Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

I've got Melissa Connor here with me from
Holland in Michigan where she runs renew.

And I was actually just there.

It, and I was struck at Renew because
there was a higher than usual, higher

than I'm used to seeing level of
equine care going on which I would

like to see as the general standard.

And so I thought I would ask Melissa
to come on and tell us how that

evolved because as a lot of, you know,
I, I go around doing a lot of gigs

in a lot of therapeutic places and
through nobody's fault, you know, the.

Frequently the state of horses that
are being donated, well, maybe that

is somebody's fault when they're being
donated, is you know, they often come in

with stiffnesses injuries, arthritis, you
know, bangs and wear and tear, but then

there often isn't much emphasis on rehab.

And of course, as we all know, if a horse
is going to be giving wellbeing to a

human, it has to have wellbeing to give.

And simply being quiet,
of course, isn't enough.

So really, I was quite
struck by this at at Renew.

So I thought I'd ask Melissa to come
on and talk to us about it because

we would have something to learn.

So Melissa, thank you
for coming on the show.

Tell us a little bit about
who you are and what you do.

Melissa Connor: Sure.

Thank you Rupert.

It was so wonderful to have you at renew
just a few weeks ago, and it was an,

an honor to introduce you to our horses
and our people and, and learn, learn

the ticking equine integration method.

And thank you for your high praise.

It's it's, it's, it is rare to be
able to have someone kind of come and

immerse in our center for a few days
long enough to, to notice those things.

And so we, we highly value your
opinion and your, and your praise.

We have 22 horses that live on
our farm in Holland, Michigan.

We are on a 20 acre property.

And we have been at this
location since 2020.

We purchased the property in 2018 and.

Made a plan to build it out.

So there's a, a few things that
we've prioritized and personally

I've tried to prioritize.

So we are a therapeutic riding
center serving children and

adults with disabilities.

About half of them with autism.

And we are an accredited
center with PATH International.

And our, our instructors are certified.

I have have been a therapeutic writing
instructor for 20 plus years and am a

master instructor with PATH as well.

One thing I tried, I've always
believed in having had horses

since I was a little girl, was to
give them the best care possible.

And as I was sharing with you,
that has evolved really as, as.

I am continuing to learn, even though
I'm, you know, 50 plus years into life

as a horse owner and 20 years into
this industry in particular, there's,

there's so much to know and learn and
continue to learn and explore with

horses that I don't feel like there's
a formula that just plain works.

But a lot of it is listening to the
horses, inviting them into the work that

we do, and then meeting their needs.

So I would say, especially over the
last decade or so I have really learned

from you and a lot of your colleagues.

Some of the ones that stand out really
are mark Schiller, Josh Nichol, Dr.

Steven Peters mark Rashid and,
and others about prioritizing the.

Horses need friends, horses need
freedom, and horses need forage.

And focusing on those three F's for
their wellbeing and keeping them happy.

And then even just in the last six months
or so, not even just looking at horses

wellbeing as as a scale, but even saying
what does it mean for them to thrive?

Not just exist.

Mm-hmm.

Not just live, but how can they be just
like we want for our humans, we want

our horses to be thriving in this work.

So one thing I've really come to
believe in deeply is if a horse

is not supposed to be a partner
in this work that we find out.

What their vocation should be and
help make that possible for them.

So they don't stay, we don't say,
this is the horse that showed up, so

this is the horse we're gonna use.

Even though the horse hates it and
the horse isn't thriving or loving

their work, then we're gonna move
them on to, to something else.

So I, I think, I love that all.

We have a variety of horses that
have different personalities.

They're different ages,
they're different breeds.

But we have really emphasized
watching their body language,

watching their physical fitness level.

We're so excited to dive into the Teke
method, just to, to really help them

with their conditioning, but we have had
conditioning plans that haven't been as

intense as what we just learned with you.

Definitely every horse gets ridden
by a, a competent rider once or

twice a week in addition to the
therapy work that they're doing.

So we've tried to prioritize these things.

Some, some lunging, some groundwork.

And then we give them, we
give them those three F's.

We make sure that their friend groups
are set, and we have, I have a staff

that does that, and we've built out
pasture groups and as we were building

our property, we put shelters out.

We put, we're in Michigan, so
we put automatic waterers out.

We wanted to be able to leave
them outside as much as possible,

which might seem ironic because
we just built a new barn, but.

The barns are really for the
humans, not really for the horses.

We need a place to bring them into,
you know, to get them ready to work

with the equipment, to, to groom them
and brush them and care for them.

So that's really what the barn is for.

But of course, it's also just a for
them when they need to, to wait.

So that's kind of the
overview I think of where.

Our thinking in terms of our horse
care has evolved and then trying to,

we're constantly trying to educate
the volunteers that come to our

center, our participants as well.

And then the, the staff just carries it
on and we try to prioritize continuing

ed for our, our team because it's all,
which is why we were able to bring

you in just to, to learn from you.

But we're open to, we're open to
changing things if it doesn't work, not

just going to get in doing something
because it's easiest for the humans.

Try to take in the mindset of what's
best for the horse and we'll do

that thing In terms of their care,

Rupert Isaacson: was it always,
so, I mean, you, you grew up

in horse country, Virginia.

I used to work in Virginia, so Yeah, I, I
know it and it's, you know, a horse mecca.

I.

Many places I've been to in Virginia,
actually, the horses are kept really

well because they do spend a lot of
time outside, even if they're hunters

or competition horses or whatever.

But I have noticed of course, over the
years that in many therapeutic barn horses

is what one would call over stalled.

And sometimes that can be simply
because of the overwhelming

traffic that's coming through.

As most therapy barn owners know
business is almost too good, you know?

There are just so many people
with the need and it's very

hard to turn people away.

And this can end up in horses, you know,
standing in perhaps more than they should.

And the idea of turning horses
out in groups, I, I've often seen

resistance to that because saying,
well, what if, you know, they kick

each other, or what if, or what if?

And although, you know,
I usually say, well, I.

They might, but in the same way
that kids in the playground might

push each other over, but at the
same time, usually they don't.

And the mental health is important
and this is what they need.

You know, it's a, it's
a balance we have to do.

You must have come, you know,
'cause you came up through the sort

of ranks of the, of the sort of
orthodox therapeutic writing thing.

There must have been an evolution
with, for, so can you, can you talk

to us about where you began and then
sort of gradually how it changed?

Because I think that would help a
lot of listeners who might be in

situations where they're thinking,
yeah, you know, I, I could see that

maybe we could make a change or should
make a change, but I'm not entirely

sure how we might ch you know, begin
to change a, an ingrained system.

So talk us through your evolution
and I think that will be useful.

Melissa Connor: Oh, sure.

I started in, well, grew up in Virginia.

I grew up actually as a child
in Hunter Jumpers and four H.

And we boarded our horses for a while,
and then my family had a, a small farm of

our own where we did a lot of the chores.

And so turnout was always something that
I grew up with horses kind of out during

the day and in their stalls overnight.

That was, that was, that's what I
remember from my earliest childhood.

That was what you did, right?

You feed them their green
breakfast in the stall, turn 'em

out, bring 'em in for dinner.

Grain install.

And I, I think that that worked for sure.

The horses got a good deal of
turnout and that really happened.

Even I began as a volunteer at a
center in Williamsburg, Virginia, and

that was really the practice there.

But I, I did come in, when I started
there in 2005 as a volunteer, I

noticed that there were a lot of
well-meaning people who didn't have

a lot of horse experience, who were
drawn to this therapeutic riding world.

And maybe some of the decisions
that they were making were well,

everybody was trying to do the best.

Everybody does their best until they
know better and then they do better.

Mm-hmm.

So, the as we didn't have, as,
that was a brand new center where

I wasn't at the time they didn't,
they were building pastures but

didn't have a lot of pastures.

They were trying to onboard horses,
but only had the couple that had

been donated, you know, that weren't,
weren't necessarily ideal for the job.

And, and as I got in there and started
helping to mold and shape some of

those, I've always come at this where
the world of equine assisted services,

this world shouldn't get the leftovers
from the real equestrian world.

And I noticed there was an attitude,
from those who were into competitive

riding, whether it was dressage or western
pleasure or, or hunter jumper, where they

thought, oh, this is therapeutic riding.

We'll give them our, you know,
our, our lame horse who can't

show anymore or we'll do this.

And personally that always
offended me in the sense of,

Rupert Isaacson: in so many ways.

Yeah, in

Melissa Connor: so many ways.

But I thought, why That makes no
sense that the people that, that are

approaching the partnering with horses.

For their own wellbeing.

What I think the equestrian wheel
doesn't know is they were getting some

of the benefits from being with horses.

The same benefits that we're trying to
extend to people with autism and people

with cerebral palsy and people with

good point with

Melissa Connor: brain injury.

So it's, it's, they are not more
important than the competitive.

They are just us.

So, I do think I was able, I, I was
able to be a part of that center and

I became the operations manager and
kind of oversaw over the eight years

that I was there in Virginia, the
onboarding of horses and, and we were

able to recruit a team that thought
similarly to that, to that where let's

do the best we can for this community
and that means increase our turnout.

Excellent vet care, farrier care.

Let's not get somebody's leftover
hay that they're given away because

it got moldy and they don't want it.

Let's invest in quality hay,
quality feed even chiropractic

work if that makes a difference.

And that's what a horse needs.

So these things do cost money.

They cost, they take time,
they take intentionality.

So as I was learning the field in those
first really eight years or so at the

center in Virginia, really prioritizing
without horses, we, we can't do our work.

So we, they have to be a priority.

They have to be invested in.

And so then I moved to Michigan in 2013.

Got to know, renew, which was a small
center at the time, and very small budget

as well, working out of a boarding barn.

And it was very similar.

I remember the, my first trip to
the tech shop, local tech shop here

in the western side of Michigan.

I went with a friend and we were looking
at some of their consigned saddles, and I

noticed several of them had broken trees.

And they had a saddle fitter on staff and
I think I said something to them like, I'm

pretty sure the tree on this one's broken.

