Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really helps us get this work done.

As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

com.

So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

I've got a treat for you.

I've got Warwick Schiller.

His Warwick ness is here and the
reason I asked him to come on this

podcast is because obviously Warwick
does many things and does many things

well, but what I think a lot of people
really find practically useful, well

actually this, people find many things
practically useful about what he does,

but what keeps coming up for me is this
word attunement, and how attunement,

being able to attune to your horse,
to your client, to the environment,

to what's going on in the sensory
system, to perhaps things that are

less rational than those things.

It seems that the people that
do this and really do this

consciously achieve great success.

And I've just seen this time
and time again, within the horse

boy work within the dressage
work that I do within all of it.

Anyone who's doing Warwick's
Attunement stuff seems to be able to

pretty much a level of
success that I'd say is a.

Above the norm.

So I wanted I think why we need to talk
about this on Equine Assisted World

because it's just something that People
need to be more aware of about how to

do but they don't want me banging on
about it They want the man himself.

So here he is Warwick.

Welcome

Warwick Schiller: Thanks
for having me, Rupert.

I'm glad you quantified your, your
statement before when you said, yeah, that

the one thing that Warwick does that's
kind of useful is this achievement stuff.

No,

Rupert Isaacson: that's not fair.

You know, he also, you know,
lives next to a brewery and

will take you there sometimes.

I mean, it's Yeah, I will.

Warwick Schiller: And I live across the
road from a winery too, so yeah, I do have

other, I do have other good qualities.

Rupert Isaacson: But this attunement
thing is something which I think

is a word that people, when
they hear it, they go, Oh yeah!

But then when one actually thinks about
it, well what does it actually mean?

And what does it mean in terms of,

we'll start with horses, but
then I want to move to people.

And then I want to bring it
back to horses and people.

All right, Attunement Warwick, what is it?

Why do we need to be aware of it?

Warwick Schiller: Well, let's, maybe
let's talk about, you know, it's

interesting you mentioned, you know,
you want to start with the horses, but

it's also for people and, you know,
for me, a lot of the stuff that I have

found that I've changed over the years
with horses has been human psychology

stuff that I've used with the horses,
cause you know, the horses are mammals

the same as we are, we have a mammalian
nervous system, all that sort of thing.

But for me, I first heard the
word attunement in a book by, I

think he's a UCLA professor of
psychology named Daniel Siegel.

His definition of attunement was the
sense of being seen and being heard.

And then later on, I had a guest
on the podcast Sarah Schlotter.

You've met Sarah, you met
her at the first summit.

And she kind of expanded upon it
and she said that attunement is the

sense of Being seen, being heard,
feeling felt and getting gotten.

And so it's, it's really like in the
human sense, I really believe it's, it's,

it's getting someone on a level
that most people don't get them on.

Like they fully, you know, when
someone tunes with you, they,

they get you on a deep level.

Like, it's almost like you've, I
had a conversation with someone.

And our last summit actually when
the presenters one night and I said

to her afterwards, you know what?

I don't think I've ever felt that scene
before like she got me On a level that you

know I don't think i'd ever met anybody
who got me on that on that level like

basically understood where I came from You
know one of the i've suffered migraines

all my life and we were talking about
different things and I said to her We're

talking about traumas and then I said, you
know, I've suffered migraines all my life.

And she looked at me, she nodded
and she says, of course you have.

Like she knew where that came from.

You know what I mean?

And so, yeah.

And it just gave me this real sense of
maybe like emotional safety around her.

Anyway, that's the, that's the
human side of the achievement thing.

But let's talk about.

The horse side of the attunement
thing, and you know, this attunement

is really about connection with
horses, but for me, it's not about

the connection for connection's sake.

It's not that I want to
connect with the horses.

I think a lot of people really get excited
about the connection stuff because it

gives them the warm and fuzzies and
my horse will love me or whatever, but

really the connection of the attunement
stuff is about the horse feeling safe.

Safe with us, safe in the environment,
and I think the reason this stuff works

so well with horses is because you don't
have to be a terribly good horse trainer

to, or rider, to train or ride a horse
that feels safe in your presence, with

your decisions, and in the environment.

Most, most people that have
problems with horses are dealing

with a dysregulated nervous system.

Problem that turns into rearing,
backing, bolting, pulling

back, running over, whatever.

All those things for me, they're
a fallout of not feeling safe.

And I might go into explain why I feel
attunement makes horses feel safe.

And, you know, this is all conjecture.

