Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back.

Alright.

Many of us in the equine assisted
world are somewhat not lost, but are

not confused necessarily, but let's
say spoke for choice in many of the

options that are available to us in
terms of our horse's wellbeing and these

equine partners that we rely upon to
give wellbeing to the monkeys, to the

humans that are coming through our door.

No matter whether we're doing our work
mounted or unmounted or with direct

contact or within direct contact.

We all know that equine wellbeing is
paramount, but it can be let's say

increasingly difficult to discern
what certain bottom lines are.

And if you are someone who's come
to the horse, the horse late in

life it can be even more difficult.

And there's a lot of conflicting
philosophies out there as

always in the horse world.

So how does one bring it down to certain
denominations of fitness soundness,

mental and physical emotional wellbeing?

And how does one combine the really
solid old school horsemanship, which,

you know, has existed for thousands
of years and created, you know.

Very, very healthy horses and
newer ideas, more holistic

ideas, which are equally valid.

And how does one bring those
together rather than see

them as two separate camps?

Now I'm very lucky today to have Dr.

Janet Vaus, even though she
spells her name V-E-R-H-U-S.

It's spelt as if it was an a Va
Hus because it's a Norwegian name.

But she's not Norwegian.

She's,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it is spelled with an A

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it
is spelled with an a.

Oops.

The, I stand corrected.

I had it written as with an E.

Alright, so forget everything I just said.

It's Va Huss spelled with an A, it's
a Norwegian, but she's not Norwegian.

It's a Norwegian origin name.

And Janet has spent decades in veterinary
practice but has also been in influenced

by the likes of heavily influenced by
the likes of Linda Ellington Jones.

She'll be very familiar as a sort of
patron saint really, of what we do.

And also a dear friend of Mark
Rashid and Chrissy McDonald, who are

definitely people who have, many of
us know, have advanced, you know, the

fields of equine wellbeing a lot in
the past 15, 10, or 15 years or so.

And it's, it's rare that we get
someone who really can give us a

roadmap through the traditional
and the holistic the experimental,

the new, the old, and really.

Give us some guidance in this.

So listen up guys, because there's gonna
be tons and tons and tons of really

good practical information in here.

Don't miss out.

So Janet, thanks so much
for coming on the show.

Can you tell us a little bit
about who you are and how you came

to be the sort of vet you are?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So I love the mountains.

So when I graduated from vet school
in Iowa, I went moved west to,

to Utah where women veterinarians
were a rarity back then.

What year was that?

Do you

Rupert Isaacson: remember?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It was in, huh?

82.

What year was

Rupert Isaacson: that?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

1983.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yeah,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

actually I first went there in 82.

So I was the third female vet in the
state and the second one was my classmate

that got there two weeks before me.

Rupert Isaacson: So you like a challenge?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes, and I went to the
south end of the state.

So, seven years later I moved to Montana
and I was still the only woman south

of Provo, which is 300 some miles.

Okay.

So I practiced after a year I
practiced in my own clinic solo.

'cause I had met my husband in Utah.

And so I stayed and opened my
own practice for six years.

Which was, was rough being in a rural
area and being a small, petite woman.

But we moved to Montana and I
call that my childbearing years.

So I had two kids.

Mm.

And then his job moved us to Colorado.

So we've been here for over 30 years now.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And just tell us quickly
what your husband does.

'cause I think that also
gives a bit of context to your

life there in the mountains.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

My husband's a civil engineer and
he worked for the Forest Service.

So that at least brought
us to really pretty areas.

Hmm.

And and it was, you know, we live up
in the mountains now in Salida and it's

been great 'cause I can be at a trail
with my horse in about 15 minutes.

Mm-hmm.

So it's, it's a nice area.

It, so I ended up working as
relief for a few years and then

I joined an older rancher vet.

And you know, I, I love the old school
and, and I was so impressed with how loyal

the clients were and how, how loving,
you know, the community was to him.

And eventually he was well in his
eighties when he retired and I.

Bought it out the practice
and built a new clinic.

So I had my own practice
for about 20 years.

And through this time as you
said, when I was in Montana,

I met Linda Tillington Jones.

And I guess the backstory, when I was
in Utah, I got into endurance writing.

So Dr.

Kerry Ridgeway and Linda Tillington
Jones were big in endurance at that time.

Everyone pretty well knows Linda and Dr.

Ridgeway was a chiropractor, an
equine chiropractor early on was

very active in the endurance.

Ended up developing an acupuncture
technique to release fascia.

So they, they were my heroes, my icons.

And in 92, my daughter was five weeks
old and I loaded her up with my horse

and went and met Linda Tillington Jones.

And you know, basically changed
my trajectory with horses.

And and so then I've, you know, worked
with her ever since, well, with about

a 10 year hiatus of raising kids and
and have got to know her really well.

And so over the years, my dream
was to work with these two people.

And I would say they
influenced me very early on.

Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask
you a couple of questions.

Obviously, I'm Linda's a one of our
dearest friends and, you know, has

generously, generously supported all we've
done with Horse Boy Method and our other

programs, basically since the get go.

And as you know, she's one of these
people who gives of herself massively,

and we've had her on the show.

So for those listeners who don't yet
know much about Linda Tillington Jones,

you really, really need to, and please
go listen to that, to that podcast.

There's actually two of them,
one on this show, one on my other

podcast live free, ride free.

But just right now, for those listeners
who are less familiar with her, can

you give me sort of in your own words
what you, what drew you to Linda?

Because I think this is gonna help people
to understand where you stand as a vet

and what, what do you feel her work does?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Well, what drew me, I mean, she
was just a front runner in, in ways

to work with horses that probably,
you know, resonated with me.

Mm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And and the interesting thing as I've
moved through my career and learning

more and more modalities, I've learned
the scientific justification or proof

of so much of what she's taught.

And I guess for my science brain,
I'm not into evidence-based medicine

so much, but I really appreciate
seeing the science back, the things

that she's taught for so many years.

Rupert Isaacson: What, can
you be a bit more specific?

What science have you seen
that that backs what she does?

Again, this is helpful for re
for our listeners, I think.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

Let me think of, well, the most
recent I did a posture rehab course,

which was pretty mind blowing, where
it combines basically everything

I know into posture and how that's
affects the wellbeing of the horse.

And Linda so much emphasizes, you know,
relaxing where the head's at getting

them to relax in the neck bringing
their head down having them feel safe.

And all that strengthens their
back, brings their back and the

belly lifts bringing their back
up opening up the, the withers.

So with kissing spines, you know, you
have to open up the, the withers and,

and it's just, it's the reason, part of
the reason that things change so fast

is because when their posture is better,
they're in a more sympathetic state.

So it just becomes this circular
thing of the horse feeling safe,

being relaxed, being in good posture
and then able to function in a,

you know, whatever they need to do.

So, it's, it's just been kind of a
little mind blowing, but, you know,

I never doubted what Linda taught.

It's just nice to see it

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Validated.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think we'll return to her a
couple of times in the course of this.

One of the other things which listeners
you may not be aware of Linda pioneered

something called T Touch which she
actually learned from it had come down to

her from effectively Russian gypsies as
a way of calming horses and making horses

feel good in challenging circumstances.

And she tells that story
herself on the podcast.

I, I don't want to steal her
thunder, but it's very interesting

how these lineages come down.

If you think about what Russian
gypsies are or were, those, were

the people of the step who of
course were the first force tribes.

So of course knowledge coming
from there would be useful.

But it's so easy to lose.

The thread of where the actual
horse tradition comes from.

You know, we, we all who ride horses ride
horses that basically go back as a genetic

throwback as far as we can see, to a tribe
called the Cinta who were living somewhere

in that region of western Russia.

Or at the beginning of the Bronze
age, end of the neolithic time.

So between four and 5,000 years ago.

And pretty much every horse
that we ride was Sele.

It goes back to horses that
were selectively bred for the

higher weather and trainability
by this tribe in this area.

So, you know, we are all benefiting
from, from these lines that come through.

And it can get confusing because
it can think, oh, this is a Linda

Tallon Jones thing, and Linda
herself would say, no, no, no.

It happens to have my name.

But actually it's a much older tradition
and one can see how these traditions,

of course, are so practical, you
know, horses were needed for survival.

There's no woowoo in it, even
though it seems that there is,

because if there were only woowoo,
it simply wouldn't have survived.

The people would not have passed
it down because we monkeys

are more practical than that.

We tend to get rid of
things that don't work.

So again, it's, I like what you say
about that science now vindicates what

Linda and before her, these Russian step
people, we're teaching because it just is

gonna make it more available to people.

Tell me a little bit about Kelly
Ridgeway and I'm not, I'm less familiar.

What was her work, why did it attract you
and how has it influenced what you do now?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Dr.

Carey, it was man he, he did some
endurance and then he was a chiropractor

and started studying the fascial trains.

And, and I studied with him.

I mean, he was pretty
amazing at what he did.

He was good friends with Linda as well.

And his, his goal, which he didn't
succeed before he passed, was to find

the one point that would release all
the fascia, but he was pretty close.

You know, that just a few distal
points, and you can make a huge

change in the fascial planes.

He was, he, he said in the class that when
he'd started doing this, he found that he

only had to adjust one or two vertebrae.

So as I'm not a chiropractor,
that wouldn't mean much coming

from me, but for someone who had.

Done chiropractic so many years and
one of the first acupuncturists,

veterinary acupuncturists.

That was a profound statement that
I always remember about every time

I work, you know, I just look for
the points I need to help the horse

release and adjust themselves.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what are
those points and why should we be

concerned about fascia with horses?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, I guess it's whatever doctrine
you wanna believe, but I've always kind of

thought that if you can relieve the soft
tissue, that's what pulls things away.

And and so if you don't work on the soft
tissue first, it doesn't make sense to me.

Which, like I said, I'm not a
chiropractor, so somebody may

need to educate me, but to adjust
the bones without making the soft

tissue not pull it back out of
place doesn't make sense to me.

And these points are there's a lot of
'em that are about an inch above the

ting, points above the coronary band.

And it was pretty interesting
'cause once I worked with him, you

know, once you see something, now
I, now I can find these points.

Never knew they existed.

But it, it's, I'm always surprised
and, there are some YouTube

videos he made before that.

I know there's one, there's a
shoulder point that's in the

pectorals and it will le release the
shoulder and the neck on that side.

There's a GV point, a point up in the
hip behind the lumbosacral junction

that will release the whole hind end.

And those two points right there, you've
helped release two thirds of the horse.

Rupert Isaacson: And when you, when
you release them, how do you do it?

Are you doing it through Accu?

Are you doing it through pressure?

How, how are you doing it?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You can do it all that.

I'm a acupuncturist, so I'm a purist.

I like sticking needles in.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I sometimes use a laser pointer on
the horses that don't like that.

He also developed a technique and
through an acupuncture exam to to

diagnose ulcers in horses and, okay.

His wi his widow has an online course
to do that, and I, I teach that a lot

because you don't have to scope them.

I find it pretty accurate.

