Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

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It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back rockers.

We have Dr.

Mark Uranga here from Idaho.

And if you're worrying, wondering,
not worrying, wondering where

the name Uranga comes from.

It's Basque, Basque Spanish well,
so Basque French, which is this

interesting corner of the Atlantic,
semi Celtic Fringe in Europe.

And some of you may know that there
was a large scale immigration of

Basque Shepherds to the United States
in the 19th and early 20th century.

So there is an interesting subculture and
I went and did a training in Idaho last

year and was lucky enough to meet Mark
who brought his mule to the training.

And the mule was the
Star Fi show for sure.

And, mark intrigued me because
as a doctor and a pediatrician,

he has some interesting insights
on the work that we all do.

And I think it is always useful
for us to know that doctors

actually do support this stuff.

And, you know, don't, don't just
roll their eyes and say, well, you

guys are just playing with ponies.

So it's, it's nice that we have a
chance to get 'em on here and ask him

why, why does he think that equine
assisted stuff is, is, is valid?

What does it do?

And so on.

So without further ado, mark, who are you?

What do you do?

And yeah, take it from there.

Mark Uranga: Well, thank you first for
all the work that you do to advance the

idea that there's growth to be had for,
families and for children outside of a

clinical model, specifically speaking,
one confined to buildings and to

people with different types of degrees.

My background is, as you mentioned,
as a Basque Idahoan, and I don't

know that I can separate the two.

I was born and raised in Boise,
Idaho, and from an early age,

thought I might be a veterinarian.

At about the age of 20, when it was time
to take the test for veterinary school or

medical school, I felt drawn to a little
bit richer involvement with families and

complexities of human-centered medicine.

And from there I went to medical
school and trained in pediatrics,

and I've been practicing for about 14
years in the Boise area, a year or two

before that in New Hampshire and the
richness of the clinical environment.

Is something that I treasure every day.

It is not always the place to make
inroads for people that struggle to

sit still or to be in a confined space.

But it is a place that about
20 times a day, I test the

interactions with children,
adolescents, and their caregivers.

And the, the draw of that for me was
initially to show parents how interacting,

even in moments of time can really help
children feel more safe, more comfortable.

Clearly the, the pediatrician's office,
if any of us remembered, it's mostly

about shots and it's mostly about
inconveniences and fear, either because

of going with illness or getting a shot.

And some of our training, I was
lucky enough to have mentors who.

Emphasize the value of
making a child comfortable.

And what I quickly found is that a
comfortable child is a more reliable

patient, somebody that I can learn
their nuances much more quickly.

I think that having been drawn to
pediatrics, it came from a background

where I was lucky enough, as you
mentioned, to grow up in a kind

of a community within a community.

So in, in current life, a lot of
us aren't around children anymore.

And I was lucky enough to go to a
daycare from eight weeks old to about

12 years old where an Basque woman
modeled the interactions with children.

And I was surrounded by little kids at
a time where I didn't have necessarily a

lot of cousins or 10 siblings or anything
like that, but that early experience

helped me be comfortable with children.

So.

As I was modeling that in, in clinic,
it, it's become more and more clear

that this communication that we
develop in moments within a, a clinic

visit, really makes a difference
in the interactions with a child.

Rupert Isaacson: You said
you were lucky enough.

I, I don't hear many people say, I was
lucky enough to go to a daycare, you know?

So clearly that was a positive experience.

What is special do you think about the
Basque approach to children and family?

Mark Uranga: It's a, it is a
great question and one that I

I've had a couple opportunities to
explore that well think growing.

The Basque culture has always been a
little stubborn and has also been defined

by a language that doesn't easily, it's
not a romance language by background.

So the, the overlap with invaders
or visitors from Roman elsewhere was

more problematic for the conquerors.

And so there's sort of this history of
a, of a little bit of nuanced and, and

more isolated approach to, to community.

And within that, the, the family
becomes a really important kind of seed.

And so as many immigrant stories are
families coming over, came with different

attachments different sponsors and
the sort of things that allowed them

to start to thrive in our community.

And as I grew up, my
grandfather was an immigrant.

We're so, we're removed from the immigrant
experience per se, but the, the culture

that that followed, that was one in
which grandparents knew grandchildren and

grandchildren were friends with cousins.

And, and so the modeling and that.

Combined ability to reach out yet feel
protected is something that I think is

really well modeled in our community here.

Now, having maintained a connection, the,
the very social, the hyper social model,

I would argue within vast society really
is one that encourages a give and take

at the daycare and younger age level.

And simply by I suppose absorption
of those ideas, it just felt

more comfortable, I think, to be
around children and to allow those

children to drive towards their
areas of interest and and comfort.

Whereas in a, in a group that's maybe
a little bit more nuclear family

or family centered, where it's been
kind of gratifying or I suppose it's,

it's been held up as a standard.

A single adult or maybe two adults
will provide the role modeling and the

limits and the interactions outside
of the family can be more limited.

I think a, a community oriented upbringing
allows people to see those different

models and to feel more comfortable
within a time where, you know, an

8-year-old is carrying around an eight
month old and these things that, that

don't always happen so much anymore.

Rupert Isaacson: Is that was, that
was what was going on at your daycare.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Yeah.

Certainly.

That's very some of that unusual Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: In our culture.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Quite unusual in the American
culture that even in, within many

daycares it's, you know, the kids
under one year and then one to two.

Yeah.

They do a different thing 'cause
they're walking and more mobile and

then there's this kind of napping
age and the age after kindergarten.

So yes, it, it does
isolate those peer groups.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting,
I mean, it seems to me what you are

putting a finger on here is tribe.

Mm-hmm.

Would you say?

Yeah.

Mark Uranga: Yeah, yeah.

And, and tribe is something that.

Has value and has downsides.

But I think that the, the value
in tribal upbringing, as it were,

is that trusted adult that adds
something to what a parent's offering.

The increasing responsibilities
that you touch on in a lot of your

work, the, the learning that goes
along with that so that it's more an

experiential approach to especially
social problem solving, I think.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel also that
I mean not all tribes are nice tribes,

but let's assume that you had a good
exp it, it seems that you had a good

experience so, that this tribe is good.

Do you feel that the Basque
community is particularly good

at letting things be child led?

And if so, why might that be?

Mark Uranga: I, I do believe that and.

Much, much more clearly in the,
the current European bas, the

ones who are still in, in Spain
and, and somewhat in France.

And I think that's because they want to
keep talking to their adult friends and

let the, the children have their space.

I think there's that recognition
that their safety mm-hmm.

A, a given plaza or a, a shared common
space where things are safe, but there

are, there are conflicts, there are
sharp edges, you know, there are things

that, that scrape knees and, and hurt
feelings and, and those sorts of things.

But they're in a, in a location where
they can recover from that with a

still, with a feeling of, that's

Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

So, so why do you feel that
that kind of tribal model builds

resilience then, as you say, so,
scrape knees and hurt feelings.

You know, we are so shy of that stuff now.

We, we think we, you know, people
are really quick to jump to

immediately to trauma, you know?

Yes.

Rather than, and then of course, now
there's interestingly a movement coming,

saying, well, yes, but there's a whole
kind of growth after trauma thing.

Mm-hmm.

You know, getting scraped me
in and hurt feeling as a kid

isn't necessarily traumatic.

It might be unpleasant, but it's also
kind of necessary preparation for the,

for what we're gonna meet in the world.

What, again, just I'm intrigued by
your experience as a basc, um mm-hmm.

And then how this has informed
your approach to pediatrics and the

equine assisted world, which we're
gonna come back to in a minute.

But I do think this is
great context for people.

'cause not everyone is coming out
of this kind of tribal background,

particularly in the west, you know,
so you're quite unique in this way,

and I think there's a lot to offer.

I want to sort of mine
that vein for a while.

So when you say sharp edges,
you know, scrape knees hurt

feelings, but in a safe space.

Can you, can you elucidate a bit
more on what you feel the value of

that is and what that leads to in
adolescence and adult life for people?

Mm-hmm.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

I think that, that we have lost, that
graded did experience of living of the,

the things that I learn where I'm not
protected, but where I can recover.

So there's, as you mentioned, that
the trauma literature, which is an

area that affects d different people
differently and can be expanded by its

scope to include things that are more
an opportunity for growth in some people

than an opportunity for destruction.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mark Uranga: And what.

Even within the, what I'll call allopathic
medical literature, the literature

that's largely informed by MDs and people
with degrees and these sorts of things.

Um hmm.

The, the paradigm about mental health
or, or resilience does start to include

some ideas that the practiced resilience,
the, the times that somebody had

recovered from trauma, as it were Yes.

Is that, is it builds that resilience.

An example is, is well known within
pediatrics now, where children who are

seeking an independent experience, let's
say in Idaho, maybe walking to the store

to buy some tic-Tacs or whatever it
is, you know, as a, as a trauma focused

society, our first thought would be cars.

Bad people.

What if they don't have the right change?

All these sorts of things.

As a resilience associated paradigm,
we look at that as the opportunity

to to interact with somebody that
might cut in line to, to have to

figure out the math on their own.

And, and these early steps are the
same things that, that apply when a

high school senior doesn't get accepted
to their number one choice of school.

And if everything has been bubble
wrapped up until that first negative

experience, then there's no, there's
no practice, there's not been a pattern

of rebound that a family can, can mine
and, and then can take advantage of.

Rupert Isaacson: It's really
interesting because, you know, there's

a lot of talk, you know, people
tend to think in extremes and so.

In the sort of trauma informed world,
there's also this idea of adverse

childhood experience, you know, and,
and that this lessens the chances

of, of success and thriving later.

And, but what I find interesting
about that is so many of the people

I know who do thrive, have had
adverse childhood experiences.

And then is a scraped knee falling
out of a tree, falling off your horse,

breaking a limb, that sort of thing,
an adverse childhood experience, or is

that a just planet earth experience?

