Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

Most of us who work in this field
either work with kids or who might

have a variety of neurocognitive
conditions, sometimes mixed with

physical or young adults with anxiety.

I, you know, young adult autism, that
sort of thing, or, you know, perhaps

trauma and also perhaps veterans,
you know, but there's a whole other

group out there that I think a lot
of us don't work with because it's,

it's really a specialized thing.

And so we're very lucky to have Leanna
Tank here who's an occupational therapist

from Grand Rapids, Michigan, but also a
very accomplished horse, woman and works

in the equine assisted field as well.

And she works with a population
that I think most of us would

feel intimidated to work with, let's
say and takes it in her stride.

And so I want to delve
into Leanna's Toolbox and.

What, what makes her able to
do this and to do it so well.

I'm gonna let her explain what she does.

So without further ado big drummer
of the amazing Leanna Tank, one

of my great heroes, actually.

You are one of my great heroes.

Leanna, can you, can you talk to us
about who you are and what you do?

Leana Tank: Sure.

Yeah.

So, yeah, thank you for having me here.

It's quite an honor to be included.

You've had many, like brilliant,
amazing people on this podcast,

so it's great to be here.

Yeah, I mean, I, I'll say first off that
the population I work with does struggle

with some pretty extreme the extreme
end of the mental health continuum and

the challenges that people can can face,
you know, in the course of their lives.

And that can be a little bit
shocking to hear about as, as

just like a regular person.

So I just wanna validate that
and just give people a little

bit of a warning or a heads up.

Like, like the, the challenges of the
people that I work with are quite extreme.

I work in.

Residential behavioral health.

So these are programs for
people who need 24 7 support in

the community, staff support.

They come to us from the state
psychiatric hospitals, the prison

system, criminal justice system.

They have different diagnoses
like schizophrenia, many on the

autism spectrum, personality
disorders, cognitive impairments.

Many, many, you know, a lot of they
might have dual diagnoses, so they

might have schizophrenia and a cognitive
impairment and things like that.

Many

have committed crimes and so they're
part of part of their, part of their

treatment because they have been found
not guilty by reason of insanity is

to come and work in our programs.

So those are, that's the population
of people that I'm working with,

and they really are people who
are on the margins of society.

They really don't have a voice.

They're really not talked
about something I find.

Quite often when I'm meeting
people and they're asking

me like, oh, what do you do?

Who do you work with?

And I I tell them people
are often not very curious.

I don't get a lot of other questions.

I think it it, they make
people uncomfortable.

I think in our culture we are not great
at looking at that like darker side

of our natures in ourselves or in,
in, just like the culture in the, in

the, in our society, we want to kinda
label them as other and as monsters

and we want to send them off to jail.

We wanna punish 'em.

We want to stick them in the state
hospitals or say that they're

evil and send them to hell.

And they really get defined, I think,
by the things that they've done because

they, that it can be pretty extreme.

But in my experience, like
they are not what they've done.

They're, they're honestly,
they're like the most sensitive

and vulnerable of all of us.

They're they're kind of the,
the part of our society that is.

Hearing the burden or paying the
cost of like the breakdown of

our, our care systems and our
kind of social support network.

And they are the ones who are
growing up in the foster care system.

They're the ones born to families
that maybe they were exposed to drugs

and alcohol and utero, and they were
born with a nervous system and a brain

that's just wired really differently.

And then from the get go, they're already
in these institutions and systems.

There are really, really sensitive
neurodivergent folks that just

get taken advantage of or put in
the wrong place at the wrong time.

And really they, they, they could
be any of us, you know, like any of

us are capable of those extremes.

If we're put in the right set
of circumstances or we're one

calamity away from a brain injury
or a serious condition, that

dismantles our ability to regulate
ourselves and control our behavior.

And I think it is hard for somebody
with a, a brain that is fully in control

and, and, and capable of managing.

Fight and flight reactions to
understand what it's like to be

someone living in the world that
doesn't have that same capability.

So, so yeah, like I, I really want to be
able to do them justice and be able to

kind of express what's, you know, very,
very human, fully human, fully unique,

creative, interesting, you know, people,
they are, and I absolutely love working

with 'em, and I find it to be incredibly
fulfilling and interesting every day.

So, so yeah, I'm glad to be
able to be here and try to

be a good advocate for them.

Try to be a good voice for them because
more and more I see actually less and

less of a place for them in our culture.

Our culture kind of wants to, to
pretend that they're not there.

So

Rupert Isaacson: let me
play devil's advocate then.

I mean, you, you, you let slip two
words, I think, which were good clues.

One was monsters and
the other was extreme.

Just to be clear, I don't
want to trigger people.

Are these people who have done
things that society would de

monstrous or that we would.

With good reason, say that's
monstrous and it and extreme.

And then if that's the case, how does
the act of doing something monstrous,

which perhaps cost somebody else their
life and perhaps cost somebody else their

life in a horrible way, how does that not
define the person who committed the act?

I think that's a fair question
that many people would ask in that.

So whether or not one should
ask that question, I think

it's a natural question to us.

What, what do you say to that?

Because your perspective is so unique.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

You know, and I've worked with a
number of people who have you know,

committed crimes of that level of
severity who have done things like that.

You know, for the folks that I'm
working with, with their mental health

conditions, often they're in a state
of like psychosis or extreme distress

when something like that happens and
and then they're left really you know,

dealing with the trauma of that event.

I will say, you know, humanity
is extremely, adaptable

and extremely resilient.

I have worked with people who have
been through things, you know, either

things they've done or things that they
themselves have experienced that are just

kind of beyond imagining and they move on.

I think that a big part of, of healing
the, the trauma of something like that,

that has happened and I've, I've been
able to like witness this process.

Like it's been such a privilege
to like, be part of it and witness

it is moving from being defined by
that thing that happened and kind

of being always hypervigilant to
reminders of what happened or, you

know, per, you know, that that guilt
or that having that self-perception

colored by those events and through
through kind of that healing process.

And a lot of it is relationships with
somebody who can be very nonjudgmental,

who can help them see themselves
in different ways and, and also.

Organize those events and organize
kind of what happened and understand

it through the lens of how their
mental illness affected them.

And, and you know, just, just trying
to find a different perspective on it.

See people be able to integrate those
events, kind of figure out the lessons

that they've learned figure out how
to kind of come into alignment with

what happened and how they, what, how
they are going to use those things

to come forward and help others.

And honestly, something I've seen
several different times, and this is

how I know that a person is kind of
on that, on that path towards more

integration and more healing, is that
they will tell me that they want to

help others and they want to use what's
happened to them to support other people.

And they will kind of even take
those other people under their wing.

They'll be.

A positive impact on the other
people that live in those programs.

They'll kind of be a mentor.

They will take on that role.

So that's something
I've seen several times.

It's really something.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: I guess what,
so that people can get their

head around it because it's
outside most people's experience.

Most of us, if we think of someone
has done something monstrous and

they're locked up the first, you
know, it's, it's, it is usually a

Hollywood type of idea that comes in.

So I think the first picture
that a lot of people would

have would be Hannibal Lecter.

Mm-hmm.

And so the Hannibal Elector explains
in great clarity and detail and with

a sense of vindication that he's
right for having done what he did

and to do what he still wants to do.

Which of course is what makes him scary.

'cause he's not just that he does
these things, but he thinks them

through and he plans them and,
you know, executes them as well.

I think it's very difficult for
people not to have that idea.

And however, as you pointed out, these
are people who were actually found not

guilty because of their mental conditions

in, in the English.

Lexicon English, English lexicon
of British English lexicon

of sort of criminal justice.

I think what we call that is
if someone, it's premeditated,

it's malice, a forethought,
you know, that's the difference

between murder and manslaughter.

I think for example if somewhat it was
planned out, it was done in cold blood,

it was rather than in the heat of the
moment somehow, or blah, blah, blah, blah.

Of course adding psychosis to
this is a whole other thing.

And

is that something, which I think there
needs to be a greater understanding of

that psychosis can sort of happen to
people and that when someone is in that

psychotic period, they're not who they
were when they were not in that thing.

And then you also said something which
made me prick up my ears, which is

that one might be just one calamity
away from something that happens to

you that, an injury that causes that.

And I think you put your finger
on something there, because I,

I do know people who sustained
head injuries, who then went on

to do really quite crazy things.

And that seemed cruel and uncaring.

Because some part of their brain had
been damaged and, and, and this could

actually be sort of traced and traumatic
brain injury and criminal behavior.

Actually it's one of these areas
that's getting more studied now,

but I don't think there's a lot
of understanding of wider society.

But this of course is
your bread and butter.

Can you just talk to us a little
bit about this difference between

premeditation and non premeditation
psychosis and nons psychosis?

How you can be one person in one
moment and another person and

another traumatic brain injury.

I think this is really useful for,
particularly for people in our field.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think it's important to point out
that people with mental illness are much

more likely to be victims of violence
than to actually be violent themselves.

That's very true.

They are like three, I just saw these
stats like three times more likely

to be victims of a serious assault.

Mm-hmm.

And then more than half, I think
of like police killings in the

US are towards people with a
mental illness or, or disability.

And that's a lot of the folks that
I know that have gotten wrapped

up in the criminal justice system.

It's altercations with police.

They were, you know, being unusual in
public or something, you know, and I.

The police were called and the police
don't understand the mental illness

and they escalate and, and, and this
happens all the time, all the time.

There's just not a good understanding.

But I think to go to what you were
asking about, you know, with something

like psychosis which many people with
schizophrenia may experience but also, you

know, people can have psychotic episodes.

When you have bipolar disorder, certain
medications can induce psychosis.

People, older adults, when they are in
the beginning stages of like Alzheimer's

and dementia, can be pushed very easily
into psychosis, just with a little bit

of a change in their body chemistry.

They get a urinary tract infection
and they start experience psychosis.

And psychosis is really a disconnect
from like a shared reality.

So, there's different like
chemical processes that go on in

the brain and it can be different
depending on that diagnosis.

But people will develop delusions.

So ideas that.

Are not like logical or
what we would deem logical.

They might, sorry.

They might have hallucinations.

So they might see things
that other people don't see,

Rupert Isaacson: hear
voices in their head.

Leana Tank: Yep.

They might hear voices in their
head that seem very, very real.

And I've worked with people who
are extremely distressed by the

voices they hear in their head and
can barely maintain a conversation

because they're so distressing.

And then I've worked with people who
really enjoy their, the voices that

they hear or might perceive people
around them that they see as like

their family or like their friends,
and they find them very comforting.

There's different levels of insight.

Some people can kind of be a little bit
aware that they are not experiencing

like the same reality as other people.

And then some people have absolutely no
insight at all and there's no arguing.

So there, there's different
shades and levels to it.

I think when it becomes an
actual dangerous situation is

when it is really fed by fear.

So when the person is in an
extremely fearful state, when the

delusions or the hallucinations are
terrifying and scary, sometimes they.

Present as like demonic or they
present as they're being persecuted.

That's when you worry a little bit
about violence because the person feels

like they have to defend themselves.

So it's usually pretty.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And if they you a demon,
then all bets are off in that moment.

