you
bring me a toilet brush later please?

Would be possible.

That would be, yes.

We

Rupert Isaacson: could, if we could
see a little toilet brush interview,

that would be, I think, quite helpful.

Gitti Berkhoff: I, I need
a toilet brush enthusiast.

One in the

the horse.

And yes.

And I went to the forest and all the time
in this string of my lung lounging whip.

Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

Gitti Berkhoff: The whip.

There were this distills in.

Ah, and I was like, nah this diss and put
them away and, oh, there's another one.

And then I thought, change perspective.

Let's see how many distals
can hold on the string.

They will fall off.

No, they don't.

And then you can start angling from the
horse, the whip sitting on the horse

holding the whip, holding this string into
the distals and see how many can we get?

Rupert Isaacson: Can you catch?

Yeah.

Can we catch like, like fishing

Gitti Berkhoff: big fishes from Distals?

Sometimes they fall on your head
and you have a really problem

or into the main of the horse.

It's so funny that children sit on the
horse and are fishing distance from

the horse with this whip and that this
changing perspective from something

that makes you angry to something that
makes you in a record you have Olympic

discipline from that fishing diesels.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It, it, it's genius.

Because very easy.

It's taking frustration

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And turning it into joy.

Yeah, yeah,

Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And I, this
just isn't taught enough.

I feel in the therapy world,
the importance of joy.

If you are not creating joy, you're
probably creating, its opposite.

Right.

You're probably creating some
sort of suffering, even if

that is not your intention.

Because if you're not consciously
creating joy, then what are you creating?

And this is something which this
conversation I is not there in the

normal therapeutic trainings breaking

Gitti Berkhoff: rules,

Rupert Isaacson: but it's really
the most important thing, right?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: We have an old toilet from
building the house and changing something

and it's laying into the lost things.

Place is sent.

It's a, it's a hill from
sand and children can play.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
big, a big sand pit.

Big sand parcel.

Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: And we
put this old toilet there.

It's laying there.

Sometimes we, we build
something with that.

And really when we go with the children
there and there the first time here.

Seeing the toilet in the sand.

Parents like,

and at one point all the, the kids
ask, why is there a toilet in sand?

And that's communication.

Mm-hmm.

And then we can do silly
things with this toilet.

A lot of autism children
have problems with toilet

Rupert Isaacson: training,

Gitti Berkhoff: toilet training.

And then we can make a, a game with that.

We can, we've thought about building
poo and putting it in and building

Rupert Isaacson: poo out of wet sand.

Mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: Wet sand or dark get horse

Rupert Isaacson: poop.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Horse or create dog poo or
create goat poo, human poo.

And make a treasure hunt with
poo all over the farm sometimes.

Okay.

Thank you.

Ah, here is a, a toilet brush and you
can make an interview with this horse.

Hello my friend.

What have you to tell us today, I think.

Where is your rider?

I want to see the rider.

Ah,

Rupert Isaacson: the crazy.

A master rider.

Could, could, could.

This is Henrik Berkoff
who is the other half?

And we're gonna be doing a,
a, a podcast with him over

on live free, ride free soon.

But her Ko, could you say a few words
into the toilet brush for us please?

Gitti Berkhoff: Would
you say something for us?

Hey,

no, you can, you can tell us something.

Rupert Isaacson: Hi, how are you?

We're, we're good.

The, the toilet brush is
actually inspiring me.

It makes me feel like I
need the toilet right now.

Do, how has your toilet
experience been today?

Berko

Gitti Berkhoff: Nice time at the toilet.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yes.

It, it's a good time every day.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Everybody needs that.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: I have to

Rupert Isaacson: go.

Gitti Berkhoff: Human
being is, you have to go

Rupert Isaacson: to the
house where everybody goes.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And it's so easy to have a lot of fun
with children and break rules all day.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And the rule is to have no rules.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, what's, what
I find wonderful about that is again,

I think kids that are controlled for
so much of their lives, they lose a

little bit their self-respect because.

