Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

Today I have autism Mum and Director of
Chats in Virginia, which is an extremely

cutting edge equine assisted outfit.

Megan McGovern, doctor Megan
McGovern, and by doctor I don't

mean PhD, I mean physician,

but also as I said, autism mum.

And she has a very interesting story
to tell, not dissimilar from mine in

some ways, in terms of being forced
to do this out of necessity rather

than because she woke up in the
morning saying, well, I want to run a

equine assisted equine therapy unit.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Mm-hmm.

I don't

Rupert Isaacson: think that was
ever really on her list of dreams.

However, what she's done with it over the
last almost decade has brought our line

of work into the mainstream for medicine.

So, I think we should let
Megan talk about this.

Hey Megan, thanks for coming on.

Tell us who you are, what you do.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I am an internal medicine physician,
and I previously was an active duty

Navy doctor before, like I served my
time and got out and then I've been

in, in private practice ever since.

And my first son, his name
is Cole, and he's 13 now, but

he's the one that's autistic.

And then I have neurotypical
twin boys, Sebastian and Ashton.

They're eight.

And Cole was not responding to
the normal therapies that are

recommended by physicians, whether
they're family practice, pediatrician

developmentalist, neurologist.

He, he wasn't, or as a matter of
fact, I, he continued to regress as

I added on therapy after therapy.

He got diagnosed at age four, and by
age five he became failure to thrive.

Pretty much fully nonverbal.

He might say five or 10 things in a day,
but half of 'em were the same thing.

May have been like go I remember go.

But and then they
threatened a feeding tube.

They offered me inpatient care at a major
medical center about an hour from here.

And things got pretty
bad by the age of five.

I read all the books from I.

Cleveland Clinic and
Harvard and all that stuff.

And I was already doing all those things.

And then I read Rupert's book, the
Horseplay, and it was the only book,

hi, been, he was like the seventh or
eighth book in and it was the only

one, like within 20, 25 pages, I was
like, I've gotta contact this man.

And I happened to be on vacation and
I emailed him from the plane before it

took off and eagerly awaited a response.

And then it took cold to new
trails in October with my husband.

And, you know, that's sort of a wrap.

That's sort of how it all started.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's just
dial back a little bit.

When you say you tried all the therapies
or the recommended therapies and Cole

regressed, can you be a bit more specific?

What did you try?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: And then how and
why do you think he regressed?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well I think that he was just one
of the many autistic children that

don't necessarily respond to the
few therapies that are, you know,

proven supposedly in clinical trials.

But he was in special
education in the school system.

He was getting speech
and OT at the school.

He was getting speech and OT privately.

He was getting a, B, a, A, B, A to
the point that our insurance did

not cover a, b, A at that time.

So we were paying about $5,000 a month
for a BA, which made him, made him purely

upset and pissed off like the whole time.

I mean, he'd stand there and have,
be made to brush his teeth for 30

minutes and if, I mean, it was just,
it was just not a great scenario.

It, he was I know that it can
help m many children, but it

just, it was not helping Cole.

But we, you know, when I say we gave
it our best effort, you know, my

husband was working tons of extra
shifts to pay for the A BA because

that was pretty much the only thing
we hadn't been doing prior to getting

diagnosed at four, we were already doing
speech, OT and the special education.

We also added on Brain Balance, which
is a I thought a pretty well researched

neuroscience based program, program.

And we did that for like
two and a half years.

I drove him, you know, 45 minutes
there and back twice a week.

I also then had him in a feeding
clinic that was an hour and a

half hour-ish away once a week
when he became Failure to Thrive.

Did that for two years.

So I was doing all of those
things and he continued to worse.

Him and I, I will say that
occupational therapy, that has

definitely helped him over time.

I've actually followed and kept the same
occupational therapist the entire time.

He's only been with one person, and that
has definitely helped, but like early on

it wasn't, it wasn't getting him anywhere.

It wasn't, it was not
helping the overall picture.

Rupert Isaacson: Why do you
think he regressed and worsened

under these therapies to the
point of needing a feeding tube?

And what do you think
was going on with that?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, I mean, one of the major, there
were a lot of, there were a lot of things

going on then, you know, he would have
meltdowns all the time, and at that point

we didn't know why or what, what was,
you know, but it was like he would have

a meltdown for 45 minutes, couldn't do
anything about it, and then you were okay.

You know, finally it was okay
and then, and then it would

happen again like an hour later.

It was just like you were
in a war zone all the time.

One of the things that was going on with
school was he would not eat at school.

I mean, what, what kid can like function
throughout the day and actually like,

have any progress when you won't eat.

But he wouldn't eat for other
people, it just, his eating

just got more and more narrow.

It had to be with the exact person at
the exact right time and the exact.

Car seat or chair.

I mean, if, if something was off
he then he just wouldn't eat and

he surely wouldn't eat at school.

We, we even tried so you to always
wanna get chili from Chili's restaurant,

the grilled cheese and french fries.

So I even literally like sort getting
that to go and then taking that to school.

They even were nice enough and
gave us, they knew us so well

because we would take him there.

Cassie actually would take him
there like every day after school.

My

Rupert Isaacson: caregiver.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yep.

She would take him to Chili's from school
so that he would finally, finally eat

and then they like gave us the exact red
baskets that they used the paper so that

we could try and mimic it at school.

And he just, he just, he just
wouldn't also, you know, he, he

took longer to potty train like you
mostly hear, but he did very well.

I mean, he was potty trained by
four, four and a half, which, you

know, I think that's reasonable.

But, you know, he'd be at school and
they'd tell me he peed his pants.

Yeah.

It just was I just think it was
the environment, you know, they do

their best, but I'm not putting any
school system down or sha you know,

I just, they have limited resources.

They have limited they have limited
help and I just don't think it

was the right environment for him.

Yeah, I, I get phone calls all the time.

Oh, he bit somebody again.

Oh, he won't come back into the
classroom after you tried to transition.

I think the, the, the just the overall
environment was too stressful for him.

And then also just not eating all day.

I mean, who, who can, who can
function like that, you know?

Yeah.

I also found out like, I mean, this is
what it is, but being in a specialized

education classroom, you know, you have
various special needs kids in there.

Some are screaming all day, some
are banging their heads all day.

Some are, some are aggressive, you
know, and, and I found out after

the fact that you know, that there
were some aggressive kids with him.

You know, he, he would come home and
he'd have marks on him, and the teachers

wouldn't know where it was from.

Like, you know, I think one of the
reasons why when he transitioned to say

music and then he'd have to go back into
his main room, I think he didn't wanna

go back in because of the, the high
stimulation that he was getting in there.

That was just too much for him.

I don't know.

It was, it was, it was
very, very miserable.

And, and he could never, it's not
like I could say Cole, you know,

how was your day or what happened?

I mean, there's there, there's
nothing like, you know, so, you know,

sending your kid to a school where
you don't know what's happening, you

don't know how they're responding
to when he, when he bites one of

the teachers or bites somebody else.

Like it is just very I.

Just always on edge, always feeling like,
I don't know if I should be doing this.

Maybe I should keep him home.

Maybe I need to figure out how to
homeschool him, even though I am a

full-time career person and wanted
nothing to do with homeschooling.

Not that I think anything bad about
it, I just, I didn't wanna give up

my career to, to homeschool him,
but it turns out I didn't have to.

But, you know, that was like a very
big fear for me then to, to figure

out how the heck was I gonna do that?

And then when he turned five, another
thing that could've, you know, made

him go worse, I don't know, was,
was that the twins were born when he

was five, so I'm sure that was, you
know, potentially stressful for him.

Yeah.

Not right now.

Cole, go read a book.

No.

No.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, so school, I,
I can understand this because Rowan, my

son, went through a very similar thing.

He began to, you know, cry as
I was driving him up to school,

he began to really, really,
really not want to go in there.

And it got worse.

And it got worse.

And then after we took a
break from the local, I.

Special ed school.

We tried again at sort of the
Hippiest school we could find in

a lovely naturey place in Austin.

And he just, at that point, just flat out,
he was verbal enough to say he took off

all his clothes, rolled around in the dirt
and said, I want to be a countryside boy.

And that was even with him
being sent with a caregiver.

And I was like, dude, I
hear you loud and clear.

Alright, we'll do it.

And of course we'd never look
back, but like you, I was like,

I do not wanna homeschool.

Yeah.

But I kind of did.

But like you, and we'll get
listeners, we'll get there that

you can kind of homeschool and
not homeschool at the same time.

It's actually possible to hit this really
interesting middle ground, but we'll,

we'll, we'll get there in a minute.

So just hold on for that.

Let's go to the a BA.

Why do you think the therapists were so
pushy with him and so uncompromising?

Why, why do you think they were
not willing to work around and take

a less pressure-filled approach?

What was going on with it?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I'm not sure, but I do know that
that we were getting therapists

that were barely even trained.

Like, it was in, at least in our
area there were not, there was a long

wait list, and then you'd get in with
somebody and they'd say, oh yeah,

they have somebody come out for you.

And then and then he, and then the
person that would come out, like

literally just started, literally
just finished their training.

And I, I just don't think they
had the experience to I don't

think they had the experience.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But it seems that, I mean, 'cause
we went through this as well with

Rowan, that we had a very experienced
a, BA therapist, for example.

But this person was not only unwilling
to modify anything for R no matter

as you, you know, you were talking
about how distressed Cole was getting,

you know, Rowan would literally
try to climb through the wall.

And I remember thinking,
wow, I'm a horse trainer.

If I am in a ramp him with a horse, and
the horse is trying to climb out over

the fence to get away from me, I will at
least change something that I'm doing.

Because just from a purely
selfish perspective, I could

get killed in that situation.

But that's such an extreme reaction that
it's telling one loud and clear that

something needs to change, something
needs to be modified, something, you

know, and I remember when we would
suggest this, the, we would get a

very aggressive pushback rather than.

Well, okay.

I dunno, your kid, you know,
I'm not terribly experienced.

What do you suggest?

Or can we talk about this together?

And there was no allowance of
the family, the parent, the

kid, to have any kind of voice.

So that, I can imagine that, you know,
some of these people coming out to you

sure we're young and inexperienced they're
also human beings with some common sense.

What do you think was preventing them
from just being able to exercise that

compassion and common sense and just,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I think that they were just trying
to follow the protocol of what they

were supposed to do and what they were
learn, what, what they were taught.

And I don't think they knew
how I, I, I don't, yeah.

To be honest, I, I think that a
lot A, BCBA gets paid a lot of

money compared to like some other
things in the medical field.

And I think a lot of people
look at that and like, oh,

well I can get trained quickly.

It's like 10, $12 more per hour than
what I would be able to make was

with a different type of medical job.

And I, and I honestly, I see that
frequently just as a physician.

So I'm not even sure the people that are.

You know, coming in that profession
are necessarily people that really

have the heart for what they're doing.

You know, I think it, it, it
pays well, I mean, it does.

It's a well paying job and they train
you and it's a quick doesn't take

as, I mean, I, again, I'm not trying
to, I don't wanna, I don't wanna

put down a BA at all because I know
plenty of kids where it has totally

helped them and they are, you know,
fully functional now and independent.

I'm, I'm not trying to, this, this is
just my experience with it for about two

and a half years that that's all I had.

We had multiple people come because
they could, I don't know, it

was just not a great experience.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So then he ends up on
a feeding tube and he

Dr. Megan McGavern:

does not, he does not.

Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, he ended
up on as failure to thrive.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

He was, yep.

He lost eight pounds at
a, at five years of age.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

That's a lot at that age.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you're headed, you're looking
into, you're sort of looking down the

barrel of a, of a feeding tube basically.

Then you came out to new trails and
I remember when we first met that two

things really stood out, obviously, apart
from the, you know, just how big of a.

Struggle you were going through?

One was, when I first met
Cole was I remember thinking,

wow, this is a tough cookie.

This is somebody who, I dunno, I
dunno if I can do anything here.

And I remember being pretty upfront
about that and just be like, I, I

don't know, but let's give it a try.

