Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
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It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

I've got a power duo with me today.

I dunno where to go with
Mark first or Chrissy first.

So I've got Mark Rashid, 'cause
he's that to that side of me.

And I've got Chrissy McDonald,
who they're actually in the same

house, but in separate rooms.

And they do extremely interesting things
with both equine and human wellbeing

that it's handy to be aware of if
you're going to be in these fields.

So they're coming to us from Estes Park in
Colorado, which is just north of Boulder,

near Rocky Mountain National Park.

Lucky people.

And they, like I say, do extraordinary
things, but I think they need to

tell us these extraordinary things.

So Mark and Chrissy, thank you
so very much for coming on.

Would you please Yeah.

Thank you.

Introduce yourselves.

Mark Rashid: This is awesome.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us what you do.

Chrissy, ladies first, do
you wanna kick off first?

Crissi McDonald: Sure.

The short version is, is I'm a author,
a photographer, and a clinician.

So I spend the majority of my time
teaching helping horses and people.

Communicate more clearly.

And mark and I teach primarily
about softness and softness

as a internal attribute.

Rather than thinking about soft hands
or soft whatever in your body, instead

of it being external, we like to explore
what does it mean to be internally soft?

So that's the majority of our work
and that is something we practice,

whether we're teaching or not.

And I will let Mark talk Now.

Excuse the dog.

Rupert Isaacson: That's
no waste to talk about.

Your husband

couldn't help it.

Sorry.

Mark Rashid: He wasn't talking yet, so
you, you get used to it after a while.

It's okay.

Yeah.

You know, fatalism.

Yeah, I mean I've been working
with horses cleaning up after 'em

for sure since I was about 10.

And I got really lucky in that the
person who I started learning from at

a very early age was very focused on
the wellbeing of the horse regardless

of what you were doing with it.

And so that was my kind of
jumping off point from there.

And I was I was pretty
shocked the first time.

I saw somebody hitting a horse, and
because I had never seen that before.

And so I, I had this foundation of
kindness if you will, when it came to

horses, but also being effective in your
work with horses and being able to do,

being able to be kind and, and effective.

And and kindness isn't always just, you
know, kinda letting the horse do whatever,

you know, there, there are boundaries
that need to be set and parameters but

they can be done in such a way that
what to where the horse can understand

what it is that you're, you're doing.

And so that was my, that
was my jumping off point.

And as I started going out and working
with horses on my own, I was I have to

backtrack just a little bit and say that
Walter was the person's name who I, I

worked with when I was a kid, and his
place, not just, not just the work that

he did with horses, but his place in
general, when you walked onto his place,

it was basically just him and I working
together and it had a certain feel to it.

He had a certain feel to him, him and
and his place had a certain feel, and

it was and so when I went out on my own,
there was a, I, I know now that what

I was feeling was there was a kindness
and a humanity to what he was doing

and who he was and how he did things.

And, but I didn't know that then.

And when I started to work on my own,
I tried to find a way to develop that

feel and the work that I was doing
and the, with the horses and with

the people that I was working with.

And primarily I emulated what
I saw with him initially.

And I couldn't actually develop the feel
that he, that I was, that permeated his,

you know, working with him because I
didn't really know what I was looking for.

So I was, I was sort of mechanically
going through the motions and and I,

and I tried to when I, back in the
eighties, 1980s of the last century we,

you know, there were a lot of clinicians
coming out in the early to mid 1980s.

And not a lot, but, and, but some, and,
and, they were saying things that, that

sounded a lot like what Walter would say.

And so I would go see these people
and what they were saying sounded

like what he was saying, but what they
were doing was not what he was doing.

And it was very difficult
for me for a long time.

But eventually it, it led
me into the world of martial

arts Aikido in particular.

And that's where I started to
see and feel what I had seen and

felt with Walter back in the day.

The internal aspect of what was going
on is funny because I, I found it,

I didn't find it in the horse world.

I found it in the martial arts world, and
then I was able to then cross over and,

and bring it into my work with horses.

And that's, and the work

Rupert Isaacson: with horses that you
were doing was the This is Western.

I'm, you know, presuming in

Mark Rashid: no, it's
all, it's all where was

Rupert Isaacson: this?

Here in Colorado.

Okay.

And, but was it primarily starting
young horses or was it helping

people across disciplines?

Like were you a jumping
coach specifically?

What were most pe what was your work
at that stage mostly predicated around?

Mark Rashid: It was all disciplines.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

I mean, from driving, i've,
I've been a, a teamster for

back since I was a, a young kid.

We actually raised draft horses for,
for quite a while four or five years.

We raised draft horses, started them.

My great-great grandfather actually
brought the first Clydesdales

into America from Scotland.

So, yeah, so, so it's
pretty much any discipline.

We work off of principles and so
rather than technique, technique

is important, but we, if you work
with principles, then the principles

can cross over into any discipline.

Sure.

Mark Rashid: And horses are
horses, so, you know, they're,

it's not a mystery

Rupert Isaacson: and yet it's
a great mystery, like people

Mark Rashid: indeed.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: I guess, I guess the
question though is, is usually depending

on people's geo geographic location
and the culture that they come out of,

they tend to gravitate more to one area
of the equine world than the other.

I know that Colorado stands
at the crossroads, so you

kind of get everything there.

But you do have a, you know, a
very strong working ranch tradition

there at the same time, up and down
the front ranges of the Rockies.

You've got all of the equestrian,
FEI disciplines you expect to find

and many other things as well.

And it's very interesting that
you have the driving background.

I want to, to, to return
to that in a minute.

When your mentor Walter was working,
what was he primarily doing with horses?

What, what were people
mostly coming to him for?

And then when you went out
on your own, were you kind of

setting out to do the same thing?

Mark Rashid: People didn't
actually come to him.

What he did was he went out
and bought horses whether

from private sellers or sales.

He bought, he would buy these horses.

And then we basically worked with him.

He actually had a stock
contractor buddy for rodeo.

And so early on he would put me
on these horses and to see if they

would buck good and if they buck

Crissi McDonald: days before
helmets and release forms

Mark Rashid: and, he, and if they buck
good, then he would sell 'em to this

buddy of his who was a stock contractor.

And then if they didn't buck
good, then we worked with them.

And and basically that's what it was.

It was just him and I most of the time.

And we, you know, so if, if he was
talking, I figured he was talking to me.

And if I was talking, I guess
he figured I was talking to him.

But but that's basically what it was.

And he would buy and sell.

You know, some folks might say these days
that he was, that he rescued horses, but

I don't believe that's how he saw it.

You know, it was just a way
for him to make a living.

He'd, he was an old hard scrabble
rancher and, you know, making a living

with horses, and that's what he did.

Rupert Isaacson: And was he, when he
was effectively rehabbing these horses

as they came in, were they going out to
all disciplines or were they primarily

going out to the ranching world?

What, what were they in
general, being prepared to do?

I don't

Mark Rashid: know.

Remember, I, I was, I was
pretty young at the time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: So people, but it wasn't, for

Rupert Isaacson: example, having
you work over poles and cavalletti

to turn them into jumping horses,

Mark Rashid: or It would be, it would
be branches and down trees and, you

know, it wasn't, it wasn't anything.

Official, if you wanna call
that, and you'd be using

Rupert Isaacson: Western and
English tack for this, you'd be

Mark Rashid: mostly Western.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Mark Rashid: In fact, all, all,
it was either Western or bareback.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yep.

But then from there, the horse
could go out to any type of Yeah.

Home.

Got it.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And if you would
say, apart from his internal softness

and kindness, if he had a system
that you could, in retrospect look

back on, could you outline it?

Mark Rashid: I don't, I couldn't
tell you that there was a system.

Mm-hmm.

Because everything was different.

You know, he never, I don't recall
him doing the same thing with

a whole bunch of horses ever.

He, he took the horse and whatever it was
that the horse needed, that's what he did.

So there wasn't any sort of program,
if you wanna call it that, or a system.

Mm-hmm.

He worked, he truly worked with
the horse as an individual.

And that was one of the things that
really stuck with me when I would start

seeing some of these other trainers
later on in life where everything was so

regimented and if the horse didn't fit
or didn't respond, then the trainer just

did more of it, or did it bigger, or I.

Harder or whatever.

And that just wasn't I, that was
again, so foreign to me that mm-hmm.

That it, it kind of
didn't make sense to me.

And it, to be honest, it doesn't make
that much sense to me even today.

So, so there, I if you wanna say it's
ay, if you wanna call it a system,

his system was to not have a system.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Or or at least to, to recognize the
individuality of each horse Exactly.

And, and follow it.

Mark Rashid: Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to
return to this in a minute.

I just wanna go to Chrisy with
a couple of questions here.

But we all know that systems
also can be very useful.

So for example, if I'm wanting to play
guitar, I don't play it as well as you

do mark, but you know that I can do
a certain amount with self-teaching,

but I do know that it's very, very
helpful to sit down with somebody

and, and have them show me scales and
arpeggios because it will help me to

order and then go off on my own again.

And then they show me something
else that I can order.

And so this, this interplay of this
say healthy tension between systems and

individuality, autonomy and connectedness,
I mean, I think is a reality.

But as you say, sometimes it's so
overdone that one can dominate the

other to the detriment of the whole.

And so I'd like to go into that because I
think it's important for people to have.

Maps to get around with.

They are helpful.

And at the same time, you don't want
to stifle your cre creativity of

finding your own way over the mountain,
you know, but it does help to know

there's a mountain there sort of thing.

Mm-hmm.

So perhaps, and martial arts
obviously do have systems.

So let, if we could just go into
that paradox a little bit later.

I'd, I'd love to, because I think
this is a question that's in a lot of

people's minds of how does one strike
that balance, if you know what I

mean?

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: So Chrissy, can,
how did you begin with all of this?

That and again, you're
not just with horses.

You are, you're an artist,
you're a photographer, you're an

author you're in the humanities.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So give us how you started and what,
more or less, where you're at now.

What, what, what the mission is.

Crissi McDonald: Well I was born
into a family who lived in town.

No, no one in my family likes horses.

Where what

tell was that mean?

Crissi McDonald: This is in Arizona.

It's called Flagstaff.

Okay.

And they don't dislike horses, but
it was like, when I was young, it

was like, well, of course she likes
horses because every kid likes horses.

And so I would.

Clean stalls in exchange for lessons.

I would groom horses.

I would clean out horse
trailers, I would babysit.

I did all these different
things to get time with horses

because I didn't have one.

I lived in town.

And then when I was in my early
twenties, I was the director of the

riding program at a Girl Scout camp.

And then shortly after that, up
until that time, I'd been riding

other people's horses and basically
exercising and grooming it.

It was, I wouldn't call what I
was doing training so much as, oh,

just keeping the horse engaged.

And I really, I've always loved horses and
I fell into, I didn't fall into, but I had

a friend who had horses and she came from
the background of German martingales and

tie downs and spurs and crops and whips.

And if you tell the horse to do
something, they better by God do it.

And here I come from the background
of grooming horses and hopping on

bareback and riding in the cinder
hills and, you know, just doing

whatever, falling off and climbing
back up on a log to get on the horse.

And I rode standard breads and quarter
horses and Arabs, and I just, it

didn't matter if it was a horse.

I was happy.

And so I got into this world of
very, you know, it was very strict

and very hard, but I didn't know.

I thought this was what horses, I thought
once you started getting serious with

horses that you had to be this way.

But I never liked it.