Yes.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

And any person, if you can kind
of like for an empathy experiment,

you know, imagine if you truly,
truly believed that a demon was

coming for you and, and saw it.

I mean, it, it's, it's a
very multisensory experience.

So your entire body's sensations
will perceive this as reality.

And the parts of your brain that are
gonna check that and say, maybe this

isn't happening, they are just offline.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I think, I think it's, it's easy to
underestimate the power of the amygdala.

Yeah.

It perceives that a threat has
gone beyond a certain point.

It's, yeah.

Well, its job is to tell the body to
produce cortisol to shut off thought

so that one acts and doesn't think.

Yeah.

It's, it's interesting.

Well, obviously it's fascinating, but.

I know, I think a lot of people have known
friends or family members, or close people

close to than us who've gone through
psychosis and this feeling of helplessness

that this person is unreachable

and yet you reach them.

So there they are.

Whatever has happened has happened,
and they find themselves in the

situation now living where they live.

And Leanna Tank walks into their life.

What's your objective?

You know, a lot of people,
again, it's very natural.

It might not be right,
but it's very natural.

Think, well, they've done these terrible
things, they should just be locked

up and the key should be thrown away.

That's just it.

Die in a dungeon somewhere.

But of course

actually life goes on and
somebody has to be there to make

that a life that has meaning.

Again, you can hear the devil's advocacy.

No, they've lost the right, you
know, they've forfeited that, right?

They should suffer and they should
live in a situation of unpleasantness

and suffering as punishment for
what they've done, even if they.

Were not themselves or didn't know
what they were doing or whatever.

You then arrive, actually,
let's back up a bit.

You weren't, you didn't come out of
your mother's womb doing this job,

so how did you end up doing this job?

And then let's get to what happens
when, when you arrive in that world.

So how, yeah, where does it begin for you?

How did you get into this?

Leana Tank: Oh gosh.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: 'cause stay us way back
because, you know, there must be stuff in

your childhood that prepared you for this
kind of, this kind of work that had to be.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

I'm like, trying to
think how far back to go.

Rupert Isaacson: Because it's interesting
when, you know, often when I'm asking

people about childhood in this, in this
type of work, it's often about, well,

you know, some sort of trauma or that,
but I, but we often overlook actually

the things that set one up really
advantageously in one's childhood.

And so you, you do such
extraordinary work.

It must have its roots in some deep
sort of sense of security or something.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

You know, I mean, I think that at
my core I'm, I'm very, very curious

and very interested in kind of that
full breadth of the human experience.

And I was very drawn.

Occupational therapy.

I, I studied in, in college, I
studied psychology and literature

and philosophy, and I, I've been
like a big reader all my life.

And I was drawn to OT because
it is very, very broad.

Occupational therapy is at its core, just
about using what people love to do as a

way to promote, like healing and meaning
to help people do more of the things

that they love and are important to them.

And then to also use meaningful, what
we call occupations are really like

anything that somebody might find
meaningful whether it's, you know,

playing chess or, or taking a walk
outside or riding a horse or whatever.

It can be anything.

Using those things to promote healing.

So it's, it's really broad and you can
apply it across just about any kind of

population, you know, from kids to older
adults, to people recovering from a hip

replacement to people with schizophrenia,
you know, in a locked institution.

I really like that because I don't
like being kind of pigeonholed and

siloed to one dogma or one set of
beliefs or one kind of approach.

I grew up in a pretty
like fundamentalist home

Rupert Isaacson: fundamentalist criticism.

Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that never, how did that prepare

Rupert Isaacson: you for, for seeing
the breadth of the human experience?

'cause that's presumably about narrowing
the human experience, is it not?

Leana Tank: Yeah, and it, yeah.

And I, I feel like growing up
in that kind of a, it was a

very, very, like, loving home.

And, and, you know, just like
a great family good community.

But it was the, when you grow up
in a very fundamentalist Christian

home, it's really about molding you
to be the person that, that that

belief system wants you to be and not
really supporting you in expressing

who you really are or really like,

it's more about.

You figuring out what's the right
thing to feel, what's the right way

to behave, what's the right emotion
to have, and not like tapping in and

understanding what you actually do
feel and what you actually do believe.

So I feel like that whole process and
being able to figure out how to do

that came like really late for me.

So I almost how get them was
really, gosh, like, like college

and even beyond, you know?

And I think as I have like worked through
figuring out, you know, how to actually

engage with that it really motivated
me to like help other people do that.

And also to work in a way that is
like, how can I help these people who

are not acknowledged, are not seen,
are not valued for who they are?

How can I help them figure out who they
are and, and be accepted for who they are?

And when you are coming in to work
with somebody in these settings, you

have to walk in very nonjudgmentally.

You have to, to the, to the extremes,
dismantle your judgment about what

they deserve and what they've done.

You have to be pretty radical in in
accepting kind of who this person

is and, and who they've been in
the world and be ready to meet that

person exactly where they're at.

So it's always really interesting.

I will do a little chart review
and read like what is, you

know, what has this person done?

What's their history?

And it always reads pretty rough.

It's always a little scary
and a little shocking.

It's like, I mean, how would you like
it if before I met you, I read the

rap sheet of every terrible thing
you've ever done in your life, right?

Like all probably the worst moments
are all in these people's charts for

everyone to read before they meet them.

And then almost always the person I
meet is like completely different.

Like you would never imagine
that that was their history.

It's very, very rare
that I meet anyone that.

Actually like, wants to hurt people or,
you know, has any intention of doing that.

It's all these things that have
happened when they were really

pushed into their survival state.

But I do meet people that like, don't
really wanna work with me or maybe

don't, maybe they're pretty disconnected
from reality and they're hard to

reach or they've been therapized and
in, in institutions for so long that

they're just kind of like, get lost.

I don't want, you know, I don't
want anything to do with you.

But I feel like I have developed
three different ways, like a, a way

of kind of approaching people without
an expectation, without an agenda

and being just very, very open to meet
them exactly where they're, they are.

And where they are is completely fine.

And often when I am asked to go
meet with someone, it's because

the team has an idea of where they.

What they should be working on.

Maybe they haven't showered in a year
and they want me to help them do that.

Maybe they struggle with managing
their emotions and they want me to

work with 'em on that or whatever.

But I kind of have to put all
that to the side and just meet

this person and be like, well,
what do they think is important?

What's like,

Rupert Isaacson: established
relationship effectively?

Leana Tank: Yes, yes.

And there's people, and I have the
luxury of doing this, where I can sit

down and what they wanna do is like,
talk about the rings and the jewelry

that I have on and rocks and stones, or
what they wanna do is, you know, just

listen to music, you know, on my phone.

And I can do that with 'em for
weeks and weeks and weeks to kind of

establish that relationship and then
figure out like what's important to

them and where do, where do they want
to grow, where do they wanna develop?

And a lot of times those other things
just kind of fall into place when

they feel like they have like a safe
relationship when they feel like they

have more meaning in their lives when they
feel like they, you know, are actually

Rupert Isaacson: heard.

Leana Tank: Heard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

How do, okay, you as growing up as
a young fundamentalist Christian,

were not probably schooled in this
type of non judgmentalism, right?

Because any dogmatic religion
has pretty clear judgements.

You're either in or you're out.

You either follow the rules or you don't.

You're either saved or you're gonna hell.

And it's also a punishment
based punishment and reward

based culture, right?

If you do these quote unquote bad
things, you're going to hell and you're

probably be ostracized and perhaps even
physically punished, you know, here.

And that includes if you just
don't toe the line we'll,

you know, won't support you.

How did you get from that to what
I think is, and I guess, I guess

what I'm, what comes to mind here is
what you are actually talking about

is what Christianity is supposed
to be, which is love thy neighbor.

Don't be an asshole.

If you are an asshole.

It's entirely forgivable forgiveness.

Redemption.

Do you think that some really discerning
part of you as a child thought?

Yeah.

All that punishment stuff, that's
all shame, but all that love

thy neighbor, redemption stuff.

That's good shit.

And what made you able to discern that?

Because I don't think everybody
who grows up in that can

go back to your young self.

Yeah,

Leana Tank: yeah.

You know, I mean, I think part of it
was, part of it was just baked in me.

Mm-hmm.

I can remember being very, very young.

I was a very like, magically
minded animal loving, you know,

kindergartner, first grader.

And even, even in elementary
school hearing that was the

big, like environmentalism was
like a big burgeoning thing.

And I remember hearing about it
and being like, that sounds cool.

And then in.

Church or wherever, and the dog mutt
was like, oh no, we don't believe

in environmentalism and we don't,
you know, this is, it's all about

supporting people and humanity and we
don't, you know, we're, we want Man has

Rupert Isaacson: dominion.

Yeah.

Man has

Leana Tank: dominion.

Yeah.

And, and that never
really made sense to me.

I remember just being kind of
like, oh, I don't know about that.

And I think I, I read a lot.

I, I, when I went to college,
I studied philosophy.

My, I had a really deep interest in
like other cultures and traveling.

My grandparents were missionaries
in Africa and South America.

So I grew up with all these stories
about my dad growing up in these

other places that I thought were
really fascinating and intriguing.

And my mom's side of the family,
my grandfather was like a magician.

And so I grew up with all these,
like, you know, my, my mom and my

uncle had all these like sleight
of hand magician tricks and, and

stories about his life as a magician.

I mean, he was a lawyer, but he
was like a big time magician.

He was like the president of the
International Brotherhood of Magicians.

I, yeah.

So I think I grew up with all these
different ideas and when I went to

college and studied theology I, not
theology, but philosophy, when I

actually started reading and thinking
about the concept of hell and trying

to make it make sense how all of these,
like other cultures of the world, like

90% of like the world's population
would be just kind of resigned to hell.

And somehow the Americans with all of
our, like, you know, our money and our

comfort also happened to be correct in
our beliefs and, and we'll go to heaven.

To me I was like, yeah, that
makes absolutely no sense.

The American.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I did I, I did like and
believe in that idea of caring

for like the least of these.

And, and when I was just starting to look
at like where to invest my, like my work

and my energy and my time I, it was like,
well, that seems like a worthy place.

You know, to put my, to
invest my, like, work life.

I, I really loved, I read Oliver
Sacks is a, I read his work in

college and it was really, really, it
really like connected with me and I'm

actually reading his letters right now

Rupert Isaacson: for a hat.

Leana Tank: Yeah, he was a neurologist
and he, but he was a very like,

human kind of poet, neurologist that,
like, he wrote these case histories

of these really extreme cases of
people, people's experiences with like

different neurological conditions.

But it was all about how they, how they
kind of lost all foundation of like who

they are, who they were in the world,
how they experienced life, and then

how they kind of remade it and, and
adapted and, and kind of found their

humanity and worked those conditions into
their, into an another form of meaning.

And I just found it to be really,
really beautiful and interesting and

I'd never, I didn't, wasn't even aware
of, you know, it's just like beyond this

imaginable experience, what, how people
can wind up living and still having, I.

A very full, meaningful, rich life.

And that just really fascinated me.

So yeah, I feel like I'm kind of like
wandering away from the question.

I don't even remember where we started.

No, I, I think, I think you got that.

And

Rupert Isaacson: so, and it leads me to
a, a triple question, which is this one.