At least the environment
will be different.

This we know and that there'll be certain
things that can happen with the horse.

This we know.

But I was rather worried
that he would hand me my ass.

And, uh, but the other thing which I
remember you saying to me, and correct me

if I'm wrong, was that you had actually
been told, or at least advised not to

give physical or to withhold physical
affection from him if he didn't comply.

I remember that being said,
and I remember thinking,

I can't compute why any sort of mental
health professional for children

would say something like that.

And that, that brought me up short.

Because I had also had these bad
experiences, the, the same experiences

as you with a, b, a and some other.

Behavioral types of, of therapy.

And at that point I remember thinking, ah,

the paradigm needs to shift because
it's as if people are saying the kids

are naughty as if they're making some
sort of decision here to be bad as

if they can actually understand and
follow top down instruction and are

just somehow deciding not to, which
means that the entire landscape is

just being so completely misunderstood.

Yeah.

You know,

and you know, I remember thinking,
gosh, you know, if, if even a

Navy physician can be kind of pushed
into that corner a little bit,

then it just shows the power of

the influence that people can wield
over people that are desperate.

And that made me sad and it
also made me angry and it made

me determined to not give up.

Can you give us in your words, like
you were at trials for five days,

I believe, and this was of course,
a radically different environment.

You'd had to take this
very, very difficult.

Human from Virginia to Texas.

That's a, a long way and into the unknown.

You arrive, there's a bunch of hippies,
you know, with ponies in the fields.

What were you, what are you, what were
your impressions of those five days?

I,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I remember

so this is what I vividly remember
was first day, I think we talked at

the, towards the end of the morning
or something, and I remember that I

was so overwhelmed by, and I started
to well up with tears and, you know,

and I was telling you that I was
doing speech therapy and occupational

therapy and special education.

He was getting that at the school.

And I'm doing brain balance and I'm,
I'm going to the feeding clinic and

I don't, in the brain balance stuff
was not just two days a week there.

It was also every day at home I had to
do all these exercises and have them

smell these different oils and have
them listen to this certain vibration.

I mean, I mean it was like my
life was consumed by all of this.

And you know, I just remember
like you saying, it's okay to.

Like, take, take a step
back and reevaluate and

maybe all this isn't needed.

And there's a different
way to sort of look at it.

And then I remember also that first
morning where we were, there was a

swing set there and what's the name?

Vonda I can't remember the girl's name.

But she.

He didn't wanna go on the swing
set, and I didn't really know what

movement method was at that point.

And, and she was just trying
to follow the child, right?

And I'm like, Cole loves the swing set.

Come on Cole.

You would go on the swing.

Come on here, take this swing.

You know?

Meanwhile, I'm supposed to be like, I
didn't know what movement method was

at this point where, and, and Vonda
was just trying to follow him and

f you know, and so I was like, no,
no, he really likes to swing here.

Come on, cope.

And I put him on the swing, you
know, and I, and then I realized

like by the end of the week, I was
like, oh gosh, Megan, you're stupid.

You're doing the exact wrong thing.

And then that same morning, and I
still like, will post a video of this

on social media when it comes up,
but he went on the horse and, and the

biggest smile like that you can imagine
from cheek to cheek, and he laughed.

And I mean, my God, I never,
like, I hardly ever heard it.

I hardly ever saw a smile.

I hardly ever heard the laugh.

I mean, he was just always like,
it was just hell, like all the

time and sadness, you know, you
couldn't do any normal stuff.

And, and I was just like, oh my gosh.

Oh my, you know, we and I were
like, and I, on the video,

I'm like, look, he's smiling.

Look, he's laughing.

You know, like I was just
like, you know, the mom voice

like screaming loud like I do.

And and I was just like, oh my gosh.

And then the next day it
was like the same thing.

So we, we came in the morning
for five days straight and it was

like three hour sessions, I think.

And so by the end of the second day.

That session we called, we
called home and canceled a BA.

It was just like a clear, I, you know, I
felt empowered by you saying, well, you

know, it's okay to try and change it.

Just because this isn't working doesn't
mean there's not something else.

Or maybe, you know, pull back
on some of these things and

just focus on this one thing.

It doesn't have to be all this
like 7,000 things that you're

trying to do all the time.

And and so I felt like empowered
that, yeah, you know, I already was

following my gut, but I was, I was
so worried that if I wasn't doing all

these treatments that, you know, are
supposed to help that, then what if

that, what if he wouldn't get somewhere?

Because I stopped one of them because
I felt like it wasn't working.

So I just sort of needed
somebody else to say that to me.

And then, yeah, so we called home that
afternoon and canceled a BA, which was

like a big, that was a big decision to
make after, you know, 'cause you felt

like that's what you're just told over
and over you know, to do a, BA to help

with all the behavioral part of it.

So, that was like the biggest things I
remember from, from that from that week.

Rupert Isaacson: And then what
happened when you did go home?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, funny enough, so when, when I,
when I came home, the plan was, you know,

always a plan, but the plan never happens.

The plan was that we were gonna take
him outta school come January, so

we were gonna have him finish his,
he was just starting first grade.

He'd only been in it for like six weeks.

And so I'm like, okay, this
is gonna gimme some time.

You know, I wanna prepare, I wanna
find people to help me implement

movement method and implement
a movement method program here.

And what happens, like, about a week
and a half after we get back, he, I

get a phone call from the school again,
he bit a teacher and the teacher's

pregnant because, you know, he didn't
wanna go back into the classroom again.

It was like a transition thing.

And it was like mid-morning, I'm at work,
I'm in the middle of seeing patients and

you know, it's just like, you feel bad.

And I'm like, I'm so sorry, you
know, but at the same time it's like,

enough is enough and I'm not gonna
swear, but enough is effing enough.

And I called my husband and
I'm crying and I'm like, done.

Done.

Like, we can't do the same way.

I can't, I can't get another phone call.

I can't do this anymore.

He's not okay there.

This isn't okay.

I'm gonna take him out.

And my husband agreed with
me and then all of a sudden.

I take 'em out and there
was no preparation.

And then I call you and I'm flipping out
and I'm like, this was like a Thursday.

And I call Rupert and I'm like, and oh,
then you're talking about, well, there's a

whole books on unschooling, the schooling,
and you could go to your favorite places

like Florida and whatever, and teaching
about the ocean and all this stuff.

And I'm like, I didn't
know you well enough then.

But I was like, I'm
gonna murder you ripper.

I'm gonna murder you.

I wanna plan, I wanna plan Now.

I am a preparer.

I'm Type A.

Like I don't wanna hear about unschooling.

I need to know, like, how do
I figure out the curriculum?

How do I blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, freaking out.

And your phone call was just
like trying to get me to like

totally get out of that mindset.

And, and it was, you were all
like, correct about all that.

But it was very hard to just have this big
open, oh, what the hell am I doing now?

Like, oh my gosh, what am I doing now?

Like, how, how am I gonna do this?

You know?

And also mind you, at the same time
I had n newborn while they were

like 12 months old twins taking
care of and still working full time.

So I mean, I was just like, I don't
know how the hell I'm gonna do this.

But that's pretty much what happened
not long after I went to New Trails.

Rupert Isaacson: Now you did
have one secret weapon at home.

You had a, a very important
person who's still I.

Very, very big in Cole's life.

You had Cassie, right?

You, you had a caregiver who was
by happy accident, by chance, by

God, whatever, but devoted when
you had to pull Cole out of school.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: You presumably
also, you didn't just ring me,

you also sat down with Cassie.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk us through that
conversation because both of you must

have been thinking shit, you know, okay.

What are we gonna do?

This is sort of outside of both
our experiences, but here it is.

Alright.

You know, talk, talk, talk us
through a little bit that, that Well,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I, I mean, I would say first she was very
supportive and she was also, you know,

she was also experiencing the same thing I
was going through with him and seeing him,

you know, it was just, it was very sad.

It was very hard.

And, you know, I think she just
she stayed supportive, but that

wasn't a hard thing at all.

The harder part was, at that time, I was
still very private about his diagnosis.

Like, my family still didn't
even know, because for me, I'm

like, oh, I'm a smart doctor.

You know, I'm gonna, you know, I'm
gonna implement all these therapies.

Certainly by this birthday,
he's gonna be talking again.

I kept, you know, not fix him in, you
know, I'm gonna say that in quotes,

but like, I'm gonna fix the issue.

Like, I, I'm doing, I'm,
I'm, I'm reading everything.

I'm trying to, and I kept thinking,
oh, we'll, surely buy six.

Surely, honestly, surely buy three.

Then every birthday that came,
it was just Saturn and Saturn.

So I didn't, I didn't really have
the desire or I thought it would be a

bad idea because if family found out
from me advertising that I'm looking

for, you know, someone, a homeschool
assistant that's interested in

being trained in movement method and
stuff, that then they would find out.

And I just wasn't ready to tell.

I just wasn't ready to tell 'em yet.

I was, you know, I, I am still
a very private person, but this,

all this has had to make me.

Be very public.

And that was a, that was
a difficult transition.

But now I realize like
how alone I was then.

And I have these moms that come out, you
know, especially on sensory Saturdays.

I, I spend a lot of time with
the parents there while their

kids are enjoying the event.

And I'm just like, everything that
they're saying, especially like the

newly, you know, diagnosed kids with
their moms and how lonely they feel

and how so upsetting, you know, the
best friend, their kids neurotypical.

But, you know, we can't, we can't do
anything together, you know, whatever.

And I, I, I realize now how lonely
that was and, you know, probably

would've gone, maybe I wouldn't have
felt so sad if, if I had opened up

to a bigger support group, but that
just wasn't, just wasn't on my radar.

This is one of the

Rupert Isaacson: big, this is one
of the big issues and I think anyone

who's working in our field because
you and I are colleagues now knows

this, which is the, the big kicker is
loneliness as you say, and isolation.

Because if you've got the kid who
takes the shit in the supermarket

while you're at, you know, standing
in line it, that you can only do that

so many times with everybody looking
at you before you start not going to

the supermarket if you can avoid it.

And so it's, and you know, at
most therapy places, the, the

parents don't meet each other.

So there, there isn't any possibility
for community or connection.

And the online community is
okay, well, they're better than

nothing, but it's not the same.

So you,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

oh, may I interject there too also
I did go to like a s like a support

thing where like they were met at
Panera and we, and I went one time

Rupert Isaacson: we being
your husband, right?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yes.

We uhhuh and I felt we

Rupert Isaacson:
listeners he's Vietnamese.

American.

Mm-hmm.

So his name we is from there.

So if you're just wondering, you
know, if that's an exotic sounding

name, that's where it comes from.

Okay.

So you, you're at Panera and

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah, we're at Panera.

And then it was just like, as
soon as they found out we were

physicians, ah, I don't know.

I just, you know, then there, there
were medical questions being asked of

me and all this, and, and then I was
no longer there as the parent, right.

I was there as, oh, well what do you,
you know, what do you think about,

they was not supportive at all.

I never went back again, so, you
know, so, I just I just felt even more

violated from a privacy standpoint
because now all these people in

this particular area know that Dr.

McGovern, whose office is
right there her son's alter.

I don't know.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with it.

I just, I just felt so
private about it then.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: as you say that, that
that's, it's, it's all about timing.

One, one is ready for, yeah.

Ready for emotionally when one's
ready for it and not before.

What can you say?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, I hear you.

So, okay, so you take the big
step, you, you stop the a BA,

you implement movement method.

Presumably it's working or you
wouldn't have kept going with it.

Oh

Dr. Megan McGavern:

yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So what
were the first things?

'cause at this stage there's no horses
involved, so listeners don't worry.

Horses are gonna come into the
picture and they're gonna come

into the picture in a big way.

But early on, you know, picture, this is
suburban America, it's, it's a nice suburb

and yes, sure the countryside isn't far
away, but it's, this is not farm country.

And so Megan, you are there and talk us
through a little bit your, the issues

you would have at home and talk us
through a little bit what you did with

Movement Method in those early stages.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Okay.