Like is have we allowed trauma
and adverse experience to now?

Become a sort of abused term that
has now sort of bled into normal

experience so that now we are afraid
of normal experience, you know?

Yeah.

Just talk to us a little bit about
the dance there, psychologically and

emotionally for the, for the sort
of, for the young growing human.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

I think one of the best areas I see
that it's just so concrete, and I think

all of us can relate to it, is the, the
child who falls in front of a parent and

what is the message sent by the parent.

So two years old, they trip on
their own feet, and is the response

concern, is it overconcern, is
it on the more negative side?

Is it mockery or something else like that?

The, the way I can predict, not based on
the fall, how that child will react, but

based on the parent's reaction, right?

So the, the mechanism is, is
immaterial to the response and.

That is where I get back
to the sense of safety.

Like you were talking about a sharp
edge, yet a safe recovery from that.

So, the child who falls and whose,
whose parent is like, oh yeah,

let's get up and keep moving.

Or too bad that happened, or, or
make a joke about not breaking

the floor or whatever it is,
you know, they, they move on.

But the, the one who's concerned
or so sad or, or anything that

child is, is much more likely to
escalate based on the signals they

receive from their trusted adult.

And I think that getting, moving forward
as we build these patterns, we basically

have experiences that are pre-verbal
and through general development.

We build upon those verbal
experiences and, and our emotions.

And yes, we add words to them, but in
the background and experience is usually

going to elicit an emotion first.

So if our experience has been to
rebound, then our first response

to a lost job or the death of a
loved one is that sense of rebound.

If it's, if it's been signaled
to us that those are traumas,

then, then they become traumas.

And I'm fortunate, I believe, to
have models in the community and

in, in parents and in others where
the, the rebound is emphasized.

And I think as you look at
this variability of what do we

call an adverse child event?

What do we call a trauma?

And the response to that as you.

Basically I, I'm a pediatrician.

I love to think of all
people as grownup toddlers.

Toddlers are just more honest.

I certainly am

Rupert Isaacson: in
that, in that category.

I've never really stopped being a toddler.

I just got bigger.

Yeah.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Right.

And, and it's true of all of us.

Some of us embrace it and so all
more power to you, Rupert, to have em

embrace that, but we have that response.

Rupert Isaacson: It's civil to deny

Mark Uranga: we have that response.

So we move forward from that based on
our experiences and it's all practice.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel that
this type of, this emphasis on

resilience in the Basque community?

I see.

I'm, I'm half Jewish.

I'm half Ashkenazi Jewish, and
obviously in our heritage, even

though I look like a Viking,
because my mother's side is Viking.

But my father's side is Ashkenazi Jewish.

My father looks like Saddam Hussein.

And we had this joke when they were
looking for Saddam that, you know,

I was gonna show up at the Pentagon
with him, say, look, I've got him.

And then he and I would
split the money, you know.

But the Ashkenazi experience was
pogroms, you know, it was you know,

always have to have one eye on the exit.

'cause you never know.

And how the, the, the more you
thrive as a community mm-hmm.

The more likely it is that some
busted somewhere is gonna come

along, decide to take it from you.

Yep.

So, and your community in a
nasty, bloody kind of a way.

So you.

Better kind of have options.

So you want to have family and
you wanna have family in other

countries and other cities so that
you've got lines of, of, of exit.

And if you, if you, there's always
more of them than there are of you.

So, and there is no homeland.

Now you, on the other hand, come from a,
the somewhat the opposite, but mm-hmm.

So there is a homeland.

Yeah.

However, there's lots of
invaders, you know, so.

Mm-hmm.

For those, for those who dunno,
their European history, everyone on

their dog has tried to invade the
Basque territories at some point.

Why?

Because they sit at the, at a
very, very sort of strategic

and fertile and pleasantly
climate juncture of the western.

You know, European Atlantic right
there, sort of at the top of Portugal

and Spain and the southern bit of
France, and it's jolly nice there.

So anyone who ever came through
went, oh, it's nice here.

I think I'll have some of that.

And the mountain people living there
who, as you said, you know, were

speaking a language that predates
all of these other European languages

and have been there seemingly as,
as a, as a, as a, as a composite

community, much, much for millennia.

Despite all of these tribal migrations
going across Europe and measure, hold

their own in this mountain fastness,
yet everyone tried to take it from them.

And the fact that they are still
there is somewhat of a miracle.

It's, it's not dissimilar to the
Kurds up there in northern Iraq

and Eastern Turkey and so on.

Somehow managed to hold onto that
area despite, you know, it ridiculous

amounts of, of, of, of assault.

So do that can create a certain
bitterness or it can create a certain.

Let's seize the day and live type.

And, and, and we've survived this
long, so probably we'll survive again.

And from the pogrom point of view
is, well, they killed so many of us

that we sort of whittled down to,
you know, the special forces now.

So, you know, we're
quite good at survival.

Mm-hmm.

Do, do you feel that that is there,
is there a bit of a heritage that way?

Like you bit the Native Americans
of Europe, of Western Europe in a

funny way, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Just, just mm-hmm.

Talk through that idea of resilience and
survival a little bit for us before we

go into actual equine assisted stuff.

Mark Uranga: Sure.

Yeah.

I, I think you get to both of
those, having a creation story

or a creation myth, depending on
how you'd like to think about it.

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: go on.

That's

Mark Uranga: interesting.

The, the creation story.

We all have a creation story.

I, I love the, the nexus
of how my creation story.

Interact with the creation
story of the Idaho Basques or

the, the Basque country itself.

Your story of migration continuing
as long as written Torah stories were

placed, the, the Jews were on the
move, and you've moved from South

Africa confidently to, to Germany and,
and how we each fit in these stories.

The relationship, I believe to, to
parenting and pediatrics lies in a

concept of what is called authoritative
parenting, not authoritarian author.

Author parenting.

Yeah.

Okay.

How is that different from
authoritarian Exactly.

So, and different from passive
parenting or permissive parenting.

The middle ground is that which recognizes
the variability of a child and does

not force upon them certain things, but
provides the background, the framework.

From which a child essentially
defines themselves.

So whether that definition is in
contrast to the family expectations

or in alignment, there's still a
foundation that's provided with that.

So the, the idea being that a family
exists within a community, a community

of, of basks is, defines themselves
as partly stubborn, quite social very

committed to their shared background.

And within that BASC community, defining
our family as being committed to each

other, having a shared background and
being somewhat stubborn or persistent,

those allow for our children to consider.

A model that is either in tune with
their growth or in contrast with that.

And, and, you know, all communities
have their rebels or their black

sheep, and those people are equally
as defined by their community.

I think where it provides that foundation,
there's a little bit less wallowing

around for who am I or what am I?

So where we see that, I think breakdown
in a community or in permissive parenting,

what can happen is that a child lacks the
tools to discern largely right or wrong

because somebody is, is just following
the child without that bigger view of

a goal in mind or an ideal per chance
or, or however we choose to define that.

So they, those, those children
can kind of cast about thinking.

At two.

Is it okay for me to throw food
all over and yell at mom and dad?

Or is it not okay?

And when I get to be four and five,
maybe I can do the same thing to my

teachers, and why would I expect to
follow the, the laws when I'm 15 and 16?

And, and, and lacking that experience,
that kind of defined set of values can

really lead kids to, to place of anxiety
or kind of driftless experimentation.

Whereas kinda getting back to the idea
of how a community defines itself,

itself, you're absolutely right.

As you mentioned earlier, some tribes
are not all good guys, as it were.

And, and yet if a, if a child is
given that experience within a, a

tribe of, of learning, then from the
outside world that, oh, that life is.

Better or different, they're
still able to contrast that

to their, to their background.

So I'm not sure if that
gets entirely to the idea.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

The, the, the question's also about,
I think it's, it's really good for

people to have a clear idea about
authoritative versus authoritarian.

Can you just define that?

And then I want to go to follow the child.

'cause as, you know, follow the
child is one of our, you know,

prerequisites within the work we do.

But yes, it's not follow the child
aimlessly, it's follow the child.

Exactly.

Because someone isn't speaking.

So you're not there to, if you're
not there to observe, then Uhhuh

you haven't got much to go on.

And you need to follow
what motivates people.

And, and, and that is true
whether they're speaking or not.

If you don't follow what motivates
them, then you are in conflict.

Um mm-hmm.

But.

And, and, and authoritarian
to me is defined by conflict.

You know, it's mm-hmm.

I, I grew up, not with my own family,
but with the school system that I went

through a very, very authoritarian mm-hmm.

System.

It's interesting, you know, I meet
conservative Americans and they meet

me and they think, oh, you're such a
hippie as like, you have no idea what

auth, what conservative really is.

You know, you, if you'd gone through the
school system that I went through Yes.

Where we were beaten, you know, daily,
and we were all in the military and we

were all, you know, it, it very different.

Very, very different.

Very violent, very, you know, blah, blah.

Okay.

But all that aside, it was authoritarian.

And so what it meant was that the,
there were, there were two things that

designed the school system, de defined
the school system I went through.

One was that they said, you are all
or you boys are going to, 'cause

it was only boys are going to be
in competition with each other.

We are going to set you into
competition with each other,

which means some of you will fail.

And they, they were saying this to
you at age 11 and we're gonna break

you down so that we can then build
you up and give you privileges later.

Mm-hmm.

Why would they do that?

Well, they would do that so
that a hundred years ago people

might go out and run the empire.

And that was creating an officer class
where people would go and sort of with

both a sense of personal confidence and
a sense of absolute belief in the system,

go and sort of die of malaria in the
Sudan age 30 while trying to administer an

area four times the size of Germany, you
know, just one province and deal with the

tribal wars and this and that and do, and
have the kind of resilience to do that.

But there would be a wastage, and you
saw this wastage also happening in sort

of World War I where the officer classed
the young officers first over the trench.

You were supposed to inspire
the, I say the average.