And if I diagnose a horse with
withers or with ulcers, then we can

also tell how our therapy's working.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you give
us a, a bit of an a 1, 2 3 of

how you would do that diagnosis?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

There's a, there's a series of points
and I take a needle cap, which you can

take, you know, something fairly firm
and I stroke like up over the shoulder.

I always think of a, a racing saddle.

So you go around the back partway
up in the girth area, you know, lots

of girthy horses would have ulcers.

You can also stroke behind the last
two ribs and you've got liver 14 and

another point their stomach 35 down on
the midline or just off the midline.

That point can be dangerous.

I've had a horse that I thought about
checking that point and it's cow kicked.

I, I didn't even get within
a foot of that point.

And that horse is like,
you're not going there.

And then there's a point up on
the hip that depression behind the

hip bone up above the hip bone.

It, there's, there's diagrams to show.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But it, it's, and if it's on both
sides, you tend to make what tells you

Rupert Isaacson: when you
are, when you are on those

points that Okay, it's ulcers.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

So then those points
are specific for ulcers.

And so I'll always check a horse.

At the beginning to find out, because
as Mark Rasht has said, horses can't

separate physical from emotional.

So a lot of horses that are floated
hot or hard to handle just have ulcers.

And if we address those, and those
horses don't usually like needles.

So I'll use my laser pointer.

Okay.

And once I treat those points, they'll
calm down and I can do whatever I want.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what I'd like
to know though, is when you go to

that point with your needle or with
your laser pointer, what in that

point tells you, okay, it's ulcers?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Well, it's the series
of points that I check.

Is it a reaction

Rupert Isaacson: in the horse?

Is it the feeding tissue?

Yes.

The horse will react.

Okay.

They'll be tender.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Okay.

They'll be so with an acupuncture
exam you check reactive points.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And then that will tell you help you
pinpoint where the pain is, which is,

it's really sad that in traditional
veterinary medicine, they don't

teach this information because it
opened up a whole different world

for me on diagnostics with my hands.

I I, you digressing to dogs.

I had a dog come in
that was not doing well.

Pretty vague.

Nothing.

He was real acute.

So.

I was trying to decide if I
should do blood work or treat

it symptomatically and its liver
points on its back were very tender.

So I did blood work and the dog ended
up in early liver failure and, you

know, I would've totally missed it.

So those are the kind of things that I'd
like to teach the owners because you can

tell a lot about the horse and how you're

Rupert Isaacson: doing.

So you, you can teach owners to go
over various points in their horse.

Yes.

See what the reactions are, and
then if they get certain reactions,

what would then be the thing to do?

So let's say they go over
these ulcer points and they

find the horses tender there.

Okay.

Maybe the horse has ulcers,
then what's the next stage?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I like to use laser pointer.

And, and I There are specific
points then on the body that

you can, acupuncture or laser.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And those will help relieve the ulcers.

Rupert Isaacson: Even, even as a
non-qualified practitioner, as a horse

owner, you could learn to do this.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You just you know, by law veterinarians
put the needles in, but you can use a

laser pointer, you can use a pressure.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

You can use your, your fingers
or your thumb or touch.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Acupressure is, is a lay person's.

Rupert Isaacson: Technique.

So the reason I'm very encouraged by
this is if one thinks about where you

went in, which was endurance, you know,
endurance of course, that the emphasis

on fitness and soundness is enormous.

And because you're not going in there
for like a short round like you would

in show jumping or even a modern day
dressage, you, you, any, any holes

in the fitness or the soundness are
gonna knock you out and the horse

out of the game similar to eventing.

But it, it, it, again, it's
very practical, no-nonsense sort

of basis from which to build.

It's very similar to the background
I grew up with, which was hunting,

eventing, team chasing, point to
pointing where again, the fitness

and the soundness was everything.

You either could or you couldn't do it
depending on how fit or how sound your

horse was, there was no in-between really.

So we were all had stuff about muscle
building, soundness and fitness

drilled into us from quite young.

And it wasn't until I got,
I, I, I jumped a little bit

semi-professionally in America when
I, earlier on when I was there.

And I was shocked at how unfit and
unsound horses were sometimes, for sure

not everywhere, but sometimes, I realize,
oh, I see that that stuff isn't really

taught outside of like the fox hunting
or endurance or eventing worlds where

people know because that's the culture.

And within equine assisted
work, a lot of people are not

coming out of those cultures.

So how would they know?

So the fact that you're coming from
that is very encouraging to me because

again, we are getting, in our field
mostly donated horses and donated horses

often come with injury, old injuries,
their thoroughbreds off the track.

You know, they're gonna
come with ulcers, possibly.

They're going to come with bone stuff,
they're gonna come with tendon stuff.

And if they're sport horses, they're gonna
come with back stuff, or western horses,

they're gonna come with back stuff.

Among the other things
that they could have.

So I, I like the fact that you're
starting from that basis of what's

going on with your spine, what's
going on in your stomach and your gut.

Let's look at this first, because
this is the part of the body which

is most in contact with the human.

In fact, apart from the
head and the, and the nose.

It's where you sit.

It's what carries you.

It's where your legs
are wrapped and so on.

So even before we think
about the legs and the brain.

And of course it's affecting the brain.

So, okay, so you, you
come in through endurance.

You, you, you encounter Linda TTouch,
you encounter Carrie you begin to learn

the acupressure, the acupuncture but
you're still running a regular practice.

What happens next?

What, how do you take this?

These which at the time
are seen as very woowoo.

Now they're more mainstream, but at the
time, back in the eighties, we know that

people would absolutely roll their eyes
and poo poo at the word Accu acupuncture.

They were not acupuncture schools, you
know, in every city like there are now.

Insurance was not covering
acupuncture like it does now.

You know?

You are right there at the pioneer,
and as you say, you're a petite woman

running a practice in the mountain west
with a lot of people who are going to

be looking at that, the skepticism.

Talk to us about those years and
how you built your practice and,

and where it went from there.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I think the thing that, in hindsight
I realized a couple things was that

one, I, I started my own practice
fairly early out, so I thought if I

didn't know how to treat something,
it was because I just didn't know.

So I needed to find out.

So I would, you know, we didn't
have internet, but I would call.

Colleagues, I would, you know, read books.

I would find ways to figure it out.

And, and, and most of my career I
practiced solo, which I realized in

talking to Mark Rashid, he made a comment
about he grew up working with horses

without a lot of outside influence.

Mm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I, it dawned on me, I grew up
as a veterinarian without a lot of

outside influence, so I could bring
to the table whatever I wanted to.

And so I was kind of, you
know, I grew up with the Dr.

Doolittle books.

I wanted to talk to the animals.

I wanted to, you know, be
able to see what they needed.

And one time when I was
working with Linda, she said,

you are not like normal vets.

I had no yardstick to measure that by.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I didn't know what
she was talking about.

And it wasn't until my practice
here grew and I hired other

veterinarians that I started
understanding that I was different.

And I saw things different.

And I rely a lot on clinical experience
and a lot less on evidence-based medicine.

And and so that's kind of what led me down
that track and, at one point I got really

ill, and acupuncture had always fascinated
me from the time I was in vet school and

it was just coming to the United States.

And so acupuncture
basically saved my life.

And then I needed to know why it worked,
'cause of the way my brain works and

be able to offer it to my patients to,

to not give them the
drugs I wouldn't take.

And, and I've been fortunate
to have a strong intuition.

I used to call it the God who looks after
stupid veterinarians, but an inner voice

that would kind of often wake me up in
the middle of the night and tell me, oh,

that cat has the plague, or whatever.

So that I, I had a very strong
intuitive hit that if I did

Western medicine, I would die.

It wasn't a fear, it was a knowing.

So I, of course, I went to acupuncture
and within one treatment I wasn't

well, but I was significantly improved.

And so that really took me to acupuncture.

And everything has just one
thing has led to another.

To most recently the posture rehab,
which is a lot what Te Touch does,

what does the acupuncture does?

It's kind of bringing it all together.

You

Rupert Isaacson: said you wanted to, you
needed to find out why acupuncture works.

Why does acupuncture work?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And then there again,
it's through the fascia.

There are meridians, energetic meridians,
and they've been proven throughout the

body and the Chinese, just iit, I don't
know how they came up with it, but it's

a technique that's over 2000 years old.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And and by putting a needle into those
meridians at certain points, and they've

dissected those, and that's where
their nerve bundles, there are a lot

of things that cross at those points.

They, they have an anatomical
significance and so that can affect

the whole meridian and Reba, the body
has a unique ability to live on this

planet, and so that helps rebalance
the body in its own innate wisdom.

Rupert Isaacson: When you are presented
with horses that are that have

stories behind them, have a past, do you
have a kind of a, because in our field

that's mostly what we're dealing with.

Do you have a kind of a 1, 2, 3 that
you, you more or less always start with

you, you kind of go in there going,
I'm probably gonna first start here

and then I'm gonna first start there.

Or maybe there's like patterns
of horses that you've come to

recognize over the years that, you
know, it could be this type, oh,

this is a pattern one type horse.

I'll start like this, this
is a pattern two type horse.

I'll start like this.

And you can sort of see that
simply by a quick glance and you

kind of know, okay, I'm probably
gonna start with this approach.

I'll revise that approach.

If, you know, that doesn't tend to
be turn out to be the case, but let

me start here through, from your
experience, you walk into the, you,

you, you walk into a barn, you look
around you, what do you see normally?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

When I go in with a new horse,
I usually stop and I observe

what's, where's the head at?

What's the posture?

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Are they comfortable?

Not, and I will connect you know, and
I sometimes I even say, I see you.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I, I think it's important
that they know who I am.

As important as I see who they are.

Mm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And, and I, you know, where did you,

Rupert Isaacson: did you, did
you come up with that yourself?

I see you?

Or did someone teach you that?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I think just through the training.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

You

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

know, working with the different people
like Linda, you, I've picked that up.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But I, you know, I have horses
of my own and definitely they

have been my hardest teachers.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And, and so I've learned to slow
down the one mayor I have, I, I

can't say I liked her very much,
and we didn't get along because she

came when I was running a three vet
practice and was highly stressed.

And she's half Mustang, so she's
like, I don't wanna be with you.

And so I, I practiced loving
her in my meditations.

And I started noticing when I
would go out to the corral that

she met me in a different way.

And I think that's probably the biggest
influence was I mean, I used to have

to meditate for an hour to be able
to go out into the corral to Wow.

Groom her.

I mean, I

Rupert Isaacson: that bad.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And and so, yeah, and, and it was
very fun the last time I had her at

one of mark's in Chrissy's clinics.

Was Mark repeatedly saying all through
the 10 day, that horse really likes you.

That horse wants to be with you.

She feels safe with you.

And he didn't know all that with her.

But

Rupert Isaacson: up until that point,
you, you feel that really she'd

just been responding to your stress,
the stress that you were under.

She was a

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

mirror.

Yeah, totally.

And she's a big part of where I'm at now,
but it's been some really hard lessons.

But

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

Just, just back then to you, you
go into a barn, you observe, you

slow down, you observe, but you
look, you, the first thing that

came out of your mouth was posture.