Well, so one of the first things
that happened after that was that you

sent Julia and Julian to me and they
stayed in my house for three weeks.

Yeah.

And so they basically helped me set up,
you know, they went to local places.

They, they started it and started taking
coal every morning to some nature area.

I, I spent, you know, a good bit of
money, like getting a membership at the

Virginia Living Museum when, where I took
you one time and he used to, you know,

he doesn't go there as much anymore,
but that used to be a very common spot.

And you know, just money on, like, setting
up the homeschooling stuff and what, what,

what I needed to get and all of that.

And that, that was very helpful.

And then I just was trying to hire
people sort of on the down low just

because again, I didn't want it to be.

Publicly advertised.

And I went through a couple people, Cassie
was sort of overseeing you know, what was

going on and involved and, and knowing,
you know, knowing what was going on.

And so, you know, pretty much he'd
have sessions every morning and

that's still what he does to date.

He has, he has sessions every morning
pretty much from like, say eight to 12,

where he's, you know, outside somewhere
or, or you know, whatever, whatever it is.

But his, his session is pretty much
somewhere between eight and nine to to 12.

And then when the horse got added
in, then there was me in the

afternoon, every afternoon after work.

So it was like twice a day kind of thing.

But,

Rupert Isaacson: But what did you notice?

What, what were the improvements
with the movement method?

Like why did you think, yeah, okay, this
is working, I'm gonna stick with this.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, I started number one, being
able to actually realize that he

knows things, like to academically
measure what he knows, because there

was none of that honestly going on
in his special education classroom.

Just 'cause I, again, I think they were,
you know, there's hot what, six, seven

kids with their own in individual IEPs
and, just trying to put out fires all day.

So I, I saw him like being able
to, you know, I learned what

he, what he likes with learning.

For example, he loves puzzles.

I knew that beforehand,
but he loves Velcro.

Like if you laminate answers and
have Velcro dots and then you pick

the answer, like you hold up two
answers and then you let him pick

the answer and put it on the thing.

That's how I started knowing.

Oh, he knows who that, that's Jacque
Csau and not Theodore Roosevelt.

You know, like for every subject.

Also magnets.

He loves magnets.

So, you know, when it's that age,
you know, first grade, they still

have tons of those kinds of things.

We used Oriental Trading Company.

I still use them a lot.

Not necessarily for schooling
anymore, but that is a super cheap

resource that has all those kinds of
things and different ways to learn.

But I, I started basically
individualizing his curriculum.

I do that every year now.

Like it's just become
that routine of my summer.

I order everything that I wanna do in
June, and then I, I go through it and

then I have curriculum planning meetings
until he starts again in September.

So I started seeing him basically.

Tell me that he knew stuff.

Not, not necessarily verbally, the verbal
part didn't come until the horse, but

as far as like him not getting upset
or the meltdowns all the time or all

of that that started to calm down.

And then again, academically, I
started to be able to know that like

he did know what I was asking him.

He just couldn't verbally
say it or did, couldn't do

Rupert Isaacson: feel heard and seen.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Say that again.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think he
started to feel heard and seen?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah, I think so.

I think definitely taking him out
of that environment, the environment

that he was not doing well in.

Yes.

I, I, I think so.

And it was also helpful because, I mean,
the eating thing was still going on, but

it was, you know, starting to get better.

But, you know, it wasn't like he was
going all day without eating anymore.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I remember when I made my first
visit up to you it was not as severe as

it had been in Texas, but it was still

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Pretty extreme.

You know, you have the pool, you have
the pool in the backyard, and he was in

it for hours at a time, maximum energy.

And I remember looking at him and
going, wow, that was the energy he

was taking to a special ed classroom.

You know, just Right.

No way they'd have been able to
handle that, like in the, with the

best will in the world, you know?

Right.

But you know, being able to
teach through that suddenly.

That not being something you're fighting,
that being something you can go with.

The other thing I remember was when
I was there, him disappearing into a

neighbor's house across the street naked
and just sort of wandering through.

And you know that even though this is
south of the Mason Dixon line, Virginia,

you know, it's people are gun happy and
property proud and all of that stuff.

And it's so, it's, you know,
listeners who are not American.

It's, it's, it's dangerous.

It's dangerous to enter
other people's property oh

Dr. Megan McGavern:

yeah.

Even

Rupert Isaacson: sometimes as a kid.

And it's equally, can be equally
dangerous to go and retrieve them.

Yeah.

You know, and I remember you were
still going through that, you know, but

things were clearly better and Right.

He was, you know, exhibiting, I
remember, you know, you were really

following his Thomas the tank engine
obsession and beginning to teach him

literacy through that and so on and

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right, right.

I remember thinking,

Rupert Isaacson: thinking, wow,
you know, she's really on it.

But then you flummoxed me because then
I was like, okay, well this is good.

This is definitely, you know, 75% better
than what we were seeing in Texas.

But then you, you call me up
and say, yeah, but Rupert,

there's got to be horses.

And I'm like, well, why?

Because you know, this oxytocin and
BDNF effect that we're talking about,

you know, for neuroplasticity, you, you
know, you can get this without horses.

And remember, you know, most of the time
with RO and I wasn't on the horse, you

know, I was having to implement what's
now called movement method at home.

You know, so even if Rowan was really
into the horse, you know, I still had

to do all this stuff off the horse
and, you know, you're not a horseman.

So it's kind of irrelevant really,
because, you know, we don't, there's

no, there's no horse boy place in
your neighborhood and okay, you could

try some other therapeutic riding
stuff, but chances are, you know, it

won't necessarily be an environment
where they'll allow him to be him.

But you wouldn't take no for an answer.

Why?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Because I saw, I saw how
he responded on the horse.

That's why I saw how he I hadn't seen
him like that with pretty much anything

else except for Thomas the train.

But that, that's why I just felt like
this was my shot at potentially getting

him to speak and I was gonna do whatever
I needed to do to give him that shot.

Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, I
want you to put yourself in my shoes.

My, me as Rupert right now.

So, Megan, as you, you can
imagine, is a, is a, is a strong

personality and and, and, and, and
somewhat of, of, of an achiever.

And so I begin to get communication
saying, yeah, but look, Rupert,

I've gotta get a horse and I've
gotta, you know, get this together.

And I'm like, no,
Meghan, you don't because

you, you don't know from horses.

And this is decades and decades and
decades of experience needed, and

particularly for this kind of work, you
know, the stakes are so high and you know,

no, it's gonna cost you, it's gonna cost
you ridiculous money and you still won't

know if you are because you have to set
up your own show, you know, and you dunno

how to, and you, you, you'll, you won't
even know, you know, you won't know how

to hire the right staff and you won't
know if they're even doing the right job.

And they'll, they'll walk all over you.

'cause horsey people are like that
and it's just not safe, you know?

So, no, no, I'm sorry.

We're gonna stick with movement method.

And I remember several
of these communications.

What?

And, and I was being pretty
reasonable with that.

I.

And movement method is, you know, we,
we, we've, we've had obviously, you

know, a lot of success with that, with,
with, with people who've never, you

know, touched a horse, seen a horse.

So again, the equine assisted side.

And you know, I have great
faith in your decision now with

everything that's happened.

But what was going on there was some, it
was, it wasn't just what you'd observed.

I think there must be
something in your gut.

What was going on in
your gut that made Oh,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

my gut, my gut was telling me I
needed to do this and 'cause I was

Rupert Isaacson: giving you, because
you knew that, what I was telling

you when I was trying to talk you out
of it, you knew that that was truth.

You knew that that was you trying
to look up your best interest.

Right?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I mean, my perspective
is, well, I, I can handle it.

I, I can, I can do it.

I will get the people, it's all the horse

Rupert Isaacson: people chuckling
as they drive listening to this.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right, right.

I mean, I felt, I felt like I, I could
do, I mean, I don't know, I've, I've,

I've accomplished a lot in my life.

I mean, I'm not gonna speak about
myself here, but I, there was no

reason that I couldn't do this
when I've done other things.

That, that was my bottom line.

And if this is gonna make it so that
my kid can talk or potentially become

independent or potentially go to
college one day, I mean, it, there

was, it was not even a question.

There was, there was no,
there was no question.

I wasn't, I never doubted
my thought about that.

I was following my gut instinct
and I knew my ability to achieve,

and that was the end of it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

It, it's the only on

Dr. Megan McGavern:

my side of you're asking me like,
what, what was I, yeah, yeah.

Why was I still, that was my side
of it, like how I was viewing it,

Rupert Isaacson: because, you know,
I was being absolutely upfront.

I was like, it is gonna cost you more
money than you can possibly imagine

it's going because you know you are
gonna have to learn from scratch.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right?

Rupert Isaacson: And

what happened was, listeners I was
adamant that we weren't gonna do it.

Because I was like, I, I
can't put my name to that.

You know, it, it, it is, it'll
just go horribly wrong, you know?

No, it's this, you've gotta
remember, this is also a thousand

miles away from where I live.

It's not like it's just down the
road and I can, you know, pop in and

make sure everything's going okay.

But what happened was, you talked me
into it, Meghan and I still to this day,

can't believe that I got talked into it.

And then what?

So what I said was, you know, all right,
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna level with you.

This is pretty much what
it'll cost you if you do this.

'cause you're gonna have to buy land.

You're gonna have to, you know,
you're gonna have to look at all that.

Eventually I.

Because you're gonna have
to control the environment.

You can't just, like, okay, you
might start by boarding a horse

somewhere, but you, you'll not be,
you know, you won't find that those

people are tolerant of your kid.

And even if they are, they won't know
how to create a safe environment for him.

Right.

They, they won't not run the tractor
when he's around, or the leafblower or

the chainsaw or the put up the dog or
whatever, or, you know, let alone what

other people are doing with horses.

And him running into the arena, you know,
naked and they're not gonna, they're

not gonna be sympathetic, you know?

Yeah.

And then I thought, well, but if you
do do this, the only way, the only way

it can work is if the horse has been
trained by us and it's, and not just

trained by us, but has been with us for
a long time, and we like, really, so

I thought we actually have to give up
one of our best horses for this a horse

that I know can operate without us.

And as anyone listening knows,
and as you now know, Meghan, those

horses are like gold, you know?

Right.

Don't let them go.

I don't sell horses.

You are the only person
I've ever sold a horse to.

I have donated some horses.

I've, I've loaned some horses to be school
master horses in other places, but, you

know, taken back if I need to or, but
I've never, ever sold a horse before and.

I remember me and Ana going, you know,
can we even, could we do without Hanya?

This is the only horse that was cool
enough, quiet enough to know that, you

know, and well-trained enough in the
collection to give the oxytocin effect

for that brings speech, but okay.

So we did it and against my
better judgment, we did it.

And can you talk us through what
happened from when you first

got Hanya to where you are now?

Because the thing I want you guys
to know, listeners, is that Megan

is in no way my client, Megan,
is in every way, my colleague.

And we, we meet as equals on this.

But as you can imagine, it
was a steep learning curve.

So, so take us through that
steep learning curve, Megan.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Okay, so she arrived April of 2018 and
I've, I boarded her locally and hired

a horse person, hired another like
teacher home assistant type person and

Rupert Isaacson: who we
trained in our methods.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right, right.

Sorry.

And then we started
taking him out every day.

Rupert Isaacson: Not that it did any good.

Sorry.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

What's that?

Rupert Isaacson: Not what
that it did any good.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah, right.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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world.

Join us for the adventure.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

And we, and then we started taking him
out every day and teaching him in the

woods, hanging things up on the trees,
like his schooling and everything.

And I mean, just everything
started to change.

I still actually have all the
notebooks for years probably.

I have probably four
years worth of notebooks.

I would track everything
he said at every session.

And then if it was sessions where
I wasn't there, like the morning

sessions I would have my, the, the
people working for me track it as well.

So, I mean, I literally have the
hardcore data of the words he was saying.