Average lifespan, you know, of a
young officer in World War One, in the

British Army was six weeks, you know,
because you had to be first over the

lip of the trench and so on and so on.

However, those that survived would then
become the building blocks of the empire.

And you can see how that
worked very well for the people

that were running the empire.

You, you, you needed a group of people
like this, but what it meant was that

at the bottom line, if you bucked the
system, if you said, I don't really

want to follow these particular rules,
you were met with violence immediately.

That it was, it.

So if you were going to go against
the authority in any way, it was

instantly physically violent.

And what a lot of us learned was to
actually cope with that and to say,

Ooh, actually I can survive that.

And.

Now, what are you gonna do?

You know, because now
I'm not afraid anymore.

However, there were others who
were completely destroyed by it.

So as obs, you know, I observed
this growing up and thought, well,

there has to be a better way.

And so when you use the
word authoritative, I like,

and I'm intrigued by that.

Could you, could you explain really to
your, what we, we can, I think we can

understand what authoritative means
but au sorry, what authoritarian means.

Right.

But let's go to authoritative.

Mark Uranga: The idea of an authoritative
parenting model or community for that

matter, really, is that there's an,
there's an expectation, there's a, a

standard that we might move toward.

It is a model that allows.

For the ex exploration that you
might think of with a permissive,

permissive parenting model.

But when, but when that child turns
to the parent, to the community to

look for an answer that they don't,
they truly do want an answer for,

they're looking for assistance.

It's willing to provide that.

Whereas a permissive parenting model
kind of renes on that responsibility, you

have a, an underdeveloped brain or person
coming to you looking for an answer.

And with a permissive model, it's a
reflective, let's say well, should I have,

should I have a cookie or an Apple mom?

Should I have a cookie or an Apple dad?

Should I have a cookie?

And Apple, a truly permissive
parenting model, would say,

well, what would you like?

Well, with food engineering
being what it is, it's a cookie.

With a, with an author authoritative
model, it would be, I think an apple's

gonna make you feel healthier, or I
think you should start with an apple.

It's, it's offering that guidance
where it's due, and ultimately all

of us look for some structure there.

We are not living in an anarchy.

You and I would like to go through a green
light thinking that somebody is not gonna

drive through the red light, you know?

Yeah.

There are clearly levels of these,
but what, what the authoritative

model provides is it gets a little
back to that safety as well.

Like if I'm lost, if I'm casting
about, I can provide you something

that will provide you comfort
or safety in the longer term.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

It, it, I was writing, I wrote a
note here as you were, it, it sounds

to me like you're talking about
service to the community that mm-hmm.

First, there's the idea
of what serves you.

So do I have the cookie or the apple?

You know, so my, my answer to that would
be, I totally get why you want the cookie.

Mm-hmm.

I want the cookie too.

Yeah.

And there will be cookies.

Don't worry.

Yeah.

There will be cookies.

Mm-hmm.

However, maybe not those cookies.

'cause those cookies are full of shit.

Right.

But how about these cookies?

But before we have those cookies,
let's talk about the apple.

Now, I'm not going to force
you to have the apple.

Right, but look, I'm gonna have
the apple and what if we had both?

What about apple and cookie?

How about that?

You know, and then I would be
prepared with, to go through a

certain amount of, nah, nah, nah.

Because I have the same Nah.

Inside me.

So I, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna
say someone else shouldn't have it.

But at the same time, I would
take a slightly humorous approach

to that and say, look, but, and
also sympathetic, like, I get it.

I get it.

They've marketed these cookies to
us and, and we are driven by sugar.

Yeah.

So of course you want it, but why
don't we also have this apple as well?

And I would hope that with that continued
thing and, and say one, you know,

there, there's gonna be no force here.

There's gonna be no, you
must have the apple or Right.

There'll be some sort
of terrible consequence.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But as you say,
the cookie may not, may make you

not feel so good and you know, maybe
you need to go through that feeling.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And when you go
through that feeling, then I'm

still here with the apple, you know?

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And someone will
say, well, Ruper, why don't you

just tell them to have the apple?

Is that because, because
then, because then the cookie

becomes a holy grail, you know?

Exactly.

And so, you know, how you tread
the line between permissive

and authoritative mm-hmm.

Seems to me about what serves you best.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And if you can appeal to the child
to say, well, what's in the child's

best interest on the end of the,
and then clearly mom and dad are

thinking about my best interest
then is it a sort of logical thing?

For me to think about the best interest
of the community, the family, and Right.

The, the note that I took there
is, is service to the community,

what actually provides for
happiness and fulfillment in life.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

I think that evidence about that is, is
increasing in a way that just makes a

lot of sense when you have a, a community
and an evolutionary perspective that

shares resources or serves each other
when we were all just barely scraping by

and caves are on a Savannah or whatever.

Those, those, what people call selfish
genes do replicate by, by providing

that service, there's the evidence
surrounding a sense of fulfillment

is universally supportive of.

A sense of service or commitment or
attunement or any of these sorts of

connection sort of ideas that when
we can place a child in, help them

find their place in that world.

I think a lot of the, the work that
you share about experiences with hunter

gatherers and these sorts of things,
these are very concrete contributions

that children make at a small age.

And their sense of attachment is, is
so much more community focused than our

world where it's in a, in a generally
speaking western world where we have

work to do, that's specialized work.

We have bills to pay that are, you
know, technical and we have projects

to do that are too skilled then.

Then the child feels a little isolated.

They lack that sense of service and
their, their kind of drive for that

leads them to look for attention.

That, that I think, often we wrongly
think is attention that wants play or

immediate gratification, whereas that
attention seeking that's so hardwired

is about finding that attunement,
finding that connection and then that

safety that I can do these things and,
and somebody's with me and watching

me and helping me through those.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

You know, I guess in the old days we had,
although, you know, we, we didn't grow

up in hunter gatherer community, sadly,
where absolutely the, the community,

everyone's in service to the community.

But two generations ago.

Most people were growing up in some sort
of family business, family farm family,

you know, or not most, but certainly many.

Mm-hmm.

With kids being included
in what was going on.

Maybe they wanted to, maybe
they didn't, but they were

certainly included, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And they were skilled from quite an
early age in not just the physical or

mental competences required in the family
tailoring business or the family farm, but

also the financials and the economics and
the balancing the books and the mm-hmm.

You know, I've got to buy in this amount
of feed and fertilizer or this amount

of cloth and, and you know, needles and
balance it against, you know, mm-hmm.

Blah, blah, blah.

And that of course seems to
have gone, you know, that, that,

that now, barring very few.

Sort of isolated communities or people
that are just lucky enough to grow up

in certain types of family business.

Now the family farm, it, it's, it's
something that almost exists in myth now.

You used twice in the last five
to 10 minutes the word attunement.

Attunement.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

And this is a word which many of, many of
the people who listen to this podcast also

listen to Warwick Schiller and Warwick
Schiller uses the word attunement a lot.

And those of you who listen to l Leanna
Tanks podcast where she's talking

about the use of attunement with
working with the criminally insane.

And how that's, if you haven't
heard that one, by the way,

listeners, you've gotta go back and.

Find Leanna Tank's interview.

It's, it's, it's, it's meaningful and
there's a lot in there that helps us all.

What do you mean Mark by attunement and
what should we understand from this term?

Mark Uranga: Well, yeah, I, I lean
heavily on, on Warwick chillers

shorthand, which he always de, he
describes as being seen, being heard,

feeling, felt, and getting gotten.

And the first parts of
that are, are very sensory.

So they are and again, with toddlers
in my life every day, I, I always

think of the toddler model when, when
a toddler approaches me, do I look at

them or am I seeing what they're doing?

When, when I come into the room,
does the toddler turn from me?

Do they make nonverbal cues
that, that they're concerned?

And again, I just think toddlers
are honest people, whereas the

rest of us have this overlay of
politeness and what should I do?

And these sorts of things.

Yet we signal these things
as well, without a doubt

as we talk to other people.

And the idea of attunement is, is with
toddlers, with mules, with horses is

that awareness that is not verbal.

I think that it can have a verbal
overlay, but the richest attunement

with adults as well is, is more of
a nonverbal, sort of a, of a dance.

And the, the role that that
plays in, in my life is.

Again, 20 times a day I enter a room and
I could have a kid that's gregarious, a

kid that's hungry, a kid that was just
told they can't be on their phone or

within, within moments, their physical
reaction to me informs which way I go.

Are they already goofy and do
they want me to make jokes?

Are they quiet?

Do they want me to use a quiet voice?

Do they do I see that their shoes
light up and they want to jump up in

the ground, up and down on the ground?

And when a child has that sense of being
seen, then they can start to develop

a sense of comfort and safety and move
away from that protective stance that

the stranger danger that's typically
going to accompany at least a physician

visit, but often any other new adult.

Rupert Isaacson: That's brilliantly put.

I think you answered it
incredibly succinctly.

The, the nonverbal cues which
we learn through horses really,

really help us with the nonverbal
cues with our fellow monkeys.

And ultimately our fellow monkeys are
much more dangerous than our horses are.

You've used the, you've referred
to the word stubborn quite

a few times as well, right?

And you, you stubborn with the
bass community, but you seem to

have referred to it as a positive.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: You've also
now included the word mule

Mark Uranga: and,

Rupert Isaacson: I know you as a
handler of a very good mule that

I was lucky enough to meet when we
were doing some training together.

I wouldn't say that Mule was stubborn.

I would say that Mule was, was a
hundred percent present and cooperative.

I wouldn't have wanted to make that
mule do anything it didn't want to do.

But I wouldn't wanna make any
equine or human do something

they wouldn't want to do.

But nonetheless, you, you, you've sort
of gone bask stubborn mule in your life.

Talk to us about that.

Why have you gone for mules?

Why do you feel stubborn is good?

What do you mean by stubborn?

Because people have different
meanings around that word.

And then talk to us a
little bit about mules.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

I, I use stubborn as
you picked up with it.