So talk to us about that.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, how they stand or how
they want to stand, tells you a lot

of how they feel is their head up
their feet camped underneath them.

Some people call that goat on a rock.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

They should have at least three
legs straight up and down.

And, and so you, you know, if
you just stop a minute and take

time to just notice, you don't,
you don't make a judgment.

You just say, this is
where they're at today.

And then I you know, I usually start
with the ulcers points and, and work.

I may not do a lot.

I just want them to meet me and to
trust me and see that I'm gonna help.

Rupert Isaacson: What percentage of horses
that you come to do you think have ulcers?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Probably at least half.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And where do you think those
ulcers mostly come from?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Management.

I mean, certainly like I, not to
stereotype, but the off the track

thoroughbreds that have been turned into
hunter jumpers to me are the, the ones

that I get maybe 'cause at the rescue
or, or you know, they get passed down,

they've just not been listened to.

They've not been heard, and no
one has slowed down to take the

time to connect, gain their trust,
and then teach them to move on.

And we have a few of those at the ranch
and it's just, it's wonderful to see

them blossom where they, you know,
when they've slowed down, address the

ulcers, address the body mechanics.

It, it's fun to watch those horses bleed.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you
feel that most of those ulcers

are coming from stress or just
from the wrong foods or both?

Or what's the main It's a combination.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

I think a lot of it's stress just
because our husbandry doesn't

often doesn't meet the horses'.

Native requirements.

And if they have an injury or something
that adds, and then the food you

know, we can go down a whole rabbit
hole of the contaminated food and the

Rupert Isaacson: go down that
rabbit hole a little bit.

Tell us a little bit about con
what you mean by contaminated food.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Well, my biggest, I think the number
one issue is is glycosate in, in grains.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Interesting.

Glycosate Roundup.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Roundup, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Agent Orange.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

So it's sprayed on grains you know,
corn, wheat, soy right before harvest to

desiccate it so they get bigger yields.

Rupert Isaacson: I see.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And that's putting it
right into the food supply.

I mean, this is true for
dogs, cats, people, horses.

Yeah.

Horses are a little better, and I
think I'm lucky in Colorado because

the ranchers up here tend not
to spray things on their fields.

And we're kind of at the top of the world.

Our water runs down and our contaminants
run down to everybody else, but we don't,

Rupert Isaacson: are they not, are the
farmers up there not spraying because

they feel a sense of responsibility for
the people in the water table below them?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I would say it's probably
more not necessary.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Because it's dry.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It's dry.

Okay.

And a lot, you know, some of
the hay fields are are native

okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Grasses.

But then when you go buy your
package, feed your senior, your

not to name names, and I, I go
to the feed store, I read labels.

I mean, when I'm bored and
don't wanna come home and clean

house or something, I will

mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Read dog food labels, horse food labels.

And, you know, I recently had an older
horse with not much teeth, and I was just

mortified at the, on the shelf diets for
horses because it will, it will say, you

know, grain byproducts or it doesn't even
tell you what's in it and not Well that,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

How do you know it's, they're not gonna
say glyphosate probably, are they?

So how do you spell No,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

no.

And, and it's, there's no certification
that says that they're glyco free.

Fake free.

And if it's non GMO, that doesn't
mean anything because they spray

the glycosate before harvest.

It doesn't matter if it's GMO or non GMO.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So how do you know if you're buying,
how can you discern between a glyphosate

food and a non glyphosate food?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

They stay away from grains.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Is you think they all have

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it.

So I, I assume they all have it

Rupert Isaacson: and unless

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it's organic.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Now it's easy to say
stay away from grains.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah, yeah.

No, but

Rupert Isaacson: it's not easy to do.

If you say, okay, well I'd like
to buy organic grains, but they're

significantly more expensive.

What would be plan B?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Humic acid will remove will denature.

Glycosate

Rupert Isaacson: what?

Acid again?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Humic acid.

H-U-M-I-C.

Rupert Isaacson: Humic.

What is humic acid?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I don't, I'm not a chemist.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, okay.

I'm gonna,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it's fascinate that, but it's

Rupert Isaacson: I mean, how do you,
how do you buy it where you, you buy?

So there's a product

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I, you can spray it on fields and it will
denature roundup where it's been sprayed.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So, I think it's relatively
low cost and obtainable.

Rupert Isaacson: How does one obtain it?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You can get ion, which is a
brand that makes that for humans.

You know, I put my dogs on it.

I assume we all have it
unless tested otherwise.

And interesting.

A, b, C plus.

Advanced biological concepts makes a horse
mineral supplement that has that in it.

Rupert Isaacson: So you would
mix a small amount of this with

any grain standard grain feed?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

As a supplement.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm just gonna
read out what AI has given

me because I just Oh, good.

I just typed humic acid into my phone.

It says, humic acid is a naturally
occurring organic substance found

in soil peats, oceans, and fresh
waters derived from the decomposition

of plant and animal matter.

It's a dark brown substance with large
men, large molecular weight, mostly

insoluble in water at high pH values.

Humic acid plays a crucial
role in soil health, nutrient

availability, and plant growth.

How, how is it known that it's,
it neutralizes glyphosate?

I do see here that it says
humic acids can collate, IE

bind to and take outta the body.

Nutrients, especially iron,
making them accessible to plants.

Is it a collating agent or, yeah, I

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

would think so.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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How did you find out about it?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Oh, that, that was another rabbit hole.

Okay.

I do ozone therapy.

Huh

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I mean, I've known about it, but I
went to the Ozone conference and there

was a two hour presentation on Glycosate.

Okay.

And that's where I really became
convinced of the seriousness of it.

And the, and it gave me hope that there
is a way if people will stop using

Roundup to get it out of our soil again.

And, and I think regenerative
farming is doing that.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So interesting.

Would it also be there in alfalfa

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

if they spray it?

But probably not.

Because if they sprayed
Roundup on alfalfa, it would

Rupert Isaacson: kill the alfalfa, not,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it would kill the alfalfa 'cause.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: So if someone's
feeding up alpha pellets, for example.

So I think, I think the hay

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

is cleaner.

Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh.

I

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

did see a study done on dog food
where they measured the amount of

glycosate in it and it ranged from
like 50 parts per million to over 800.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And there again, it was how
much grains were in the food.

Okay.

Kind of told how bad it was.

Rupert Isaacson: And for those
listeners who aren't familiar

with glyphosate and it's not great
thing just type it into Google.

But, bayer, the German pharmaceutical
company who recently, or in the last,

not so recently in the last 10 years,
bought a roundup from, as a product

from, I forget which American company
was staring down the barrel of a

gun with potential, you know, mass
class action lawsuits about people

dying left and right from glyphosate.

Well, buyer are now staring down that
very same barrel and I think have

just had to do a very big settlement.

I think, I think, I think I
might even look it up now.

So don't underestimate glyphosate
and the need to deal with it.

What, so do you think back to horses
with ulcers, do you think the ulcers

are causing the, the, the, the
glyphosates causing the, causing

the ulcers, or is the glyphosate
causing other, other problems too?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I always think it certainly
is causing other problems.

It's hard to think that it's not
affecting the ulcers because it affects

the gut biome and the gut bacteria.

So especially we see a lot
of hind gut ulcers in horses.

So it, it certainly isn't going
to help the situation in Right.

I'm

Rupert Isaacson: just looking
here, by the way buyer, it's a 611

million judgment against Roundup.

Make our buyer.

Upheld by the Missouri Appeals
Court a day one day ago.

And of course what that does is it
opens up the, it opens up the company

to lots and lots of other lawsuits too.

But this has been
brewing for, for decades.

By the way, Bayer also brought us, you
do you know, the other wonderful product?

Bayer brought us in
the early 20th century.

You might know if you, it's just
a, a fun little trivia fact,

right?

Rupert Isaacson: Heroin,
they invented heroin.

Oh.

Rupert Isaacson: And they, I didn't
know heroine as opposed to held in,

which is Yeah, it's German company
held in, would be a heroine as we

think of a female hero, you know, in
German they call it heroine because

it was supposed to be a non-addictive
form of laden, you know, opiate.

So it's basically the fentanyl of its day.

And well, the rest is history, isn't it?

So well done.

Bio.

So yeah, we are not on team glyphosate.

Yeah.

But it's good that you draw our
attention to this because I think

you know, we don't wanna shame people
from running bonds on a budget.

And what one has to do is give people,
you know, a more accessible roadmap to

how to find the better products, you know,
so, or mitigate the less good products.

So the fact, for example, that
you talked about the humic acid.

Supplement if someone has,
is buying cheaper grains.

This is really useful for people, I think.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

And I think the hay pellets are kind of
a great thing that have come out because

a lot of horses don't need the grains.

You can feed the hay pellets.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

They're gonna be a lot lower
in glycosate and the horse.

It's more natural to what
the horse has evolved to eat.

So I, I think the grain products
have been way over pushed.

That most horses really don't need that.

Right.

Maybe the

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

higher performance.

I get that.

But I think they're, I think
there's just better ways Mm.

To help them.

And if you maintain their weight,

Rupert Isaacson: it's alfalfa, pate's
better choice than most grains.

If only for the fact that they're
not gonna have the glyphosate contact

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

that and they're gonna be produced
less a higher pH in the gut where it

needs to be, you know, balancing that
because the grains, you know, affect

the gut biome as well and causing acid.

'cause they're acid type effect.

Huh?

Rupert Isaacson: Because
they're more acidic.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

The way they, they encourage different
bacteria in the, in the hind gut.

There's not supposed to
be grains in the hind gut.

And so it, you know, it's just the way
horses have evolved was not to eat grains.

And so we do, because we ask a
lot performance wise, but a lot of

horses are not being asked to perform
hard, but yet are fed those brains.

Right.

So it's kind of, being more aware
of, of what they really need.

And

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I think
I'm gonna go, go, go to what Do

horses really, really need it?

I'm actually gonna ask you
that question in a minute.

But talk to us a little
bit about the hind gut.

What is the hind gut
and why do we need, so

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

the hind gut is the horses have a
very large, large intestine where it

ferments food like a cow has a rumen.

So it's the large intestine in the cecum.

Okay.

So it's part

Rupert Isaacson: of the large intestine.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes.

It's, it, the cecum is in there.

So it's all the large in, what's the seum,

Rupert Isaacson: tell us about the seum.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

The cecum is kind of a dead end pouch.

It's quite large.

It would be this equivalent
of our app appendix.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Only it's huge in a horse.

And that's where the grasses
and stuff get fermented.

Okay.

And that's what its intent is.

Okay.

So if you feed a high grain diet.

Okay.

Then it gets there in the hind gut
and that tends to change the pH.

It's, it was not intended
to ferment grains.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And does that then cause inflammation?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes, for sure.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And then, you know, that
causes a cascade of mm-hmm.

Of things.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Very interesting.

These are really nice,
clear answers for people.

And also I, you know, I love the
fact that you're giving alternatives

and alternatives that are easy to
find, not obscure supplements that,

you know, might cost a million bucks
and you can't get at a feed store.

Okay.

So we want to look after
the horse's hind gut.