And so I got my own horses.

I started teaching lessons
started out with kids.

So anywhere from five years to 14
years, did a lot of kid lessons

and then moved into training.

I was very dissatisfied with, with
what I knew because it seemed very

mechanical and unforgiving and,
you know, the horses always did

it, but I didn't like how it felt.

I didn't like how it felt to me,
and I didn't like how it looked.

And so I started looking
for alternative ways.

This was in the late nineties, so this
is when a bunch of clinicians came out

and I ended up studying with John Lyons
a little bit, which was very educational

at that time, going from the world I
was in to what he was doing which is

more like conditioned response stuff.

It was revolutionary.

But even that, when I started
applying some of those techniques

to my own horsemanship inside of me,
I was like, that this isn't enough.

That there, there must be someone
or something out there who knows

something that I don't even know.

I don't know.

And so I asked a friend of mine who,
because she'd ridden with, at that

time, she'd probably ridden with
50 different clinicians, everyone

from really well known to local.

And, and she said she mentioned
Mark's name and I, and she said

he has a clinic in two months.

I said, great, sign me up.

I didn't know who Mark was at that time.

He had three or four books out.

She said, here's a book.

It was considering the horse.

So I took the book home and I read it and
I'm like, oh, this guy sounds pretty cool.

And so I went to do a clinic and it
was a four day clinic and I didn't

have a saddle that fit my horse.

So I rode in bareback and you
know, I'm a trainer at that point

and I'm thinking, oh, this'll, you
know, we won't need to do much.

'cause I'm a trainer and
I've trained my horse.

I think I was still in my twenties
up and after four days, I remember

having the distinct feeling that I knew
nothing and that wasn't a bad thing.

I was really excited by the fact that even
though I didn't know what was going on,

I knew how I felt and how my voice felt
doing this work that centered on softness.

I knew that that was the
direction I wanted to go.

Rupert Isaacson: I could quip that.

Oh, and then he was so expensive
that you figured, well,

actually I better marry him.

And then I couldn't afford to like, keep,
keep the, keep the learning going, right?

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Keep cuts down on my cost.

Definitely.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, I mean, one
has to be practical about these things.

Crissi McDonald: That's right.

That's right.

Rupert Isaacson: So
Mark, consider the horse.

So Chrissy comes along, she's
searching and she's finding

things that are effective, but
yeah, it's not sitting with her.

Talk to us about Consider the
Horse, what's in that book?

What motivated you to write that book?

What did you hope, what do you
hope people get from that book?

Mark Rashid: the, the question
is, it's a really interesting

question because I didn't, it
wasn't my choice to write that book.

I was asked to write it and No,

Rupert Isaacson: by who?

Mark Rashid: By the, the guy who
actually turned out to be my editor.

So I was teaching horse
training at the time.

We were using Mustangs for that.

And I had a little school this is
before I started doing clinics,

and I was doing a little school and
we used Mustangs to teach people

how to train and work with horses.

And there was a, a woman in the class
and she said, you know, my, my husband

has a horse and he's not getting along
with it, and we would like to sell him,

and could you come by and just kind of
tell us what this horse might be worth?

So I went over and you
couldn't catch the horse.

So we worked on that for a little while.

Once you got him caught,
you couldn't saddle him, you

know, you couldn't brush him.

So we worked on that for a little while.

Once you got him saddled
you couldn't get on.

Once you got on, you couldn't go.

Once you got him to go, you couldn't stop.

So we worked on all of that stuff
for, I don't know, maybe 45 minutes.

And by the time he was, he was, he
wasn't a, a troubled horse or bad horse.

He had just been getting releases for
things that they didn't want him to do.

And so it was just a complete
misunderstanding and he didn't

like the way he felt and the owners
didn't like the way they felt.

And it didn't take hardly any time just by
showing the horse that, you know, if he.

Here's the right, here's the thing
that we're looking for you to do.

And he would go, oh, okay,
well then I'll just do that.

So anyway I had actually written some
articles for Western Horseman Magazine

and by that time, and so the, her
husband, his name was Scott, and he,

he said, have you ever thought about
writing a book about what you do?

And I, and I said, no, I haven't
given it any thought to, to do that.

And he said, well, if you ever want,
if you ever want to write a write a

book, let me know 'cause I can help.

And I was thinking, well, you know,
what do you got a typewriter or what?

You know, so, but but it turns
out that he was an editor for this

publishing company, Johnson Books.

And he, a couple weeks later, he
called me up and he said, have you

given any more thought to that book?

And I said, I haven't given any thought
to it, you know, and so we, we sat

down and worked it out that night.

We, we were on, we were on
the phone for a couple hours.

He went down the next day and
pitched it to the publishing

company and they bought it.

So, I just wanted to write a book
that, the idea was I wanted it to read

like a James Harriet book and I wanted
it to look like a Will James book.

James was a cowboy back in the 1930s who
was also a, an author and illustrator.

And so that's how I,
that's how it came to be.

And it was about, basically it was just
about working with troubled horses and,

which was basically what I had been doing
up to that point primarily is just lots

and lots and lots of troubled horses.

So that's what the book was about.

And, and I and

Rupert Isaacson: Christy,
sorry, you go ahead.

I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Mark Rashid: Oh, no, I was just
gonna say that I didn't, I didn't

think it was, I didn't, I didn't
think it was gonna be a big deal.

And they actually didn't want it.

The, the marketing guy after I'd started
writing the book, he went and looked

at the bestselling horse books on the
market and they were all how to books.

And mine wasn't that,
you know, even close.

He didn't think he'd be able to sell it.

And so long story short, they, they
published it and they, I think they

only did like 3000 copies and they sent
it out to a few to get some reviews.

And the first review was from a big
time magazine here in the States.

And it was the, the, the thing that
they said in the review is that I was

a Colorado clone of James Harriet.

The book took off.

Rupert Isaacson: So
you'd hit the spot there,

Mark Rashid: I guess.

And it's, right now it's sold over a
million and a half copies worldwide.

Good Lord.

So, yeah.

It's, who knew.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, well done.

Hats off Chrissy.

When you read that book what, what
made you think, yeah, I need to

go and learn from this person?

Crissi McDonald: Well, I was
already signed up for the clinic,

so I'd already paid my money.

That

Rupert Isaacson: helped.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

When I read the book, it struck me
because I had been reading horse

books and they were all how to books.

You know, if you want the horse
to do a, you have to do B and C.

If the horse does D you do f.

You know, and they had great illustrations
and it was mostly, you know, how to

get the horses to do stuff, which,

yeah,

Crissi McDonald: it, that's not, it's not
a bad thing, but it was very engaging for

the part of my brain that likes systems.

So we were talking about systems earlier.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: When I read
Mark's book, it was all stories.

And so the feeling I got from those
had nothing to do with my brain.

It was all, it was in my body.

I was thinking, you know,
I've never thought of that.

That seems so much kinder or that
seems so much more easy to understand

than A, B, C, DEFG, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Give
us a couple of examples.

Are there a couple of things that,
stories that really leapt out at you?

If you could just summarize
them that probably stick in

your head like that you thought?

Oh yeah.

Gosh, yes.

Crissi McDonald: One of 'em
that I remember is Mark has a

story about catching a horse.

And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna try
and quote it, but it was at that time,

catching horses was basically about if
the horse wants to run, you make 'em

run until they don't wanna run anymore.

And so that's what I had learned
is you get in a round pen if the

horse doesn't wanna be caught, we
go around and then the horse will

get tired and then you can catch up.

Rupert Isaacson: That's assuming
you couldn't even get the horse into

the round pen in the first place.

Yes,

Crissi McDonald: yes, yes.

Thank, thankfully I was, I was
blessed to have horses that actually

went with me into the round pen.

Or it had, there was a large corral
or something, but it, when I was doing

that, it was so disconnected, you
know, I would do it and I, and I could

get the job done except for a couple
horses, which is why I went searching.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: But Mark talked
about just moving instead of driving

the horse, you know, run, run, run.

Oh, if you wanna run by
God, we're gonna run.

Instead of doing that is going
with the horse as they move.

So that, so that you're more
doing something in connection.

And that, you know, that really
struck me is because up until this

time I had been immersed in kind of
a dominance version of horsemanship.

Right?

I say, you do.

And that was the story that cracked
open the door to, oh, this could

actually be something we do together.

That both of us end up feeling better
by the end, instead of one of us is out

of breath and the other feels crummy.

You know?

Yeah.

Like, oh, I made another being do
what I wanted, which it, it's not me,

you know, I'm not gonna say whether
it's good or bad, it's just not me.

And so that was the first story I
remember thinking, oh, there's a way

to do something with a horse, you know,
and have them feel good about being in

your company as opposed to, you know?

Yes, sir.

So I think that was the first one

Rupert Isaacson: when you
then began to work together.

I imagine that the volume of horses
that were suddenly and people that

were suddenly coming in front of
you probably accelerated a bit.

You've, you've got the success
of the book now, you're a team.

You can do, more people have heard of you.

So now stuff starts to happen
and you learn a lot more, right?

Because of all these different contexts,
human and equine, what would you say

in those early years where you
began to work together, were the

things that most leapt out at you
as a, as a team, as a pair go, oh

we see this over and over again.

And then also what
patterns did you begin to

evolve together that you could now
look back on and say, ah, right, yes.

That was sort of the time we've actually
kind of evolved this approach or this

framework in response to these things.

Just talk us through that a little bit.

'cause it's going to inform, I think, the
later questions, which is about things

that are, people are facing now, you
know, who are listening particularly in

the equine assisted programs and, and,
and how we can open up more options.

So, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Just, just what were the patterns that
you saw that people seemed to consistently

need over and over again, and what
did you see were the patterns of the

responses that you guys ended up evolving?

Crissi McDonald: Got it.

If you don't mind, I'll start.

Mark's got himself muted.

So I'll just start anyway.

Rupert Isaacson: Maybe on purpose.

I dunno, he's wise.

Crissi McDonald: So when I, when I
started working with Mark, I had gone

from a trainer who saw, I'm gonna say
30 to 40 horses and clients a year.

And that included cult starting riding,
trailer loading it was everything from,

so from maybe 30 or 40 people a year
to I'm gonna say between four and 500.

And then if we went to equine,
if we went to a trade show or,

you know, like Equant or Equine
Affair, that jumped into thousands.

Yeah.

And so me personally, the first
year that I started working,

we started doing clinics.

We were on the road two hundred and
fifty, two hundred sixty days a year.

We were doing 42 clinics a year.

Me personally, I was in overwhelm
because of the amount of horses

and people we were seeing.

And my own learning curve went
straight up just, just like a rocket.

So for me personally, you know, what
I relied on a lot was, was teaching.

But then at the end of the day,
being able to go to Mark and say,

okay, I saw this thing and it
felt like this needed to happen.

So I showed them this and it mostly
worked, but I feel like I'm missing

something and Mark will have
already worked with that person.

What we used to do is he would work
with the person, they would come to

me and they would have an extra hour
to kind of solidify their learning.

We only saw eight people a day, and that
was a four day clinic in the beginning.

So, you know, at first I was
reliant on the fact that he had

been ing a lot longer than I had.

I, I had gone from mostly backyard horse
people to you know, to all disciplines.

And I was familiar with all disciplines
and like Mark said, the principles,

it doesn't matter what saddle they're
working in, the principles are the same.

So yeah, for me, I would say initially
it was, it was the ability to take what

I saw and run it by Mark, who had had,
at that point, thousands more horses

and people under his belt than I had.