They don't get a chance to push, yeah.

To sell the boundaries in the
same way that normal quote

unquote normal kids might.

So to give them the chance to consciously
break rules continuously, like I've,

I've watched your play dates going
from, as you say, massive pillow fights

on horseback, including using the
little pony as a, as a hiding fort.

And also with the pillow stacked up
on its butt so that you can use them

as ammunition and the pony stands
stock still nose his job and all your

other horses going round as if they
were in battle, knowing their job and

participating joyfully and safely and
these kids going after their parents and

each other with the pillows to chucking
the toilet brush water to interacting

with the toilet in the sand pit.

You, you can see the world of, and then
going to the forest and fishing for

thistles or, or, or the other things.

You can see the world of these,
the minds of these children just

expanding and this feeling of relief.

Like at last, I can be a proper
kid at last, I can be the person.

I should be not this poor person in
the wheelchair or this poor person

who's a bit depressed because, you
know, I find the world confusing.

It's liberating.

But of course this can only happen
if you have horses that are prepared.

Yeah.

In the way that you prepare
them and the team that you have.

One last thing.

I'd like you to you to talk a little
bit about your team because this is

something I think often overlooked.

For anybody's mind to develop.

There has to be a tribe.

We are a social animal and
one person, one-to-one.

It's okay sometimes, but really
we need multiple personalities.

But just quickly, the toilet thing, one
of the reasons I find that so innovative

is I remember when I was trying to toilet
train my son Rowan, and this took so

long later when I spoke to him about
it, when he was more cognitive, he said,

well, dad, I was terrified of the toilet.

I was really afraid of it.

And I hear this time and time and
time again from older autistic

people, when they become adults,
they say, yeah, the toilet was

terrifying because it had this space.

You felt you were going to fall into
the space and there was this sense

of shame and this sense of fear and
getting it wrong, and then you just

wanted to push it away and push it away.

So the idea that you could have a toilet
that you can go and make friends with

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And have fun
with and play with in this silly

way standing right out there.

It's, it's just genius because
it takes away the fear.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So all of these good ideas that
you have do they all come from you?

I, again, you do have this team.

Can you talk to us about your
team and how you created the team?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, the team, the
team are different girls and some

of them were, have been clients
and then came back and stood here.

And I have one girl, she was
here from school practicum.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a
practicum is an internship.

Gitti Berkhoff: Internship,
a school internship.

And she was really depressed.

She didn't talk, you know Johan?

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I do know her.

You know her?

Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.

And I didn't know anything.

And it's a really important point
when we have a lot of children

from the plaque here, tree here.

And always I say, I don't want to
know everything about their diagnosis.

I want them to feel
like a child on a farm.

We always have ideas to develop them,
but they, I, I want them not to have

the feeling they are from glass and
out of glass and I can see everything.

There are children on a farm.

What I have to know, I want to
know, but if not, totally important.

I don't want to know.

And sometimes this young people come back.

And sometimes they cannot find at the
point after school, some go, don't go

to school and they sit at home in their
rooms and are depressed and have no

kind of no job, nothing to do, and no

Rupert Isaacson: purpose.

Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And there's no sense in all that.

And sometimes they come back
and start working here, and

then they are part of the team.

And it's really important that that,
that the children other, no, sorry, that

the, the young people who, the staff
here, everybody has his own super craft.

Superpower.

Superpower.

And you have to see what is your
superpower and what is the child you

can be, are the best to work with.

And we see.

Some of them are really good with the
smaller children or the older one, and

we don't look what we, we cannot, we,
we always look after what, where are we?

Especially good.

And that makes, makes everybody
feel okay, it doesn't matter what

is your superpower, but there is
one and the same with the horses.

This horse is best for this job.

Sometimes the horses say, oh,
I'm the right one for this job.

And that's what this team has to
be the same and the children have

to feel that we are good with
each other and accept what we can.