This is my take on the whole thing,
but I feel what the, the, the, you

know, if you go into a pasture with
a group of horses and you catch

one, you take him away from there.

Sometimes people will take their horse
out of a pasture and now he starts running

around in circles, screaming his head
off, wanting to go back to his friends.

And I feel, you know,
most people when that.

They mentioned that I'll say, well, why
does he want to go back to his friends?

And they go, well, he
likes hanging with me.

He feels safe there.

And I'm like, yes, but what,
what is the sense of safety he

gets from being with his friends?

And I don't feel the sense of safety
gets from being his friends with

his friends is a physical safety.

It's not like two of his friends go to
kickboxing classes on Wednesday nights.

And so if the saber to tiger shows
up, they're going to drop, kick

him in the head sort of thing.

What I feel.

It that horse, the sense of safety
horses get from other horses

is there's a shared awareness.

So I don't have to stand and look 360
degrees for, you know, I don't have to

be alert and look 360 degrees for danger.

I could have my head down grazing.

And if you think about.

Let's say there's five horses, let's
go with four horses in, you know,

like out in a pasture and let's call
them North, South, East and West.

And they're grazing and if the horse
on the North side notices something

while he's grazing, his posture will
change and his energy will change.

So his head will pop up and his body
will get a little more tense than it was.

And the other horses will feel that
energetic change and see that postural

change and they'll be alerted to
the fact there may be some danger.

And so their heads will pop up and
they're like, what are you looking at?

And then he, you know, he.

Summarizes the situation or
he analyzes the situation.

You kind of guess I'm okay and
he goes back to relax and they

go Okay, we're all good again.

So I feel like this is conversation
that goes on both posturally and

energetically in a herd of horses and

You know, it's, it's the ability
for every other horse in the herd

to recognize danger and communicate
that that makes the others feel safe.

And this is where it comes down to
like, you know, what I've learned from

you about hunter gatherers I've had.

Several different people who really
get horses explain that they're

just like hunter gatherers, you
know, everybody has a job to do.

Everybody has a role to play and
the one that plays that role is the

best one in the herd for that role.

And this is where we get into
thinking that there is you

know, there's a hierarchy.

There's a number one, a number two,
a number three, which is not, that's,

you know, that's really been debunked,
but You know, one of the things that

one of those people I'm talking about
has explained to me is that horses

are always Testing other horses with
positions in the herd and they're always

testing them to make sure that they
are still the best Horse for that job.

So it's a it's a it's a care for versus
a power over dynamic That horse is in

that that leadership role, whatever
it might be might be sentinel might be

whatever They're in that role because
they have the attributes needed for that

role and the other the other members
of the herd keep Testing them to see if

they're still the best horse for that
role And but like I said, they're in

that role out of a care for you know They
they are in that role for the good of

everybody not for the good of themselves.

It's not a power over role and You know,
so being aware, just being aware of

things, I think is, is the, the thing
that other horses are looking for.

So when you attune with a horse, when
you work on this attunement stuff, which

you have to be very present to do, and
you have to be in the moment all the

time and communicating your awareness
of being in the moment all the time.

I think that's what makes them
feel safe when you, you know,

when, and I've had experiences over
the years at clinics that like.

This is the Holy Grail right here.

And I guess I'll probably tell you
the first one because this is where I

really started to understand it, but
I'd really started thinking about things

a bit differently and maybe working
on something that was back then, what,

the beginnings of what was attunement,
but I had no idea what I was doing, but

I was, I was at a clinic in Texas and
this lady had a Mustang at this clinic

who he has a random bolting issue.

He's at nine years old.

He's been out of the wild for six years.

He's been ridden for six years, but
he has this random bolting issue.

And it's usually not the same thing
twice that causes it and something

that bothers him One time that makes
him bolt doesn't make him bolt the

next time and you know the lady and
the trainer really at the wit's end.

And this was a three day clinic and I
don't know why, cause I usually do two day

clinics, but this is a three day clinic.

And the first day of the clinic,
I don't even remember this horse.

And at the time I would have a
morning group and afternoon group.

So I have 12 people in my clinics and I
used to have a morning group and afternoon

group, and she was in the morning group.

I don't remember this horse
the first day of the clinic.

The second day of the clinic, and
she did some groundwork the first

day, but nothing amazing happened.

The second day of the clinic, she was
doing some groundwork with a horse

and she went to walk down beside him.