And and also just really enjoy being
able to go back and forth across the

country and see so many horses and people.

It was just a crash course in how to
recognize certain things, you know?

And, and if you're in long
enough and you see enough.

Patterns do start to emerge, right?

And it's not that you're, it's not you're
that you're designing your teaching

to the pattern, but you go, oh, okay,
here's the pattern I've seen before.

Here's what worked in the past.

Let's try this.

And if it doesn't work,
you try something else.

But that's, that was my impression.

So I think, you know, I, and then as
we've started the clinics, especially the

10 day clinics, I think we rely on each
other a lot for impressions of, you know,

how to help a horse and a person best.

It's different every time.

As you know, Rupert as well, you, you
can teach the same thing every time, but

the person in the horse are different.

And it makes that teaching just a
little bit different every time.

Absolutely.

So that's been very valuable, is to
develop a flexibility in my own teaching

instead of just, you know, do a, B, C.

Right.

There's a part of me

Crissi McDonald: that really likes
those kind of systems because then I

don't have to think, but it's, it's
not creative and it's not personalized.

Rupert Isaacson: But those patterns
that were showing up, were there

consistent issues, dilemmas that
people, and were showing up to get them?

And what would you say the ones that
just leap into your mind straight away?

Yeah.

We had a bunch of people and it was this.

Crissi McDonald: For a while we had a
bunch of people with Premarin horses,

and for people who aren't familiar
with Premarin horses, those are the

offspring of mares that they use.

They use mares urine to make hormone
replacement therapy for women.

It's called Premarin.

I don't know how it is now.

Yeah.

So we were seeing at the time,
and then there was this mo Yeah.

There was this movement
to adopt the babies out.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So,

Crissi McDonald: because the
babies were just like an after

effect, they just needed the urine.

So we saw a lot of Premarin horses for
a number of years, and it was really

interesting because for a while we'd see
horses who had been diagnosed with EPM,

and then for a while we saw horses who had
been barefoot, but maybe needed to choose.

And then we saw primer and horses, and
then now we seem to be in a stretch where

we're seeing a fair amount of mustangs.

So it, things go in waves.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But what were the, what were
the dilemmas that these Premarin

horses were, were bringing?

And I'm gonna ask you about
the, the, I'll let Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Ask Mark about that too.

A lot of them were, because they
don't have papers, you can't

verify, but a lot of them seem
to be inbred and unable to learn.

So the most common thing was,
is people saying, you know,

I show my horse this thing.

We do it for a week.

And I think I'm doing it in a way that
he's learning, and then I'll go back the

next day and it's like he's never done it.

Rupert Isaacson: Almost
like autism in horses.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

I'll let Mark pick it up from there.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, please do.

Mark.

Talk to us about this.

Mark Rashid: Well, back in the
eighties I had read a book on dogs

with that had been inbred and they
carried certain behaviors with them

and also physical traits as well.

And I had seen some horses with similar
behaviors and physical traits, balance

issues and and a variety of things.

And so I just, I just started asking
people about if the horse was registered

and if it was, we would look at the
papers and sure enough we would see

either inbreeding or line breeding.

And the most common is kind of
the textbook is is horses that

are unable to retain information.

So that's one of the, one of the big ones.

Interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Mark Rashid: From behavioral
issues, you know, really horses

that seem really, really frustrated,
defensive horses that are defensive.

Some horses are very aggressive.

Not to other horses
necessarily, but to people.

Hmm.

So there, there's a whole list of
things that, and behaviors that

we, that we that they will exhibit.

And, you know, we are working with Dr.

Steve Peters a lot here
in the last seven years.

And, and I talked with him at
length about this and, and there's

a ton of research on it now.

And one of the interesting things
about inbred horses is that depending

on how they are managed early
on, will determine whether or not

those genes get turned on or off.

And so there are, there are some
inbred horses out there that are world

champion reers or jumpers or whatever.

And then there's others that
you can't lead out of the pen.

You know, that literally will
spook at their own shadow.

And we have an inbred horse here
who's a great horse, great trail

horse, and but he's pretty quirky.

And our granddaughter rides him.

And he's a great, you know, really super
nice horse, but he's a little quirky,

you know, but the way he was handled
early on didn't, those genes didn't turn

on that caused all the major issues.

Now he does have some balance
issues and he can't canner.

And that's, as these guys get older,
those are some of the things that

start happening with, you start
seeing balance issues, you start

seeing lack of wanting to go past a,
a gate that they're comfortable in.

And Chrissy worked on seeing
if she couldn't get him to

canner for a couple of years.

He did initially, and then eventually
he just couldn't do it anymore.

So we almost like a kind of

Rupert Isaacson: dementia.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So when a horse
presents to you with this kind of almost

like autism-like symptoms associated
with the inbreeding what do you do?

Mark Rashid: Depends on the severity,

Rupert Isaacson: no doubt.

But in general,

Mark Rashid: If, if the horse is
unable to retain information, then

we usually recommend that they
just become a pasture ornament.

You know, just turn 'em out and pasture
if they can, or find a rescue that

can take 'em, because as long as you
allow them to be a horse, they're fine.

When we start to interact with them,
when humans start to ask them to

do things other than just being a
horse, when you add monkey stuff,

right?

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

That's when they really start to struggle.

Interesting.

And as far as being a, a riding horse
they can potentially be, be dangerous.

Yeah, sure.

Not because, not because they,
not because they're gonna be

dangerous as, as an animal.

It is just that their behavior
is gonna be unpredictable.

And so it's really important.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's say
it's not that extreme though.

And someone's just, you know, the
horse is clearly struggling, but

they, it seems that there's some
possibilities for some potential.

How do you go about helping the
horse to retain information?

Mark Rashid: If they can't retain it?

They can't retain it.

So it's not like you can fix that.

Rupert Isaacson: You, you can't
build neuroplasticity in the horse.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: No, no.

So it's, it is just the way it is.

But you

Rupert Isaacson: can in people.

So, so why not in horses?

Mark Rashid: I don't know.

You'd have to ask a
neurologist about that.

I,

Rupert Isaacson: I think
we need to go back to Dr.

Steven Peters.

It's an interesting, that's interesting.

It's intriguing to me because,
you know, I, I'm, I, can

Crissi McDonald: I throw
something in real quick?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, please do.

Crissi McDonald: So, the source that
we have, his name is Banjo, and for.

I don't, I wrote him in clinics for
five or six summers and when we got

him, he didn't know his lateral work.

So turn on the haunches,
turn on the forehand back up.

He didn't know any of that.

I worked on that consistently
for four years and every summer

I had to start at the beginning.

So when this compares to our other horses,
who I've spent just as much time with,

one of them I hadn't ridden in two years.

I got on her and she had all her moves.

Turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches
side, pass back up, very soft, no trouble,

but banjo every summer I had to say,
okay, this means turn on the forehand.

This means turn on the haunches.

And he could retain it as
long as we were doing it.

Okay.

Crissi McDonald: But it was always, there
was never any graduation in skill level.

Okay.

So it was always as though it was
the first time he was ever doing it.

And then the next summer would come
around and I'd have to do it again.

And knowing that he's in bread, it
didn't, you know, I just thought,

well, that this, we're meeting
now his capacity to do this skill.

If you wanna go down a trail, he's great.

Go over a log.

He stops.

Great.

He's like a goat.

He'll go anywhere.

But if you want refined
work, that's his ceiling.

So I just, I just expect that

Rupert Isaacson: do.

Yeah.

And you work within his parameters.

Yeah.

Yes.

This is interesting to me.

Do you think there's a lot of
people out there working with inbred

horses who dunno that they are?

Mark Rashid: We see, yes.

I wouldn't say we see one a clinic, but
we, but they, we see a bunch of 'em.

We see a bunch of them.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

developed in conjunction with Dr.

Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Do you think it's on the
increase or decrease or stable?

Mark Rashid: I've, I've,
that's a good question.

I, I would say that I've seen

probably more.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Mark Rashid: In the last five, six years.

Rupert Isaacson: What do
you attribute that to?

Mark Rashid: Backyard breeding.

Rupert Isaacson: But people have
always backyard bred, so Yeah.

Why now?

Or do you think there's just more of
it or about the backyard breeding?

I, you know,

Mark Rashid: I don't know.

I just don't know.

I mean, it could be a
lot of pasture breeding.

We've seen a lot of rescue horses that
were brought in and they, you know,

they were turned out, you know, early
on with, you know, brothers and sisters

and mothers and and sons and so you
get a lot of that kind of thing, right.

Because there's no new

Rupert Isaacson: stallion coming in and.

Mark Rashid: Right.

And we're seeing a lot of it Right.

In the in the Mustang world as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that
was gonna be my next question.

Okay.

This is intriguing to me, and
I've actually got a horse that

I'm working with right now who
I'm being suspecting this of.

I'm working actually at a distance.

But the horse seems

impossibly spooky.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Given

all the good training and conditioning
he gets, and I know he does.

I don't actually train
him on hands on myself.

It's just a long distance thing I'm doing.

But I, I know the person and I know
everything that they're doing is great,

and the horse spooks and bolts out of
the blue consistently, and then you can

recondition him, say, okay, oh, it's
this thing that you were afraid of.

Let's go and look at this.

And then he, oh, yeah, that's great.

Okay.

And then three, four months go
by and he'll do it again as if he

hadn't ever seen that thing.

And in a way that is so sort
of genuine that you know it,

he's not just messing with you.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And I was, you
know, in my mind I was going, mm.

And then I, I found out that he's
from a very particular herd which

has a, a very particular gene pool.

But then I was thinking,
but could it be in breeding?

Because you've, you've still
always got some stallions gonna

wander over the hill, right.

And, you know, introduce something new.

So it doesn't take, do you think
this shows up in stallions given

that in, in, in Mustangs, given that
they have access to outside genetics?

Mark Rashid: Oh, that's
the way they're gathered.

Ah, go on.

Yeah, so what ends up happening is
they pull in all of these families and

then they pull out the, what you might
call the most desirable, and then they

kick the rest out and they, you, they
may be turning brothers and sisters

out, they fathers and daughters out.

And but we, in fact, we just worked
with one last summer that, here

here's a really good example.

So this horse they got this Mustang
when he was when he was I think a

year old, a year and a half old.

They got him and the
woman started him herself.

And they actually, she didn't,
she had never started a horse

before and they worked together.

She brought him when he was three, I
believe, to, to one of our clinics.

And they were struggling with some basic
stuff, but it wasn't anything major.

We kind of got things lined out.

She started riding him and doing
some pretty cool stuff with

him, going out, camping with him
and doing that kind of thing.

And then she all of a sudden outta the
blue last year I think, or the year

before he started bolting, when she
would get on and or she'd be riding

along and he would start to go a little
faster on the trail and pretty soon

he would bolt just out of the blue.

No, no rhyme or reason to it.

Rupert Isaacson: This pretty
much describes the horse Yeah.

That I'm, yeah.

Talking about.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: So then what happened
was she brought the horse to

one of our instructors and, and
they started working together.

And it took a long time, a year to
get him to where he wasn't bolting

anymore off the mounting block.

And, and he was still pretty quirky
and, you know, just handling him and,

you know, he would bite at people and
just out of the blue, just interesting.

Which, you know, his, his owners
said they, he had never done that

before, but all of a sudden now he's
exhibiting that kind of behavior and

anyway, so it, it looked like they
had the mounting thing taken care of.