Where is our superpower?

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

The big pillow fights I've witnessed.

Your girls, your team, really
getting into them with the kids.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Would you say that.

The majority of your team did
arrive at your place with their

own mental health challenges.

Yeah.

And by being, I So becoming
professionals as part of your

team have found their own healing.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.

Especially one girl, she
was really in a bad yeah.

Yeah.

Situation.

Situation.

And she started working and later she told
us that this was way out of her darkness.

In our darkness.

And yeah, she's here I
think since four years now.

Mm-hmm.

And yes, everybody has
his own trauma at a point.

And the horses heal.

The children, they come and us too,
and the staff and yeah, I think most

of them got better through the work.

And next week somebody
will start here working.

Okay.

It's really incredible.

You know this man, it's
Marcos, Marvin Marcos, really?

He starts, he's sitting at
home since years now, no work.

And he thought about
how old does he start?

I think like Yu 2022.

Okay.

23, 22.

And Marvel specialist you have,
if you ever have a question about

this Marvel and all the heroes
he knows and he's very goodish.

Patient with us that yes, that when
you ask the same question again and

again, no problem, he will answer.

And he starts now.

I think we start a bit
like collecting poo.

And I, I told him, oh, when we,
when you are here, that's super,

and you can drive the wheel loader.

It's a machine.

And he said, no, I never
did stuff like that.

Do you think I can do that?

I said, yes, I know.

And you know that I never bring you
in trouble with questions I have.

Yes, I know.

He said, and he's trusting me.

And at the point when he was really
little, and he came here about 10

years ago, I think it was really like
a people, a, a person was view to

the ground and cap puta, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: a, a hood.

A hood.

Always covering him.

Gitti Berkhoff: Always
in, in this position.

And now he's really much grown up
and a person like this and started

riding with a lot of safetyness.

He's, he's not he don't want
to have too much action and

he will start working here.

Let's see.

I'm really interested what will happen
now when he's starting working here.

Maybe two hours a day.

Better than sitting at home.

Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.

Now your own children are
also part of the team.

I think this is Oh, yeah.

Talking about and tell us.

So how does Julian now
participate and Oh, yeah.

'cause I know he's also working.

And then your other two sons.

We haven't talked about Tristan and
Yan at all, but I think we should

now tell us a little bit about
how your family is integrated.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, I think
they understood that the farm is

a place to give power to other
people, and it's a green care farm.

And they understood that.

It makes it, it gets more when we share

Rupert Isaacson: what is the
concept of a green care farm?

Can you explain?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

That makes, it's the way to, to let
nature be a place for healing, for,

for families, for children, for people,
whoever, and to, to not to only to build

stakes from maybe steaks or meat or
wheat or something to eat for people.

And farming, normal farming can
be, but we started to open the

farm for people to, to get healing.

To, to feel nature, to
experience, nature to explore.

And there's a green care idea.

We have tiny houses for families
that can come with their children and

spend time in nature with animals.

And our children started helping us.

Yeah, the, the Julian is working, you
know, he's, but when he has time on

weekends, and we have groups here,
people want to see the farm, he starts

to explore all this from the farm
and showing the groups what we do.

And he knows everything about the farm.

If he could walk, walk without wheelchair,
lift, without, he would be a farmer.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

Gitti Berkhoff: But this is in
this kind, not the easiest way,

but he can be a, a part of.

The screen care idea makes maybe
a job for him in, in the future.

Let's see.

And the middle son Tristan, he is now
21 and he started studying agriculture

in born in Germany and don't want
to be a farmer, but he's interested

in the system, green care farm and
letting and, and you can create it.

Maybe we do it with horses, maybe
they do it in a different way later.

Let's see.

And the youngest is, he is a young boy.

He's 16 years old now and sometimes
helping with the play dates.

And he's really good with young
boys with a DHD because it's

a bit of his personality and
he needs a lot of movement.

And we started.