So how does one develop the
ability to approach without agenda?

And then my devil's advocate
questions, is there actually no agenda?

Because okay, maybe they haven't
showered or they're not communicating.

So presumably you're brought in
there for some sort of healing.

Is healing an agenda?

And is th that an okay agenda?

You know what I mean?

So just

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Your thoughts on this, really?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, okay.

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Leana Tank: A couple of
things to say on that.

I'll start with in, in my experience,
the most powerful real healing has

always come from that person themselves.

So I really don't, and I've gotten more
and more and more to where I feel like.

My role is really just to
help remove whatever barriers

are there for that person to,

you know, find what healing is for them.

And it can just be these really
small shifts in like greater, greater

participation, greater connection to
themselves, greater connection to others.

It's for a lot of the people that I work
with, like they're not going to whatever,

what it, what even is healing, you know,
like what is healing isn't like they're

fixed or they're cured or they're healed.

It's like, well, it's
difference between healing.

And

Rupert Isaacson: it's a good question.

I think in my mind there is a big
difference between healing and cure.

Like people often think knowing
when I went off to Mongolia with

Roman, for example, oh, you were
looking for a cure for autism.

No, I wasn't, but I was looking for
healing because we were all suffering

and we did find it, but the autism
wasn't what was causing the suffering.

It was reactions to other things.

But yeah, so I, I think that is just
worth drawing attention to that.

Healing and cure are two
slightly different things.

And so, but, so Go on.

Yeah.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that is definitely the,
the way I am operating and the way I

am looking at things like a lot of the
people I work with are always going to

need some degree of like, support just,
just to be safe and to live in the world.

But often they are really, really
disconnected from themselves.

They're disconnected from other people.

They're not, they don't have a lot
of meaning or purpose in their lives.

There's, their days are
kind of full of like

nothing avoid.

So if I'm able to even shift that a
little bit and, and bring in some purpose,

bring in some movement, bring in some
energy, some vitality, some, you know,

just yeah, any kind of like change in
that I see as as progress as healing.

And I've seen small shifts and I've
seen really big shifts and I've seen,

I've worked with people that I've been
like, I didn't do anything for them.

And then a year later I, I will hear
a story that, you know, actually there

was an impact or there was a big change.

So, but generally I.

If I come in with some kind of
preconceived notion or idea of like,

what that's going to look like and what's
gonna help them, it doesn't go very well.

And so coming in with no agenda and just
really, really radically listening to

that person and where they are and what's
important to them and what they feel could

be, you know, would, what that would mean
for them is, is always the way to go.

And then my job is just to
be like, yes, great idea.

How are we gonna do that?

You know?

And honestly, the systems
that we're working in are so

dysfunctional and so broken.

It's, it's really basic
stuff for a lot of people.

You know, in, in, in the program where
our probably most intense, it's like

locked all men mostly in that like
not guilty by reason of insanity.

So they have, you know, all part
of the criminal justice system.

It sounds really gnarly.

Most of the time what they
wanna do is take a walk outside.

You know, I take people if
it's safe for me to do so.

And, and most of the time it
is, I'll just take them walking.

We live by.

They're about 15 minutes from
Lake Michigan, which is beautiful.

And I'll just take them out to the
lake and we'll walk on the beach.

And I'm like one of the only ones that
does that kind of thing, you know, like

it's just not really part of the medical,
healthcare system frame of reference

to see that as like a healing activity.

But for me it's like a no brainer.

Like let's go see some beautiful nature.

And I just did that recently and had
this young man who was really struggling

and it, it's been like a cold winter and
there was, we went out to the lake shore

and there's just this little patch of
blue sky and he like pointed at it and he

was like, that, that's telling me that,
that God's telling me he's got my back.

You know?

And and that led to a really, you know,
beautiful conversation about like,

yeah, like that, that's beautiful.

That's such a, like what a lovely
way of like, nature showing you

that like it's there for you, it's
showing up for you and like what else,

what else tells you that, you know?

And he's like, well, sometimes I
see birds and that, you know, that

tells me everything's gonna be okay.

You know, and like, and just conversations
like that that help give people a sense

of connection, a sense of like, insight
and get them thinking, thinking along

those lines I think is like, really
healing and letting, you know, bringing

people into nature and then letting nature
show up and do what it's gonna do, and

then be just prepared to frame that and
organize it and kind of like give them

a way to synthesize it is, is one of the
most powerful and easiest ways I think.

And then the other thing in that program
that everyone wants to do is cook.

That's interesting.

Why?

Yeah.

A lot of them have been in prison
or institutions a lot of their lives

and they never, ever got to cook.

They don't know how even in that facility,

Rupert Isaacson: do they tell you, or
is this something that you suggest?

Leana Tank: A lot of times it's like,
the only thing they wanna do with me.

So it'll, it'll be like,
what do you wanna do?

Nothing.

And then maybe I'll give options
and they'll be like, actually,

yes, I would love to make brownies.

People love food.

Cooking is a really, really just
foundational functional skill.

Like, if they're gonna like, move on from
there and, and everyone wants to be more

independent, you know, for, you know.

The day-to-day life of most of us of like
driving a car, having a home, having a job

is like beyond the wildest dreams of like
most of the people that I'm working with.

So if they feel like they can like
work towards skills that will give them

some level of independence, they're
a little more motivated for that too.

And so I'll do whatever I can to,
like, I'll, I've like rigged up

little hot plates so we can like, make
burgers or pancakes or I'll take 'em

to another, there's other programs
that have kitchens where we have

kitchen access and we'll cook things.

And if you think about like
promoting a sense of safety and

like community and connection like
cooking is, is just great for that.

You know, if you think about like,

Rupert Isaacson: it's
wellbeing, I guess, isn't it?

Yeah.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

And like if you are like cooking in
the kitchen with a friend or something,

or making dinner with a friend or,
you know, it's just a very like,

safe, connected, enjoyable, ancient,
ancient thing to, to be engaged in.

And I, that's, so many of
them wanna do that with me.

So I try to do that as much as I can.

Rupert Isaacson: This was actually,
you've sort of partly answered, but I, I

still want to pose the question because
I think it bears more discussion, is,

you know, I, I would imagine that quite
a few of the people are in a fairly

profound state of despair, and when
you're in despair, you lose motivation.

So if you were to say, well, I'm, I, I,
I do what they like the way they love

music, or they want, but I should imagine
that a lot of people have lost a sense

of what they like and what they love.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But what you've just
described is effectively nature, because

I would put cooking in that category too,
because you're using natural elements,

natural processes for a natural process.

When you are encountering that nihilistic
despair that people have given up,

is, is nature always the key?

Leana Tank: That is usually
the easiest, most effective,

most powerful thing to access?

Yeah, I would say.

Rupert Isaacson: So.

Why is that not prescribed?

Leana Tank: That's a very good question.

Rupert Isaacson: What do you
seriously, why given that, I think

deep down we all know this, right?

And that mental health started
with the Quakers and asylums

and asylums were supposed to be,
asylum means sanctuary, right?

That's its actual meaning that the,
that they created gar effectively

gardens that people could rest in and
come back to themselves in and so on.

And so, and we've known this forever

and you are now getting some physicians
prescribing nature, but just begun

to happen, I think, post covid.

Why do you think that

given that, you know,
intelligent people are

helping to create the policies
that affect people in mental

health institutions, what, yeah.

Why isn't it just a
fundamental, what's blocking it?

What,

Leana Tank: yeah.

I mean, I think a lot of it is just the
state of our medical systems is very,

the, the perspective is very mechanized.

It's very reductionistic.

So the focus is much more on medications
behavior management, behavior plans

and you know, things like that.

More focused on diagnosing, prescribing
and there's just not as much

thought put into the environment.

The indoor environment, the outdoor
environment things are pretty siloed.

There's, you know, lawn care people that
take care of the outside and then there's

maintenance for the inside and yeah, it's
just that whole picture isn't considered.

Even just the consideration of like, the
impact and power of like the culture and

the community in of a program can have
such a powerful, powerful influence on

that person's progress and their healing.

Because, I mean, our neurobiology is
not to be like in this vacuum, like

our brains and nervous systems are.

Designed to be always engaging with and
connecting with and resonating with the

other people around us and the nature
around us and the environment around us.

And that is like the number one most
powerful de determinant of kind of

like where someone is gonna be, you
know, what they're gonna be doing

with their time, you know, what
kind of state they're gonna be in.

But that's just, it's, it's
a very complex, dynamic

system that is not linear.

And I think that the medical system
wants everything to be very linear.

Linear and very, like A plus B equals
C, and let's just change this one thing,

or let's just look at it this one way.

Or they look at that person in a
vacuum and they don't look at the

whole web of every determinant that is
contributing to that person's health.

Rupert Isaacson: I guess there's
also presumably a desire both

negative and positive for control.

Mm-hmm.

To say these people are
outta control, not safe.

They're not safe to be
out in the community.

Mm-hmm.

So therefore a walk in nature is.

Out in the community.

We can't risk people.

We can't risk these people.

You know, the service user, if you like,
losing control, having a psychotic, you

know, and while one can understand that
you seem to some degree to be putting the

lie to that, which is interesting to me.

Are you ever afraid, let's say you take
them out to Michi late Michigan, that

they're gonna do something crazy that
you yourself are in danger or that other

people on that beach could be in danger?

I mean, admittedly I've been out to the
late Michigan beaches, unless you're

going to a hotspot, it's a lot of,
you know, it's wild what, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So it's not like there's a ton of
people around, but nonetheless is it

irresponsible to take them out like that?

It's, you know, just, just talk,
talk through all these complexities

that I could see going through
the heads of policy makers.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

You know, I mean, I'm always mindful of
who I'm working with and I know them well

and there are safety measures in place.

There's assessments, there's safety
plans, and there, there's all of this

structure in place to kind of determine.

Levels of safety for people
going in the community if

they need, I presume sometimes

Rupert Isaacson: minders, you know?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Extra people.

Some will say you need two staff,
some can't go with a female,

some have to go with a male.

Like there's, there's a lot of
structure of safety in place

around working with these people.

And I'm very, very mindful.

There are certain people that I will
totally go for a hike in the woods

alone with and feel completely safe.

And there's people I
would never do that with.

And you know, for most of the folks,
when you know them, you know, it's,

you know, when they're in their own,
they're, they're, they're connected

to themselves, they have a good sense
of themselves, they're in control,

whatever, you know, whatever that means.

They're, they're aware of their actions
and they're in a good head space.

And you know, when someone is
struggling, when someone's activated,

when someone is when they're so
higher risk of, you know, them.

Getting triggered into
some kind of distress.

And that wouldn't be a time when I'm,
you know, taking somebody out or maybe

I would have someone else come with
me if I'm trying to take them out to

like help them manage their stress.

But for the most part, when I'm working
with people, they're in a good head space.

They're pretty centered.

They're, you know, not in crisis.

There's a really, really big difference
between when someone is in active crisis.

And that is when you see a lot
of those like really distressing,

challenging behaviors.

And it does happen, but it's,
there's a completely different

difference, you know, when someone
is in crisis and when they're not.

And you're not

Rupert Isaacson: worried that a,
a crisis could be triggered by

something outside of your control.