And last summer, the, the owners came.

And they were gonna work with him.

And the, her, the husband got on
this horse and he walked around.

He was pretty okay.

The very next day he went to put his
foot in a stir up and the horse bolted.

And I had pretty much suspected before
that, that this was an inbred situation.

And so I, you know, that was,
and there were some other things,

some other indicators as well.

But the interesting thing was they
had their dentist came in and did

some work with on his teeth, and
she said this is independently that

that his mouth was indicative of
a horse that was inbred because of

the way the, the jaw was formed.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Mark Rashid: So what was the signs

Rupert Isaacson: out of interest?

What did, did, do you
remember what she pointed out?

That

Mark Rashid: narrow, a narrow jaw and
deformation of some of the molars and

some of the other teeth that aren't
at the, at the correct angle, you

know, that you really have to work to
get them at a, at the correct angle.

But it's how the, how the teeth
are growing, not that somebody

did, did bad dental work.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: So

Rupert Isaacson: this is really revealing.

And I guess this, this is why.

You know, going back to my
question about what, why can't

we get some neuroplasticity?

But I think you sort of answered
that one, Chrissy, by saying,

well, some of them actually yes.

Within certain parameters.

Like, okay, I might always have to
start from scratch when it's the lateral

work, but as a trail horse, okay.

Or a more extreme version as you
are describing, and this horse that

I have been dealing with lately
where it's now just dangerous.

And if there's neuroplasticity, it
seems to be fleeting, and then mm-hmm.

It might be good for a while, but you
can never tell when it might reappear.

The question that comes up in my mind, I
had no idea the podcast is gonna go this

way, but I think anyone who's running
equine programs really needs to be

aware of this, particularly in the USA
because the horses come in from exactly

these kinds of donation points, right?

People often find horses that they
can't quite work with or whatever.

Or it was the, you know, horses
from the urine thing that were

often coming on the market.

And I had a few of those when I was
in the States, and some of them were

grand, some of them were fantastic.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Made great horses and, you
know, but I guess they, it

was a, a bit of a crapshoot.

But I, I was just thinking in my mind,
well, in England we don't have that

problem and we have a lot of Mustangs.

People always forget that.

What are the English Mustangs?

Every wild pony breed in
the uk, and there's mm-hmm.

12 or or more of them has a wild
population that lives completely

wild on the hill, including there's
a certain amount of winter kill that,

you know, the Welsh ponies, the foul
ponies, the ex mos, the Dartmore, the

Highlands, the Dales, the, you name
it, there's a wild population to these,

the new forests, and they do roundups.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And of course they select
what they want and send the rest back.

But the way they muster them,
you're right, is very different.

They tend to pre-select more or
less what they'd like to muster.

And then they're not gonna be
turned out or held in pens where

those family groups are gonna end
up somehow mating with each other.

It's

only a certain amount of them are
brought in from the open hill that

have been to some degree preselected.

And it's an ancient practice.

It goes back, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Well over, over 2000 years or whatever.

So people have certain commoners rights
to go and do that and blah, blah, blah.

So the whole thing is quite selective.

And it sounds like what you're saying
with the Mustangs is it's, and that,

and perhaps with the Mustangs, it
was at a certain point like that, but

it's become somewhat industrialized.

Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And.

Mark Rashid: I don't
think it's intentional.

Yeah.

Interesting.

It's not, what they're doing
isn't, I don't think intentional.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

The

Mark Rashid: way, the way that that
happens, I know a lot of folks in

that, that in that program and the,
and the people who actually gather

and contrary to popular belief,
these people are really conscientious

mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: About trying
not to hurt the horses.

Now there's people who would argue against
that, but the people that I know that are,

that are involved in that program really
do have the horse's best interest in mind.

It just, the way that the program
is set up, especially now it's

just so indiscriminate that
that's kind of what happens.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you, have you
noticed the pro the, this problem coming

from any particular mustang herds?

Do any spring to mind

Mark Rashid: it?

No, it really is, it's
pretty hit and miss.

It really is.

Okay.

We've seen them from
all over the west that

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: You know, you get some
from this herd and they're great

and, and then, you know, the next
year you get some from the same herd

and it's, it's such a crapshoot.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, one of my best horses
was a Mustang, but he, he started

life exactly as you'd had described
Uncatchable and this on that, but then.

Turn out fantastic.

Mark Rashid: You know, pretty quick
when they start making connections

about what it is that we're asking
and how they can do the thing.

Whether or not you're gonna have
a long term problem or you're

gonna have a long term horse yes.

That you can, that you can do
some really nice work with.

Rupert Isaacson: The work that I
do, obviously with neuroplasticity

in humans, with horses started with
autism, but now it, you know mm-hmm.

It's more ubiquitous.

I'm very much with you on this idea
that you must follow the individual.

So every, every program we have,
we have three main programs.

It's predicated on follow the child
and so therefore follow the horse in

the preparation of that has to happen.

However, at the same time, we do need
to be able to produce horses that

have enough muscle on the top line to
take an adult with a child together.

If the child is young, that can collect
because with collection, the hip rocking

for the human on top produces oxytocin.

Oxytocin is communication.

Mm.

Communication is what we're after.

And that was how my son, you
know, became verbal on the horse.

And then we realized that was going on.

So, oh gosh, okay.

We could replicate that.

And then the neuroplasticity came
on top of that, the BDNF, the

brain derived neurotrophic factor.

So we do have to actually
work to a system.

We work to an, a very, very old, old
masters classical system of in hand work

to get the horse to really understand
before you ever get on his back, how

to place those hind legs underneath.

So it's just easy for them so that
by the time you do get up there,

the horse kind of already knows.

And then you have a person on
the ground and a person on top.

So the person on the ground does the thing
the horse already knows, and then the

person on top does the new thing, the,
the rider's aid and the horse kinda goes,

oh, these two things mean the same thing.

Okay, that's cool.

I accept, and you get this
smoother learning curve.

So we absolutely use a, a system
that's very old and at the same

time, we are not ever going to not
tweak that system depending on the

individual horse in front of us.

Similarly, with the way we are working
with kids, we're going to set up the

right environment with no hopefully
bad sensory triggers, hopefully.

An asshole free environment, so the
kid isn't feeling threatened by humans.

So we're not triggering the amygdala if
possible, you know, and then from their

work on the sensory issues, and then from
that to the back riding for the oxytocin.

And then from there we just
follow them wherever it goes.

So we are always treading this line
between SOS system and anarchy.

And that what we've realized
is you absolutely need both.

What I see a lot of in both
the horse training and in the

therapy world is extremism.

So either rigidity in a system, whether
it's with horses or humans, like

behavioralism with humans, could come
under that as well, which involves

quite a lot of coercion and fear,
frankly, and nothing at all, which in

some cases could work, but also won't
with in many cases because people, the

brains like the brain like structure.

And the same with, with, with, with horse
people that sometimes it's, you know,

as you said, Chrissy, you know, very,
very rigid, somewhat fear based, you

know, training things that kind of get
results, but not in a way that brings joy.

And people then say, well, I'm gonna
throw all of that out the window.

And then you get a horse that's
kind of bored, unemployed.

And one of the things that I found
is, is often the biggest problem with

horses that come to me when I'm wearing
my horse training hat, or kids when

I'm wearing my kid hat, is boredom.

Often there's this kind of
chronic, just lack of purpose.

And then you go see a good cow horse
who absolutely knows what they're

doing and they're like, they're happy.

Or a good hunting horse that really
knows what it's in, they're kind of

happy or a very good therapy horse
that really knows what it's in.

They're kind of happy.

But the ones that are kind
of, why, why am I here?

What am I doing?

You know?

And of course, within
herds there are structures.

They're fluid, they're not rigid, but
there are structures within human herds.

There are structures.

I've been lucky enough to live
with hunters and gatherers.

So how do you, but they're fluid.

Talk to us about this.

'cause it's so easy in these conversations
to sound like one is coming down in

one extreme or the other extreme as
if one is reacting to negative things.

Does that make sense?

Rather than looking for the center,
the eye of that paradox, how do you

guys find the eye of that paradox
between structure and anarchy?

Do you wanna lead with that one,
Chrissy, and then we'll go to Mark?

Crissi McDonald: Sure.

The first thing that comes to mind is we
see a lot of horses and a lot of people

who are carrying, carrying muscle tension.

So when we're taught to ride,
especially if we're taught to ride

traditionally, it's shoulders back.

Heels down, open your chest,
you know, stiffen your spine.

Right.

That I had equitation lessons for years.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Equitation.

And we do this, we'll do that
funny bump thing with your butt.

Yeah, yeah,

Crissi McDonald: yeah, yeah.

Stick out your butt, stick
out your chest, right?

Yeah.

All these things.

Right.

Well, what, what we're doing is
we're asking the person to be stiff.

Mm-hmm.

And

Crissi McDonald: then if you add
in a little fear, now you have

internal tension, external tension.

Same thing with the horse in our search
to maybe create some structure for the

horse, we actually build in tension.

So inadvertently we're telling the horse,
in order to do this skill, let's say

lower the head or go in collection, we
have interpreted that, not in all cases,

because I know people such as yourself
are looking at something different.

But in some cases, whether it's Western
or English or whatever we say, when

you put your head down, I want you to
tense all the muscles in your neck.

Yeah.

Okay.

Crissi McDonald: We inadvertently say that
we don't mean to make the horse tense.

So when, so I would say out of 10
people who come to a clinic, probably

eight of them, them and their horses
are carrying too much tension,

muscle tension, and internal tension.

Okay.

So there's a pattern

Rupert Isaacson: tension.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you can't separate two, right?

Yeah, it's true.

Crissi McDonald: Right.

So there's, okay.

I've seen that pattern before.

So with one person.

Horse, we might talk a lot about breathing
because neither of them are breathing.

Mm.

Crissi McDonald: With another
person in horse, we might have to

say, all right, let's just show
you guys how to let go of tension.

Which means one of us will take the
reins and hold the reins and the rider

will show us the tension they have on
the reins, and then we can help the

rider by saying, that's actually a lot.

Can you cut that in half?

Okay.

Now try relaxing your shoulders.

You know, we can walk them through.

So there's the pattern, muscle
tension, horse and rider,

internal tension, horse and rider.

But the way that we talk to each
horse and rider is always different.

We're not always gonna say to every,
well, we do say breathe to a lot of

riders, but some horses may not need
to be shown how to let go of tension.

Right.

Crissi McDonald: The same way
every other horse has meaning.

We put that our hands on the reins
and we hold pressure until they give.

Right?

That's the watered down
super simple version.

It may be that the horse is carrying more
internal tension than muscle tension.

So how do we help that horse feel safe?

Mm-hmm.

That's

Crissi McDonald: different than
helping a horse understand the skill

of when I feel pressure I give to it.

It's, they're two different things,
but they have the same presentation.

Is that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
it makes perfect sense.

It's a,

Crissi McDonald: yeah.

Yeah.

I'll let Mark chime in.

Mark Rashid: I think a big part of what
we do, and this, this also comes from

my martial arts background, is that

for me, the idea is to only use the amount
of muscle you need to use in order to do

the job you're asking your body to do.

Same thing with a horse.

Can we, can we just use the muscle
we need to use in order to do the

job we're asking the horse to do.

More times than not, I mean, we,
going through our day, we often

are using way more muscle than we
need to use to do simple things.