Let him move whenever he wanted.

And this is a good place for
children like him to live on a farm.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's, it's something which I think
listeners also should know where Giddy

and her husband Henrik live their farm.

It really is a farm.

It's not just, we often say a farm with
horses when it's not actually a farm.

It's just a place where we keep horses.

But no, it is not only a
farm, but an organic farm.

Yeah.

And in fact, I believe you guys were
the first in your area to switch

to completely organic farming.

And it's, it's, it's a
fairly serious operation.

It's several hundred acres of, of
intensive agriculture as well as forest.

And you do this alongside the
the equine assisted programs.

How does the farming help.

Your clients understand the
world and develop in the world.

Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, I notice that children
more and more are so far away from nature.

They don't know that everything
you can buy in a supermarket

to eat is from nature.

It's coming from the land.

They don't know that.

Mm.

They don't know that apple grow on a tree.

They don't know that
chicken give us the eggs.

Sometimes children really, it's
not a joke that don't know the

difference between horses and cows.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Gitti Berkhoff: They are
here in our little town.

And to get the children here, we have
sh classes, school classes here, do a

bit of farming and gardening with them
and putting their hands in the earth.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Gitti Berkhoff: Planting something,
trees or vegetables, whatever, and

that is farming to, to, to show the
children this is our planet and our food

is growing here outside on the earth.

And one example all the time, if you hear
what is what about the weather today?

You may on the radio in the morning and
yeah, today we have some clouds, but

later there's coming the sun and then
we have nice weather and 27 degrees

today on the weekend, nobody and is
happy when rain is coming after long

part of dry dry weeks or something.

Nobody knows.

It's only sunshine weather.

And they, they use the water to have
the, the pool in, in the garden.

Nobody knows that we have
to take care of our water.

And it's so important that to the children
notice and learn outside this water, we

drink it and we have to take care of it.

And it's important to
that something can grow.

It's not important for the farmer.

It's important for everybody to have food.

They don't know that that's farming.

Farming is I think a lot of farmer
could start to open it for schools

and for children that people get
in touch with nature and farming.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm always surprised
that more farmers don't do that.

Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, really?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

You know, because also those of us
that really care about the countryside,

the culture, the human culture also
of the countryside, which I think

is always a happier culture than a
city culture because it's in nature.

We cannot expect the population
of people who live in cities.

We can't expect them to care about
the countryside or the environment

if they have no contact with it.

And if we are custodians of the land
and we have to open it or people will

not value it and they will destroy it.

This, I think, is something
really overlooked.

You have dealt with this stress
from the urban kids in quite

a few ways, not just the.

School groups coming to your farm, but you
taking your farm to the school, can you

tell us a little bit about that situation?

if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

There was a school and the principal
of the school told us, oh, we

had a really hard last half year.

There were one child died from cancer.

And there was a, like a amok situation
with a father who was amok love.

In, in, well,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

It, it threatening basically.

Yeah.

And a threatening violence.

A lot of fear threaten

Gitti Berkhoff: a lot of trouble.

The, the conflict between
Russia and Ukraine.

Mm-hmm.

Ukraine children and a lot of stress,
lots of violence and fighting.

Yeah.

Violent.

Yeah.

And she said, oh, could we, maybe
you can come, was one of your dogs?

And we go through.

Classrooms with the dog and Henry
and I, we, we thought, no, we come

with the whole farm to the school.

And we did.

We, we.

So what did you do?

What did you

Rupert Isaacson: bring?

Gitti Berkhoff: We brought two ponies.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: Into the school.

Little ponies, two goats,
three chickens, and two dogs.

Hunting dogs.

Big dogs.

Crazy dogs.

And that was 300 children.

Came in groups, but not really,
not everything was organized.

The children were able to
decide to make the choice.

I go to the police, I go to the dogs, I
go to the chicken and to the goats, and

it was in separate areas of the school
and they could they, they could teach

other children how to take care of that.