We don't wanna ferment grains in
there, if possible, because we don't

want to affect the pH balance there.

And we don't wanna cause inflammation,
which as you say, can lead to what

we know inflammation can lead to.

Where you talked about the horse's basic
requirements, the horse's basic needs.

What are a horse's basic requirements?

We might think it's patently
obvious, but even if it is patently

obvious, tell us what they are.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Well, they're, they're herbivores,
so they eat grasses alfalfa.

They can have it's higher protein.

If they need that they need salt and it's
better to have, you know, natural salt

than that white iodine, salt, and minerals
free, free choice is the ideal world.

But that's not always
easy to do in management.

But they don't require a whole lot
more in the wild, the herbivores.

They would eat the herbs that they need.

And I find that fun in treating horses.

Because of my Chinese medicine
background, I use a lot of herbs

and that's getting more popular.

But I used, I love to watch them graze

and

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

see what plants they eat today

mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And what plants they eat
two weeks from today.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It, it, it, it just fascinates
me because they have that

ability to know what they need.

Rupert Isaacson: It's we're doing
this podcast in early June of 2025.

So you're up there in
the mountain pastures.

What, what are the herbs that
they're currently eating?

What were they eating two weeks
ago and what are they eating now?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I haven't done this for a while, but
I I, I find dandelion is one of 'em

that they will eat and this is liver.

We're just coming out
of liver time of year.

Hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So, you know, if you go the
circadian calendar you know,

you could pick herbs from that.

I don't always know what
plants they're eating.

I just noticed that,

Rupert Isaacson: but tell
us what you've noticed.

Yeah,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

so I would, I walk my gilding 'cause
we don't have a lot of pastures.

So I'd walk in down the borough ditches
and he would eat all the alfalfa plants

'cause we don't have that on our property.

And then a couple weeks later,
he was kind of looking like maybe

he would colic or he was off.

Mm-hmm.

So I thought, well, something
green would be good for his gut.

So I took him walking.

He would not touch the alfalfa plants.

He was going for the grasses.

He would only eat
dandelions some of the time.

Not, not every, all the time.

Sometimes he would leave them.

I've, I've watched him in the mountains
eat things that I don't think are edible.

Okay.

And, and they're fat on them.

You know, so it's, I I wish I was
a better botanist that I could to

pick out those different plants.

Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.

My we had a superb vet growing
up in Leicestershire, which

is similar to Virginia.

In the USA, it's fox hunting, jumping.

Sporty horsey area, but for, you know, the
last three, 400 years or more and large

animal agriculture area, you know, beef,
cattle, that sort of thing, and sheep.

And so we, a lot of the vets in the
old days, there were horsemen and

our vet always used to say, yeah,
you always want to call in Dr.

Green.

Don't call me, call Dr.

Green.

And what he meant was, turn your
horses out on the most natural pastures

that you can, pastures that have
not been treated pastures that have

not been fertilized pastures, that
have not been planted with ryegrass.

And a lot of the stuff, which,
particularly at the end of the

winter when they need their
immune systems built up again.

And he says, Dr.

Green will take care of most of the stuff.

If Dr.

Green doesn't cure it, then call me.

And he was so right.

The, but not everyone has
access to that kind of pasture.

Not every horse, of course, thrives
on the type of rich limestone

pastures that, you know, are
thoroughbreds and hunters thrived on.

That can be too much for some horses.

And as you know, a lot of pasture
is non-native planted monoculture.

So knowing that.

What are the herbs?

If, if your pasture isn't herb
herbaceous and the horses can't

just go find what they need what do,

if you were going to suggest to someone
who is running a barn particularly with

senior horses that you know, as a lot
of therapy bonds are, that need a bit

more support, what would be the sort
of go-to hubs that you must, you might

say, Hey look, just be aware that you
might wanna have these, these, these,

these and these kind of in your armory
that you might go and buy in your

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

bulk.

I, I saw something recently that I
thought was very clever, was a raised bed

where they raised, they grew some herbs.

Mm-hmm.

And they had a, a wire over it and the
horses had limited access to it every day.

But they could pick
which ones they wanted.

And, and that to me, I think I've

Rupert Isaacson: seen this.

Yeah, it's clever.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Is, is a short a short version.

I use a lot of slippery elm or
marshmallow root licorice for ulcers.

They heal mucus membranes.

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

So,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

the, you know, going back to the
ulcers, a lot of, there's a lot of

ulcer guard and I, I don't remember
all the names, but the drugs don't.

They stop stomach acid, but
horses produce acid all the time.

Unlike people because they're grazers,
they their stomach just so if you,

Rupert Isaacson: so they need it.

Stop the acid production.

Right.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You get, you get a rebound effect.

So you get more acid production.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So the, the, it's great if you have
a horse that's colicking due to

ulcers, but you need to do something
to heal the mucus membranes.

And so those are the
some common herbs I use.

You know, there's dandelion milk thistle
to kind of help the liver because it's

stressed getting all those grains.

Rupert Isaacson: And are you
buying those as dried herbs that

you're just putting a pinch?

You can, there's,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

there's some really good herbal companies
that have come out in, at least I've been,

become aware of in the last few years.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

That, you know, you don't
have to be an herbalist.

You can there's, there's just some good
companies making those and you really need

to tailor it to what your horse needs.

Mm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, I can't give a blanket
statement because they all come

from different constitutions.

Different,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, sure.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Even if they're in the same barn,
they just are not, but being aware of

Rupert Isaacson: herbs and herbal
supplements is a good place to start.

We can agree with that.

Yeah.

I membrane.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

And, and you know, balancing
the, the gut biome, the, with

probiotics if they need it.

Be aware if you put 'em on
antibiotics, you're gonna mess that up.

So what are you gonna do to fix it?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, or, or things that we
need to start being more aware of.

I, I find I don't use many
drugs anymore in my practice.

Rupert Isaacson: What, so you're,
you're using a combination

of things like acupuncture,
acupressure, the use of the herbs.

Is there anything else that we
haven't covered that is a, a bit of a

go-to that you use in your practice?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah, my, my number one
go-to is a low level laser.

And it's what?

Laser?

A low level laser.

Rupert Isaacson: A low level laser.

Now tell us what that is.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So there's kind of, lasers is a big term
that incorporates LEDs and true lasers.

And then there's cold lasers, which
don't heat like a surgical laser.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But those of us with this type call it low
level because it does not heat the tissue.

It works at wavelengths of
light that cells function at.

And and then I can, it's, the one I
have is made by UIA and it's a class two

Rupert Isaacson: by who.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Aia, E-R-C-H-O-N-I-A,

Rupert Isaacson: aia.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I think Christy calls
'em my magic wands, but they,

Rupert Isaacson: that's Chrissy
McDonald listeners who you that we

have a great po couple of podcasts
with her and Mark Rashid, who you

need to know about their work as well.

Okay.

Just that an aside for sure.

Okay, so tell us again, low
level lasers made by ocon.

They're your magic wands.

Why?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So they're, they're class two, which means
class tubes, the classification of lasers.

Class fives are surgical lasers.

Okay.

A

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

lot of veterinarians have class fours,
which are FDA clearance by the same

way under the co cover of a heat lamp.

Okay.

That

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

they heat the tissue, so they help
with pain in inflammation with

the class twos, the light, you
can program different frequencies.

So different frequencies can resonate
with different kinds of cells.

Like a tuning fork would
resonate with notes.

Right.

And so I use combination
of frequencies and

Rupert Isaacson: how do you know
which frequencies to, to use?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

A lot of them are based
on rife frequencies.

Rupert Isaacson: On what?

Frequency?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So everything.

Huh?

Rupert Isaacson: On what frequencies?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Rife.

RIF.

Rupert Isaacson: What's a ri?

What's a rife frequency?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So there was a.

Rife machine that years ago Dr.

Rife started and he, he accumulated
frequencies that of different things

like a nerve cell homeopathics
everything vibrates at a frequency.

Mm-hmm.

And so those are just known frequencies
for, you know, bacteria, whatever.

And do

Rupert Isaacson: you know what
off the top of your head, what

some of those frequencies are?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Nine is nerves.

Rupert Isaacson: One more time.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Nine

Rupert Isaacson: is nerves.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

I think

42 is inflamma is swelling.

Edema.

I used to know 'em, but the
newer mega have a memory.

These

Rupert Isaacson: mega, when
you say nine, what are these?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Number nine,

Rupert Isaacson: but nine.

So the light

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

blinks at nine.

Nine milli.

Nine hertz.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So these are very, very
slow vibrations, sort of.

They can

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

be, or, or the sympathetic
for people is 213.

So with this laser I do they al

Rupert Isaacson: always
add up to 3, 6 0 9?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

No, no.

I just, my memory does.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Only because, are you familiar with
something called the Sulf Scale?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes,

Rupert Isaacson: a little bit.

For those listeners who are not it
was banned or parts of it were banned

by the Catholic Church in the 16th
century, but a lot of Gregorian Plain

song, a lot of early Christian music
is actually in the Sulf Regi scale.

And there are certain frequencies
that, that, that it's a scale of

notes that they're usually at higher
frequencies of, and they almost

always add up to three, six, or nine.

In fact, I think they, they do, if they're
on the Sulf Regi scale and different ones

seem to affect us emotionally in these
different ways, and that, so much so that

the Catholic church got annoyed and said,
these are connecting people with God.

We can't have that, so we're
gonna ban some of this.

So

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

yeah, I do use those in my laser as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So the interesting, and, and as you

Rupert Isaacson: know, Nicola Tesla,
by the way, was also the one who

famously said, if you want to know
how the universe works, think in terms

of, you know, frequency and vibration,
energy, frequency and vibration.

So, but I, I'm just interested
that, that's why I asked if

you knew what some of them are.

And it, it does seem in fact that, yeah.

Okay, so, so.

I'm trying to marshal my
scattered thoughts here.

A conia is, is the product line.

Who turned you on to those?

Why?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So this was part of the rabbit hole.

So I learned veterinary,
veterinary, orthopedic manipulation.

And he mentioned in, in one of the
classes, this laser, which I had used

back in 82, 83, we had lasered horses.

We were doing racetrack work and horses.

That boat attendant, if we lasered
them, they could race the same season.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And so I, that's impressive.

And you know, I moved on and busyness
of life, I forgot about lasers and

tell my own horse, this is where
our hardest lessons come from.

He was injured.

It wasn't a bad injury,
but it would not heal.

And I took him to the university
and mostly 'cause there comes a

point where you need, you need
somebody else to be your vet.

So I took him there and they could find,
you know, everything else checked out.

So I asked him to lay him down and
debride his leg to clean it up for me

because he was, he came to me traumatized.

We hadn't really got through
things when he had this injury.

So I wanted it done by somebody else.

And four days later, it was
worse than when I took him.

So I brought him, he was home.

I doctored him myself
and then it went south.

He was boarded and it, they called
me and he was now three-legged.

He had this huge open wound on his
right o blow and over his hawk.

And and so I took him to my
clinic then and put him in a

stall and he was losing weight.

He was three-legged, not weightbearing.

So I took him to what I consider
the best private clinic in Colorado.

