Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
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And over the last 20 years,
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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

Today I've got Helen Sharp.

Helen writes for the Irish
Field Farmers Weekly.

She's a big fish in the Irish
equestrian world, but she also runs

Groundwork, which is a, an equine
assisted charity up in Northern Ireland.

Those of you who listened to my podcast
with Terry Brosnan know that the

work she does in Ireland is largely
informed by her childhood in the

North and growing up in the troubles
against that background of violence.

And I was very lucky through Terry
to meet Helen who works in the North.

Not just in the equine assisted field,
but in the art field and pulling the

therapeutic value of art and horses
together in a rather extraordinary way.

And she of course, has her own story
that has brought her to a point of

compassion where she can help the
people that come in front of her.

So up in county firma, which is
about as north as you can get

there she is doing amazing stuff
and also helping Thoroughbreds.

I think I'm right.

Coming off the track.

So she's helping in multiple fields and
it's very easy to forget that Northern

Ireland is a bit like the Balkans in
that the violence can erupt at any time.

And the tensions that have existed there
for centuries, simmer below the surface.

Even though we are in a peace process
now, those old tribal divisions,

those old cultural conflicts

remain.

And it takes a brave person to
stand in that and offer love.

So Helen, welcome to Equine Assisted.

Well, thank you for coming on.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

Helen Sharp: Thank you very
much for having me on it.

It really is truly an honor.

So my, yeah, my name's Helen Sharp.

I think I would say I'm
fundamentally an equine journalist.

Horse, woman.

And I founded alongside, and I have
to say, whenever I'm talking about

groundwork, EQU assisted services,
I'm also talking about Fiona

Butchart, who I set up groundwork
with, and she's a horse woman.

She's interested in actually western
riding and training, and she would

describe herself as the horse
person, not the, not the person

person, not the people person.

So, yeah, we set, we set that up together.

And we are just on the border actually
of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and

it puts us in a very unique place.

Rupert Isaacson: Why do you do what you do
and what do you do up there at groundwork?

Helen Sharp: So groundwork
is quite specific.

I think in the grand scheme of
equine assisted services, we're

quite specific because we very much.

Do cater for the Northern Irish
community and the border community.

I suppose there's a lot of shock, shock
and statistics really in Northern Ireland.

39% of the, like, what
39% of the population have

recorded mental health issues.

There's a 25% higher rate of
mental health disorders than

there is in the rest of the uk.

12.6

percent of kids and young people
experience depression anxiety, which is a

25% higher rate than the rest of the uk.

Police and military veterans
remain a significant concern.

Actually that's just been
detailed in a very recent report

with the Royal College of.

Psychiatrists in a report just in January
there said Mental health crisis in

Northern Ireland cannot be overstated.

So that gives you a kind
of vibe of how things are.

But groundwork really set up because I
have a collection of my own horses and I

breed a few horses, and my yard is part of
an estate that is, there's two neighboring

estates run by the Brook family.

And Lord Brook Brooke set up a charity
on his land called Brook House.

Now, Brook House are a charity
for veterans and military military

and police veterans and serving
police officers actually, and

their family and their carers.

And I was working away with my own
horses and I've done you know, an equine

therapist and things and I, but I've got
an interest in EQU assisted services too.

And I've been working with a
charity in France, which we'll

probably talk about later.

And I was sitting having a cup of tea with
Fiona one day and the power of the cup

of tea and talking about her interests
and she wasn't expressing an interest.

And we literally just put
together a proposal and pitched

it to Brooke House and said.

You are offering these guys
already holistic sort of,

services, massage and things.

But the interesting thing
about it is there's also a

psych, a psychologist on site.

There are wellbeing managers on site.

They have a therapeutic garden,
so there's a walled garden that's

a working kitchen garden, but
the head garden is the counselor.

And I was kind of thinking, well,
the only thing missing here is horses

obviously, you know, so we just
pitched an idea and thankfully that

Brook house bit our handoff actually.

So that gave us the
incentive to build a program.

So that would be about, I
think it's about two and a half

years ago to build a program.

And then Brooke House funded some
brilliant programs and that's

how it kicked off actually.

Rupert Isaacson: How long ago was that?

Helen Sharp: It was about probably three
years that we started talks and then

started about two and a half years ago.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So it's relatively recent.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

And

Rupert Isaacson: talk us
through the work you do now.

Who do you work with mostly?

What are your approaches?

Helen Sharp: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: what are
the successes you've seen?

Helen Sharp: So I kind
of describe it right.

You're wrongly like a deconstructed eg.

Gala model, I suppose, in that I have,
you know, I've done a qualification

for equine assisted learning.

Fiona is a qualified, you know, BHS,
everything and all those boxes ticked.

But then our clients also have their
own wellness managers from behi.

And then we also have the psychologist
who talks to us as well as the clients.

Okay.

So it's kind of a, it's kind of
spread out over this thousand acres.

We do mainly groundwork.

So we do group sessions
and 10 week group sessions.

And they're really interesting
because we get such a mix.

So you might have in the same group,
you might have someone who's can't

see, you might have someone who's
deaf, you might have someone who's

had their heels blown off in action.

You might have someone with Parkinson's
and you have this group of people.

But in the main, this group of people
all have one thing in common, which

is the Northern Irish troubles.

So even if they're Northern Irish and
they've gone and served in Afghanistan

or whatever, everybody has a resonance
of the Northern Irish troubles.

So we kind of start from there.

We are very bespoke in the way we work.

So it just depends.

We really gauge.

We have a very specific way of working
that revolves around a cup of tea.

To start with, we always sit
down space time, quietness, that

magic of a nonclinical setting.

And we talk, we always talk
for half an hour or so.

We'd check in how the week was, but
a good half an hour, you know, at

least sometimes it runs to an hour.

And then we usually go
into be very, very lucky.

We've got a large indoor
arena for our private use.

So then we go in and, you know, some
may, I mean, we're in Ireland, so

a lot of people have had experience
with horses when they were kids,

you know, negatively or positively.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Helen Sharp: Everyone's got
story been bitten and we.

We do the introductions.

So we introdu, we introduce
them to horses, we introduce

them how to approach a horse.

We in, you know, we, we do
the circle in the quarter.

We, you know, we we introduce them to
the horses, how to approach them gently.

We start, like, everybody probably
starts, so we, so we do grooming.

I'm a equine therapist, so I teach
them as part of the 10 weeks massage.

Because one of the things that we
find a lot, especially with the

men, the military and the police
men, is tactile, soft touch.

It's a huge thing.

And the amount of times I've seen just
men burst into tears when they, when

they're touching an animal softly.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Helen Sharp: It's kind of, you
know, it'll blow your mind.

Blow your mind.

And that can be from a first touch.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Helen Sharp: We go on to do a
sort of we have a, a set of it's

like an obstacle course and we
have it set out at the start.

Because at the start, I think most of them
can't believe that they're gonna be able

to do that with a 16 two horse by the end.

And we're a great believer, as a friend
once said to me about, you know, the

hands can heal what the mind can't.

And I've heard lots of negative
talk within EAS about it shouldn't

involve horsemanship skills, and
I'm just completely disagree.

You know, if they're being taught

Rupert Isaacson: in a funny
way, what else would it involve?

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Helen Sharp: So the way you approach
a horse is a horsemanship skill,

you know, so we find that those
those exercises and the achievement

of those exercises along with.

Other like reflective space
and other maybe more equine

assisted learning, if you like.

The combination of the two is really
working because we have chief, you

know, chief constables, we have people
that have had really high up jobs,

you know, and it's not all about just,
just rooming, like the challenges

are really, really paid dividends.

And I have so many stories to
tell and I know everyone, everyone

hears good stories all the time.

But men in particular, I have to say like
we've had incredible, you know, women too.

It's, there's, there's very few, well, no
negative stories so far, but the change

in men and men with aggression, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, right.

Because I mean the, the troubles
Northern Ireland, it, it, it was war.

Yeah.

And it's still a cold war.

But it was a hot war.

Yeah.

And a hot war involves men committing.

Acts of violence and atrocity upon other
men, and sometimes women and children too.

And that's what war is.

It's easy to forget.

In Europe, you know, we, we think of
war is something that happens elsewhere.

I mean, now we're learning
differently of course with Ukraine,

but it's still a long way away.

And World War II is now distant memory.

I'm sitting here in Germany, you know, 80
years ago things were very different here.

Mm-hmm.

But my own childhood was set
against, to some degree a background

of colonial wars in Africa.

And then my journalistic career,
I encountered that firsthand.

So I know what it is.

So it's interesting that you say
for men, because the men were the,

in some ways, I don't wanna say it's
easier, but if you're the victim of

violence,

it, it's very clear what the role is.

You, something was done to you,
but you were not the aggressor.

Morally you are clear.

The men who went in

to war,

the morality is not clear at all.

Even if you perceived yourself as
being on the side of the goodies.

And in a situation like Northern
Ireland, both sides did.

It's as close to the Middle
East as we've had really.

So it's very interesting when you
said, well, when men can touch

gently with tenderness, then suddenly
they break because for 45 to 60

years of their lives, they've been
required to be effectively vikings.

Talk to us a bit more about that.

Helen Sharp: I think, so maybe
I should give you an example.

Just one, one guy that sticks in my
mind who had been an RECA police officer

during the troubles had, without a doubt,

Rupert Isaacson: but for, for
those people who don't know the

troubles, what does RUC mean?

Helen Sharp: Well, lost a consta.

Rupert Isaacson: Royal Alst
constabulary, who were they?

Helen Sharp: So they were the police
force in Northern Ireland, but I suppose

in simple terms, they would've been.

Against the nationalist,

Rupert Isaacson: there would've been
the Protestants on the British side.

Helen Sharp: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Defending the
existing government against the IRA.

Helen Sharp: Pretty much,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Pretty much,

Helen Sharp: yeah.

So the r so this guy he came and he
basically told us that he'd been referred

by the psychologist to the program
and he thought it was a pile of shit.

Okay.

Which I love actually.

I love a bit of just straight talks.

Yeah.

Great.

Brilliant.

That gives me something to, you know,
I think because of the experience I

had with doing 12 years of community
arts in Northern Ireland, I came

up against that a lot of times.

Like a lot of people saying, we don't
want a sculpture, we don't want a public

sculpture, we want our bins emptied.

You know, so there was a lot
that I learned so much about.