The chicken get not in trouble.

We had our children, Tristan Jota and
Catarina, the girlfriend of Tristan

Johanna, the worker of Farm Henry
and me, and we had all this areas

with this different parts of animals
or the animals and the children

went through all that and took.

Yeah.

Get, got in touch with the
animals on the, in the school.

And one child in at least came
and said to me, this was the

nicest day in my whole life.

And really hard touching moments.

And to have the, the animals, they did it.

It was so, they were really great.

And for example, I, I did two
ropes on every side of the dock.

Yeah.

One, two in the middle of the
dock, and then children, 1, 2,

3, 4 children on both sides.

And then was a challenge not to

pull it, push, pull it, pull it,
pull to pull, not to pull the dog.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: To see what the dog will
will do and what he wants to explore.

Okay.

And the dog was going around the field.

Ah,

Rupert Isaacson: and the

Gitti Berkhoff: children had to follows,

Rupert Isaacson: had to stay connected
to the dog, but not interfere with him.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And, and I did the ropes like this, and
the dog was under, then they, right.

They were the, the, ah, the tension
of the, the ropes were like here

and the dog was not in trouble.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Not affected.

If they did pull in, no, not

Gitti Berkhoff: throw the dog into parts.

No, the ropes were like this and the
dog was under this here, and then they

couldn't, and they was so soft, they had
to take care that all the children were

in, in, in this right position to, to go
where the dog wants to go in the middle.

And that worked.

And I had experts to say, oh,
I think the dog needs a break.

Everybody stopped the dog lay
on the ground and get cuddled.

And the same with the
ponies and with the goats.

Not to lead them.

Let's see what they want to do.

Follow the pony, follow the goat,
follow the chicken, get on the ground.

Be not too high for the chicken.

Then they come to you.

You cannot catch them.

They have to come to you
and like stuff like that,

Rupert Isaacson: yes, was

Gitti Berkhoff: so nice and easy.

The most easiest things are
often the most effective things.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, anytime that
you do those types of exercise too.

I think once again about this thing
about empathy and perspective taking.

Yeah, and looking through the eyes
of somebody or something else or

looking after the needs of something
or someone else in a way that is

playful and interesting and fun.

Rather than you have to do this,
you have to take care of the knees.

They sound simple to do, but they're not.

How do you come up with these good ideas?

Because I think you don't see
this type of work very often.

What makes you, where,
where does it come from?

This creativity?

Gitti Berkhoff: Hmm.

I don't know.

It's, it's in the moment.

It's in the moment When I think
something is a problem, then I

think, can I make a game from that?

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Gitti Berkhoff: Can I
do this like a concept?

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: When I get angry,
can I make a joy from that?

Rupert Isaacson: So it is basically
the idea that what you are doing

is you're taking every situation
that is potentially negative and

you're just turning it upside down.

Gitti Berkhoff: Try.

Yeah.

I try.

Yeah.

That's brilliant.

It, it helps a lot.

Rupert Isaacson: Did, did you always
have this personality or is this

something that you learned over time?

Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, I think, Hmm,
yeah, when I was a child, yeah, maybe

there was a Siri called MacGyver
Uhhuh, and this man can change every

problem in he can, he can build
something, a machine from maybe on this

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: And, and this,
and, and doing something with that.

I dunno.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: And that's so funny to,
to, to figure out how can I find the

MacGyver situation from that and Yeah.

That it's, it's a game.

It's joy.

Rupert Isaacson: I don't know.

Did, did your work with dementia?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Help
you with this somehow?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Interesting point.

Because the dementia people, you cannot
change what they had in their life.

It's long time ago, and now
they are in a situation and feel

that the same happens again.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Then

Gitti Berkhoff: you have to follow.

You cannot discuss and say, no, there
is nobody who wants to kill you.

You cannot discuss that.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: Because what they feel
is the truth, and that's for everybody.

If I feel something, it is real.

If I feel fear because
of a toilet, it's real.