You might wanna consider something.

She went, oh, well, we'll pass it
on to a therapeutic riding center.

And I just remember being so upset I
had to like, leave the tack shop because

I said, oh, please don't do that.

And then was just so emotional I couldn't
you know, I struggled to be able to

say why, and I thought we have to start
changing some attitudes and mm-hmm.

Like, this is, it's still very much
there, there's still this thought

of, of if it's a therapeutic writing
center, if it's a nonprofit well

you must be hurting for money.

So they should be grateful to get
our saddle with a broken tree.

Or they should be grateful to get our
three-legged horse that, you know,

isn't sounding, is that actually

Rupert Isaacson: gonna
cost a fortune in Becca?

Melissa Connor: So I think just
kind of flipping the whole thing

over and saying, no, we need.

As I know you, we learned
from you when you came.

Like, our horses need to be conditioned.

We owe it to them to be in top
physical shape, top mental shape.

Our equipment needs to be that and so
much more because of what we're doing

with our equipment and with our horses.

And so the care of the horses
really has always, for me been a

priority, but it's been a, a long,
slow journey and that I'm still on

of learning and sharing kind of this

Rupert Isaacson: stuff.

Yeah.

One, I don't know if you, if you're
at this point, I, I, I reached a point

in Texas, 'cause you know, people
wanted to donate horses all the time

and we took some, but and, but we
took ones that they didn't have to be.

Always sound because as you know, a lot
of our work can be done on the ground too.

So if a horse couldn't be ridden or had,
you know, kissing spine or something,

but had this wonderful attitude and
this wonderful nature, we just rehab

them as horses that you could work in
hand with, with an adult population

perhaps that wasn't going to ride.

But they could still be in their top
amazing shape within those parameters

or something like that, you know?

Or we could have horses that, you know,
we knew could only carry a certain weight.

Okay.

We, they were only get, but they
could still be in their top shape.

But mostly actually I would buy, buy
or breed my own horses because as you

say these horses are no less athletes
than horses in the competition world.

And of course, all my horses did do
everything anyway, and still do they

crossed the line between those worlds.

Okay.

But the.

The idea that somebody might have,
I always thought was so strange

that it's basically I, competition
rider have messed this horse up.

You know, he's now injured.

You know, they say, oh, we
don't know how it happened.

And like, well, yeah, you do.

There was a time when he wasn't lame
and there was a time when he was

and do the best of what you were
doing and you probably can, you

know, come out with an answer of
that's probably where it happens.

He was probably overstressed
or overstressed.

Now, it's not always like that.

Of course some horses injure themselves
in the field and whatever, but you

know, and I know that the vast majority
of competition horses get broken.

Yes.

And that doesn't mean they're not rehab.

But the idea that, and of course that's
what the whole tech in program is, but.

The idea that someone would say, oh,
well, now that I have broken this

horse, here's what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna make you feel like you're, I'm
doing you a favor and I'm going to sort

of lie to myself that I'm doing you a
favor by giving you a horse that is going

to require considerable vet care if he's
going to, and, and rehab, skilled rehab.

If he's going to go on and do anything,
rather than just retire in the field

at home, which I could do, but I don't
really wanna feed that horse, even

though I love this horse so much.

That's what they always say.

And I, you know, and he's given so
much and he deserves and blah, blah.

I said, well, if he deserves so
much, why don't you keep him?

Right?

You know?

Rupert Isaacson: And I remember the
last person who tried to give me a

horse, like, this is actually quite,
quite a, a, a well known event.

And I, I said to her, you know, then
if the horse is, if you love this

horse, like you say you love your this
horse, keep him, you've got fields.

You know?

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And then it's like, well,
you know, I don't really wanna feed him.

It's like, you know,
you want me to feed him?

So what, so, and you want me to take
on the Vet Cat and you want, while I'm

also a nonprofit, while I'm also needing
to prioritize spending on serving the

populations we serve, which by the way,
could be one of your relatives, Mr.

Or miss horse owner that's trying to palm
this, you know, broken horse off on me,

right?

Rupert Isaacson: So therefore, if
I take this horse, you have to help

maintain him because you'd have to
do it anyway if they were at home.

So what's the difference?

Just this way they're
going to have more care.

And I had, have actually had
some people go, you, you know

what, actually, fair enough.

And of course, plenty of others
who say thanks, but no thanks.

Have you experimented with that at all?

When people want to donate
because I, I think this is

something a lot of therapeutic
program directors can relate to.

Melissa Connor: Absolutely.

We, I.

It's always a fine line though, walking
with, dealing with horse owners.

Rupert Isaacson: So I hadn't
noticed yet, myself included.

Probably

Melissa Connor: it.

So, we own about half of our herd
and the other half are what we call

here in the states, a free lease.

Okay.

I know our accountant hates that
term because a lease in the states,

it implies money is exchanged
when money is not exchanged.

Mm-hmm.

And a free lease, it's
a, we cover the cost of.

Of daily care.

And in order to have the horse in the
program, but the, we cap put a cap

on the vet, the vet care, that would
be considered normal or standard,

what we would do, and then if the
owner wants above and beyond that

would be what they would pay for.

So we have written agreements we do
a trial period, we do a 60 day trial.

We can extend it before we accept a horse.

If we're accepting a horse for
donation, usually it's a circumstance

where the owner can't, they're
paying board somewhere, right?

And they usually don't
have another option,

right?

Melissa Connor: Not always the case, but
usually they don't have another option.

Now, what has happened time and time
again is we have a free lease agreement

with a horse where the horse is in
our program for a few years, and then.

Normal course of aging, they
develop a condition or they, or a

lameness that we can't overcome.

Laminitis, heart murmur, something
where we stay in relationship with the

owner and then we say, are you like our
agreement was that you would take the

horse back, you know, at this point.

And then they say, oh,
it's been five years.

My life has changed.

I can't take the horse back.

Can you retire them, rehome them, and
then it, it, we, they assume that it's

easy for us to function as a retirement
or even a rescue, which we aren't.

So it's a, it's that fine line.

So I've tried to make it a priority
to, to know our community well,

just the horse people in our area.

Mm-hmm.

So we have been able to rehome
some horses just locally too, to

local farms or people who are.

Stakeholders with us, whether they're
volunteers or donors or they have

those open fields and they're willing
to, to take, take somebody on.

But it is interesting how the person that
says, I was laughing when you said, oh,

I love them so much and I want them back.

That I just had this exact conversation
with a, a person who said that five years

ago when we got the horse, I love them.

I want them back.

And I called her about a month ago and
said, we're starting to make a plan

for retiring your horse, and we will.

And she said, oh, I'm, I can't take him.

You know, and, and she
said, I can't take him.

You have my pre permission to euthanize.

Well, we said, well, we're not, they.

I mean, that's not what we
are talking about right now.

Yeah.

Melissa Connor: So this particular
horse is dealing with Laminitis

and a, and a heart murmur that is
escalating, but he's not at the end.

Yeah.

He's just, we were just
calling to kind of start the.

Conversation that it's
moving in this direction.

So it, it does get tricky.

It really does.

And that, that's where having the
ground programs and the equine assisted

learning programs and the things where
the horse can still serve in that role.

Yeah.

Melissa Connor: It's, we can just at our,
because we are on 20 acres and we right

now can accommodate about 24 horses.

So we serve a lot of people every week.

So I have try to vary the workload
as we assign the work, and so we

just can only have so many horses
in, in that unmounted category.

So, absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: No, absolutely.

And I think, I think
everyone can relate to this.

You know, I, I have a funny story.

Sometimes it goes the other way.

I remember being donated a, a very nice
touch, warm blood who the person couldn't.

Sustain anymore.

And he was a fabulous horse in every way.

And so of course we kept his training
advancing while he was serving,

you know, all of the autistic kids.

So he ended up with a nice massage
and nice changes and the ex owner

came and saw it and wanted him back.

And and we hadn't done the
paperwork as well as we should

have, and we had to let him go back.

And he was a horse that we were
really relying upon at that point.

Oh, that

Rupert Isaacson: said, in retrospect I can
see that the mental health of that person

would have been very negatively impacted.

I think it had already been
negatively impacted at the time

where she let him go by other things.

And we sort of went in a bit of a
huddle, you know, at Horse point and

went, well, it's not really fair, but.

Okay.

Because clearly it's going to have a very
negative impact if we don't let him go.

But how are we gonna replace him?

Right?

So I then went and bought a very
nice Spanish horse instead who

had a lot of the same qualities.

It's, it's something I think, which
really, if listeners are coming into

the early stages of their career with
this, you really, really, really do need

to make sure your paperwork is pretty
cast iron and people like Melissa, I

think you'd be up for mentoring people,
you know, in this kind of thing.

Because yeah, one can get

Melissa Connor: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And

Melissa Connor: I, as, as you
know, Rupert, I have skin in the

game in that, two of my horses
are free leased to my own program.

So I am a, even though I'm the
executive director, I'm a horse

owner, and so I also wear that hat.

Yeah.

I've signed the same agreements and
and I do, I love that you said that,

you know, you improve the horse.

I love that mentality.

I would hope that our horse owners and
the horses unless there's, you know.

Age aging and wear and tear that
maybe can't be rehabbed at a point.

But the idea is that we watch
their body scores all the time.

We monitor their workloads constantly.

We ma try to make sure the horses
in that happy and thriving.

So the horse owners generally
stay happy with us if they, you

know, when they come and visit.

And we make a point.

And it does take time and intentionality.

That's what a lot of people in
this world don't have, but to

maintain those relationships.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And also to do that work.

So that was actually intriguing to me
because as you know, when people are

learning the Tke program, for example,
one of the draws about it is that it

helps to end the time conflict between
how on earth am I going to condition

these horses When I'm overwhelmed
with a number of clients I've got,

and I'm sure staffed Dan, Dan, Dan.

Mm-hmm.

And of course with Taki we're saying,
okay, you do it all at the same time.

The lunging session, the in hand
session, the long raining session is

while you are serving your client.

And therefore these problems go away.