Leana Tank: It can happen, but you kind
of know your person and you know what

kind of things are gonna trigger that.

And you can take precautions
and I'm pretty proactive.

Like I know how to assess the
situation and I know my person and

I know what might be distressing
to them and I avoid that or I.

Maybe sometimes we're like, I
have people that going out in the

community does trigger some anxiety
triggers some hallucinations.

They might hear people saying mean things
to them that are not like really real.

And that might be something
that we talk about.

Maybe we practice like
some grounding tools.

You know, I, I go, I have a lot of
tools in my little trauma toolkit,

sensory toolkit for helping people
manage that kind of distress.

So that would be something that
we are like building awareness

of and we're working on.

And I can very intentionally kind
of push their window of tolerance

without them going over the edge.

So, yeah, talk to us.

Rupert Isaacson: Take
us through your toolkit.

That's fascinating.

I think a lot of us would like to
have access to those sorts of tools.

Leana Tank: Oh, you know, a
lot of it is, I, I use a lot of

body-based sensory strategies.

So as an OT I did a lot of training
on like sensory integration.

I.

And understanding how we, how our
senses kind of shape our reality,

Rupert Isaacson: our
nervous systems, in fact.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, it's so fascinating
that it's one of my areas I'm so

fascinated by and, and it really
is a growing area in mental health.

I think people are understanding more and
more that like mind and body connection

and that it's not just that mental health
is this like disembodied thing that just

happens in our brains, but it's really

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

A

Leana Tank: whole bodies, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: it started to,
okay, we understand, okay, let's

take into account the nervous system.

And nature presumably has fewer
bad sensory triggers because we

are organisms, you know, therefore.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But for avoiding
crisis or for dealing with crisis.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you be specific
about some tools that you think might be,

'cause we all go through crisis, right?

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And we

Rupert Isaacson: all crises in our
families and we have crises in ourselves.

This's gonna happen several times a
day just in the most normal situations.

So, because you work on the
cutting edge of this, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

There are some

Rupert Isaacson: tools.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Well, first is I.

I'm very, very aware of myself
and where my system is at.

I, you know, have a lot, have
developed a lot of tools just

to keep myself like grounded.

Keep myself in kind of that calm,
regulated nervous system state, being

able to use my voice, my body language
my breathing to take advantage of

the, that like mirroring, reflection,
resonance with the other person's system.

You use these tools to kind of become
that like safe anchor for that person.

And it, a lot of it is in like,
the language that you use and

just the way that you show up.

And then I'm always going to try to
organize so using things like rhythm,

so music, offering to play music
offering to you know, seeing like what

kind of music do you wanna listen to?

Let's put it on, let's rock to
the music, let's walk to the

music, let's try to sing along.

I have done a lot of training to, in like
the different nerve nervous system states.

So being able to observe if somebody
is edging into more of a fight response

or a flight response or a freeze, I,
you have to really train your eye to

see those very subtle shifts in that
person's physiology that tell you that

they are starting to become activated.

And it can be as small as like
they're holding their breath.

And being able to, in a very curious,
nonjudgmental way, notice those things.

A lot of times if somebody feels like you
are that aware and noticing that kind of

a shift in their state that alone will
bring about a lot of safety for them.

And

so, so being able to see that and kind of.

Headed off before things escalate
really higher, because once somebody

has really shifted into an activated
fight or flight state, it's a

lot harder to to bring them down.

But,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

Quick question about the music.

So what if they want to listen
to music that, you know, is gonna

dysregulate them even further?

Leana Tank: I, you know,
I'd give some options.

No, let's listen to Moza.

No, I wanna

Rupert Isaacson: listen
to, you know, whatever and

Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You don't
wanna then get into it.

No, you can't.

And right time you're trying to
follow them and, but you also know

it's gonna trigger them, so, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Like how would you,
how'd you deal with that?

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's tricky.

I mean, it, I would maybe give
some choices within that like, area

that they're looking at and I have
like a Spotify account that I can,

like, pick just about anything.

And even if, you know, there's music
that is gonna trigger them, you know, and

it's hard to say like how much it would,
even if something is really, really like

Ragey we might be able to put that on.

And I might still be able, within that,
I'm going to try to organize a rhythm.

I'm gonna try to organize like maybe we.

Get out a drum or we get something out
and we try to like, go along to the beat

with that, you know, to try to like build
a rhythm, build an organization within

like, the music that they wanna listen to.

Or maybe we're gonna go and like power
walk to it, or maybe we're gonna try

to sing along as a way to kind of like
get that energy out in a positive way.

Rupert Isaacson: I'll to it.

That's cool.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

I mean, a lot of times, like I,
I mean I use music all the time.

Rupert Isaacson: And, and I'm just
thinking even let's say that's

what I'm think these tools are so
useful in more mundane situations.

I remember when I was a, a kid and
wanting to listen to lots and lots and

lots of metal and, you know, there was
always in the house that kind of, no,

this is go away from your horrible metal.

I hate your metal.

And that, so of course, you know, metal
became a point of rebellion, but at

no point, for example, did anyone say,
actually, why don't we just clean the

house really, really hard to this metal
to this day, it's my house cleaning music.

Like if you put on metal mm-hmm.

You're gonna get a clean
house, you know, if I'm mm-hmm.

I'm just gonna start cleaning, you know.

So it's interesting that you say
that the idea of sort of taking

even a ragy energy and channeling

Leana Tank: it.

Channeling it,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

You have to be, you have to have some sort
of inner security to be able to do that.

What do you do then?

If they are, if they
have gone over the edge?

Leana Tank: Then it's really
just about safety, you know?

And that's when you have to be aware
of like who else is around, who can

have your back, how working together
just to like keep the situation safe.

And, and, and the folks that I work
with, like when they do go over the edge

and when they are their, their systems
can be so sensitive that that's when

things can get pretty extreme and unsafe.

So honestly, in my nearly 10 years
of working there, I really haven't

experienced much of that myself, honestly.

I have certainly worked with people who
then I hear about like, you know, oh, I

worked, I, you know, made cookies with
this person this morning, and then last

night they destroyed the whole entire
program and destroyed, you know, went and,

you know, threw rocks at the staff's car.

And I'm like, oh dang,
they had a bad night.

What'd you put in those cookies?

Right?

The cookies did not create the
happiness I was hoping for.

But I think because, and some of
it is just my, the nature of my

position, I'm kind of the good guy.

I'm kind of the safe.

Friendly, fun person that is doing the
things that the person wants to do.

And I am, pretty skilled at where
that person's zone of tolerance is

and not to push them over that edge.

Yeah.

And honestly, the things that really push
people into that fight or flight are those

more author authoritarian, controlling
dominance based ways of engagement.

And, and, and we struggle with that, you
know, with like, with our staff and, and

those kinds of interactions because that
can be like the go-to for a lot of people.

That's how a lot of people were raised.

That's how a lot of people feel like
they need to keep things safe and keep

things locked down and in control.

And those are the kinds of ways of
interacting that really escalate people.

And so I have found that if you're not
meeting people with that kind of energy,

like most of the time, that I just don't,
I just don't see that side of them.

Rupert Isaacson: And it's
interesting because, yeah, I,

I obviously in my line of work,
your line of work, you know, ones.

Meeting a lot of people who are dealing
with people struggling with mental

health and getting attacked, punched,
kicked, bitten, can be part of the game.

And one of the things I find really
interesting about talking to you is that

I'm not hearing those stories from you.

Even though you are in there
with people who certainly could

and perhaps do with others,

I don't wanna jinx you, but why do you
think beyond the fact that you don't adopt

an authoritarian escalating approach?

As you say, if they do flip over
the edge, it has to be about safety

and therefore a certain amount
of coercion is going to come in.

You could end up on the
end of a flying fist.

Why don't you, do you think,

Leana Tank: I mean, I think that's,
that's a big part of it, is not coming

in with that mindset of trying to control
people, trying to dominate, trying to,

Rupert Isaacson: there's so
much of it about intention.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

I think, I think the energy that you
bring to it is a huge part of it.

And then I'm also just really,
really attuned to where they're

at and, and listening to them
and kind of me, you know.

Using myself as a way to help
them connect more to themselves.

And I think when you show up to work
people with people in that way, like

you're really a lot less likely to
run into those kinds of challenges.

I'm not saying it can't happen and,
and honestly, if somebody's in active

crisis, I'm not gonna go and try to
work with 'em because that's not really

the time that that's not the time
where I'm gonna really be effective.

Right.

That's not the time when people
are learning and growing,

Rupert Isaacson: that the people
are like, sorry Leanna, they're

just, you know, busy Yeah.

Kicking the doors in.

Yeah.

Would, would you say, okay, I'll
see you tomorrow in that case?

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

When, okay.

I'm, I'm torn between going
further into nature or into art

and aesthetics here, because which
actually is perhaps the same thing.

Let's just talk a bit
about indoor environments.

So taking people out into nature.

Fantastic.

Okay.

The indoor environment.

What do you feel is the importance of
art and aesthetics in mental health,

including our everyday mental health?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

I mean, I think it's enormously important.

And it's, that's an area.

Yeah, I mean that's an area that
I've been really trying to like,

think outside the box and in our
programs, because they do tend to

look pretty institutional just because
things get ripped up and destroyed.

And so everything has to
be really, really durable.

But I know, like I, I I read this book
called Healing Spaces that just goes

into so much detail and research about
the importance of the environment on

people's mental health and their healing.

And there was even, I recall a steady,
like done in hospitals that if somebody

is in a room with a window where
they can see outside and they can see

like trees that they heal faster from
medical conditions, then a room with

a window facing like a brick wall.

And there's so many different aspects
of like the indoor and the outdoor

environment, you know, just lighting
and color and the furniture, you

know, and like the sounds and the
smells and even just like the space,

how the space is laid out itself.

And I do a lot of evaluating that when I.

I, I help a lot on the teams
that are deciding like, okay,

this person should go here.

This person should go here.

And we have homes that are specifically
for like autistic adults who have really,

really intense, challenging behaviors
and trying to make sure that they have

environments that are optimal for them.

And it, it can be a challenge to
advocate even for like, let's make sure

they have some rocking chairs, right?

Like, and when you're talking adults,
it's, even with autism, it's even more

challenging because like, you can have
a little swing for a little kid or

whatever, and that's easy, but I've got
like 300 pound dudes that also could

use a swing, but it's a lot harder
to find a swing that's gonna hold up.

And even our rocking chairs, like we
will buy recliners that rock and they

get destroyed within a few months.

So really like trying to figure out
what is gonna do the job, what's gonna

hold up, what's not gonna get destroyed,
what's gonna be cost effective.

It can be really challenging
and the same, you know, putting

art and things on the walls.

It's finding things that are.

Aesthetically pleasing that are not
gonna get ripped down and destroyed.

There was also like research on even
putting up like nature, like fractals,

like, nature art that has like, those,
like repeating patterns and things in

it reduces like anxiety and depression.

I found a research study about that.

I thought it was so interesting to

Rupert Isaacson: me that would
make sense because of course it,

it mimics the environment that
our organism is designed for.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.