So from in front of him, down the side of
him, and she's going to ask him to just

yield his hind end over, just step across
his hind legs, just step over behind.

And when she went to do that, she
went to walk down beside him, he

turned his head and blocked her.

And she said to me, Hey,
and he did it repeatedly.

And she said to me.

Hey, this horse keeps
blocking me with his head.

What should I do?

And I said, Oh, well, let me try.

So I stood in front of him and
I went to walk down beside him.

And as I stepped to go around his head,
he turned his head and he blocked me.

So it was almost like he was
trying to keep me in his right eye.

Like I was in front of
him, I'm in both eyes.

And as I went to walk down that side,
it was almost like he was trying

to keep me out of his left eye.

And in the past, I would have just
reached my hand under his jaw.

Moved his head over and then proceeded
down that side, but there was

something I don't know There was some
sort of intuition said don't do that

Actually step back and acknowledge
the fact that he turned his head.

So he said no in a very subtle way.

I could have walked around
his head very easily.

He wouldn't have lunged at me or
shoulder charged me or anything.

He would have just let me walk around him.

But I didn't.

I stepped backwards, back
to where I'd came from.

And his head straightened up.

And then I waited for him to show some
sign of relaxing a little bit more.

I don't know.

It's not something as
big as a lick and a chew.

Maybe his ears started to move a bit.

Maybe his eyes started to blink.

Cause as you'd know, you know,
when the horses get tense, the

rate of blinking slows down.

So maybe he started to blink a bit more.

I'm not sure.

Then I tried it again.

I went to step over there and
he blocked me with his head.

So I stepped back again and this
went on for five or 10 minutes.

I had no idea what I was doing.

But after five or 10 minutes, I can,
I know he now doesn't block me up.

So I go to walk down his side.

He doesn't block me up and
he's been ridden for six years.

So I figured you can settle him,
which means you can touch him.

And so I just thought, I'm just
going to put my hand on his withering

and gauge his reaction to that.

And I was closely watching his
head and his ears and his eyes.

And as I went to put
my hand on his wither.

His head raised up, just half an inch.

He just tensed very slightly.

And so, oops, I took my hand away.

I said, sorry.

And I waited till he relaxed again,
I tried it again, and I probably

did that for five or ten minutes.

I have no idea why I was
doing it, but I did it.

And then pretty soon I can put my
hand on his wither and he doesn't, he

doesn't get the slightest bit tense.

And so then I said to her, now I'm going
to ask him to step over behind, ask him

to step over behind, he's been trained
perfectly well to do it, and he just

yielded his hind end over, and I said to
her, you know what, you've been riding

for six years, and that's a very basic
exercise, I think he's probably sick of

you drilling him on it, I think that's
why he, why he was blocking your way out.

And I'll prove it to you.

So I'm going to go back to the
front of him, and then if he lets

me come down his side, I'm going
to ask him to step over behind.

Then I'm going to go back to the front,
and if he lets me come down his side,

I'm going to ask him to step over behind.

I'm going to keep doing it, and
after three or four of those, he's

going to go, Nah, I'm sick of you
and your stepping over behind.

So I went back to the front,
walked down the side, he let me,

I asked him to step over behind.

I did it 10 times in a row, and he
didn't block me out, he let me do it.

So now my hypothesis is
blown out of the water.

I'm like, I have no idea why he
was blocking us out because he's

not now and I can't break it.

So yeah, no idea.

So I handed him back to her and I said,
just, she said, what do you want me to do?

And I said, I'll just hang out with him.

So she kind of stood there with him
and I went and helped somebody else.

And about 10 minutes later.

There was this collective this gasp
from everybody there, and I turned

and looked, and this horse has buckled
at the knees, dropped to his belly

on the ground, and started, like,
snoring little dust clouds in the dirt.

And then he lay on his side, had a
big ol roll, rolled over both ways,

stood up, had a big ol shake, and
then Down he went again, and fell

asleep, sound asleep, and he slept
till lunchtime, and that was probably

ten o'clock in the morning by then.

So he slept for two hours, with
loudspeakers going off, and whatever.

Other horses riding around, and I said,
does he normally lay down that much?

And she said, I've seen him
lay down once in six years.

And I was like, wow, anyway, so then
we had, she had to wake him up when

that group was done at lunchtime
for the other group to come in.

So the next morning she brings him
back in the last day of the clinic.

And she said, what do you
want me to do with him?

And I said, stand there with him.

Let's just see what happens.