How to ask people, how to ask
people what they don't want.

But so yeah, so he, this one particular
guy came in and, and he did tell us that

he thought it was a pile of shit, but
that he'd, he, he'd give it a go, which I

thought, fair, fair play to you, you know?

So instead of week two, his daughters,
I must add actually, his daughters

his daughter rode horses, like
at a decent level show jumping.

So he also knew everything about
horses, you know, which is fair enough.

So he's, and by the way, he pulled the
horse around, you know, he went straight

into I'm a police officer and pulled
the horse around the arena, you know.

So then me and Fiona were
definitely like, well, we've

got something to work with here.

You know, so like, so how do you start
teaching about, about partnership?

So really we had to sort of start
at the beginning, and it started

with breathing, and it started with
teaching him to ground himself and.

He started to talk.

So then he, he would be grooming
the horse and in between telling

us what his daughter did and
things, and you just get glimpses.

He'd suddenly start to talk about how
he was held at gunpoint at one stage.

And what we do is with our
groups, we always get one group

member to hold the horse and we
get one of them to be grooming.

And usually conversations
happen over the withers.

That's a really great, and we try not to
interrupt those conversations if possible,

if they're starting to happen naturally.

But, so you get a lot
of that sort of talk.

Sometimes there's a, you have to get
through a couple of weeks of bravado

and what I did in, in the police
and what you did in the police.

But anyway, I suppose a long story
short of, of this guy was through

Fiona's amazing teaching 'cause
she's an incredible teacher.

He learned to build a
partnership with, with a horse.

He slowed everything down.

He learned, he was so quick, quick
to get frustrated and things,

you know, hypervigilant too.

So he was never quite
concentrating in things.

One of the things we do at Gram
work, because most people that

come through are hypervigilant.

So we always have to explain who's on the
yard, you know, if the, if the handyman's

there or if my husband's there mucking
out or we always introduce everyone.

So, that's just an aside.

But eventually, anyway, we
were teaching him this and he

had horses at home, you see.

So he came in on about, I think
it was about week eight, and he

pulled us to the side and he cried
and he cried and he basically told

us that he had s anger issues that
always spilled out to his wife.

And he said he, the horses at
home, they would get wound up.

He would get wound up, then
the horses would get wound up,

which would wind him up more.

And then he would usually get so
frustrated he'd go for his wife.

Verbally, I presume.

Or it'd be as in his words, he'd be
screaming or shouting at his kids.

But we, he said that we had taught him
how to diffuse that situation by knowing

to slow his body down as he approached
the horse by knowing how to come around

and approach the horse by knowing not
to do X, y, and z kept the whole thing

calm, which he just said, kept the horse
calm, kept him calm, and then would

stop him from having a go at the family.

It just kept his whole
thing on the low down.

And yeah, that was kind of his, and
he was in floods of tears saying this.

It was a revelation to him that
slowing his body down could, the ripple

effect of that is he wouldn't go in
and scream at his wife, you know?

And it was beautiful actually.

It was really, really
beautiful how that worked.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's
interesting, I, I dunno if you

remember when I met you at cre, the
agricultural college in Northern

Ireland a year or so ago with us
was somebody called ke Sullivan.

Yeah, I know Kevin.

Yeah.

Right.

Who works at University of Bournemouth.

She's a researcher and she had done
a, a research study into domestic

violence outcomes from an equine
assisted program in the west of England.

And the outcome was extraordinary
that a year after the program was

done, there was still a 51%, 51%
decrease in domestic violence.

Helen Sharp: I totally believe it.

We have another, if I can give another

Rupert Isaacson: please

Helen Sharp: example, it's
not, it was actually from the

other perspective in that.

We had a woman who was the wife of,
of a a military veteran actually.

And he battered her so badly
that she'd had a stroke.

So she was having problems walking and
her anxiety was just off the scale,

sort of, you know, this woman just,
it was so tangible of her, you know.

She actually ended up, did something
like, I think about 18 weeks.

She came as part of a group and
then, and then got funding to,

for her to come for one-on-ones.

And she, she fell in love
with this yearling of mine.

So I don't always, we don't always
use the kind of quiet, I like

to use the young stock as well.

We actually involve pregnant
mares sometimes as well.

You know, there's a couple on the yard
or there was last year, and actually

that's sort of amazing one for some
of the women because the immediately.

It became about family and
discussion about family and

birth and pregnancy and things.

It was really interesting.

But yeah, this woman was just she
was completely unpacked by this

relationship that she built with
a couple of the horses actually.

And all she wanted to do was
groom them and she, she would be

brushing their hair like a child.

She was holding it and brushing
it and talking and talking

and talking to this horse.

And the more she was with us, the
more we, we just left her, you know,

to a private time with the horse.

I mean, she really,
that's what she wanted.

And the change around in her, more
in her confidence, you know, I can't

presume to know what was going on at home
necessarily, but her whole demeanor and

her softness, and it was as if there was
some sort of outlet for love and affection

that she wasn't able to express at home.

And she would be, this was the thing that
used to make me nearly well up, is that.

By the time she'd done sort of six weeks
or so, this stick, she was so reliant

on, you know, she used to throw it,
thankfully it was a quiet yearling,

you know, out of the stable door.

And there was something literally
stabilizing in her body about

being around this horse that she
just wasn't able to do before.

Unbelievable.

Like, it was just, you know, the
way, the way these things work with

violence, just that correlation that the
things I'm seeing is just incredible.

It's, it blows my mind every, every week

Rupert Isaacson: you are
there in Northern Ireland.

For those listeners who are not British
the accent you're hearing is Scottish.

Which can be confusing because
Scots and Northern Irish are not a

thousand miles away from each other,
but they're somewhat distinct.

I know that you grew up in Scotland.

I know you grew up on the Heese.

Those listeners who don't know where
the Hebrides is, if you look at a map of

the uk, you'll see a sort of a triangle.

That's the main bit.

You'll see Ireland off to the left,
and then you'll see a bunch of sort of

fluttery things off to the northwest.

That a bit like the gills on a fish
or something, or the, the crest

on a dragon that, that crest on
the dragon is a series of islands

heading up towards sort of Iceland.

Getting towards the fringes of
civilization and they're called the heide,

Helen Sharp: getting to
the heart of civilization.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, apologies.

I remember that when I was in
Mongolia, and they would laugh at me

and say, oh, we know that you guys
in the west say outta Mongolia to

mean you know, the end of the world.

And this is where we live.

This is home.

Yeah.

So where you guys live
is out in Mongolia to us.

Fair.

Fair enough.

Yet it is remote and wildly beautiful.

And wild coastlines and amazingness.

That's where you grew up.

Not everybody grows up in the He Halen.

Why did you grow up there?

How did you grow up there and how
did you get into horses there?

Because it's not exactly horse
country, it's Viking country, but

it might not be horse country.

I think they actually
have elves there too.

They've exported them subsequently
to New Zealand, obviously since

the Lord of the Rings movies.

But, you know, original stock,
you know, from the ties.

Talk us through that childhood
and how that informed a little

bit of where you are now.

Helen Sharp: I think it definitely
informed there's, there's something

about an island mentality that
everything is because of the,

because of the, the circular horizon.

Everything's possible and
everything's a threat.

Okay.

And that's something I think I've
just, it's just stayed with me.

Fun.

I actually live on an island now
in Ana with three houses on it.

So I live on an island which is never

Rupert Isaacson: an island in
a sea or an island in a lake

Helen Sharp: in La Urn.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

It's a source of never ending
joy and humor to my mom that I've

tried, spent my life trying to get
off an island and not back on one.

But yeah, but you can see the

Rupert Isaacson: enemy coming.

Yeah.

It's useful.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Yeah, completely.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you have cannons?

Sorry,

Helen Sharp: max out the back.

We're fine.

Yeah, it's the heberty was incredible.

I think the thing was, we, we moved
there when I was, I think just before

my 10th birthday, and we had been
in England and I had had a series of

really badly behaved ponies that my
mom had got off some dodgy farmer.

And

Rupert Isaacson: where in England?

Helen Sharp: Comia.

So right on the border again.

Is that

Rupert Isaacson: where you were born?

Helen Sharp: I was born in Northumberland,
but when I was six months old.

Okay.

So you're a

Rupert Isaacson: Northumbrian girl.

You're, you're a.

Helen Sharp: Jordy family actually.

Yeah.

So

Rupert Isaacson: you, okay, so
Jordy across Te Cumbia Yeah.

Other side of the Pennines.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Wow.

Rupert Isaacson: For
the Americans, you know.

Okay.

So you've got to look at, okay.

If you watch the series Vikings when
Ragnar Brook does the eagle execution

where he opens the ribcage of, of the,
the king who, no, actually, sorry.

He's put to death by the king of
North Umbr in a pit of snakes.

It's his son who comes and kills
the king of Northumbria above.

That's where it all goes on.

So you, you can understand that
it's, it's hard country, but

it's very beautiful country.

Yeah.

That you're born up there, you go
across the pens into Cambridge,

it's even more beautiful.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

And you have some dodgy

Rupert Isaacson: ponies.

Helen Sharp: Pony, mad
loads of dodgy ponies.

And then we went on, my dad was
actually in the Merchant Navy.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So

Helen Sharp: we used to see
him once or twice a year.

And my mom was a nurse and midwife, but
we went, my mom organized a holiday,

a camping holiday to the Heberty sw.

We went and then I think at some
sort of beach barbecue, my mom

met the head of nursing in the
Hebrides who offered her a job.

So then that was it.

So we were all decamped
up to the outer heide.

Rupert Isaacson: And which island was it?

As many islands in Heide.

Helen Sharp: Vater se, so we're actually
not quite so north, the heide are more

west, but we were on the southerly,
most inhabited island with 48 residents.

Okay.

Yeah, I remember waking up and I, and
I went to bed and I woke up and I could

hear the sea and I didn't understand it.

And we'd arrived in the dark and I
opened the skylight of my bedroom

and the sea was just at the front
and it kind of blew my mind.

I remember, but I spent the rest of
my life on that seashore actually.

But yes, we moved there, but of course,
the thing, I was pony mad, but the

thing about the Heberty was there,
there isn't, there's a few now, but

Air Escape ponies are very famous
and they're just a few islands up.

But where I lived, there were no horses.