And then we also have the crazy
time thing, so the horses get to go

nuts and express themselves as well.

Which, but that can also be a client
session, you know, and there's

lots we can learn in that fine.

But of course not.

That took even us and we're, you know,
seasoned horse people, it took us a

while to come up with that formula.

And we only came up with that
formula because we had found

ourselves in that time crunch
and sort of had a little panic.

And then them, the penny dropped,
but Hold on, hold on, hold on.

A lot of our clients can actually.

Easily do this work and it
would be really empowering.

Why don't we, and of course it took off.

When I came to your barn a few weeks
ago and you pulled, there were three

geldings that you pulled out and they
all displayed these like giant top lines.

And this is my bug always
in therapeutic riding.

It's like, where's the top line?

And one of the reasons I'm so anal about
it obviously is because in horse boy

method, we ride with a child in front.

So we are having to think about
that small amount of extra weight.

Usually these are small
children, it's minimal.

But nonetheless, you know, we, we,
we really need to think about this.

And because we have to put
horses into collection for

the oxytocin effect to happen.

We have to do a lot of training,
which involves a lot of top line.

Okay, fine.

One of the things which I often notice in
the therapeutic world is lack of top line.

And it, I won't say it doesn't bother
me because that's where you sit.

And it, particularly if the
horse is older and they usually

are to neglect, the top line is,

I don't wanna say negligent, but
it's hard to find another word

because that's where the client sits.

And the client is not going to
sit well, they often cannot sit.

Well, that's the whole point, is
that we're giving them a horse

which can accommodate their needs,
but it means we have to be extra

vigilant about the horse's needs.

So I'm usually going like a top line.

You pull out these three horses, I'm like.

Saying, you know, damn, in the southern
way, where, where you, you put a

y in the middle dam, it was like,
wow, I'm not used to seeing that.

And I'm like, okay, what's she doing?

So for listeners, these, these
three ings came out and they

were three distinct breeds.

One was a apart Farian, one
was an Irish Old Irish draft.

Gorgeous.

Yeah.

And the other was an
Anglo Norman, I think.

Melissa Connor: A Spanish Norman.

Spanish Norman.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And they just came out glowing with
attitude and fun and spice and top line.

And it was.

I was like, okay, what are you doing?

And this is before I've touched these
horses, by the way, listeners, I cannot

claim any, we were there to teach em,
but I was like, okay, I dunno why I need

to go to teach these people because,
you know, clearly I'm doing fine.

So, so talk us through what
went into the building of those

top lines as therapy horses.

I think that would be something
really useful for listeners.

Melissa Connor: Great question.

So I, I have always thought, and
even from early days in this, in this

work that the horses need for their
mental and physical wellbeing to be

worked correctly under saddle in a
discipline that they were familiar with.

So in, in the cases of those three
like Will, he's the Irish draft,

he was an inventor who developed
a roar, couldn't compete anymore.

His, his owner graciously thought of us,
reached out, was afraid he was too big.

You know, we love him.

He's a goofball, he's powerful.

He's a goofball.

He really shines in our veterans program.

Our veterans are really drawn to him,
you know, big, big, powerful horse.

Mm-hmm.

But he gets at, I would say two, one
or two conditioning rides a week by my

daughter is actually his exercise rider,
but just, she knows what she's doing.

She knows the classical dressage.

She knows how to get
him into self carriage.

And so that keeps him strong.

That keeps his back strong.

Scout is our 12-year-old, f
Friesian cross crossed with a paint.

So he's he's stunning people.

Yeah, he's gorgeous.

Yeah.

He's, he that's almost

Rupert Isaacson: everyone
wants, is like, I want that.

Melissa Connor: I know.

He's flashy.

He's very flashy.

And he same thing.

We have one of our staff members who is
committed to working with him weekly.

So, and then the same with Mick.

Mick is the Spanish.

Norman just came in in December,
but had a dressage background.

He's in his early twenties.

He looks the same as Scout or
Will who are in their early teens.

But he had a dressage background
and the family was moving on.

They were actually moving
south and he was donated to us.

We happily accepted him because he came in
just not only mentally fit, but physically

fit, but really we have developed,
conditioning program with riding.

We do, we have a trainer.

We have a local trainer who comes over
three Fridays a month and, and gives

lessons to our staff or our volunteers
who are, are our ride conditioning

riders to help everybody work on.

With their horse.

I love having outside eyes on her horse.

She's an accomplished trainer.

It's Erica Peterson is her name, and she,
I think she likes coming to our barn too,

because we're not a competition barn.

That's what she's used to training.

She travels around and goes to
competition barns and she just enjoys

coming to us because our goal is how
can we help our horses be better?

How can we help them stay physically fit?

How can we improve their flexibility,
their balance, their strength?

So, and we just do this in the context of,
of, you know, a classical dressage lesson.

I say classical dressage, but
you know, the, they could be

riding an all-purpose saddle or a
western saddle or whatever, right?

It's the, it's those same.

Components.

So that we've been doing that for a couple
of years, that has really helped to keep

our, our crew of instructors who are
our staff and our volunteers who help us

condition the horses help keep them sharp.

It, it keeps their.

Riding skills sharp, but of course
everybody comes in with a baseline.

There.

So this is, we ex the people who we have
approved to work with our horses, we make

sure that they know what they're doing.

We don't, we have, believe
me, we get asked all the

time, can I ride your horses?

Can I ride your horses?

No, we don't just let anybody
ride our horses for conditioning.

They have to be approved.

So, we have a, we have a method of
doing that and then we just make that

a priority so the horses get that work.

That's why I'm so excited to add, to keen
into what we're already doing, to just

add the benefit, the groundwork, right?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, right, because
you know, when, when one is relying upon

riding, there are some issues there.

One is the rider has to be competent to
work a horse over the back, obviously.

So.

Most riders dunno how to do that.

The riders that do know how to do that
may or may not be in your program.

Right.

And then of course, it, it, it, it's
whether or not the horse can be ridden.

And it also, if, if we're relying upon
riding, then even if you have those

riders in your program, as you, as
you've pointed out, only a very small

number of your personnel can do that.

Whereas with the lunging and
the long reigning, obviously we

can now get everybody doing it.

Um Right.

Regardless of their
equestrian skill, but Right.

If you're in the equine assisted
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a career in the equine assisted
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If you're working without horses,
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Finally, we have taquine
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If you know anything about our
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So, this means we need to train
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And it also ends your time conflict,
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Takine equine integration aimed
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absolutely gives you this.

That brings me actually to
another question, which is

I know how busy you are.

Finding the time to get the horses ridden
over the back in this way is not easy.

How do you manage that time?

Melissa Connor: That's,
that's another great question.

And we really blocked
out one morning a week.

So we don't do programming
on Friday mornings.

That's where it, that's
where it landed for us.

That's our conditioning time.

And so we just have it
blocked out on our schedule.

We don't pro, we don't provide services.

Okay.

Now, every now and then, there's a
special thing where we have to shift.

That's why I say it's about three Fridays
a month that, that, that actually happens.

And then those, we assign person to horse.

So, you know, I'm assigned a horse,
various people are assigned a horse.

If we can't get to that horse
that week, like travel meetings.

It's our responsibility to assign,
to get, make sure somebody else

works the horse so that they get it.

We have a, we have a checklist, you
know, we have a Google document.

We all go in and write notes.

You know, if somebody didn't get a
canner lead or if somebody was stiff in

one direction, we make notes on that.

And all of us who are conditioners
can see what we're doing with with our

horses and with each other's horses and
make suggestions and help each other.

But like you said, it is, there's a
baseline of riding ability and that

that is something that we have struggled
with, but we also want to develop and,

Rupert Isaacson: well,
that, that's the question.

Again, most places don't
have access to those riders.

How did you okay.

Your daughter's part of the program
granted, but nonetheless, I mean,

you're lucky that she enjoys riding.

But.

Even with that with that many horses,
it's, it's very difficult to find

that number of people anywhere who
have the ability, you know, if one's

lucky, if one finds one or two,
you know, let alone five or six.

So how do you, how do you find those good
riders and bring them into your program?

Melissa Connor: Such a good question.

I wish I, I wish I knew the answer other
than, here's, I'll give you my best

answer, which is, I think because we
and as the leader of the organization,

I've tried to set it as a priority.

I think we set the bar where we
want the bar to be and then wait

for people to come meet us there.

Mm-hmm.

So it's not a perfect system.

Even, even now when I tell you
we have, we have, 22 horses.

Well, I'll take out the minis, you
know, 'cause we don't ride the minis,

but, so say we have 18 horses that
need to get conditioned every week.

I think we have 12
approved riders currently.

That's a lot.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I think
a lot of places would dream of

having that many good riders.

Yeah.

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

We have we have nine instructors, which
is also a high number of instructors.

Not saying every instructor is in
a different spot in their career.

Mm.

But

Melissa Connor: every instructor has
come in with an equestrian background.

So they've, we always encourage them.

If people come to me and say, I
wanna be an instructor, I usually

say, go take writing lessons.

Go like, what is your background?

Because you, you need five plus years of
writing instruction with a good trainer.

Usually at another barn riding
different horses, not, not

starting on our therapy horses.

Yeah.

And get your base level of skills
so that you know what that feel is.

You understand what balance is.

They understand how the horse moves they
understand the weight shifts that happen,

the bending that needs to happen, that
crossing over, bearing weight on that

inside hind, all the things that, that you
bring, you brought to us in groundwork.

The hope is that our, our conditioning
riders have that, and then we,

they're, they start as volunteers.

I think every person that we've hired
on our staff maybe with one exception

because she came from outta state, but had
started with us as a volunteer and we get

to know them and we see their work ethic.

We see their abilities and then their,
and then their, over time have been hired.

We have we have a staff of 13 right now.

Not everybody is a rider
and that's completely fine.

But they participate in the program or
are responsible for different parts of

the program in, in some way or another.

And then that's circle gets bigger with
that handful of volunteers that we find.

So I, I have I'll give you an
example of a good friend of mine.

I met her soon after I, I
moved here to this area.