And it went from, you know, 25
words in an hour on the horse

to 50 to 200 to, you know, 400.

It was, it was just, it was a
clear, this was, this was it.

This was making him become verbal.

On top of that, I paid to have a
sand arena built at that, placed

with that we were boarding.

And I really think that that is
why he was able to walk on sand

for the first time, like shortly.

I think that was like
within a, that was the same.

Yeah, that was just a few months
after he was riding Hanya.

He could not, he loved the ocean,
but you could never go to the beach.

You could never, it didn't
matter if he was standing on

a towel, if he was on a chair.

I mean, he would just flip out.

You, you, your whole time would be ruined.

There was no point in going, 'cause
you'd either have to stay in the ocean

the entire time, or you, you would
just have to leave because you couldn't

just sit there and relax on the beach.

And it was one of my husband and
i's, you know, favorite things to do.

That's what we would do on vacations.

And we, we had to stop going again,
very isolating, you know, and very hard.

But I really think the walking on Hanya,
trotting cantering in the arena on the

sand is what, what changed it because
that she started riding her in May.

And by September it was the twins
second birthday, and they still

had never been to the beach.

I'm like, screw it.

We're going to Virginia Beach.

We're like, you know,
45 minutes from there.

They're gonna see the ocean for the
first time, even if it's a shit show.

And he flips out, we're gonna be there for
like 15 minutes and they're gonna see it.

And it was that time we were, we
were ready for just a complete awful

whatever, but at least we had done it.

And all of a sudden he just started
running on the sand, sitting and

letting the sand like go up in
his bathing suit, letting the

water, like it was unbelievable.

I mean, I, I just couldn't believe it.

Hurried up and grabbed my phone and
I'm doing my mom screaming again.

And it was just like, did this really
just, is this happening right now?

And then we were there
for like three hours.

It, it was unreal.

But so verbally, the meltdowns
started, started really going away.

The academics were just
improving and improving.

And then the, the eating so I, I had
doing, I did the feeding clinic from

what, what would've been 25, 2000,
I'm trying 2016 to maybe about 2018.

Mohani came in in.

I stopped it shortly after Mohani came
because he's, he, I mean, it was unreal.

He, his palate markedly changed.

I was able to get so many
different things in him.

I also started working
with Jonathan Tommy right.

Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly for
listeners, Jonathan Tommy's a, a

very, very skilled nutritionist and
also autism dad who we knew well in

Austin, who had gotten some really
great improvements with many children,

including his son who'd been nonverbal.

So if, if, if you are wanting to
know more about his work Jonathan,

Tommy, please do contact us.

All right.

So Megan, keep going.

So,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

okay.

So he started eating so much more,
like the variety of things improved.

He started to, I, I was
able to make these pizzas.

Like it was a frozen pizza that
was gluten free, but then I could

add like these different meats.

I mean, I couldn't get
meat in him for years.

I, I was able to add meat
to it and veggies to it, and

I mean, I couldn't do that.

I mean, he was so
malnourished for a long time.

But just like every, all of
that, all like the whole picture.

Started changing.

I'm not saying that it
was still not difficult.

Obviously a huge amount of effort on,
on my standpoint from, from many levels.

But, and he, you know, there was still all
the things like behaviors and things we

were doing, but I'm just saying like big
time stuff like academics, eating again,

being able to go to the ocean and not
have to stay in the ocean the entire time.

Like those were, those
were big things to us.

And, and talking, talking,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, when
I was joking early and saying

much, you know, much good.

It did.

What I meant was not the
improvements that came with the

horse, which were remarkable.

But as you found out
horsey people are tricky.

Yeah,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

yeah.

And

Rupert Isaacson: finding the
right people is difficult.

Yeah.

You know, and that's very, if you're
coming not from a place of authority

on horses and you're have to hire
people who know more than you do.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right.

Yeah.

That was, that was rough.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

But you weathered it.

Yeah.

And you weathered it.

Amazing.

And something else, listeners, is those
of you who know Horse Boy Method know

that in order to get horses that are
strong enough to ride with a kid in

order to get horses that can collect.

To give that oxytocin effect, you've got
to put enormous amounts of muscle on them.

So you need to know lunging,
you need to know in hand work.

And so I diligently, as did others,

sort of insisted that Meghan, in addition
to her full-time doctoring, mothering

for other two children and all the rest
of it, learned to do these things which

is sort of quite advanced horsemanship.

And and you did, you, you, yes.

You, you went and what was so in
interesting to me about about your,

those early years with Hanya is I saw
you, I mean, okay, she was a school must

horse, but I saw you able to take on
work that I often have trouble getting

really seasoned horse people to do.

And you just went for it and
followed it to the letter.

And so even though I was uneasy
and I, I would then come back

up on other visits and go, damn,
this horse looks really good.

You're really, you're really doing it.

And I'd watch you lunging her and
taking her through the in-hand patterns

and the long reigning and being, you
know, Megan, this is, you know, this is

like someone who's been around horses.

Or that it was, it was almost like
you were downloading something.

And then when I started teaching
you how to ride, like from the, from

the first day, I was like, are you
sure you haven't done this before?

You know, like, yeah,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

no,

Rupert Isaacson: it was, you
were, you, you were a natural.

And I remember thinking, is there
something, is there some other

force moving through Meghan?

Because it shouldn't, I mean, you
remember I was saying, I was kinda like,

it shouldn't be happening like this.

It shouldn't be yet.

It did.

Okay.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: So you persevered and
you persevered then in a, in a live

yard, but it in a boarding stable.

What were the challenges of
doing this in that situation?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, you know, again, personalities.

Like you said, for example, when we
were first getting call on Hanya, like

there, you know, you wouldn't wear ride.

That was a joke to wear riding pants.

But he actually wouldn't
even put the shorts on.

So we're like, you know what?

Just let him wear his underwear.

I mean, he's only, what, what
would he have been in 2018?

27?

He was seven years old.

I mean, how's it any
different than wearing like a.

The European bathing suits,
whatever those are called.

Or like a, or even like a, like when
you're competing in a swim competition,

you would wear those, I mean,
what's Speedos the heck difference?

He's seven.

Yeah.

Speedos.

You know, but of course other
families that were there, you

know, had something to say.

The, the person that I initially
hired unfortunately was one, one

of the one of the people that
you would not wanna work with.

And it became a very, like,
manipulative, malignant situation.

And I let her go.

And then, you know, I, I've, I
found people and I have steadily

continued to find people.

But one of the things like I learned
prior to ever starting this was, you

know, to be a good leader, you need to
know how all of the, all of the jobs

that are underneath you, you need to
have, know how to be the secretary.

You need to know how to be the phlebotomy.

You need to know what they do.

You need to know how to make it go
round in case they're not there.

And, that was, that was something
like I learned early on with this.

Like, you know, people can
leave at any point in time.

And initially I didn't have contracts
for any, any of the employees.

And then I got burned a few times
and I was like, you know, I sent,

I sent one girl out to Bianca to
be, to be trained in Colorado.

And she like had this like amazing time.

And then like a month later
she decided, oh yeah, I mean

I paid for airfare training.

I mean, it was a joke.

I mean, it was just a joke.

I was like, are you, are
you kidding me right now?

And that was when I finally changed
to having contracts because you

know, again, people find boyfriends,
people move for reasons, parents

become ill, you know, whatever,
everybody has life circumstances.

But, you know, I still needed to make this
world go around every single day for Cole.

And part of that was making sure the
horse was trained every day, you know,

staying strong being well care, you
know, I, I had to learn all of that.

Now, I might not know the 5 million
ways, you know, how to make a horse

do X, Y, and Z, but I can absolutely
implement what you showed me.

I can, you know, once I see it,
I've got it and I know this.

And when I bring new horse people
on, I will say, Lee here knows

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But I know that you need to be able
to make the horse look like this.

And then I demonstrate for them
and I show them and, you know, so.

Because again, even where I'm at now,
at this level, I'm still not like a, an

equestrian for 40 years or something.

I, I'm, I'm not, and I fully will own
that to any of the employees, you know.

But again, I say, but I
know what this niche is.

I might not know what those words are.

When you're talking about the, all
the, I don't, I don't know a lot of

like the other horse breed stuff or
I, I don't know that, but I know this

niche and I know this niche well, and
the, at least the basics of what they

need to do to maintain, to be strong
for the child, strong so they don't

get injured and, and you know, that's.

That's that I'm, I'm happy to take
opinions, I'm happy to, whatever,

but at the end of the day, I'm
gonna take all of your opinions

and then make an educated decision.

Because it is hard, you know, the every
horse person, they all have, you know,

the, the horse has some problem and you'll
have six different people, including

the vet, tell you something different.

And it's like, you know, you just
wanna stick a fork in your eye.

Like, how can, how can you all think that
there's six different things going wrong?

And you're adamant that, you know,
you know, I'm just like, alright.

You know, and then you, you can't
get upset if, like, I don't go

with your opinion, you know, I'm,
I'm doing the best that I can.

And it's just, it is, it's a lot, it's
a lot of personalities to deal with

finding the right people that, you know,
aren't gonna like, smack the shit outta

your kid when they, you know, spit in
their face or you know, have a meltdown

or, you know, or that aren't gossiping.

You know, I, yeah, it, it
is that part that, you know,

definitely that, that's a lot.

But I am, I'm also in a, a different
space now than before because I, I

know a lot more and I also know what
I'm willing to tolerate and what

I'm not willing to tolerate before
I had to tolerate whatever the hell

I could get, just to keep it going.

Because again, we've gotta remember that
Cole is autistic and Cole is very much.

Needs a routine.

If he doesn't go to the horse that
day, like there's a, you know, or he

doesn't go out to the barn or whatever
it, there's a melt, you know, there's a

meltdown, there's, or there's a potential
meltdown or, and then especially early

on, if there was ever like a day that was
potentially missed, I felt very panicky

because I'm like, that's a day where,
you know, he could have started talking

even more, or that was a day missed in
just making this early intervention,

you know, like in the younger ages.

So I was always just so, like we, I had,
I would do anything to make it keep going.

I, I would do anything because I saw
what was happening and I'm like, like

I can't, you know, whatever it takes,
basically whatever personalities I have

to deal with, despite sometimes feeling
like I was going to just like, just, oh my

gosh, how can I keep going on like this?

I can't stand all this personality
stuff, but I, I still, you know, you just

gotta regroup and move forward with it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
most people are not easy.

I wish it were otherwise.

Luckily I would say that within the horse
boy community luckily, luckily, luckily

we have phenomenal people like you.

But yeah, the vast majority of
the horse world, it's it's pretty

judgmental and pretty cutthroat.

And so I was very worried, you know,
that you were going to enter that

world with such a vulnerable kid.

And I.

Everything at stake.

Yeah, you did.

And okay, so you then weathered
those early years at the boarding

barn, and then you decided to do
something a little bit radical.

Talk us through that.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, I mean, truly those personalities
are probably what pushed me to be

like, okay, I clearly know that
this is, I need to continue this.

This is working, this is gonna
make my son as independent as

possible and verbal as possible.

But I can't, I can't stay
in this situation here.

Like I would loathe going
out there every day.

I'm like, it's already hard enough
to do and to deal with everything

I have to deal with with him.

I don't need to be able to, I don't need
to go there and feel like stressed out the

whole time and wondering if something's
gonna happen with another person or

they're gonna say something, you know,
I, I don't, I just don't need that.

I mean, it, it, this is hard enough
and sad enough and everything enough.

So I we started looking for
land and you know, we were told,

oh, there's no land near here.

You're gonna have to go to Glosser,
which is like 45 minutes away.

It would just not be doable for
any standpoint from me being

able to, I just wanna, I just

Rupert Isaacson: wanna interject
there again for listeners where the,

the bit of Virginia where Meghan
lives close to Virginia Beach.

So not being able to go to the beach,
particularly in those humid hot

summers must have been hell, but.

It is tricky to find land there because
it's a bunch of small, little peninsulas

that and swamp land that sort of jut
out into the Chesapeake Bay area.