So obviously it took me 30 years to
forgive my mother for, so in a way,

I became more obsessed with something
I couldn't have, I think, you know,

and so always just remained because,
because as everybody knows, when you

have ponies as a kid, it lights a fire.

And that's probably never extinguished
if you're a horse lover, you know?

But yeah, the Berties was brilliant and
I suppose I was kind of a wild kid and.

So that was great.

I spent a lot of time with like
collecting sea urchins and razor

clams and you know, my dad was lobster
fishing and all that kind of thing,

you know, so it was really beautiful.

But also the schools were
really, really small.

So I think probably where I would've
been naturally, badly behaved, but I was

actually the schools were small enough
that it held my concentration and things.

So I, so I was, did very well in school.

I was loved learning
so it was a good thing.

But there was enough, there was problems
enough at home and I think I spent a lot

of time trying not to be in the house
and just sitting, watching the rabbits,

I got really fascinated with the rabbits
'cause they had mixing mitosis in the

Hebert and it was a really mad landscape.

It was kind of the macker we call it,
which is a kind of sandy grassy with

flowers in the summer Atlantic coast line.

But I would spend hours
watching these rabbits kind of.

Toiling with mixed mitosis.

Strange, strange child.

But yeah, that was kind of what I did.

Rupert Isaacson: Feral childhood.

Yeah.

First to nature.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Resilience beauty,
how, where do you go from the heide?

Helen Sharp: Well, despite my
love of nature and everything,

I also just loved, like popular
culture and fashion and music.

And I suppose if you're, if you're
smart enough, you wanted to do your

A-levels in the heide you had to fly
on Europe's only beach runway, so

it'd be you, the 16 seater twin Otter.

So you and your mates.

In this twin Otter flying up every weekend
to the next island up to do a levels

Rupert Isaacson: fantastic.

Helen Sharp: And the geniuses
that designed the school, they

called it the boarding school.

It, you know, put the boys on
the bottom and the girls on

the top with the sloping roof.

And then you had like 12 miles of beach.

So we just used to slide
down the roof, see?

And just, we had an amazing
time doing a levels.

So yeah, I decided I wanted
to go off to art school.

So that's, I was studying towards art
school and that's what my aim was.

And then, yeah, I got into Edinburgh
Art school, which was fancy and

yeah, studied sculpture there.

So that was kind of my trajectory.

Rupert Isaacson: At what point
do you rediscover ponies?

Helen Sharp: I, I sought them out a
couple of times, I think in Edinburgh.

I.

But I think more in those
university years it faded a bit.

I was far too interested in kind
of clubbing and, you know, being

fantastic, you know, and fashion
and high heels and stuff like that.

So, so horses didn't come back
into my life until I went down

to study a master's in Devon.

So I went to a college called, a very
famous college called Dartington College.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh

Helen Sharp: yeah, I know Dartington.

Yeah, so it's in Devon and
it's in a beautiful area.

And that's when horses came back into
my life just because they were around,

you know, so they started to creep into
my work and stuff a bit actually then.

And yeah, but I didn't get seriously back
at horses until I moved back to Ireland.

I moved to Belfast and I got an
art residency at Belfast and I was

running away from DE at the time.

And,

Rupert Isaacson: so back to Ireland.

We haven't been to Ireland yet.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, I know.

It's funny to Edinburgh

Rupert Isaacson: to, apparently

Helen Sharp: I've got in the 17th
century I've got relatives and me,

so it's always back to Ireland.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And why were you running away from Daven?

Helen Sharp: Oh, I had a terrible husband.

You got

Rupert Isaacson: married as an undergrad?

Helen Sharp: Yeah, I got married, yeah,
I got married just after, yeah, I got

married between sort of graduating in
my undergraduate and doing a master's

Rupert Isaacson: also in art.

Helen Sharp: Yes.

And I, and my husband at the time then
used my undergraduate portfolio to get

himself into art college at darting.

Clever man.

Yeah, so like

Rupert Isaacson: Shameless.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, totally shameless.

Yeah, he wasn't a great guy.

Unfortunately, he wasn't a good guy, so I.

Yeah, I had to, had to find
my way out of that one.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So, but why you could have
gone any direction why did

that direction lead to Ireland?

Helen Sharp: I was on my way
to, I was on my way to Glasgow.

Okay.

That was my escape plan.

And but actually I got, I got a residency,
so I was doing a PhD in Devon actually.

But I started a PhD there and I just at

Rupert Isaacson: Daton College.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

And I was teaching a little bit there
and then I decided I want, didn't want

to stick around there any longer, so
I got awarded a residency in an art

gallery in Belfast and I thought,
great, I'll go for three months there.

24 years later, we're still here.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

Alright, so you.

Have this wonderful if po list feral
childhood in the heide, which are the

outer heide, which are extraordinary.

You then go to Edinburgh,
which is amazing.

Then you go down to Devon.

Okay, there's a bad husband, but it's
amazing and you've got horses there.

Then you end up in Belfast.

Now is Belfast where you do your PhD?

Helen Sharp: Hmm.

It is where I did, it's where
I did the third and final PhD.

Okay.

So I was very lucky.

I, I had in between that time gone
back to Edinburgh and started, I

had been offered a PhD at Edinburgh
University which I started, but I

couldn't make it work financially.

But then Belfast offered me a scholarship,
so that's like 45 grand over three years

to do a scholar to do a PhD with them.

So I.

I said yes.

Moved promptly to Forman
and bought a horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

What horse did you buy?

Helen Sharp: I bought a national Annette,
a former National Hunt, thoroughbred

16 three with Ring Bone for a pound

Rupert Isaacson: as we all do.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: How do you
work out the wrong horse?

Helen Sharp: And he told me everything
about horses I ever need to know.

Rupert Isaacson: I am sure he did.

Yes.

Yeah.

My first horse was off the
track and he, that's why I'm

able to do what I'm able to do.

'cause every horse after him was easy, so.

Okay.

I want to touch on something now that
you've talked to me about which I

think gives you a real qualification
for the work that you do in terms

of compassion and open-heartedness.

And it's one of my not beefs, but.

Queries Sometimes when people are
getting into the equine assisted world,

particularly when they've come in from,
you know, horsey backgrounds, okay,

everybody has their, their shit and every
family has its shit, et cetera, et cetera.

Granted, and at the same time people
that grew up in very horsey families

often are growing up in some degree
of privilege and perhaps some

degree to some degree sheltered.

You went through a phase with heroin.

Yeah, and I think this is really
important to talk about because those

of us who have checkered pasts, and
I'm certainly one I think it allows

us a certain non judgmentalism and
an ability to say that for the grace

of God, go I, or that I have gone or.

We're certainly not going to judge the
person that comes in front of us and we're

not standing in front of people pretending
to be the good boy or the good girl,

which means that when the person who's
standing in front of us who's facing the

same thing, they're certainly not gonna

find judgment.

I think it's important that you have
this background 'cause I think it

qualifies you, you know, for doing
this work with trauma that you do.

Can you, do you feel comfortable
talking to us about that and, and

how it evolved and what you learned?

Helen Sharp: I do.

Yeah.

And I'm comfortable about talking
about it because I think that it is

exactly what it's about, what I learned.

And it's always one of those things
when people ask, do you regret it?

Well, if sort of sensibly you think,
yeah, I regret it 'cause I worried a

lot of people or I, but actually I.

I'm really glad to be alive because
it did nearly kill me in all honesty.

So I'm very lucky that I didn't
lose my life then, but it did.

I had gone down that route for a reason
because I wasn't, despite all of the

bucolic kind of island life and all
that stuff I wasn't happy, you know, I

was quite, a lot had gone on and I was
quite sensitive and quite smart kid and

I just, it was, I just felt overwhelmed.

Actually looking back now as well, I
realized I've gone from an island of 48

people to a really busy city and as a
lot of people would say, you're sensitive

or an empath or whatever word you wanna
use, like overwhelm is a real thing.

But there was I in the heart of sort
of early nineties Edinburgh dancing

and clubbing and yeah, that was the

Rupert Isaacson: train spotting years
for those people who saw that movie.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: And it was kind
of, actually, it didn't suit.

Me, me at all.

And so I can look back and see lots of
reasons why it happened and yeah, I'm

sure I, part of me thought, you know,
I was experimenting with all sorts of

drugs that I thought it was kind of
cool and, you know, but it's, no, we all

Rupert Isaacson: did.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, yeah.

Very quickly became not that cool.

And but it did teach
me what was important.

It taught me, I had a huge moment,
which is gonna make me sound,

possibly, oh, I don't even know.

I can't presume to what listeners are
gonna think, but I did overdose and

I had a bizarre incident when I was
overdosing, whatever it was, whatever

you wanna believe it is, whether
it's chemical or bigger than that.

But it was kind of an experience
of like a million voices kind of

light and voices at the same time.

And it just kept saying,
you've got a great brain.

You've got a great brain.

But that's what I remember.

And I remember coming round with
everyone standing round me above.

Really, really clearly.

And something had come fundamentally
changed in me from that moment.

It fell out of my control what
had fundamentally changed, but

possibly it was, you know, I
dunno, shock or I don't know.

But anyway, something fundamentally
changed and I'll stand by that.

And then I changed everything.

Rupert Isaacson: What did you change?

And this was in Edinburgh, this happened?

Helen Sharp: Yes.

Well, I was actually in a
brief saur in Liverpool, which,

which was a rough enough place.

Tiff was a rough place.

And yeah, I was with the said
not great husband at the time.

And it changed everything
because I was completely focused

on doing good with my brain.

If that doesn't sound bananas,
I'm just telling you my truth

and that's what my truth was.

So, so then I.

That's when I sort of decided I
was gonna go and do a master's.

That's when I decided I was
gonna, and it wasn't easy.

I'm not gonna kind of go and, and
then suddenly everything was lovely.

It wasn't, I had to come off heroin,
you know, I had to spend a lot of

time being sick into a plastic bag.

How did

Rupert Isaacson: you come off heroin?

Talk to us about that process.

Helen Sharp: I watched a box set of I
watched the 24 box set of friends in

a bed in Liverpool and was sick a lot.

And, you know, it was, it
was proper movie stuff.

It was shake and illness and sick and
laughing at friends at all the same time.

So it was, it was, and other dog,
because I had, you know, things

had got a bit harder as well.

I'd started to try crack
and all that kind of thing.

So it was a lot, it was a lot
to get through physically.

I wasn't as robust obviously as I am now.