She stood there with him about 20
minutes later, boom, down he went,

laid flat on his side for four hours.

Didn't get up for four hours.

Slept the whole time.

We actually had to wake him up to
get him out of the arena again.

And she went home from that clinic
and she said he slept for a week.

And so I knew, I knew
something had happened.

I didn't know why it had happened.

But I knew something, I could, this
horse has laid down once in six years

and now he's laying in an arena at a
clinic with a crowd and loudspeakers.

So I came home and I, I started looking
up the internet, sleeping habits of

horses, because I knew horses can sleep
standing up or laying down, but what I

didn't realize at the time is they need
to lay down to get REM sleep, okay?

Standing up is just a light dozing, but
laying down, they have to, they have

to lay down to get this deep, the deep
restorative sleep that we all need.

And we know in humans, if they
don't get enough REM sleep, they're

either irritable or anxious.

Thanks.

What would, what might cause
random bolting in a horse

is just unresolved anxiety.

Anyway, it turned out he never
bolted once after that clinic.

And, you know, first
it was six months out.

She said he didn't bolt.

Then a year out, she
said he hadn't bolted.

Then two years out and he just
passed away four or five months

ago, maybe middle of last year.

And it had been five years, I think,
since that clinic that he hadn't bolted.

So I knew something had happened then.

And.

After reading the sleep thing, I realized,
okay, in order for a horse to lay down

and sleep prone, they have to feel safe.

There has to be another horse
standing guard and aware.

And so if you think about what happened
when he turned his head, when I said, I

notice you turn your head and I notice
you're slightly concerned and I'm going

to step back and give you some time.

That's that attunement thing.

You know, I basically said, yeah,
I get what you're telling me.

And that made him feel safe enough
to lay down and have a sleep.

And I had a, you know, you've
spent lots of time in Africa.

I had an experience a few years
before that in Kenya that I I'd

witnessed that was still in the
back of my mind that really.

Added to that too.

And I, I stand at this place in Kenya
that was surrounded by 3000 acres of, of

undeveloped land, and there
was herds of zebras there.

So I'd be working with horses
in the arena, and you could

see this herd of zebras.

And in the morning, I'd get up and
out of the house and go for a walk

and look at the zebras and stuff.

And I noticed that, you know, as you're
walking towards, and they're, all

their heads are down there grazing.

And when one notices you, his head pops up
and then they all, they all stop grazing.

Their heads pop up.

And if you just stand
there for a while, they'll.

Go back down to grazing, but
what I also noticed too was that

Certain times of the day, some of those
zebra would lay down and sleep, and the

other ones would kind of stand in a big
rough circle around them, and no one

grazed while the zebras were sleeping.

They were standing, they weren't, they
were aware, but they weren't alert.

They didn't have alert postures, they
had relaxed postures, but we Aware, and

I realized that those ones in the middle
who are sleeping totally comfortable

with the security of the awareness
of the ones who were standing around.

And so I'd, I'd kind of witnessed this
without even realizing what I was seeing.

And then later on, when that horse
had that sleep at the clinic,

I realized that's what I did.

I told him that I'm a
two legged, who's aware.

I noticed little things
and I don't have an agenda.

Like when he turned his head, I didn't
say, I noticed you turn your head, but

I want to walk down the side of you.

So I'm either going to push your head
out of the way or walk around it.

I stepped back and said, Hey,
I, not only do I see that, but

I get that you're saying no.

I don't understand why you're saying
no, but I know that you're saying no.

And so I'm going to wait here
till you feel better about.

Me approaching you again.

So that was the start of the whole,
that was the start of the whole thing

but I really feel that for me the
attunement stuff is about making them

feel safe and the making them feel
safe around us basically takes away

all the problem behaviors a lot of
people, you know, deal with with horses.

Rupert Isaacson: No, I would agree and
it's funny as you're, as you're telling me

the story, I'm looking at my screensaver,
which is a photograph I took in Namibia

a year and a half ago, and it's of two
young lions playing, roughhousing, and

in the middle ground behind them, there's
some sentinel zebra watching them.

Behind those sentinel zebra are some
other zebras who are grazing quite

contentedly, even though these lions
are Full of action and their mums, by

the way, that, that, that they're big
enough to participate in the hunt.

They're not cub cubs, but they're
maybe, you know, three quarters

grown and their mums are also there
and would rush in to make a kill if

there was something opportunistic.

And then behind the zebras are a bunch of
springbok who are completely unconcerned

because the zebra are looking out for it.