They laid him down again, debrided it,
put him in a cast to a stifle for a month.

I left him there because I live over two
mountain passes and it was January and

when they took it off, they graciously
offered skin grafts 'cause that's how

much it wasn't healed, which we did.

'Cause at this point it was, you
know, just what's more money.

And a long story short, I did everything
the best vets in the state could do for

seven months and could not heal his leg.

And I had a three to four inch diameter
chronic wound, lots of scar tissue.

When I finally listened to my
gut, which kept telling me that

a laser would help him, and took.

Took the first class with her coia on
the laser for animals and bought it.

And I kid you not in two weeks
his leg was healed and normal.

I mean, there was insignificant scab.

The scar tissue went away.

He was sound.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you recommend that
barn owners should buy some stuff from the

ACON range and have it just in their barn?

I, I, I,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

they have to, I mean,

I use mine for all my animals and
the, you know, the price tag is a

little steep, but so is healthcare
and so is veterinary care, no

Rupert Isaacson: doubt.

Is there a model that you recommend?

Is this like the sort of standard that
everyone should kind of probably have?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah, they're their introductory level.

It, the, the least expensive.

It's about 10 grand.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just the red, and
that's what I had to begin with.

That's what healed my horse.

It, it's a, it's a,
it's a very good laser.

They then have one that is
red and violet and the violet

is antibacterial, antifungal.

The red is somewhat so,
but the violet a lot more.

And it can do other things
with the nerves and.

You can use it as a preventative,
like shine it in your

sinuses and throat and stuff.

Thymus to try not to catch the
leading virus that's going around.

Then they came out recently
with a violet and green.

So you get the antibacterial, the
green is, seems to work better

with nerves and chronic pain.

So when I do it, I, I use them in
combination so I can stimulate the

brainstem, the spinal cord, and the
area of interest and your vision.

So I've kind of evolved
these things at those

Rupert Isaacson: areas.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah, they're, yeah, it's,
and it's, it's lines of light.

Mm-hmm.

Which

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

my horse had explained to one of
the many therapists I incorporated

to help find out how to heal him.

And and that's unique and patented with
zirconia so I don't have to be right

on the horse because it is a true laser
and I can cover a pretty big area.

When I first got it and when I had
my clinic, kind of, my, I hate to say

it, my bread and butter was paralyzed
dogs and between the acupuncture and

the laser and sometimes the dog would
be so painful, all I could do is

laser him 'cause I couldn't touch him.

And they would walk
within two or three days.

So it's okay.

It's really good for
nerve problems I've found.

But I think that being able to
reconnect the brain to the rest of the

body helps the body integrate that.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you recommend just
lasering your horses on a week to week

basis, just to kind of as a, as you say,
as a preventative, or do you do it in the,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

in the human world, they're using
it for performance enhancement,

so definitely, and I'm, I'm hope
to get a study going soon using it

for metabolic disease in horses.

Okay.

So

Rupert Isaacson: as a horse owner
yourself, how often do you, you

know, with no crisis going on,
how often do you lazy your horses?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I try to do body work on them if
I haven't, if I'm gonna go ride.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I don't ride as often as I should,
but you know, in my ideal world,

I would do it at least every week.

And I have this How long
would you do it for?

What's that?

Rupert Isaacson: How
long would you do it for?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It takes about 10, 15 minutes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

Not so, it's

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

not, it's not a big thing,
but like, certainly.

As I was telling somebody the
other day, when you have an injury,

you need the laser and you know,
need to know how to use it now.

Okay.

So, so

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it's not something you're gonna
buy unless you're like me and

you struggle for seven months.

Right.

When

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I could have paid for the laser upfront
with not having that, all those vet bill.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

Okay, so tell me, and I, I've done

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

in course, in course of uveitis

mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

The laser's safe enough
to do eye problems.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Okay.

Wound management, you know, tendons back.

I What about, about skin

Rupert Isaacson: stuff, skin
problems, what is the itch?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

And the violet is really good for that.

Rupert Isaacson: Just writing that down.

I've got a couple of horses that itch.

Yeah.

And you would do that just
all over the epidermis area?

You just like, or you just go to
the areas that they tend to itch.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So some of the studies show that in the
blood are free floating mitochondria.

Mm-hmm.

And

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

the,

the lights, the three different
colors stimulate the cytochrome

oxidase steps in the mitochondria
to produce a TP or energy.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And they, they affect different steps.

And by doing that then they.

The mitochondria can do, provide the cell
with more energy to do whatever the cell

needs to do, heal, function, whatever.

So there are free floating
mitochondria in the blood.

So if you laser the blood, the cells will
pick up those mitochondria that need them.

And so you can laser the right
hind leg for an injury on the

left front and make a difference.

Say, granted, you're gonna
have a better, I wanna say

Rupert Isaacson: itching its tail or
itching its main or itching its face.

Are you, are you zapping that, that
area or are you zapping any area for

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

that reason?

Well, I'll, I'll zap the
most important areas.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Realizing I'm gonna help the minor
areas as well, but I don't have to feel

like I have to laser the entire horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

That's also, I think

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

that it works by, the frequencies
are like a light vibration.

Mm-hmm.

And that gets into the water
or the horse's 80% water.

Mm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And it's transmitted like a sonar
in a submarine in the ocean.

Okay.

And so there's, there's different
ways that it can affect the cells

and do that kind of healing.

You can also also use laser, do lasers on

yourself.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes.

And I do, there's one technique
you know, lasering your brain.

I've had five traumatic brain injuries.

I've invested a lot of
money into my brain.

So I, two or three days a
week I try to do every day.

But that doesn't happen.

I laser my brain.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And whatever things might have other
things that need to go with it.

You can laser thyroid,
you can laser heart.

Rupert Isaacson: So you use
the same devices on yourself

that you use on the horse.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I do.

And in two years everyone in my
family had an orthopedic surgery

and it got used on everybody.

My leg.

I fractured my tibia and I
lasered a week before surgery.

And the surgeon went,
the surgery went so well.

Instead of being in a cast, I could be
in a boot and start using it right away.

And I kept lasering.

And laser can cut healing time in half.

So using the Linda Tillington Jones
principle, I told myself every time

they told me six to eight weeks,
I went, oh, you mean three weeks?

And at three weeks I got them
to X-ray and they could not see

where I'd ever broke my leg.

Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And so, you know, in a dog or a horse,
if you can cut their healing time in half

mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Before they can do more damage
by being locked up or mm-hmm.

You can get 'em back into work sooner.

They haven't lost so much.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

There's

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

just so many other things with that.

And I, I've even, you know, used
it for cellular memory of trauma.

I've been able to help horses that
have trauma release that, and,

and I've had the misfortune of trying
it out on myself for that when I had

one of my dogs killed by a horse and
being the vet, I was the one trying

to save his life as I was freaking
out that I couldn't save his life.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And and I was having a tough time
there again in the dojo with Mark

and Chrissy Rashed, and something
triggered me and I left, and Chrissy

said, have you done that on yourself?

And I, you know, had never thought of it.

And I did.

And it was so interesting that what I was
experienced was trauma, not just grief.

And by taking out the trauma,
then I could handle the grief.

Hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It was, it, it just, I, I never equated
those as two different things, but,

so, you know, working in a rescue, I
almost always start there with a horse

because I don't have to know what trauma
they had to help them get rid of it.

And it's, yeah, it's, I, I can't really
explain the mechanics or the science base.

Mm-hmm.

I'm just not.

Rupert Isaacson: But you're still working
with the laser horse at this point,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

huh?

Rupert Isaacson: You're still
working with the laser at this point?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I, I use it, yeah.

Yeah.

And

Rupert Isaacson: can I ask you
about another device you know the

Beemer blankets, B-E-M-E-R Uhhuh

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: By the Swiss company.

What's your take on those?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I, I really, I have it.

Linda introduced me to that.

I, I really like it personally for, I
use it for my horses because mm-hmm.

The two times when I wouldn't
be without it is colic.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I've, I've seen it.

I've even seen my horse like grab for it
off the fence when she was colicking and

then while she had the Beamer on, I did T
touch and within 10 minutes she was fine.

Okay.

I also found that when I sedate
a horse, if I beamer them, they

go deeper and I need less drugs.

And at which, you know, because
it opens up the microcirculation.

The drug gets where it
needs to be faster mm-hmm.

And more effectively.

And it puts 'em in a sympathetic
state, which adrenaline is

like an antidote for drugs.

Yeah.

So I don't have to keep giving
more and the, it's worth it.

But in my world, that's a,
that's a homework issue.

I don't have, I often don't
beamer the horses I'm working

on because I don't have the time

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

To do it.

And I don't need to do it.

The ranch where I work,
they have two beamers.

If I'm running late, they'll throw
a beamer on the, on my patient,

or if there's volunteers around,
they'll throw one on after I'm done.

But

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I'm, I have a couple and I'm a,
I'm a great believer and Jet Linda

Pennington Jones turned me onto them.

And she said, Rupert, this
will take away your jet lag.

See?

Know I'm often on planes and Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And it sort of did and I was like, oh.

And then we noticed the
effect on our horses.

When you are back to what you said
you, when you're riding, you will

laser your horse before or after?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Usually I do before.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

So I'm also thinking about therapy
programs where the horses are

serving client after client.

You know, we have some centers
that do what we do in Ireland

particularly, that have really
heavy client loads that are funded.

Now at a state level or at
least by charities that are

receiving state funding.

So they have to meet certain quotas.

And so we're always looking for ways to
make it better and easier for the horses.

We do tons of lunging, we do tons
of long reigning, we do tons of

in hand work for brain and body.

Yes.

But your thing about the laser is
interesting to me because I could see

that being really useful if a horse is
going to do several sessions in a day.

And when they have having the downtime
in between luckily they all get

completely turned out on pasture at
night no matter what the time of year.

So they're not confined to stall.

They, they go into stores in the day
simply because you can't always go

to the field, catch a horse and clean
it in the rain and the mud, you know?

But they're getting outta
those stores all the time.

So they're really just in there to
chill in between, eat hay and them,

boom, they're out in herd otherwise.

But I like the idea that you
said of lasering them beforehand.

We would also want to beamer them, but
as you say, the beaming sometimes takes

a bit of time, and in the course of a
busy day, it's easy for that to get lost.

And we have to give.

The professionals tools they can
actually use that aren't gonna just

stress them more because they haven't
got time to use them, and now they feel

guilty because, you know what I mean?

It's, it's, that's, that's
not, that's not helpful.

So I'm gonna turn them onto the aia range.

I'm really grateful that you've
and I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna

give it a try with my horses too.

Horses.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Sure.

I can give you the contact.

Rupert Isaacson: That would be great.

That would be really great.

And maybe we'll share
that with listeners too.

Okay.

Now you talked earlier about the basic
requirements of a horse and you brought

it down to grass of salt minerals,
but we know it's more than that too.

We know it's how they live.

If you had your perfect world,

how would every horse live?

And given that not everyone has the state
of Montana or Colorado as their backyard,

right.