It's not the rolling horse country that
you think of when you think of Virginia.

So land is actually not
that easy to come by.

Okay.

So off you go.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right, right.

So, you know, we just, as soon as
we started looking, everybody was

again, being negative and I, and I
just, I kept looking and then all

of a sudden it, it it happened.

Bianca actually came one when she was out
one time, we looked at a couple problems.

Beba,

Rupert Isaacson: one of our mm-hmm.

Best trainers and therapists.

Yeah.

Okay.

Go.

Yep.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

And that didn't end up being the
place that we had found, but yeah,

we've, we found a place that was
just like a blank canvas to create.

There was nothing on it, and
it was like 17 and a half acres

and lakes on either side of it.

It was like, it's like a big
rectangle and then there's lakes

on either side pretty well hidden.

You can't see anything from
the main road or anything.

And so we found it and then we,
we bought it in August of 19.

And then, then there was the
transition of, you know, starting to

build out there, which didn't happen
until like end of January of 2020.

And they, they, we paid to
have a barn built, a covered

arena and two, two paddocks.

Built.

And that was where we started.

And that was a shit ton of
money, of course, but again,

long-term vision in mind.

And then, you know, we went I'd also
already been, had, had purchased Nron.

You had gone and found Nron
and took him back to Germany.

And so I'd already
started paying for Naron.

And then with what you had going on, I
guess with new trails and some of the

horses were being dispersed in places.

You had talked to me about Diego.

Yeah.

And you had mentioned about like,
maybe, you know what I wanna, anyway,

I decided, I know I still wanted
to keep Nron and I would, I would

take Diego as well because we, we
couldn't have Hanya there by herself.

Right.

And thank God that, that, honestly,
thank God that happened because we

transitioned there April of 20 and.

Naron wasn't, I don't remember
when Naron came, but I think it

was like May of 21 or June of 21.

May of 21.

So, I mean, what would we have even
done if we didn't have, you know, and

I was not of any interest in boarding
any, I was getting away from public.

There will never be a boarding
facility at this place.

Never you know, I, I don't, I
don't want any parts of that.

So that, that was not an option to
me because I didn't wanna have to

deal with any other personalities.

I just wanted to deal with the
stress I had for Cole, basically.

So thank God that that happened because
then we were able to transition there.

And then Mahan and Diego were
our horses there for a while.

And then we started the nonprofit.

So September of 20 we applied for
nonprofit 5 0 1 C3, and we got

approved that was during Covid.

So that was interesting.

And then to get the 5 0 1 C3 status, you
know, you apply for that, but we didn't

actually find out that for a year after.

So technically, you know, as far
as getting grants and support,

I couldn't even really start
doing that until September of 21.

It literally took a whole year,
I guess, because of Covid and

delays in manpower and stuff
that we found out after the fact.

But,

Rupert Isaacson: so then you suddenly
find yourself with two good horses,

one on the way, an environment that
you can control out there in nature.

Facilities put in and you can breathe
to some degree a sigh of relief.

Why do you then create a nonprofit
and open this place up to the public?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, I think that

being a physician, it was very frustrating
for me to go to the doctor again,

no matter what specialist it was.

And they had nothing else to tell me.

You know, like there was no
other suggestions when what

I was doing was not working.

And I just felt like this is unacceptable.

Like, there, there, there are
so many children diagnosed with

autism now, like there, like you
ha you need to know, you need to do

more continual medical education.

There needs to be, you know,
you have to have more answers.

And because I like didn't go to the
the group kind of stuff, you know,

I was basically relying on my doctor
patient relationship to what are the

other answers of what else can I do?

And so there was always, you know, this.

I mean, just being a physician,
wanting, wanting to help people.

And I'm just like, my gosh, I can
like help all these other families

that are in the same situation.

And I mean, what, why wouldn't I?

And well, for all the reasons you

Rupert Isaacson: described for,
for the, for the, for the fact that

you're a private person for the, the
fact that people can be Yeah, people

can be, and you were so exhausted.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

But I just, I remember the
hard I mean, I really was sad.

I I really, it was a really
hard time for a number of years.

I mean, it's like mourning, mourning
a death, you know, of what, what

you thought your child was going
to be and to be able to offer hope.

Like, I mean, as you said,
he is, he is a tough cookie.

You weren't sure if you were ever
able to really gonna make an impact.

Like, you know, he is one of the
more all along the spectrum children.

And to be able to offer that
hope to these other families.

I mean, it, I didn't really
think twice about it.

I, I, I really didn't.

And another thing that always
made me feel sad was holidays.

And I know that's made might be a little
bit something different that we do

at chats, but I really like holidays.

Like I, I mean, as far as like, I,
I, well, I like celebrating holidays.

I like decorating for holidays.

I mean, I, I, I love it.

My attic is full of.

The only thing in it is like everything
for holidays and holidays were so sad.

I mean, Christmas would come, you
know, he is 2, 3, 4, 5, even now.

He doesn't even like to open presents.

Like if you have a bunch of
presents in front of him, he might

do one and then he is overwhelmed.

But back when, you know, when you're like,
oh, trying to make these great memories

and so excited to offer them this great
Christmas, I mean, it was just awful.

He would just put his head down.

He was so overwhelmed.

He might even have a tantrum meltdown.

It was just like, this is so sad.

I mean, and going to see Santa and
standing in a line for 45 minutes in

a mall where everything's loud and,
but you wanna get that Santa picture

Rupert Isaacson: early, autism parents.

It's like,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

you know.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah.

I mean, it was just, it was just
all those normal things I, I didn't

really get to do with him and when
I tried them was just heartbreaking.

And it was very stressful and sad.

And so, one of the things that we do
most months of the year is our sensory

holiday themed sensory Saturdays.

So it's all out in nature.

And we have the horses involved
on most of them, and we have

stations set up throughout the land.

And if they're not interested in
the station, they don't have to.

But the stations are usually
highly sensory things that are

desired by autistic children.

And crafts.

You know, we have higher level autistic
kids or teenagers that, or even

young adults that come out and they,
they like to do some of the crafts.

I mean, some Nicole doesn't like to do
crafts really at all, but some, some do.

And we, we, we really, you know,
obviously for like Santa Claus, Easter

Bunny, we have them out there Halloween.

They get to if they want to dress
up, they, they can dress up.

But it's, it's, you know, it's the
right environment for them to be

able to celebrate a holiday and the
family gets to celebrate the holiday

in the way that the child can.

And for me, that, that is like, that
was one of my saddest, saddest times.

Every time there was a big holiday,
like, you know, him just, it,

it wasn't ever a, a nice memory.

So I really liked that.

I, I love that I offer that.

Unfortunately today we had our
Valentine's Day sensory Saturday, and

they said the weather was gonna be
pouring all day, so we canceled it.

And then what happened?

You know, it didn't, it's not
even started pouring yet, but you

know, I, I, I really enjoy that.

I offer that.

And then, yeah, just being
able to offer the hope of your

child being able to speak.

I mean, what, what, I mean, I
would do, I would've done anything.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So yeah, you, you jumped ahead
a little bit in the story

because you used a, a name.

A few moments ago you said,
out here at chats we do this.

At what point did you name
your nonprofit, your center,

and why did you call it chats?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, actually, Cassie's mother Tracy,
she's real creative and we were trying

to come up with a name for the nonprofit
when we put all the paperwork in.

And chats stands for Kohl's
Horse Autism therapy station.

And, you know, trains are
still super important to him.

We have Thomas stuff like out all over
the land, and I wanted to incorporate

trains in it, you know, and then chats,
because he first started chatting on the

horse and, and then obviously putting
in horse in the name, not autism in the

name, so that people would potentially
understand, you know, what we do there.

So it is actually Tracy came up with that.

We had like, lots of people trying
to brainstorm, but yeah, that was a

great, I, I was like, yep, that's it.

That sounds perfect.

Rupert Isaacson: So now
here we are in 2025.

You've mentioned one of the things
that you do is you offer these

wonderful holiday events and
celebrations which in America there

are many of them, so it's every.

It's at least once a quarter, if not
once every six weeks you're doing.

But talk us through your,
the, the program now at chats.

What do you do?

How do you do it?

How do you organize it?

How does it differ from the local
therapeutic riding things around you?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

We offer play dates throughout the week,
Monday through Friday, and we have a

lot of regulars that come, like, you
know, they come every Friday from 12

to one or, you know, that kind of deal.

But we're pretty steady
Monday through Friday.

And then on Tuesday and Thursdays we
offer after school hours because of

those are the two afternoons where
I'm not there with Cole at the barn.

But, and then Cole has his play dates
with me in the afternoons and then in the

mornings, oh, I, I didn't mention that.

In the barn, we actually build a
classroom, so he has his classroom

there and we, you know, we still
try to do stuff in the classroom

and, and out, and there's a window.

And of course, the horses are all,
you know, in the stalls, you know,

in the mornings getting trained, you
know, getting ready to be trained or

getting the Beamer blanket or whatever.

So, yeah, so we offer
private and group play dates.

We also do summer camps, which that was
like, like I think the two biggest things

that like, I, I get super pumped about.

Our camp and the holiday stuff,
just 'cause that's just what I like.

But I, my fondest memories of
childhood were summer camp,

church, camp, church, summer camp.

But I did tons of cool things
like climbing, rock climbing

Seneca Rocks in West Virginia.

I did that a couple times
or you know, whatever.

But, you know, you have great
memories from going to camp.

And when, again, another
thing that I couldn't do with

coal, there were no camps.

You know, when I would go to
look at summer camps, there

were no camps around here.

So for me to be able to offer, you
know, horse boy camp here, I mean,

I was just, I was all about it.

And we're now going into our fifth
summer I think of, of offering camp.

So it's a week long camp in June,
and then another one in July.

And just this past summer, we
were able to extend our hours.

So we're now nine to 12, which
was a big deal because it used

to just be from, like, it used to
just be like an hour long camp.

But now we offer three hours and we have
a lot of community support for that.

But that's pretty much
what we do in a nutshell.

Sensory Saturday, we also offer trainings.

Right.

You know, to schools, to
families, to, to caregivers.

Any of that stuff will offer trainings
to the community and movement method

and horse boy method Lee does that.

But I think that's, that's pretty
much everything we do there.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

developed in conjunction with Dr.

Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

We work in the saddle
with younger children.

Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

Check it out.

If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

applied in schools, in homes.

If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

at home that will create neuroplasticity.

when they're not with you.

Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

need, as well as Serving my clients.

Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Well, I love the fact that you call
them play dates rather than therapy.

I've never yet met a
kid that wanted therapy.

I don't think there's a kid born
that comes out of the mother's

womb saying, oh, you know, I'd
like to go for some therapy today.

No kid wants that.

Kids want to play.

If, if we can make the play therapeutic
without them noticing, well, great.

But yeah, we shouldn't
burden them with that.

So I I I love that you, you do that.

Talk to us.

Okay.

Talk to us about what
happens at a horse boy camp.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

We have different themes.

Like each day we'll have a theme.

Like I plan it out ahead of
time and we'll, we'll typically,

like, have play, water play we'll
have like a water play area.

We'll have a sensory play area.

We might have a themed.

Like we do insects that day, or
we'll, or Scooby-Doo stuff, but it's

all like fun, fun kind of stuff.

And then we have like the the riding part.

So we, we typically will have I have
six kids per camp, so again, it's not

like I have 30 kids, but I need three
kids, three people per kid basically.

So that's a lot of
volunteers to come up with.

And they all get to go to

Rupert Isaacson: camp too.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

They, right, right.

And, and it's great.

Oh my gosh.

We have, like last year we did youth
Volunteer Corps, which is a national

group, and then they have local chapters.

Our local chapter actually won the
national award for the best youth

volunteer group, core group or whatever.

And they partnered with
us in the June camp.

So, I mean, it was phenomenal.

We had a steady set of three like
teenagers per child the whole week.

There was no changing, you know,
'cause normally, like, you know,

I have volunteers that can come
Monday and Tuesday, but they

can't come Wednesday and Thursday.