And my horses I mean, I'm lucky
I can keep them all in a herd.

So, and they're very established,
long established herd.

So that they spend the night in a large
area where they can come in under shelter

get out of the rain get out of The wind
it's winter in Germany right now, but

then in the mid in the day, they'll
just take themselves out into the field

and The first thing that will happen
Is they'll take shifts to lie down and

sleep because they probably won't have
slept like that in the nighttime because

Maybe they're alert for predators.

Maybe there's you know, and there's
all sorts of stuff around them There's

wild boar that come around and this
and that but they will always take

that opportunity and it's funny and
I've Instinctively learned I don't

mess with them when they're doing that.

So sometimes if I need to work that
horse Well, I'm not working that

horse if he's lying down and sleeping
And it's a really interesting thing.

It's it's really instinctive No
more than I would wake a friend.

Unless there was some really,
really pressing reason.

But just because I want to put a
saddle on his back, well I can wait.

However, there's a couple of
questions that come up with

that story that you told.

I think the one really natural
question is, it's not It's related

to the attunement, but it's,

it's, why do you think
the horse was blocking it?

Why was there a no in
that particular moment?

What's your surmise?

Why do you think it was important
to him to say no to that thing?

Because it's, it was an
interesting and rather perplexing

thing for him to say no to.

You know, there's other more obvious
things a horse might say no to.

That one seems interesting to me.

What, what do you think
was going on there?

Warwick Schiller: Well, it was a
very subtle no because it would

have taken two steps just to walk
around it You know, he's just

turned it wasn't even 45 degrees.

Rupert Isaacson: You think it was just
an desire to Field test some form of self

expression and just see if he could I

Warwick Schiller: well I

Rupert Isaacson: do think more fuzzing.

Warwick Schiller: I don't know
That's not I don't think that's

anthropomorphizing at all.

So let me tell you a story.

I've got a horse named Bundy I
think you met Bundy when you were

here Bundy's quite orally fixated.

You know, he's a, he's a cribber cause
he broke a, broke a bone in his foot

when he was young and had to spend
three months in a stall in a cast.

He couldn't even be hand walked.

And so he's very busy minded.

So he, he learned to crib when he was
there and he lives, you know, he's lived

in a pasture with other horses for about
10 years and still, still crib, still wind

sucks, you know, but for about six years.

Every time I went to put the halter
on him, he would grab the nose band

of his mouth and chew on, and I
would get, let me have that thing.

And I just gently pulled it out
of his mouth and then put it on.

But then when I started thinking
about things differently

and, and horses testing us,

I thought I'm going to try and experiment.

So I went to catch him one day, I went to
put the halter on and he got the nose band

in his mouth and I just let him chew it.

I just

Warwick Schiller: stood there
and I just let him chew it.

Then he chewed it for a couple of minutes
and then spat it out and when I put the

holter on he didn't try to chew it again.

Okay, so the next day, same
thing, I let him chew it.

The next day, same
thing, I let him chew it.

Anyway, he did that for four days in a
row and I waited for as long as he felt

the need to chew on that nose bend.

The fifth day I went to put it on.

He didn't do it the sixth day.

The seventh day didn't do
it for another two years.

And I, I really feel
observing things like that.

It's like, I think these horses are always
testing us not to be testy, but like,

who are you, are you the obedient guy?

Are you the patient guy?

I, I don't care who you are.

I would just like to know who
you are because then I can base

my interactions on, on, on that.

And so, but I feel like that's
what that horse was doing when he

turned his head, like, I'm going
to just do the little test thing.

And if you just walk around me
and you know, I think it's, are

you paying attention or not?

Are you how aware are you?

I really feel like a lot of things
horses do asking questions of.

How aware are you?

Because they're looking for, you
know, they're looking for, you know,

I think the nervous system's looking
for homeostasis and they want to

know, are you aware enough for me
to completely relax around you?

You were talking about your screensaver

Rupert Isaacson: there.

Warwick Schiller: A really
interesting happened, thing happened

at that same place in Kenya.

There was this male wildebeest who
lived kind of outside the arena there.

And I looked up wildebeest
after I got back there and

and when I got back from there,
Cause I want to know more about him.

And I realized that the
male wildebeest territorial.

And so if they can, you know, they'll
occupy a certain piece of land.

And if that land's got good water
and food, the cows will come

to him and they will, you know,
they'll fight over boundaries.

Anyway, so this guy, he's solitary.