But she was a trainer.

She was a trainer.

She's now doing something else, working in
schools, actually in a autism classroom.

But she exercises our horses.

In fact, she exercises Mick,
that Spanish Norman, but.

She was a person hanging out with
an, she's an incredible rider,

understands all of those things,
but doesn't currently own a horse

had kind of moved out of that world.

And so the gift of her coming
back into our program and she can

be a conditioning rider for us.

Like there's, you just gotta find
those people and it's not easy, but

I think when we set the bar and build
those relationships, it, it will come.

Rupert Isaacson: It, there's also,
sometimes it can be a matter of geography.

I've been traveling to that Grand
Rapids, Michigan area for a couple

of years now, and I've been, first I
was surprised and I'm very, in a very

pleasant way by the kind of level of
education of a lot of riders in that area.

It was very interesting to me.

You know, we both know, for example
Leanna tank who, which also just

done a podcast with who came and
obviously was part of this training.

She's in Grand Rapids and.

She in her barn.

There's a very high
level of knowledge there.

And I was, you know, you expect
these things in places like Northern

Virginia or certain parts of the
Carolinas or around the Denver area,

you know, places that are known hubs.

Do you think that, is Western
Michigan just a particularly good

hub, or do you have a particularly
good way of just attracting these

people and, and finding them?

Because I've gotta admit, when I was
in Texas, it was, it was tough to find.

Melissa Connor: Hmm.

I, I do think there's, there, there
probably is a, something with a geography.

I.

And these hubs, it, it, it, this,
this part where I am, and of course

I grew up riding Hunter jumpers
as an adult, have ridden dressage.

There are a lot of dressage trainers in
our area, so now they're not all of the

same caliber because again, anybody can
call themselves a dressage trainer, start

a website, throw it out there, right?

Yes.

Melissa Connor: So I, I have
noticed just as I've gotten to know

people, that there's people that
I resonate with more than others.

And so I think trying to again, it
goes, kind of goes back to building

those relationships, but Right.

Letting them know what we're looking for.

Even the, the trainers in our
area, but maybe because we're

in a, a higher dressage area in
this greater Grand Rapids area.

There is a lot, there are a
lot of people, there's a lot of

trail riders in our area too.

And, and I have met, and even in the
process of trying to mentor people

in therapeutic riding sometimes I'm
surprised people who say they're lifelong

riders or I've been riding for 40
years and they don't know how to post

the trot, you know, or they don't know
how, because they hop on their horse

in their backyard and it'll go off on
a 10 mile trail ride through the woods

and come back and they didn't fall off.

So that was, that was,
that's the extent of it.

So there's, there's still a range,
but I, I do think there is an emphasis

on classical dressage in our area.

And I do think that that helps that
there, that trickle down effect

of just understanding the movement
of the horse, understanding the

muscular development and how they, I.

Power themselves.

And all of that feeds into what we're
talking about, having that nice top

line, having happy horses and horses
that are able to then do this work.

But I try to prioritize knowing
people because those are the

pipelines for the horse kinds of
horses we want in our program.

And so people need to trust you.

People need to know about renew.

People need to know who we are.

People need to know about our high
standard of care and our conditioning.

And so these are
conversations we try to have.

I'm always surprised when they
seem surprised by those things.

Yeah.

I just think they're not educated
about our equine assisted world.

So true.

Rupert Isaacson: Which is getting
better, but we all, I think, can

admit that, we are bringing it up
from a place where perhaps it wasn't

as good as it could have been.

Right?

But it gets better year by year.

The, and I can picture a lot of
listeners now scribbling down, recruit

my writers from Grand Rapids era.

You know, Melissa's there two years now.

I, I just don't seem to be able to
find the riders I used to be able

to feel to Texas to work here.

Melissa Connor: No, I'll tell, I'll
tell you something else about this area.

People love this part of the
country and they don't leave.

Maybe they'll leave for winter, you
know, the, the snowbirds go south.

Yeah.

But there is when I moved
here from Virginia and, and

there's not a lot of turnover.

People tend, once they live
here, tend to stay here.

And it's a, it's a, it's a great place.

Just that, you know, we have the
lake, we have the lake shore.

Mm-hmm.

There's land I, I might have shared
with you, I love the area where I live

because I'm 10 minutes from absolutely
everything that I need in my life.

A 10 minute drive.

So I don't really have to,
you know, it's not a stressful

place to live in that sense.

And there's plenty of open
farmland still around for people

who look looking for horse farms.

So

Rupert Isaacson: it's very true.

It's very true in the real estate
prices are attractive folks.

Mm-hmm.

As is the landscape.

But you do have to contend with February.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay, so down to the
horse welfare aspect too.

One of the other things that really struck
me when I came to you was the horses

live out, as you say, you, you had built
this very beautiful barn which smelled

great, of new pine wood and everything.

And had no horses in it because the horses
were all outside and that was great.

You also grew up though with
horses being stalled and stable.

So at what point did you
begin to make that shift?

And, and because it's, it's
quite a big one to make.

I think a lot of us grew up
with horses being stalled.

It was a hard habit to break, you
know, I, I broke it myself at a certain

point, but I do remember a certain
amount of internal resistance again.

But it's quite nice to have the horse
in the, but then I just saw how happy my

horses were when they were just in that
perma herd and I was like, okay, fine.

They're gonna be out.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But so talk
us through how that evolved.

'Cause you don't see it in
a lot of therapeutic places.

Melissa Connor: Really, I feel like
I discovered it in a, in a sense by

accident because like I said, I moved
here from Virginia, used to having horses

stalled at night, or at least shelter.

I had, I had my horses at home and they
were in overnight and out during the

day, which is nice to do in Virginia.

We would reverse the turnout in the
hot, hot, hot, humid summer, you know,

where they're out overnight and in
under fans during the day in Michigan.

It's, it, we didn't reverse the
turnout really just kind of had 'em.

So I moved here with that mentality.

I think it happened over time
and sort of out of necessity as.

Renew was originally located, literally
across the street from where I live.

There's a boarding barn across the street.

We were working, we were
had horses boarded there.

I had horses at home.

I would walk them across the
street to go to work and, and

be part of the, the program.

And we had a limited number of stalls.

And I, we had an agreement with
after I'd been here a year or

two, we made an agreement with the
property owners to lease three acres.

And we really kind of had our own pasture.

And we had a small covered arena
where we could do lessons and we threw

up a couple of stalls over there.

Our program was growing
so rapidly we had more.

Horses and more people to
serve than we had room for.

Hmm.

So, so I, we started kind of rotating
pastures or leaving them out as much

as possible really with the intent
of we could serve more people.

Now this was, I.

12 years ago or so, and the horses were
doing great, being out all the time.

So I, I, we were just noticing,
you know, our older guys,

it's better for them to move.

They're happier.

And even the younger ones coming in, they
were happier in their pasture groups.

So we had a couple different
options over there.

We had a smaller paddock.

We added on, we had one big field and
we added on another field, but we had

some gates, you know, we could close
and kind of, so we just shifted to

where they were out almost all the time.

So if they were in a stall, there was
a reason for them to be in a stall.

Either it was they were waiting
for a lesson, they were waiting for

the vet, they were waiting for the
farrier, you know, or even had a

horse that we got who had equine.

Narcolepsy.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh.

Is one of those.

Yes.

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

And our vet said, keep him outside.

He's not, he was not comfortable.

Basically he would not sleep.

We were bringing him in every night and
he was sleep deprived 'cause he wasn't

comfortable sleeping in his stall.

Ah.

He was a big, he was a big guy and our
stalls weren't huge and so we had to

get really creative with him and and,
but really turned him out was better.

We didn't have the issues that we had.

I once had him, he fell asleep while
being groomed with a student and,

you know, he forgot to lock his legs.

I mean, he went down.

So it was he was definitely sleep
deprived, which, which I've since

learned is way more common than we think.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Connor: But again, keeping
them out where they figure out their

herd dynamic, let them sort through it.

They get their rest time, their
work time, kind of trust the horses.

They know how to do
this better than we do.

And so that was, is really
over time it evolved.

So even as we were building this barn,
we wanted, we built a 24 stall barn.

We put paddocks, as you saw
Rupert when you were there.

We put large paddocks outside of
every stall with a Dutch door.

So if the horse does need to be
in, they have the, they can opt in

or out with their small paddock.

And, and really it's they come
in every morning for breakfast.

That's our, that's our routine now.

So they're in, they're in as close to
24 hours a day as possible, but they

come in for breakfast, we feed them,
and that gives us a chance to do.

Body checks, notice any behavior changes.

If there's any treatments that
need to be done they can be

done by that morning crew.

And then they go back out.

So they're in the barn an hour,
maybe two, depending on what,

what's happening that day.

If they're working, then they
might stay in for their lesson.

Those not go back out.

And then we just rotate through the day.

So they come in, they often
don't go to their stall.

Sometimes they go to their stall to
wait for a lesson, but it might be

15 minutes in a stall, and then it's
time to move 'em to the grooming area.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Connor: The cross tie area where
they're, they get ready for their work.

So it's, it, it really, I think we have
a good rhythm now, but people sometimes

are surprised to say in Michigan,
you leave them out 24 hours a day.

I, I remember hearing you speak in
Grand Rapids last summer and to the

dressage barn Leanna's barn there,
and, and you said, well go out and ride

the hills, you know, even in the snow.

And I remember the, the ladies
going, what in the snow?

You want us to go outside
and trot up and down hills?

And you were like, yes, go.

So it's funny, we have, in some
senses, we have covered arena.

We have a, we have a heated arena.

But we can, which I

Rupert Isaacson: did, I did, I did
appreciate when it started to snow there.

Melissa Connor: But I think then we
forget, but we can still go outside.

Yeah.

And there is value.

It just gives us options.

So we are, we are blessed that
we've been able to build a facility.

All from donated money to, to
meet our needs, our horses'

needs, our rider's needs.

And, but, but we can still go outside.

I, I try to have that mentality too, of
we don't have to stay in this temperature

controlled indoor arena even in February.