And then you change the volunteer and then
the kid, you know, re resets potentially.

So, it was, it was a
great experience for them.

I mean, some of them were
crying at the end of it.

Some of 'em were, you know,
just eyes opened because.

And I think just less judgmental or less
likely to bully or any of that, you know,

it's just a great experience, but we'll
sort of like divide the morning depending

on if there's all six kids or not.

But like the first part, half the kids
are on the horses also depends on many

horses we have that are functioning.

You know, if one of them's lame or
something, but say like the first hour,

you know, three of the kids are on
horses and they're in the back of the

land where we have the outdoor sensory
classroom and the sensory pond and the,

all of this, you know, all that stuff.

And the other three kids are up playing in
the sand in the arena or the water play.

We have tons of different water play
things that we set up that are like

rainbow sprinkler things or the slip
and slides or, you know, any of that.

And then we have themed
activities when we're back there.

So we might have.

I'm just Scooby dos on my mind
right now for some reason.

But I might have Scooby do stuff in
the trees and you know, whatever, and

then they go and find it, or we have
a mailbox on site, you know, and on

the last day they always get a letter
from the horse saying how much that

Hanya loved to be with them this week.

And do you wanna go play
red light, green light?

And then, you know, we'll pull
out the red light, green light

and have them race on the horse.

But, you know, just activities like that.

And then, and then when it's been
about an hour, then they come back

up and then the kids switch and,
you know, we try to prevent any

type of meltdown with the change.

So we sort of maybe might entice
them with something else that

we know that they really like.

So in case they're like, not
too much wanting to get off

the horse so that we prevent.

But I mean, the, the, the kids have an
amazing time and I can't tell you how

many like emails or text messages I've
gotten from the moms in particular.

Like, thank you so much for giving
my child this opportunity to go

to camp and to see him happy.

And, you know, just all the, the
same things that I've, I felt when I

was given the opportunities and saw
my kid, you know, be happy or say

something or, you know, whatever.

So, I know it's a good thing and I
know it's a needed thing for sure.

Here in the area.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us
about what's on your land.

So you've mentioned you know, sensory
players and outdoor classroom.

You've got, you've done over
the years, all sorts of cool

things out in those woods.

Talk us through the track.

You know, so, so you, you have to
imagine listeners that when you arrive

at chats, you're not just sort of going
into an in indoor arena and that's it.

There, there is a cover but I would say
that occupies the least part of your land.

And the least part of what the kids,
what's on offer for the, for the,

for the people Take us on a tour,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

right?

So, yeah, the arena, we don't, I
mean, we're mostly out on the land.

The kids like the arena most because
of the sand, you know, and to

play in the sand for the ones that
like sand most don't in the arena.

So we have swings all over.

The property, all
different kinds of swings.

We have a tree house that we built.

We have an obstacle course that has
like a shake, shake bridge, and then

it leads up into a tree that happened
to fallen over, but it still lives.

And it's like this way.

So the kid, the shake, shake, bridge,
then connects and you climb up the

tree, and then we put a slide that
goes down from the tree and all

these different types of swings.

There's two different zip lines.

Brian who worked for me for over three
years and was instrumental in Kohl's

progress he loved to do this kind of
stuff, so he, he built most of this.

He built like a tree house platform
kind of thing in the back of the

woods near the sensory classroom.

It's so cool.

And there's a huge zip line
that comes off of that.

And then you can also just sit up
there and just lay back and you're

just looking up in the trees.

We have a a beautiful swing that's up on
a, like the only high part on the land.

And it's also just there's trees
around when you look up, it's just,

you just, just seeing beautiful
branches and the, the big lake is right

over there, so it's super peaceful.

We have a circular compass
clock that Brian made.

So they're basically just old
trees that fell down and then

he made posts going in a circle,
and then he put like the numbers.

To make a clock.

And then he put north,
southeast, west signs on there.

And then like, so we can go in that
circle with the horse and you know,

teach them clockwise, counterclockwise,
oh, we're going west on the land.

You know, Mathway Drive is
going back south on the land.

All the trails we have named,
we have trail signs up.

A lot of them are Thomas Island
of Soor, Thomas, the train,

different types of names.

Some of them are nature kind of names.

We have bird houses all over.

We have Leprechaun Way because I'm
Irish and I freaking like leprechauns.

So we have leprechaun
houses which leads me to St.

Patrick's Day.

Better not freaking rain
because that's a big one.

We, that's usually our most attended one.

And I literally let them
do leprechaun hunts.

Like I hide a leprechaun and a pot
of gold in a tree that has like a

little opening and I buy from Amazon.

They're real.

Pretend that they're real.

I buy footprints of leprechauns and
then the kids, we take 'em on a, the

tractor, we pull them and then they go
off running and then they find the pot of

gold and then they get a, like a goodie
bag with all kind of sensory stuff in it.

But that's one of the funnest things.

But I have those leprechaun
houses there all the way.

And those kids freaking love, like
getting off the horse and opening

up the little doors and wondering
if something's gonna come out.

We have a ob, we have like
obstacle courses for the horses

as well, back through the woods.

We have a bridge that a Boy Scout
group built for us a couple years ago.

They camped out and it was like
a project for them and they

camped out over the weekend.

And the bridge is really awesome.

We have sensory walkways that the
Youth Frontier Corps built for us.

We also have these sensory they're made
from like old roofing pallets and we have

a whole trail of those where you can walk
the horse through the trail and they're

on either side so the kid can like,
touch them while they're up on the horse

and, you know, all different textures or
sounds you can bang or things like that.

Told you about the mailbox, they
like to ride up that's also on

a little hill and they can ride
up and get stuff out of there.

That's, that's it's really, it's
really nature, natural, you know,

I don't, over the years, like, you
know, I got a, a new shed kind of

thing to put the tractor in and then
I got another shed to put the a TV in.

And so there's a couple like
grayish colored sheds that are

up near the front, but otherwise
there's like, it's all just natural.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's one of
the things I love most about it.

When you go to your place, you, you, you
see the fields where the horses are out.

And also for listeners I.

Although there's a barn with stables
and stalls the horses live out and just

sort of come in to be fed and to be
made ready for the arrival of the kids.

But otherwise, they're having a
lovely time out in nice pastures.

But what one sees of course is that,
you know, grass then rolling out

to those woods and then you get in
those woods and it's like a magic

kingdom that you've, you've built.

And I, I do wish that one saw more
of that, you know, rather than

like, this is the sensory trail.

It's like no, no, the entire forest
is the sensory sensory trail.

Yeah.

Right.

And you could, you could go in there
a hundred times and not exhaust it.

You, you mentioned somebody called
Brian who built a lot of that stuff and

I was lucky enough to, to meet Brian
and do and train him in some of the

things, but where Brian, Brian was,
you know, rather an exceptional find.

And I think it's worth talking about
him because when people are looking

for help for their kids there are
specific qualities one's looking

for and one doesn't always find
them, but then occasionally you do.

So we talked about Cassie, for
example, who is still with Cole and

who's incredible implements movement
method with him, but is also just,

you know, such an emotional support
and you know, educator as well.

So Brian, just talk to
us a bit about Brian.

Who he, who he wa I know he's, he's
moved to North Carolina now, but who

he was, what his skills were and how
that helped Cole, because I think

there's insights there for parents
and, and people running programs.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

So there's a lot of insight to be had
with this because Brian came to me

right when Covid happened and none of
the kids were going back to school.

And I had two or three, I had
two people working for me.

One of them had been with Cole
for I think about three years.

And the other one had only been
with Cole for about a year.

And, you know, you always think that,
oh, well, you know, this person has

a master's in special education,
or they have all this experience

and all the, you know, all this.

And I tell you, that was one of
the worst fits I ever had like fit

between like an educator and coal
that I had the whole time I did it.

And yet, you know, on paper you
think that's what you should do and

you paid way more for that person.

And I mean, it was
totally not the right fit.

And then as, as it would go, as the
phases happen where, you know, you're

steady and then all of a sudden
somebody leaves, you know, hi, here

I am going into that school year and
these, these people stopped working one

because they had to oversee their kid.

You know, they're just so, I just
have to, okay, I fill in again

and I, I do everything that I
can till I can find somebody.

And then I put the, the job out on Indeed.

And I don't know if Indeed is
in Europe or I think it might be

though, but it's a very good job.

Very good way to find people.

I only found that a couple years ago,
but I struggled up until then to find

good candidates, but I consistently
find good candidates from there.

But Brian applied to Indeed, and
when I first spoke with Brian

on the phone I could tell it
was just a little bit different.

Like when I would talk, there'd be
a longer pause to wait to hear from

what, like, what his answer was.

Or sometimes the words would be drawn
out a little longer or, you know, it just

wasn't like your normal, like, you know,
you and I going back and forth right now.

And part of that could have been
just nerves on the phone and

with him being autistic as well.

I, you know, I don't really know, but
I definitely could tell something was

different when we first interviewed.

And then he came out and I was I
remember cry, you know, all these

tears that I've shed over the years.

I could make an ocean, but he he came out
like, and then I always have them come

out and meet me with Cole out at the barn.

And I.

Cole was not having a good morning, and
Cole had a meltdown right in front of

him, and he's, you know, doing his crying
and coming in and I'm like, oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh.

He's not, he's not gonna come back.

He's not.

This is, oh my gosh, I was so upset.

And Lee was there, Lee happened
to be there, and I just looked

at her and my eyes were rolling.

I'm like, oh my God,
this isn't going good.

He's gonna leave.

And I mean, he was so unfazed by it.

He was like, it was like, it,
like it didn't even affect him.

Like it didn't, like,
he was like, whatever.

I, meanwhile, like all, all of
our neurotypical cells are like,

oh my God, I can't do this.

And I mean, it didn't phase him at all.

And he was like, oh, it's fine.

Next time he'll be fine.

And I was just like, oh, okay.

And then, you know, he
totally still wanted the job.

And then, you know, turns out he is on
the spectrum, very high functioning.

He's a swim coach.

He an equestrian, he like, was like
all the, all the bot he loves to teach.

He like all the, all the
boxes you're looking for.

It was, it was just unbelievable.

And he became like Cole's just
person, I, I mean outside of Cassie.

He, it, Brian was able to like
academically help him so much

and just was never phased by.

His behavior, you know?

And I had just this different
understanding of his mind because, you

know, he's on the spectrum too, you know,
stuff that we wouldn't, we, we couldn't

understand or that I didn't understand
or, you know, it just, he was always it

was all just this kind of calm with him.

And when he and I would teach
together, I mean, it was easy.

It was just so easy.

We'd just go back and forth.

And he got called to learn
how to ride independently.

Hanya he, I mean, I, I
could just go on and on.

He's the one that finally got Cole to
be able to ride his bike independently.

I, I don't know.

I mean, last summer.

Summer, yeah.

I remember being before he left,

Rupert Isaacson: blown away
with you sending me pictures

of Cole jumping, Diego jumping.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know,

Rupert Isaacson: I remember you sending
me those and me just going, shit.

That's right.

Mind blowing academically.

Where did he get Cole and
how did he get him there?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Oh, I mean, he, well, just doing the same,
you know, things that I was telling you.

Cassie very much has been like, you
know, I'll, I'll review everything,

come up with ideas, and then she
very much helps in with them.

But she's the one laminating all these.

Okay.

So, she would make all the
laminated things with the Velcro

and all kinds of other things too.

But Brian would Brian was
able to really get him far.

I don't, I don't even know like
how to say specific examples, but

what I do know is he would send me
videos pretty much on a daily basis

of what he was doing with Cole.

He also got him very independent, got
him to be able to his feed himself, his

peanut butter pretzels, which is like
his mid-morning snack, and then close

up his stuff and put it back in his bag.

And, you know, I, I was just always so
used to feeding him because he wouldn't

eat or, you know, carrying all this
stuff because he wouldn't carry it.

And Brian sort of was like,
you can carry this dude.