And every time I see him laying down,
he was laying up, laying down up

against like some camel thorn bushes
or something, something protective.

So he only had to look in one direction.

I noticed that every day, but then one
day the zebra were all up closer to the

house there and he ended up in their
big circle while some were sleeping.

And it's the only time I saw him
lay down where his back wasn't

up against something protective.

There was no camel thorn bush or
whatever it was he was laying up against.

And I'm like, Oh, he's using the,
he doesn't need to, to lay up

against something to have a little
nap because the zebra are going to.

Be the sentinels.

And you just said those springboks
in the background were grazing away

because there's, it's something

Rupert Isaacson: I've often wondered
with the way we keep horses these

days, you know, when I was growing up
we almost always mixed cows and sheep

with horses and we did it largely
actually for pasturage reasons.

It makes your pastures
better, blah, blah, blah.

And it's also good.

The horse is just no other animals,
but I've noticed that that has

gradually disappeared as the norm.

You see it.

Sometimes, now, but you used to see,
it used to be just the norm, and I do

wonder if when horses are doing that
kind of thing with us, there is a

sort of automatic cross species thing.

That is built into pretty much all
those big herbivores that they're

supposed to hang out together They're
supposed to Go a bit cross species.

So for example in you know, I've got
Lusitano horses and in their wild

state They would have been in big herds
with lots of wild cattle in those big

marshlands where the Targus River or
the Guadalquivir River come out to the

sea and they would have Buddied up like
the African animals do cross species

because even up to about the 6th century
AD of the common era There were lion

in southern Iberia and most of southern
Europe not just wolf, but big cats.

So Just like the African things
they're hanging out and they've got,

you know, there are the wild cows.

They're quite aggressive Very
territorial, carry these little, like

African Cape Buffalo, they, you know,
carry these territories around them.

If you cross inadvertently
over that, they'll attack you.

But if you step outside, just one
step, they'll leave you alone again.

You can imagine the horses were
just constantly, you know, testing,

going over those boundaries and
having to sort of zip sideways.

And then everyone's accommodating
everyone else and trying to say, you know.

Are we all right?

Are you okay?

But we all want to be together
because we know we're safer together.

And now here we are
keeping them in isolation.

But here we are presenting them with
a cross species opportunity, which

is presumably built into the DNA.

Why wouldn't they bring those behaviors,
ancestral behaviors, out to us?

And then equally, how could we in our
modern state possibly recognize them?

Because we are so far removed
from that way of life ourselves.

And then it, we're sort of blind
leading blind and then we end up with

pathological behaviors that everyone's
misunderstanding everybody, perhaps.

Something which I wanted to ask you
about that business of the sleeping.

Most people these days do not have
the luxury, unfortunately, of keeping

their horses in herd situations.

I wish it were not, you know,
I wish it were otherwise, but

it's, it's just how it is.

And I sometimes get sad when I'm at
Horse exposed and that sort of thing

and you hear people say, oh you've got
to keep your horse in the herd And if

you don't know and they're often like
people from Wyoming or whatever and

like dude Well, you've got the state of
Wyoming, you know But yeah, if you're

in the suburbs of wherever you don't
have that option and you can't say to

those people They shouldn't own a horse.

The herd situation is not
necessarily available.

And then even if it is, like if it's
an what you call an active style you

know, a sort of open stable in Germany,
the herds are relatively fluid.

They're not established herds of
years and years and years that have

the luxury of that kind of stability.

And in therapeutic barns, for sure this
is often the case, I mean there's, there

are many therapeutic barns who do have
land, but there's an awful lot that don't,

and I'm thinking about in particular one
really good project that we have with

Horseboy in the middle, and I mean the
middle of Dublin, and some people would

say, well you shouldn't keep horses
there, other people would say, yeah, but.

Those kids in the middle of Dublin would
have no access otherwise and Their horses

are performing a great service and healing
and the people who are running the barn

of course are you know Behaving rationally
and rotating them in and out from a place

in the country where they can actually go
out and blah blah So they're doing what

they can but Can you speak to this a bit?

Because I, I think this is a dilemma for
a lot of horse owners and particularly

horse owners that have really sort
of active programs, you know, lots

of clients, that sort of thing.

And they, they haven't got the
luxury of necessarily waiting

for a horse in that way.

They haven't got necessarily
the staff that are attuned.

They're not coming out of
a culture that values that.

They might say, well that's the horse.

You know all the things they'd
say and into the bargain.