As you were talking, it made me
remember a guy I had a very fascinating

conversation with once, who his job was
to, it's in England to take pubs that

had a, he worked for the brewery and
his specialty was to take pubs that had

a real problem with violent culture.

Those British listeners know what violent
pub culture can truly be in the uk.

They can be murderous places, the wrong
pubs and turning, turning them around.

And he was this really small expert.

You expect a bloke like that to be, you
know, huge shave and head, you know,

tattoos everywhere, mouth intimidating.

He was this little hippie and I said,
how are you so successful at this

that they pay you the big bucks?

He said, Ru, it's so easy when people
wanna fight, they want a fighting space.

So the first thing we do
is we take that space away.

So almost all violent pubs will have
a big open area with all the seating

Leana Tank: around the walls

Rupert Isaacson: effectively.

Mm-hmm.

So that there's a place
for people to do this.

They might call it a dance
floor, but it's, it's not, it's

a, it's a gladiatorial arena.

The first thing, the first thing
we do ru, is we put nice big

comfy sofas and armchairs in there
that are sort of deep and comfy.

He said mm-hmm.

People sit in them and they chill
out and they sort of don't much feel

like getting up and throwing punches.

That's so

Leana Tank: interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: And he said,
and then we put all sorts of nice

art on the walls, and he said,
and then we play classical music.

We pipe classical music.

And there was another place I knew
of this happening in a bad shopping

mall in another area of England that
can be quite violent, where local

youth were coming and, you know,
smashing up and looting and things.

And it, there was one of the shopkeepers
who'd, who'd read something similar

and he started piping classical music
from speakers that no one could get to.

And apparently he said it was amazing,
Rupert, that, that people just evaporated.

They, they just wouldn't hang out
there because they could be hungry.

Had to take their anchor somewhere else.

And it's, it's so interesting how in
these really practical situations.

What we know chills us out.

A comfy armchair, nice art on the
walls, nice lighting, classical music.

So why on earth again, wouldn't
that be an institutional staple?

Yeah, you know, again, maybe it comes
down to this idea that, well, they,

they've done wrong, they should suffer.

But of course it's, that's not just
in punitive, you know, criminal

justice places that's in schools,
and that's in places where people

are actually supposed to be nurtured.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

And I, yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't think it's, it's that matter
that like, oh, they don't deserve it or

they shouldn't have something comfortable.

I think it's just there's not a lot
of thought and intention given to it.

You know, when I, or the furniture that
is initially bought that will actually

hold up is not comfortable at all.

And, and that just is kind
of what sticks around.

And it's, it's just a cost thing.

You know, our, it's, there's not
much money for these folks at all.

There's not a lot of resources
for them to have a very

aesthetically pleasing environment.

And it is hard that, I mean,
they, when they are struggling.

The behaviors can be very destructive.

So there's holes in the walls,
there's the furniture gets destroyed.

You know, I've had a guy struggle
with autism when he would throw all

the furniture outside of the house
when he was struggling, you know?

So it's hard to have nice things
when that's the situation.

But

Rupert Isaacson: unless I suppose
you make the sofa and furniture so

heavy that it's just so difficult to
pick up that you, and that's Yeah.

We have now.

Yeah.

Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And that's what we have in
a lot of the places now.

But it's that, that kind of
furniture isn't super comfy.

You know?

It's not, and it's not very
aesthetically pleasing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

No, fair enough.

Maybe, maybe we need to start
enlisting designers for this.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So now I would like to talk a little
bit about how you maintain your own

resilience and one of the things that
I think everyone is struck by when they

know you and know what you do is how you
seem to retain this likeness of heart.

That there isn't a, you know, I, I
know quite a few people who work in

difficult situations with difficult
populations that there can be a

certain bitterness that can creep in.

I've never seen that in you.

I also happen to know, of course, that you
are an accomplished and avid horse woman.

And we have a mutual
friend Warwick Schiller.

That's how we know each other.

And those listeners who know
Warwick know that he's a horse

trainer, but also a podcaster.

And his thing is a attunement.

And that if you can attune to your
horse your hor your relationship with

your horse will change so radically
that things that seemed really, really

difficult for impossible suddenly
just become kind of every day.

And he, I think he's been born out in this
and that's why he's as popular as he is.

And I know that you followed
his attunement mm-hmm.

Stuff with horses.

Mm-hmm.

And I, you told me once in a, a
conversation that this had actually

helped you, this attunement
thing had actually mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Work.

Can you talk to us about how you
understand what, first, what's

your relationship with horses?

How does that impact your resilience?

And then talk to us about this
attunement thing and how one can

transfer sort of species to species.

Just wrap on that.

I, I, I'd like to know your thoughts.

Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Working with warwick's, like attunement
practices absolutely radically

changed the way I was able to work
with the people I worked with.

And I saw so many parallels.

So I'll talk about that in a minute here.

I.

Like I, yeah, I do.

I have my older two, I had two horses, my
older mare, Sonny, who is just my heart.

And I think that having that practice and
working with horses really, really is a

way for me to like, take care of myself.

And I think that to do this kind
of work with other people, you

have to very radically take care of
yourself and be really mindful of

your own mental and emotional health.

And people, our culture, like
really loves a martyr and really

perpetuates that kind of mindset
that you're supposed to just kind of

like sacrifice yourself to your job.

Any job.

Not, not even necessarily a job
in the human services field.

Like, it's just a culture
of kind of burnout.

And so I think for me, having
a horse really helps me keep

my own mental health level.

But I got involved in, in Warwick's
work when I got a young horse.

I got, I had this six month old Norwegian
fjord pony kind of fall into my lap.

And I had never, I.

Trained a horse before, like
started a horse as a baby.

And she was really challenging.

My older mare is very easy, very,
just like a joy to work with.

And this young horse was puff like she, I
would, she was, she was just like on you

all the time, kind of like nipping and
biting and you would try to like, create

space or like, I would read different
things like use a whip to back them

up and things, and she would just like
bite the whip and try to run me over.

And like she did not hair like what I did.

And that I somehow kind of like
stumbled upon warwick's approaches.

And his really connected, I think with
with me and like what I felt was possible

for me because I just don't, I don't
have a lot of that like really like

aggressive, intense energy, I think.

And I think my, that young horse
saw that in me and was just like,

I'm just gonna run all over her.

And I think I didn't have a
really good sense of, even

Rupert Isaacson: you, you say that though,
Leanna, but I, I know you well enough to

know, I've seen you in situations where it
is true, you don't get aggressive, but you

do very clearly express your boundaries.

If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Leana Tank: And that I
learned from my young horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

So it was not always so,

Leana Tank: no, I don't, not at all.

No.

That was a massive thing I learned from,
from that horse that she taught me.

But yet you must have been how to do that,

Rupert Isaacson: setting your boundaries
in, in, in the work that you do?

Leana Tank: I think, yes, but
it, it's gotten much, much more

intentional and much better.

Okay.

And I, this was maybe, gosh, this was
like four years ago that I started

working with this young horse and
started kind of down that path.

So, you know, it's been something I've
been developing for a little while now.

But yeah, I think, you know, it's
interesting how those horses, that

kind of horse will just kind of
like find your weaknesses and,

and like really show them to you.

And Warwick's work is very, very
like, trauma based, trauma informed,

you know, his work on, you know,
kind of built on this understanding

of the nervous system and polyvagal
theory and all of these things.

And these were all things that I
was a little bit aware of in the

periphery like through, through the
mental health work that I was doing.

And then, you know, kind
of in the horse world.

But I hadn't really.

He was the first one that kind of
like put it all together into one

place that really made sense to me.

And I also just really, really connected.

He would talk about being a little bit
emotionally shut down and kind of in his

head and not really in touch with his
own emotional life and, and experiences.

And I think that I was a
little bit in that place too.

Like I think through my upbringing
and through, through that kind of like

lack of emotional awareness or like
validation I just had never really

learned how to like actually feel those
feelings and, and connect with them and

let them process in a way that wasn't
just like intellectually in my head.

And so I think for me, I started
practicing his attunement

practices and he with my young
horse as a way to work with her.

Give us some examples of tools.

Yeah, I'll, because what he does, and I
think what it really is, is like a way to.

Physically embody the practice of becoming
an attuned person, which is something that

I don't think you can just read about and
learn about and understand it and do it.

You have to experience it and
embody it and practice it.

So he had, he has a flow chart that
he has videos on, and it's an actual

flow chart that you do with your horse
before you ask it to do anything.

So you show up without judgment, without
an expectation depending on what the

horse does, your whole intention is
to respond in a way that shows the

horse that you see them, that you
get them, that you kind of like, are

aware of what's going on with them.

That's the intention of the flow chart.

And it's, it's where you start before
you ask the horse to do anything.

And it, the intention is to get the horse
kind of in a calm, open, receptive state.

So you start, and like if the
horse is just kind of walking, you

just match steps with the horse.

And you literally just, wherever they
go in the arena, you just kind of match

their steps and follow along with 'em.

And if they stop, you stop.

And if they kind of look into the
distance, you just kind of like.

What are you looking at?

You look at them and if they seem like
they're kind of just tuning you out

there's a scratching for connection
tool that I also will use a lot on its

own, where you just kind of give them a
scratch and you wait and really watch and

see like for a little acknowledgement,
like a little ear flick or a blink or

for them to kind of turn and look at you
and then you stop scratching to show.

Like, I saw that and it's so
interesting because you'll see if

you do this with a horse, they'll
kind of like give you a double take.

When you do that a couple times they'll
kind of turn around and look at you

like, oh, are you listening to me?

Like, like it's, I've had this
experience with so many horses now

'cause I just kind of do it naturally.

And I'll have the same
experience with autistic people.

Like, if I am working with someone who
is not speaking or kind of in their own

little world and I do something that
kind of mirrors them or this, like, am am

using my, even like, sometimes I'll give
them little scratches or something and

I'll, I'll know I've made a connection
when they, I get the same look from them.

Like, oh, are you actually
paying attention to me?

Like, are you actually on my wavelength?

It's really interesting, but.

Anyway, so, so yeah, there's just
this whole very, very, very kind of

like organized thing that you do.

And I did it a lot with my young horse
and I kind of practiced it too with

like other horses I was taking care of.

And it just kind of like puts you in
this meditative flow centered space and

you, I would start to kind of find myself
going into that space, like working

with the people that I worked with too.

You know, being able to show up very
nonjudgmentally without expectation

and also really watching them for their
little signals of like when they were

getting upset or activated or anything.

To be able to kind of
reflect that back to them.

Like, oh, hey, I see you.

That's the intention.

And that really helps people
connect to themselves too.

So

Rupert Isaacson: is what we're talking
about here, really listening, but

listening on a cellular level, not just
on a kind of auditory processing level.

Leana Tank: It's kind of listening with
your whole body, but it is like you

kind of become that, you kind of become.

Safety.

Because for people like that sense that
somebody is really like seeing them and

hearing them is like safety for them.

Rupert Isaacson: And I guess with
horses it's a fight flight prey animal.

So if you can become safety,
then you're going to be able to

bridge the predator prey divide.

And I suppose when people are living
very much from the amygdala, then

they are effectively behaving like
a prey animal, which also might

have to fight for its life if that's
what it perceives it has to do.