I'm quite sort of fit now.

But yeah, so, so it was, I did
it myself basically is the story.

And then.

The clarity that came after that.

I just think, how long did that

Rupert Isaacson: take
and how old were you?

Helen Sharp: It's funny when people ask
me how old I was, 'cause it's so sort of

hazy, I think I was about 29, maybe 28.

And it took a couple of weeks for
the, for the main bit to sort of

self, you know, self isolation
and kind of getting through it.

But I was just so determined.

I just thought, this is not my trajectory.

You know, it was really, really
powerful, not my trajectory.

And funnily enough, there was a few
horses on the outskirts actually, of

Liverpool and I used to go down there.

Were just in kind of fields, you know,
and I used to go down there and it's

funny, I'd forgotten that until just now.

And yeah, horses were always there, but
it started a, a more positive trajectory

and back to that sort of clarity that
I really enjoy now, like these days.

I don't drink a lot or anything.

Like I love clarity.

I really treasure clarity.

Rupert Isaacson: Clarity over claret.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So that was, that was that kind of
episode, but I don't regret it and I

don't mind talking about it because as
you say, lots of people have been there

and you know, I don't really care if it's
an eyebrow razor for some, it's my job.

No, no.

I

Rupert Isaacson: think, I think
it's a job qualification, honestly.

My feeling is that if you haven't
gone through things like this,

what tools have you got for helping
somebody else go through something?

When I'm doing trainings, for example, in
Horse Boy Method or Movement Method or ta,

one of our programs sometimes what I will
ask people is, look, you are asking these

kids or adults to make a major change.

From say, non-verbal to
verbal or non-communicative

to communicative or whatever.

Or let's say it's a horse training thing.

You are asking this horse
to learn this thing.

It could be a movement thing
or it could be going into a

trailer, but this is a big deal.

What change are you making?

What fundamental fear are you facing?

Are you learning a new language?

Are you forcing yourself
to go learn programming?

Are you, what, what, what are you doing?

And it's so interesting.

So often with horse people,
it's like, well, I don't need

to do anything because I'm cool.

I'm a horsey person and I
worked it all out, you know?

And I could do, even if that's not what
they say, that's often the subtext.

It's like, well, oh man, you're
gonna come across people and horses

that are gonna demand that you
have tools personally that you've.

Developed, you know, and that you can't
just say, well, I did that one thing

and now I don't need to let you know.

We, we know that we don't
get off that easily, sadly.

We gotta be continually doing this.

But I, I think this is often not
really addressed in the horse

and in the equine assisted world.

That said, an awful lot of people that
do come into it, like you actually

do have these very solid stories.

But I think we need, we need to talk
about them and celebrate them because

those are the job qualifications.

When that person or that horse comes
in front of you to say, I accept you.

I see who you are without judgment, and
absolutely have your back and help you,

you know, get where you want to go.

So, whether you raise eyebrows
or not isn't the, isn't the

question what the question is.

What do you do?

What do you do with that skillset?

And it's interesting you talk about
heroin, 'cause I never got into heroin.

Except I overdosed on morphine and died.

So, and it happened in a hospital and it
happened because I smashed my leg up, my

left leg, which is a, if you ever see me
ride, you'll notice that my left heel,

when I think it's down often isn't down.

If you look at pictures of me jumping,
I think, oh, I've got great form.

And I look at the picture, I
was like, my, he's like, way up.

I, I just don't have a
lot of feeling in it.

And so I smashed that leg in six places,
but the horse came on top of me over

a cross country jump and he rolled
over my body and I remember thinking,

you know, big horse, big warm blood,
and he rolled off and I could feel

everything breaking like twigs down there.

And this feeling of relief of going,
oh, thank God it's only my leg.

And passing out and then
thinking, oh, no problem.

I'll just get up.

And I couldn't get up
and, you know, but anyway.

After they put metal rods in
my leg and things like that.

In the recovery room, in this hospital
in Texas, the morphine machine, they

give you this morphine machine to manage
your own pain so you can give yourself a

little shot with your thumb malfunctioned.

And I died.

Oh my God.

I overdosed.

I overdosed myself, and I can
thoroughly recommend it, by the way.

It's like, great way to go.

And I, I was down the
tunnel talking to God.

I was talking to the light and yeah, okay.

I, I had the most beautiful experience.

So, and then

I could go into this, but I, when I saw
my body there, I'm, you know, over there.

And then I see my body there, and
then there's this sense of, okay,

I'm being allowed to, to go back.

In fact, I'm being sent back.

And there's even a, this
feeling of, oh, God, really?

Because I felt like I just came home.

But Rowan, my son, scrubbed shit.

Okay, fuck, gotta gotta go back.

And it was this feeling of
wading through viscous ectoplasm

almost to get back into my body.

And then I was there, and then as my wife
Ia, who's German looking at me like this,

and she had noticed that I'd gone blue.

Luckily thank, I owe her my life.

She had called the emergency services.

Wow.

And I tried to talk to her.

I went, I thought, oh
my God, I'm brain darn.

You know?

And then luckily I managed to
get it because I said, am I okay?

And of course, she's
German, she can't lie.

So she went,

I'm like, couldn't you just like
one time, like just this one time,

just like one time just maybe go
back because I didn't say this.

That's what was going on in my brain.

So, okay.

My sense of humor's intact.

That's good.

And then I down the thing.

But it's, it's a very
interesting way to go.

I, I, in that moment.

Absolutely understood why
people get into heroin.

Hmm.

Because it takes away that little voice
in your head that tells you you are shit

Helen Sharp: that a hundred percent.

It's a, I used to call it, you
know, it was just a, it was warmth

where a daily feeling was cold.

You know, it was always a warmth.

And yeah.

It's funny, I, when I talk about it, it's
like I'm talking about somebody else.

Like, I had no connection.

It, it's so far away, you know?

So I think that's why it's, it's easy
to talk about, you know, I think I

was embarrassed for so many years
and I'm so not embarrassed now.

You know?

It, it was a big experience.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And if you, if you've grown up
with this inner critic, which was

put into all of us very early and.

People jump off bridges
because of this voice.

Helen Sharp: Mockingbird,

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
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Equine assisted program specifically
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We work in the saddle
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Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
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So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

you know, when I'm doing trainings
for autism, you know, and, and

you know, people are saying, gosh, I
wish my kid was neurotypical or whatever.

I'm like, dude, that's no holy grail.

You know, people are topping themselves
every day who are neurotypical

because of this voice in your head
telling you your shit all the time.

That's the curse of being neurotypical.

And if we ramp, if we amplify
that voice, something like heroin

becomes incredibly attractive.

And it's interesting too, I've met
heroine addicts who are long-term heroine

addicts, like 30 year, 40 year heroin

Helen Sharp: addicts.

Yeah.

Functioning as they function.

Right.

And they

Rupert Isaacson: would say, honestly,
Rupe, it made me a better person.

Yeah.

You know, if I could survive to
I have now and I'm not having to

resort to criminality to get my fix.

I'm a better person than
I would be without it.

And I think that what is has entered
the conversation luckily since COVID,

you know, is, is mental health, right?

Hmm.

Which means that the value of altered
of consciousness is suddenly a

conversation where it was not before
suddenly like every, everyone in

generation Z or whatever they are right
now is doing ayahuasca or whatever.

But that was not the case
before even about 2020.

So

if something like ayahuasca with a decent
shaman had been available to you and you'd

been living out there on the Celtic Fringe
with a good healer with plant medicines.

I would hazard that maybe you would've
found some of that sanctuary, that

spiritual sanctuary without the need for
the other shit that went along with it.

But you must be able to
look back at that and, and

give value and validation and respect in a
funny way to the sanctuary that the poppy,

which is it's just a plant heroin, it's
poppy provided the red poppy provided,

but sadly it was without guidance.

Right.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

I think that's really
beautifully put actually.

Yeah, it's, I mean, I mean, you
know, I suppose my psychologist,

my former psychologist would've
said, you know, it was, it was an

intelligent self-medicating strategy.

You know, it was.

It wasn't really because it was cool,
it was because I was a really, I was

quite a damaged young person because,
you know, there had been things in my

earlier life that had been a problem and,
you know, I was, I just wasn't very well,

you know, and it, it did, it served its
purpose, but it also, at the same time,

I wouldn't advocate for it be no, you
know, for what it, for for the upset.

I suppose.

It caused my loved ones, my
friends and things and my, my

family that did know at the time.

And and I saw a lot of really awful
things that actually still want me.

And funnily enough, full circle actually,
you know, when, when you're in that,

in those sort of depths, you in, in
Liverpool there, there was quite a lot of

veterans who were, who were using drugs.

And one in particular who I would
give all my money in the world

to go and find was a, was a was
a, was a, a Falcon's veteran who.

Obviously just saw this young
girl in this kind of situation.

She shouldn't be in, in a shooting gallery
in wherever I was, you know, on the

Outskirt Chester or somewhere, you know?

And, and this guy lived not too far
from me, and he just used to, he just

kept, he just, he'd be so much more
upset from me than himself, you know?

But he was hiding too.

He was, he was dealing with
his PTSD through heroin and,

and he stayed with me forever.

And truth be told, there's a bit
of him in everything I'm doing now.

I think when I really put it together,
because it was so sad to see this man

who'd done so much, and he'd done tours
of Northern Ireland as well, and he

was a really beautiful human being.

But he was just, that was his only,
you know, that was his escape.

And, and I hope he is
around still, but you know.

Of course we see, we see veterans with
substance abuse problems now here, you

know, and there's definitely echoes
of, of that in the work I'm doing now.

Rupert Isaacson: And you remember a
particular conversation with this man?

Something that he said to
you at a particular moment?

Helen Sharp: I think he
said, don't lose yourself.

You know, I mean, he said, you know,
he'd sort of, and it wasn't in a sleazy

way because I was there with my partner
at the time, or you know, my husband

at the time, whatever, you know, we'd
be all, but, you know, he was very much

like, you're a beautiful young girl.

You know, you're, you're, you've
got, you've got everything

Rupert Isaacson: ahead of

Helen Sharp: you.

You know, don't get caught in,
don't get trapped in this, you know?

And I think that was, it was that don't
lose yourself, I think was the thing.

Where

Rupert Isaacson: was your
partner in this, at that time?

Helen Sharp: Well, he was
there, but he was a, he was.

18, 18 years older than me.