Some sense of pride,
some, some sense of irony.

It's, it's obviously quite
close to persistence and okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Perseverance, perhaps

Mark Uranga: perseverance,
persistence, stubbornness.

And it just

Rupert Isaacson: mountain people.

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Mark Uranga: Yes.

Yeah.

So the reason I like to lead
with stubbornness is because

of the baggage that it has.

Yet we flip the idea to persistent
and all of a sudden to perseverance

all of a sudden this is an attribute.

Right.

And I suppose it's the goal
to which that's directed.

The, we, we talked about
creation myths and the idea that.

The Basque people would be stubborn
enough to run off the Romans and

to stop the Moors as they came
up across from southern Spain and

Rupert Isaacson: Charlemagne and the
Franks and everyone, everyone had to go

the vi goth, the vandals, whoever it is.

Yeah,

Mark Uranga: yeah.

So, so it, it comes to define that
group and the mule I know you have

listeners of, of all backgrounds,
and it's always fun to, to step

back to the, the making of a mule.

A mule is the product of a male donkey,
a jack, and a female horse, a mare.

There can be a converse, which
could be a hiney, which is a

female donkey and a male horse.

But the vast majority
of hybrids are mules.

And the mule in our life has the value
of being one of the most surefooted

of the equines in the mountains.

So Idaho has.

The largest wilderness area within
the contiguous 48, the lower

48 states as it were in area.

I've been lucky to move through as we
talked about movement and experiences.

Mm-hmm.

As hunter gatherers, I've shared those
experiences with many people in many ways.

And as our family got into equines
that lure to be able to safely

travel through rugged country is
what drew us to work with mules.

And the, that stubbornness is
also a sense of self preservation.

So the background of the donkey
is more a mountainous breed to be

around cliffs and other places where
standing their ground was an option.

And it was not the steps of Asia where
flight is always the survival mechanism.

So the mule.

And we, we get the pause,
the stubbornness as it were.

And, and I remind myself and my
kids that, that we want this in

our mules because their sense of
self preservation keeps us safe.

And I think one of the fun things that
I've come to learn, we, in our family,

we have a, a Navajo pony, we have an
appaloosa horse, we have a mule, two

mules one of which may or may not be a
Henny, but those, the mule will pause.

And usually with the attunement that we
have developed, carry on for example,

through a goalie that maybe smells
a coyote or through something that's

changed in the environment from when they
walked out to when they walked back the

horse, our ponies, there are times where
we will use them to lead because they.

Again, with that attunement that
we've built, we'll be willing to

override their sense of hesitation
to try to move through something.

Whereas the value of the mule in our
area is really to take that pause.

They see all four feet and they
can move slowly and and safely

through those environments.

And Sam came to us as a, a purposefully
bred mule who lived with a, his previous

owner for 20 years approximately.

And the time you saw
him, he was 27 and Wow.

Wow.

He looked so good.

Yeah, he looked so good.

And he as you know, he's,
he's a willing mule.

And, and that's because what people
have ha have asked of him in the past

have been safe questions have been
trustworthy questions, largely speaking.

He's not been forced, he's not
been compelled to do something and.

It's, I, I, I hear this in your
background from a military school of

breaking somebody down and building
them up and the old breaking a horse.

You know, I guess it still exists
somewhere, but we've been lucky enough

to have models and yeah, mentors
who start horses who, who, who meet

the horse where they are and, and
move forward with that goal in mind.

And, and Sam came to us largely in that
path and, and we've been lucky enough

that Samuel continues to help us grow.

I love that he's

Rupert Isaacson: called Samuel.

Yeah.

Right now let's go back to
the word stubborn, though.

Stubborn can mean in its pejorative
sense, in its negative sense.

Unwillingness to change basically, right?

Unwillingness to take on new perspectives,
which of course is not a way of self

preservation because you know, when the.

When, when the Vikings or whoever are
coming over the hill, you can't say,

well, they're not coming over the hill.

Or, you know, I've lived here and this
is my grandfather and my grandfather

before him was on this land.

And yeah, I know dude, but
there's like 8,000 dudes coming

over the hill waving xis.

So you know, how about
we make a plan B or C.

Mm-hmm.

Or D.

Mm-hmm.

And the people that could make
the plans, you know, A to e were

more likely to survive than the
one who said, I will not move.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: We love to think of the
kind of Gandalf, you know, you shall not

Mark Uranga: pass,

Rupert Isaacson: you know?

But then again he did get killed
when he did that with the bowel rock.

And there might be a time for
that type of self sacrifice.

And of course, you know, we, we also
assume that Gandalf is coming with

a certain amount of self-confidence
of magic behind him, and he

happens to know the king of the
Eagles who happens to come along.

So, you know, he's got,
he's got, he's got backup.

And he wouldn't have stood there
with his stuff and done that if

he didn't feel he had backup.

So.

You are not using the word
stubborn in that pejorative way.

Yet nonetheless you are using that word.

And I feel that when we're
working with particularly

people on the spectrum mm-hmm.

Who are in the less flexible stage of
their life, and I talk about this a

lot with my son Rowan, who's 23 now.

He's here in the house.

You know, he'd be the first
to come up and say yes.

When I was young, I was
incredibly inflexible.

I made it extremely stressful on
everybody around me and myself.

It's just that I didn't have any choice
in the matter because that's where my

brain and my nervous system were at.

But little by little I
learned to be flexible.

Mm-hmm.

Talk a little bit about the dance between
stubbornness and flexibility because.

There are nuances there that I
think deserve to be explored.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And then I want to,
to talk a little bit about how you've

gotten involved in equine assisted work.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And then we, I
want to go into a little bit about,

as a pediatrician, what you see as
the value of equine assisted work.

So let's start with that dance
between stubbornness in the

pejorative sense and flexibility.

And then let's go to
mules and equine assisted.

Mark Uranga: Perfect.

Well, I think one of the patterns
that I see in pediatrics and these

interactions, you know, throughout the
day is somewhat of a default coping in,

in all of us at a first level of stress.

Are we, do we cry?

Do we dig in?

Do we, do we freak out?

Do we shut down?

And the idea mule is a great
example of this and not always

because they have the horse as well.

And so sometimes it goes to flight,
but, but a tendency to just stop.

Like, this is not okay, let's stop,

Rupert Isaacson: stop and observe perhaps.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

And that, that starts, that, that plants
the seed of stubbornness, I suppose.

So if that in a person persists
and we stop and we do not change,

then what is an acceptable coping
strategy becomes a maladaptive

coping strategy, I would suppose.

And the same, you know,
can be true of flexibility.

If, if I change at a whim every, you
know, passing pad, then, then I've

lost a sense of self and where I
might move forward with something.

So the dance, and it's a dance as
I mentioned, I think I see with

every kind of identity or coping
strategy or however a person would

think, is that time where it serves
us well are in, in kind of bulking

as it were, or stopping, am I safe?

Is it safe to continue?

Now I can move on.

That is where I, I think, I
hesitate to think of stubborn

as always maladaptive, right?

And I, and I do, you know, it gets to
the nuance of definition, but I think

that it's fair to call it stubborn
first because I do believe that it's,

that it becomes persistence when it's
adaptive and that it, it becomes a

bad thing when it, when it isn't.

Like you said, you just hold fast
to something that is a lost cause.

That, that's not so good.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And I think the reason why it was
good to have hear you explore that is

because for a lot of people that are
working with you know, inflexible,

neuropsychiatric, cognitive conditions
you know, I, I had no choice.

I was a dad and I found
myself in that situation.

So I just had to cope and
I had to figure out a way.

So obviously what I did is
I went for mentorship and I

went for mentorship with Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she said, do these three things.

I did those things and they worked.

So, you know, so my persistence and my
stubbornness is like, I will not give

up on this child in this situation, even
though it's beyond my current resources.

What I'll do is I'll look for someone
who's got those resources and I

will have them, you know, mentor me.

A lot of the people that are working
with special needs, needs, they may not

be coming out of this type of situation.

So let's say you are an 18-year-old
and you are finishing college and you

decide, or, or just you're going out
into the way say, I I like this world.

I, I, I would like to help these people.

I myself am adolescent, which
means I come with a certain

inflexible mindset, you know?

Right.

And because my amygdala is still
not, you know, our, our brains are

developing up until the age of about 25.

I mean, they're always developing,
but you know what I mean?

There's, there's these imbalances
between the amygdala and the, the

hippocampus and the prefrontal cortex
that don't really even out for a

while, which is why, you know, we,
we are rocky and self-absorbed as,

Mark Uranga: as adolescents.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.

And we, we come by it, honestly, you know,
it's just how our brains are developing.

And then we kind of cool out a little bit.

But many people are, you know, as
young people are going into the field

before, really their own brains have,
have gone through these changes.

Mm-hmm.

And then horse people, we horse
people and notoriously close-minded.

Mm-hmm.

It's, it's, it's a, it's a drum
that I thump a lot because I, I'm

a great believer that all horse
people should go and learn other

disciplines of hoarseness mm-hmm.

All the time.

Rather than saying, I don't do this, or
I don't use nose bands, or I don't use

bits, or I won't do this, or those cowboys
are terrible, or that hunter jumpers

are terrible or that this is terrible.

That, that's you won't know
until you go and learn it.

If, if you think it's bad,
go learn it and then decide.

I'm often encouraging people in our
trainings to say, if you are asking

Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: People who
have difficulty adapting.

To do really difficult things
like communicate or mm-hmm.

With a horse, go into that trailer,
which is a big dark hole, or yeah,

accept a rider on the back, or get toilet
trained if you're a kid or whatever.

Then what difficult, challenging,

Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

Thing are

Rupert Isaacson: you doing?

What language are you learning?

What difficult physical
skill are you learning?

What computer programming, scratchy,
heady thing are you trying to learn so

that, because if you're not constantly
finding yourself back at the beginner

stage of things, what tools have you
really got to lead somebody else with

two legs or four through that process?