Well, maybe that horse isn't getting
enough sleep So knowing what you know now,

what would you what advice do you have
for people in these imperfect scenarios?

Through no fault of their own.

Warwick Schiller: Well, probably
the first thing I'd say is

Horses are very resilient.

They will adapt to whatever's going on
And if you know if a horse is exhibiting

anxious and possibly therefore dangerous
behaviors, then you want to try to

remedy that because they're, they're
not going to be, if they're in like

a therapeutic thing, they're not
going to be able to work for that.

But you know, that's on the,
that's on the, the fight flight.

That's on the, that's

Rupert Isaacson: on the extreme end.

It's on,

Warwick Schiller: well, that's it's on
the sympathetic nervous system part of it.

Many times for a horse to exist in those
types of conditions, they kind of can

go inside their head a bit and they're
more in a, if you're into polyvagal

stuff, they're more in a, like a
dorsal vagal shut downy type existence.

And a lot of people get
really bent out of shape.

Like they shouldn't be like that.

You know, in my marriage, my wife has.

Even though she no longer identifies
as anxious, she's been the anxious one.

And I've been the, what I
thought was the cool, calm and

collected one all of my life.

Then I realized that, Oh, no, she's
been living in a sympathetic state.

She's been living in anxiety and
I've been living in shutdown.

The thing about being in shutdown,
like think about if you're

anxious, you know, you're anxious.

It's not a good feeling if you're in
shutdown and you've only ever lived in

shutdown and you don't know anything
else, it's not a bad place to be.

It's a pretty.

Pretty peaceful sort of a place.

Now there is more to life than living
in that dorsal vagal tone but if

a horse

in say like a Healing scenario like
you know Like you know some of the

programs you're talking about and you
deal with if they're in a bit of that

state In order for it to work, they're
quite happy to be in that, you know,

they're, they're not, they're not
wishing they were some, they're not

suffering, they're not suffering at all.

And like I said, speaking from
personal experience, when you shut

down, you're not suffering at all.

You're not, you're not aware.

That you're suffering, you know,
the world may be a bit gray,

but Hey, it's, it's all good.

So, you know, I'd say as long as,
you know, as long as a horse is

well, the thing about if, you know,
like I said, if they're anxious and

they're, they're, they're exhibiting
anxious behaviors, which can be

dangerous for them or dangerous for
the humans around them, they're not

going to get looked after very well.

They're probably going
to end up in France.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Whereas if they.

You know, they're more tractable
sort of thing that they will,

they will have a purpose.

They'll be fed.

They'll be looked after.

They'll have a life.

So I don't, I'm not really judgmental
about people who, you know, can't have

a horse in the most perfect situation.

They're very adaptable and, and someone
that you and I both know, a lady from

Sweden named Emily Kay's daughter is a.

Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call her
an animal communicator cause that would

be selling her, her powers very, very
short, but like she, she connects with the

actual, the consciousness of all horses.

And she will tell us that the horses
are like, we'll do whatever we need.

We're like, we don't hold any grudges.

When you, when you show up differently,
we can show up differently.

We don't hold grudges.

We.

You know, and so I don't, you
know, I think people can get,

you know, maybe a little emotional
about horses if they don't have

just the most perfect life.

You know what I mean?

Whereas I feel like they're, they're
a lot more adaptable than that.

And I think about the, you know,
horses in that shut down sort of a

state, if you, you know, if you think
about nervous system states, you go

from, you know, you go from you know,
relaxed or, you know, having a regulated

nervous, you know, you're relaxed and
then fight or flight comes after that.

And then if you're captured or fight
or flight's not, doesn't work, then

the free state comes after that,
that dorsal state comes after that.

So you have to be careful about trying
to bring a horse out of a dorsal state,

if you so choose, because the next step
on the ladder is going to be more of

a sympathetic state and not going to
go from dorsal to, Oh, now he's good.

And so you really, you know,
I think for a lot of horses.

Leaving him in that bit of a dorsal state.

I'm not talking about comatose type
thing or catatonic sort of a thing.

And we see, that's what that
Mustang would do though.

He'd be in this kind
of a dorsal shut down.

He'd kind of a state, but
then he'd come out of it.

And

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it's interesting.

I think as you speak, I'm thinking about,
well, the lives that a lot of the horses

that I know that are in, for example,
our programs now that said that the

programs that we've got, the people who
run them, they're excellent horse people.

And they.

