Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

Big Drum Roll.

I've got Temple Grand in here with us.

This is somebody we all
need to be mentored by.

Those of you who know Horse
Boy Method, movement Method our

programs, it all started with me
seeking out mentorship from Temple.

Why did I do that?

Because I'm not autistic.

So when my son showed up with
autism, I realized that if I went

to anybody else for help who didn't
have autism, well what I'd get would

be an opinion, not lived experience.

And I needed to find somebody
who had started life as severe

as my son, IE, nonverbal, et
cetera, and who'd kind of made it.

And who's that person?

Of course that person is Temple Grandin.

So.

20 years ago, I sat in a office
with you, temple, and I asked

you, how does my son become you?

And you told me to do three things
and I've done the, I did those

three things and everything worked.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And what were the three

Rupert Isaacson: things?

The three things you told me to do
were, number one, follow the child,

which in itself was three things.

He said, you have to follow the child.

Physically like obser observation
because the kid's not gonna tell you if

they're nonverbal, what they wanna do.

You have to sit, you have to follow them.

So you see the patterns
of what they wanna do.

Two, you said you have to follow them
emotionally, which means sensory.

Really.

You have to see what's in the environment
when they're melting down and what's

in the environment when they're happy.

And again, because you're
observing them, eliminate the

bad sensory triggers, which are.

Generally manmade.

And you gave me Yeah.

Some good ones to go with, and that
way the kid will build resilience for

when they have to deal with that stuff.

That's, and then you said the third thing.

I had to follow the child intellectually.

And this was a bit of a, a, a puzzle
for me because I was like, well,

I'm got a non-verbal three-year-old.

I'm not having conversations.

And you pointed out, you
said, ah, but Rupert, it's in

the obsessions, it's in the.

It's in the obsessive interests.

Yeah.

And it's also in the patterns of the
stemming, if it's repetitive banging, if

it's right angles of lining things up,
that could point to a math, science brain.

If it's elliptical lining things
up and sensory type exploratory

stemming, you could be looking at
art, an art storytelling brain,

or you could be looking at both.

And these things completely
made sense to me.

And then you said, okay, you've
also gotta do your stuff outside.

Mostly because there's fewer
bad sensory triggers in nature

because we're just organisms.

That's where we're supposed to be.

And let him move because people on
the spectrum, indeed, most people are

primarily kinetic, kinesthetic learners.

And I followed that advice and
that's what led us to Betsy.

And then that's what led us to the
horse, and that's what led us to horse

boy method and him becoming verbal.

So the, so just a, a thing to listeners
before we, we give over to Temple.

Seek advice if you are in the
neurocognitive field from the

population that you serve, be mentored
by them because they are the ones who

actually understand the condition.

And then if you do that, you're going
to be probably getting rational advice.

Okay.

So Temple, thank you
so much for coming on.

I've rambled.

Tell us what you are working on at
the moment and what do you think in

the neurocognitive field, particularly
for the equine practitioners, what

should we be most aware of now?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I have found that
there's kind of three ways that

autistic kids react to animals.

Love 'em at first sight.

The second kind, afraid of 'em at first.

But then if you introduce 'em slowly
and carefully, then they love them.

And then there's a few kids where
they're probably not appropriate.

Like, they don't like to smell of
the animal or, or something, or the

they're afraid the horse might Winnie.

That's kind of a patterns I've seen.

And I've had parents tell me their kids
said their first words on a horse, and

I think this has to do with rhythm and
balancing going on at the same time.

I just got back in the ICAN conference
and there was a PET scan shown there

that showed that the cerebellum was
underactive and rhythm and balance

stimulates the vestibular system.

Those OTs have found years ago that that
kind of stuff is helpful and we gotta

get these kids out doing things because
Katie Peters, our specialist at, at CSU

did a study and she compared horses.

With taking the child out in
a beautiful garden park that

we own and weightless control.

And the horses were the best,
but the garden had some efficacy.

So I wanna emphasize we
don't have access to horses.

Just getting 'em out in nature,
getting 'em out in a park and,

and looking at plants and talking
to 'em that has some efficacy.

I think that's important.

Rupert Isaacson: And presumably we
want to combine these things, right?

We don't just wanna Absolutely.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

It would be best if you combine,
put kids in isolation and

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Totally agree.

The best thing to do be to combine them.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the other problem I'm running
into now is with getting three year olds

that are nonverbal onto your wait lists.

Hmm.

That's absolutely unacceptable.

And there's some parts of the US where
that's going on right now, so the worst

thing you could do is let 'em zone
out on the phone for for two years.

No, that's what you don't
wanna have 'em doing.

And one of the things that was a big.

Factor in my therapy was when
I was really little, when I was

two and a half, was lots of turn.

Taking games, learning how to wait and
take turns at games, all kinds of little

games, spinning a coin, we're gonna
take turns, spinning the coin, you know,

learn to throw a ball back and forth.

Just do little interactive games.

And what I suggested in a lot
of situations here, they're not

gonna have access to horses.

Well, let's start church play and library
play and let's tap into the retirees.

And there's lots of retirees right now
they are using, it's a generational

Rupert Isaacson: contact.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And.

And get them to come in and
work for these little kids.

And we're gonna call it
library play for legal reasons.

We can't say we're doing
therapy even though we are

Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

It's church play and library play.

Rupert Isaacson: But we've got also,
I prefer the word play because I have

never yet met a kid that wanted therapy.

I've met plenty of kids that would
like to play, but I never yet met

a kid that woke up in the morning,
said, Hey, you know what I want?

I want some therapy.

Yeah, no,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

no.

But they, they, we've got to do something.

And these are places I've
been to within the last year.

This is right now, right now.

Not something 10 years ago.

It's now the last 12 months.

And we've got to start working
with 'em and we've gotta just

tap into whatever resources we've
got there in the neighborhood.

Rupert Isaacson: So when you say
church play and library play, what,

can you describe what that entails?

What does it look like?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, a good teacher, I've watched
them just knows how, how to.

Push just enough to get into
the kids' world to interact.

Mm-hmm.

So you might start out taking turns
if he's flapping something, take turns

flapping it, it's something that basic
take turns spinning a single coin on.

Some of this is somewhat done in the
Sunrise program in an old, old book called

The Hidden Child emphasized on on getting
in an interaction, going with the kid

where there's some kind of an interaction.

And what I have found is some teachers
have the knack to do this and some don't,

Rupert Isaacson: but
teachers that don't, some

Dr. Temple Grandin:

people just instinctively
can engage these kids,

Rupert Isaacson: but the, for the
pe, the people that don't, and let's

face it, a lot of horse people are.

A little bit too horse focused.

What's your advice for how to enter
into the world of an autistic child?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, you might just he flaps you flap.

Rupert Isaacson: So some,
some degree of imitation.

It might be that simple.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Or let's say we're in a library and
or church basement or someplace like

that and the good teacher might just
start doing something like that.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And then gradually get it into
where we take turns doing something.

Okay.

And is that building what they call
theory of mind, a turn taking activity?

And I've watched these teachers
that just have the knack.

Some people have it, some don't.

And we've got so many retirees and
I just read an article the other

day, cruises and golfers are not
all what it's cracked up to be.

They'd probably rather be having,
doing something worthwhile

working with these kids.

Yes.

And I don't, I don't
know what else we can do.

They, the only resources they've got are
their church or their library and just, or

neighborhood group, something like that.

And this is something that, you know,
real low income communities could do this.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's not trying.

The worst thing

Dr. Temple Grandin:

you can do is nothing.

Yeah.

That's the worst thing you can do.

Let them, let them watch TV all
day or play with phones all day.

That's exactly what they
should not be doing.

Rupert Isaacson: Now once you've got
some interaction going and presumably

some theory of mind beginning to form
I've heard you often say, we've gotta

get these kids out there doing things.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yes, absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: When, when kids are at
this, that fragile state where they're

just beginning to come out of their
shell, but they're still having trouble

understanding top-down instruction
and, you know, it could be so easy to.

Kill their confidence
and knock them backwards.

Yeah.

What's your advice on beginning
to help them to do tasks?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, first of all, I just
gotta interact with 'em before

I can start working on talking.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I've got to just get interacting with 'em.

My therapy had a huge amount of
emphasis on taking turns at games.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And then you broaden the games
that you play, you know, and Bill

Gates and I both had a lot of
card games, a lot of board games.

That's when we got older
and we were talking.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Because what

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I think this did is it helps
you to inhibit a response.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Got to wait your turn.

That's something really, really important.

And then just, I can remember
being taken out for walks and

we'd go identify plants and.

We had maple trees and you, you
know, they, we call them maple

keys, the thing seed things, and you
could throw 'em up in the air and

they'd spin like little helicopters.

I can remember doing that
when I was very young.

You could also pull 'em
apart, stick 'em on your nose.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Another thing that we did, now other
parts of the world won't have that type

of tree, but that's something that we had.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But that basic interaction with nature,
sort of sensory, exploratory, it's

Dr. Temple Grandin:

interaction.

That's right.

It's interaction.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And I remember making
daisy chains as a kid.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You know, sitting in the
middle of a field doing that.

These are things that didn't,
you know, cost anything to do.

Rupert Isaacson: I think that's one that
you just getting me out doing things

Dr. Temple Grandin:

and then a little later on.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it

Dr. Temple Grandin:

would had snow where I lived
and so I, would it be one sled?

My sister and I had to take turns
going on the sled going down the

hill, learn how to take turns.

Another just in all sorts of activities.

Rupert Isaacson: The daisy chain
is interesting to me because

the daisy chain is a task.

But it's a task that one can do
meditatively and also without

too much top down instruction.

'cause one can observe
how somebody else does it.

Well you just

Dr. Temple Grandin:

show them how to do it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

But I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

remember making daisy chains as a kid.

I can remember looking
for four leaf clovers.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And that's another thing we used to do.

'cause we had a lot of
clover where I lived too.

And you know, then we'd go for drive.

So it was a game where you spot different
things when you're out for a drive.

Can you spot a white horse?

Can you spot a sign for a
particular type of gas station?

Mm-hmm.

And it was a game that, you
know, we played on car trips.

Make car trips less boring.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And I could see how even that the
I spy stuff is actually a task.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

It's 'cause you have a mission.

It's, I would now remember you know,
it was a little cards that we got and I

remember what we did find a white horse.

You had to find a certain sign
for certain brand of gasoline.

Mm-hmm.

Certain types of cars you looked for.

And that gave, I remember doing
this and it gave us you know, made

a two hour trip, a lot less boring.