We cannot discuss about that.

Yeah.

Then we have to follow, follow.

And we have to believe that the
children have to have the feeling that

I believe them when they have fear
or a, an they are angry or whatever.

And from that, if you accept the first
point is accept, accept it, and then

let's see what we can do with, with this.

And to be creative and to
break every rule you can break.

Maybe that's can be the, the,
the way out or the way in.

More the way in than the way out.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I agree.

You, you've talked to me before
also about the, and I think this

is what you are getting at when
you say you have to believe them.

You've talked to me about validation
and the, the importance of validation.

And you've talked about it both.

With people with dementia and
with people with autism or a DHD.

Can you tell us what you mean
by validation and how do you

use it in a way that isn't just
bullshitting someone and telling

them, oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.

You know, how do you make this validation
something that can lead to change?

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

An example

oh, let's, let's see.

Which example would be the best.

I had an old lady and she, she was really
in fear and very ex exhausted or, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And nobody knew how to get
her more cut, feel safe.

And she was running all around and asking
everybody, where is my, my handbag?

I lost my handbag.

And they try to give her handbags.

Here is one, take this.

No, it, it was, it was
never the right one.

And validation meant that you don't try to
talk about, stop searching your handbag.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Gitti Berkhoff: And it's long time ago.

What, what?

There was a problem.

And, and you don't, you don't
lost your hand back here.

Is it?

It's about

imagine the, the fear of losing it
because I worked with her and then

we, we came into at a point I asked.

I asked her what she told
you, lost your handbag.

And to ask what they, what they
say gives the opportunity to speak.

And then we found out this really demand
person when she was in, in the second

World War, she lost her handbag with
everything, the money and the papers.

And she had three little children and
an old woman with her and no food.

And she lost or somebody steal
it, and the money was away.

The papers were away.

And the, the of awe papers.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, the,
the identification Doc.

Gitti Berkhoff: Identification,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: And then she, they
were all in danger and maybe killed.

And then she, she was, she
had the only option to.

Sell her body to the soldiers,
to the soldiers, that they

don't kill them and the kids.

And from that, she was, when she went in
trouble searching her, her handbag and

then sitting there and crying and not
be alone and following in her world,

that means that validation is not to
discuss and telling people, no, it's

not right how you feel that, and it's
long time ago, and now we are here.

It's to follow into this feelings and
then give them the the feel feeling to,

to talk about like a good friend and
to be not alone and let the tears come

and then she could come down and, yeah.

And I, I don't know.

How did you find

Rupert Isaacson: out the backstory about.

What had happened to her in the war?

Did she tell you or did
someone who knew her tell you?

Gitti Berkhoff: Nobody knew.

She told Okay.

Nobody knew that.

She never talked about that.

She was traumatized and she was, she, she
had her speak, but sometimes you don't

have people with the opportunity to speak.

She had it.

And when they get into this feeling, they
get really, sometimes really not demand

Rupert Isaacson: Totally.

How they come back to clarity.

Yeah.

To lucidity in,

Gitti Berkhoff: in this feelings.

Sometimes.

Not always.

Sometimes, and sometimes this is too much.

But if you follow and not try to get
them to a point, really follow soft.

Mm.

Sometimes you can go back to trauma
and, but it's, it's a bit dangerous.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

In,

Gitti Berkhoff: in this
case, it was helpful.

Not all the time you have to have
a bit experience with that and

to stop when it's necessary and
important, more important to stop.

But it's what the, the autism children
also have all the parents that somebody

comes and tries to understand and really
to understand what is the feeling behind,

because the, the emotion behind behavior,
behavior is always, there's always an

emotion behind when you are at the dentist
and he says, you don't have to have fear.

Sorry, I have it.

It's, it's just here.

And that that doesn't help.

I need somebody who
understands that I have.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Again, is, is the
validation really empathy?

Again, it seems that this
word keeps coming up.