Rupert Isaacson: And then it would be
quite useful to look at, okay, well if you

haven't got that, what are the strategies
that we can do that would approximate

towards that in less ideal situations?

So what's the, what's the, the ideal?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

One thing I, I see a lot of is, I
think horses, they're herd animals.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

That it's important if they
can have contact and be with

another, and that, you know, gets.

Safety, the more expensive
they are, can they be there?

But you know, I think for
their wellbeing, yeah.

Probably one of the primary things
is to be, have companionship

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Where they can actually physically touch.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yes, yes.

That's, now this can

Rupert Isaacson: be tricky
if you've got stallions.

Obviously

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

some people have worked that
out even with stallions.

Yeah.

I mean, so, it's changing
the paradigm from early on.

I think it's, it's possible.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, and I think,

Rupert Isaacson: but, but most
people do not have stallions, so.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And we can't, we don't
live in a perfect world.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But you can, you know,
exercise is really important.

Hmm.

That they get the miles
one way or the other.

And like you said, I, I worked on a
racetrack for a while and was just amazed

at how little exercise those horses got

Hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Compared to me as a youngster
riding eight or nine hours a day.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Growing up hunting, I
mean, a hunting day was

we back in those days, this is the
eighties, early eighties, you'd

ride to the meet if it was within
an hour of your, of where you lived.

if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

So you've got that, and you'd
ride at a steady walk or trot.

You arrive at the meet.

Stand around for 20 minutes, and
then you're hunting for six hours,

which is not all hard action.

You know, there's stand roundy
bits as well, but you're basically

on the move fast or slow.

And then you would ride home and sometimes
the hunt would end like two or three hours

from home and we'd ride home, you know?

And even in the dark along the roads,
because back then in the roads in England,

people kind of expected to meet livestock.

You couldn't do it anymore, you
know, that you just get killed.

But back then it was, there were less
cars and the rural traffic, you know,

was more horse friendly even at night.

And so you'd put all that together, I
mean, at night, meaning it also gets

dark at like four o'clock in December,
you know, so it's not exactly late.

And you've got like an eight
hour day of movement, just

movement, movement, movement.

Not all hard demanding
movement, but just movement.

And of course also exploration
and being in a herd with all their

friends, you know, because hunting
is usually done with group and so on.

So whatever you think about whether
one should go fox hunting or not.

And I actually don't live hunt anymore
and go out with the bloodhounds, which

we hunt actually one of our friends.

But we still have a lot of fun doing it.

You know, I've, I've never encountered
such happy horses as horses that

regularly go hunting because they.

They, a lot of their needs are met
just through the course of that

provided that fit, you know, and well,
but as you say, that's just not how

most horses are moved these days.

And a lot of my clients, I have a,
you know, another hat that I wear

as a dressage teacher and, you know,
the vast majority of my clients, they

have a job, you know, so the horse is
boarded and they get to that horse if

they're lucky, you know, an hour a day.

They might have other people that
share that horse or sublease that

horse and can move it more in the day.

But basically that horse is
standing around most of the time.

And a lot of the issues that I
see in people as well as horses, I

think come down to chronic boredom.

And it's almost like we've become so
inured to boredom and sedentary lives,

and now we lead sedentary lives.

So we go out to our horse
as a sedentary person.

We now can't necessarily accept a whole
big bunch of energy, like a big puppy

jumping up and down that's pleased to see
us, but yet that horse has been standing

there, and now we are suddenly the
party, you know, and the chance to move.

We, that's what we represent.

And then boom, that doesn't go so well
because the monkey's not ready for it.

And the monkey's also too sedentary
and perhaps not fit enough,

and it's a downward spiral.

So I like that you brought up movement.

What are some strategies that
people could look at to make sure

their horses get enough movement?

For their bodies and for their brains.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Well, yeah.

You said brains.

So brains use a lot of glucose so you
can get exhausted by using your brain.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And so, you know, adding enrichment,
I really like the surefoot pads

because they, what are those?

Our novel Wendy Murdoch came
up with the Surefoot pads.

They affect the proprioception.

They just work on so many levels, and I
often use them before treatment, but I

will also know that I need to work with
my horse, but I don't have the energy.

So I'll go out with the surefoot pads
and I always see it as a game that

the horse gets to make the rules.

So I don't go there with a structure.

And

Rupert Isaacson: the horse
stands on them, right?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

They stand on 'em.

And you can, that's not a

Rupert Isaacson: lot of movement, right?

I mean that's, or they, they do
a lot of movement concentrating,

so that's using up energy,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

but they're using their
fine motor muscles.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

So they're

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

can, they can get sore if you
let 'em stay on 'em too long.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And so it's, it's,

Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking them up here.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It's fine motor movement.

It, it, it's proprioception.

You can mix, you can stack 'em,
you can put 'em on different legs.

You can do one leg at a time.

And you just walk 'em between times.

They get, if they wanna step off, if you
let 'em step off and go for a walk, okay.

And then you do it or you can do
you know, t touch the labyrinth or

mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, ground walking, all
those things enhance riding.

And gives the horse a novel, a new way of

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Being so Right and

Rupert Isaacson: novel, novel
movement, as we know, promotes a

protein in the brain for listeners.

Yeah.

BDNF and, and derive neurotrophic
factor, which is neuroplasticity.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So you can, you know, you can set
up those things to work with your

horse to keep 'em engaged and, and
help 'em focus, which will bring down

that energy that they don't always
have to just expend as a blast of,

Rupert Isaacson: but sometimes
horses do need a blast.

I mean, they're like kids.

They do.

They do.

And

Rupert Isaacson: this is one of my issues
with the way things have gone in the last

10 years, particularly in certain aspects
of the equine assisted world where there's

a real emphasis on everything being
quiet down, regulated, and not fireworks.

But I do know horses and I
know that they like fireworks.

I turned my, you know, horses out
this morning 'cause they live in an

open area, but after I fed them in the
morning, I let turn them out to pasture.

They're not installed, but they're
open area with free hay and all that,

but they still want to go to pasture.

And when they go to pass, they play and
they're quite explosive in their play.

Just like kids.

And one of the strategies we came
up with when we, for a while had to

board horses here in Germany, but
they weren't getting out that much.

We were like, oh shit,
what are we gonna do?

'cause they, these guys need a lot.

We came up with the idea of crazy time.

And it was something we did with kids
anyway, always in the work that we do,

not with horses, that before we work,
say with autistic children or kids

with a DD or whatever, we are never
gonna say, concentrate on this thing.

You know, when the kid just
walks, it's like, no, come on.

That's not what a kid wants to do.

They, they, they wanna play.

They wanna see the all the play equipment.

They wanna go nuts for a bit or
not, or just engage with it in

the way that they wanna engage.

But there's always a certain population
that want to go nuts with it.

And then when they've done that
for a while, the endorphins

kick in and they're like, then
they're like, okay, I'm available.

You know, what should we do?

And I'm always astonished that this is
not how people approach horses, you know?

That if the horse wants to buck and
play and ride, like, no, no, calm down.

Calm down.

Like.

Why, if that's not, if the, if
where the horse is at, well, we

know why, because it causes us fear.

We obviously don't wanna get bucked off.

We don't wanna get hurt.

So what we did was, for us and
for our clients, there was a big

indoor arena because it's Germany.

So we said, okay, that's what we've got.

And it's also icy outside and it's dark,
so let's use that and have crazy times.

So we began to build obstacle courses
that were, you know, like you said,

the Tonys and Jones labyrinths.

But where you could go, the horses
could run around, and the horses

that like to jump, we'd build jumps.

And what we do is we'd
change it every two minutes.

So we'd get them in there,
usually in a group, at least

in a pair, occasionally solo.

But as you say, they, they
really appreciate it if they

can do it with their mates.

And then they'd sort of, it got
to the point where they'd go in

there, see what we built, and they,
they would need no encouragement.

They'd just could start running at it and
jumping it and making up their own fun.

And it got really interesting
to see you could build them

jumps where there'd be choices.

You could jump here, you could jump
here, you could not jump there and just

go over a pole, but there's a yoga ball
in the way or whatever, or whatever.

And it was interesting how often they
would choose to challenge themselves.

They'd go for that biggest bit
and we weren't even asking them to

do it, you know, they were just.

Joyfully Ecstatically Express.

And we weren't even particularly
saying to them, you need to jump now.

We are saying, here's the thing,
we'll encourage you a little

bit, we'll interact with you.

See what you wanna do.

And what we found was that we'd, we'd sort
of hit a magic key where then the horse

would turn and look at you after a while.

There would always be these
little pauses in, in between.

But let's say you did 20 minutes
of that, and the horse would

kind of go to go, okay, I'm good.

And they'd sort of just come, or they'd
go to a corner and stand and kind of

look at you and say, okay, what now?

And you'd say, okay, you ready?

And they'd be like, yeah, yeah, I'm ready.

And then you could ask them to
then engage with that 65-year-old

person who's just come from her
job as a, a lawyer or accountant.

You know, she'd be sat there all day.

There's no way in hell she could sit
on a horse that is full of that kind

of bouncy fun, but it wouldn't matter
because the horse had had a chance

to express that with their friends.

And now they're like, okay, I'm, I'm here.

So.

Do you have Strat?

Similar strategies like that.

And obviously we made sure the horses
were fit, that their tendons were good.

We wouldn't do that with
horses that were not like that.

But I don't hear people talking
about this kind of thing so much.

I, I hear much more people talking
about, no, no, let's calm it all down.

Let's calm it all down.

But what if that's not
where the horses at?

You know?

And horses get so bored, you know?

And they love to go nuts.

They're playful animals.

So can do what, how do, how does that
affect your, your practice and your work?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I'm not a trainer, so Yeah.

But I love that idea.

And in, in a way, that's
what I do with my horses.

Yeah.

They

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

get turnout time most mornings,
and they run and, and act crazy.

And sometimes when I go to get
'em in, they, they're not ready.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And so then I just marvel it.

And I think sometimes they
just like to show off for me.

Mm-hmm.

And I go,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

wow.

Yeah.

Look at what you can do.

You know?

And, and appreciate their energy.

And I think we don't give horses voice.

That's, that's a good

Rupert Isaacson: word.

Appreciate.

Sorry.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

We don't, we don't, we just don't
recognize their, giving them options.

And that's what struck me.

You're giving them options.

Mm-hmm.

You're, you're saying, Hey,
what would you like to do?

How would you like to do?

And, and I think that can
take a lot of different ways.

Mm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But and, and I, I also have a, a habit,
I think it would Carolyn Renick is

a a trainer and I, I learned that a
big thing is to sit with my horses.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I have a mounting block in their
corral, and I often just sit with

them and become part of the herd.

Hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I think that connection with
other horses, but if they can't with

someone, is important to recognize.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

I mean, horses are domestic animals,
and it's interesting, you know, people

talk about the wild horse, but none
of the horses that we ride are wild

in any, have, have been wild for
thousands and thousands of years.

They're being selectively bred to
seek out human interaction, what

people would call trainability.

You didn't breed from the horses that
didn't like that, because why would

you if you were on the steps that's,
you know, entirely impractical.