Rupert Isaacson: And of course, one can
do that stuff on the back of a horse.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well the, yeah.

And the other thing I wanna talk about
is high expectations with accommodations.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Tell us about that.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I'm hearing, I'm hearing a lot
more problems right now with

opposition, oppositional defiant,
and all that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And there were certain
things I was expected to do.

Also wanna let you know, there's
a new book out by Bill Gates.

It's official.

He's autistic called Source Code.

And what's interesting is the way he
was brought up was very similar to me.

You know, when we were fully verbal,
we had to sell candy for charity

to learn how to talk to people.

When we were eight years old, I,
we had to dress up in good clothes.

And when the parents had a
party talk to the guests.

Now I'm realizing just how important
that was teaching me on how to go

up to people, Melissa, about high
expectations with accommodations.

And he had just the right amount of
pressure to do things with some support

and, and when we went on vacation,
we had to go on one of these ferries

where you drive onto it, the cars.

And this boat had a horrible loud horn.

And when we were sitting up on the
deck and the horn went up, I found

myself on the deck and I screamed.

Now, they did not make
me sit under that horn.

They let me ride in the cabin below.

That was the accommodation.

But we are going on that verity.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But we will make an accommodation.

You can sit in the cabin below.

Okay.

Today it'd be noise canceling headsets
that did not exist in the fifties.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But that was the accommodation, you know.

Then we'd have Sunday dinner at
Granny's or at my aunt's house, and

I had a place where I could exercise.

There was a hall I was allowed to
run up and down, and that helped

to, you know, keep me calmer.

Then there was some rules.

You had to sit at the family table
for 20 minutes, and then if I asked

to be excused and dessert, dessert
hadn't served, didn't get any.

So if I wanted dessert, I had
to stay at the table longer.

Also, always some choices
on, on doing things.

You know, there's things you gotta do.

We're going to go on that ferry, but
you don't have to sit under the horn.

You can sit in the cabin under the deck.

And that's where I went.

Rupert Isaacson: When we get to the point
where we now want to think about actual

meaningful tasks, so for example, you,
you were describing selling cookies.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: To learn to, you were
describing learning how to talk to people

graciously at a dinner par, you know, at
a party when people are being welcomed in.

One of the things I feel that is a
really sometimes missed opportunity

in the equine field is that the
kids can do so much around the farm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Exactly.

Clean the salt and the best

Rupert Isaacson: programs I see are
the ones where the kids are, or adults

too, are fully involved to whatever
degree they can be in everything from

cleaning the poo to landscaping, to
looking after the chickens to Right.

And also particularly
learning about tools.

Yeah.

Talk to us about that because I, well, I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

can remember weeding the
garden when I was really young.

You know, we had some landscaping and I
can remember taking weeds out of that.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I was doing that as a really young child.

Yeah.

Kids need to get involved
with this sort of stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: I remember when
I, I think Rowan was, he's now

23, when he was about 14 I began
to worry that he didn't have.

A work ethic, even though he was
growing up on a ranch and we'd

made all sorts of accommodations
and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And he was doing all his homeschooling,
but I was thinking, oh man, you

know, this is his time to build
technical skills and also physical

strength, and how do I do this?

How do I do this?

And so one day I was going out trail
trail clearing, and I had a, a machete

and I had big clippers to open up a trail.

And I knew he'd be really scared of that.

And so I said to him, would you just, he
was talking to me about something and I

said, what you're saying is fascinating,
but I have to go and clear this trail.

Would you please come and talk
to me while I do this so I

don't miss what you're saying?

And immediately he smelled a rat, you
know, he was like, oh, dad's gonna make

me do something I don't want to do.

So I said, don't worry, I'm not gonna
make you, you know, use these tools, but

I do need, I do wanna hear what you say.

So I wanted him to observe me using them.

And then somewhere into that day I said.

Do you want to have a go
and cut like one branch?

And he is like, no.

He is totally afraid of failure
of the blade of everything.

And I said, okay, here's my challenge.

Can you touch it with the tip
of your finger for one second?

Just one second.

Can you touch it like that?

And I made a big joke out of it.

I touched it myself and they went,
oh my God, you're really hot.

So I was burning and I fell
on the floor and I pretended

to, you know, make a big deal.

He laughed, he thought, found that funny.

And he did touch it for that one second.

And then the next day he
touched it for two seconds.

And by the third day he had a go to clip.

One thing, fast forward two weeks
later we were in the middle of a

thicket, Texas heat, mosquitoes,
insects, itching, thorns, scratching.

And we were hacking and slashing our
way through this and clipping and

clipping talking about something.

And I realized that not
two weeks before he'd had.

Complete fear and resistance.

And I now had amnesia that
that had ever happened.

And a sort of penny drop for me about
the need for tools and technical

skills, but coming into them gradually.

I've heard you talk quite a lot about
the need for particularly people

on the spectrum to establish these
hands-on technical tool-based skills.

Can you talk about why
that's so important?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, just learning how
to, how to do things.

I can remember in second grade I was
using screwdriver, pliers, and hammer,

and I had these little parachutes
and I wanted to design a mechanism

to make them open more quickly.

And so I learned how to take the
pliers and cut coat hangers and bend

like the end so I could make a cross
beam like this, tie the strings

to, and it wasn't strong enough to
just clip it, but I'd make a dent.

The coat hanger, and then I'd
go like this and, and break it.

I remember doing that.

Rupert Isaacson: Did someone
show you how to do that?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah, somebody, yeah, they they
showed me how to use the pliers,

but I wasn't strong enough.

I was in second grade to just cut it.

I, I made a dent and then I bend
it like this and then, then I

could take the ends of the wire
and bend it and tie the string on.

I used to tinker for hours.

With stuff like this, did you have any

Rupert Isaacson: point where
you were afraid of the tools

Dr. Temple Grandin:

and Yeah.

In the beginning, yeah.

I was kind of afraid of the tool, you
know, and then you learn how to use it.

Okay.

Hammering nails with a hammer.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember the
process by which you lost your fear?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Lost what?

Rupert Isaacson: You lost the
process by which you lost your fear.

It started

Dr. Temple Grandin:

gradually, just gradually using it.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You know, I think that I,
you know, someone had to show

me how to use it and then.

Just get me using it.

Rupert Isaacson: And I presume
too, people were using these

tools around you all the time too.

Yeah, that's right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Yeah.

Then you, you see it.

You see we've got kids growing
up today where they're just

totally removed from the, the
world of all the practical things,

and I think that's a big problem.

Think it's a really big problem.

Rupert Isaacson: What do you see
as the biggest problem with that?

Because as you know, up until quite
recently, a lot of people have put their

faith in tech and said, well, you know,
don't worry about that because all these

young autistic kids, they're all gonna
grow up to be techies, so they don't

need to learn these hands on skills.

I've heard that.

I think it's

Dr. Temple Grandin:

ridiculous.

I think it's ridiculous.

We've got to get them out just doing
things and then showing them how to do it.

I can remember walking on the beach and
getting, picking up shells, and then we'd

make mosaics and we glue them shells to.

Cardboard and make artwork.

And I was shown how to use the glue
in, stick the shells on the cardboard.

I remember making a turtle that had
shells for its, you know, made the

shell, the turtle out of shells.

But someone, you know, someone
shows you how to do it.

And then I really liked
doing those things.

Rupert Isaacson: What's the
neuroscience more or less of

learning how to use these tools?

Like what does it do to your brain?

Why is it important?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I give another, my sister and
I outside rock collections and one

of the things we love to do is take
a hammer and bust a rock in half

to see what it looked like inside.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And we did quite a bit of that
on, see what happened today.

Like their apartment buildings
right near where I live.

You never even know that
kids live in those buildings.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Except I see the school bus
unloading them and loading them.

That's the only way I would know that,
you know, five year olds, six year

olds, seven year olds, you know, fairly
little kids living in that building.

Even though it has a nice fenced in
playground, I never see the kids on it.

I think that's a, a shame.

And there's a lot of controversy now about
problems with social media being bad.

We just gotta get 'em, limit the screens.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And get them out doing real stuff.

All kinds of real stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: Again,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

what And choices.

And this was done with Bill Gates
on his mother, put him in Cub

Scouts, get him out doing things.

You know, when we went away for the
summer, there was a neighborhood

children's group where we'd play softball
and different organized games with

maybe, you know, seven or eight kids and.

That got me out out of
my room doing things.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

We've gotta get 'em out doing things.

And if you have horses, a available great.

And then the kids should be
helping to clean the stalls

and take care of the horses.

Rupert Isaacson: What back, I think
it, it's helpful for people to actually

sort of understand a little bit what
goes on in the brain if kids do do

this stuff and what doesn't go on in
the brain if they don't do this stuff.

Do you have any insights there?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well

see, just getting out and
doing the motor stuff.

I mean, the occupational therapist
all the time talking about heavy

work and exercise is calming.

Mm-hmm.

But I worked with people that
owned big machine shops that

were definitely autistic.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and they just
grew up with tools.

They took shop class when
I was in, in high school.

I think one of the worst
things the schools have done.

Taking out the hands-on classes.

Right.

When I was in elementary school
I did shop class in fifth grade.

I was sewing with a to toy sewing
machine that actually sewed

in fourth grade, first grade.

We did all kinds of clay projects, and of
course in my generation we made ashtrays.

That would never happen now.

But our school had all of these
hands-on activities and I, and

we can't do everything online.

Rupert Isaacson: No.

A again, if we, I mean,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I think we need to be, be I, we were
limited to one hour of television a day.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Period

Dr. Temple Grandin:

wasn't banned.

And mother had to approve the shows.

You know, Lassie was definitely
approved also on the news.

You didn't see some of the
stuff you're seeing now.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

The news was just talking
heads and kind of boring.

I didn't wanna watch that in the fifties.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm mm.

If you don't cultivate these motor skills,

what is the cost to the brain?

What does not happen that should happen?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I think there's just one thing
that calms the kids down.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Doing

Dr. Temple Grandin:

these things.

Also, I look at things
very career oriented.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

These are,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

this can lead to careers.

Now, let's say you have a kid
that, that's good at math.

Now that's not gonna show up in a
3-year-old, but let's say around

age six, seven, really good at math.

You need to move ahead in math.

Don't do baby boring math.

Move ahead.

That's not being done.

See, there's kind of a philosophy in a
lot of our schools that kids are just all

the same and they're not all the same.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

We need to be building on strengths.

I mean, my art ability was encouraged
and I was encouraged to draw lots and

lots of different kinds of things.