Empathy, empathy,

Gitti Berkhoff: empathy,
empathy, empathy, and really.

Following the feelings.

And

I believe to believe.

Yeah.

To believe Really.

To believe.

I believe you.

Yes.

Because even

Rupert Isaacson: if this is a construct
of your imagination and you're seeing

snakes coming out of the wall Yeah.

To you, this is reals.

You can't, you can't
say there are no snakes.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: If you say, oh my God,

Gitti Berkhoff: sometimes it, it, it's
only, it's enough to ask what could help.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Wendy?

Do ask what could help you?

Gitti Berkhoff: Do they tell

Rupert Isaacson: you sometimes
if you do this, this will help?

Gitti Berkhoff: Sometimes
it's, it's it's a point to ask

because they lived a long life.

What did help?

What did you help?

Sometimes, and then
sometimes they say praying.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: And then let's pray.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Together, we pray together

Gitti Berkhoff: and not find the solution.

If you really a problem,
you don't want all the si.

So sometimes singing a lot of
helping us in music to sing old songs

they have mostly from the church,
something that they want to sing.

Then when we are old, we want Rolling
Stones or something, but they, yeah,

this really old people now, 90 or
a hundred years old, they have,

you have to know that homework.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Again, I think that very sometimes
when I'm doing trainings and in our

methods, I will say they're often young
people that are doing the trainings.

They're often maybe 21, 22.

Yeah.

We'll be walking in the environment
and I'll say, tell me what is that

tree, or, tell me the history of this
piece of land that we're walking in.

What happened here 500 years ago?

What?

And often they say, well, I don't
know, or, I'm not interested in that.

I'm not interested in history,
or I'm not interested in trees.

And then I'll say, well, yeah, but what if
the person you are working with asks this

question then work if they're interested.

Work.

And frequently, like, I'm
often not interested in, for

example, Marvel characters.

I'm, I'm, I'm not interested.

I, I'm, I'm not interested in Minecraft,
but I am interested in this child and I am

interested in helping this child to talk.

So I must develop some interest.

Their interest.

So I will get on Wikipedia and I will
look up some things about Minecraft

and I will, so that I can have at least
the beginnings of a cocktail party

conversation while we're walking along.

And then I can say to that person, I
meet you in your world, can you meet?

That's it a little bit in my world.

Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's

Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge.

Rupert Isaacson: The bridge.

That's always

Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge
to go into the world.

And then let's see if you c
can follow me into my world.

Right.

And it's yours too, but.

At that point.

But you have

Rupert Isaacson: to go first.

I, I think this is, yeah.

This is often missed by people
in the therapeutic world.

It's our job.

Your job.

My job to go first into their world.

Someone's coming into
your world right now.

That was it.

Gitti Berkhoff: Some, somebody's
coming into my world now.

Rupert Isaacson: Is he
coming to take you away?

Because I know.

I think so.

We

Gitti Berkhoff: have to go to Berlin now
and to talk about horse and to meet this.

Can I tell you to, to meet Dole?

Yeah.

So tell us

Rupert Isaacson: what you're
about to go do in Berlin.

Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, we, we want to
go to Berlin and we have meeting

with politicians and with Mr.

David Doyle.

And In Bundestag?

In Bundestag?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

In the parliament.

In the Parliament.

What are you doing?

Tell us.

Gitti Berkhoff: Henry,

it's, it's in Berlin.

It's a parliament ca

horses about horses, and they meet.

David Doyle and he can tell about
his concept in Ireland, in Li Kin and

that the government in i in Ireland is

Rupert Isaacson: they support

Gitti Berkhoff: supporting
that with money.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Gitti Berkhoff: And

is coming there.

And a lot of people, they
want to talk about the.

The, the value of horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

The, the, the value, the
social value of the horse.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And, and what is, they are more than
sport horses or therapy horses or, okay.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: This is fascinating.