There are times it can be okay
to go outside for half an hour.

Yeah,

exactly.

Melissa Connor: The horses are fine.

They're better for it.

It's the humans that need to bundle.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And, and just to be fair to, you
know, to you as well to listeners,

if you're thinking, well, if
it's that cold and windy Yeah.

But they, what they do have in
these, in these paddocks is in these

pastures is very nice shelters to
get outta the wind, out of the snow,

out of the rain, out of the wet.

So they are sheltered.

But yes, in large groups, and we
have the same setup here in Germany

the horses can wander from pasture
into the sort of open area where

there's free feeding hay and then.

From there into large, long sheds
with a nice sandy bottom if they want

to get out of the weather whether
it's hot or whether it's cold.

And it's so interesting to me what
they choose and when they choose

and when they really don't choose.

You're like, you sure
you don't want to go in?

Melissa Connor: Yep, yep.

I know it is.

And then there's sometimes we, we try
to build, you know, large shelters, but

then, you know, if there's three in a
pasture, you know, and two are in and

one's out, you wonder like, is did they
tell him he couldn't come in there?

Is there a little dynamic going on?

But, so we do blanket our
horses or put rain sheets on,

but not everybody all the time.

It really, it varies by horse.

We watch them, we want them to.

Have a coat develop their natural coat.

But if they get overly sweaty and
work and we might need to clip them,

then we'll do a blanket, or it's
just, it's very individualized.

We make a chart for who needs to be
covered when and we, and we watch.

So it's not always a, oh, the human
is cold, it's below 50 degrees.

Every horse gets, gets
their coat on today.

It's, it's much more individualized.

Rupert Isaacson: It's, but the proof's
in the pudding, Melissa, because

the horses look fabulous and, and I
saw them at the end of the winter.

Which is always, that's
the telltale time, right?

If, if you're gonna see horses looking
not good, that's when you're gonna see it.

My own included, you know.

So, hats off to you.

Oh,

Melissa Connor: thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Now this talk about,
as you said, you had to build the

whole thing with donated money.

And renew obviously started.

From very small beginnings in
a boarding barn, and it's now

quite an impressive facility.

Funding is the big challenge that
faces everybody, especially in the

USA, where there is no government
assistance for any of this stuff.

We're on our own.

We know it.

Even Path International is
just a standalone nonprofit.

You know, here in Germany, for example,
the Curatorium for therapeutic riding,

it's actually part of government,
it's part of the Ministry of Health.

It's part, you know, there is a certain
amount of funding, there's a certain

amount of funding for those programs
through government, et cetera, et cetera.

Now,

the big question I'm always being
asked is how do you do the funding?

And of course there's so
many ways to approach this.

We had our ways of
approaching it at new trails.

How do you do it?

Because you, you really are having to
fundraise quite significant sums there.

And you, you did a really big build.

You, you are continuing, I know
you're adding a, a, a non mounted

learning center, which very
exciting 'cause of movement method.

I'll be wanting to get in there and yeah.

You know.

So tell me how you do your fundraising,
because I think people do need

guidance on this, mentorship on this.

Melissa Connor: Absolutely.

I wish there was a secret formula that I
knew and that I could just say, but you

know, it, it's similar to the pipeline
that we need to keep open for bringing

in quality horses and quality equipment.

It's the same for just funding
which comes down to relationships,

reputation, and doing excellent work
that is changing people's lives.

So.

It's my role to keep broadcasting those
things in our community and even the

greater community through people I
know people I meet organizations that

I can partner with tell the stories,
tell the stories of transformation

that happen at Renew on the horses
with our staff, with our volunteers.

We have, we maintain a
waiting list for services.

We serve over a hundred people,
about 120 people weekly at Renew.

Currently, we are constantly
talking about how to increase that

number, how can we serve more,
how can we bring more people here?

So those are things I talk about with
poten donors and potential donors.

We are unique.

There's not another center in our town.

There are some in our region an hours
drive north or an hours drive west.

But in our area, no one else is
offering what we are offering.

I say that there's no competition
in terms of a therapeutic

riding center necessarily, but
there's a lot of nonprofits.

There's a whole lot of nonprofits,
and especially serving the

disability and the autism community.

Another great thing about our area,
it it is a very philanthropic area.

There are people here who have means, who
are willing to support programs like ours.

So, but it takes years.

It takes years to.

Build that reputation.

One of our core values is excellence.

So going back to we do
excellence in our horse care.

We do excellence in our staffing model.

We do excellence in our service model, and
so we have to demonstrate that excellence.

And so I'd like to think we do
excellence in our fundraising,

in our marketing as well.

And it, we're never done,
we're never done fundraising.

I actually had a phone call yesterday
with a a center director in Ohio who

shared with me that she, she made
her payroll here at the end of the

month and has $20 left to spare.

And just was like, how do you do it?

How do we not constantly live on the edge?

And that's such a hard
question because yes, I.

Here in the States, when we depend
on the donated dollar to offer these

services, it takes strategic planning.

It takes it takes leadership
from a board of directors or from

people willing to have that vision.

And then people saying, this
needs to be, be in this community.

I've, I've said over and over again, renew
needs to be in this community because we

are serving 120 people a week and we have
a waiting list and we are not gonna stop.

And also my vision is beyond me.

I, I want renew to be
here 50 years from now.

I want it to have the same
standard of excellence that it has

today, or be even better, right?

We wanna build for our future, for
our children, our grandchildren,

our great-grandchildren.

So I want there to be systems in place
for onboarding horses, for onboarding

staff, for onboarding volunteers, for
serving those families who need this

help that is truly transformative
and is making a difference in our

community in our community and beyond.

So, you know, those stories of
trans transformation, tell those

anywhere and everywhere we can.

I, when

Rupert Isaacson: and how do you tell them?

Melissa Connor: Yeah, good question.

I love to get people to our farm because
that's the best place is to, to show them.

Mm-hmm.

But I start by, we are members
of our local Chamber of Commerce.

In fact, talking about Grand Rapids.

The Grand Rapids Chamber just reached
out to me yesterday just to, and said, we

wanna meet you and hear about what's up.

So I'm like, okay, great.

So I'm going there to talk
to them about who we are.

So it, I look for any and op any and
every opportunity, but this is, this is

Rupert Isaacson: quite what I'm
hearing is that your way of telling

the story is actually person to person
with, with a, a larynx and a tongue

rather than just on social media.

Melissa Connor: Absolutely.

Now we do that too.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Melissa Connor: We, we try to do all the
things and I do have on our staff, very

talented communications coordinator,
Cassie, who does our website, our social

media and our print materials, and helps
with our events, which I shared with you.

We just had an, an event last week,
which is our fundraising event.

But the biggest thing is having
a person or multiple people

face-to-face time with anywhere.

I, I, I want the average person living
in our town to know us, to know our logo,

to, to hear about the work we've doing.

We're doing, like you said, to, they,
everybody knows somebody with a disability

who can benefit from these services.

So.

We need to be a household name.

And that takes time to develop.

And then we can't be shy about
the fact that we also rely on

donations to offer these services.

But we don't wanna compromise with
our, our equipment, our horses.

So if, if, if it ever felt like, we needed
to compromise because we had didn't have

funding you know who it's similar to.

Say there's a night.

This hasn't happened to us in a while.

We're very lucky, but say there's a night,
Wednesday night, we can't do programming

because all our volunteers canceled.

I used to think, who loves us enough
to show up to make this happen?

Who can I call with 10 minutes
notice to say, I need you to show up?

To make this happen for these students.

And I used to just have a short list.

Now, you don't wanna live that
way every day, every night,

but those moments happen.

So that was kind of the advice I
shared with this colleague yesterday

was, who do you know who you
can say, we barely made payroll.

Payroll's coming again in two weeks.

I, I need you, I need you to
step up and this is our need.

How can we do this?

So I try not to live in that
you know, it's on fire way.

I think a lot of therapeutic writing
centers do live in that space.

Hmm.

And maybe the growth was too fast.

Maybe the growth was, sometimes it's when
we bought our property, we were bursting

at the seams out of the boarding barn.

I told you we had hor, I
had horses at my house.

We were borrowing neighbor's horses,
we were borrowing boarded horses.

We had horses of our own.

We had three acres, but it
was part of this larger farm.

When I think about the things that we
did for those few years, like it was

nuts and we shouldn't it, it was not,
but I brought people to the property

and said, we are bursting at the seams.

And I had, I think I shared with
you, Rupert, I had a volunteer,

asked to have lunch with me who,
who said, we've noticed, I've

noticed, what's your 10 year plan?

What's your 20 year plan?

And I was able to share that with her.

And she

Melissa Connor: gave us a significant
donation, which became our down payment on

our farm that Renew was able to purchase.

Rupert Isaacson: To have that plan.

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

So to be able to, 'cause I was
thinking about it all the time.

I knew what we had wasn't sustainable.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Connor: But it, it, we
also had to demonstrate the need.

We had to demonstrate that
this is worth investing in.

We have a plan.

Worked hard to have a good
reputation in the community.

Happy to share the mission, vision,
values with anybody who wanted to know.

And then the right people are drawn to
us, and it's not for lack of initiating.

I tried to, there's, there's some
generous families in our town

and some of them are our donors.

Not all, you know.

Now there's some that I wish were our
donors that aren't, but you never know

what's gonna pique their interest or
their how you get their attention.

So you never stop trying.

I remember sending just a
letter of introduction to.

People I hadn't met before, but
saying, I would like to invite

you to learn about our mission.

You know, I think I sent
out a hundred letters.

I think I had two responses.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But

Melissa Connor: one of those
became one of our major donors.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

I have a story to tell about that,
and it's actually not to do with

the therapeutic riding part of my
career when I, as you know, I was

a an activist human rights activist
in Africa for quite a while.

And when I was first getting going with
that, because I'd made the mistake of

agreeing on, while sitting on top of a
sand dune during a conversation with a,

a sand bushman hunter gatherer called
David Kpa to, he said, we need, you're

a journalist, Rupert, assuming that
I had all this power, which I didn't.