Rupert Isaacson: So these days, or until
recently anyway, there has been, like

I said, I had this great faith in tech.

And because so many techies are on
the spectrum, I think there's been

perhaps a bit of a skewed perspective
that, well, it doesn't matter if these

kids grew up with practical skills
because they're gonna go on and become

techies working in the tech industry.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I think you, what do you think about

Rupert Isaacson: that?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, yeah, I go ahead and work in
the tech industry, but you still

need to be doing practical things.

Mm-hmm.

And let's look at Steve Chops.

He was playing around with tools
in his next door neighbor's garage.

Mm-hmm.

What Steve Chops was doing.

Rupert Isaacson: Because one, I know he

Dr. Temple Grandin:

wasn't, it wasn't just all devices.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And it, it seems to me that with
AI coming in so fast, a lot of the

tech jobs of the last 20 years,
oh, we're, we're will change.

Right?

We're not

Dr. Temple Grandin:

getting the, another reason for
teaching skilled trades is they'll

be laughing all the way to the bank.

They'll have jobs when other people
are getting laid off, low level

programming's already getting replaced.

Video game industry just laid
off a whole ton of people.

I've been reading in the Wall Street
Journal, this corporate office

now laid off a bunch of people.

Some companies do it nicely.

Some companies do it nasty.

And, but some of these jobs are
gonna be getting replaced with ai

where things like fixing elevators.

It's not, and as I travel around,
I'm seeing way too many elevators

that are not being serviced.

Broken or making really weird
ominous noises, like I'm gonna

get stuck in it right now.

And I was in the hotels the
other day where one of the cars,

there were six elevators there.

So that one on the left
we're not going in.

I don't like the way it's acting.

We'll wait for another one.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Getting stuck in an elevators,
not something I wanna do.

Rupert Isaacson: Now, some
people would say that I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

don't need to have that experience.

Rupert Isaacson: Some people would
say that, oh, well all those jobs

are gonna be replaced by robots.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

No

Rupert Isaacson: bs.

Why?

Why is that bs?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, one of the problems is, is you've
got lots of different kinds of elevators.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You've got some so variable.

And I wanna talk now some about
the different kinds of thinkers.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

And

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I discussed that in my book.

Visual thinking.

And I'm an object visualizer.

So the kinds of things I'm gonna
be good at building things, working

with animals, 'cause animals
that live in a sensory world.

Photography and art, and then
you have your mathematical mind.

That's totally, you know, interested
patterns, music and math go together.

And then you got the autistic
kids, more of a word thinker.

They, they know all the word facts
about their favorite movies or favorite

type of sports, something like that.

And,

and the ones that are object visualizers,
like me, we can't do higher math.

I'm worried that algebra
requirements are gonna screen us out.

But you need us.

I had a very interesting flight
on a plane just about a month ago.

Talked to a military VE
veteran, went in the army and

she failed algebra in college.

But she took the mechanical aptitude test
for the army, got a super high score.

They put her to work fixing airplanes.

Mechanical aptitude is a skill.

It is, that's definitely merit based.

And our school system doesn't
put any value on that.

They value mathematical skill
and they value language skill,

but not mechanical aptitude.

And I think that's a problem.

Rupert Isaacson: As you say, you
know, shop has been taken out

Dr. Temple Grandin:

well and what we're doing, we're
putting shop back in the community

colleges, but that's almost too late.

We need to be hooking
kids much earlier on.

Tools and things like that.

And I was doing this stuff in, well,
in Europe you'd call primary school.

Mm-hmm.

We call it elementary school.

On working on these things really early.

Rupert Isaacson: Should we, in that
case if we're right, if we're equine

practitioners, should we have a shop,
should we have a workshop where,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

well, I think we ought to have a workshop

Rupert Isaacson: because
this is often not there.

You know, it's often, you know,
kids come, they're, they're put on a

horse, they're given their session.

And then they go home.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I think we need to be, you know,
I think get the kids involved with

everything, with the horse, putting a
tack on the horse grooming a horse before

and after cleaning stalls, feeding them.

Rupert Isaacson: Does it
need to go further than that?

Do we need to be working,
doing the leather work?

Do we need to be sewing up,
you know, boards to build

new store, the fencing, the,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

you know, well, yeah, and I, when I
took care of horses when I was in high

school and the horse kicked a hole in the
back of the stall, yeah, I did fix it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Something that I did and, and
I did do some carpentry, simple

carpentry work on the barn.

But I remember one of the horses,
I kicked the whole back of the

stall out and I went and I found
these super hard old oak boards.

It was so hard you couldn't nail nails
from and put them up in the back of the

stall, and he was not able to kick those.

Rupert Isaacson: So would
it be a really good idea?

For example, let's say you are
an overworked person running a

therapeutic riding program and you
are just busy with the whole thing.

You talked earlier about
getting retirees into help.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, we need to be getting retirees in.

And the other thing is, I know
that like in a path program they ev

everyone's very concerned about safety,
getting sued and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm.

That can get to the point where that
can cripple you because I'd like to

see retired mechanic come in and start
teaching some auto shop to some of these.

Absolutely.

Not the five year olds, but some of
the older kids and, and some of the

people that are, that are in the tech
industry have been extremely successful.

Weren't just all screens.

They were out doing all
kinds of hands-on stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

Well, yes, the generation that created
the tech industry, of course there were

no screens when they were growing up.

Well, the

Dr. Temple Grandin:

other difference on the video games
is that some of the older tech people.

When video games would crash all the time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

And

Dr. Temple Grandin:

instead of just coming up with a blue
screen of death saying the system's

crashed all this code would show up.

I call it a computer showing its guts.

Okay.

When the old systems crashed, you
then got a blue screen full of code.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, that would get the kid interested.

That doesn't happen now.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

They just get, it's just off
and there's now system error.

I remember when, when Microsoft crashed
and all the airport screens were blue.

But it doesn't show code.

The older stuff, when it
broke, it showed code.

Rupert Isaacson: It seems to
me what you're really talking

about here is problem solving.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yep.

And then the other thing with some
of the older stuff, they were making

hardware too, actually putting
computers components together.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

It was much more, much more hands-on.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Building motherboards.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

And that's building things.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And, and now it's just all online.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Okay.

So I'm listening to this.

I'm a therapeutic riding barn owner.

Let's say, okay, I've, I've heard you.

So I'm gonna reach out to my
local retirement communities.

I'm gonna find who are the
people there who know how to

have these practical skills.

I create a workshop, a shop where all
this technical stuff is going on in the

therapeutic riding campus, if you like.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

At broadening it out, you know, and
I think horses are very part of, but

the other thing I did for the horses
is I spent hours getting ready for

junior show English acquisition.

I also showed in a small
open, regular horse show, just

a little small local show.

And I would go in the trail class and we
had to practice going up and opening a

mailbox and, but we showed in horse shows
open to the public real horse shows.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Myself and my roommate, and
we went to the special school.

I think that was important.

We went to real horse shows.

Mm-hmm.

And we showed in them, and they were
either a four H show or a very small

little local horse show, but it was
still an open normal horse show.

There's

Rupert Isaacson: a, and then you

Dr. Temple Grandin:

gotta learn, then you gotta learn
all the behaviors you gotta do there.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And have to deal with the long day.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And that, that's, I had two parts of
horses getting ready for show, going to

horse shows, and then taking care of 'em.

Mm-hmm.

I clean nine stalls every day.

I fed them.

I was very responsible.

When somebody says responsibility,
I see this big wooden grain box and

that Purina lina it and you gotta
shut that lid and turn the latch.

'cause if a horse gets
into that, they can die.

Rupert Isaacson: When I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

think of responsibility, I make sure I
put the lid down and I turn the latch.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember yourself?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I remember that very well and,
and they trusted me that I would

always close that box and, and turn
the latch after I fed the horses.

Rupert Isaacson: What's your memory,
personally of when you came from

sort of non-verbal to verbal?

Do you have a sense in your memory of
like fog clearing or something like that?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

No.

It was more like I could, if grownups
talked fast, it went to gibber.

Hmm.

If grownups talked slowly, I could
understand fact, I thought the

grownups had their own language.

I used to call it grownup talk.

And, and then as I started to get
my words, and it came in a few

stressed words at a time, single
words, I was slow to get it out.

And it was very frustrating.

I remember when I was five, and by this
time I was verbal, I was in kindergarten

class and we had a little assignment
where there were pictures of things

like a bicycle, a suitcase, a bird
bath and other things, and a house.

And we had to mark all the pictures
that began with B as in beautiful.

So I marked a suitcase for B for bag.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah, and

Dr. Temple Grandin:

the teacher marked it wrong, and I
wasn't given time to explain that

we called suitcases bags, that
I did understand the B concept.

I was five.

Mm-hmm.

And it, I, I just couldn't
get it out fast enough.

That was very frustrating.

I could talk at this point, but
it was like a slow computer.

It took me time to get it out.

Rupert Isaacson: When did that change
and why did that change, do you think?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I think just as I
developed, I got better,

Rupert Isaacson: but
not everybody got better

Dr. Temple Grandin:

by that time.

By that time I could, well, I
remember a time before I could talk

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Getting extremely frustrated, didn't wanna
wear a hat, and we were in the driveway.

We were gonna drive to the little school
that the, the teachers taught out in their

house where it got early intervention.

So I just thought, I'm gonna scream
and throw it on the floor of the car.

Melissa said, pick it up.

So then I chucked it out the window on the
drive our driveway to made me go get it.

And then I got the brilliant
idea of throwing it out the

window when we were driving.

But back in the fifties, cars
had crank windows and I wasn't

strong enough to turn the crank.

So mother had her window open.

So I leaned over her and I chucked the
hat and that caused it to swerve and, and

we got sideswiped by a tractor trailer.

Very lucky we weren't killed.

But I can remember thinking to
myself, I'm gonna scream now.

This is how I'm gonna say
I don't wanna wear the hat.

I actually thought about that.

See now I may have been, you know,
quite younger than five by five.

I could talk, but I was
slow to get the words out.

I remember this assignment very
clearly with the, when I marked the

suitcase B for bag and they didn't
give me time to explain in our house.

Those were bags.

And that began with B.

Rupert Isaacson: You had then developed
where you could compute language

faster and get it out well, yeah,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I did.

I got a whole lot better
and, but it came slowly.

I was not an oleic kid.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely

Dr. Temple Grandin:

not the echoic type.

Rupert Isaacson: You
were not echoic, okay.

Absolutely

Dr. Temple Grandin:

not.