Picking up the, you know, the teacup off
the, off the table, or putting the cup

back down on the table where you hear a
kabang, you know, or closing the door.

Opening the door,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, we
use, and that could be informed

by emotion as well, right?

Mark Rashid: Absolutely.

Yeah.

And because we aren't aware that that's,
we're going through our life like that,

you know, we're we, and when it comes
to working with horses, you know, we,

we go through our daily activities like
a lumberjack, and then, and then we

wanna be soft when we get to our horse.

And it doesn't work that way, you know,
we, it's about, for me, it's about how do

we help the individual become aware of.

Maybe any physical or emotional
tension that they're carrying,

and then take that into their day.

Take that softness or internal softness
or internal awareness, take it into

their day where they could be practicing
at 24 or 23 hours of the day, and

then they can take it to their horse.

You know?

Then then riding with softness is easy
when you, when you're practicing it all

day long and everything that you do.

We had a, a, an instructor, one of our
instructors actually was at Chrissy's

Dojo and he was retiring and I think
he was, I, I think he was, he had

been training for 40 years and he was
gonna retire as a, as an instructor.

And we were at his last class and he said,
you know, been training for 40 years.

I spent the, the first 10 years
learning all the technique I needed

that I would need to know in order
to do this, be an instructor.

And I spent the last 30 years trying
to figure out how not to use it.

And that really stuck with me.

And that's, which is one of the reasons
we focus so much on, on principles,

technique is really important.

You gotta have it, you
know, but at some point.

The goal, at least for me, is how can
I transcend that technique and do it

in a more thoughtful feel-based way to
get the job done, whether it's with a

person or whether it's with a horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's bring it to people.

So when I'm let's say we're doing
horse boy method session, right?

And a person shows up, kid shows up, can
be an adult, and we think we're gonna

work this way, perhaps with a horse.

And the person very quickly shows they're
not interested in the horse at all.

So we immediately would then
switch from horse point method

to what we call movement method.

No problem.

We've just got a bazillion
other things to do.

So we have to be really, really obsessive
about our horse preparation and willing

to abandon the horse in two seconds
if that's not where the person's at.

And therefore I need to know what
that person's actually interested in.

So I can prepare a little bit.

It's Mark Rashid coming.

I know he likes Akido.

I know, don't know from Akido.

So I've got to get on Wikipedia and,
and to have accommodation about Akido

and then be talking the language
to some degree of Martin Rashid

when he comes in so that we could
then maybe go somewhere from that.

But what I'm really after is
communication and neuroplasticity,

whether it's coming with a horse or not.

You guys are also working
with many other things.

So you are working with martial arts
in particular, particularly Aikido.

And it was intriguing to me back
earlier in the podcast you said, mark

to find that softness you had to go
to the world, world of martial arts.

So I haven't been in the
world of martial arts site.

You've been in the worship world of
martial arts, but I've been a bit in

the world of martial arts myself and I
didn't always encounter softness there.

So

Mark Rashid: not all, not
all martial arts are soft.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, exactly.

And

Mark Rashid: aikido
doesn't have to be soft.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, exactly.

Not all Aikido people
I've met have been soft.

Right.

So, although more than
others, I would say.

But how was it that you, a thought to
go to martial arts to look for softness?

That's interesting.

Perhaps counterintuitive.

And then b, how did you find that?

Softness Being able to be translated
across to the horse thing because

when you do, people are doing the
horse thing, as you were saying,

Chrissy, people are a bit scared.

You know, you're up there, you're
often being judged too 'cause

you're, you know, in a clinic or
you are in a training situation.

So there's a bit of fear in
that, let alone the fear of

falling off and getting killed.

So, you know, how did you, why did you
think to go to the world of martial arts.

For softness.

And then once having found that softness,
how did you feel confident that you

could bring that softness across to this
slightly fearful situation with horses?

Mark Rashid: I didn't actually
think about going to martial arts.

One of my students suggested it.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

He and why, why did they suggest it?

Mark Rashid: Well, I was working with
a guy, so we get mostly women in our

clinics, and I was working, I was doing
a clinic in Tennessee, and we had one

guy there who, he was writing a, a
Pasadena or Peruvian, one or the other,

and he was just having a heck of a time.

He just, this horse was trying as hard
as he could to get along with, with

what this guy was asking him to do.

But there was so much conflict
going on between the two of 'em.

And finally I just stopped him and I said,
listen, everything that you want is here.

It's right here.

You've got all the energy,
everything that you need, everything

that you want is in this horse.

All you have to do is blend with the
energy and then give it some direction.

And I said, I, I know it sounds like
Zen horseback riding, but it's not, you

know, it's just, it's just about getting
together with him so that the two of you

are doing the same thing at the same time.

Right now your horse is doing one
thing and you're doing something else.

How can we bring those
two things together?

Well, he, he was looking at me
like, you know, like I was an

idiot or something, you know?

And because we don't get
you both look at me that

Rupert Isaacson: way.

Yeah, I

Mark Rashid: know.

I, I, I'm used to it.

And that's how I, that's how
I noticed it to begin with.

Right.

So, but I, because we don't get,
and very many men, I thought,

man, I got, I'm losing this guy.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Rashid: So I just kept talking, you
know, and finally I just said everything

I thought to say and I said, do you,
do you understand what I'm saying?

And he said, yeah, I understand
perfectly what you're saying.

And he went out and did it.

I mean, it was like somebody
flipped a switch and the two

of 'em were on the same page.

And after the ride he came up to me and
he said do you, do you train in I keto?

And I said, no, I don't, I don't, I
didn't really even know what it was.

And he said, well, I'm an I keto
instructor, and what you're teaching

in your horsemanship is I keto.

And it just so happens that one of
the top Aikido masters in the world

lives about 45 minutes away from us.

And he kept saying,
you need to go see him.

You need to go work with him.

And anyway, that's how and it turns
out that here in town, we, we live

in a town of about 7,000 people.

There was a really good, and
still is, in fact, I just trained

with him last Thursday night.

Amazing Aikido instructor.

And so I went to him and I've
been training with him ever since.

And so, and then how we bridged that gap
was I, I could see the, I could see the,

the implications from the internal aspects
of the art and the softness part of it.

I mean, it just crossed over
perfectly into horsemanship.

And so I started showing people during
clinics some of those concepts and

people got more and more interested.

And finally about 16 years ago, we
developed ito, which is basically

Aikido for horsemen, so that
you don't have to have any, any

martial arts experience at all.

And you can come in and, and
experience what we're talking about.

Rupert Isaacson: How do I spell that?

Ito

Mark Rashid: A-I-B-A-D-O-E-A.

B-O-A-A-I.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Mark Rashid: BA,

Rupert Isaacson: BA.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: DOI.

Rupert Isaacson: Babe, I iaba.

Mark Rashid: I

Rupert Isaacson: do.

The D ibo.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

And the what, what's the
B and the A standing for,

Mark Rashid: IBO is basically
what it, what it means depending

on the kanji that you use.

It either means a way of
being with horses Okay.

Or for the love of the horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Mark Rashid: And so the kgi that we
use is for the love of the horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think despite
that man's background in Aikido, that

he, it hadn't occurred to him to blend
with the horse's energy in that way

Mark Rashid: because he had
been taught something else

when it came to horsemanship.

Okay.

He had been following some instructors,
some big name instructors, who were

basically saying that, you know, that this
is how you do it when it comes to horses.

And so he just, he never made
the connection between the two.

Okay.

Because he had been taught that, you know,
it's kinda like with what Chrissy was

saying earlier, where the work that she
was doing, you know, it didn't feel right

and it, and it didn't feel right to this
guy, but he's not, he doesn't know as much

about horses as these other people did.

So he was.

He didn't rely on his instincts,
he just went the other direction.

Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting,
the human brain, isn't it?

Isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean we've, we've all done this, but
it's always intriguing, you know, how

people find their, navigate these things.

You know, Chrissy, you, you, you do a lot
with photography and how do you use that?

It's, it's an intriguing thing to me at
the moment because I use it sometimes

with tracking with getting people
to notice stuff about nature, right?

Just literally take a picture and
let's look at how many species

are on there or what's it of, or
what is that leaf or whatever.

I thought I was very original.

And then just was doing a podcast
about a week ago with an amazing

woman called Emma Hutchinson who runs
something called Horseback UK up in the

highlands of Scotland, mostly working
with trauma, and they do a ton with

photography and nature photography for
getting people into the present moment.

And she's taken it, of course,
much, much further than I have.

But it's now, it's intriguing to me.

And I I wonder how you are using visual
arts to help people with themselves.

Their horses and their horse, human

organism.

Crissi McDonald: Well, that's, that's
very interesting because I had not

contemplated sharing it in a clinic
situation because we're focused

on the horsemanship part of it.

And also the internal
part of it for people.

But the way that, you know, I've
been taking photographs since I

was, I won a camera, one of the
very few lotteries I've ever won.

I won a little 35 milli camera.

This is when film was still being used.

And I, so I've been taking
pictures since I was 12.

And I personally use it as a
way to keep a connection with

the creative part of myself.

So I don't get into the, you know,
the analytical system part of the

brain, which is also very useful,
but it's, it's not the whole picture.

So I tend to be high anxiety and
my photography practice is to help

me reconnect with my creativity in
order to lower the anxious response.

So as an instructor, I want
to live what I'm teaching.

That's very important to me,
that I don't just tell someone.

You know, I don't say to someone,
well, if you did this and this, your

anxiety might be a little lower.

It's really important to me that
if I have something in me that is

challenging me, that I find ways
to work with it and understand it.

And so that's what photography has
been for me, is, is walking my talk.

Basically.

I love the idea of connecting it to
how people see the world, because when

you look through a lens, when you're,
when you have an actual camera, where

you're looking through a lens, not
just a phone, it's a much different

way of looking at the world, and you
have to make adjustments in order to

get what you're seeing in your head to
match what comes out on the picture.

And I think that's,
that's really intriguing.

I'm glad people, I'm thrilled that
you're doing that and other people are

doing that because visual arts are very,
they're engaging in differently ways.

Perspective taking.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: Perspective
taking is brain building.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

Yes,

Crissi McDonald: yes.

So I use it personally.

I don't, I haven't thought
about extrapolating it out.

Rupert Isaacson: I'd be intrigued
to see what you did with it

if you do extrapolate it out.

I, I, mm-hmm.

If you were to take a, a test case
of a clinic and just experiment,

I'd be very, with the pe,
with yourself and with others.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: In whatever way.

It's, you know, I'd be very, very.

Interested to see what comes out
of what you guys do with that.

Crissi McDonald: That might be
a whole different type of clinic

format that might be like a three day
clinic exploring this aspect of it.

Mm.

That's a really good idea.

Thank you.

Rupert?

Rupert Isaacson: I want 30%, I mean 50.

Sorry.

Crissi McDonald: Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Four, well, 45.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Talk to my boss.

That's alright.

Okay.

if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

The, the, the other thing that I know is
a really big part of your lives is music.

And again this is so interesting 'cause
music, as we know, to get coherence out of

an instrument, there has to be structure.

I mean, not always, but it sure helps.

It's very difficult to shred on
a guitar if you're not having got

a base, a basis to shred from.

And at the same time, you can
also completely channel the

collective unconscious as well.

How do you a, find music informs
better horse and human ship

in yourselves?

And how do you bring that, if you do
bring that into your interactions with

the people and horses that come to you?

Do you wanna kick off with that one Mark?