I thought I was marrying Sge Gainsborough.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,
perhaps you were, but

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

You know, bad poets, good snake skin
shoes, you know, one of them guys.

Right.

And yeah, so like we met on the first
night and decided to get married, you

know, on these ridiculous kind of like,
isn't it romantic nonsense really.

But so he was there, but obviously
he was part and parcel of it.

And he, he, although I was old
enough to know better, I suppose, he

introduced me to intravenous drug use
and sort of started a trajectory that

I, I found it very hard to get off.

So he was around, but you know,
I had to get clarity before I

could make him not be around.

Rupert Isaacson: I want to just, okay.

Intravenous drug use
is an interesting one.

I.

Most of us have a fear of needles and

Helen Sharp: I'm terrible now.

Oh my God.

I can't, oh,

Rupert Isaacson: it, it, it's
so, it's so interesting what

we choose to be afraid of.

Like, I'll hurt myself at a big cross
country jump and, you know, do what I

did with my leg or whatever and think
that that's perfectly reasonable.

But if you come near me with
a needle, I'll, I'll, you

know, hide under the chair.

Or if you try to make me eat an egg,
you know, I'll throw myself out.

Well,

Helen Sharp: me too.

I hate eggs.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh God.

I can't remember.

My mom said I spit them out
when I was 18 months old.

I always think that the people that
can inject themselves, and I'm not

just saying that the heroin users also
like the people with diabetes and so

on, it's an act of massive bravery.

And I always remember thinking, you know,
when I was living in squats in Montreal

and Toronto and London, when I was.

500 years ago a young man, and there
was a lot of it going on around me.

I remember always thinking about
the people that stuck the needles

and going, man, you're so brave.

I, I couldn't do that.

What gave you the bravery?

Because there's so many way other ways.

You could do heroin, you could
smoke it, you could, there's

lots of ways to get fucked up.

Why that and, and what gave you the
courage to, to go through the pain?

Helen Sharp: I think it,

I just keep laughing about people
listening to this, but actually I, I

think it's my natural inquisitive nature,
you know, cut to the journalist today.

But like, I have never really seen a limit
to what I want to know and experience.

And

Rupert Isaacson: unless it's eggs

Helen Sharp: fucking, sorry.

Keep your eggs.

Oh, I can't do eggs.

No.

Yeah.

I think that's partly it.

Was partly also, if I'm really, really
honest, I was really deeply unhappy

and overwhelmed by every life universe.

Like the, the scale of everything.

I just couldn't, I remember

Rupert Isaacson: that feeling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Had it today.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

And then actually it becomes
a lot more practical.

'cause I'm already quite a pragmatic,
I'm also a pragmatic person.

And as most junkies would tell you quite
often, routine is what it gives you.

And ritual routine.

And ritual.

So that just becomes the thing.

So you, you are balancing yourself,
you know, around, you know, your,

your, it's your compass for the day.

It's your compass.

I was actually listening to Nick
Cave did an interview recently.

And he touched on that, that
it's sort of, it's your job

if you are lost in the world.

Intravenous drug u drug
use can become your job.

Now, funnily enough, you ground it's, it

Rupert Isaacson: grounds you.

Yeah, I could see that.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: It's a central thing.

But,

Rupert Isaacson: but I, I could,
but it's the intravenous thing that

I'm intrigued by, because again,
you could chase the dragon, right?

You could smoke heroin off
a piece of aluminum foil.

So it's,

Helen Sharp: it's self, it's har it's
harmful in a way as well, isn't it?

It's a bit like the

Rupert Isaacson: cutting in a way.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: So it's not,
it's not dissimilar to that.

And there, and there's a kind
of, you know, there, there's

something that comes with it.

It's, it is funny now though, the minute
I've got, I've had this diagnosis of

rheumatoid arthritis this year and it
I've had to start this medication, but you

have to have bloods taken every two weeks.

And I just, every time, every two
weeks I go in, it's like, I just

think, God, if only they knew
because I'm about to pass out.

I can't bear it.

I just can't bear it, you know?

And I just, my mind is
always racing, thinking.

If this nurse only knew, yeah,
those things actually, funnily

enough, is I suppose this is what's
coming out from talking to you.

It's, those things remain really important
for me, which is a sort of exploratory

nature, but also routine and ritual.

I'm really, I have a lot of, suppose
my beautiful husband that I have

now would testify that I have ways
that have to be the way they are.

Rupert Isaacson: Little bit OCD.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Yeah.

It was di it was given
the title selective OCD.

So like the cups are all going the
same way in the kitchen, but my

desk is a tip, you know, like, it's

Rupert Isaacson: like, could we
call that Priestess syndrome?

Helen Sharp: Oh, just give it, yeah.

That's great.

Rupert Isaacson: Temple Guardian.

Helen Sharp: Love it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so
where does journalism come in?

Helen Sharp: So writing
was always my thing.

I should never have gone to art college.

Okay.

I wasn't even that good at
drawing, as my dad pointed out

in one of my school meetings.

But writing

Rupert Isaacson: mind you,
you don't need to be good at

drawing anymore at art college.

No,

Helen Sharp: exactly.

I got into, I got into performance
art, so you definitely didn't need to.

But yeah, so I always wrote,
well, I wrote well as a kid.

I wrote well through college.

I did a PhD in art because I
didn't want to do the art bit.

I wanted to do the writing bit.

You know, writing has just
always been there, so why

Rupert Isaacson: not
do a creative writing?

Why, why do what?

Helen Sharp: Oh, because at 15 I decided
it was cool to go to art college.

Okay, fair enough.

It's like you're more likely to

Rupert Isaacson: end up in a band.

That's true.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

I did then,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

Helen Sharp: I did end
up in a band, of course.

But yeah, writing, I suppose, and
I didn't have confidence in writing

it in some sort of ways, but it
always came really, really naturally.

And even the artworks I was making
quite often involve text and words and.

I'm not a good speaker, but I'm a
better writer than I am speaker.

So I just fell in love with writing.

And then in my, yeah, I just, at one point
I decided just I was, I was traveling.

I traveled all over the world
making artworks and performance art.

I was in Belarus, I was in
Boston, and I was everywhere as a

performance artist, you know, kind of

Rupert Isaacson: when,
when, oh God, in this story.

Helen Sharp: So we're in
my early thirties now.

Rupert Isaacson: You've kicked the heroin?

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You've moved to Belfast.

You got yourself this job.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: As a, well
no, you're doing your PhD.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

And

Rupert Isaacson: now you're getting
jobs, doing installations or something.

Well, it was

Helen Sharp: before, it was
actually before the PhD.

It was sort of, it was in my early
thirties, so my, the final PhD

was a little bit, it was a bit
closer to my mid to late thirties.

But yeah, I was doing performance art
and, and I did performance art because

I saw, when I did my undergraduate,
I saw a very beautiful, tall.

A woman from Hungary, I think she was,
and she did a performance art piece and I

didn't really know about performance art.

And she did this piece and
she got her first class honors

and she had her boobs out.

And I remember kind of getting
really annoyed just going, yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: I could do that.

Helen Sharp: All those, all those tutors,
you know, but it kind of intrigued me.

I was sort of jealous and
intrigued and kind of like,

what is that that she's doing?

Mm-hmm.

So I decided that's why I decided
to go and study a master's in it.

'cause it annoy, it
had annoyed me so much.

Mm-hmm.

So I went and studied it
and then I realized, oh, you

can do whatever you want.

And then I sort of learned how
to do it and, but it did take me,

it did take me to lots of places

Rupert Isaacson: so that
this was performance art at

this point, not sculpture.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, I did
sculptures my undergraduate and my

master's was in performance art.

Rupert Isaacson: So what performance
art were you doing in Belarus in Boston?

Helen Sharp: Oh, I did some great one.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell me.

Helen Sharp: Well, I did a piece where
I act, I accidentally got knocked

out, which was not supposed to happen.

And it wasn't like for cool points.

I was doing a piece where I
would wear a motorbike helmet and

there'd be so I'd suspend a bot.

This was in Belarus, actually.

Rupert Isaacson: Good
place to get knocked out.

Yeah,

Helen Sharp: it's not a lot of
horses in this podcast for me, is it?

But yeah, anyway, it was the place
where I was doing this piece, and

obviously it was about mental health
actually, obviously when I was looking

back, it was expressing therefore

Rupert Isaacson: taking
a big bang on the head.

Absolutely.

But I

Helen Sharp: kept, but I was using
the reference of the image of

launching the ship with a bottle of
champagne, so when someone wax flings

it at the, at the bow of a ship.

But I was the bow of the ship, basically.

Rupert Isaacson: Why?

To

Helen Sharp: get someone in the, in the
audience to, to, to fling this bottle.

Anyway, the Belarusian.

The be the Belarusian helmet wasn't
great and it gave me such a clunk,

Rupert Isaacson: but the Belarusian person
entered into the spirit of the thing.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, it wasn't great.

But anyway, that was the one.

But yeah.

Why?

I dunno, I swung off an anchor.

I, I hadn't anchored suspended from the
ceiling in a gallery of Find contemporary

art gallery in Boston and I swung off
that and used to have big slides, a

lot of horses in the imagery actually.

And why the long face kind of written
and spray paint across, you know, kind

of, I dunno, madness, but really fun.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, A lot of
fun getting paid to have a laugh.

I mean,

Helen Sharp: yeah, people and ultimately
I do frivolity really well, but actually

I really mean it like frivolity is, you
know, frivolity you talk about joy a lot,

but like frivolity and laughter frivolity

Rupert Isaacson: is, is a form of joy.

Absolutely.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: In fact,
there's, there's a, there's a

there's a great quote on Folly.

I'm looking it up on my
cell phone right now.

If I can't find it, I'll paraphrase it.

I don't want to hold the thing up.

But basically it's that there's no great
endeavor that humans undertake that does

not involve a large degree of folly.

Mm-hmm.

And Folly is this idea of, it's
not the crack, you know, in, in

Ireland or joy for the sake of
itself, almost like a divine mania.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: In order
to access certain treat, or

again, back to altered state of
consciousness, I think shamanic joy.

Hmm.

Where you will make yourself the fool,
you'll make yourself the butt of the joke.

I think I always have the utmost
respect for people who make themselves

vulnerable, especially to judgment.

Knowing that there's a sort of job
to be done with it in a funny way.