Okay.

No.

My speech came in a few stressed
words at a time, singing words.

When you say stressed

Rupert Isaacson: words, what
do you mean by that exactly?

Well,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I might go B football.

Rupert Isaacson: I see.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And I didn't hear the the B and the L so
my speech did a lot of slow enunciation.

Like she'd hold up a cup and she'd
go cup, and then she'd go cup pa.

Really put, slowing it down and
enunciating those hard constant sounds

because otherwise I to have, ugh.

You see, my problem was I've got
some auditory processing problems

and I don't hear consonants,
like if you said sat or rat.

I don't think I've ratted.

I, you know, rat on a chair.

I sat on a chair.

And,

and I still have to figure out
some of those words by context.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I don't think I'd have a pet
bat, but I might have a pet cat.

I just deliberately emphasize.

Sounds there.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

do you, you think I
definitely not echoic that.

Do

Rupert Isaacson: you think

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I had, well I had some auditory
processing 'cause when the grownups

talked too fast, it went to GI British.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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And it's interesting 'cause you know,
I'm in a position now where I'm having

to learn a third language later in life.

And it's exactly like,
it's exactly the same.

So my German is actually quite
good if I'm speaking one-to-one.

Some, you know, lots of
grammatical mistakes.

But I can definitely converse.

You can communicate.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But as soon as
German true German speakers are

just like, properly, properly.

Fast back and forth.

Yeah.

You know, I'm lost.

And I presume that with more and
more exposure, it'll get less.

And it is indeed, oh, it'll

Dr. Temple Grandin:

get better.

That, that's sort of the
way I, it, it does give one

Rupert Isaacson: such empathy for
kids that are struggling with speech.

Do you think, here's a question.

All of those things that you did so
very young in terms of this exposure to

nature, a lot of these tasks, a lot of
the fact that life was quite physical,

if you had been growing up now and you
had been looking at screens a lot, 'cause

that's just the culture and it's easier.

And as you say, you, you drive past
these apartment buildings where you, you

don't know that there's kids in there
because you don't see exactly that one.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Right.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: If you walk

Dr. Temple Grandin:

away where I live,

Rupert Isaacson: let's, let's say that
Temple Grandin is a little girl today with

the same issues, but now being exposed to
a lot of screen time, what do you think

would be, what would've happened to you?

What would happen to you?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I don't think I would've
developed as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

No.

You know, you gotta get out and do things.

And then things I'm realizing
how important things like the

parties, like when we'd had a party

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

My parents had a party.

We, when I was like eight or
nine years old, all the kids

in our neighborhood did this.

It was just a fifties thing.

But then when I found out Bill Gates
did the same thing, and when the

guests came, you had to greet them at
the door and say, good evening, Mr.

And Mrs.

Wood, you know, take your coat.

And we weren't allowed
to use their first names.

Everything was really formal.

That taught interaction.

And the other thing is, a lot of autistic
kids today, the mom does all the talking.

They'll come up to me at the book
table and the mom will say, my

son wants to get the book signed.

Well, the kid needs to be
asking to get the book signed.

The parents do too much for the kid.

I'm seeing way too many smart
teenagers that have never

gone shopping by themselves.

These are things I was doing when I
was eight, 10 years old by myself.

Just aren't doing enough stuff.

There's a big problem, even with normal
students when they start to fail a class.

They don't ask for help soon enough.

A really serious problem

Rupert Isaacson: again.

Why do you think that is?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I think it goes
back to these parties.

You learn how to talk to people
and selling stuff for charity.

Rupert Isaacson: Are we living
a much more isolated life?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You've got to talk to the people.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But do you think that's not
happening anymore, do you think?

No, it's not

Dr. Temple Grandin:

happening.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

It's not.

Why do you think

Rupert Isaacson: it's not happening?

Why is it not happening?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, the mom just does it all for 'em.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Okay.

Like if I go to the supermarket
and there's a girl that's

selling Girl Scout cookies.

Mom is right there doing
most of the talking.

The kids, kids should be walking up
to the customers and asking them.

Rupert Isaacson: Now in this
day and age, he's not doing

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that.

Rupert Isaacson: Things can be dangerous.

So mom might need to be there.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, what Mrs.

Gate Safety.

So what's the, what's the middle line?

Mrs.

Gates did?

She'd drive bill around the neighborhood
park in front of the house, and

Bill would've to go up to the door.

She's right there.

She can see it, but he had to go
up to the door alone and sell.

It was mixed nuts is what he was selling.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I guess perhaps he had established

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that.

Rupert Isaacson: Could we, at
therapeutic riding bonds, could

we, could we simulate these things?

Like for example, could we say, okay,
today is cookie selling day at the barn?

Yeah,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

sure you could.

Rupert Isaacson: So that's a controlled
environment where we can give support,

we can make sure the child is safe.

Well, that's right.

But we can also get 'em to
expand their comfort zone a bit.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But we get them.

But you know, my brother is not autistic.

He hated the parties.

Hated them.

But you know what he admitted,
he admitted that it helped him to

become a senior bank vice president.

'cause he could talk to older men and
his friends weren't able to do that.

Rupert Isaacson: That's interesting.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And so my non-autistic
brother was helpful.

This party thing was something everybody
did in the fifties in my neighborhood.

Yeah.

So then diplomacy, when it started.

Put your good clothes on, greet the
guests, learn how to talk to 'em.

And I thought it was interesting
that the way Bill Gates was brought

up was very similar and he had to do
the party thing and selling stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: So, for example,
again, let's say we're running

a therapeutic riding place.

Would it be a good idea for us
to have the kids take turns being

greeters, let's say we have Yes.

Yes.

These families showing up?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yes, yes.

That's, yes.

That would be kind of the same thing.

You could do that at
therapeutic writing place.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Because a, a lot of these kids,
they're too scared to come

up and just talk to people.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And there's a scene in the HBO
movie where I go up to the editor

of the magazine and I get his card.

Well, selling stuff made it easy
to go up and ask for the card.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

How would you have dealt
with rejection though?

That, and

Dr. Temple Grandin:

working for that magazine was very
important for getting my career started.

Very important.

Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.

Let's say he'd given you a
negative reaction, let's say.

He'd said, no, go away.

You are weird.

I don't wanna talk to you.

Would that have crushed you or
would you have had the resilience to

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I think it would have resilience because
sometimes he had some customer in the

neighborhood that told you to go away.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

You see, they didn't wanna buy the candy
and we knew which houses were grouchy

and you still had to go up to 'em.

Rupert Isaacson: Because when
we're dealing with people that have

overdeveloped, amygdalas, we're dealing
with people with a lot of anxiety

Dr. Temple Grandin:

and they get scared easily.

Rupert Isaacson: Rejection
is a thing, right?

It's a big thing.

Yeah.

So how do we dance around that?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, the other customers
didn't reject it.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I remember a time writing an article
one time and had a, and somebody wrote

a really nasty letter to the editor
and I was really upset about that.

And I talked to several my people
about it, and they said that you need

to, you know, it's just one letter.

Other people liked the article,
but I, I was very upset about them.

Rupert Isaacson: What if we then,
let's say we set this program up at a

therapeutic riding barn where their kids
are greeting and the kids are selling.

Yeah.

Could we also then set up some situations
in which they are rejected or refused in

a controlled situation where like, Mr.

And Mrs.

Grouch come in and we even make
like joke out of it or something.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

People that kind of play Mr.

And Mrs.

Grouch.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And, and they role play.

They cannot not have 'em do anything
really mean or anything, but just

say, no, I don't wanna buy that today.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

They just, something like that.

And to gradually build,
I don't want cookies.

I got

Dr. Temple Grandin:

enough cookies, you know
it, and then just walk off.

Rupert Isaacson: I could see that.

I'd

Dr. Temple Grandin:

like to have a bunch of success
first before that happens.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

So yeah, build success, but then
gradually have controlled other types of

Dr. Temple Grandin:

well, and then other things.

The other thing I think is important
is, is I have a lot of grandparents

come up to me and they discover their
autistic you know, later in life, they

all have decent careers, good jobs.

That's because at age 11,
they had paper routes.

Now I know those no longer exist,
but we gotta do paper route

substitutes walking the neighbor's
dog, maybe a church volunteer job.

It's very important that the boss
is somebody outside the family.

It's Mr.

Jones's dog,

not your own dog.

And you have to do it every morning at
six o'clock in the morning and be on time

and take it out for a half an hour walk.

Rupert Isaacson: Again, this sounds
like something we could set up at.

That's right.

Good therapeutic things.

Provided we have the manpower, which might
go back to getting retirees and to help.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I think after, when I took
a look at the, two weeks ago, I

took a look at our national budget.

I looked it up in the business
magazines and I just had sort

of, we gotta tap into retirees.

They're half our national budget.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

We've got to tap into them and a
lot of 'em would like to have the

opportunity to work with the kids so
they could really make a difference.

I'm 77 years old, I'm still working.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Some of these retirees are 55 or 60, you
know, 20 years, 15 years younger than me.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

I wonder what's the best
way to go find them?

I mean, do you just, would
one literally just sort of go

to retirement communities or,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

oh, you just have to go to, we
have a senior center over here.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Right.

A few, you know, less than a
quarter of a mile from where I live.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm just writing
this down because what I'm doing,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

you know, just tapping into the community.

Yeah.

And you would do it one person at a time.

Word of mouth.

And,

because the other thing that's a
problem in, on the entire developed

world is funding's drying up.

Okay.

Okay.

I know about research funding in my field
in the seventies, money fold, like water.

I've been in the industry 50 years now.

Then in the nineties they
started shutting labs down.

Now it's a trend line like this.

As retirees take more
and more of the money.

Other things went down like this,

you know, things like funding
for the space program.

I, I gave a talk at the jet Propulsion
Lab 10 years ago and I got their annual

report and I was not very happy what I
saw happening to the budget, this is 10

years ago, it's going down and this is
happening in all the developed countries

Rupert Isaacson: because
the population is aging to

Dr. Temple Grandin:

happen and we need to tap into the
resources we've got in the communities

and retirees is one of them.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And it seems to me too, I mean,
grow, I, I, growing up as a colonial

children child of colonial Africans
in, in the uk, intergenerational

life was very much just the norm.

And I learned so much from
older people when I was a kid.

A bunch of skills because also older
people were often very physically

active and physically able.

So they would be the ones
showing you how to use a tool or

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

They, they retired car mechanics
carpenters, you know, like right

now I've got back problems.