You, we, you need to get us to the
west so that you know, we can tell

our story and get our lamb back.

Get us to the un.

And I went, okay.

Then afterwards I'm like, oh my gosh,
what did I promise in the event we did?

And we got into the State Department
in all sorts of places in the end

and actually got the job done.

Okay, great.

But I remember at the very beginning I
was thinking, okay, what am I gonna do?

And I recently published a book
called The Healing Land, which told

the story of, of my time there, at
least the early part of my time there.

And so I thought, well, I got this
book and so I can use that as a

bit of a platform, but you know,
it's 50,000 books published a year.

Just 'cause you've published a
book doesn't mean a whole lot.

And so, and I'd actually just recently
moved to Austin, Texas where I didn't

really know anybody, but we'd moved from
Denver where we had some friends and

had been active in the horse community.

So that, well, if I go there and
perhaps do a little fundraiser at the

big tattered cover, that's the big
independent bookstore there, you know.

I think a few people would show
up and probably, you know, maybe

get some, some donations going
and I'd, I'd started a little

nonprofit under the, someone else's.

So anyway, I thought I,
I've gotta start somewhere.

So I started with that.

So I had to fly from Austin back to Denver
with money I couldn't really afford to do.

And so let's say the whole thing cost
me five, 600 bucks to put on, which at

that, that time I didn't really have.

And five people showed up.

However, one of those people subsequently
went and talked to a friend of theirs,

and about three months later I got
an anonymous phone call saying, okay,

we've recent, you don't even know
who I am, blah, blah, blah, but I've

researched what you were talking about.

It's legit.

We are gonna back you for a third
of the budget, and if you tell other

people that we are backing you,
you'll, you'll get others as well.

And sure enough that, so what
that really hit home to me is.

Exactly what you said.

Get out there and tell the story.

And don't worry if only a
couple of people show up mm-hmm.

Because you just don't know who they
are or who they might go talk to.

But it sure as hell won't
happen if you don't do it.

Right.

So one of my strategies used to be
go talk to all the rotary clubs.

Like I would draw a circle

Melissa Connor: Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: At two hour radius
and say everyone, all the rotary clubs,

because they've gotta have speakers.

Right,

Melissa Connor: right.

Yeah.

And so they're

Rupert Isaacson: crying out for
speakers and usually the speakers

they get are like, crushingly boring.

So if you go in there with a lovely
PowerPoint of kids having an amazing

time with ponies, I mean, it is
like absolutely get heavy back.

Melissa Connor: I I, I think you'll like
this because you're such an engaging

speaker, but I always and people think
this is crazy in these rotary clubs, but

I always have people sit on their hands.

And feel their seat bones, you know?

Yeah.

And then just describe the three planes
of movement of the horse and get them

rocking in their seats and shifting their
weight and they feel their pelvis move.

And then I can draw that line
to, we can provide that movement

and this is what it does for the
people and these are the stories.

And then people were like,
wow, that was so great.

I'm like, all you did was
have them sit on your hands.

I used to joke that I'm the youngest
of, of three girls in my family.

And you know, we had the, the old station
wagon in the seventies growing up, and

I remember my mom saying, sit on your
hands back there, like in the backseat.

So I used to say,

no, I don't know.

I had to do this as a little girl, so we
didn't pick on each other or nobody picked

on me, but sit on your hands, indulge me
for a second and, you know, feel those

seat bones and understand the movement.

But yeah, I've said I've done that
talk at, at multiple times at Rotary

Clubs, but I, similar to you after
I spoke, I think the first time at

a rotary club here in a neighboring
town of Saugatuck here in Michigan.

I had a couple days later, a man give
me a call and say, heard you speak.

Loved what you said.

I would love a tour.

So set up a tour, met his wife.

They are major donors and
have become good friends.

Mm-hmm.

And I met them from speaking at now
this is a little small town rotary.

I think there were 20 people
there, you know, at this luncheon.

But most of the rot rotaries

Rupert Isaacson: I would
go to would be like that.

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

As

Rupert Isaacson: well.

But I mean, but sometimes that's
actually where I feel you get

the, a better response because
you are, there's less clamor.

You're not, if you go to a Roastary club
in the middle of New York or London,

there's a lot of interesting stuff around.

You're just one of many.

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's sometimes better
to be a big fish in a small pond.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Melissa Connor: Right.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And so sometimes it doesn't have to
be anything fancy, but like you said,

just getting the word out there, look
for, I have been a lunch speaker,

even for some local businesses,
like a financial investment group.

They do a lunch, lunch and learn
once a month, you know, and I've,

they invited me to speak and that was
because I met somebody at a Chamber

of Commerce networking event, which
I go to those and take my, you know,

take all my my cards, brochures, and

Rupert Isaacson: yes.

Melissa Connor: So those kinds of
things do, take, take, it takes

time, but getting that word out
so that you can invite people in.

And I think that's the way to go,
tell the story, get it out there.

But then if people could come to the
writing center and actually see with

their own eyes and see the students
and it, how powerful is it to see?

Either a child on the autism spectrum
go from you know, getting out of the

car, entering the barn to being on
the horse and seeing that empowerment

and that pride and how they glow
when they're on, on the horse.

I think the donors need to
see that and need to see.

We also serve people
with physical challenges.

And we have a, you know, a wheelchair
lift system, a sure hands lift system.

And so that's the, that's a very
physically obvious one where the horse

becomes the person's legs and their,
their pelvis, their spine gets to

move as if they were walking because
the horse is creating that movement.

That's, that's always a
powerful visual tool too.

And so just to bring people
into the space and show them.

Then they, they usually get one over.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, luckily also
the, the horses are always the best

ambassadors and, and the kids themselves.

It's like, yeah.

But one of the things I often encourage
people to do, I mean, everything

we're talking about is, is, is local,
but I always also encourage people

to go outside their area as well.

Like you say with lunch and
learns, you know, they could

be not actually in your area.

Perhaps you haven't got the budget to
travel, but often they can happen by Zoom.

I just did one for example, for UPS oh.

And they were like 2000
people on that employees.

Wow.

Rupert Isaacson: Guess what?

There's a ton of employees
with special needs.

if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Yeah.

Or, or family members with special needs.

Yeah.

So the Lunch and Learn people at UPS,
they look for, and they actually have

all these different clubs within UPS
of, they have a whole special needs.

Section, I'll gladly
hook you up, you know?

And wow.

So people were just coming, I was
doing it from Germany, but most of

the people were in the US but actually
they were further afield as well.

And then what happens is, I
think this is where we can really

help each other as a community.

So I had people at the question
saying, well, I'm sitting here

in North Carolina, or I'm sitting
here in Colorado, what can I do?

And I could say, oh, well we've actually
got these three practitioners over here,

or those four practitioners over there.

Or if there's no one in your area, you
could at least do the movement method

course yourself and work at home.

Yeah.

But you know, that's why
I'm always excited to.

Places like yours, like renew?

'cause I can sort of just add
them to the list of resources.

Yeah, I think it always comes across
very well when you are fundraising,

if you recommend other people.

I, I think that's often,
often a winning thing.

One of the things that I, I think is a
really big turnoff, which happens, and

I'm always surprised that people do it,
is when people badmouth other people,

and I think your average donor that has
been successful enough in life to be in a

position where they can be a donor that's.

A massive red flag right there.

It's like, oh, you're someone who
causes conflict in your community.

Yeah.

You're not someone who
causes, all right, well, mm.

And one sees a surprising amount of this
still in the therapeutic riding world.

It, it, it never ceases to amaze me.

It actually made me very
sad at the beginning.

'cause I, I came into it a little bit,
starry-eyed, you know, having worked

with my, my own son and stumbled into
something good and thought, oh, well,

you know, and whoa, it was, it wasn't

environment.

Rupert Isaacson: And and I thought,
well that makes me a bit sad as

the father of an autistic boy.

Because that means that you
all don't really prioritize the

kids, even if you say you do.

'cause if you did, you wouldn't indulge
in that kind of negative behavior because

you would know, it would always, it would
inevitably rebound on the kid, right.

I mean, but yeah.

Hey, humans to humans, so.

You know, one of the things I've
noticed about you is I've never heard

you talk that way about anybody.

And I do think that
there is a lesson there.

I think people, particularly donors,
are often listening more closely than

one might think to what you, not to what
you say, but to what you don't say or

to the things that you say that are not
perhaps directly to do with the work.

Yeah.

What, you know, could you
speak to that a little bit?

Because I know, you know, you've, you've,
you've had some experience in this, but

both in the sort of going outside of your
community and just also in the sort of

community, I guess what we are really
talking about is community building and

community building within our industry,
within our, within our field, if you like.

Where really we're all colleagues, right?

I mean Right.

Should be treated absolutely.

That way, you know, it's, it's.

Melissa Connor: Yeah, I, I, I
know I have a, a good friend and

colleague who just says it's crazy.

We bring horse people and we bring
advocates for people with disabilities.

Both tend to have intense personalities
and we just throw them together.

And so is there a surprise that we
have a difference of opinion sometimes?

Fair enough.

No.

Melissa Connor: But I do, I, I, I
resonate with what you're saying.

Absolutely.

Because people do have intense feelings
about equine assisted services and they

have intense feelings about this work.

They have intense feelings about their
horses, about their son, daughter,

nephew, grandchild, neighbor, friend,
you know, who's receiving services.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Connor: And so I think everything
does get magnified in our world and

Rupert Isaacson: Fair point.

Melissa Connor: So, yeah,
so conflict happens.

Conflict is part of life.

Conflict is is a natural outcome
of people working together.

So I think one of the things that I've
definitely learned and is not to, the

worst thing you can do is avoid conflict
or run away from it, or shy away from it,

but rather just dive in and in a, have
a culture, which we, we intentionally

talk about our culture at Renew,
where we want to care for one another.

We care for our horses with excellence.

We care for the people we serve.

We want people to feel like they're
heard and they're important.

And so we make a concerted effort to.

Talk about things.