So I like that you are talking
about the need to persist.

Mm-hmm.

How do we cultivate.

Enough open-mindedness so that
we can do what a meal does

so that we can pause mm-hmm.

And observe.

Mm-hmm.

So that, and then go
and discern ah, right.

Okay.

I guess the way down the
mountain is actually there.

Yeah.

Or, yes, it smells of cougar,
but two weeks ago, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Or yeah.

How so?

We don't wanna always override, but
sometimes we need to override, sometimes

we need to say, smells of cougar half an
hour ago, but I gotta get down that slope.

You know?

Yeah.

Alright.

Now how do I, how do I do it?

So that to some degree is
the equine assisted world.

It's, it's, it's, it's dancing.

That dance, um mm-hmm.

How do we, how do we take this
pausing positive stubbornness

Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And turn it
into looking for opportunity for

ways through dilemmas, basically.

Mark Uranga: Well, I, I think
your work does an excellent job of

providing that idea of, I have a goal
of improved communication in mind

with somebody I'm working with with
autism in an equine assisted sense.

And when I see an opening,
that's what I can go with.

When I see a pause, I reflect on
why the pause, why, what caused a

loss of that sense of safety was.

Was it something to validate?

The awareness of that is
critical for moving forward.

That being attuned to that hesitation
is what allows the next step.

So I like

Rupert Isaacson: that being attuned,
being attuned to that hesitation

allows for finding the next step.

Mark Uranga: Yeah, and I love those
times of opportunity with, with

patients, with the, the times that I've
gotten too close to their bubble and

they went from smiling to shut down.

That's in a, in a nutshell, when I'm
building that five minute relationship,

which I get, that's my time to, to rec,
to, to realize that with them, give them

that pause and, and then move forward.

And in a bigger sense,
in a relationship that.

You're developing therapeutically
or we're developing in an equine

assisted sense, those pauses and
that asking of a yes question.

This is a horsemanship, mule manship idea.

Right?

Let's ask a question that
our horse can achieve.

Let's ask a question that our
patient, that our child, that

our colleague can say yes to.

That's what builds the trust and, and that
that connection and attunement, especially

with our non-verbal learners is, is
really validating to their existence.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So you are, you're a pediatrician.

Mm-hmm.

To you, is the value of equine assisted
work as a whole, why is it a good thing?

I think

Mark Uranga: one of the biggest things it
does is, is it provides a different model.

We're in

a model in science that has a lot of
value for breaking down questions of

is this medicine gonna kill bacteria?

Is this vaccine going to save lives?

But it, but it is not as
good at the holistic pattern.

What combination of things for
a given child create progress?

We, we know that certain models a,
BA for example, and, and something

you're well aware of is one that
shows, shows promise for a number of

people, and we have outliers to that.

Are those.

We know that from the scientific
model, but what we don't always pick

up is the subtleties of the why.

Why is that person an outlier?

Was it you know, time of day person
that we're working with whatever it is.

The, the equine assisted model allows
an entirely different paradigm.

And I think that the work you do
to bring that back to all kinds of

neurotransmitters and the science behind
that validates that the equine assisted

world in, in a scientific model in
some regards, provides the observation.

Science starts with an observation
and a subsequent hypothesis, and

then a testing of the hypothesis.

And then as we is that a, a testing?

Is that.

Repeated testing, do
we get the same result?

And the observation that being
around horses helps me feel better,

helps our autistic son feel better,
allows us to take the next step in

medicine, in the, the research model
of saying, well, is there something

that we can isolate from that?

Is it the horse?

Is it the movement?

Is it the production of oxytocin?

Is it, is it just the handler?

And they could be riding a tricycle.

The medical model, the scientific
model allows us to delve into that.

But there's, there's the mystery
of the horse, the, the of the

horse that is just not easy to
replicate in my experience, I think.

We started with a horse and a, and then
a pony, and then, and then added mules.

And there's just enough more resistance
in a mule to feel a little bit more

like a toddler in that a horse, when
as I worked with them, their pause or

hesitation would tend to be more active.

And in, in my start, I, I felt confident.

Let's say we were trying a new
movement and the, the LOP starts,

well, you wanna elope, let's lop.

I, I love loping.

This is a great excuse for that.

Whereas the mule will tend to have that
pause and forcing through doesn't, doesn't

really get us to the right direction.

It's in, in the horse,
in my horse experience.

I kind of lost that moment.

Why was that?

Because the movement
allowed me to move past it.

Whereas I think that that pause that I
see in a, in a mule more commonly is, is

a little more analogous to a toddler and
and to people, you know, to our peers.

Mm-hmm.

Because there's, there's that not just,
well, I'm gonna flee the scene that's

a little more inherent to the horse.

The, the response of a mule still has
that opening for, okay, now we're both

here not doing what I would like to do.

How do we still get there?

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

So it kind of forces more
inventive communication in a way.

And I think we also all know
that mules are hyper intelligent.

They're, they're more intelligent
than the sum of their parts.

Right?

So they tend to be more intelligent
than, horses are more intelligent

than, than ass certainly than my ass.

So yourself, you must
be familiar with that.

With the poet Ogden Nash.

He was a poet American jazz age poet,
writing in sort of sophisticated New York.

And he wrote funny, often satirical
poems about everything from sort of

marriage to making a martini to, and he
had lots and lots of ones about animals

and, you know, the giraffe or the, the
lion or the elephant he won about mules.

And I love it.

It's two lines.

It's in the world of mules.

There are no rules.

Mark Uranga: Perfect.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

And to me that Oh, that's funny.

Yeah.

That really is good.

And in, in the in, I've done
two really big mountain trips

in my life using with mules.

One was in Spain 30 plus years
ago, and another one was in Latu in

the highlands of Southern Africa.

And.

What you could really see was the
discernment that the mules had

about how to handle situations.

And that if you were to try
to force anything mm-hmm.

The mule might actually react
badly and push you off the cliff.

But if you when with the mule and
did allow the pause and the slowness

and the, the mule would get you
and your stuff down or up safely.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But you had to meet
them more than halfway.

And I felt that, but it was a fair
exchange by, you know, because

I mean, they're gonna get you.

Yeah.

You are involved in a in an
equine assisted organization.

Tell us about that.

What, where is it?

What is it?

I, I know 'cause I went, you know, to do
a training there, but I'd still like you

to, to introduce it and talk about it.

Yeah.

And what do you feel the value of,
of their particular approach is

that, that, that jives with you?

Mm-hmm.

As a pediatrician, not just
as a dad who wants to do nice

things for, for kids with horses.

So yeah, tell us what is, what is
this, what is the equine assisted

organization that you're involved with?

Just start there.

Mark Uranga: Sure.

The, the organization is called
the Warm Springs Care Farm.

And it's probably the one and the only, if
you were to Google Warm Springs Care Farm,

it pulls its name from the geothermal
hot water that runs down the street,

the warm springs that heat all these
historic homes around along warm springs.

Historically, all those homes
came with enough land for

horses and a carriage house.

And the Warm Springs Care
Farm is one of the few that's

maintained enough acreage to have.

An arena and they've since added
some goats and, and chickens

and these sorts of things.

And the value, I'm lucky enough to
live on the same road and have the same

experience in my backyard, is to come
over a bench and down over a canal into

what feels like an oasis within the city.

And Warm Springs Care
Farm really embraces that.

It's not a forest based
learning environment.

It's it's an, an oasis.

And that comes with small animals as well.

Ducks, chickens, as I mentioned,
goats the, just the break that

adults, you know, we kind of, again.

Circle back a little bit to
the idea that we're, we're all

nonverbal in communication.

These emotions, these senses that
we have, we don't lose them, we

just choose to ignore them at times.

And basically crossing this threshold
at the Worm Springs Care farm, you know,

you're in a place that is a different
pace and the, the role that they play is

creating this space for growth or therapy
that is driven by the participants.

They are not so solely focused
on equine work that they don't

welcome the drumming circle.

They have a, a farm club for kids.

They they have some dance
groups and other things.

They welcomed your clinic, which
was, I think, a breakthrough

for a lot of us in the idea of
how to engage with work that is.

Demanding and compelling yet tiring.

And, and so that organization basically
provides the openness with the physical

location to make those experiences
rich for anybody that visits there.

Rupert Isaacson: You what, what, what
role do you play there and what do you

feel your insight as a pediatrician
brings to you doing that work?

Mark Uranga: Well, I
think it's is such a great

refreshing thing to be able to say,
I know of this place that is magical

that is not another appointment.

It's not another, you know, therapy
that a child is compelled to go to it.

Is something that's engaging and
you know, not all kids are engaged

in that model of growth, but the
ones who are find it so reassuring.

And I think that

with the involvement that that fortunately
I've been able to have some, not as much

as I, as I would like based on demands
of being a working dad and a pediatrician

and a, a mule owner and other things, but
that there's some, some clear validation

to that approach that within medicine
we will have patients that have not done

well in therapy, even though for, for
some people that's the right answer.

Who haven't done well in occupational
therapy building where it's a

more of an artificial environment.

Some kids thrive with what's
provided in that setting.

And the, the role I think
that, that I'm able to play is.

To advocate for the value that they
provide and recognize that as a, a

legitimate and important way forward
for, for families and, and kids, and

that it's not some, you know, hippie
thing that is just, just playing with

animals and, and not growing, but
instead it, it provides that kind of,

that crucible in which growth can occur.

Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting that, you know, we

use the word hippie in Peor here.

I say I'm total hippie, obviously.

Yeah.

As a pejorative, because of course the
counterculture otherwise known as the

hippie culture arose out of science.

You know, that the, the, the Allen
Ginsburg and these people who were, they

were all PhDs, they were all doctors.

Most of them were at Ivy League schools.

The, a lot of the people that
engendered the counter culture

movement were actually scientists.