I can't lift much anymore, but there's
a lot of things you still can do.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
and I would imagine too

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that you use that to lift stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: There has to be an
impact on the brain too if, if we don't

get this intergenerational contact right.

Because something

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that we need to be tapping into
because of funding, like when

you look at funding for science.

Okay.

I had a chance to visit the vehicle
assembly building where they put

together the original moon rocket.

I got a chance to go inside it.

And I remember standing outside
of it and going, oh, this is the

greatest thing my generation did.

Then when I went inside it, I'm
going, am I hallucinating right now?

Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing
in there that I'm seeing scaffolding

inside here for multiple rockets?

Not one rocket, multiple rockets.

I was seeing scaffolding in
there for multiple rockets.

I was not hallucinating, and I
realized, I looked at that they had

an open bank vault for that project
because you look at SpaceX's building,

it's a modified steel building.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You know, he, he, one thing that
SpaceX figured out how to do is, is

how to make that rocket reusable.

Make it land on its tail.

Rupert Isaacson: That saves

Dr. Temple Grandin:

half your cost right there,
because you're not throwing that

rocket booster in the ocean.

Mm-hmm.

The other thing you learn is
commercial available equipment works.

You don't have to have, you know,
regular electronics will work.

You know.

I see.

And that's, but they, when
I went in that building, I'm

going, they had big visions also.

When you went up on the roof of it,
there were big eye beams sticking

outta the corners of the building.

And that's so you could build a
higher one for even the bigger rocket

course.

That never happened.

Most people don't know
that about the I beams.

No.

I went up on that flat roof and
I put my hands right on 'em.

Big, I beam this sticking
outta the corners of the roof.

Rupert Isaacson: I think you
put your finger on something

there when you said electronics.

Again, here am I running a
therapeutic riding thing?

Should I have some retirees coming
in, running a sort of electronics shop

Dr. Temple Grandin:

where we're maybe fixing videos and stuff?

Yes.

That would be great.

And, and the other thing is
fixing computers for people.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And, you know, you, you know, we
throw away so much electronics.

It's just disgusting.

Hmm.

Like, for example, monitor like I
have now like when a monitor starts

to go out and it starts to flicker,
it means the power supply's failing.

And I had a monitor that did that, and
really nice monitor screen still worked.

I looked it up on YouTube.

I found out exactly what
was wrong with that monitor.

It needed new power supply.

Now that's something I
could have done myself.

I kept it for a whole year.

Then finally, I had my friend come
in and help clean my house and

well, it ended up in the dumpster.

I hate to say, but I, I can tell you
right now, let's say that monitor

had existed outta my aunt's ranch.

They were, they were really low on money.

Mm-hmm.

It would've

Rupert Isaacson: fixed.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

If I couldn't get the exact
power supply, I have to just

make sure the output is the same.

I would've built an external power
supply for it, put it in a plastic

box so I wouldn't get shocked.

I know how to solder.

We would've fixed that monitor.

Can

Rupert Isaacson: you go ahead?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I felt, you know, this was probably
about three years ago, and that

monitor went in the garbage.

I, I felt kind of guilty about that.

But I'm just, you know, just so
busy travel and things like that.

But all that was wrong with it was they
put a cheap power supply in it, and you

have to just put in a new power supply.

It would've worked.

No, I, I went online
and went on the YouTube.

I found out exactly
what was wrong with it,

but it would've required
taking a thing apart.

It would've required some soldering,
the stuff I actually know how to do.

Now, if I'd been in a situation where
I wouldn't have a monitor otherwise,

yeah, it would've been fixed.

Rupert Isaacson: The problem solving sort
of sequences that you're describing from

learning these early turn, taking games
through very, very basic tasks, a daisy

chain to learning how to fix some basic
things or at least participate in it to

go into sort of a higher
cognitive process.

This sounds a lot to me, like BDNF,
brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

Can you, can you talk to
us a little bit about that?

The, the neurotrophins within the
brain that seem to rely upon a certain

amount of physical movement to.

Create these problem solving abilities.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, you have to do it.

You know, and I, you know, my skills
in the paper library transferred right

over to looking things up online.

I was very good.

I'd go to the card catalog and I'd find
a bunch of books in, in my subject, and

then I very carefully go through maybe
a six foot section, a shelf looking

at table of contents of the books.

And I'd find them.

People would say, well,
how do you do that?

Well, I can go on online and start
putting keywords in and I can do that.

And you gotta use different keywords.

I tell students, cattle's
got different keywords, cows,

bulls, steers, heifers, cattle,

Rupert Isaacson: pine,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You gotta do a separate search
with each one of those keywords.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your brain.

You've had people study your brain.

What differences did they find Huge.

And what insights did you get from that?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Huge visual thinking circuits.

Huge.

Huge visual thinking circuits,
but smaller circuits for speak.

What I see

much smaller circuit for that.

And that would, would explain
how speech came in slowly.

I was not one of these echoic kids.

I was yaking out an entire movie
script, but doesn't know what it means.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I was definitely not one of those.

Rupert Isaacson: And these
visual parts of the brain, it's

these, it's where are they?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Right here in the back, old, back
third of the brains involved in vision.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Very big part of the brain.

And in looking at these PET scans that
were showing that the visual cortex was

turned on, cerebellum was about black.

I mean, nothing was
going on in cerebellum.

Maybe this explains why activities that
stimulate the cerebellum, like horseback

riding, for example, are so beneficial.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And the OTs have learned from
years ago, do lots of swinging,

lots of balancing activities that
these things have a good effect,

you know, and that's been known for years.

Rupert Isaacson: And is your
cerebellum still underactive?

Like do you have to do things for MyUM?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

My cerebellum is 20% smaller than normal.

Okay.

That's definitely known.

And, and I had PET scans done, but I don't
think they sliced, they were this way.

I don't think they sliced down far enough.

I gotta go dig those PET scans out.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

But I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

don't think they went
down far enough to slide.

They didn't do the sagittal section.

They didn't do that.

And the ones that showed it
were the sagittal, you know,

were like, cut this way.

Rupert Isaacson: So you're talking
about rocking as had or not?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, the ones I had, I think
only went down about this far and

that wouldn't hit the cerebellum.

So I wouldn't know.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you do
things now consciously to work

your cell cerebellum out to do

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I've learned, I,

well, one thing I've learned to
help back pain is I'm making myself

look at the ceiling of the airport
when I walk through the airport.

And I was showing a lady yesterday
in the supermarket and she was

complaining about her back hurting.

I said, when you walk through the
supermarket, make sure you can

see the steel beams in the ceiling
that forces you to stand up.

And you still have to see the floor.

But when I can see the steel beams
and the supermarket's brand new

and it, but it's in Abu, like a
factory building basically, that's

all open steel beams on the ceiling.

If I, if I way I used to walk, I, I
couldn't see the, the, the steel beams.

Rupert Isaacson: How does
that help you, Sarah?

Bottom

Dr. Temple Grandin:

now, and I'm finding, I'm.

One.

I am, I'm not doing all
that much right now,

Rupert Isaacson: but when
you're looking, but things like

Dr. Temple Grandin:

riding, you see when you hear where
the kid go, the mom will say, he

did his first words on a horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well that's cerebellum.

You're stimulating of
vest stimulus system.

You're stimulating the rebell.

Okay.

OTs for years have known that was
good and then you had the old Miller

Method from years ago and they'd
have kind of contraptions that the

kids would climb on and balance.

But even something as simple as nail a
two by four board to the floor and just

have 'em walk the type rope on a board
nailed on the floor simple balancing

things like that can sometimes be helpful.

Rupert Isaacson: So as much balancing
activity as you can possibly do.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Lots of balancing activity, you see.

And that stimulates the cerebellum
and that seems to be good.

And my cerebellum is smaller than normal.

Rupert Isaacson: Now what?

When you are walking through that
supermarket and you're looking at the

beams, is that helping your cerebellum?

Because that is that
changing the balance back?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I can tell you right now,
it's helping my back.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And I have to make myself do it
because I tend to lean forward.

And then I realized that I'm, well,
it's just like walking through

the jet bridge to go on a plane.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And now I, now I'm, now I'm now when I
think about Jet Bridge, I'm seeing how

the lights are configured in the ceiling.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Until I started doing it, I realized
I'd never even looked at the

ceiling of a jet bridge before.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And the same thing with
ceiling at the airport.

I discover a Newark airport's
got a pigeon in it can fly the

entire concourse full speed.

Rupert Isaacson: Do,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

do you I wouldn't noticed that before.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that when
you are looking up now as a 77-year-old

woman and changing that perspective,
changing, you're changing your balance.

Right.

You must still be, well stand up.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

One of the things it does and I've
got, I've got the ladies at the,

at the ticket counter doing it too,
because then you gotta find every

stain ceiling tile in that airport.

It's making a difference.

And they said that when I walk up
to the ticket counter that they can

see that I'm standing up better.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And it has helped my back.

Rupert Isaacson: And I'm surely
that must also stimulate your

vestibular system a bit because
you're changing your normal balance.

Right?

You balance well, the other
thing I'll do balance.

I got

Dr. Temple Grandin:

a big long hotel hallway.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Or a big, long, empty airport corridor.

I go now don't walk like an old lady.

And I will go fast down the terminal.

Now if it's crowded,
obviously I don't do that.

And I'll do that in hotel corridor too.

Big long hotel corridor.

I obviously don't do it on uneven
ground, but wears the, you know, the

smooth carpet, big long hotel corridor.

I'll go, don't walk like an old lady.

I'll make myself walk fast down it.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm

Dr. Temple Grandin:

doing that now.

Rupert Isaacson: Have you
had your amygdala looked at?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yes, I have.

And the right amygdala
is bigger than normal.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

What do you attribute that to?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, that's just the way it was.

And I had horrible problems with anxiety.

And it started puberty when the hormones
hit horrible, horrible anxiety that's now

controlled with antidepressant medication.

Another thing that helps controlling
it is a burst of hard exercise.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And where I talk about my anxiety
issues, I discuss that in my

old book Thinking and Pictures.

Mm.

Which I just did a new
forward for this and,

and a burst of hard exercise.

I do 120 old lady pushups every night.

Only the front half comes up and
then I'll do a hundred strokes

laying on the floor swimming.

And when I first started doing that,
I couldn't get my legs off the ground.

I can now.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And I find that burst of hard
exercise is also very helpful.

Rupert Isaacson: When you're, let's
talk about anti-anxiety medications.