You're like 12, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13.

Like, you know, it's good to have a
outside person to look in and, and hey,

well maybe we can pull back on that
now, because, you know, you get so used

to being the caregiver mode that you
don't realize that sometimes you're

making it worse instead of trying to
get it more independent by still doing

something that you had to do before,
but maybe you don't have to now.

So it was good to have like
that outside perspective of that

was some of the stuff for Cole.

But just on so many levels.

Oh, Cole started to, I mean,
this has, this isn't necessarily.

Movement method.

But Cole started to love roller coasters.

He wouldn't for a long time, like you'd
take him to the amusement park and

the thing that pulls down over you.

He wouldn't, it would just be too,
like, that would make him panicky,

anxious that he couldn't get out.

So he didn't do it.

And then maybe like two years ago now
Brian happens to live rollercoaster.

So now like coal rides, anything,
like any, anything that flips,

turns goes upside down, like all
the crazy stuff, he's all about it.

But it was, it was just nice to have
a person who, who enjoyed that stuff

too, and like, loved to go too.

And then I didn't have to vomit after
going off the ride, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah.

It was, it was just really nice
to, and he loved the ocean.

So like literally this past summer,
every Tuesday we took co to the ocean

so he could swim in the ocean and,
and Brian would go out with him.

And, you know, we started taking
coal to the pool during the year,

during the winter months because
our pool closes and then coal goes

nuts without going in the water.

So Brian, Brian took him
to the local Aex and.

Got him independent and like
dressing himself, drying himself

off, knocking on the door before he
went in to, to the changing room.

I mean, I've never had
Cole knock on a door.

You know, I'm just, I lead him on
my, every time I'm with Cole out

in a public setting, I'm like, how
quickly can I get through this?

Because what's he gonna do?

You know?

'cause he, you know, where Brian, you
know, in that setting, Brian has the time.

He's got nothing but the, the
three and a half, four hours.

Hey, we, we got, we got all the time.

You know, I'm feeling like
doing, you know what I mean?

Like, it's not like call I, I have
to hurry up and put clothes on call

because we need to get somewhere.

You know?

We can, Brian can sit there.

No, no.

Put it, put it, put it there.

You know.

Anyway, it just just really helped a lot.

Rupert Isaacson: I think.

I think, I think that in so many, one of
the things which doesn't often occur is if

one's running something around autism or
indeed around any neurodivergent thing is

to look for staff that have the condition.

You know, one might think, oh, well, would
they be resilient enough or would they

be able to, and as you found with, with
Brian, the answer was a resounding yes.

I, I would say that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, every time I would come out,
I would see a new academic milestone.

I'd see a new life skill, you know?

Right.

And as you said, Brian was
sort of un unflappable.

Also, you know, he's a big guy.

Yeah.

But he's also building you all this
stuff, like these tree houses and things.

Right.

So, you know, I think I would, I think
one of the morals of that story is, is

to encourage people to maybe actively
look for people on the spectrum.

Now obviously that can be a minefield.

Yeah.

You know, but certainly have that
as an asset in a team member because

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, ironically,
people are often saying, oh, they,

you know, would they have the empathy?

It seems that the answer would be yes.

You know, from what we saw.

You've also got someone else really good
on your team on the equestrian side.

You've got Lee.

Just talk to us a little bit about
Lee and then I'd like after that for

you to tell us where Cole is at now.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Okay.

Well, Lee has been sort
of my right hand woman.

She has been nothing but supportive.

She's a UVA grad.

She was a career woman
and then decided to I.

She really wanted to stay home
with her kids and, you know, just

do some part, part-time work.

And she reached out to me whenever
I was looking for an equestrian.

And I mean, she's just
been really amazing.

She's gone through all the
certifications with you.

She's allowed us to be able to like,
you know, certify people here at chats.

She helps train any new, you know,
equestrians that come on board and

does the training in the communities.

And I mean, she's just a down to
earth woman who, who really has a

kind heart and loves to ride horses,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

And she's a really, really
skilled horse woman.

And, and I think that, again, this is
something which is often so lacking.

Not always, but it's not always
prioritized with Bitcoin assisted

stuff, which is that, you know, people
who've really had a career in horses,

you know, she's a hunter jumper, she
still works at a hunter jumper barn.

She, it's not that you necessarily have
to be that, but it doesn't hurt, you know,

to have people that really do understand
what it takes to keep horses sound to.

Prepare horses to put muscle on horses,
to top plan horses, to make sure

horses get the trail rides that they
need to make sure horses, if they like

to jump, get those jumping sessions
to make sure that the, the, the,

the horses at the best they can be.

When that

Dr. Megan McGavern:

right

Rupert Isaacson: walks into the, into the
property, so much work goes into that.

Rather than just saying, well, we'll
this horse is sort of quiet, we'll

just pull 'em in from the field.

And there we go.

You know, every time I come out
to you, the horses look so good.

The top lines are lovely and curvy.

They've got big butts, big necks.

They coats are glossy, they're fit, you
know, and they, they show up ready for

action with enthusiasm and generosity.

And I just wanna take my hat off to Lee
and again, I think, I think for people

who are listening, the moral of the
story is do look for people who have a

really solid, solid horse background.

That said, obviously they can be
terribly bossy and opinionated

and not always a good fit.

But Lee seems to be able to, you
know, tread that line between

just being a, you know, sound
human being and have those skills.

So, you know, you, it was so interesting
to me that you sort of went from

having to take any dysfunctional
person you could find who just knew

something about horses, and then you
end up with this kind of dream team.

Yeah, there's a lot for us to learn
in that, in that learning curve.

Tell us, I think this is
what we all want to know now.

Where's Colin at now?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Cole is gonna be 14 in May, and he
continues to progress with his academics.

He can add, subtract, multiply which
was something I tried years to, to see.

I tried so many different ways and then,
you know, it's like try a hundred times,

but it's that a hundred first time that,
that that's how you wanted to learn it.

And, and the a hundred other time,
other ways were not the right way.

But then, you know, it's just a,
definitely a testament to keep

reinventing how you might teach something.

Obviously keeping the environment
right with being outside and movement,

but you know, there it just might be
that a hundred first time that that

makes it so they know how to do it.

But we've been working on division
now for most of this school year and

he's definitely it's definitely, you
know, I can see it clicking in his

head when we do all the problems.

You know, he also likes dry erasers.

So like we, we have like a dry erase
division board, like where he can

do the problem and, you know, it's
all about finding out what they

like to use or what makes them stay
attentive and then individualizing

that particular lesson to it.

It's a lot of extra work, but
I mean, it made the difference.

So, we're still working on reading and
we have some evidence that he can read.

And then there's then other ways
though, when we're teaching it,

it's like it doesn't connect.

And I think that's just because we don't
really understand how it's connecting

in his brain or how he's processing it.

I did have a dyslexia
evaluation for the first time.

I could have never even done that
in years past because he wouldn't

have been verbal to, you know,
verbal enough to do it or anything.

I literally just had that like,
less than two weeks ago, they

came to the house and did it.

And while they couldn't fully score
it because he couldn't answer all

of it I was really proud of him for,
you know, the parts that he, that

he could do and respond back to.

From a food standpoint, the, the
boy is like almost five 10 now.

Size 13 shoe, 215 pounds, I'd say.

He's a beast.

He's, he's solid muscle.

I mean, he is on the horse like five
days a week, most of them twice a day.

I mean, he's pretty solid from a
muscle standpoint, and he loves

to jump on the trampoline always
and swims throughout the year.

So physically, he's
pretty, pretty big boy.

Behaviorally we've had some new things
just because he is going through puberty.

So that's, that's just fun.

We can leave that at that.

And you know, there's still
always challenges with him.

I mean, I, I can't say too,
anything's different about, like,

the fact that I can't take Cole over
to my friend's house for a party.

I don't, I don't know that
that's ever going to change.

You know, he doesn't, if I try
to go into Target real quick

for something, God help me.

Like he, he'll just start.

He doesn't get, he, he does stuff to
make you upset so that you will get

out of there as quickly as possible.

He knows exactly what he's doing, but
you know, he, he'll, he'll start, he'll

start laughing so loud, and then he'll
scream at the end of the laugh, and

then he'll start jumping up and down.

Or he'll, he'll drop down to the
ground and he'll laugh, giggle, giggle.

I mean, everybody, like the whole store
thinks that there's like someone coming

out with a gun and is gonna kill them
or something because Cole's so loud, you

know, and everybody's looking at you.

I mean.

You know, so it's not like the crying
meltdowns anymore, like of years past.

It's the, that sounds
more, I'm gonna embarra

Rupert Isaacson: That sounds more

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah.

I'm gonna embarrass the shit
outta until you get me outta here.

Rupert Isaacson: That's like, I don't Oh,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

totally.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, totally,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

totally.

Rupert Isaacson:
Intelligent and thought out.

Right.

Well, executed well.

Like well played.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Very well played.

Yep.

So he does that a lot.

He's, he's very he's a funny boy.

He, we've really seen his
funny personality come out.

He is a real jokester.

He really is.

He's, he's funny.

And as far as like talking, oh my
gosh, he, he talks so much now.

It's still not like if I demand a
conversation like, Cole, how was your day?

That doesn't happen.

But he will speak in full sentences
about how he feels or something that

he's thinking about or what he saw.

I mean, that was like, that
was a, that was a, a dream I

was chasing for, for years.

And I have every like, belief
that this will just continue.

I mean, every year he's
shown more and more progress.

There's no reason why that
wouldn't continue to happen.

I, I just, you know, I still, I still
have the hopes of many things for him

and I am just gonna keep doing what I'm
doing and, and try to see if there's

anything else, you know, that comes
out that I need to add or whatever.

But I mean, I would say we are
like in a night and day picture

from when you first met him and I.

I, again, it's still

Rupert Isaacson: when you say, I'm
not trying, talk about what he thinks

and he tells you about what he thinks
gi give us some examples of, of that.

What are some things that he said?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

You know, when you're, when you're
driving and say you hit a pothole or, or

something and be like, oh my, or he'll
say, you bumped, or I was putting on.

This was like unbelievable.

I, and this is why I still need to get
one of those cameras that's put on your

head or something that watches everything.

This was like around
Halloween the year before.

And I love like Charlie
Brown's peanut stuff.

So we all dressed up as Peanuts characters
and he was Charlie Brown and I had

these cool Charlie Brown, it was like
the actual face of Charlie Brown socks

that he wore as part of the outfit.

And then afterwards I would
put them on him at bedtime.

'cause you know, it was getting cold out.

And one night we were going to
bed, we were not speaking, we

were just, we were both tired.

He was getting in bed and I normally put
the socks on 'cause they were too tight,

but he acted like he wanted put 'em on.

So I was like, oh, okay here.

And he started to put 'em on
and he couldn't get 'em on

'cause they were so tight.

And then I was like, here,
okay, you want me to help you?

And I started putting 'em
on and he goes, good grief.

Like, like, I mean Charlie Grief.

I was like, you gotta be fucking kidding.

Did you just think, did you, you
know, and then I get my mom screeching

voice again and and now I have, I
record him regularly saying Charlie

Brown kind of stuff or whatever.

But I mean, he'll, he'll say he'll tell
the boys to quiet down you know, his

twin brothers or he, I mean, he'll,
he'll, he'll just point out things.

Oh, he, Ashton was practicing
a speech that he has for this

black History Month project.

And he came over to Ashton
afterwards and he said, good job.

Like what, what?

Isn't that?

I don't know.

He'll say, I love you to me, you know,
at bedtime, he'll tell me sweet dreams.

I mean, it's just shit like,
that would just never happen.

There would just be no talk.

He tells you like that he wants
to go in the woods if he doesn't

wanna keep, you know, lunging.

I mean, these are just small examples,
but there's, there's bigger examples that

are just not coming to my head right now.

But he absolutely, he'll tell
you, he'll answer me now when

I say, do you want yogurt?