The reason they were, experimenting
with altered states of consciousness

was for the same reason that the
CIA were and still are, you know?

But, you know, with an idea to heal
rather than to harm or control.

And yet we still have this almost
sort of slightly guilty thing of, even

though it was clear, the hippies got
it right in terms of quality of life.

Like what would you have rather
have been in the early 1960s?

Would you rather have been the,
the, the bloke who was just

chain to that corporate ladder?

Or would you rather have been a Woodstock,
you know, I mean, and, and then gone

away and founded Ben and Jerry's?

You know, I mean, which would you
rather, I'm not saying there's anything

wrong with being on the corporate
ladder, and there's also not anything

wrong with being a hippie that does
not go and found Ben and Jerry's.

But many of the hippie generation,
of course, actually did become

really good entrepreneurs as
well as, scientists and so on.

And, and really were the kind of
blaze the trail for the freedom that

we think of now as western culture
that we can clearly see in this world

where it's under threat and Sure.

Challenge.

You know, would we rather live in a,
in a totalitarian society where we

can't express these things or what
would we, well, I think we all know

what we'd rather we'd all, you know,
rather have a bit more rock and roll.

So, and this of course starts with our
children, yet we do still feel this sort

of slight guilty thing about going one.

But I am supposed to be
a very serious person.

And even though none of us ever wanted
to be, because we we're just toddlers at

the end of the day, and you talk about
saying yes, it's good as a doctor to be

able to give validation, you know, we,
we now know the neuroscience behind.

Hippy dom, why it works.

Mm-hmm.

You know, whether it's an altered
sense of consciousness and why they

work or whether it's why working with
horses through oxytocin and BDNF brain

derived neurotrophic factor, which is
actually neuroplasticity, why it works.

These things have now been looked at.

And then you can get to the more
esoteric stuff, you know, like the

HeartMath Institute, you know, looking
at the emission of photons outta

the heart and electromagnetic plus
people say, oh, that's all bollocks.

Well, I live in Germany,
it's not bollocks.

The University of Castle up
the road, which is very German.

Mm-hmm.

Did a whole study about 20, 25 years
ago into the emission of photons

from human hearts and how in states
of empathy, we actually, they go way

farther out and therefore, you know,
we do actually affect the people

around us in this really positive
way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So it's well studied.

Right?

It's well studied.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

But, but yet it.

The authoritarian thing because
we all inherited this religious

and militaristic thing.

Mm-hmm.

There's some little part of us
that did drink the Kool-Aid.

Mm-hmm.

And even though it's cultish, it is
frankly cultish feels a set slight

sense of kind of guilt for the fact
that we know that that's the better way.

So I I, I love that as a doctor, you
can, you can then say, well, look.

Yes.

While certain types of very structured
therapies will provide some answers,

there are not just a few outliers,
there are hundreds of thousands of them.

Yeah.

And yeah.

You know, my, my son did not
do well with a, BA, you know.

No.

Right.

Absolutely not.

And, and a BA people they do not
invite Temple Grand into their

conferences because they know
she's going to say, sorry lads,

but it's too limited, you know?

Because at the end of the
day's, coercive, you know, yeah.

But.

You have also talked about I don't
wanna talk about what we're against

because also I know very good a, BA
therapists and in the state of California,

you can actually get Horse Boyer
movement method approved as a BA yeah.

You know, because there are certain BCBAs
down there who believe in what we do.

So I, I don't want to be in
this sort of them and us thing.

But one thing I love that you have said
is that I've written them down, you have

said, as well as stubborn and attunement.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: You said
a place that is magical.

Mm-hmm.

You also said the mystery of the horse.

Mm-hmm.

You also said the of it all.

And yet you're a doctor
where your job is to be the,

not the, you know, not,
not, I've got, I'm sorry.

So magic mystery, being
comfortable saying, I don't know.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: When we go into
a pediatrician's office, that's

not the language that makes people
feel at ease, and yet of course we

know that this is 50% of reality.

Talk to us about that as a doctor, the
importance of magic and mystery and qua.

Why is it important?

Mark Uranga: I think that
it's built into pediatrics.

It's, there's, there's no mystery greater
than that gap sometimes between the.

The adult and the, the parent this,
the parent, I'm sorry, and the child

this like, I want this and I don't
want this and this, this, this is a,

a mystery to me what's going on here.

And, and I, I see my role as
kind of entering that mystery.

And I've, I've learned this from, from
the equine world of now, first of all,

because of my background as we talked
about and my experience, I, I have

felt comfortable with children and,
and I'm kind of enter their world.

Maybe I'm still a little, I just
like you, a toddler, adolescent,

and all these things all at once,
and I'm willing to enter that.

And then interpret for the family.

The, what I've learned as a, as an
adult learner in mules and horses

is mentors that talk me through
the process that, that, what seems.

You know, I've been called Baby
Whisper or whatever else like that.

And, and, and that's,
that's a nice compliment.

It's mysterious and it seems unachievable
to families, but when I say, well,

your baby wanted it to be rolled over
on its stomach with its chin propped

up here and, and watch, they want
this much bouncing, not that much.

Bouncing the mystery
unravels in a positive way.

What I think was somewhat appealing
in an early part of my career was

to think, oh, I'm just good with
kids, and like, too bad these people

can't figure it out or whatever.

But, but they are the people to
figure it out and it's, and it's

something that can be translated.

It's, it's not a mystery
as, as much as it might be.

And I think this is as a
learner, something where.

The way that you can transition to
an in hand PO is mysterious to me,

but, but it's, it's broken down.

And, and you, you do that
and it's, it's no mystery.

That's a, a little different than
I think the mystery I was referring

to earlier of that connection, the,
that primordial movement on the top

of a horse that takes us back to
Mongolia or, or places beyond that.

That we are something

Rupert Isaacson: ancestral, perhaps.

Yeah,

Mark Uranga: ancestral, absolutely.

That we are still a monkey
on a horse helping it move.

And, and that communication
doesn't matter.

You know, our horse
doesn't have an iPhone.

It turns out they still have
the, the mammalian drivelines

and the main mammalian responses.

And when we can practice those
with this unadultered version.

Of the mammalian nervous system.

We bring that back to these, to infants.

And, and I love the early stage where,
you know, lots of questions, lots

of TikTok videos and, and gizmos and
gadgets and, and AI assisted bassinets.

And yet it's just a baby that is
gonna respond to the same cues

that a baby 200,000 years ago did.

Is it hungry?

Is it, is it comforted
in a swaddled sense?

Is it feeling unsafe?

Is it wanting help?

Is that it's crying because it wants help.

So, so the, I think that there's a
mystery that, that we in a good sense

can break down with some of these
things with horses, a mystery with.

Babies.

And yet a sense of mystery.

The, the awe is something that I,
I don't think I lose with children.

Their their honesty, their
quirkiness, their sense of humor.

And that is, I think something
that, as we mentioned, was

celebrated in my upbringing.

But is it one of those that's a universal,
I think experience that from children in

the Bible to how children are perceived
in different cultures around the world?

I think there, there's an elevation
of that sense of innocence

and, and maybe the, kind of the
mystery that lies within that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

And, and perhaps you talk about
the mammalian sense, although

there are occasions in mammalian
things where infanticide happens.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, when the lion
takes over the pride that.

Croley goes and kills, or the, or when the
stallion takes over the herd, uh mm-hmm.

Has sex with the mares to the,
make them all abort mm-hmm.

The fetus to the next one.

And it, it, these are brutal, horrible
ways of, of serving the DNA requirements.

But you're also talking about
the mammalian nervous system.

I'd like to talk about that a
bit because the, I often call it

the mammalian caregiving system.

Mm-hmm.

The, you know, it's actually not
difficult to figure out what mammals want.

Mm-hmm.

Because whether they're
loner mammals, like tigers

Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Or whether they're
group ones like lions mm-hmm.

They do when they're young,
require all the same nurture, and

if they don't get it, they die.

But before I go there, and I want
you to talk a bit about what is

the mammalian nervous system, I,
it's useful to have it mm-hmm.

Actually sort of broken down.

Is it, this is the place, the places
that is magical, is the important

of magical, A magical feeling
place is that it's whimsical.

And what I mean by whimsical is
beautiful in a natural way that's on

a human scale, or at least on a scale
that we feel we can participate in.

And does that make us feel safe?

Because it feels like biodiversity,
which feels like abundant food, which

feels like an environment that we
can thrive in as opposed to harsh

concrete or harsh cliffs, which.

While they might be impressive,
we can't thrive in and, and

actually are threatening to us.

So is is magical in the positive sense,
whimsical meaning we can thrive here.

Mm-hmm.

And then is the mystery of the horse and
the s quo, is that actually listening?

Is that actually the, what appears
to be mysterious is, is it just

that one has to learn to listen?

You talk about the mule that
takes the pause, the mule listens.

The mule says, all right, well
I dunno what's going on here.

So let me listen with all my senses.

To try to make the correct decision here.

And then you say, okay, well, Rupert,
when you transition a horse into the

papp, it looks, it looks magical.

And I say, well, no, it's actually
300 little stages, each of

which is very logical by itself.

But when you put them all
together, it has a magical look

to it or a mysterious look to it.

But if you break 'em down, it's the same
process as any other process, but it

does require a certain kind of listening.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: To discern
those 300 little things or to

know how to approach those 300
little things with a given horse.

And then you talked about, or do we
respond well to, or, and this is, there's

a lot of studies now about, or Right.

Because it gives us a sense of
perspective IE that our, yeah.

I stand in front of the mountain.

I stand in the face of a
beautiful piece of art.

I stand in front of the, the horse and.

Feel the sense of awe, which means I get
a sense of perspective of on myself, and

suddenly I'm transported from my ego.

I'm not now hearing the little
voice in my head that's telling

me I'm shit all the time.

It's gone beyond that.

It's gone beyond me.

And now mm-hmm.