As we now know, we are dealing with a,
a population that is largely medicated

rather than a population that is in which
the minorities in the exceptions of, well,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

one thing is you wanna use a low
dose or I take one antidepressant,

low dose, starter dose, or less.

Okay.

Let's say you do, I'm taking one
of the old tricyclics 'cause I

started before Prozac existed.

And if you're doing Prozac,
it's starter dose or less.

The big mistake that gets made is it
follow the label, it's too high, and

then you'll get agitation and insomnia.

It's starter dose or less.

And if you start to feel like you
drank 50 cups of coffee, you cut the

dose, don't raise it, cut the dose.

That's all explained in here.

Even though it's old, it's still accurate.

Rupert Isaacson: So when you cut the dose

Dr. Temple Grandin:

it just works.

I, I don't, I don't, you
go down to like a quarter

Rupert Isaacson: pill or something.

Like what, how would you,
how would you cut that dose?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

You'd have, you know, one way you
get liquid version or you have

to cut the pills, but usually
the starter dose will work.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

The starter dose size, because
I've had parents go, oh, he

was great with a low dose.

We doubled it and it was awful.

And what they should have done is
gone back to the low dose and that

most people, the starter dose works.

Rupert Isaacson: Now you and I both
know that many parents or people who are

taking anti-anxiety medications are under
a lot of pressure often to up the dose.

Not,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

no.

There's a point where you don't.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I have been on the same dose
for, since my early thirties.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Don't, you don't wanna get
into an escalating dose.

No, I resisted that.

The other important thing is the
exercise also very, very important.

Rupert Isaacson: Did you find yourself
under pressure to up your dose?

And if so, how did you resist it?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I knew it would be trouble.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Why did you know it would be trouble?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I, what gave you that

Rupert Isaacson: insight?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, you're gonna get poisoned
for one thing possibly.

It, it, and the other thing I
found is the nerves went in cycles.

And before I took the medication,
I, my nerves were going, I have to

use English speed limits for cars.

But this was the analogy.

I was going 200 miles an hour, between 200
miles an hour and a hundred miles an hour.

When I went on the medication, I was
going 55 miles an hour to a hundred.

It still cycled.

And I knew that the nerves went in cycles.

So I toughed out the cycle and
then that dose still worked and I

knew it'd be in trouble if I kept
taking higher and higher doses.

The other thing is you wanna, you
wanna avoid the Valium, all the

benzo drugs, you wanna avoid those.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about why?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, you can't get off of them and,
and they have to keep upping the dose

Rupert Isaacson: because
you build tolerance

Dr. Temple Grandin:

antidepressants.

Now you can stay on the same dose.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And also you gotta do the exercise.

Rupert Isaacson: If you
don't do the exercise,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that doesn't, you are gonna be

Rupert Isaacson: in trouble.

Okay.

You have to do that.

Talk to us about why, why, why is the
exercise so important for, for the mental,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

well, I've actually looked up
some research and a burst of,

in a burst of heart exercise.

Just walking.

Okay.

I walk a lot in the
airport that doesn't do it.

I've got to do the burst of hard
exercise where I do those 120

pushups in like five minutes.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And then I swim.

The strokes without stomp whole
thing takes just over five minutes.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But that burst of hard ex,
there's now some research on this.

Of course, I looked up
a lot of this stuff,

but the burst of hard exercise where
you'd put the exercise machine on a hard

setting, but you have to work up to that.

I didn't do a hundred strokes swimming
on the floor in the beginning.

And then I used to do sit,
sit-ups, but then I was, that

started hurting my sciatic nerves.

So I had to stop that.

But I do a hundred
sit-ups without stopping.

Rupert Isaacson: Now when you,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

but it took a while to work up to that.

You don't do that

Rupert Isaacson: overnight.

You were, you were do.

You were doing some research into these
hard, these short bursts of hard exercise.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I did some research on that.

Rupert Isaacson: What
did the research say?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Said it worked.

Rupert Isaacson: Did they say why?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

No.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Is it endorphins?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, it it, the burst of hard exercise.

I just, from my, worked better
than quite a lot of walking.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So again, let's say we are
equine therapy practitioner, but

Dr. Temple Grandin:

on the other hand, you
gotta work up to it slowly.

Okay.

I was doing all these sit up.

I didn't start off doing a hundred sit up.

It took me three months
to work up to that.

Rupert Isaacson: But to
get a bit out of breath.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

You have to get a bit out of breath.

Rupert Isaacson: And how many times
a day would one need to do this?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Just once.

Rupert Isaacson: Really,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I just do it once.

Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

What if you're a, what if
you're a child or an adolescent?

Do you not need more?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Maybe you do.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Mother used to say, go outside
and run the energy out of you.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean it's all the common
sense stuff, isn't it?

But it's, it's, it's the stuff
one just sees less and less of.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I think way too many drugs
are given out to little kids.

Way too many drugs.

I was an adult when I started taking this.

I take one medication, you know,
low dose of an antidepressant.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
ideally we should wait till

someone's an adult before?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, I look the medications in
general, well I, the way I look

at it is the younger the kid,
the more cautious you need to be.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

That would be kind of how I'd look at it.

But I'm horrified when I find out
there's a 6-year-old on seven drugs, a

lot of 'em heavy duty antipsychotics.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And then when you talk to the
parents, no thought went into it.

Every time there was a meltdown,
throw another prescription at it.

Yeah.

And that's bad.

And the kid now is obese.

Some of those drugs are
appetite stimulants.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

actually they, things like
Abilify and some of that stuff,

Zyprexa is real bad on that.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's say a kid is
on those seven medications and it's

having a clear ill effect on that body.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, lemme go try to get rid
of some of the medications.

Rupert Isaacson: How does one

Dr. Temple Grandin:

scale back?

The first thing I wanna do is
to try to figure out what, what,

when they first prescribed them,
what were they trying to do?

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

See,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

the other mistake that's made is
you need to try one thing at a time.

You don't start a diet and
a drug at the same time.

You don't start a new school and
a drug at the same time, otherwise

you don't know what worked.

And then you, if you're gonna try
medication, try one medication at a time.

See what it does.

Take notes on it.

Then some of the kids need to be
gotten off of some of this stuff

because there are some kids, young
teenagers, and they're horribly fat.

And the antipsychotic drugs
are appetite stimulants.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

That's

Dr. Temple Grandin:

why they're getting so fat.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

And then of course they're
at risk from diabetes.

Well

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that's the problem.

Yeah.

No, and that's super bad.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

I have some kids that come out to me
from an international school that are

medicated, and I realized that what they
really needed to do above all was range.

These are boys.

So I stopped meeting them at our,
at our barn, and I started saying

to the person, bringing them, meet
me in the forest at this car park.

I'll be there with the horses
at a certain time, and then

let's just go into the forest.

And the horses will be available.

So generally what, and I realized
what happened, and these kids are

between seven and 10.

And if you let them, they would range over
about 10 kilometers over about five miles.

Yeah.

Of mixed terrain.

And you could help them getting
over, you'd need one person to

look after the horse and they would
be climbing over logs of course.

Discovering all sorts of things
in nature, but really working out

because our terrain's very hilly.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh yeah.

There's a lot of, there's a
lot, you know, heavy work OTs

for years have talked about.

Right.

But we wouldn't have to tell 'em to do it.

Rupert Isaacson: They would just do it.

Yeah.

And.

Oftentimes the, the people bringing them
would say, oh, don't let them, you know,

they're supposed to be like, no, no, no.

Let them.

And when we started really letting
them, what was amazing was, as

you say, we started to see these
immense behavioral changes.

And then when they were really tired at
the end, we might find ourselves three,

three kilometers, you know, a mile
and a half or more away from the barn.

Then the horses came into play
because then they wanted to ride home.

And then of course all the vestibular
stuff would happen on the horse,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

but we realized

Rupert Isaacson: we got way more bang
for the buck than if we just worked.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But that's, you know, getting 'em
out, you know, because today aren't

getting out and doing enough stuff.

And you know, way too many drugs
are given out, way too many.

And then on the A DHD drugs, when you try
those, you'll know right away whether they

work or not would be obvious, but a drug
should have an obvious, beneficial effect.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And.

My health was deteriorating.

So I went through my twenties
worse and worse and worse.

Colitis attacks.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Absolutely horrible Colitis attacks.

Rupert Isaacson: Stress induced.

Do you think?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh, when I went on the medication,
the colitis was almost cured.

Okay.

You know, almost.

Rupert Isaacson: And do you think
the colitis was a, a buildup

of cortisol in your system?

Well,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I, all, all it was, was they,
my fear system was ramped up.

Okay.

I got bigger amygdala.

Yeah.

My fear system was just turned
on due to a physiological defect.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

That

Dr. Temple Grandin:

ramped up the fear response when
there was nothing to be afraid of.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And way I like to look at
what the antidepressant did.

It was like adjusting the idle screw
on an old fashioned carburetor.

You'll know what that is.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And so the engine is not racing.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I know that's an old fashioned analogy,
but I think it's a really good one.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It often seems that whether one is on the
spectrum or not, the, the definition of

modern life is that we're going through
life with one foot on our internal

accelerator and one foot on our brake.

And

Dr. Temple Grandin:

yeah, that would be a
good way of putting it.

And what the Met drug did, it
was like turning the idle screw.

So instead of cycling way up
here, I'm now cycling down here.

Rupert Isaacson: But you keep
the dose very, very, very small.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

The dose is starter dose,
it's an old drugs dys start

Rupert Isaacson: dose or less old

Dr. Temple Grandin:

drug.

And I take a starter dose.

I am, I've been on it for,
since my early thirties.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Same dose.

Rupert Isaacson: And you haven't
built up a resistance to it or

tolerance that makes it have to go up?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, because I don't, I resist the
urge to take a higher dose and that you

can do this with the antidepressants.

Rupert Isaacson: How
do you resist the urge?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I knew as a scientist I'd be in trouble.

Mm.

That I couldn't just be upping
and upping and upping the

dose that that would be bad.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Took some willpower

Rupert Isaacson: and the, the But you
weren't seeing a return of your symptoms

or a worsening of your symptoms?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh, no.

No.

Right.

No.

So what would've been the
temptation to up the dose then?

Well, okay.

Went on the medication.

The intensity of the engine
racing was always less.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Always.

And what I recommend, I really
recommend, it's okay if it's

the old edition of this book.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Thinking of pictures for those
who are listening pictures.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

There's a chapter and they're called
a believer in biochemistry, and

I'd recommend them reading that.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Even if it's an old edition, the, the,
everything I'm telling you is still true.

And Prozac is in here because
that was invented in 1988.