Mark Rashid: Well for me
everything is connected.

So, when I'm building
guitars, for instance,

I will.

The finished product begins with just
a slab of wood, basically, and the

way that you shape the wood and the
thickness that you have, and the type of

bracing you put in the guitar, and how
you shape the braces and all of that.

And you're, you're constantly
checking every step of the way.

And you never know how this
guitar is gonna sound until you

string it up for the first time.

But everything that you do from the
beginning of, of, you know, getting

a slab of wood to stringing the
guitar, everything is about what is

this gonna sound like when it's done?

And every part that you shape has to
fit into another part, and it has to

fit pretty exactly in order for it
to be the instrument that you want.

And so, I, I look at my
horsemanship in the same way

that we're building a foundation.

And if we skip any part of this, this
thing isn't gonna play very well.

Or it may not sound very good

and every step along the way,
the guitar maybe doesn't look

good when you're building.

Right.

And because, you know, it hasn't been
sanded yet, or, you know, we haven't

shaped this part, or we didn't get the
binding on just right, and we're gonna

have to maybe take it off and do it again.

But the whole point is that in
order for this guitar to play

well and sound good every step of
the way, we have to be mindful.

And so by the time we actually play
the guitar, and for me, I'm self-taught

and I actually had a head, head injury
back in the early 1990s, and I en

and I ended up having to learn how
to play the guitar all over again.

And that among other things that
caused some problems for me.

But but again, it's about

when you're learning how to play.

I think the mistake that a lot of people
make, and the same thing with horsemanship

is that when you're learning how to
play, if you don't hit the right note

and you keep going, that wrong note
is gonna still be in that, that's what

you, you just created that pathway.

You put the wrong note in the pathway.

If you get to that note and it's
not the right one and you stop.

You put the right note in and then you
go back and play all the way to that

note and it's the right note, and then
you keep going, then that will go in.

So the whole, it's, it's exactly
the same thing that we want

to do with our horsemanship.

We wanna get it as, as correct as we can.

So that that's what's going.

So when we're teaching a horse something,
we don't necessarily want it to be

perfect, but we want it to be pretty
close so that the horse knows that

that search that they were doing for,
to get to the answer is in the right

direction and then we can build on it.

So, you know, horsemanship so
often is about looking for the

bad that the horse is doing so we
can fix it instead of looking for

the good so we can build on it.

And so what we are trying to do is
find the good in the people and in the

horses so that we can build on it and
then you can make your music right.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's funny, there's, there's
two things that leap to mind.

The first thing what you're saying,
looking for what's right someone gave

me a really great piece of advice
about leadership and they said,

catch people doing something right.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: I was like, oh my god.

Yeah, of course.

You know, the other thing is when you're
talking about leading up to that note,

I'm also self-taught on the guitar.

And so I've.

Definitely put those
wrong note pathways in.

And what I find is that, as you say,
but you just, you just explained it very

well, if you allow yourself to pause,

put in that note as an isolated
note, regroup, come back to there.

You might have to pause again.

You might have to pause
again several times.

So you will be dealing with the
frustration of, I can't play the melody

as long as that is one's desire,

I can't do the exercise
on the horse or whatever.

Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Rather than saying,
I'm playing around with the concepts

of this exercise on the horse, and up
until this point I'm fairly comfortable,

then it will help, it helps me if I
can pause and I might have to pause

quite a few times, but this idea of
allowing yourself and the horse to stop,

I I've realized more and more and more
the absolute necessity of this, but

it wasn't what I was brought up with.

And, and it can be so difficult when
you're working with instructors because

the instructor, of course, actually in
good faith feels that they have to give

you your money's worth and help you
get through and achieve that exercise.

So maybe it's a clunky shoulders
in or a, as you say, with a lot

of tension, whatever it is, it's
just got a lot of tension in it.

And so, or it breaks down
completely, neither of which is

what we're actually looking for.

But the rider feels, well, I
can't pause, I can't advocate

for myself to ask for this pause.

Maybe I don't even know in my mind that
I need, that the horse is just going,

well, horses might be nice, but that's not
an option that's ever been on my table.

And there's this idea that
we must ride through it.

We must keep going.

And so talk to me a little bit about
the value of stopping and regrouping

and pausing, because I do think this
is something that bears a little

bit of conversation and this idea
of sort of letting yourself and the

horse off the hook and perhaps the
person you're working with rather

than constantly being on the hook.

But that, again, it's not a, it's not
an extreme thing that being off the hook

means you abandoned the whole thing.

No, no.

But we, we realize that
sometimes we have to stop and

rest on the way up the mountain.

So, Chrissy, talk, talk to us about this.

You must, you, you must
encounter this a lot.

With yourself and with people you're
working, particularly as you, you're

self described as you know, with anxiety.

Mm-hmm.

And as we know with anxiety, often
comes a certain adrenaline and then

a desire to kind of rush through,
like a horse that's intimidated by

jumping will rush the fence to kind
of get it over with to some degree.

And we, we have this human
response as well in us.

Mm-hmm.

So talk to me about the other slow
down, the pauses, the regroup.

Crissi McDonald: As an instructor, if
someone asks me a question, I say, let's

say my horse isn't backing up very well.

Okay.

So we take a look at that and everything
is tight and the horse isn't backing up.

The person in their mind has a picture
of the horse going backwards, right?

Until they're asked to stop,
just back, back, back, back,

back, back, back, back, back.

But that's the goal.

And what I see a lot is as, as people,
we are so goal oriented that we wanna

start with the goal instead of, like
you were talking about, there's this

piece right here that needs to be in
place before I can get to that goal.

Matter of fact, there's about 15 or 20
pieces, and the value of the pause is, is

that in teaching the backup, we can look
at that worsen rider and say, okay, the

very first piece we need is relaxation.

It doesn't matter if the
feet move, it doesn't matter.

But what we're seeing is the person
has an idea, let's back up, and

then everything in the person tenses
and then the horse tenses behind.

Okay.

So for that horse and rider, it might
be, can we relax as our very first step?

The pause comes as a way to
tell the horse, yes, I'm looking

for relaxation in the movement.

Right?

So that's the value of the pause when it
comes to people, the value of the pause.

As, as an instructor, what I see is if
we offer information and let people work

through it at their own pace, they're
likely to retain it rather than forget it.

And as it is in an hour long lesson,
we may only remember 20% on a good day.

Yeah.

So there's no, there's, mark has this
saying, which I love he said, people

don't care how much, you know, they
just want to know if you can help them.

And I, I told him, I'm always so grateful
that they, that he doesn't say, they just

wanna know how much you care, because
that's, it's a little too hallmark for me.

But I really like that, that, you know,
it doesn't matter how much we know, how

much experience we have, what matters
when people come to us for help is that

we have something that can help them.

And so this person doesn't need to
know about the hours I spent studying

brain science in order to offer
them the one piece of information

that will help them make a change.

I.

They don't need to know that.

They don't need to know
the books I've read.

They all they need is, let's try this.

And then I shut up so they can do it.

So I'm not constantly bombarding
them with information.

And when you said that as instructors,
we wanna give them their money's

worth, there's absolutely that part.

And if we teach a certain way, they will
naturally get what they're coming for.

You know, it's, it's, they're
not paying for everything.

I know they're paying for
help for their own challenge.

So I always, I always think of pause
as a is, you know, it's a gift really,

because we have no pauses in our culture.

Everything is 24 7 full on fast.

We have to create the pauses ourself.

And so pausing as an
instructor is a practice.

And then being able to also offer
myself that is another practice.

Same principle, different, different uses

Rupert Isaacson: in all of our programs,
we have a series of guidelines and one

of them is eight and one of them is time
for innovation, which is really pausing.

And you, we really should
call it time for myelination.

Yeah.

To pause and allow the
brain to, you know, as Dr.

Peters would say, by the way,
listeners, if you haven't

listened to the podcast with Dr.

Stephen Peters, get your ears
asses onto that because he's

just the most fascinating man.

Neuroscientist, neurologist.

Yeah.

Neurosurgeon and horseman and autistic.

You, you cannot not listen to this man.

He's amazing.

But, you know, as he would say, those
pauses give you your brain a chance,

those new neurons to myelinate to
get the fatty tissue, a chance to

grow around the, the new connection
to make it stable, not fragile.

And this requires, yeah.

A pause.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Sorry,

Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.

The,

Crissi McDonald: the thing that
also, when you said that, that I

kind of pinged off of too, is that
a pause, I think subconsciously

a pause allows us to feel safe.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: Because
we're not, it's the mm-hmm.

It's not the absence of presence,
but it's the absence of pressure.

So I don't have the pressure
of listening to someone tell me

the next piece of information.

Right.

So our nervous system, I
think with pauses, this is

what I've noticed for myself.

I have no scientific
basis to, to base this on.

But what I've noticed in myself and
with students and horses is that putting

a pause in allows for us all to come
down, to settle, to get grounded.

Speed.

Unless you're skilled at speed,
speed builds in tension and anxiety

unless you practice that way.

That's not always the case.

But a lot of times we, we go fast
without knowing what we're doing.

And I think that drives up anxiety.

So if you have someone, or if you
make it a practice in your life

to find the pauses, it's a, it's
an internal practice as well.

It, it's not just for the brain, right?

It's also for the how we feel inside.

Right?

Rupert Isaacson: Because stress
actually drains your tank.

Right?

I mean it's, it's, it's a neurotoxin with
a cortisol grate, but also it takes a vast

amount of energy to be both on the gas
pedal and on the brake at the same time.

And we can't not have that in life,
but we probably only have a certain

amount of those moments in us.

And do you think it's perhaps true
that our subconscious knows this,

maybe the horse subconscious knows
this and knows that a depletion of

energy, therefore beyond a certain
point means actual lack of survival?

So your point about feeling safe
means I will survive Feeling unsafe

means this exercise might kill me
because it's now the equation of

the energy that it's taking versus.

What it might give me back
has, has, has gone upside down.

And perhaps in our site, in
our subconscious, we know this

because we're hunter gatherers.

We know we can only expend a
certain amount of energy on the

hunt for food before it kills us.

Similarly, horses must know this.

Deep down there's, if you are, if
you are expending energy to get to

water or grazing or whatever, only
a, a certain amount of energy is

going to be good in that equation.

And beyond that, not good.

And then you might be in that risk zone
at the end of the winter or something, and

you, you do realize perhaps you might die.

So we don't want to tap into that.

It's very interesting.

Do, do you feel, mark, do you feel that
this, this softness that you're talking

about and the the, does it and the
foundation, does it really come down

to instilling a sense of safety?

Mark Rashid: Definitely.

That's, that's the whole point of all
of it is you know, with, it's like,

Chrissy was talking about with, you
know, the PO putting the pauses in.

One of the things that I've gotten
in the habit of doing almost

unconsciously with students.

I will, I will offer some information,
and then I'll let them go do it.

And if I need to offer more
information, I'll ask them to

stop so that we can talk about it.

And then they can go do their thing.

And I might talk to people in the,
you know, the auditors and almost

completely ignore, you know, I'm
watching the writer, but I may, I'm,

they know I'm talking to the auditors.

So that takes the pressure off of them
to be able to just focus on what they

want to do or how they want to do it.

And when I, if I feel like I
need to offer more information,

I'll ask 'em to stop again.

And, you know, and there's, for
me, I, I, I've, I don't know

that I've ever told anybody that
they've done it something wrong.