I have the sense of perspective,
which is healing because I actually

get a break from my own bs, you know?

Right.

Right.

Is that actually what's going on
with all these things and is that

why they're actually really not?

And then you talk about the
mammalian nervous system.

How does the mammalian nervous system
engage with these things as a doctor,

you know, to create wellbeing?

Mark Uranga: Right.

Yeah.

The, the starting point, I think for
that, it certainly bring, brings us back

to the mammalian nervous system and its
job, first and foremost to keep us alive.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mark Uranga: And then from there.

To help us be comfortable and
proliferate and in the, in that order.

So when we are considering any of these
things that the, the the horse, the mule,

the toddler find uncomfortable, they,
that's the starting point is the safety.

If we're not safe, we don't get to
eat a, a cheeseburger and make a baby.

We, we have not passed.

Go.

Right.

So the, the safe starting point
the combination of, and we, and we

live in the arid west and we have
both crickets and rattlesnakes.

And on a given run I could see
either, but I suppose it's DNA

and a little bit of learning, but.

The first response to a cricket on a
run is always rattlesnake, no cricket.

It's that safety first.

And but by learning on that, on
that same run as I start cross

passing more and more crickets, it's
never a rattlesnake until, oops.

Like I misjudged that one
and, and that's a rattlesnake.

But, but the role simplistically, I
think of, of the mammalian nervous

system are those two things,
safety and proliferation, okay?

And where

we

enter into somebody else's
world, a toddler, a mule, a

a nonverbal autistic child.

We need to enter providing
a sense of safety.

And if we don't provide that, then.

Any well-meaning degree approach
environment is gonna fall flat.

And so the role in healing as a
physician, that sense of kind of

the combination of mammalian brain
safety and mystery comes in is that

the trust that I build with a child is
what extends to the family's buy-in.

And in the equine assisted world, it's,
you know, you've had, you've had guests

on, on your podcast for like, you
know, Rupert Isaacson's, my last shot

and this, this quirky stuff that's not
a medicine is not, you know, covered

initially by insurance or this or that.

Is, is yet.

By providing that engagement.

And what I, I, I love, I don't live
with an autistic child, but I love

about pre-verbal chi kill children
and non-verbal children is the

authenticity of their responses.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

That

Mark Uranga: especially when their
families lived with that, they

can see what you create, what
we create in an equine assisted

world within moments at times.

Now that isn't immediately the word
count or the toileting or whatever it

is, but, but, but the safety that's
provided, the downregulation of all the

stress hormones is what then allows for
building of those other connections.

And that gets back to the idea of.

A goal, the authoritative model of it's
fun to play on ponies and playing on

ponies when we count the hoof beats,
moves us in a direction that we value.

And so that I, I was lucky enough
this, this past week, I, I work as,

as a river guide on the middle fork
of the salmon, which is a hundred

miles of Wilderness River through man

Rupert Isaacson: of many talents.

I want to come and I
want to come and do that.

Mark Uranga: Yeah, we'll
put you on the list.

You would thrive.

And with this upcoming inter
conversation I was expecting, I, I

floating through on a raft in this
wilderness area where Bighorn sheep

thrive and mountain lions and, and
this sense of awe, and I'm thinking.

Why, why?

Awe, why do I have awe?

And and I, I don't know, but I do
believe that you're right about

that humbling factor of it, the
perspective that that's provided.

Why?

I mean, it's, it's nice to
think of this as the smart ape,

the homosapiens, I suppose.

But, but what, what
purpose has that served us?

And I, I know what
purpose it serves me now.

And maybe that's what it's always served.

It's a, a purpose of recentering, a
purpose of humility and appreciation

that, you know, those rocks, we
have a lot of concerns in our world.

But, but those rocks and those
cliffs, like they're gonna be there.

They may have noxious weeds on
them, they may be deforested,

but something about that.

Is eternal.

And, and maybe that's that
sense of awe allows us to let

go of things and always had it.

It's, we think of ourselves as
extremely challenged, but how many

of us are fearful for lions behind
our back while we're still struggling

to get enough berries collected
before, you know, before we starve.

So those, those same emotions that
underlie that and that again, that

combination of how those things
move us forward is still a mystery.

And, and I think that's one of the
richness of delving into how working

with a horse or a mule can, can solve
a problem that is not answered by our.

Reductive approach or breaking apart
of pieces and numbers and substances

and neurons and all that stuff.

If we can embrace that mystery it,
I think it, it offers a, a feeling

of hope as well for families.

Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Yeah.

And let's talk about nurturing.

And then there's, there's something
else I want to return to with nature.

What is the mammalian caregiving system?

I think, I think this is really
worth drawing some attention to.

'Cause I don't feel this is emphasized
in the sort of training which one

gets in most therapeutic paradigms.

I mean, it comes with things, yes, we
want to be empathetic or we want to be.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

And we certainly wanna be good
to our horses and so on, but.

I think it's often missed
why physical nurture

Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

Is

Rupert Isaacson: so important to a mammal.

Right.

And what a horse can give with this.

Just can you talk us through a
bit the, the mammalian caregiving

system as a pediatrician?

Sure.

Mark Uranga: Mammalian caregiving system.

I love thinking about this.

In two ways.

One is the cold scientific way, and
that would be, it provides us with

procreation and advancement of our genes.

And I do believe that even within that
cold scientific kind of approach, there's

now been extensive work done into.

How that interaction relates to
things we would think of as mental

health and wellness and fulfillment
and these sorts of things.

So ultimately the, that interaction
where a baby comes out looking, quote

unquote cute, they are, and we are
programmed to consider this animal

vulnerable deserving of attention.

And that in turn leads to
that physical connection.

And, and whether riding on the back of a
horse or, or holding a toddler or dancing

with your partner, those connections
create a whole cascade of, of wellbeing.

That is what we think of as the bond.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Mark Uranga: And ma mammal, the term
mammal comes from mammary gland, which

linguistically speaking, mo most languages
that I've learned have a ma in a ma

ma ma in the mom, the ahma, the madre.

Because the m sound is just an early
phonetic sound that babies make.

And so getting back to that connection,
the first thing they're associating

sound with, we have associated
sound with as a, as a culture.

And a, a scientific pursuit is still
rooted in that, basically that request

for attention that comes from the infant.

And what we see is that in time
we've had this fluctuation of,

well, what is good for a baby?

Well, it's good for a baby to
have contact and to feel safe and.

Yet, as I alluded earlier, we have
so little experience with babies that

our first thing when we think about
their safety is not dropping them.

Be careful, don't do this, don't do that.

And, and they're treated with such
fear and tension that, that it doesn't

take long for some kids to, to kind
of already kind of internalize that.

Whereas that sense of bringing
something together, the, the night

and day difference between a an
hours old baby who's un swaddled

versus swaddled is very simple.

And, and it gets back to that connection.

And if that connection, the swaddling
occurs, and then that baby's with dad or

with mom or uncle or whoever, there's,
there's this basically a connection that

occurs that causes both parties to relax.

And one of our ongoing struggles and.

Modern medicine is, is the isolation
that occurs in, in that bonding.

So we have a baby in a hospital, which
is a safer place to have a baby than

a Savannah, but we have a baby in a
hospital and send a dyad, a mom and

a baby, and a, and a dad three, three
people home to have a isolated experience

where there's trip, you know, ideally
there are people hand off to and that

sort of thing, and, and the, those
are the, the families that thrive.

But, but our, our current model
separates that grouping in a

way that's not supported in any
prehistorical evidence or any other

kind of primate models necessarily.

So.

That that mammalian bond, the, the need
to feed a baby and to nurture them.

Our, our babies are not pre-programmed to
swim to the ocean and make more babies.

Our babies need to be fed.

They need to be nurtured.

And that

process, because it's, it's risky for the
adult, it, it's consuming of resources

and all that other sort of stuff.

It, it has evolved to
create feelings of goodwill.

Good, good feelings that, that make
us as parents engaged in that process.

And most new parents of children or new
dog parents or whatever it is, get that

early sense of attachment that this is
a different thing that I am invested in,

and that that's essentially hardwired
because that's necessary for them.

Procreation and the
advancement of our species.

So that mammalian caregiving system
is one that we, we really interrupted

in, in the modern world where we
had small family groups that were

surrounded with other babies and other
caregivers and and now it becomes a

kind of an individual stress that can,
that can be really hard to, to bear,

especially lacking any practice in it.

So we really, we recently and historically
have disrupted that, and for whatever

reason, the movements over the years
have sometimes elevated the, the stay

at home mom or the wet nurse or, you
know, name your model that was supposed

to be a better way to raise children.

And they, they've all
had their struggles and.

And when we get back to that sense of
community that we kind of started with

the other trusted adults, that's where
we see kids thrive when they have Yeah.

That variety of engaged people.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And, and the hugging, the, the, the
contact, the physical contact of course.

And the breastfeeding.

But you know, any, any of Absolutely good.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oxytocin.

Mm-hmm.

And oxytocin makes us not only
feel good and safe and soothed,

but it makes us communicate.

Right.

It's the hormone of communication.

So it's our survival strategy for
problem solving, for conflict resolution,

and making sure that we don't all
end up eaten by the hyenas, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And it seems to me that, you know, when,
particularly when people are coming from

a place of high stress, high cortisol.

Mark Uranga: Sure.

Rupert Isaacson: One of the
things a horse can do is provide

an awful lot of oxytocin.

Mm-hmm.

Either through the movement, knocking
of the hips or through the body to body

contact of such a large, welcoming animal.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
interesting though that yeah.

It seems such a mystery
when really mm-hmm.

All that's going on.

Just a reinforcement of,
of the basic human needs.

You must be, you must be familiar,
obviously with Maslow's MAs

something, call him Maslow of
MAs, some people it Maslow.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: The social, you
know, psychologist and sort of

general scientists who, who came
up with the system of human needs.

Right, right.

As you were hierarchy mm-hmm.