And it's something I, I can spot in
people and it's like, oh, you have

that courage and it's fun, you know?

Yeah.

But I always have massive
respect for those people because

life is so short, you know?

And to not occasionally stick your neck
out when somebody could take a swing

with the ax is also not to be alive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

A hundred percent.

I remember actually just briefly, I
suppose there was one performance I did

and I, I was sitting for about three
hours in a gallery and I was just twisting

Marino cherries onto the end of my nose

Rupert Isaacson: As you do.

Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

But of course forward in the pub,
the clown's nose, it was just the

clown's nose, but it never would stick.

So it was just continuously the
clown's and it was falling off.

And I remember, I thought it was kind of
funny and a little bit melancholy, but I

remember kind of looking up and floods.

People were in floods of tears.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Helen Sharp: In the gallery.

It was incredibly sad.

I an image of this g you know, and of

Rupert Isaacson: this, it
sounds sad to me actually.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

It was kind of, failing and
failing and failing and failing

kind of thing, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: And trying to be happy.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So why did
you stop doing that stuff and

why did you go into journalism?

It sounds like you're
quite good at that stuff.

Helen Sharp: Yeah, I just had enough.

I just had had, you know, it was everyone.

People say it's brave all the
time to sort of suddenly go.

I just, I was working in galleries as
well and I was curating other people's

work and things and I just, you'd

Rupert Isaacson: enter
the industry, right?

Helen Sharp: Yeah, exactly.

Right.

So I, but I just had enough, but I've
never been scared to, to make changes

where I required and I just thought,
I really love, I bought this horse,

obviously for a pound king, and I, and
I loved him and I thought, like horses,

I love horses because as I said it to
my husband recently, I feel like when

I'm on my deathbed and taking my final
breath, I'll never know everything

about horses that there is to know.

And I can't really say that
about that much else that I've,

Rupert Isaacson: well
except everything in life.

I mean,

Helen Sharp: yeah, I don't know.

I feel like I've gotten to

Rupert Isaacson: the heart of some stuff

Helen Sharp: collectively,
selectively o cd

Rupert Isaacson: we clearly dunno
about, but I agree with you.

Horses are definitely one that

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Is the

Rupert Isaacson: lifetime
many lifetimes of study?

Yeah,

Helen Sharp: it just, yeah, the
interest just took me over and

so I was with, I was kind of.

And I was obviously trying to learn about
horses more and more and more as well.

'cause it had been a long time since I'd
been around them and, and then I'm good

at research and I'm, you know, when I was
putting all together and then I just got

an opportunity, I was writing for free for
people for a while, for a few magazines

and then, and then actually it was Hos
and Hound was my first actually paid gig.

So I was That's hilarious

Rupert Isaacson: that you go from being
knocked out in BEUs in a motorcycle

helmet as performance art to Orson hard.

Helen Sharp: It seems normal to me.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, yeah.

And that then from there, then it
kind of went on and then I, I am.

Eternally and forever.

The Irish field, to me, was the
pinnacle of great journalism in, in

horse, in, in equestrian writing.

And why?

I think they're brilliantly talented.

I think the racing writers
whether you like racing or not,

they're incredible writers.

I think the editors have been fantastic.

I think the quality of what's put out
on a small team of eight, a hundred and

twenty five pages a week covering every
single aspect of Equestrianism, you know,

I just always thought it was fantastic.

And it's the absolute.

And I, and I wrote for them for
five years, once a month, and

then a job came up and I didn't
get it, you know, full-time.

And then I went for the
job again a year later.

And I did get it.

And it's the privilege of my life, I have
to say, to write for the Irish field.

I went freelance this year because
I wanted to grow the charity,

but I was full-time with them
for four, nearly four years.

And.

I just, and I, and I still, I
just, I love them as human beings

and I love the publication.

And I still get a kick of, like,
tonight we went to print five minutes

before we started, and tomorrow
morning I'll go into town and I'll

be able to pick it up in the shop.

And I still love to read it.

I've read half of it.

I've written some of it.

Yeah.

Cup of tea in the Irish field.

Pleasure.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So you get over to Belfast, you're doing
performance art, and people are showing

up saying, what's all this bollocks?

You know, we want, as you said,
we want the bins changed and

we want people to stop dying.

And here are you swinging from
anchors or whatever you're doing.

Mm-hmm.

Fuck you.

Probably that was a little bit there.

And at the same time, I can
also imagine that they were

like, but also welcome because.

The Irish North or south value,
art value divine Madness.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Well, if I learned very soon from,
from a, an example that I love sharing

is that because it shows there's
different ways, there's always something

can always come from something.

So a sculptor whose name I, I can't
remember now, but he had, he had,

in the very early days of the peace
process, he had made a sculpture in a

place called Carlisle Circus, which is
right on an interface in North Belfast.

And he had done a great big dove of peace.

And I'll never not laugh at the
fact that, that the community,

the two communities from each side
came out in unison to destroy it

Rupert Isaacson: on that one thing.

They could agree.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

So that was, so to me that was
like an aha moment kind of thing

of, you know, ways and means.

But yeah, you.

I look, I'm a di, I'm quite direct
and I'm quite sort of adventurous and

I'm not, I'm perhaps not as floaty.

Well, I'm gonna off fend loads
of people, but I, I just always

came in with a very kind of open
and, and real way of discussing

things and I was told to fuck off.

And at times when I went in to
try and pitch a sculpture that the

council had employed me to go in and
said, look, here's 50,000 pounds.

Can you make a sculpture or a piece
of artwork with this community?

You know, here's, here's a
quarter of a, you know, here's a

quarter of the side of a pavement.

Can you design something with the
community that means something to them?

And, you know, you have, you have to
learn to do things differently and to look

at the truth of what's in front of you.

So the.

One of the brilliant projects we did
with a community that said no to, to

what the council wanted us to build.

So I got in a really good
friend of mine who's an art.

What

Rupert Isaacson: did the
council want you to build?

Helen Sharp: They wanted, we used to
call 'em community lumps, you know,

something no one could hang themselves
on or a kid couldn't, you know, nothing

connect, nothing can, like nothing.

They could be used as

Rupert Isaacson: a weapon

Helen Sharp: and like nobody could, you
know, climb it and nobody, so there was

like, the options were always just, so
I remember having a brainstorm with a

friend of mine who's an artist, Nikki Q.

And what we did instead was we
gave the kids loads of cameras

and the site where the artwork was
supposed to be was a piece wall.

So this had like, you know, bits
where mortar bombs had been in it

and sort of gunshot marks on it.

And we took the kids down there
and we were like, right, we're

gonna photograph what's here.

And they were like, well,
there's nothing here.

And we're kind of like,
you know, are you sure?

And we'd given them micro
lenses on the cameras.

So we went on a wildlife hunt
on this wall, and of course

we got 'em to take pictures.

So there's like centipedes,
snails, you know, we found a frog.

We found all this stuff on the
verge by this long piece wall.

And then we blew where we blew
their photographs up massive and

put them onto the peace walls.

So it became alive with the
wildlife of this dead space.

And I remember just watching the
kids, just their minds just kind

of going, what this thing had
represented before to what it became.

It was just wonderful.

Like it was brilliant, you know, but
just teaches you a way of you don't

have to do things A to B, you know?

Mm-hmm.

You can go a ZB, you know,

it's okay.

So

Rupert Isaacson: you, you, you find
yourself in the community there.

And obviously it's a troubled community
because it's the troubles and.

At the same time, you're rediscovering
horses and you're discovering riding.

How do you go from there to where
you are now with groundwork?

Helen Sharp: Actually, I, so I went and
did a, I went as a mature student to cre.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Who, I just, what is CRE for
those, those people who are

listening from Montana or Dubai?

If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Helen Sharp: It's the College of
Agriculture in there's, there's two,

but this is the equine department
and handily for me, it's 12 miles

down the road from where I live.

It's a fantastic college,
amazing props to them.

So I just.

Wasn't afraid to be humiliated, and it
was really humiliating because you're in

a class of 16 and 17-year-old girls who
just think, you're like, oh God, what is

this fat middle-aged woman doing here?

You know, who was really keen and
wanted to ask loads of questions

and they just wanted to kill you.

Enthusiastic.

All the attack.

Yeah, like

Rupert Isaacson: a cardinal sin.

Helen Sharp: The worst, you know?

So I did that just as a kind of,
you know, it was just a, it was

just to do something differently.

Anyway, I did that and I kept writing.

Then I decided I was really
interested in muscles and horses.

So I went off to the College
of Physiotherapy in England and

learned to be a massage therapist.

Before, or before.

It was kind of, there wasn't a lot of
it about, it was like selling voodoo

when I came back and was trying to,
but I actually did that for three

years and I ended up treating.

Olympic horses right down to pony school.

And I loved it.

But what I learned doing that this is,
this is a roundabout way of seeing what

I learned most about, that I learned
about energy and I learned about owners

and people and people around horses.

And I had to stop doing, my hands
actually gave out with this rheumatism,

so I, my hands kind of gave out 'cause
it's really hardcore doing the massage.

And so then I had to find something
else to do and I took a bit of time out

and then just wrote and wrote and wrote
and then just decided three years ago.

But I was gonna put everything together.

That's genuinely how I felt it was.

I put everything together, the community
work, the equine therapy work, my

own experiences, and it just all felt
like the river had run to that point.

And it felt natural in
the right thing to do.

Rupert Isaacson: So now there you
are, you're working with, you've

told us about veterans and police
who've come up through the troubles.

These are the people who are carrying the
shoulders of that violence or carrying

that violence on their shoulders rather.

Mm-hmm.

You also work with teens.

Mm-hmm.

Who, okay, it's a bit of a cold war
there, but it's not the hot war that

those 60 year olds grew up with.

Talk to us about them.

What are they facing and
what are you doing with them?

Helen Sharp: Yeah, it's a little bit of
a different approach and I think this

is actually where I think I probably am
a little bit more delicate around them.

I mean, intergenerational trauma, right?

It's huge here.

I.

There's a lot of, as I was saying,
there's, it's a 25% higher rate for,

for kids and young people in than
the, here, than than the rest of

the UK for mental health problems.

We laugh a lot.

I mean, I do, I laugh a lot with
the adults anyway, but we laugh a

lot and you know, we've got one kid
that's been with us a long time now

who doesn't, hasn't been to school
in a year and a half, I think this is

skateboarding and this is pretty much
the thing that is the only thing we

can get her parents can get her to do.