So back to those ach, to people,
you know, thousands of years ago,

beginning to breed the, the horses
that we now use today I think it's

often forgotten that horses actually
want interaction with the monkey now.

But they, as you say,
they do want options.

And in the.

Tribal sense you would
live with your horses.

Right?

You, you live in a yacht.

Yeah.

Horses are around you.

You're never not with them.

Okay.

I don't wanna make people feel bad if
they have to board a horse, but I like

your idea of, again, how do you recreate
that to some degree with something

as simple as, as you say, taking a
mounting block and just sitting with them

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

and, and you know, to, to spare
people from too much guilt.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I had a gilding the one that was injured.

We had a connection and I often beat
myself up that I couldn't provide him,

you know, with acres to run and things.

Mm-hmm.

And when I would try to board him
somewhere where he could, he was

more comfortable being where I was.

Right.

In a less than ideal situation.

Yes.

Than he was out on 40 acres.

Rupert Isaacson: This is so
interesting that you bring that up.

Okay.

Please.

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt.

Go on.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But that, that was something,
it was hard for me to accept.

And, and so that's you know, he, he
taught me a lot of things because

of our connection and because Wow.

He was here in my backyard.

And, and sitting with him was, was
just life-changing experiences.

Having that connection.

I used to take him because at one
point I couldn't ride him anymore, so I

would take him hiking in the mountains
and people would give me a bad time.

'cause I had a young dog on a leash and
my horses at Liberty in the mountains.

Ah.

And you know, walking a dog is pretty
cool, but having a horse in the mountains

where they could go anywhere Yeah.

But they prefer to walk down the trail
with you is, is an amazing experience.

Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.

Yeah.

And if you think about, you know,
the Arab perms about having the

horse in your tent with you.

Yeah.

You know, I've, I was been, I've
been in Mongolia, I've seen horse

culture like that at firsthand.

That yeah, we are supposed to, if we
are horse people, we're supposed to

live tribally not keep them necessarily
like you would in a cavalry barracks,

which is where we inherit the current
stabling systems that we have.

That said, of course, those cavalry
horses, what's forgotten is that they

would go and campaign and not just
when there was a war on, but they would

go on constant maneuvers, you know,
of military exercises all the time.

And of course then they were
picketed, they were standing in

picket lines out there grazed,
you know, with all their friends.

So they actually weren't spending
as much time in a stable stall as

we think they were, those days of
the old cavalry schools, actually.

And if you think about to the old,
old days of urban horses, if they were

out there pulling a cart at a steady
pace around the city for the day,

then they're gonna be pretty happy to
stand even in a small place and chill.

And just kind of in the same way
that I don't care the size of my

bedroom, you know, when I'm tired,
I just want to kind of chill.

I only care about the size of my bedroom
if I don't get outta my bedroom very much.

So I agree with you.

I think a lot of this has been forgotten.

And in the course of my work, you know,
I, I see a lot of horses kept different

ways and I used to have more hard and
fast opinions about it, but I've realized

that those opinions mean nothing.

'cause I've met, as you said, horses
that are really happy, living in less

ideal situations, and horses that
are chronically bored and often a bit

sour, living in more ideal situations.

And what it seems to come down
to is the, is the quality of the

human interaction that they have
and the quality of the interaction

with each other that they have.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

The last two winters we bought
a place close to my grandkids.

So we have 25 acres in a
barn and we live in the barn.

Mm-hmm.

And

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

it has been such an
experience where the horses.

Can come into the barn if they want to,
or they can out and to live that closely.

I have pictures.

In fact, my mule did open up the
apartment door and go in at one point.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And, and I course should, the
storms are so horrific that they

have to come into stalls at night.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And so they're literally out
my front door across the aisle

and living there with them.

It, it's, I I go out to the
arena then come into the

arena from the pasture nothmm

and

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

do my meditation or some distance work
or something, and the horses join in

with me and, and we, we do that together.

Or they just come in and have
coffee with my husband at

the picnic table in the barn.

Or it's, I it's such a cool
experience to just be in, living

in the same building with them.

Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.

I so agree.

You know, often when we're with the
kids, you know, we're sitting at a

picnic table and the horses just come
and join us, you know, and yeah, they

also wanna see what we're eating.

But it's not just about that.

They, they wanna hang.

And then practically, there can
be times when this is really good.

Like a couple of times they've
broken out, you know, at night

and, it's no hassle to go get 'em.

You know, they, they wanna just
go graze over there a little bit.

No problem.

You say, are you good?

If you, if you had your film,
they're like, yeah, okay, fine.

Let's, let's go back in.

Whereas in previous years, you
know, if my horses got out, that

might involve a bit of a drama.

And

it's taken until quite recently for
me to understand what it is to give

the horse a chance to say no and
how good that is for mental health.

But how to actually balance that because
we tend to, you know how it is, we tend

to view things a little bit in extremes
of, well, if you let the horse say no,

then they're gonna say no to everything.

And I've realized that rather, like
with crazy times, it's not true.

So for example, in the work we do
with autism, once, if I've got your

autistic kid or your autistic grand
kid up there with me in the saddle,

I can't afford to have the horse
say no in any way at that time.

Mm-hmm.

So what I realized was I needed
to give them times to say no.

In other times, 'cause as you know,
horses have that innate sense of fairness.

And so if I go out to catch a horse
and it's just me, there's no other, and

the horse just kind of turns his butt
walks away, I'm like, okay, I hear you.

If I then go out the next day and
it's not for me, it's for one of

the kids or something like that,
and I say, Hey, today I need you.

Then it's really interesting.

They're like, okay, fine.

Between like the crazy time
and that, and then I can say

to them like, dude, come on.

You know, I, I'm looking after this.

You have agency and if you really said
no in this situation, okay, fine, I'll

respect that too, but please be a mench.

You know, please help me out here.

And it's so interesting how they
rise to that occasion, but I was

never brought up with that, you
know, as I'm sure you weren't.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah, no, and that's, it's, it's, they
are so intelligent that just letting them

know why you're there and what you need.

And there's been times when you
know, I really need you to do this.

I know you don't want to, but
we really need to do this today.

Can make all the difference
in the world at how they work.

Rupert Isaacson: It's,
I, it's so interesting.

What's it, Linda says I asked her,
what's, if you were to say to somebody,

what is the most important thing

int touch or in anything, just
what's the most important thing?

She said, gratitude.

Just say Thank you to your horse
and see what difference that makes.

She said, and she just threw that
out as a challenge on the podcast.

She said, everyone just try it.

Whether you believe in
it or not, won't matter.

The horse will appreciate it.

Just like people appreciate it
and it, and it can be silent.

Just say it to your horse silently,
but why not say it out loud?

You know, we

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

all like to be appreciated.

Rupert Isaacson: We certainly do.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And they're, they're
certainly no different.

I think, you know, the horses have
signed up in the long term with us.

Mm.

And I think that if we give them the
voice, I think they have a lot of wisdom

to help us know where we're going forward.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly, exactly.

Well, they've been carrying us
for millennia, haven't they?

Yeah.

And if you think about what we've
asked them to do, we've, we've created,

we've committed a lot of atrocities
on horseback, you know, for sure.

Conquest.

And,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

and yet they desert us.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

They, they've kind of hung with us.

And it's so interesting too.

Like we could be the conquistadors
going to the Americas and the horse

becomes an instrument of conquest,
and then those same Native Americans

take the horse and say, okay, fine.

You know, and the horse goes,
yeah, yeah, I'm here available.

And, but what we found with the work we
do with autism is that the horse would

actually much rather show up for healing.

But they're so generous that
if you ask them not to, they'll

kind of do their best for you.

But I don't think that does them any good.

You as, as, as, as a veterinary
practitioner when you're getting

horses that have come in with stories.

Okay, now they have, they've taken
hits to the body and that they've

got ulcers and so on and so on.

Maybe this is where we should go as
we sort of go towards the conclusion.

And by the way, I would like this
to be just the first of a couple of

conversations that we have because there's
other things I'd like to get into with you

that I'm sure listeners would much more
on, on the physical health side as well.

Let's say somebody's running a barn where
they are routinely bringing, bringing in

donated horses is sort of where we began.

And you said, I look at the posture.

I'm gonna look for the ulcers
and see what I need to do there.

Okay,

I'm gonna maybe invest
in these acon a lasers.

Now let's just move to the spine
and let's move to the legs.

Let's say there's kissing spine.

Let's say there's tendon damage,
splints, hawk, arthritis, stifle issues.

It's the standard stuff.

Can you kind of go through the horse and
say, okay, barn owner, kind of here's my

recommendation about how to approach this.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I, you know, that's where I
think Tea Touch is good to learn.

Mm-hmm.

But it's, you know, it's so important
that they have a good farrier

and the feet are trimmed right.

And the teeth are good.

All that affects the horse's
balance and symmetry.

And, and if they don't have those
two key things, we can't do a lot.

We can only go so far.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And it's interesting 'cause in
my early training I was taught

to start at the feet and work up.

I now start at the spine and work down.

Because you've got to, the, the leg
problems come from not using their body

appropriately and being out of balance.

And I find often those issues, if not
too severe, can go away by getting

them to use their body appropriately.

And so that's kind of where I, I start
is, is, you know, working on the fascia

and I, when I started kind of going down
this big rabbit hole, have been amazed at

what we called confirmation is posture.

I worked with Dr.

Rachel Bini Hart.

We would sometimes meet up at the ranch,
and our work was very synergistic.

She's a chiropractor, okay.

And and one day I, I mean, I saw an
andalusian that had huge shoulders,

super high head and no hip.

And when we finished, she
looked like a quarter horse.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I mean, I, I didn't, I thought
that was her confirmation.

And I told Rachel, I said, I
don't see these kind of changes

when I'm working by myself.

I, I truly respect you.

And she said, oh, me neither.

Okay.

So combining our modalities, and I
like that both of what we do didn't

overcook the horse by combining them,

but

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

the horse was able to to be
in its body in a better way.

And that, I think is the foundation of,
I mean, if they're feeling better, the

ulcers will get better, the movement will
get better, the legs will get better.

And that's where you
have to train your eye.

And, and so I, I took this posture
rehab 'cause I'm like, well,

that was posture we're doing.

And I, and I realized then with this
deep dive, you know, how important.

It all is.

And that's the holistic approach
to me is how are they housed?

Do they get to move?

Are their feet right?

Are their teeth right?

Are they moving in a relaxed
manner with their head down, like

in, in t touch encourages that.

The surefoot pads encourage that.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Movement encourages it.

Husbandry is your barn,
is your stall flat?

Is it been used for 20 years?

And there's holes so the horse cannot
stand in a balanced way in that stall

or

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

loafing shed.

All those things start to come into play
and, and you just have to go walk out

to your barn and see different eyes.

How are they standing?

And how can we help that?

And, and you know, and
it's not a perfect world.

And then there's things we
can do, you know, is a saddle

fit is do we need to shim it?

'cause there's asymmetry.

But if that symmetry gets
better, so it's, you know, it's,

it's not a one and done thing.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Interesting.

So yeah, we have a whole
nother thing to talk about.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we do.