Leana Tank: Yeah, I mean, I, I take
a lot of the, the big trauma courses

with the big trauma people like the
Peter Levine of Somatic Experiencing

and all of these, you know, different
names and like everyone's talking about

attunement as like the number one basis
for that, like relational healing of

trauma because that we as a species
feel safety with other people, you know.

Rupert Isaacson: And is, is attunement
something you think we should actually

all do in no matter what walk of life
to get along better and have less drama?

Leana Tank: Yeah, I
mean, I think it, it's.

It can go beyond just, you know,
attuning with other people.

I think that it, it's, you can
attune with other species of animals.

You can walk out in nature and experience
everything as kind of a communication.

You know, you're really looking, you're
looking to listen, you're looking for

like, okay, what is this saying to me?

What is, you know, what
am I taking from this?

So I think that it, it really is like
kind of a state of being you can get into.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So makes me think
of a recent conversation I had

with Craig Foster, who made that
amazing film, my octopus teacher.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But you

Rupert Isaacson: know, where
if, if one wants to see a tuning

and crossing a species divide,
you know, that's it, I think.

Mm-hmm.

But one of the things that he points
out, which I think is in line with

what you're saying, is that one's
relationship with one's environment,

IE the planet, IE, other people,
IE the weather, IE vegetation, IE,

the noticing the slug trails on.

Paving stones in London and noticing
that there are these little tooth marks

where they're actually eating the algae.

And that if you begin to attune
to this level, whether it's with

individuals or with something like
that, as you say, I think you, you put

it there that it's actually, that the
environment is communicating with you.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And that, that is
actually the natural human condition.

And I think to be divorced from that leads
to, well, let's say poor mental health.

We know that we've got a loneliness
epidemic and particularly in men, young

men, and this is something we could maybe
go into in another podcast because I

think that's, its, I'm actually thinking
about doing a whole series on this

because I think it's one, become one
of the sort of epidemics of our time.

You are dealing with
severely lonely people.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Most

Rupert Isaacson: of the, many of them
are, but this attunement and being able

to help people attune with the environment
back to you say, or take them into nature,

how do you help them without it being
like, do you notice the tree and how

it's moving, you know, without, without
sounding kind of like, this is forced

fun now, or something where people just
gonna automatically rebel against that.

Mm-hmm.

How do you, how do you help people with
this kind of despair and loneliness?

Find this attunement and
what effects do you notice?

Leana Tank: Yeah, I mean, so how we
learn attunement, like how we learn to

be connected to ourselves and to feel
our emotions and express 'em in all of

these, like, we're supposed to learn that
from our parents and childhood, right?

And so we start learning it in,
in infancy when our parents kind

of like respond to our needs.

Sure.

And, and, and, you know, show us even
kind of like that back and forth, like

smiling back and forth with your child.

Kind of kickstarts that
part of your brain.

It's like the right frontal lobe.

That is where we do a
lot of that connection.

And so when I am practicing in a
very intentional way that attunement

with the people I work with, they
are like learning it from me.

Just, they're just absorbing it.

And I will often kind of narrate
what I see, so I'm not like teaching

them or telling them something.

But I am maybe observing like.

Oh, I just notice that you are
like holding your breath and

you seem really tense right now.

Are you feeling a little
anxious about something?

You know, I might, you have to stay
more in like, curiosity than telling.

So I might just like very curiously
observe like, you know, are you

a little worried about this?

Or I noticed, oh, hey, like, I remember
working with one guy who was totally in

his own world staring into space and I was
just kind of like, what's he looking at?

You know?

And I noticed, oh, he is looking
at like the clouds over there.

So I was just like, is there's some
interesting clouds kind of dark.

Maybe it's gonna rain, you know?

And he is like, yeah,
I think it might rain.

And that was actually a reality based
response to me that he gave that

he was actually before that it was
like there was nothing, you know?

And that was kind of my in, right?

So you're kind of just looking for
your way in to further that connection.

And I've had these experiences, you
know, like, like walking in nature.

And things will just kind of come up,
you know, like, we'll run into a little.

Wooly bear Caterpillar, and it'll turn
into this whole conversation about their

childhood and, and their mother who had
different superstitions about, you know,

the Caterpillar bands and what that means.

And I've even had like how you know,
just like really beautiful moments of

like, I was walking with a this man
who also very disconnected from reality

and we're walking and like all of a
sudden these little butterflies come

and just kind of like spiral around us
and it's just like this little moment of

joy that then I can kind of like refer
back to at different times to kind of

like build that sense of connection.

But you're really just

really trying to stay present and
in the moment and ready for like

whatever opportunities come up to
help them connect to themselves and

connect to the environment outside
of them and like connect to me

because a lot of these mental health
con conditions are really just like

problems of like connect disconnection.

They're disconnected from their
own emotional experiences, are

disconnected from other people.

They're disconnected from
the world around them.

And.

Using like movement in nature and you
can, you know, if you think about,

like, I've learned a little bit
about even like EMDR and processing

trauma just through eyes moving
from left to right to left to right.

It's like integrating the right
and left hemispheres of the brain.

And I can incorporate that if we're
walking outside in nature just by being

like, oh look, there's a bird over there.

Or look, there's the cloud over there.

Let's look at the colors of the trees.

And I can guide that to look to
the right and look to the left.

And they don't even know
that's what I'm doing.

You know,

Rupert Isaacson: not everyone who's
listening will know what E MDR R is.

And I, I think it's fascinating.

I've had a little bit of it myself
and it absolutely healed a trauma

that I had in about 10 minutes.

It was mm-hmm.

It was extraordinary.

Mm-hmm.

Talk to, just for the listeners that
aren't familiar with it, can you

just walk us through what that is?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

It's, it's a, it's a trauma tool.

It's like very, very well established
for healing, especially kind of

those, like, especially at the
shock traumas or like if you've had

like a one traumatic event mm-hmm.

That gets the, gets kinda lodged in
the, in the brain and the body and.

It started with a psych psychologist.

I think noticing that when someone
was processing something, their

eyes were kind of moving from
right to left and right to left.

And from that developed this whole
modality where someone can be kind

of, even, they don't necessarily even
have to be talking about the trauma.

They can just be kind of thinking
about it internally, but shifting

their eyes from left to right.

And now there's even tapping the left
side and right side of the body that

people will do, or there's even like
a musical modality where they listen

to headphones, a tone left and right.

But there's something about the activation
of the different hemispheres and the

different sides of the brain with the
trauma processing that just speeds along

the ability of the brain to like integrate
that trauma and process it through.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Eye
movement desensitization.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Processing EMD.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

So you can sort of in, you can incorporate
that into a nature walk by guiding.

Mm-hmm.

The movement of their eyes.

Mm-hmm.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

And even, you know, when somebody is in
a little bit more of like a freeze state,

their eyes just naturally kind of lock.

Mm-hmm.

And they don't really scan
their environment much.

Like everything is just
kind of rigid and stiff.

And I can see it in the way they move
and I can see it in their posture.

And in just kind of a playful, fun
way, I can shift them outta that

state by looking around or even,
like, I will loosen up the way I walk

and maybe I'll say like, Ooh, you're
like not looking where you're going.

Like, let's look out for trees.

Let's look out for what we're doing.

You know, and then that might
kind of create a little bit of

a shift in their nervous system.

And I've actually seen really,
really massive powerful shifts in

people's engagement and in their, in
their posture and the way they move.

And then in the way they kind of
are able to do lots of other things.

There's this like reciprocal.

Mirroring between people's kind
of emotional states and then their

bodies, the way their bodies present.

And you can kind of like come from,
it's like there's this idea of like

top down processing and bottom up.

And the top down would be trying
to like, manage the thoughts and

manage the ideas like in their head.

And there's like different therapy
modalities that do that, like that, sit

in an office and like talk about it,
you know, cognitive behavioral therapy

or you can come from the bottom up and
you can try to facilitate more space in

their system through like movement, you
know, and that sometimes shifts things

more powerfully emotionally than trying
to come in through the, the intellect.

And for a lot of the people that I work
with, they don't have, the intellect

isn't there, that foundation isn't
really there to begin with because

they have an intellectual disability.

Or, you know, they're just not in
a space because of their trauma

or their ABD being activated where
they're gonna like be able to like

cognitively process through things.

And so you have to come at
it from a different angle.

Rupert Isaacson: It's it's interesting.

There seem to be quite a lot of studies
at the moment coming out that cognitive

behavioral therapy talk therapy works.

Perhaps quite well for certain
populations, but not for others.

And it seems that men and
particularly young men do not

really respond to it that well.

And this is now, it is just interesting.

It seems a number of
studies are coming out.

And I certainly know from my own
point of view that when I had anything

like that, it just felt awful.

It just felt like I was, I was a dog that
had done a do-do on the floor, and it was

having my nose rubbed in it, you know, it
made me wanna jump off a bridge, you know?

But, and of course, as, as we now know
with the science of, of movement, you

know, this protein in the brain, brain
derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF as the

neuroscientists call it which sort of
changes your brain chemistry, your brain

structure opens up your intellect, makes
you, you know, it's cognitively optimal.

Movement is key for this.

And of course, men, young men in
particular, very physical creatures.

I'm not saying all genders are not,
but it, it seems to be particularly

acute with that population.

Do you, was there a moment when
you realized, oh my gosh, yes.

Movement's the key, and

I mean, obviously you're an
occupational therapist, so it comes

a little bit with the territory.

But obviously you must have
also tried to talk with people,

in that more top down way.

At what point do you think
it really became clear to

you that Yeah, it's movement.

Leana Tank: I mean, I think I've always
been really fascinated with movement

and I think that when I came into the
mental health world, I started more

in the physical disability world.

I, the first six years of my career
was more in like rehabilitation and I

did a lot with neuro rehabilitation for
people who'd had strokes and things.

So I did neurodevelopmental training,
which is a lot of facilitating movement

and, and getting muscles to move that
haven't moved before and things like that.

And then sensory integration,
which that is all about movement.

Like when you think about the
sensory systems, when we learn

sensory integration, when you're
actually doing it it's foundational

that you are moving and activating
like deep pressure, the vestibular

system, like the sense of balance.

And I.

Proprioception, which is your
sense of body awareness and space.

And it's not sensory integration if
you're not integrating some other sense

with those foundational senses because
they give you a sense of security,

safety and who you are in the world.

And that was a little bit my
background coming into mental health.

So I was already really fascinated
with how those concepts played into

mental health and the psychiatric
conditions that I was seeing.

And then when I was working
with people, I just saw movement

challenges everywhere, you know?

And I think that as an ot, I was a little
uniquely positioned to know what I was

looking at because I would see somebody
as being very challenged with their

coordination and their motor planning.

And like, you know, they're spilling
their food and they're having

trouble like holding their spoon
and they're kind of slouched.

And I asked the staff like, what,
you know, what do you think's

going on with this person?

And they were like, well, I
just thought they were lazy.

And, you know, for me, I'm like,
they are dyspraxic, which is like

somebody who just can't, doesn't have
an awareness of their body and space.

Or people are labeled as having like
boundary issues because they are walking

up and talking to you really close
and getting in your personal space.

But what I would see was that they
just don't have a good sense of

like their body's position in space.