And even when somebody will say,
I've, I've been doing this wrong all

these years, I will say, actually what
you've done has gotten you to here.

I mean, you've got a lot of skill.

This is awesome.

You know, it isn't what you wanna do
right now, but what you've done has

gotten you to here to where you can take
the next step and do the next thing.

So I, I, I tried really to help
folks think about that, that

there, there's no judgment about.

What you've done in the past or you know,
any of that stuff, none of that matters

really, you know, so the softness part
of it, I think is all about safety.

It's about that, you know, if you don't
feel like you're being judged, you can

feel pretty safe about what's going on.

And I think that's, I think
that's really important.

We had a gal last year at one of
our clinics, one of our 10 day

clinics, and super nice, super nice
gal and, and, and very talented.

But she had gotten stuck in a, in
a system and was kind of putting a

lot of stuff, internal stuff onto
the horse that she was riding.

And for about six, six days at
least, I was trying to explain to

her that, you know, I don't know that
that's what we got going on here.

And I think it was maybe on the
eighth day it finally dawned on

me that I needed to be quiet.

I'm not hearing what she was saying.

She, and so she couldn't hear what I
was saying and I needed to stop talking.

And we sat down together and
I just said, okay, can you

just tell me what's going on?

And I mean, let's start at the beginning.

So what's, what's going on?

You know, not the beginning of
here when you got here, but the

beginning of your horsemanship.

You know, when you first started
riding, can we just, and she told

me the whole story and I just
listened to what she had to say.

And by the time we were done, she
felt better and things went well

with her horse and her, and that's
how the clinic ended for her.

And it had nothing to do with
me expounding on things that

I knew it had to do with just
listening to what she had to say.

And she explained to me that nobody has
ever taken the time to do that with her.

And so she has always thought that she
was just a bad student and people had

actually told her she was a bad student.

So it's that kind of thing, how
you help that person or that

horse feel safe, doesn't matter.

It just matters that they feel better.

And you know, and that's really, for
me, that's the most important thing.

And then, then we can do, then whatever
you wanna do, then we can do it.

Rupert Isaacson: The, the, the pressure we
sometimes feel that we're under, whether

we're instructors or facilitators or the
person providing the service, let's say

because there's a contract to this and
we all have that little voice imposter

syndrome and that little voice in
our head saying, yeah, but you suck.

Really, you know?

And no matter how much you know, that
actually, well, by now, actually, I sort

of do kind of know how to help people
with horses with this kind of thing.

It's okay.

I don't need to feel
this, but there it is.

We are human.

There's that little voice.

It's a

Mark Rashid: good thing though.

Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

Mark Rashid: It's a good thing
because it keeps you honest,

Rupert Isaacson: keeps you
honest, keeps you humble.

Sure.

But it can also dominate and overwhelm and

Mark Rashid: Yeah, if we let it, it's

Rupert Isaacson: heroin and things.

But yeah, it's, it's, it's
treading that line, obviously.

But you, you're right, it
serves a purpose for sure.

That inner critic, I guess it's
just that it's often pathological.

The safety has to happen, of
course, for the person who is

there to receive the thing that.

You guys have agreed to try to
transmit, whether that's an equine

assisted thing, whether that's a
horse training thing, whether that's a

photography thing or a writing thing,
or Aikido thing or a music thing.

And then there's you, the person
who is standing there with that

little inner voice as somebody who
suffers from anxiety and therefore

can really empathize with that a lot.

Chrissy, what do you do to
make yourself feel safe?

You go out into the judgemental
environment of the equine world

and it can be a pretty judgy place.

And you can be so good.

I mean, I know people who are so good at
what they do and they still get judged,

you know, it can feel very unsafe.

And in fact, I just want to add to that
before you answer that was I think the

thing about the Warwick Schiller journey
on summit in San Antonio that I met you

guys at, I think it was the only time
I've gone into an equine environment

that was, you know, sort of a

bringing a whole bunch of people
together, you know, to talk about

stuff where I did not observe the
judging and the factionalism and the.

Negativity.

And I was like, fuck, you
know, sorry, excuse my French.

But like, that was a first.

It's like, I was like, what's,
what's different about this?

It's like, no one's being a dick.

This is in fact the opposite.

In fact, people are actually trying
to see each other's points of

view and they're trying to just
sort of be kind to each other.

This is like unprecedented.

And I was a bit worried 'cause
I was bringing Rowan into that.

And I, you always worry a little
bit when I bring my son in is, is

it a safe place for him emotionally?

And it was, and you guys were
obviously a big part of that.

How do you make yourself feel safe?

Chrissy?

See,

Crissi McDonald: Put me on the spot.

I don't feel safe.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Feel safe now.

Crissi McDonald: Feel safe now.

Indeed.

Yeah, that's an ongoing process.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you
have some go-to things?

Crissi McDonald: Gratitude.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, good one is

Crissi McDonald: a is is a big one.

The other thing that I really, really keep
in mind is that I think Maya Angelou said

when you know better, you'll do better.

Okay.

Crissi McDonald: And so my whole
journey through horses and life

has been, as I have known more
and understood more, I can.

I'm not really sure about the word
better 'cause I'm not sure what

we're trying to be better than,
but, but we can improve, you know?

Yeah, sure.

I like the idea of becoming
a, a fully integrated self.

Right.

We have all the, all the emotions.

There's no good or bad.

We have responses and we have
all this stuff coming in.

We have all this stuff coming
out, but we're fully human,

meaning we make mistakes.

Mm.

We say the wrong thing.

We sometimes, despite our best
intentions, we, we mess up.

And so the thing that is my lifeboat, when
I have days when I have helped a horse

and a person, and then I go back and I'm
like, I don't think I made a dent, is to

remember that it, and I don't mean this
in a trite way, but I am doing my best.

Yeah.

I am doing what I know to
do, and that's all I can do.

And, and it's, it, you have
to, excuse me, that's my dog.

The other thing is, is I, you know, we
really have to cut ourselves some slack.

Hmm.

I don't

Crissi McDonald: know whose
standard we're trying to reach.

Hmm.

But I go, you know, I have
to live with myself as we all

have to live with ourselves.

And I want the rooms
in here to be pleasant.

I mean, even if there's a
room where there's anger or

if there's room where there's.

Sorrow or if they're, you know,
all the rooms are what they are.

And in order to do that, I
have to cut myself some slack.

You know, I have to look at a
horse and rider and go, I don't

have the skillset to help yet.

Maybe in five years I will,
because I'm doing things now that I

couldn't have done five years ago.

So I have to trust that I will
improve, and I have to really focus

on the fact that I'm doing my best.

Rupert Isaacson: I like
your gratitude thing.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: When I remember to
I'm not foolproof in this, but when

I remember to, I do thank the people
that come in front of me for trusting

me and just bringing this to me.

And I'm grateful.

I am, I am grateful.

I am actually grateful.

And then sometimes we'll do
a gratitude warmup together.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Before the thing where
I'll just say, let's think of what, what,

what are you grateful for right now?

And then they'll say something and
I'll say, okay, what I'm grateful

for, blah, blah, blah right now.

And it, it can be something
related or unrelated.

And I always find that that brings me
into a sense of just purely selfishly

into a sense of relaxation as you were,
you were saying about relaxation Sure.

Earlier.

Sure.

And I also am high anxiety.

I, I confront very well.

Because I grew up in that particular
school system in the uk, which

trains you to do it, but I'm a
quivering little bunny, you know,

inside, and I'm always dying of
fear in just about every situation.

I think it's part of my genetic,
you know, lit back Jews, you know,

always wondering where the next
pogroms gonna come from, you know?

Yeah.

Keep an eye on the exit.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah, I think
the gratitude is, you know, if I'm

having a stretch, whether it's at
work or in my life I had a wreck in

2014 and I had to use a cane and I
had to kind of relearn how to walk.

And so my go-to gratitude is,
is I'm so thankful I can walk.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

No kidding.

Crissi McDonald: You know, it's,
it's, I, I get, if I get wound up

on what I perceive as I'm doing
or not doing, that's a story.

And stories are awesome.

Unless they keep us wounded, unless they
keep us down, unless they keep us fearful.

Yeah.

I love stories, but they have a
place and so, you know, it's always

about just checking what story
am I telling myself right now?

Okay.

The story I'm telling myself is I'm
not a good enough horse person to help

this horse and rider with this issue.

Okay, well, doesn't sound very true.

You know, how do you know
that you helped or not?

They didn't tell you, they didn't
look at you and say, you suck.

They, they, you're, you're, I
mean, our brains are so interesting

because we are story making
machines and I, I think it can both.

Yeah.

So the nature

Rupert Isaacson: of our species,
we are the storytelling, eh?

Crissi McDonald: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so we can, I think it's really
wonderful to employ that in a way,

finding ways that are healthy to do it.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: And, and gratitude
seems to be a, I I bring that back

in because if I can re, if I can
pause and bring in the gratitude.

Well, I was just thinking

Rupert Isaacson: that
gratitude brings you the pause.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Crissi McDonald: yeah.

Then that it, it, the story washes away
because with, when you're grateful for

something, there is no story about that.

I'm grateful.

I can walk and I can walk.

Right.

I'm grateful for the blue sky today.

I'm for whatever it is.

It's a reset,

Rupert Isaacson: isn't it?

It's a constant.

Every time you, it's a reset.

Yeah.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And I
think in all these jobs,

one has to give out a lot of energy.

One can get depleted.

I have a, a kid that comes
out to me, I struggle.

I don't want him to know that, but I do.

And so I try to design the play
date so that it's in a place

where I feel as good as possible.

So we always meet by a
particular creek where, yeah.

I am kind of into the bird life and
I'm into the sound of the water,

and, and I know he'll he will be.

He's a perfectly nice kid.

It's nothing to do with him at all.

What triggers in me, it's down to me.

Certainly not his problem.

And it's a very interesting exercise in,
okay, well then what are the tools that

I can use here to make myself feel safe?

And I, I guess you're right, because what
happens is with each of those gratitude

things, I get a chance to pause and have
a breather in something which I find

internally, emotionally quite difficult,
which doesn't just get me through.

It allows me to deliver energy,
which is necessary and not have that,

oh my God, the energy's depleting.

You know, I'm gonna end up on
the wrong side of that, even

if that's complete fantasy.

Your brain doesn't know the
difference between fantasy and

reality, you know, as we know.

It's in, it's fascinating to me the
number of tools that you guys use without

necessarily being explicit about the fact
that you're using these tools to look at

you guys from the outside and see what
you bring in from the martial arts, what

you bring in from the arts, what you
bring in from the humanities, what you

bring in from neuroscience and so on.

One last thing because
we're sort of hitting the.

Just passing the two hour mark here.

And I do want people to also know
how to get in contact with you.

Your books come and study with you
and all that good stuff to get to.

But you did mention story and
you guys are both writers.

Do you bring story into what you do?

Do you encourage people to
journal, for example, through

the courses of, of what you do?

Do you consciously bring
story in, in, in certain ways?

And if so, how do you wanna
kick off with that one mark?

Mark Rashid: Yeah, I mean, I'm I've
been a storyteller all my life.

My, my family, you know, I grew up in
amongst a, a whole bunch of storytellers,

my whole family, my aunts and my
uncles, and my grandfather and my dad.

And, you know, it's, it's all, it
was always about stories and which

is why when I wrote the first book,
I wanted it to be a storybook.

I didn't want it to be a how to book.