You know, before it was just, he would
never answer no matter what or, and, and

he'll say yes or no now, or he'll tell
you what he wants ahead of time or, I

mean, it was just, that was never before.

You always just had to, had
to figure it out, wing it,

WW figure out what was wrong.

But you know, I mean, sometimes I
still have to figure out what is wrong

if he, but, but most of the time he
tells me now, like, I mean like if

he got hurt or if his stomach hurts,
you know, and he can take a shower.

He can do a shower all on his own now.

I mean, I took a shower with him for,
for years, actually all the way up

till probably like six months ago.

I mean, he, he, you know, he's not
paying attention to what I look like.

He isn't, you know, I was just in there
assisting him and now he can he'll

shampoo conditioner, he washes his face.

'cause you know, now he is
of the age of getting acne.

He does his whole body with a soap.

He, you know, he, he
has the whole routine.

He.

He's styling, he's learning how to
style his hair now with the Goop stuff.

Like really, you know, he's, he is
learning a lot of independent life skills.

Yeah.

He's, he feeds himself the yogurt
now, like even all the way up till

like four months ago, I would still
have to feed him yogurt every time.

But he would let Brian, Brian, he
would, he feed himself yogurt with

Brian, but with me, he, it was just
still this like you fat guy game.

Yeah.

And finally, you know, what got
him to count was, or to eat, it

was we started counting, you know,
he likes to count and so he took,

I was like, oh, count how many.

1, 2, 3.

And then, and then now we, we do it
like that and he takes 'em and he starts

counting and then I know he has a yogurt.

I'm like, oh.

And then I keep counting and sometimes
I'll go really fast so I can see him, see,

hear him say the higher numbers, because
you know, he knows all that stuff, but.

After you've asked him so many times,
he doesn't want to tell you anymore.

And then when I have new people that can
get involved, then they think he doesn't

know stuff because he won't answer them.

But it's because he answered it 5,000
times before and it's just, he's done.

Yeah.

And so that's a, that's a frustrating
part still, especially when I have

staff turnover because, you know, if he
doesn't answer it a certain way, then

you, then you think he doesn't know it.

And that's just, that's just
not the case at all, you know.

So I'll like go higher numbers.

I'll, I'll go real fast and I'll go to
like 25 and then, then I get to hear him

say 26, which I otherwise would probably
never get to hear him say, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: So how
is he with his brothers?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

He is, he's very good with his brothers.

You know, he'll, he'll really rough
house with, with me or, or we, like,

he'll come up and especially now that,
you know, teenage puberty kind of stuff,

he'll come over and he'll just like
shove me in the back and, and, or he'll

come over and pinch and, you know, when
he wants to, to make you play with him.

And he, I mean, he really likes to
rough house, you know, like push

back and forth and, you know, pretend
like you're, you know, whatever.

And but with his brothers he doesn't,
he doesn't do that with them at all.

They, I mean, he knows like, they're
just, they're smaller, but they, he

doesn, you know, they do really well
together in the pool so they can really

relate as like brothers in the pool.

And then just on the trampoline.

And I would say those are the two
areas where like, I feel like they

act brotherly, but then like, when I
need a break now, at least the twins

are old enough where I can be like,
you go roughhouse with Cole now.

Like, you give mommy a break.

And then they, they have a blast.

I mean, Cole's laughing and giggling.

They're Cole's running away from 'em.

Then Cole's chasing them then, you
know, they're running after 'em.

I mean, that, you know, I couldn't
do that a couple years ago just

'cause they were still so little.

But now, you know, they're, they're pretty
strong and they're old, you know, I'm not

saying like he won't pinch them sometimes,
but as far as like the real roughhousing,

he does not like hurt them or, you
know, he'll come and just sit on me.

You know what I mean?

Like, he'll, he'll just, he, you
know, but the twins, he doesn't, he

doesn't do that kind of stuff to them.

So he's, you know,
overall very kind to them.

Rupert Isaacson: You've brought
this kind of full circle in that you

started as a doctor, despite being
a doctor, there were no answers.

You had to go out and formulate answers.

And then being a doctor, as you said,
even when you were trying to find a

support group, then being a physician,
you know, sort of blew your cover

in a way and isolated you further.

And yet now you've broken ground, you've.

Managed to get the medical
establishment to begin to accept

things like movement method.

Talk to us about what's going on with
Virginia Medical School and all of

that, because I think this is where
it's going for a lot of our work.

And where it needs to go as we sort
of come from the hippie fringes

where we've been for so long
now, edging into the mainstream.

Talk to us about what's happened there.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, one of my physician friends and
colleagues who's in the pediatric world

had connected me with the director of.

The annual Autism Updates
conference that they have at Eastern

Virginia Medical School each year,
which is in February each year.

And Eastern Virginia Medical
School is the closest like

academic medical center near us.

Then the next closest would
be like VCU in Richmond.

But I reached out to that physician
and said that I would like to be

able to present at your conference.

And he brought it to their planning
committee and they said yes.

And then that's when I brought you over
in February of what would've that been?

We just did this in 24, 23,

Rupert Isaacson: I think

Dr. Megan McGavern:

23 2

Rupert Isaacson: or

Dr. Megan McGavern:

2323, I think February of 23.

And so we presented at the, at the
medical school there for the autism

conference and it went very well.

You know, there was like a line of people
waiting to talk to me when I went out to

the bathroom after the talk and to you.

And and then I was contacted after
asking if I was interested in

creating my own neuroscience based
conference on movement method.

And I was like, hell yes.

And so then I relayed the new to
you, news to you, and then we got our

planning committee together and you
came up with a lot of the people who

have helped you formulate this over
the years and or who implement it.

And I did the more.

Academic medical side, putting together
a meeting side, all the continuing

medical education side of stuff, which
is a ton of online forms and regulations

and things that you have to meet.

And then we pulled it off in September
of 24, and I think it was phenomenal.

It was very well received.

All the feedback from the
medical community that attended.

It was really positive.

And actually after that conference, mark
Lobel, who introduced himself to you,

who's the head of the Virginia Autism
Foundation, he's a big supporter of chats.

There were some teachers in the
audience that had reached out

to him and wanted to implement
Movement method into the classrooms.

And he funded like all the stuff
that they needed for, like, he as in

Virginia Autism Foundation voted to fund
those teachers for their classrooms.

So we already did make a, an impact
somewhat locally in the school system.

Rupert Isaacson: But What school was
that in Virginia that's doing that?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Well, it was just some individual
teachers that attended the conference.

It wasn't like a whole school.

Right.

One of which,

Rupert Isaacson: which schools
are they at out of interest?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I, I think it's Newport News.

Julie?

I think Julie is in Newport News.

I have to, I have to ask, do

Rupert Isaacson: you know, are these
elementary schools or high school

Dr. Megan McGavern:

elementaries?

Elementary, special ed.

Rupert Isaacson: Elementary, special
Ed, Newport, news Elementary.

Mm-hmm.

Special ed.

Are they all from the same school
or are they, were they from

Dr. Megan McGavern:

No, there were, there were two.

There were three, I think
one was in Virginia Beach.

Mm-hmm.

Uhhuh.

And she actually came and did a training
in movement method at the barn with Lee.

Mm-hmm.

And the other lady, I don't, I don't, I
can't remember off the top of my head.

Mm-hmm.

But also through that there's a
place called Maverick Learning,

which is an autism school that
was created in Chesapeake, which

is about 45 minutes from here.

It's still part of Hampton Roads.

And we we're, we are doing a training in
their school, so this is the first time

we're going into a school and training.

Lee's doing it in March.

It's like a one day thing on the teacher.

Like they're, they're like
I can't come up with a word.

But anyway, we're doing a training
there, but the conference you know,

it was very well received and we
plan to, to do one again in 2026.

I still Kelly's still getting a date.

Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

So listeners listen out for that, because
this was groundbreaking what happened

in 24, the first neuroscience conference
for movement method for the work we are

all doing in a, in a medical school.

The more of these we do.

The more kids and families
like us are gonna get helped.

So we will be announcing that well
in advance so that those of you

that want to come over for it in
Virginia Beach it's gonna be in

Norfolk, Virginia can can attend.

And if you can't attend in person,
obviously you can attend online.

But it's, it's really a, oh, I
see Cole in the background there.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

He's, Hey Cole.

Hey Cole.

You say hi.

Rupert Isaacson: Hey, Cole.

Don't, it's

Dr. Megan McGavern:

hooray.

Rupert Isaacson: Great to see you.

Teenagers do not make me say hi.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: So big.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

He is, he's huge.

I keep lifting weights so that I can
mess him up if he tries to mess me up.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Attack is the best form of defense.

Yeah.

So Megan, you've, you've,
you've achieved so much.

Where, so where do you wanna take it?

What's next?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

I, I really I wanna keep, I wanna keep
expanding it in a medical platform.

I really want to get it in other
meetings across the country.

I want it to become, I.

Standard of care.

So when you go to see your family
practice doctor, your pediatrician,

the developmentalist, the neurologist,
that not only do they say speech

therapy, occupational therapy, A, B,
A, but they also say movement method.

It just needs to be part of daily
practice recommendations and that,

that is one of my biggest goals.

Secondary would be, you know, getting as
many children that I can out to chats and

getting it fully sponsored, the lighting
as a struggle and you know, continuing.

And then thirdly, to continue my
son's journey to potentially, I

don't know, healing with some quirks.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Well the quirks are the magic.

He's

Dr. Megan McGavern:

following me.

He's telling me enough is enough.

Okay.

Hold on.

Rupert Isaacson: One last
question before we let you go.

And Cole is quite right because
we've been at this for a while.

How can people find you how
can people find chats online?

How can people find out information about
trainings that you're doing at chats?

Dr. Megan McGavern:

The website.

Take a bath.

Hold on.

Rupert Isaacson: Take a.

He does, he

Dr. Megan McGavern:

wants to take a bath.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

me too.

Yeah.

The website is
www.chatssevenfiveseven.com.

The Facebook is the at sign and then
Kohls horse therapy, all one word.

We're also on Instagram, but I don't
remember I don't remember the Yeah.

Info for that, but you could
find it on the website for sure.

But that's pretty much
where our main stuff is.

Rupert Isaacson: Chat
seven five seven.com,

7 5 7 being the area code and on
Facebook at Coles Horse Therapy.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Right?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Dr. Megan McGavern:

the fa the Facebook page
is, is pretty active.

Like, I mean, I, I try to post on that,
you know, most days of the week with

what's going on or something that's
happened or, you know, whatever.

Rupert Isaacson: So, listen, listeners,
if, if you're a, if you're a parent,

if you're a practitioner, if you are
a horse person if you're a teacher

anywhere on the east coast of the USA,
you want to be looking to this work

that's going on at chats and now at
Eastern Virginia Medical School as well.

Hit Megan up.

She will get back to you.

She's a powerhouse, as you can see.

And she'll help you.

Megan, it's been an absolute delight.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Thank you.

And I guess I would sort of like
to end it with I guess two things.

Thank you so much for
helping me change his life.

I, I really am forever indebted for that.

And then secondly, I'd
like to remember Hanya.

Yeah, you just passed away, you know,
so she died last, not less like about

eight days ago, so rest in peace.

But she served a really, she served a lot
of children and changed so many lives.

Rupert Isaacson: She did.

And she, herself was a rescue horse.

She had come out of a not so
great situation in Mexico, and

as you say turned into the most

giving generous horse, but a lot was
given back to she, she gave so much love.

So people gave love back to her.

And I would say that was a horse
that really had a life well

lived and a death, well died.

I mean, a, a a self-actualized
equine life, you know?

And you're certainly exemplary
in your care for her.

So I'm grateful to you for that.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Well, till the next time, so we will, we,
it's, it's gonna be the next thing pushing

forward for this next conference in 2006.

I guess we get our britches on.

We'll be talking then.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

Till next time.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Okay, take care.

Thank you,

Rupert Isaacson: you too.

Bye-bye.

Dr. Megan McGavern:

Bye.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're a horse
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If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
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Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

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Take it from there.