I would see a lot of like asymmetries
and posture or just collapsed postures,

low muscle tone and, and through.

And so I was just like really,
really fascinated about like, what's

going on with all that because they
don't have a physical disability,

they have a psychiatric diagnosis,
and how is this, like, what, what's

being mirrored in their neurobiology?

And I, you know, so I've, in different
like learnings and research and courses

I've taken, like, you know, I feel
like I have really, really evolved

in my understanding of like how all
of those things interplay and, and

what's showing up for people and how
to kind of read it and work with it.

But I think it's kind of a newer growing
area of understanding because when I

first started in this field 10 years
ago, I couldn't find anything like I.

I could, I, every, all the research and
everything was just with kids like kids

with autism and not adults and not adults
with other neuropsychiatric conditions.

So that, you know, I mean, that's part
of why I was like so fascinated with

like, things like movement method.

I was fascinated with anything that
would talk about movement with autism

or other mental health conditions
because I, I feel like it's an area

that's still not very well understood.

Rupert Isaacson: We touch on your
relationship with your horse and how you

use that for your own resilience, how it's
also helped you with attunement to attune

to the populations that you work with.

We've also talked about nature, we've
talked about movement, obviously

working with animals, obviously
working with large animals, obviously

particularly working something like
a horse presumably brings all of

these things together, synthesizing.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Have you had a
chance, and obviously these facilities

are not equine, but have you had
a chance to bring that into the

work with some of your population?

If so, could you talk just about how and

your ideas for developing
this a little bit?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

So we do have a partnership with a therapy
barn where we could create a little group.

I'll bring a group from one
of the programs I go to, which

is a pretty cool program.

It it's, it's one of our more
intensive programs men and women.

A lot of them have a pretty
significant cognitive impairments,

but also psychiatric conditions
challenging behaviors and really high

staffing ratios, really small homes.

So a lot of support.

And so I will bring a group of them out
to this farm, and they will do a little

bit of work for about a half an hour.

So they'll help clean the
pastures, or maybe they'll give

a horse a bath or clean tack.

And then they get to ride the, they
have these great big draft horses

and, you know, really, really calm.

And they kind of just give them like a
pony ride, you know, or like, take 'em on.

They have some trails, so they'll
take 'em on the trails and they

don't, it's nothing too elaborate,
but it is, has been great for them.

You know, we I never have any behavioral
challenges when we take them there.

They, that's interesting.

Feel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why,

Rupert Isaacson: why do, why,

Leana Tank: you know.

I think they're all just so engaged and
interested in what they're doing, and they

feel like they have this like, sense of
purpose and they're excited to be there.

And yeah, they're just like, there's,
there's nothing going on that is gonna

like trigger their particular challenge.

And, and you know, I'll have people
that need more support and I certainly

dot have to be proactive, won't have

Rupert Isaacson: example, like, I don't
think this horse likes me, or the crows

over there are saying bad things about me.

I, I use that one because I
actually know someone who has that

particular psychosis about Crohn.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you find
that that actually quietens

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That EQU therapy?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I do, I have brought people there
who do struggle with those kinds of

challenges and that's not really,
they have like the best time there.

Rupert Isaacson: So what's going on?

What's special about the horse?

Leana Tank: Well, I mean, I think we know
like that the horses do like project kind

of calm and they have their, you know,
large electromagnetic field from their

heart, you know, that is very regulating.

I think they elicit a kind of
respect from a lot of our people.

I think that they.

Will are more apt to actually be motivated
to like, follow safety rules and,

and, and policies and things like that
because they actually, it's clearly a

large, there's this really large animal.

Yeah.

And it's so funny, we had one guy we
would bring who's like a pretty big dude,

pretty like rough and tumble, big guy.

And he was really scared, like
really scared of the horses.

He actually didn't come back and
he was even the mini, we'd get

out a mini horse and that was act.

He was just intimidated and scared.

Some of like the biggest, most
heavy hitting people have,

like the most fear honestly.

But yeah.

Yeah.

I think I have people, it's like the
middle of winter right now and we're

not really going for like a month while
it's, you know, five degrees outside.

And everyone's still bugging me
about wanting to go because I think

they don't often get to feel like
they are productive or giving back,

or that they are, you know, like
really contributing to something.

And I think that's something that is
really lacking for this group of people.

It's, you know, they, the, the, in the
mental health lingo, they're labeled as

consumers is like what they get called.

Because they consume
mental health resources.

And I just, I really hate that term
because it just kind of puts them in

this position that they just take, take,
take and they have nothing to give.

And I think it's really
important for people to feel

like they have something to give.

And so having them come and like,
feel like they're taking care of the

horses and then they get to ride.

And I've seen like wild, I
had another person with this

very like, strange posture.

They were like very, very crooked and
for like, there's no medical reason,

but when they got on the horse, they're
just completely straight and aligned.

And I could use that
body sensation later on.

We could talk about it and be like,
Hey, remember what it felt like, you

know, when you were on the horse?

Can you kind of like
find that feeling again?

And they could kind of straighten
up and like we could kind of use

that new sense in their body of
like what straight felt like to like

bring that forward into their life.

And now they're straight actually.

Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: You know,

obviously my story might work, you know,
with horses it's time and time again.

We've seen things that one regards as
miraculous, but happen so often that.

We have to then start saying, well, is
it a miracle or is it actually just the

product of, as you say, electromagnetic
resonance of the heart, you know,

production of certain hormones, oxytocin,
et cetera, BDNF in the brain, but all

coming together in a perfect cocktail,
in the right sensory environment.

A lot of studies have also shown that
when people engage in animal assisted

therapies, they tend to finish the program
because they have a relationship with the

animal and they want to keep coming back.

Can also be with dogs, for example.

But particularly with equine, it seems
that horses, I guess they're so beautiful

aesthetically, they make us feel good
in a way that I think very few other

animals in this idea that they carry us.

Maybe y you know, ke Sullivan
university of Bournemouth, she's

affiliated there, you know, researcher.

They did a study that in domestic
violence, people who mm-hmm.

Had been perpetrators of domestic violence
going to equine assisted programs.

Not only finishing the program,
but apparently a 51% reduction

in domestic violence, even one
year after the program had ended.

So it does seem that
there's a, a massively

still to be properly explored

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

In here within

Rupert Isaacson: mental health.

Can you yourself, I mean,
you, you have a certain amount

of autonomy in, in your job.

You, you are looking after
quite a few facilities, you're

traveling between them people are
listening to you to some degree.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Have you
got plans to develop more the

nature, the art, the equine?

Where's it going?

Leana Tank: Yeah, you know, I, I feel like
I've been doing this long enough now that

I feel like I have a pretty good idea of
what you get the most bang for your buck.

You know, in terms of like programming and
like implementing and, and scaling things.

'cause I'm always thinking about
how to be as effective as I can.

'cause I do cover like a lot of
programs and I can only do so much

like working one-on-one with people.

And I really find like trying to
support the staff in these programs

is really, really important.

The.

They are the ones that are, that like
source of relationship for the people

in the programs and they really create a
lot of the culture and I've seen really

good staff be the source of like so
much progress and healing for people.

And then I've seen staff just
completely torpedo people's progress.

And I, I do like, I have a really, really
a lot of compassion and care for the

people that I work with, but also for
like, the people that are supporting them.

'cause it's a really, really hard job
and they're not given a lot of resources.

They're, they're kind of expected to be
the bandaid on a really broken system

and they're kind of like sandwiched
in the middle of these really, really

challenging you know, residents.

And that a system that is like
always more and more demanding.

So like finding ways to support
the staff so that they can support

the people that they work with, I
think is like something I really,

really would like to develop and do.

I ideally, I would love all
the staff to be able to like.

Go do an attunement workshop, you know,
and like learn like how to like really

embody it because I think that it if you
can kinda work from that kind of a space,

it actually like prevents burnout too.

'cause you're not always like
controlling and resisting and it's,

you know, I think it just I think,
I think that would be a really nice

thing to be able to give people.

And yeah, like being able to
really look at the environments,

look at bringing in more nature.

Look at, I think a lot of the groups and
things still tend to be very cognitive.

And I would love to see more
intentionality in the programs around

designing groups and activities for the
residents that are more like humanity

building, like more music groups, more
just group dancing, more drumming, more

just things that we know, like promote
a good, healthy nervous system and

connection and, and all of that stuff
without it feeling like a therapy group.

So I'm, I'm kind of working to
try to build those into different

programs that are open to it.

So stuff like that.

More, more awareness for
staff, more training.

A lot of them come in from
like a high school diploma.

You know, or it's their first job, or
maybe they worked in like a factory

and it's kind of a, a low bar of entry.

And not the highest paying and not it's
just not a very valued job in our economy.

But it's actually highly,
requires a high degree of skill.

I mean, if you think about it,

Rupert Isaacson: well undervalued
Well, people looking after

other undervalued people.

Leana Tank: Exactly.

Yeah.

Yep.

Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: W what, you know,
as you talk, and it's interesting

'cause we, we we're approaching
now, I think we've probably just

over the two hour mark and mm-hmm.

I could keep going and I think I, I'm
gonna have ask you to come back on

actually, and there's a, a number of
things I think listeners and myself

would like to go into more detail on,
but what springs to mind as you begin

to, as you're talking now about those
systems, is those communities and

the staff there and the people living
in them, it sounds like families.

And oftentimes our family dynamics are
not as functional as they could be.

What can, let's say you switch hats and
you became a family therapist having

brought in the insights of working.

At this high stakes type, human
community environment, what are like

the five count 'em on your fingers
type things that all of us who are

parents, who are spouses, who are kids
ourselves to older parents, what are the

things that you feel if everybody did

it, would just ease

everybody's life?

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, the first thing
that comes to mind is that idea of

really radical acceptance and just
letting people be who they are.

And I think that is something I think
about that a lot as a parent and thinking

about how I was parented to kind of
be molded in a certain direction.

But instead to look at it as I'm
an apparent, as a way to kind of

just discover who this person is
and help them be more of who they

are and just celebrate, celebrate
what we all discover together.

Taking that.

Attitude of like, or I guess looking
at what your expectations are and what

your judgments are about what this
person should be, who they are, what

their life should look like, and being
able to just really radically let go

of that and just see who this person is
that's kind of creating themselves in

front of you is something that I think,
you know, will feel very, very, very

freeing and validating to the person that
is like on the receiving end of that.

Something I wish I would've had.

And I think, you know, and,
and I do try to do that for

the people I'm working with.

I try not to bring my judgments and my
notions about who they are and who they

should be and where they should be at.

You know, I think when you get into
that mindset of where you should be,

that kind of puts you in this like
frozen state of immobility, like you

can't really move forward from there.

You have to be totally accepting of
where things are before you can take

those next steps of moving on from there.

So I think a lot of it is looking at your
judgments, looking at your expectations,

and being very, very accepting of
where things are and knowing that.

If you can get to that space, things
can actually change really, really

fast and really radically in ways
that you don't even realize it.

I think looking at, always trying to
look at what's going on underneath the

problem or the behavior that you're
seeing that when you're seeing a

behavior that's not so, nice, you know,
or challenging or not so constructive,

like getting curious about it, you
know, before you just go right to like

shaming it or trying to shut it down.