The hierarchy of human needs.

And as you were talking, I
pulled them up on my phone.

Mm-hmm.

So for those who don't know,
it starts, it's a pyramid.

Mm-hmm.

And it starts with
physiological needs, so.

Mm-hmm.

Water, food, shelter.

Sleep.

Mm-hmm.

Warmth, air to breathe, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And then safety needs, personal security.

I, no, violence, crime, war.

Mm-hmm.

Health and wellbeing.

Stable environment, financial
security, safety nets, you know, food.

And then only after those two
do you get love and belonging.

Only after those two can you get
family, friendship, community, romantic

relationships, group memberships.

So like those two things have to be there.

And then after that you can
get esteem, self-respect or

respect within the community.

And finally some idea
of self-actualization.

But you need all of these
building blocks in place.

What's interesting about that is
I've, I've heard, I've had, you

know, many social psychologists
in, in my family, and, you know.

What I only found out recently,
and you talk about living in the

arid West, was that Maslow himself
came up with that because he lived

with the Blackfoot Indians oh.

For about six weeks in 1938.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And he had this explained
to him and then never, never credited

the indigenous people that he'd gotten it
from, because I think he was at Harvard.

He would have been censored back then.

He would've lost his job.

Interesting.

Because, you know of mm-hmm.

Western arrogance and racism, you couldn't
say that, you know, these UGA booga

people over there had given you this.

But of course, so many of the
modalities that we use are indigenous.

Right.

So, cranial sacral work totally
came out of Native American stuff.

So did, so, did oh gosh.

Feldenkrais.

And the Feldenkrais method and
you know, it's almost what I do.

I was mentored by the Bushman, by the
son in the Kalahari, and the list goes

on and, and then of course you get
into allopathic medicine and we're

giving drugs and all of this stuff.

Well, where do we get these drugs from?

We get them from pharmacological,
pharmaceutical, pharmacological compounds,

which are actually mostly plants, which
we get from indigenous people who show

the people from the pharmaceutical
companies what works for mineral cramps

and what works for headaches and so forth.

And we get aspirin from Willow
and it's all ancestral knowledge.

And then we have bedside manner, you know.

There are doctors that kill their
patients because they're arrogant pricks.

And there are doctors that, you know,
whose patients seem to get better, even

though they didn't do as well at medical
school as the arrogant prick doctor.

Right.

Because they just have a good
empathetic bedside manner.

And that would seem to be love and
shamanism and alterative of consciousness

and placebo effect and all of these
things coming into an interplay.

And yet we, we feel we have to,
to view these things through a

sterile lens when actually Right.

They're not at all.

You are dancing that dance between
the ancestral and the modern, the

allopathic and the, and the holistic.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

The

Rupert Isaacson: mammalian
caregiving system and the clinical.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And in the
middle of this stands the horse.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

And there you are

Rupert Isaacson: on the heart and
what is the horse, of course, but.

To really, for many of us, a
personification in personality of nature.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: As we sort of, we've hit
the two hour mark here, but as a doctor.

Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: What about nature?

Do you prescribe it?

Does na a growing number of doctors
are prescribing time in nature now?

Is there such a thing as
Nature deficit disorder?

What does it do to the human nervous
system to not be in contact with nature?

You're a doctor.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

The role of a doctor is to heal.

And if we take any tool out of
our tool belt because of arrogance

or a preconceived notion, we're
already neglecting our role and.

Absolutely.

I prescribe nature.

Absolutely.

I prescribe community and
absolutely there are some families

that, that's not available.

And, and medicine has, I always talk
about the medicines that affect mood

or learning as a bridge, and it's a
lifesaving bridge for some people.

And the, the and of medicine is
recognizing ideally, and, and often I fall

short a goal of, of self-actualization,
a goal of, of getting to that best self.

And it's kind of like following the child.

Well, it is following the child.

This patient this person is where
they are, and if where they are has

homelessness and school volatility,
and A DHD and Ritalin stabilizes that,

then that's the safety that medicine
can provide to move to that next step.

And it's, it's a constant compromise.

I can't bring everybody out to ride
Sam and my clinic Samuel would love it.

And I wouldn't have the life
that I have now because it

would all be volunteer work.

But the, the awareness of that is, is
so much bigger than the clinic room.

And, and this is where.

Relying on people like yourself or
others that expand the conversation

that don't foreclose Different ways
of both providing safety and growth.

That's where families can, can
find some validation, I think.

And, and, and those families that are
able to move from change their learning

environment and integrate horses into
their learning or the movement is a

part of the learning that they provide.

That's something that I
can walk with them as well.

And I just feel so lucky to have happened
in to, to people that can expand my

horizons that allow me to incorporate
that vision into the work that.

The clinical work that has medicines,
the clinical work that has metrics,

the clinical work that, that has
numbers yet the clinical work

that always has a patient with it.

And, and that's, and that's a beauty
that's not lost in modern medicine.

It, it may be lost in modern healthcare,
but that relationship that you

mentioned that can, can help a patient
heal despite worse numbers at the

start is I know I speak for the vast
majority of my colleagues when I say

that's what keeps us here for all
the, the struggles that patients feel.

It's, it's day in and
day out as a physician.

And so when we have models
that can enrich that.

In equine assisted world sort of models,
when we can bring in something where

we're constantly learning, and I don't
get any CMEs for all the horse and mule

clinics I've done, but, but boy has it
informed my ability to communicate with

families and when, when those things
combine in, in my world, serving that

patient and that family, that that
ultimate test is, is what I'm looking

to, to pass that, that meeting them
where they are and walking in that, that

journey it's, it's really rich and I'm
really blessed to have that opportunity.

Rupert Isaacson: Should all
pediatricians go volunteer at some

sort of nature-based thing to give
them that type of perspective of how

human communities thrive basically.

Mark Uranga: Yeah, absolutely.

We should all, should it be there

Rupert Isaacson: in medical school?

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Yes.

And it absolutely, and, and it,
and it is through some of your work

obviously, and, and, and others.

I think that that era of arrogant
medicine is hopefully passing and

humble, humble medicine that's not,
this is similar to the, the balance

that we talked about with authoritarian,
authoritative, and passive mm-hmm.

Guidance.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mark Uranga: There is
expertise in medicine.

There are

Rupert Isaacson: sure studies,

Mark Uranga: there are
medicines, there are are known

approaches that should be given.

When, when people are looking
for a paradigm that offers that

it should be provided, it should
be allowed that we have this.

That we have other opportunities.

What, what isn't fair to a, to a
family and to a patient is to just

give them a menu and say, I'll come
back when you're ready to order.

It's it's, this is your menu.

And or

Rupert Isaacson: worse, say,
you must go down only this path

Mark Uranga: or even worse.

Yes.

Or medications or whatever, or Exactly.

Right.

These, these either extremes are
those that don't serve families well.

And we, with a place like the Worm Springs
Care Farm and other practitioners in the

area, we are, we're lucky to, to hold
those up as options and we are quite

fortunate that we can provide certain
medicines that serve as a bridge for those

families that aren't in the, the place
of safety and security to embrace that

next step and that self-actualization.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mark Uranga: It's, it's a rich
area that that we get to play with

as, as hopefully equine assisted
work movement method sort of work.

Those things that embrace the holistic
improvement in, in function of any person

whether a neurodivergent a DHD anxious.

Those, those combination of things
are gonna be the most successful.

Rupert Isaacson: It's a

it's a great delight to hear
a doctor say this and we are

beginning to see this change.

There's a.

A horse boy Movement method center in
the UK called Move the Mind run by an

amazing person called Nicole Gillard.

And they're close to Bristol
University, which is one of the

big medical schools in the uk.

And now she gets the medical students
that she was contacted by the university.

Of course, a lot of the medical
students are horsey girls and they now

come out and the university pays her
to do their mental health electives.

Mm-hmm.

There and as you may know there's a,
a, a fairly eminent physician, Dr.

Megan Mcal

Mark Uranga: Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: In Virginia, who
is an autism mom who runs a really

good practice autism movement method
and horse boy practice called Chats.

Mm-hmm.

In Yorktown in Virginia.

But she, her work was instrumental in
getting East Virginia Medical School,

which is part of Old Dominion University.

To put on last year a neuroscience
conference specifically for pediatricians,

looking at nature-based solutions.

And we, we ran it last year with
various neurosciences and so on.

Would you, I think we're
gonna do it again next year.

Would you come and be a speaker
there and present and people could

then come and talk to you and,

Mark Uranga: yeah, sure.

I'd be questions.

I'd be honored.

I'm not sure if I'll be able
to bring Sam to Virginia.

Rupert Isaacson: You have to
at least show us some video.

There we go.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

I would be honored.

Rupert Isaacson: I missed

Mark Uranga: that last opportunity,
but, but it would be a pleasure.

Rupert Isaacson: And then
Warm Springs Care Farm.

Mm-hmm.

I presume people can find this online
if they type in Warm Springs Care

Farm, Boise, Idaho, that, yeah.

Right.

Yep.

And, you probably don't wanna give
away your private email over the,

over the internet, but perhaps

Mark Uranga: I, I'm okay.

I've actually inspired by you
and others, I've just started

to dabble in, in a podcast that
I do have an associated email.

Great.

My podcast is called The Kid
Wrangler so far it's just on

Spotify the Kid Wrangler on Spotify.

And then the email address that
people are welcome to email me at

is the Idaho Kid wrangler@gmail.com,

the

Rupert Isaacson: Idaho
Kid wrangler@gmail.com.

Brilliant.

I look forward to listening.

Mark Uranga: Yeah.

Well, thanks.

Thanks for inviting me.

I, I am largely here because of
the amazing work you're doing and,

and seeing any improvement and, and
how people do is just rewarding.

Thank you.

Shared as a community.

Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

I shall be seeing you down the trail then.

Mark Uranga: Alright.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Thank you again.

Mark Uranga: Thank you.

Bye.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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