Tish

Gitti Berkhoff: is breeding.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And what is, what about nature
and what about living people and

working and clients are working
like at David's place, you know?

Wow.

And we want to bring this idea
to Berlin, to the parliament.

Wow.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

This is extraordinary

Gitti Berkhoff: today.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So we need to give a little bit of
background here for some listeners, if you

haven't heard of David Doyle in Ireland.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You need
to go on Google right now.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And type in David Doyle.

Lisett, L-I-S-K-E-N-N-E-T-T.

That farm has pioneered our equine
assisted work to the point that he

proved to the Irish government that
over five years he could work with the

most violent, difficult young adults
who needed up to four minders with them.

And through our methods, he could bring
that number of minders down to one, which

saved the government about one and a
half million euros per client per year.

And of course, not only does
this happen through joy and.

Healing.

But of course, from a government
point of view, they're interested in

money, they're interested in numbers.

David Doyle is too shy to come on
this podcast, although I'm hoping

that one day we will be able to get
him on to talk about his work there.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, and as he, he was the one
who's pioneered the work in Ireland

to be now underwritten by government.

So they now pay for horse
boy movement method.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

And now we are allowed waiting

Rupert Isaacson: for a
knock on effect in the eu.

So how did you manage to get David
Doyle to the German parliament now?

Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, analyst,
do you want to tell this?

Because we have the problem
that our train is going in.

Rupert Isaacson: You know what?

You know what?

Don't worry about it.

We are going to have a follow up episode.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

When you come

Rupert Isaacson: back from Berlin,
we're going to do this again.

Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.

And then tell about he was, I
wanna know the story was, was

David Doyle in, in, in Berlin?

Then we can talk what happened.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Gitti Berkhoff: And yeah, it's, I'm,
I'm excited to, to be, to go there.

Rupert Isaacson: So this is
extraordinary, viewers and listeners.

So what GIS saying is we have to end the

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Interview
now gi 'cause we've got bored.

GI and husband can get on a train.

Yeah.

He's the Irish, he's rejected
now to the German parliament to

basically get the German government
to support equine assisted work.

This is incredible, guys.

Absolutely incredible.

Will you come on?

How long, when do you
come back from Berlin?

Henrich Berkhoff: On Tuesday afternoon.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So we need to do round two
of this interview then.

Yeah.

We'll do a second installment and
we need to know what happened.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yes, of course.

It is a good, nice thing.

Today we have a meeting with Clarissa.

She's also there.

Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

She's coming with us.

Henrich Berkhoff: This is another

Rupert Isaacson: person that
we need to get on the show.

Absolutely.

Henrich Berkhoff: Absolutely.

And the, what is so
successful is a method.

Okay.

But the people and the all the
tribe, we are together, all this

people have the same thinking
and they have the same ideas.

Hey, they see what can happen if we
stay in nature of this in movement

Gitti Berkhoff: and everybody can have a
toilet brush at home to the toilet brush.

Use it in a different way.

Are you gonna take a

Rupert Isaacson: toilet brush to the,
to the German parliament and interview

them and throw toilet water on them?

Henrich Berkhoff: Not
in the first round, but

Rupert Isaacson: maybe when
you get to know them better.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Well

Rupert Isaacson: listen guys, in
that case, I don't want to keep

you go and do this important

Gitti Berkhoff: catch the train now

Rupert Isaacson: and we will do round
two of this interview when you get back.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Gitti Berkhoff: Thank you for having us.

Rupert Isaacson: Best of luck lads.

Henrich Berkhoff: We, we sent
a picture tomorrow evening from

the Irish pub in Berlin Okay.

For you.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Don't have any fun.

Yeah,

Henrich Berkhoff: no, it's
never, it's always work.

Gitti Berkhoff: Main rule.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Alright, well in that case, I'm going
to stop the record button and say

goodbye and thank you so much for coming
on and good luck in the Parliament

and we will find out what happened.

Henrich Berkhoff: Bye bye.

Bye bye.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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