And they've written a couple of
letters to us to say they just can't

believe because she was really non,
almost nonverbal when she came to us.

And just through making her
kind of laugh while we go along,

it's been really different.

But watching her use our voice.

So to create partnership and as you
know, and to, and to ask horses to

work with you, sometimes you have to.

Give voice.

Voice, you know, and, and it helps.

Yeah.

Yeah, it does.

Really helps.

But actually, if you're not used
to being loud or using your voice

or you've been timid, or you've
been bullied, you've been silenced.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Really hard thing to do too.

To learn to do.

We always tell her it's
her death, metal voice.

She likes heavy metal, you know?

So it's kind of like she's,
she's asking her stop.

Yeah, she's going stop.

But she needs to, you know, but actually
her family were telling us that now she,

she has started to use authority with
a really badly behaved dog they have

at home, which she'd never done before.

But the dog is responding because
she's learned to use her voice.

And the parents, it's kind of blowing
their parents' mind and also her

obviously where, where we are based.

It's very beautiful.

It's an estate and it's
green and it's gorgeous.

And part of what we do with a
lot of the kids is they just take

the horse for the, for a walk.

Suddenly the, the, the kid starts
commenting on the light, like

on the way home, in the car.

Yeah.

And the parents can't leave it because
she's been in her room for the last five

days, but she's coming back in that hour.

They always say the hour after in the
car, when they're on the way home,

when she's, when after the thing.

She's noticing the world in
a way that she never did.

And is so those two things, I always
still say that the, the nonclinical

setting is hugely important to us.

And one of the things I must just put
in there is that the, the feedback

we are getting from the psychologist
at Brook House that we work in

partnership with, he is saying to
us he actually wants to run a pilot.

But he is saying to us that what he is
finding with the, with the veterans is

that any of the veterans that he, that,
that are closed to talk therapy, once

they've done the horse program, they
become a lot more open to talk therapy.

It's quite funny because they usually
land down to us and don't want to talk.

That's one of the things
a lot of them admit to.

I've talked it all out, you know,
anybody who's been through a lot

of therapy knows how that feels.

It's like, I just don't
wanna talk about it anymore.

I wanna groom this horse
and just not say anything.

You know?

But it's really interesting that it's
that this psychologist feeding back that,

and he's, he's to be convinced, you know,
he's not like necessarily on a on side.

He's becoming that way.

Thankfully.

We're proving him that it's, you
know, it's worth his attention.

But he is saying it's, it's
becoming a definite pathway.

And then I have a friend who runs
the, the Castle Re Prison Project,

which was the first horse project in
Europe, in the prison in Ross Common.

He was up visiting us the other day, but
I've been down to see him and he has said

the prison have reported the same thing.

So prison prisoners that refuse talk
therapy in the prison, if they do

the 12 week horse course, they're
more open to doing it after it.

Interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it is.

I mean, as you might know with Horse
Boy Method what we stumbled into was

the production of oxytocin in the body.

And so with my son, for example, who's
nonverbal, suddenly he was verbal and

we were like, oh, well why is this?

And then little by little with working
with other kids, then going back to the

neuroscientists and having them explain
to us what was going on, they're like,

ah, when you're working with the horse in
these rhythms, you're getting oxytocin.

This is with small kids
mounted in front of us.

But of course, oxytocin
comes in many ways.

And it can come with empathetic touch and
mammal to mammal, mammalian caregiving

system, stroking your dog, having a
hug getting a smile from somebody.

That.

Okay.

We know that's gonna open the doors
to communication because oxytocin

is the hormone of communication.

Yeah.

It's interesting though that you,
you said nonclinical setting.

Hmm.

As much as possible, we train
people to work in nature.

We say get out of the arena
because the arena is sterile.

If you have to be in the arena,
the weather's terrible, whatever.

Yeah.

Or you have to be inside,
bring the outside inside.

Can you get a bunch, a hundred
little trees from the nursery and

create a forest in your arena?

Can you paint a forest on
the walls of your arena?

Can you be imaginative this way?

The answer is of course, yes.

If you wanna be, not if
you don't want to be.

And can you create within your
indoor therapy setting the feeling

of nature plants, even if they're.

Fake plants, you know, whatever
you are on this beautiful estate.

Mm-hmm.

So you are on, you are, you
are in a position to observe

the agency that nature gives.

Mm-hmm.

Can you talk to us about that?

Helen Sharp: Yeah, I think it's
a bit like space and air and kind

of fundamental elemental stuff.

I suppose we've gone a little bit
of a step further than bringing it

inside necessarily in those forms,
although it is a brilliant idea.

I know you do that, but we've actually
just devised and we've just had the

go ahead that it's gonna be funded.

So we've got together with the
head gardener, who's counselor,

and we've devised a 10 week program
where clients do we meet in the

walled garden, we do garden nature
therapy, and in the forest one week.

Then we go down to the yard the next week.

But we carry the themes through.

So we do five weeks of garden and five
weeks of horse basically intertwined.

We're really interested to see that,
how, how, how that goes, how that goes.

But it just seemed like a
really natural collaboration.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Helen Sharp: Do gold dormant is the
counselor and he is absolutely fantastic

and very knowledgeable and he's actually
going through his paces now with

horses 'cause he wasn't a horseman.

So we're, we thought that Fiona's
teaching him because it's important

that he knows what's going on, you know?

So we're trying to sort of like do
it on a macro level of let's take the

horses up to the wall, up to the wall
garden and let's bring the gardeners

down into the arena, you know?

So, yeah, it's a cool program.

It's a summer program, you
know, but also we do hard work.

I was telling you about the young
stock and mine have, you know, I know

how to raise a, a, you know, a, a
good, a good full and a youngster.

And I quite often, I really like the brood
mares to work with, with, with people.

Women in particular actually,
because they're quite, you know,

breed mares can be difficult and
opinionated and brilliant in that way.

And once you start teaching 'em about
to watch their ears and how they're

managing the whole household, as
we call it, the herd with the ears.

And you can have great discussions
standing in the fields with some

breed mares, you know, and I've
seen it, I've seen a lot of good

work that we've done there with,

Rupert Isaacson: with

Helen Sharp: women as well.

So you're, so you're
doing that in the field?

The horses are in the natural
environment, you know, people

do hard work all the time.

But I find the Brime herd really
interesting because they're so

opinion, you know, they're so, I.

The alpha female is, is pretty obvious
usually, or the, the current, the

whoever's, whoever's managing the herd.

But women open up a lot about
the burdens of managing a family

in that situation, you know?

I can

Rupert Isaacson: imagine.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

It's cool.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And for, for for a large
herbivore life or death, right.

I mean also for carnivore, honestly,
if you, but it just as for a human

mother, once you've got kids, that's it.

Yeah.

It's life or death.

To see that reflected, I could
absolutely see the value.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Or, or like at the minute, I've got
a couple of, they're at that age and

a quite cheeky cults, you know, a
thoroughbred cult and a sports horse cult.

But like, how many women are coming
through this course with teenage boys?

Loads?

And it's not about, you
don't have to, you know, I'm.

Absolute master of the clean question.

I know my place, I'm not a therapist,
I'm not a, but as soon as you put

someone who's got an unruly son, you
know, even it's outside the stable door

with these, we have huge triple size
stables, you know, all our horses have,

or big pens, and they can stand there
and watch them interact in them, you

know, and, and it'll be so quick that
they start talking about their son.

Mm-hmm.

Or the problems that they're having
with their son or their son's on

drugs or their son is, and these
concerns that these women had.

So I think using different stock is,
is something that I'm quite proud of.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Helen Sharp: In our program.

Rupert Isaacson: I, I would agree.

When we were in Texas, we had
three stallions and initially we

thought, oh, we'll never use those,
you know, in the therapy program.

We totally ended up using
them in the therapy program.

And what was so interesting about
them was they absolutely had the

discernment to have one set of rules.

For the kids and the clients and
a whole other set of rules for us.

We were fair game, you know?

Totally.

As we should be because they, their
attitude was, oh, I see you want us

to be your professional partners here.

We can do that.

And we'll show some balance.

We'll push a little bit, we'll trigger
a little bit, but we'll also, you know,

validate and we'll do all of that.

And you'd watch them come out.

You're like, dude, that was awesome.

And they'd be like,
gimme some food, bitch.

You know, it was, it was so interesting.

And we also worked with young stock.

I so agree with you.

Of course, the difficulty is that
that's a hard, that's a tall order.

Yeah.

For most therapeutic places, it's,
it's not possible because there isn't

the manpower, there isn't perhaps
the space and there isn't perhaps

the intellectual capital among
the people who know how to handle.

That kind of stuff.

Yeah, it's definitely not,

Helen Sharp: yeah, it's definitely not.

I can't, you know, I can't
necessarily advocate for that.

I just know that with Fiona's
horsemanship and my own experience,

we're never gonna put anyone in danger.

Like, no one's going past the door.

But you can watch two
Colts for 20 minutes.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You can.

And I think to see, to, to, to be able
to have the luxury to be able to expose

people to the full range of authentic,
her behavior is going to absolutely

serve as an allegory for the monkeys.

Helen Sharp: That's it.

Like, if I was gonna write, if you
asked me to write down, you know, what's

your model like, I just couldn't do
it without a ra, without an age range.

You know, we've got a 27-year-old deaf,
former international show jumper who's

does his, who's the most incredible, and
we've got these young cults and we've got,

you know, and a little baby, she like.

The variety is incredible, but it serves.

It's so powerful.

It's so useful.

Rupert Isaacson: Where
are you going with this?

In your perfect world, let's
project forward a little bit.

Five years, 10 years, where do you wanna
bring it and where would you like to

see the equine assisted world get to?

Helen Sharp: Probably the same answer
that most people have in terms of, I would

love it in Ireland, the island of Ireland.

I suppose it, for it to be prescribable
from every possible angle that it can

be prescribable from, you know, and
I keep making the argument as well.

It's not just for people
in crisis, you know?

Sure, sure.

I.

I ended up here also because horses
were really helpful for me too.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.

Helen Sharp: 12 years of horses.

If you ask me what they did for me, well
they probably changed everything, you

know, I'm just trying to share that, I
suppose in a lot of ways, like most of,

a lot of people in EAS have gone into
it because horses have helped them, but

access to horses, you know, access to
access to these animals that we have such

a long standing and basically make it part

Rupert Isaacson: of the
national health system.