Rupert Isaacson: When you I know people

Dr. Temple Grandin:

that have gone on a low dose of
Prozac where it's worked really well.

Rupert Isaacson: When you say you
had to resist temptation not to up

the dose, what was the temptation?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well just get more and more nervous,

Rupert Isaacson: but, and,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

but I knew in the past that
my anxiety would go in cycles.

Rupert Isaacson: I see.

So when you were cycling up And I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

knew that from, I knew from the past.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And that then the cycles would pass.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So even when, when you were at the lower
level of cycling it, the temptation

came when you were cycling up?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

That's right.

Rupert Isaacson: And that was when you
had to talk to yourself a little bit?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

And then I, to make
sure I did the exercise.

Rupert Isaacson: So the exercise,
when you're on the upcycle,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I do the exercise every day.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And I'll tell you right
now, do I enjoy it?

No, I do not enjoy it.

Okay.

I figure it's something I have to do.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Every night.

If I'm in a hotel room, I put a
towel down on the floor and I do it.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And I reason I'd rather do
something like that because then

there's no excuse for not doing it.

Rupert Isaacson: It also
just keeps, I can always

Dr. Temple Grandin:

put a towel down on the floor in a hotel.

Rupert Isaacson: It's it's
interesting, you know, my father

who's 91 this year just religiously
does his exercise routine.

And well, he's 91, you know, and off
to Zimbabwe this year by himself.

Even though, you know, he's not, he's
not as strong as he was, obviously.

Well,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

obviously, but he will
say, tell me I'm 77.

Mm-hmm.

I'll be 78 this summer.

And they say, well, you're a lot more
mobile than a lot of other people I

know that are in the early seventies.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, because I make myself exercise
and then this new thing, you know,

connoisseur of the ceilings I call it.

And then when I'm outside, it's
connoisseur of the tops of the lampposts.

Or, well, if I'm walking
in this neighborhood here,

there's all two story homes.

I'll look at the bottom edge of the roof,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And it's something I have
to make myself do it.

And it's helped my back.

And I told a lady yesterday, I said,
you need to really check out the tru and

steel trusses in our new supermarket.

That's in a factory.

It's in a factory building.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

So I've been taking some notes.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Black, they painted all the ceiling
dresses black, so they, you don't

see them as much, but, but you
have to look up to see that.

And what you do is you look up
and you can see the ceiling, but

you still have to see the floor.

But you see, I realize that I'd hunch
over and that I wasn't ever seeing

the ceiling and have to another way,
way doing a restaurant that had some

really interesting stuff on the ceiling.

And she says, oh, I never noticed all that
wood stuff they had up on the ceiling.

That's really interesting.

She'd never seen it before.

Rupert Isaacson: It makes me feel
another thing that might be a good

idea then as a equine practitioner
might be to put some interesting stuff

hanging from the ceiling in the arena
and in the other rooms that we use to

encourage different vestibular positions.

Right.

Well, yeah,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

maybe it's doing something vestibular,
but I found it did a lot for my back.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And just one day I realized all
the ceilings that I'd walked

under, I'd never seen them.

Then when I started to look up, I go,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, there
might be a Michelangelo up there.

You just dunno.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, no, there's like pigeons
up there and stuff like that.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

but oh boy.

You can sure find a, a,
a, a broken ceiling tile.

You'll find it.

Rupert Isaacson: So while you've been
talking, I've been taking some notes

and it's really interesting, a structure
has evolved, which let you know the

majority of people listening to this
particular podcast are going to be

therapeutic writing practitioners.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: And so let me take you
through, I've got six points on this.

Let me just read them back to you.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: And then you tell
me if there's anything we should add.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Okay.

So

Rupert Isaacson: number
one, get retirees into help.

So you have Yes.

Cross generational.

Yeah, that's right.

Being, yeah.

You know, and then get those
retirees to teach those skills.

Often practical skills.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: Two, get
kids greeting and selling.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

The other thing is also want the retirees
working with the three-year-olds.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

A little nonverbal, three
year olds early intervention.

I want retirees working
on early intervention.

Rupert Isaacson: Specifically.

Why that population?

Why?

Why?

'cause they get

Dr. Temple Grandin:

no services otherwise.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

Okay.

They're on a

Dr. Temple Grandin:

two year wait list.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Okay.

That's the reason why.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So get your retirees in partly to do shop
and practical skills for your older kids.

Yeah.

But and partly to do
stuff with the nonverbals.

'cause the nonverbals are on Wait, little

Dr. Temple Grandin:

kids

Rupert Isaacson: got it.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

That little kids where they're on wait
lists, they're not getting any therapy.

We'll call it horse play

Rupert Isaacson: in Instagram.

Parent basically.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay then which

Dr. Temple Grandin:

play library?

Play

Rupert Isaacson: two.

Get kids greeting and selling and Yes.

Set that up at your barn.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yes'.

Be done in a controlled environment
so the kids can be done that.

And that's be done very easily.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

Three.

Have a garden, have a shop,
have a repair shop, and.

Get the kids involved in that, not
just the horses and the horse care.

Yes.

What have we got here?

Read my terrible writing here.

Oh, yes.

For a job, a paper round or a dog walk
again, because that's all paper rounds.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

We don't have many.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: but
one could, one could re

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Recreate those.

Well, they see, might call it paper route.

Paper route substitutes.

Correct.

Either dog walking,
church, volunteer jobs.

They, because they, they've, the 11 year
olds got to learn how to do a task on a

schedule where the boss is not family.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

The boss is not, is not family.

So let's say you are the
therapeutic riding owner, okay.

You could set up, you could, you could go
to five or six neighbors and say, look,

we need the kids to learn how to do this.

We are going to have them
deliver these things.

To you?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

No, you could do that.

Yeah, you

Rupert Isaacson: could.

Or walk your dog or
something or something, so

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

But they need to be learning.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I've gotta substitute, I mean, all our
paper routes now, the ones that are left

are all done by grownups in cars now.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

So we, but we could, we could
set that up and recreate that.

Yeah.

Which leads into the next one which is
hard exercise because of course also if

you are having to pound the pavement a
bit and if you are having to dog hard

Dr. Temple Grandin:

exercise and what the OTs call heavy work.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Which

Dr. Temple Grandin:

would be using the
wheelbarrow to clean stalls.

Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And then when you put the horse poop in
there, the wheel a little bit heavier,

the thing pushing and you gotta take
it somewhere, you gotta dump it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And that's heavy work.

OTs call that heavy work.

Rupert Isaacson: And perhaps
you've got to navigate those wooden

planks that you don't fall into
squishy bits on outside and doing

Dr. Temple Grandin:

some things that are heavy work.

Okay.

Heavy work pay bales.

Some of the old, older individuals.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And again, our retirees
could be helping with this.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

They could be helping assist it,

Rupert Isaacson: which, which would, and

Dr. Temple Grandin:

they don't have to do the lifting
and the kids do the lifting,

Rupert Isaacson: but they can assist

Dr. Temple Grandin:

in, I, right now in my way of
my back is I cannot lift a bail

Rupert Isaacson: hay.

Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

That's something I cannot do.

Rupert Isaacson: And then,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

and I can't, I can't pick
up an entire box of books.

I've got a thing that wanted me
bring a box of books, but I can't

carry it in from the parking lot.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I can bring in like three or four books,
but pick up a box of books that's, no.

I had to give up this heavy briefcase.

I was carrying around.

Well now I just leave it home and put
my wallet out with a leather string

around my shoulder and we don't bring
the briefcase in from the parking garage.

Okay.

It's hurting my back.

I had to stop doing that and now
I, in the airport, I put it on

the other bag and it rolls now.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I should imagine though that even if it

Dr. Temple Grandin:

doesn't have even coming off the
plane, I try to have it roll.

I can't always do that,
but sometimes, right.

Rupert Isaacson: Just carry on.

I should imagine though, for, for
the younger kids that are needing

to learn how to lift and push
a wheelbarrow and navigate well

the younger kids, you do this

Dr. Temple Grandin:

stuff,

Rupert Isaacson: that's not gonna
be a particularly heavy wheelbarrow.

Right.

So no, it gonna feel heavy to the
kid, but it's not gonna be that heavy.

So,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

no.

And, and, but you see, this is what the
occupational therapists call heavy work.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Okay.

And then six if there are meds involved
keep them on a starter dose or less.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well the, first of all, the starter
dose thing is for the antidepressants.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Other drugs, you might have to have
more than the starter dose, but for

antidepressants it's starter dose
or less that for that particular

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Drugs,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Prozac Zoloft.

Okay.

I'm using the old brand names.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Sertraline.

Ine, that's, that isn't a very good drug.

I, we used that one.

Rupert Isaacson: And, but for

Dr. Temple Grandin:

antidepressants,

Rupert Isaacson: antidepressants, what?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And other drugs you may have to use
the, the dose on the label, like

from some of the stimulants, but
antidepressants, it start a dose or less.

But they, the thing I'm seeing it,
you know, and I see this with a lot of

nonverbal kids they're like seven drugs.

And when you talk to the
parents, no thought went into it.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And then you have some of these kids
that got epilepsy, they're gonna

have to take medication for that.

Have to.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

But again, one would expect that
to be exceptional, not the norm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, yeah, you wanna, basically,
my principle is the younger

the child, the more cautious
you wanna be about medication.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

All right.

But

Dr. Temple Grandin:

on the other hand, I can't be
against totally against medication

because one little medication.

It changed my life.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And I, this is so, and that,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

and this is where as I'd recommend
reading this, I'd rather I, not that

I'm not just saying I wanna sell
books, but I think it's important

that they read thinking of pictures,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

It, it just seems that there is
so little moderation in the drugs.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, there's things where
there's no thought went into it.

Like, you talk to the parents,
I said, why'd you do this drug?

Or they might give out three
drugs or two drugs at a time.

You try one thing at a
time and see what it does.

Rupert Isaacson: Why do
you think pediatricians are

giving out so many drugs?

Because they must know the risks.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

The, the parents call 'em and they
just wish that they'd go away.

And yeah, it's kind of shocking sometimes.

The lack of thought that goes into it.

Mm-hmm.

He's on seven drugs.

Alright.

Why this one?

Why that one?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, on the other hand, on the other
hand you take your antipsychotics in some

cases where there is very, very severe
sensory oversensitivity, a very tiny

dose of risperidol risperidol, very tiny
dose, way, way under star dose works.

Now let's talk about sensory
stuff, like, things that make

noise like a vacuum cleaner.

Mm-hmm.