And you can learn from stories and you
can learn from listening to stories.

And so oftentimes in, whether it's in
the dojo or whether we're in the arena

talking with somebody or we, I will
often say, yeah, that happened to me.

That thing that's going on with you.

You know, I can remember I had a time
when, and I'll tell them, you know, a

relatable story about something that
happened to me or when I was working

with a horse, or, you know, something
that just went horribly wrong when, you

know, I thought I was thinking that I
had it going on and then everything went

sideways and, you know, but you recover
from it and then you don't do it again.

You know?

Or you'd

Rupert Isaacson: be like me and
endlessly repeat the same mistake.

Yeah.

Or

Mark Rashid: you could do that too.

I mean, I think it's whatever
you're comfortable with.

Right.

But it's, but yeah, I, and I think
oftentimes when you least, it's been

my experience when, when somebody
can, will tell me something that

happened to them and something similar
had happened to me, or vice versa.

You just don't feel quite as alone.

Yeah.

Like, I'm the only person
who ever made that mistake.

Yeah.

You know, or did that thing.

And man, I just, you know, and here we
are 10 years later and I still feel,

feel horrible about it, you know?

Yeah.

I did that too.

And I know just how you feel.

And so

for me, you know, especially
being an instructor.

I think sometimes we as instructors,
we, and you kind of, you kind

of hinted at it too, is that we
inadvertently might put ourselves at

one level in a hierarchy and have the
student at another, another level.

And for me it's always been, I,
I don't want, I don't need the

person to know how much I know.

I just need them to know that I might
know the one piece that they don't know

that will help them move past this spot.

I might have that one piece of the puzzle.

And that's all really,
they need to know that.

And it goes back to what Chrissy
was talking about, where for me,

it's, it's not about how much I
know it's, can I help this person?

I, most of the time you just need
one piece, but it needs to be the

right piece at the right time.

Hmm.

Mark Rashid: And if you're
throwing out a ton of information

in everything that you know, it's
gonna get lost in there, you know?

Yeah.

So, so for me, that's, that's
what this is all about.

You know, how do we keep folks safe
and how do we keep the horses safe and

can we develop some softness and can we
feel better than we did when we came in?

Rupert Isaacson: Can we feel
better than we did when we came in?

Yeah.

I love that

Chrissy's story.

Crissi McDonald: I love stories.

Yeah, I, I much the same as Mark.

You know, I have 30 years worth of
stories with horses and there are some

stories that are illustrate a point, you
know, you can tell a story and you're

telling it from your point of view.

So the, the beautiful thing about
stories is we get to see through

the eyes of whoever we read, right?

Or whoever we're listening to.

And so if, if most people we see
have experience with a handful

of horses, they have many years
with a small amount of horses.

And Mark and I are very lucky because
we have a lot of years and a lot of

horses, which means a lot of stories
because we have a lot of experiences.

So yeah, I, I prefer to relate
something to a story rather than,

rather than giving the impression
that I'm here, that I know all this

stuff and you've come to me and that
you know, those, again, it's not me.

It's not me to, to think that because I've
had these experiences, I'm better than or.

No more, we're just farther
down the trail, right?

We're all on the same trail.

It's just, I've maybe reached
mile marker 20 and they're at 18.

So I can say, oh, to get from 18 to
20, you have to, you know, here's

some things that are helpful.

So when I think it comes to story,
it kind of takes the, the pressure

off of here's what I know, right?

And instead says, here's
what I experienced.

This is what happened.

And then the other person go,
oh, I've had that happen too.

And now you have a connection.

Hmm.

Safety

Rupert Isaacson: again.

Yeah,

Crissi McDonald: safety.

Yeah.

Safety in numbers.

I mean, we're herd animals.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And if you feel we're on, on,
on our own with this, that's the

highness might eat me feeling.

Yeah.

I, what I, I just really
liked what you said.

You, you've said three times now
experiences rather than experience,

and it's so interesting the

emotional difference
between those two things.

You say, I've got 30 years of
experience says it means, yeah.

30 years of stuff happening
to me, if you say I have 30

years of experience, it's like.

I have 30 years of experience.

You know, it's a very
different vibe, isn't it?

And

Crissi McDonald: yeah.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I didn't,

Rupert Isaacson: you did that
very spontaneously connection.

It, it, I thought, oh gosh.

I need to make sure I'm putting it in
those terms too, because one made me

feel safe and the other would not have.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

But 30 years though, I wanna
know you've, that experie 30

Crissi McDonald: years.

Yeah.

I have 30 years of experience.

That's so, like, it's not connecting.

It's instant Hierarchy isnt, it's

not, yeah.

Crissi McDonald: It, it's not, yeah.

It's not connecting.

No, it's not.

It's,

Crissi McDonald: but 30
years of experiences.

Other people can just say, well, I
have 30 years of experiences too.

Yeah.

You know, and that there's the
connection that, thank you Rupert.

That's, that was

Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you.

Thank you for pointing that out, for using
that and bringing that to my attention

because that, that's definitely actually
a tool, which I think, I don't know if

I'm using that tool well enough, but
now you've brought my attention to it.

I, I, I'm certainly gonna try to.

So story heals, as you say, unless
they're sort of triggering amygdala,

social media, you know, the wrong
kinds of stories, but stories do heal.

They seem to be medicine.

You guys are medicine people.

I think when it.

Comes to the work you do.

I, I genuinely think you are.

If people want to come and
connect with you, what do they do?

How do they find you?

What are the courses you offer?

And then please tell
them about your books.

So start with how they find you
and what are the courses you offer.

Either of you, just jump in, please.

Crissi McDonald: I will jump in
with some of the logistics stuff

and then Mark can add on to it.

Okay?

So you can go to mark asha.com.

We have once you're there, you
can sign up for a newsletter.

We have a little newsletter
goes out once a month.

We have an online classroom.

You can also find out how to
register by going to Mark's website.

And again, that's mark rashid.com.

Mark with a K we

Crissi McDonald: have Mark with a K.

Yes.

And then I have a website as well.

It's chrissy mcdonald.com.

And then both of us have books.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
McDonald, not McDonald.

Crissi McDonald: Well, it was
McDonald in 1660 and somehow

it became McDonald in 1690.

But that's Scottish history.

You probably don't wanna that,
that's not the, oh, I might

Rupert Isaacson: know because
my, my clan is Clan Mac first and

so Yeah, we could go to Oh yeah.

Rabbit Hole.

Oh yes.

Yeah, yeah,

Crissi McDonald: yeah.

That's a whole different rabbit hole.

Yeah.

But yes, it's Chrissy, C-R-I-S-S-I,
McDonald mc D-O-N-A-L-D

Okay.

Crissi McDonald: Dot com.

Okay.

And all my books are there.

You can look at them.

And then both Mark and I's books
are at whatever retailers you.

Like to buy from?

I always like to promote bookshop.org.

Okay.

Because it supports local bookstores.

Rupert Isaacson: That's cool.

Yeah, we've talked about one of
Mark's titles Consider The Horse.

There are others.

Is there a particular title you
would draw people's attention

to that from your books?

Chrissy?

Crissi McDonald: I have two horse books.

They're different focuses, so I'm
just going to point out both of them.

The first one I wrote is called
Continuing the Ride, rebuilding

Confidence from the Ground Up.

Okay.

And that has to do with what I
did to get back in the saddle in a

healthy way after my wreck in 2014.

Got it.

Crissi McDonald: So, because we
hear from a lot of people how

they're anxious and they don't
have the confidence they used to.

Sure.

And then the other one is called
Getting Along With Horses and

Evolution in Horsemanship.

And that explores some of the ideas
that we've been talking about here.

Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful.

Mark, I

Crissi McDonald: think
it's Mark's Turn Now

Rupert Isaacson: Books, please.

Mark Rashid: I don't know how
many books I have out actually.

16.

I've got 16 books out and so, and
you can find those on the website.

One thing I, I do wanna mention just
because it's a thing, so the first

book is called Considering the Horse.

So it's not consider

Rupert Isaacson: considering.

Mark Rashid: It's
considering, and here's why.

So when we were getting ready to put the
title on the book, I wanted to call it,

considering the Horse and the publisher
wanted to call it Consider the Horse.

Ah, and I felt really strongly
that Consider the horse was

telling people what to do,

whereas considering is an active,
it's an active thing that's, it's a

Rupert Isaacson: conversation
rather than a telling.

Yeah.

Mark Rashid: And indeed.

Yeah.

So, but there is actually, again,
there's a story behind why that title

is considering instead of consider.

So, I mean, we went round
and round for about a month.

Yeah.

On that, the difference between consider
and considering with the publisher.

And I just, I couldn't let it go.

I was, I, I just, I was fanatical
about it and so that's why

it's considering the horse

Rupert Isaacson: so well done.

Holding your ground.

Mark Rashid: Yeah.

And that was my first book too, that
they didn't even want to publish.

So I felt like, you know,
we did okay with it.

But yeah, all the books
are on the website.

Our music is on the website.

And we've got three or four
CDs out which people don't buy

anymore, but, but they're there.

And yeah, all of our courses are on there.

We do five day clinics.

We do all these at Happy Dog Ranch
and, and Sedalia, Colorado is south

of Denver, so, we do five day clinics.

We do a three day IBO and
riding in the afternoon.

And then IBO is in the morning,
riding is in the afternoon.

And then we do 10 day clinics.

There are intensives.

We do those June, August, September.

Our five days are in May and October.

And then we do some courses with Jim
Masterson and Steve Peters in July.

Fantastic.

And they're all at all at the same place.

Amazing place.

Rupert Isaacson: Happy Dog Ranch.

Mark Rashid: Happy Dog Ranch.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Happy.

We need to get, we

Mark Rashid: need to get you there.

Have you ever done there?

I'd love to

Rupert Isaacson: get there.

I'd love to.

I'm often in Denver.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And not Colorado Springs too, so.

Mark Rashid: Well, it's right
between, it's in between.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I, I know it, I know, I know.

At least I, I know the sign on
the highway when you driving.

Yes.

Yeah.

Love to, love to, love to.

Can people come?

Do, do you have to bring your horse?

Can you come without a horse?

You can come without a horse.

Okay.

Mark Rashid: Yep.

You have to do everything on foot.

But no, we got plenty of horses there.

Rupert Isaacson: Very cool.

All right.

Well, happy Dog Ranch.

Five day and 10 day intensive.

Brilliant.

Mark rashid.com.

Chrissy McDonald, mook donald.com.

Crissi McDonald: McDonald?

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: McDonald.

I would like to do this again.

There are some things I'd
like to go further into.

Also the work you do with
Masters and Method and the

things that you've alluded to.

There's, I feel we sort of
barely scratched the surface.

So would you, would you come,
would you guys come on again?

I'd love to.

Crissi McDonald: Absolutely.

Yeah.

I'd love to.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: My, it's
been my absolute pleasure.

I learned a lot.

I'm going to say experiences.

I'm not going to say experience.

I feel safer when I say it too.

Yeah.

Because isn't that something I,
if I say experience, I'm like

putting myself, I'm making myself
vulner one eyes, like mm-hmm.

What if my experiences not
good, not, but my experiences?

Well, they are what they are.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

You have lots of years of experiences too.

Rupert Isaacson: One or two.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Or two.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

That's who you are.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.

Alright, my friends, I'm gonna hit
that dreaded button stop record.

But thank you so much and we
will see you on the next one.

Thank you.

Thank you, Rupert.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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