Helen Sharp: A hundred percent.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Helen Sharp: It's a no brainer to me,
but you know, also I'm very realistic

in terms of is, is this business
model that we have in terms of, it's a

charity like, can I not do another job?

Well, no, I have to have another
job, which means that I'm restricted

because the money that we do
get for will pay for the horses.

You know, but I'm always gonna
have to have another job at the

minute because I can't afford to.

And I think there's a lot of pressure
and really getting really high horsey

about the pressure that the equine
assisted services practitioners are

putting, almost putting on themselves.

It's like, don't eat yourself as a sector.

Like, you know, social license is not your
responsibility because you're doing EAS.

We can all try our best, but
like, and be nicer to each other.

It's a bit like you said in cre, I think
your talk, it resonated with me so much.

I just thought, God, that's the
first time I've heard someone say,

you know, let's not be competitive.

Like, let's work together and let's
not be shitty with each other.

You know?

But also we have to, we have to
look out for the mental health

of the ES EAS practitioners
because they're not all great.

You know, they're not all.

Big organizations.

It's mainly in Ireland.

Anyway, one person, honestly,
that's, that's everywhere.

Rupert Isaacson: It's it, it, it's
the, it's only very recently, certainly

in my work that we've started to
work with larger organizations.

It was all Backyard.

Yeah.

Things like You, like Me, you know, that
may change in 20 years, but you're right.

It does need to be part
of Standard Healthcare.

Yeah.

I dunno if you've listened to
the podcast that we did with

Nor On, nor on Cota from Norway.

Helen Sharp: Not yet.

Rupert Isaacson: It is
part of it up there.

Helen Sharp: Wow.

Cool.

And it's really

Rupert Isaacson:
interesting to talk to her.

She's a, she's a, a physician, but
she's also a psychiatrist and she

runs this amazing program up there.

And it's interesting to talk
to her about the history of why

it evolved that way in Norway.

Why they value nature's therapy and
sort of have a tradition of that.

I guess they weren't under the thumb
of the church in quite the same way.

And interestingly away from the
church in western culture, science

has replaced religious zealotry.

Hmm.

So now that we can begin to prove, now
that the neuroscientists are behind us,

you know, we, we had this extraordinary
experience last September in America

where for the first time a medical school
asked us to come in and as new trails,

learning systems, movement method,
horse by method to put on a neuroscience

conference at the medical school.

I.

Only because Dr.

Meghan McGovern, a well-respected
physician and autism mum in that

area of Virginia, has been running
an amazing program now with

autism and horses for some years.

Amazing.

And kind of word gets round and so I,
I do see the thing moving forward, but

I love that you're saying yes, it needs
to be part of standard healthcare.

It needs to be preventative,
not just crisis.

And we, practitioners of it

need to stop nipping
at each other's heels.

Whether or not that
will happen is another.

Helen Sharp: Oh yeah.

Go on.

Also to be, also to be brutal
and I'm gonna be brutal.

I think it is like also think about.

It's like, think about
yourself as a business too.

Like don't think,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it's a little
bit, don't Marty yourself hand.

Helen Sharp: Like don't Marty yourself.

Exactly.

And I think that's something
that we could talk about more.

I think everybody could talk about more.

It's a subject for a symposium or
it's a, it's like why are you putting

yourself in this kind of luer position?

Oh, I've got, is it because
you've got an old discard pony?

I'm always thinking about
can we, how would you breed?

How would you breed an
equine assisted horse?

Like what, what were the traits?

It's a bit of a side discussion, but
it's kind of, you know, a lot of people

just because they're, they're horse is
secondhand, if you like, or discarded

that they're already, you know, oh, I'm
just doing this thing here with, well,

Rupert Isaacson: and also, yeah, I
think, I think when you're involved

in equine assisted work if you've been
in it for many years, you are used to

that approach from people saying, oh.

Either.

Oh, that's nice.

You play with ponies
or kind of arms folded.

Explain to me why this doesn't suck.

Yeah.

Well now the neuroscience is pretty
clear on why it doesn't suck.

But nonetheless, I think we've all had to
run that gauntlet and come up through that

thing of trying to ask for attention for
what we all know works and is necessary.

Probably we'll look at the, we'll
all be, you know, 85 looking at the

next generation, coming up going,
oh, you guys have it so easy.

You have no idea what we went through.

Helen Sharp: I've just gonna say, oh
yeah, you guys have all paved the way.

So it's all very well me sitting
here going like, you know, you

know, but yeah, confidence.

Yeah, confidence comes because of the
foundation that you guys have all set, but

it's like, I still just see a lot of it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah, no, for sure.

And you know, also, 'cause it's
female led, it's, it's a female driven

Helen Sharp: estrogen assisted services.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So, you know, the medical
establishment is still largely male.

Yeah.

I'm not saying that when it's no longer
male, it will be any easier for equine

assisted services, but it might be
and certainly it's interesting to me,

for example, what happened to us at
Eastern Virginia Medical School there.

Well that was through a female
doctor talking to another female

administrator in that college.

Would that have happened 15 years ago?

I dunno dunno.

Different generation, different genders.

Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think
so because it, it, it didn't Right.

Happened now.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

I think the respect for equine assisted
services kind of has to go hand in hand.

The equine assisted services
has to have respected itself.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

You know

Helen Sharp: what I mean?

And that's, some have it and,
and, and, but I'd say the majority

are still a little bit tentative.

And I suppose that's my more bold, almost

Rupert Isaacson:
apologetic for what we do.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Like, let's stop doing that.

Yeah.

You know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Okay.

If people wanna find out
more, how do they contact you?

Helen Sharp: Well, we don't
really do social media.

I do have a thing, but probably
the website is the best.

So it's www dot grand work.

E s.org.

Rupert Isaacson: Grand work or ground?

Helen Sharp: Ground.

That's my accent ground.

I was gonna

Rupert Isaacson: say, I,
I thought you fe grand.

So, groundwork.

Groundwork,

Helen Sharp: Groundwork, EAS org

Rupert Isaacson: groundwork.

EAS

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Dot org.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: They
can contact you there.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright, now we are
making this we are making this podcast

in March of 2025 in May of 2025.

That is the first European gig of
something called Seen Through Horses,

which is the work of Lynn Thomas who used
to run EG gala and is now running horses

for mental health and arenas for change.

Talk to us a little bit about that.

She selected you guys to tell your story.

Why, how and how can we help?

Helen Sharp: Well, I, I, we, I
followed the campaign last year

and I followed horses for mental
health in the beginning and.

Being an athlete, I really, it was
beautifully put together, so it caught

my attention and I had joined Arenas for
Change failed miserably in keeping up

with what I was supposed to be doing.

But had chatted to Lynn then,
and Lynn had been recommended to

me by my friend Jennifer Barker
that runs Racing To Relate.

Also you'd mentioned her as well,
that she'd be a good person to

talk to, but I, I sort of hadn't
put those two things together.

And then I saw that they'd done the call
out for the scene through Horses campaign

this year, and I just kind of thought,

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm,

Helen Sharp: that's all in America,
but is it all in America and does

it have to all be in America?

So I just emailed them.

I wrote them a letter and said, you
know, I'd really love to be involved

and, and I dunno how, and maybe it
won't be until next year, or maybe I

can just follow along or, and they got
back in touch and we talked a bit and

yeah, then they said that, they were
gonna go ahead and, and we were gonna

be the pilot project for the scene
through horses for the global campaign.

So we'd be the first
European one, as you said.

And really on the back of that, I suppose
if we do well in our fundraising, which

is part of the scene through horses
project, everyone raises money, it goes

into a pot, and then it's divided by the,
I think it's 106 EAS things this year.

Then, then I'm hoping that
the, then seeing through horses

will become a thing in Europe.

So it's kind of, I feel like I, I've
gotta do a really good job because if

I do well for groundwork and me and
Fiona managed to raise the money and

then hopefully it'll open the door for
everybody else in Europe to be part of

the project or be able to be selected for
the project and everybody wins, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It's, I think, I think what I'd
like people to take from what

you just said is don't be afraid.

To send an email, send a letter,
even if you think you haven't got a

chance or it's not relevant to you.

If you, back to what you were
saying about don't be timid that

you just thought, you know, sold it.

I'm just gonna contact
them and well, boom.

And I've, I've spent my life doing that
and I've also had people say no to me

a bunch of times, and that's all right.

Sometimes though there's same
people that said no, said yes later.

Yeah.

Then at least you're on the radar and then
at least you're having a conversation.

Don't worry if people say no, don't worry.

If the first contact is not the ideal Hmm.

Take it from there.

So, okay.

I suggest that we come and do a
fundraiser of some sort at groundwork

and we'll be talking about that.

So any of you lad's listening, why
don't we give it a go and come.

Have a little fun in the north of
Ireland now also, because this is

2025, the Horse Boy Tribe Day will
be happening actually at Kil Coon.

Our mutual friend Terry Brosnan's place
Stewart's Care, the equine unit there

outside of Dublin, August 9th to 11th.

So maybe we should tag something
onto that and come on up and so Cool.

Do something.

All right.

Really cool.

And any of you people listening who might
want to come to Tribe Day and then come

on up to Helen's place in county Firma.

I mean, we might have
fun if we go to Ireland.

I mean, you know, it's
possible I suppose, you know,

Helen Sharp: any of probity,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, if

Helen Sharp: we,

Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think you
could not have fun in Ireland, but

you'd have to put some effort into it.

Why don't we, let's go up there.

So that's my challenge, throwing
it out there to all y'all.

Okay.

So give us the website one
more time, then we'll sign off.

And I'm gonna have you
back on in a few months.

We're gonna talk about where, where
the scene through Horses campaign went.

Helen Sharp: Cool.

Rupert Isaacson: So yeah,

Helen Sharp: you can get, so you can
have a look at what we do at www dot

groundwork, all one word, EA s.org.

Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

Helen Sharp: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Helen, thank you.

It's been brilliant.

Helen Sharp: Thank you so much.

Less horses than other people
possibly, but a fantastic chat.

I've enjoyed it.

So thank you so much.

Rupert Isaacson: It's all
about getting the job done.

We all do it in the
different ways that we do.

The important thing is that we
do it and we help each other out.

Okay.

It's been an honor.

Thank you.

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