I want people to understand if, if I,
as the executive director have to make

a decision, like, we're doing this
program, we're not doing this program.

I don't just make the decision and
walk away and boom, drop it, but

want everybody to know why or how we
arrived there or there was buy-in.

I had a family come to our barn dedication
last fall, who I had known from Virginia.

They had been donors and I had
been friends with their children

in, in that, in that space.

And we had lived in the same town and
they chose to, to come and, and support

renew really, because I was there and
they knew me, but we, I was walking around

showing them the property, looking at
the horses, kind of like what you did.

They said, how come this.

Place seems so amazing, or
how did you think to do this?

And I said, first of all, it was not me.

I try, I involved other
people every step of the way.

So when we got the first donation
for what became our permanent

home, we set, we did a town hall.

I invited volunteers, parents,
you know, I said, what do you want

in a therapeutic writing center?

And we sent out surveys.

We did this more than once.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, good idea.

Melissa Connor: We formed a,
a task force, a committee.

Basically, I made sure that I was a part
of it, but we had other staff members,

board members, volunteers, parents that
were, that were committed to meeting

together so that we could design.

The 20 acres, what's the flow?

Where do we want the horses?

Where do we want the riders?

How do we wanna welcome them?

What values need to be
evident and obvious?

And you know, we want people to
feel accepted and they had great

ideas that were not my ideas.

So I had some ideas, other people
had other ideas, but we threw 'em

all up there and we talked about
'em and we involved the builder.

And then when we kind of had a plan,
that's when I could take the plan to

the donors and say, will you fund this?

This is how we came up with the plan.

So I think that sometimes smaller
nonprofits have a founder or have

a designated leader who and maybe
it's even on their own property.

I never wanted the writing center
on my own property, just for some.

Separation of home and work life.

So I knew that wasn't something I
wanna renew to have their own property

because I think realistic enough to know
that, you know, I am may not be here

in five or 10 years, but I want renew
to still be here in five or 10 years.

You know, nobody, we
all are, we are mortal.

So, but I want renew I to invest in
this organization to live beyond me.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

So

Melissa Connor: I have to
try to plan it that way.

Create, buy-in, actively listen to
people and what they care about.

I have even called donors and I, I did
this, we had a mor, we have a mortgage

on the property and I was asking for
funds to build, you know, the new barn

and we hadn't paid off our mortgage.

And I reached out even to donors
and said, I'm leaning towards.

Keeping the mortgage right now, when
we got the mortgage, money was cheap.

We have like a 2%
interest on our mortgage.

So I said, are you okay if we carry
this mortgage a few more years and go

ahead and build our barn because this
is gonna make it an easier space to

serve our students in every donor I
called said, absolutely, if this is what

you feel you're ready for, I support
you and I will give to build the barn.

So, but I had to ask the question, so
had to have the trust, the relationship.

Those are just examples
of, it's not just me.

I think there's, if a person, if one
person or a small group of people makes

all the decision without asking the
questions or getting that community buy-in

I think conflict is more likely to happen.

Or people may be off put that they weren't
invited in and I think that's where.

Conflict can happen.

So now we did have disagreements
and I'd shared with you, yeah,

we had some disagreements.

We don't have, every staff member didn't
stay with us from our transition from

the smaller property to the larger one.

And that's okay.

This is a world where people all have
choices and not everybody liked us going

from a small center to a big center.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Melissa Connor: Not everybody
could make that jump.

And that's also okay.

I felt like I had been given a vision and
placed in this role as a leader where if

there were enough people with a shared
vision and the community was gonna get

behind it, we were gonna go with the idea
of serving as many people as possible.

So I.

Yeah, that just made some people
uncomfortable and you, so naturally, there

are some people that fall by the wayside.

And my hope, I can't say I've done this
a hundred percent because nothing is ever

a hundred percent, or if I could do over,
maybe I do some of that differently.

But I can say that I have tried my
best to maintain relationships with the

people that wanted to be part of what
we were doing in the community and,

and try to always have an open door.

Anyone can reach out and say, request
a meeting, or, I, I try to tell my

staff too, anything's on the table.

We talk, we make sure we encourage
each other, appreciate each other.

We meet together, we ride together.

I've done things.

Even talking, talking about riding.

Our instructors are doing it overnight
next week, but we all went and took

a hunter jumper lesson together at a,
at a local barn like two years ago.

They loved it.

We just took a day and you met Ellis,
even Ellis wrote a third red named

Betty and jumped a three foot fence.

You know, I mean, it was great.

So we try to, we try to build in
experiences at every level where we can

still share life together, share our
work together, have fun together, but

all of that works to set a stage where
conflict isn't, isn't gonna ruin us.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's you had
mentioned earlier in the conversation

excellence in staffing, and I was
actually gonna ask you about that.

So I think you just sort of answered
my question a little bit there.

But I do think that
that's something which.

It doesn't always happen and it's entirely
forgivable because as you say, I think

the majority of places that do our
work are often in a state of overwhelm.

Mm-hmm.

And one needs a little bit of a pause and
a perspective to be able to come up with

ideas like, let's not only all go and have
a hunter jumper lesson, but how do we set

aside the time and the budget for that?

And in order to do that, that means a
certain amount of efficiency must have

taken us outta the overwhelm phase.

You have been in overwhelm.

Mm-hmm.

Talk to us a little bit about how you
went from overwhelm to non overwhelm so

that you could be in a position to staff
in the way that you wanted to staff.

Melissa Connor: What a great question.

So it was from 2014 to 2019, we
had a five year lease agreement for

that little three acre parcel, which
I mentioned at the boarding barn.

Happens to be across the street,
literally at the end of my driveway,

across the street from where I live.

So I think I dove in.

I was so excited for one thing
to have sort of our own space for

renew to exist and operate in that
five years we grew exponentially.

I knew by 2016, definitely 2017.

We had so much interest.

We had schools reaching out to us.

We had parents, families,
eager for our services.

We started a waiting
list, I think in 2016.

I knew it was temporary.

I think I was willing to put in
the work because I knew at the,

at, when 2019 rolled around,
we had to go somewhere else.

We could not stay where we were.

We were not going to.

It was a five-year lease that I
had signed, you know, in 2014.

And it, it was not sustainable,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Melissa Connor: So I think I saw that
there was gonna be a light at the

end of the tunnel so I could work
really hard for those few years.

And yes, overwork myself
for those few years.

Learned a lot along the way,
but then we knew that something

better was going to happen.

But like I said, I, I
knew we needed an answer.

It was in 2017 that a volunteer noticed,
you know, who, who ended up being our

donor, who gave us the down payment
for the property that we have now.

That's our permanent home.

I didn't initiate that.

I was just trying to stay focused
on the mission and do good work.

Mm-hmm.

I was trying to do good work and I was
willing to, to work hard to do that

good work for that period of time.

If, if if that had not happened,
you know, where would we be?

I pro I would've preferred to move
to a different property that would've

better served our needs, but I,
we were just gonna wait and see.

So for us it was, divine intervention,
the stars aligned anyway, the donor

stepped up and we were able to, to,
to make that move and make that plan.

But I always knew it was temporary.

Mm-hmm.

So five years might not feel
like a long time, but it was, it

was, you know, it was a while.

Rupert Isaacson: It was five years.

Overwhelm can be,

yeah.

It's well, the proof's in the pudding,
Melissa, you know, what, what you've

achieved is is beautiful to see.

Mm, thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: What I would encourage
listeners to do is reach out to Melissa

and even consider going up there because
it's a beautiful facility, but it's also

not a ridiculously overwhelming facility.

It's not the Kentucky Horse Park.

You know, it's it's on a
scale that one could imagine.

Doing oneself once one had a
certain amount of momentum rolling.

But I think that I would like to see
a lot more mentorship within our field

because most of us bootstrapped it.

Most of us fell into it.

Most of us.

We certainly didn't get
into it for the money.

And we, we found ourselves here.

Now I think it's changing.

It's now becoming a
really viable career path.

We are really seeing this in Ireland,
for example, where the government really

got behind Horse Boy and movement method.

Once it, it was very clear that at a place
called Li Skint Farm man, David Doyle,

who I've talked about before sort of
proved that they could take very violent.

People who had up to three minders
with them at any one time, each of

which is very expensive, and bring that
down to one, you know, consistently

over five years of this thing.

And of course, this got
government attention.

And eventually they said,
okay, we'll, we'll back it.

Now suddenly we're looking at having a
different type of problem, which is how do

we staff these large new facilities that
are coming up with the government backing?

Because yes, sure there's a lot of
good horse people in Ireland, but now

that there's government stamp on it,
they've gotta have these qualifications.

They gotta have this,
they gotta have that.

And the pool narrows.

You can't just have your friend from down
the road who's good with ponies right.

That's not gonna fly anymore.

So

the industry's shifting.

And it's good because
the, when you and I began.

We were lucky if we could find
volunteers, the people that we ended

up employing or that you still employ.

We had to really scramble
to find that budget.

Now as things change, it, it's not a thing
that people have to think about begging

themselves to do or just volunteering
or perhaps working for a ER's wage.

It's shifting.

Mm-hmm.

With that shift, however, comes
the next set of challenges, which

are good challenges to have.

How to find the staffing, how to put the
strategies in place, how to deal with

conflict, how to deal with entitlement.

You know, because if people are coming
into an actually an assured job, you know,

rather than something that they've sort
of created themselves, that does sometimes

create a slightly different mentality.

That's not always a healthy
mentality, da, da, da.

They're gonna need to turn to people
like you, Melissa, I think for guidance

that this next generation coming up.

So do you have any thoughts
that way in terms of creating

those sorts of symposiums?

Official, unofficial, there was just
one in Ireland, for example, last week

we're doing this in a, just at the end of
April, April, 2025, the Equine Assisted

services Ireland sort of working group.

We're getting together with a
lot of the key players there.

Some of whom.

Think more highly of each other than
others, but yet they're beginning to

be able to sort of bury those hatchets
and actually get in the same room

and do it because we are realizing,
no, we're going to the next level.