And I'd like to get into that.

You know, when we discovered
classical in hand work.

Yeah, it

Rupert Isaacson: was
just such a game changer.

You, you'd have horses coming in with
kissing spine, you'd have horses coming in

with, you know, stifles that effectively
weren't there anymore and stuff.

And just by going through these
patterns, rather like a martial

arts pattern or a, you know, a yoga
pattern sort of, you know, it would

completely, completely transform the
horse, as you say, provided certain

other things have been taken care of.

And that absolute no hopers, you know,
would come in and just completely

transform over time through this type of
movement, which again, just comes down the

ages provided it's not done forcefully.

So it, it's so interesting how you've
also pinpoint movement and as you say, all

the stuff that say Linda Ellington Jones
teaches, which is often modified forms of

that and the labyrinth work and the way
she wraps the horse's bodies and gets them

to activate certain parts of the nervous
system as they're work, as they're moving.

And this sort of thing.

What I feel is often missing, but I'd
like to, we'll go into this in the

next one is it can obviously be very
stressful for people who are running

programs to think, oh shit, well
when am I gonna do all this stuff?

'cause I haven't got time because, you
know, I just got loads of clients coming

in and I must serve these clients.

And also this is what pays, you know.

My wage and the pay bill and so on.

So what we, we've evolved is a
way of making sure that every

client session includes this very
kind of movement weather mounted

or unmounted and always both.

And if it is gonna be a mounted session,
it's always gonna include these unmounted

exercises as part of the therapy session
so that there's no chance of kids ever

just being like, led around in circles.

But it took us a while to evolve to
that, you know, and to say, okay,

well one can actually address that
time conflict and that stress that

so many bar owners and that guilt of,
God, I'm not conditioning my horses.

You know, because people are
coming at it with good intentions.

And to learn how to do
it at the same time.

So what I'm also intrigued by is, you
know, and perhaps we should talk about

this too on the next one, is how to
begin to teach not just barn owners,

but also their clients, how to do the
very things that you are talking about

here, the acupressure, the posture stuff,
how to use the lasers, you know, how

to recognize what is a good farrier,
what is a good dentist, you know?

'cause people don't know, you know, and
they only know if someone tells them.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

That's why I'm doing a class in July.

Okay, so how do we find
out about your class?

So a three day

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

class, and it's, you know, I'm not, I'm
gonna introduce those different things

because you don't have to do it all.

Some of it will resonate.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But you should be aware, and
just like when my horse was

injured, I was aware of the laser.

Granted it took me seven
months to listen to myself, but

mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You know, if, you know, these things are
out there and, and not to bash colleagues,

but when you go into a vet or with a
trainer, you need to know what is okay.

Mm.

'cause you'll be presented with things
that may not be, and I don't know

many horses that are born that have
a steroid deficiency in their joints.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm mm.

And

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

need constant, you know, and Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: so agree.

I so agree.

And,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

and the, you know, that goes down
another rabbit hole, but injecting

the joint when it's because
they're not using their shoulder.

Right, right.

Or, or, you know.

So, that's my purpose of
the class is to tell us

Rupert Isaacson: about the class then.

Where is it?

When is it

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It's at Happy Dog Ranch
in Sedalia, Colorado.

July 21st.

22nd.

23rd.

It's three day.

Okay.

The amazing thing with the ranch
is they have rooms to rent.

So what I love is when there's clinics,
there is the networking and the bonding.

So Happy Dog Ranch is a place that

Rupert Isaacson: people
should be aware of.

No.

Like Chris.

What's

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

that?

Rupert Isaacson: Chrissy and
mark Rashid work out of there.

Yeah.

Just tell us a little bit
about Happy Dog Ranch.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

It's, they, they were pushed out
of Littleton, but it's an old sport

horse barn, so it's a gorgeous
indoor arena, gorgeous outdoor.

They, they are sanctuary when they
take in a horse, they don't try to flip

it in and adopt it back out because
they, part of their philosophy is these

horses have come there for a reason,
and the ones we can rehab, they'll rent

out to people who come from Europe or
East Coast that don't have a horse.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And for like Mark and Chrissy's class,
or there's experiential learning.

So they, all the clinics they attract
are things that help the horse and

human bond, I think is a, is a way.

You know, they're, I've all, like my,
I've, I've been aware of Happy Dog

Rupert Isaacson: Ranch for a while
and I I need to go check it out.

You know, everything like you

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

do.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I'll be glad to show you around.

But now they have 120 acres and
the horses get to live out on

pasture most of the year in herds.

Mm-hmm.

And, but the, you know, the workshop, what
I love is how, you know, a chiropractor

comes from Vermont and, i've met different
work Linda telling Jones has been there.

You know, all these different modalities.

Mm-hmm.

I met them when I was learning
cranial sacral therapy.

We were working on their horses.

So the horses get lots of body work Okay.

Through the massage
class or cranial sacral.

Rupert Isaacson: So they're
feeling pretty good.

Yes.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

So, you know, so they give back.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And, and I, I think a classic,
I went there because I read

the dial qui and I knew that my
gilding worked with me like that.

So I wanted to go horses.

I didn't know.

Okay.

Which took me to Sharon Brion in at
Happy Dog, and my first lesson was

to move a horse in the round pin.

But being a veterinarian, I had to do,
I had to do it from my heart and not

from my head, and I could not do it.

I got that horse to go
maybe a quarter of a circle.

Okay.

And, and I, you know, I, I didn't
take up their time because I could

see this was not gonna happen.

So fast forward 15 years later, I was
in Linda's or Sharon's class because it

was there and we were supposed to go out
in the rant, out in the gilding herd.

And she wasn't gonna let me in to
do this exercise because she thought

they'd all come up and ask for help.

And this is where the horses know.

But I did get to go in and we had to
connect with the horses from our heart.

And so I connected.

I mean, they knew the exercise.

No one came up to ask for help, but
at one point I was surrounded by

three horses, like surrounded with
horse heart energy, and, and I'm just

marveling that 15 years ago I couldn't
even connect with one horse heart.

And, and it was, it was
just the neatest feeling.

And, and the next day I was surrounded by
Mark and Chrissy's three horses as well.

So, it's it's place where magic

Rupert Isaacson: happens.

Well, people will be listening
to this podcast at any time in

the next, you know, 10 years.

Right?

So they may not make
your July, 2025 clinic.

But if they, I presume
you're gonna be running them.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I hope to continue and ex probably expand.

Rupert Isaacson: So this is where, you
know, how do people get in touch with you?

How can they book up to do these clinics?

And also how can people consult with
you perhaps online and, you know,

get the benefit of your wisdom?

How do people contact you?

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Probably the best way is j
Varus DBM at gmail or@yahoo.com.

Rupert Isaacson: J bar, V-A-R-H-U-S.

And after that.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

DVM Dog Veterinary medicine
dvm@atyahooyahoo.com.

Rupert Isaacson: So I'm gonna
read that back for listeners.

Contact Janet on J-V-A-R-H-U-S

dvm@yahoo.com,

J bar dbm@yahoo.com.

Do you have a website as well where
people can find out about your courses?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

I, I don't when I left my practice
site, I'm technically retired,

but that hasn't gone real well.

Rupert Isaacson: Why would one do that?

Yeah.

One could be talking something
to do something else, but Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

No, but you know what?

I went into veterinary medicine because
I knew, I didn't know enough to make

a living, raising, breeding, training
horses, but I could learn to be a vet.

And, you know, about 15 years,
15, 20 years ago, the horses

started calling me back.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And I, I credit them for saving
my life in childhood, and now

I get to give back to them.

Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And it, it's beautiful.

It's my passion and what
I've always wanted to do, so.

Rupert Isaacson: So can, so people
can, can contact you there to

come and partake in your courses,
looking at equine wellbeing at,

at every level, at this, at Happy.

They can

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

also get ahold of at Happy,
happy info@happydog.org.

And

Rupert Isaacson: do ha And does Happy
Dog Ranch also post presumably when

you're gonna be there, I should imagine?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Happy Dog Ranch also
has its own website.

I'm sure I'm gonna

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Go
look at it in a minute.

But type in Happy Dog Ranch listeners
and you're gonna find Janet, mark, and

Chrissy and other wonderful people there.

And can people also
consult with you online?

Like could they zoom like this and say,
okay, I've got this issue, you know?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

Because of the veterinary constraints,
I often do nutrition consulting.

Okay.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But a lot of what I do is not drug based.

Yep.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

So it can fall in the scope of of
just consulting and not out of not

practicing veterinary medicine.

Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

But I do a lot of online consulting or

Rupert Isaacson: because we've
people in the UK or, you know,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

yeah.

And I've actually done some
distance work with people in Europe.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, good.

And Asia, you know, there's,
there's a lot of need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

Rupert Isaacson: you know,
particularly we, we work in Asia

quite a lot and again, people are
trying to do the right thing, but.

They're often being told something
that may or may not be so useful,

you know, then they see that
their horses are going downhill.

This often happens, and they
can really benefit, I think,

from this kind of knowledge.

So I might turn some of the people that
we have over there onto you and say,

look, this lady's a great resource.

She'll help you look at it
from a, there's the work.

I'll help if I can point of view.

Say that again?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah, that's, I'll help if I can.

Rupert Isaacson: Great.

Okay.

So listeners, yeah.

Contact her do the right thing.

Pay her.

But, but contact her and, and ask for
her help because there's, there's a,

there's a lifetime of, of wisdom here.

And the reason that we connected, by the
way, is because Mark and Chrissy Rasheed

said, look, you have to talk to Janet.

She's like, the bear, talk to her.

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, mark and Chrissy told me to do it.

I'm gonna do it.

So we immediately kind of reached out.

And so I'm, I'm so glad this happened,
but I do feel we've only scratched

the surface in the time we've had.

So could we agree that we'll do a part
two and possibly a part three and go

into other aspects like the movement,
you know, like how can we perhaps avoid

injecting joints and things like this?

I, I, I think this is the stuff that
people really do need practically.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Yeah.

Sure.

And I, I mean, I think financially
it's a less least cost.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Often.

And with a better outcome.

Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.

I so agree.

So

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

yeah, no, and that's, that's
just my, like the laser.

I just want to get the word
out that there are options.

Rupert Isaacson: Great.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

And, and on so many levels, there's,
there are options and, and people

are looking for that, I think,
more than they were 10 years ago.

Absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Well, I think we, we've all
tried the other way and for sure.

Yeah.

And when you bump against the
limitations, you must look for

other things, otherwise, yeah.

You'll just keep bumping your nose.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Janet, thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks for giving up so much of your time.

Thank you.

It's been an honor.

I've learned a ton and I've
taken a bunch of notes here and

stuff I'm gonna follow up on.

Well,

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

considering I had no idea
what we were gonna talk about,

has we gone by really fast?

Rupert Isaacson: It has.

So can we book another time to
go down the rabbit hall again?

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

You bet, you bet.

I love that.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

I'll be in touch.

Okay.

And I look forward to
meeting you in person.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

All right.

Till the next time.

Dr. Janet Varhus DVM:

Take care.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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