If the child turns on the thing that makes
noise, they can often get to tolerate it,

Rupert Isaacson: Because they have
the agency and the choice where

Dr. Temple Grandin:

they control it.

A thing that makes noise beeping
a car horn, anything that makes

noise when you turn it on horse
clippers, they turn it on,

Rupert Isaacson: the leaf blower.

Right.

Sleeve floor.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

That's another example.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I've seen that go from
feared thing to favorite toy.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Okay.

Gonna add that to the list.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Turning on,

Dr. Temple Grandin:

let them turn on the noisy things.

Rupert Isaacson: The noisy thing.

The other

Dr. Temple Grandin:

thing is don't wear
headphones all the time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

It'll make sound sensitivity worse.

Mm-hmm.

They can have 'em with them for control.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But try not to wear them.

You can have 'em with you,
but try not to wear 'em.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So we've added seven.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: For sensory stuff.

Let them have control and agency
over the noisy, scary stuff.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Where they can turn that noise on and off.

Now obviously they can't turn
a horse's Winnie on and off.

Rupert Isaacson: No.

But interestingly we went through
that with Rowan, with my son.

Okay.

And you know, where we went
through that is was in Mongolia.

So when, of course we were working
with the horses at home, the horses

didn't Winnie much because there.

Herd was very close together.

They didn't Yeah.

They don't to call each other.

When we went to Mongolia, the horses wined
all the time because they were calling

to each other across big distances, and
it really freaked him out to begin with.

And I had to it took me a while
to piece this together because

he wa he was semi verbal.

And then when I realized that was what
was going on, I, I kept saying this

thing of horses, just horses saying
hello, it's just horses saying hello.

After a while, it became fine.

But there was about a 10 day really
awkward and difficult period which I had

not seen coming because our horses at
home really didn't win any much, you know?

So what's your, but he did, he did
absolutely learn to tolerate it.

Yeah.

And then it became not a thing again.

Is it just about small doses?

Doing things, letting things
happen in small doses.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, and they, they but the
one thing that is in a lot of

situations, if they can control it.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: See, another

Dr. Temple Grandin:

thing to do is make an
audio recording of money.

You can make

Rupert Isaacson: an audio recording.

Right.

And it has to be a high

Dr. Temple Grandin:

quality audio recording with
all the nasty, high frequencies.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Makes sense.

Okay.

And then the final thing we've got here
is number eight is balancing stuff.

So in your playground, in your,
just anything you can get that's

balancing for the vestibular system.

For the cerebellum.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Put that in there.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

And you, and of course you're balancing,
when you're on a horse, you're

Rupert Isaacson: balancing

Dr. Temple Grandin:

mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

You have rhythm and balancing
stimulates the cerebellum

Rupert Isaacson: because one of
the things I'm often urging equine

practitioners to do is think beyond
the horse because the kid may, may

or may not wanna ride today, even if
they wanted to ride on Tuesday and.

Even if they love the horse every time
they come, what tools are you giving

to the family to take home that they
can do in their living room or in a

playground or some other situation?

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, things like getting, okay, you may
not have a vacuum cleaner at the stable,

but then that, but then when they, some
other noisy stuff, you let 'em turn

on and all the leaf blower, let's say.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Then

Dr. Temple Grandin:

when they go back home, they can try
that with the vacuum cleaner or the hair.

Absolutely.

Two other noisy things.

Rupert Isaacson: One of the things
we encourage people to do, and we,

we had great success with this,
was hang swings from your ceiling.

Let the kids swing in the room at home.

'cause the weather's often bad.

You may not be outside.

Yeah.

Now

Dr. Temple Grandin:

a lot of, a lot of families
actually have, have done that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

That's quite common.

Rupert Isaacson: Worked massively for us.

The

Dr. Temple Grandin:

thing that that, that I thought
was so interesting when I read Bill

Gates's book was the the selling
stuff and the party hostess.

Rupert Isaacson: That

Dr. Temple Grandin:

we both did the same things.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And I guess one could so easily
do that with like holidays.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And then I had, I went in children's
playgroup, organized playgroup in the

summer where they might have, you know,
eight or nine kids and we'd, they have

an organized softball game or another
time we went on a nature walk, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

I I'm just thinking like
today's Easter Monday, right?

Easter Sunday, actually.

Yeah.

You know, one could so easily
do themed parties at one's barn.

A lot of people do your Easter thing,
your Halloween thing, your 4th of

July thing, your Christmas thing.

This is the kids can't
be the greeters and Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well you see, and I'm realizing
how important those parties were

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Where

Dr. Temple Grandin:

you had to greet people.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

You

Dr. Temple Grandin:

had, we, we were taught
Say please and thank you.

Like if it was in the store,
you were checking out.

Mother would say, you
forgot to say thank you.

She'd say, when we were getting
ready to leave, you forgot to

say, and then I'd go, thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

But you see that's fifties
upbringing and, and I think we need

to be doing more of that kind of

Rupert Isaacson: stuff.

I, I couldn't agree more.

And it's not

Dr. Temple Grandin:

difficult stuff to do.

Rupert Isaacson: No, it's not.

But it has to be done without shame,
so it doesn't become a fear thing.

I remember when Rowan was verbal,
becoming really verbal, and of course,

you know, you go through that fa
phase where you're like, oh my gosh,

there's, you know, I'll take anything
even if it's grouchy and negative.

And then I realized at a certain point
oh gosh, he needs to learn courtesy.

How do I do that?

And I came up with this thing
where I said, Tim, hey do you

wanna learn a word of power?

It's actually three words.

If you say this pretty much.

No one will be able to say
no to you over most things.

And he said, whoa, whoa, what's that?

And I said, it's this,
it's, could you possibly?

And I said, look, I'll prove it to you.

And I turned to his teacher.

We were homeschooling, but
we were doing it in a team.

So his main teacher, Jenny, and I said
Jenny stand on your head and do a fart

because we always use toilet humor, right?

And Jenny went, no, I don't wanna do that.

And I said, okay, Jenny, please
stand on your head and do a fart.

She said, no, Rupert, I, I've
told you I don't wanna do that.

I said, I looked at Ron.

I said, now watch this.

I said, Jenny, could you possibly stand
on your head and do a fart, please?

And she went, well, if
you put it like that.

And of course, she went up
against the wall and made a noise.

We did things like this for
about two weeks and about.

Bang on two weeks.

He came downstairs one morning
and said, dad, could you

possibly get me a glass of water?

And it stayed.

And he kind of learned this courtly
way of going through the world.

He

Dr. Temple Grandin:

learn it and you see in these
things we were taught, we were

taught please, and thank you.

Mm-hmm.

And and, and, and then the party
hostess thing, that's something that

in the fifties and see Bill Gates is
eight years younger than me, so that

would've been very early sixties.

Mm.

These things were done.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And, and then there's that scene where I
go up and I ask the editor for his card,

well, all that party hostess stuff I had
to do, I wasn't afraid to go up and ask

for the card and ask for it really nicely.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Like

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I was taught to greet
people at the parties.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And if we could, and

Dr. Temple Grandin:

realizing just how important that was

Rupert Isaacson: and if we
could set up a sort of play, Mr.

And Mrs.

Grouch role play.

Maybe that's again, our
retirees were helping us out.

Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

After the, all the nice people and
Right once in while Get a garage.

Well, yeah.

You'd go up to house and they weren't
interested and they'd shut the door.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

Sort of a safe way to

Dr. Temple Grandin:

and develop.

And he walked around the neighborhood
and then she'd take him to other

neighborhoods and she'd stop out in
the street and he'd go up to the house.

She's right there.

She can see the door.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he has to go up there.

Bill Gates had to go up there
and ask the, you know, the people

wanted to buy the mixed nuts or not.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

And we can do so much of this stuff.

It up therapeutic riding barn because, and

Dr. Temple Grandin:

it's simple stuff to do.

We, we can set

Rupert Isaacson: these situations up.

Yeah, we can.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Oh, and I think that would
be really, really good.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I think that'd be really, really good.

Well, we've now been al we're
coming up on two hours now.

Rupert Isaacson: We are.

Is there anything you'd like to add or
do you feel we've covered it this time?

No, I think we've

Dr. Temple Grandin:

talked about a lot of good things.

And, and these are things that helped me.

Mm.

And, and I, you know, you've got things
that maybe some of your therapeutic

writing places can start doing some
of these things, but I think it's been

really important to tap into the retirees

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

For the little kids.

And then teaching older kids skills.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I think a lot of retirees
would really enjoy doing this.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

I so agree.

And it's so interesting.

You know, we, we've, we've talked here
about the good effects of the horse,

obviously the vestibular system.

What happens in the brain, what
happens in the body, great.

But most of what we've talked about
is actually not with the horse.

That there needs to be this whole
other universe around what's going on.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well you see the other thing,
when I took care of the horses,

there's a responsibility.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I had to make sure I fed each
horse the correct amount of feed.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And this horse got one scoop, this
one got one and a half scoops.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And.

And I had to do that.

Right.

I had to put them in and out of
the barn and clean the stalls.

Rupert Isaacson: At what age
were you when you were given

that level of responsibility?

15.

15.

15?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I

Dr. Temple Grandin:

was 15.

Rupert Isaacson: I wouldn't be doing
that with my little ones at this

point, but what I do do is I was

Dr. Temple Grandin:

15 right.

When I was doing that.

Yeah.

Now I watched some kids come up
to our riding center and they

were maybe third and fourth grade
and just pick up some horse poop.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

Totally

Dr. Temple Grandin:

supervised and they were having a time.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I, I have totally

Dr. Temple Grandin:

told them what the
level of responsibility.

I know I was 15,

Rupert Isaacson: but there still
is, even for the little ones, a

small level of responsibility.

Right.

One has to start young, but just
within the range of what's reasonable.

Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Well, and then I made me a little nervous
because they, the kids going Right.

Too close to the horse's feet.

I said, let's take the horse
out of the pen when we do

Rupert Isaacson: this.

Yes.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

I, I suggested that to them.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Let's just take the horse out.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

And these were not stalls.

They were like run pens.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

Which is what we have.

Yeah.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Yeah.

And I said, let's just remove
the horse from the pen.

Absolutely.

Because these were little kids,
they were like third grade

Rupert Isaacson: and then
they'll get run over.

Absolutely.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

8-year-old kids.

Rupert Isaacson: Cool.

Well, listen Temple as ever, it's
been, you know, an honor and also just

massively useful to be mentored by you.

Dr. Temple Grandin:

Alright, that's fine.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

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