Looking at it with curiosity and
trying to figure out now what's

really going on underneath, you know,
is there an underlying stressor and

anxiety, a lack of safety, a lack of
connection, you know, there's always

something going on under the surface.

There's always a reason for it.

And sometimes the answer isn't this
direct addressing of the behavior,

but it's more something else that
needs more support or is lacking.

Rupert Isaacson: It's funny,
one often thinks of family as.

One's relationship with one's kids.

So often we don't do this
with our spouses either.

You know, we have this kind
of, well, you should, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You're an intelligent person and you
should blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, with our kids, you
know, we, hopefully anyway we

can give them a bit more leeway.

But it's so interesting, isn't it, how
little we let each other off the hook

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: As spouses, when we're
actually on this boat together and mm-hmm.

Supposedly pulling on the same ropes
and manning the same rudder and

down in the engine room trying to
figure out what's up with the boiler.

But what I think what you said about
radical acceptance is, is really useful.

And I think I would like you
to come back on and I'd like to

explore that in greater depth.

And I'm hoping that you will begin to
run some workshops and some retreats

on this concept of radical acceptance.

And I will absolutely put my money
down and come because I think you

have an unusual set of qualifications
to give you those insights, which

I think are, are, are, are rare.

And I'm going to read you
something that you wrote to me.

Leana Tank: Gosh.

Oh no.

Rupert Isaacson: Which I felt,
that's why I asked you to come

really on, on, on the show.

I mean, obviously you're awesome and
why would one not want you on the show?

But it was particularly, it was back
on the 21st of December actually, and

I had been introducing you to a group
of people and said, you know, wow.

The work she does and the population
she works with, it's, it's so extreme.

I, you know, I dunno if I could do
it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And, you know, I'd meant
that as a compliment.

And this is what I mean by how
well you handle boundaries.

It's very elegant.

I, it made me, it made me sit up and
I, I just want listeners to hear this

and say, so with your permission,
I'm gonna read this 'cause we, okay.

Leana Tank: Okay.

Anyway,

Rupert Isaacson: but I'm gonna
pretend I'm asking you permission.

Okay.

So you wrote, the way you ask me to
explain the folk I work with never quite

sits right with me, and I haven't been
sure why, but I think I can articulate it.

So I'm gonna try not to
make you feel bad at all.

More just for my own clarity.

I feel like they're being made
out to be these monsters and

they're not, they're like the
most sensitive, vulnerable of all.

And the ones that are paying
the cost of an inhumane culture,

they're, they're the shadow
side and we are all capable.

Of any of the things they've done,
which is why I think they make

people really uncomfortable and
they get stuck into the margins.

Beautiful things can be dangerous
and outta control, like a poison

plant, but like a poison plant.

They still have a place in the world.

They just need to be treated with
extra care and respect, but they're not

monsters totally just as human as anyone.

And we all have these parts in us.

People have a hard time facing that.

So the ones who can't hide it get
labeled monsters and completely othered.

I want to find a way to talk about
them that doesn't make them so othered.

Same, doesn't make them seem so
othered, if that makes sense.

I think that was one of the most
insightful things anyone has ever

written to me and that I've ever read.

And this idea of the poison plant
resonated because it's what are

poison plants often, but medicine?

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

So many

Rupert Isaacson: of the medicines that
we take are extracted from plants where

if we didn't get the dosage right.

It could kill us or knock us out
or have some very severe effect.

But if we can get the dosage right,
it's incredibly ameliorative.

And in fact, the entire drug industry
is based around those plant compounds.

So anything that you can think of that's
been used as a poison, like hemlock or

nightshade or any of these
things are also medicines.

Very powerful, very good medicines.

Things that have strong psychoactive
effects on us, like dacher or ayahuasca

or peyote or these strong, strong
hallucinogens that could induce

psychosis in the wrong setting, in
the wrong environment, if misused

also are incredibly healing.

And I think that you are

bringing our attention to these,
to this population of people

that can actually heal us.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Because it

Rupert Isaacson: can make us
accept those parts of ourself

and not have to other ourselves.

I think there's a, there's
a real merit in that.

But, but it's not talked about
because it's outside of our can.

I've also noticed that in the hunter
gatherer communities I've lived

in, although you do definitely see
psychosis, that psychosis is almost

always channeled into healing.

Mm-hmm.

So the person with schizophrenia
or whatever tends not to do.

Something destructive to the community.

Often that person is the shaman.

Whenever I saw things happening that
were destructive to the community,

it had always been where people
have been displaced and put in,

you know, marginal environments and
dispossessed and traumatized and

given alcohol and, you know, okay.

But in the, in the, you know, any
of us in that situation do the same

thing, but in the right environment
know that the psychosis was

actually a, a mechanism for healing.

As we close, can you just
give us your thoughts on that?

Psychosis and healing?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, a lot of what you just said
definitely resonates, and I feel

like in a lot of ways this group
of people have been my teachers.

You know, I've never had the
chance to work with a shaman,

you know, or learned from really.

I haven't had these really strong
like mentors in this, in this field.

I feel like all my learning has
been from these people themselves.

And they've taught me a lot.

I think there's a lot to learn from them.

If you are.

In a space where you can hear,
hear what they have to teach.

And, and in my experience too,
that sensitivity, you know, they,

they are the most sensitive of us.

And, and when I am working with them
in a way that honors that and sees

that and acknowledges that and I have
this awareness a little bit of like,

when you're working more from, from
the heart and from understanding like

people's energy and connection and
connection to the earth, like they

really, really resonate with that.

I, I work with people who they're very
sensitive to if the lights are on or off

or where's the furniture in the room, and
they'll talk about things in terms of like

good energy and bad energy and their qi
and, and, and it's perceived as part of

their mental illness and their psychosis.

But when I'm looking at it, I'm like,
but it kind of makes sense, you know,

like, I know what they're trying to say.

I think that there is even in the most
like, out of touch, you know, kind of

like, psychotic sounding statements.

There's an underlying sense to it,
emotional sense, symbolic sense.

And, and like, I'm not the arbiter
of like, reality, you know, like I

think it's important that we're not
always thinking like, I'm the one who's

right about reality and they're wrong.

I think there's these shared realities.

There's kind of the general consensus
of what reality is, and then there's

people that are perceiving things
on a very different level and, and

expressing it in a different way.

And who's to say that they're
not perceiving something

that we just can't perceive?

You know, there's, there's a lot
out there that we don't understand.

So, so yeah, I mean, I, it, it's
honestly a really beautiful, interesting,

you know, lovely group of people to
work with and know, and I'm act I'm

really sad that the general population
doesn't get to know these people.

And I, and because of confidentiality
and privacy and things, I can't give a

lot of specific stories because they're
such characters and they're such unique

human, real fabulous people that like.

Any one of you would enjoy.

So it's hard for me to be able
to explain that without getting

into a lot of specific details.

But yeah, I think, listen, it's

Rupert Isaacson: just to hear
that you say, well, I, I work

with this population every day.

That what they weren't expecting,
what none of us would expect to hear

is, and they're fabulous people.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Which

Rupert Isaacson: we must all be
fabulous people because if they're

fabulous by nature, by by, by, by
definition, by extension, surely,

therefore, the rest of us must be, and
we all go around beating ourselves up.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But thank you.

Also, you know, we get into
this conversation a lot here

about self-actualization.

And I think there's no question,
you, you know, you, you, your working

life, your, how it's brought into
your own personal life and so on.

It's, I think you are a shining
example of someone who's in the

process of constant self-actualization.

But what's interesting is the people
that you're working with, you know,

I think we, we do actually, funnily
enough, have a place for the psychotic

in our culture, for self recognizing
self-actualization, if we call it genius.

Mm-hmm.

And then you can have
someone who's insane.

You can have, you know, a Vincent
Van Gogh, or you can have mm-hmm.

I can never remember the name
of the, a high selling Japanese

artist who, who lives in a shut
in a lockdown, but she mm-hmm.

You know, amazing stuff, you know,
or a musician or something in the

arts, or a mad scientist or something.

We can, but what's interesting to
me here is that we sort of reserve

that respect for those ones that are
so clearly productive in that way.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But

Rupert Isaacson: of course, not
everyone can go around being a genius.

And not every type of genius is
obvious, and not every genius is

necessarily productive in that way.

Perhaps it might

be of comfort to, and part of a
self-actualization process for the

people that you work with to know that
they help us, perhaps to heal ourselves.

Might that be worth communicating?

And if you are, if you are the advocate,
if you are the person who can relay

that message both to us and to them,
when are you gonna write a book?

Because we, because I, I
haven't read any, anything.

Yeah.

Like this.

And it's, it's, I think this is, this is.

Necessary is, you know, well
what's necessary, you know,

an apple tree is necessary.

Mm-hmm.

You know, growing a wheat.

But I think it is necessary in terms
of, because I, I I, I also believe

that in the culture that we're in, none
of us is meant, is not mentally ill

because none of us are living in the
environment that we we're designed for.

So how can we not go mad on the stress?

It's just that some forms of madness are

more,

Leana Tank: more, more acceptable.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

You know, can, can be, let's
say more easily assimilated.

Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But I think

Rupert Isaacson: we all know
bonkers, you know, and umhmm that

therefore the grace of God go.

I feeling

closing words also.

You don't yet, you're not at the point,
you know, a lot of people I interview,

you know, they have websites or, you know

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Contacting to my
knowledge you don't, and I, no, don't

think you probably wanna be giving
out your email on the, in the thing,

but if people were to contact me

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Questions

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Including when
is Leanna gonna run a retreat

Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

And a

Rupert Isaacson: training.

I will be very happy to relay those.

And I think.

If you would put together some sort
of initial retreat or training.

Here we are, I should date this.

We are in February, 2025.

If you're listening to this, five years
from now, she's probably already a me

mega celebrity in mental health instead
of Leanna, but we got here first.

So

is that how we should do it, do you think?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

That, that might be the best.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm still kind of like in the
process of figuring out what

that all might look like.

You know, I get very torn because I feel
very committed to the group of people I

work with, and I very much feel like I am
always gonna work with that population.

Like, I just would be sad not to.

But I also do feel very, a very strong
sense of wanting to share like, the

things that I've learned, you know, and,
and, and, and support the people who

are supporting these people and kind
of like spread a better understanding

and awareness for them story.

I'm sure he wanted both.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What we hope
is that what that looks like?

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Or at least
an advisor to lawmakers.

Leana Tank: Yeah.

Yep.

I would love to support a better
world for, for them, for sure.

In any way I can.

So, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Leanna, it's been brilliant.

Thank you.

Leana Tank: Yeah, thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: I look
forward to the conversation.

Alright, my friend.

Leana Tank: All right,

Rupert Isaacson: so bye.

So anyone listening, if you wanna
get in touch with her, contact us.

You've got all the email links and
website links, and if you want to put

your name down for a retreat and training
with this clear genius send it to us.

We'll get a group of you together
and we'll figure out where to do it.

Could be stateside, could be Europe side.

Could be both.

Why not?

Okay.

All right.

We'll come sit at your feet.

Okay.

Till next time.

Leana Tank: All right,

Rupert Isaacson: bye.

Thank you.

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