Now we can't be a bunch of kindergartners.

The US is obviously a much bigger

organism divided into regions, but are
you starting to think along these lines

as well of, of, of starting to create
these, if you like, think tanks, really?

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

I, I am, I believe you have nailed it
on the head that mentorship is what

our industry needs more than anything.

And we do, we tend to have
doers, people that like to be.

Part of the magic that happens in
the arena, the magic that happens

between participant and horse.

But we do need people

excited to go out in the community
and tell stories, people who know

how to plan strategically, people who
know how to do something, like create

a budget, raise a budget, balance
the books, write job descriptions

Rupert Isaacson: and watch
calling from the room.

Yeah,

Melissa Connor: I know those are skills
that people don't get into equine

assistance services to do those things.

They think, oh, that's the business side.

I, I have, have at times feel torn
because I love the direct service.

That's why, that's what
drew me to the field.

I, I grew up loving horses,
riding horses, but when I saw.

The transformation that happened
with children with disabilities.

I, I, that just became my passion.

There was nothing else I wanted to do.

But I had a, a background that did
prepare me for nonprofit work, and that

did prepare me to understand the, those
other things, how to fundraise, how to

write a grant, how to develop a board the
difference between governance and doing.

And I, so I feel, and so I've
created my role at Renew.

So I am in both worlds.

Yeah, I'm res fully responsible
for both worlds, but I have people

around me supporting me so that
I'm not the only one doing that.

But in that sense I also recognize
that most people aren't able

to keep a foot on both sides.

And that's completely fine
because I think everyone should.

Like, I, I think we should be recruiting
people into equine assisted services who

are, who are MBAs, who are accountants,
who are, you know, know that side

and but, but get so excited about our
mission that they wanna, they wanna help.

That's who our board.

Yes.

It's because at the

Rupert Isaacson: moment we get those
people, if they have, if they have

kids that we're serving and then
they become part of the organization.

But we don't necessarily
get them if, if we don't.

Yeah.

Melissa Connor: If we don't.

No, you and you're exactly right.

But I do think, and I'll,
I'll, I'll use my, I.

My son really quickly 'cause he
just shared this with me over

the weekend and my, my son is 29
and he had a stroke during birth.

He is, he really helped open my eyes to
help people learn differently and hit

developmental milestones differently.

And but anyway, Tommy is a, a, a
web designer is in the IT world

now in his late twenties, but,
and he's working for a company.

He enjoys his job.

He is great at his job, but he did
just share with me, he's like, I'm

just helping this company get richer.

So feeling a little like, I wish I
was spending my days doing something.

That was making a difference
in the world, other than just

making this company richer.

So, which, you know, as a mom,
I was like, oh, I love that.

I want you to get, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: tell them to
make that donation to renew

all in Michigan.

Melissa Connor: But I, I love that in
his generation that he was feeling that.

And now he does vol, you know,
he does some volunteer work and

he volunteers some IT stuff.

And believe me, he was my IT
support for many, many, many years.

I bet just you know, our, did our first
website and all of that, but it, I think

we need to tap into that, wanting to
give back what gives meaning to life.

Mm-hmm.

People most people feel good making
a financial donation, a donation

of their time, talent, treasure.

And, but we, we need to be
networking with people and giving

them opportunities so that.

A center, a riding center can develop
in a balanced way so that you can

have a budget, so you can be able to
hire the right people at the right

time and pay them a living wage.

And not just a living
wage, a competitive wage.

And yeah, I mean, we could talk
for days, so this is needed.

I've been part of just kind of a movement
within path, trying to educate some

people on how to think strategically.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Connor: And some
of these business side.

I'm always happy to talk to people, love
connecting with people around the country

or around the world if, and so would
love to continue those conversations.

But I think you're right, more
of a think tank is needed.

A, a greater support system is
needed so that people aren't just

out on their own trying to do it.

And then all of a sudden they realize,
wait, I didn't, I didn't do X, Y,

and Z and now I'm in danger of, you
know, losing my 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit

status here in America, or, you know,
or something like that because I

forgot to file a right piece of paper.

So there needs to be somebody paying
attention to that side of things too.

And thinking 10, 20, 50 years down
the road, because this industry

is growing is the fastest growing.

It really is in one industry.

Rupert Isaacson: No, it really is.

It really is.

And it's only going to grow more.

Melissa Connor: Yeah.

So we just need to equip people
to, to sustain it into the future.

Rupert Isaacson: So their listeners where,
where's, what's your five year plan?

What's your 10 year plan?

What's your 20 year plan?

Actually, let's not use the word plan.

Let's use the word dream.

Dream.

Yeah.

Because yeah.

What are you excited?

Where are you excited to go?

Not where do you feel you ought to go?

Or I guess we should go over here.

What, what makes your heart light up?

With, because I've generally found that.

Effectiveness seems to follow excitement.

Mm-hmm.

Anything that I've not been so excited
about, I might have been able to pull

it off, but it always felt that it
came at a massive cost of energy.

You know?

And as you know, that the stuff one's
excited about, one just doesn't even

notice really, the work one puts in.

It's just like, it almost
feels recreational.

Melissa Connor: Absolutely.

And that's, that's what happened to me.

I was so excited when I
started as a volunteer.

I found myself thinking about the horses,
thinking about the students, thinking

about how, what if I was the instructor
in that class, what would I teach?

How would I do that?

How would I, yeah.

How would I condition this horse?

How would I, what would I, so then
just grad doors start opening up,

you know, when there's a need.

And then I had a chance to,
to fill some of those needs.

And it, it, it did, it felt
like a, it was a passion.

I couldn't not do it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

That, that grabbing by the

collar, that seems to happen
with life and we get pulled in.

Yeah.

I'm very glad it happened to you
because you're doing extremely,

extremely good work out there.

And work I look for, I just look really
look forward to seeing how you develop it.

And you're sort of in that geographic
hub in the Midwest there that what you

do can really radiate out and influence.

So we are sort of right
now at the two hour mark.

Do you have any last thoughts?

Do you do, is there anything that you
would like listeners to go away with from

their time with you or that you would
really encourage them to think about?

Not every, you know, there's newbies
listening here, there's seasoned

campaigners and all points in between.

What would your closing,

Melissa Connor: Another great question.

I, I love I've loved getting to know you.

I've loved the Horse Boy method since
I learned about it, you know, 15 years

ago or so when your book came out.

And even though I was in Path
International, I think there's a so

much that we can learn from each other.

So I choose to continue to learn,
continue to kind of keep an open mind.

Hmm.

I loved learning the Teke method and
I'm so excited to incorporate that more

fully into our conditioning program and.

Into our service offerings at Renew.

And that is a whole new thought.

Like, I didn't know that that was gonna
be something I'd be excited about.

So I think just being open to
learning from those who have

paved the way ahead of us.

I also know when something doesn't
resonate with my core values and.

And, and that's okay.

But I also think just sharing,
having having your people, have

your team, have your community.

And it can be, it can be
global, like you said.

It doesn't have to just be geographically
in one location, but people that

you can lean on, discuss with bounce
ideas off of keep learning, keep

growing because I'm excited about the
future of equine assisted services.

I think, I think we're just
at the tip of the iceberg.

I think.

I think that these program offerings,
every person who deals with a disability

or a challenge to their daily living,
I think deserves the chance to have a

meaningful interaction with a horse and
that can potentially change their life.

And our vision statement at
Renew is positive life change

with every horse experience.

Mm-hmm.

And we try to have that.

Caring environment, positive energy,
so that there's a chance for that life

transformation because of what we do.

And I think we all, all of us in
this world have the opportunity

to offer that out to the world.

And that just excites me.

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

Yeah.

Stay curious.

Basically.

Melissa Connor: Basically, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Keep challenging
yourself, keep learning new stuff.

Yeah.

I couldn't, I couldn't agree more.

Absolutely.

Couldn't agree more.

And there's so much new, exciting stuff
happening out there, like the stuff with

Lynn Thomas with Arenas for Change and

Melissa Connor: Oh yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: The mental health
and the, the, the way which the,

I, I, I, I feel that the field
is both broadening and each Yeah.

It's like there is now much more
cross-fertilization happening and I

think that's people voting with their
feet, you know, where some of the

organizations were some years ago, quite.

Not so open to that sort of thing.

But I think a lot of the members
were just like, well, hold on.

We are interested in everything.

That's why we sort of got into you in
the first place, you know, because we

are generally interested, why wouldn't
we be interested in five or six things?

And I always encourage, you know,
any place I go to do trainings, it's,

please don't just do horse boy tech
and stuff, please do 5, 6, 7, 8 other

things because you just don't know
who's gonna walk through that door.

You need more resources than my stuff
you need, you know, that's just common

sense 1, 1 1 needs a, a sort of faculty
of, of, of, of resources, you know,

just like a university would or, yeah.

So

absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: I think you sort of
represent that to me, I think that that

positive outlook 'cause that that positive
outlook's actually the effective outlook.

It's actually the practical
outlook that just, I

Melissa Connor: like it, like
you said, it's a, it's a.

Service driven.

It's about the child, it's about
the adult, it's about the the

person coming to us for services.

It's not about us.

So have to stay humble and curious.

Rupert Isaacson: So
how do people find you?

Give us the website.

Melissa Connor: Oh, sure.

It's renew, R-E-N-E-W-T-R-C dot org.

Rupert Isaacson: Renew trc.org.

We'll have that obviously in the notes.

Mm-hmm.

Any other stuff?

Instagram's Facebooky things.

Melissa Connor: Yep.

We're on, we're on Facebook and Instagram.

Renew Therapeutic Writing Center.

Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

Fall into

Melissa Connor: Michigan.

Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

And they can email you through there.

Contact you through, yep.

Brilliant.

Melissa Connor: Yep.

Alright.

Absolutely.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: we'll do this again.

Hopefully let's, let's see
how things go in a year.

Come back on.

Tell us where you're at.

Melissa Connor: Alright.

Sounds great.

Thank you so much, Rupert.

I enjoyed it.

My pleasure.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for coming on.

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