Do everything for the horses welfare,
but one of the things I've noticed that

even in the, in the situations where
the conditions aren't everything we

would like them to be, what the horses
do have is a really interesting set of

relationships with a really interesting
set of humans, as well as the other

equines that are there, but the humans
that are coming in and not coming in and

saying, you must do this and sort of just
bossing them about that they're coming

in with an enormous vulnerability and you
definitely see horses showing all sides

of their personalities in a way that

from the outside it appears that the
horse is feeling fulfilled and has a

sense of purpose and a sense of pleasure
in the relationship with this variety

of interesting but vulnerable humans
that are coming through the door.

Here's a question I wanted to ask When
I got my dressage hat on and I'm being

brought into clinic, in that the biggest
problem I usually see isn't fear or

stress in that particular type of stress.

Usually it's boredom.

The horse is just bored.

And you said something, as I made a little
note here, back in your first, when you,

story, you were saying, well, is the horse
just bored with endlessly going through

the same drill again, and then After
a while, you thought, well, maybe not.

Maybe it's something else.

Dressage is part of what I do for
reasons that have to do more with

nervous system effects on people.

I've never thought that it needs
to be boring because you can

vary it in so many different ways
if you want to make it playful.

And, you know, it can be
whatever you want it to be.

But naturally, most people
are presented with it.

as something that's come
out of the military.

So therefore a very regimented
sort of drill thing.

And similarly, you see similar things
in the Western world and you see similar

things in I think any of the disciplines.

When the horses are in this level of
boredom, but they're also activating

sympathetic nervous system because
they need to perform really use their

bodies and then presumably they're also
getting endorphins you know presumably

that it's not all bad but you can see
this boredom you can see this desire to

just express yourself and then of course
there's the odd horse who can express

themselves in that situation and they
tend to win a lot of prizes but the

average one does not with the attunement

what do you say to people who are
with a horse that is kind of doing

the same thing every day, all day.

And you know that that person doesn't
feel safe doing anything else.

So no matter what you say,
not much is going to change.

What are the, what are the, and this
can happen in the not so good therapy

settings as well, where the horses are
just being pulled out and Effectively

give them pony rides and they're stiff
and they're arthritic and this sort of

thing But again, people will come up
with a bazillion reasons why they can't

change it, you know And then you realize
that you can't push this boulder uphill.

So you realize that okay, that's
how it's going to be What do

you what's your like minimum

set of tools that you will
try to leave people with to?

Make it as optimal as it can be
even if you know, it's not going to

be everything you'd like it to be

Warwick Schiller: I'm not exactly
sure of your question, but I

wanted to, you know, this whole
attunement thing is not just about

listening in the beginning.

It's listening all the time and noticing
the horses getting bored and changing

things up would be part of listening.

You know what I mean?

It's not this, you know,
listening is not, yeah.

I listened to the, I listened to you
when I first got you and now we're, we're

training, you know, I, I feel, you know,
if you've ever heard the, the, the saying

to do with training horses, you know,
you want to reward the slightest try.

Okay.

When you reward the slightest try, not
only are you rewarding the slightest

try, which means usually would mean
removing an aid or whatever, not only

are you rewarding the slightest try,
you're communicating your awareness.

Of that try.

And I really feel that
is a huge part of a horse

trusting

you.

You like, you just, you just
you, you're repetitively

saying, I noticed little things.

I notice little things.

I notice little things.

I notice little things.

And I think that's, I think that's part
of the thing that makes them feel safe.

And I just want to talk about that
while it was on my fresh in my mind.

Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

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assisted field, you might want to consider

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It works incredibly well.

It's now in about 40 countries.

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If you're working without horses,
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Finally, we have taquine
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If you know anything about our
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So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

And it also ends your time conflict,
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Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

absolutely gives you this.

Warwick Schiller: Can you ask
your question again though?

'cause I don't think I really got, yeah.

Well read of your question.

Rupert Isaacson: When people are locked
into a system where they are doing.

The same stuff over and over again.

And they feel that they have to.

And no matter what you say,
they're going to defend that.

And you know that you're going to
have to walk away from that clinic,

that situation, that whatever.

Trying to leave a set of easy tools
that will hopefully shift things just

a little bit in that listening way
in a culture that Not only doesn't

listen, but doesn't know how to listen.

And there are many cultures like this.

Do you have a set of tools?

Okay, you coming to, let's say you come
to my barn and you just notice that I'm

not really listening much and you try
to show me a bit about how to listen and

I'm just not listening to you either.

Really, not much.

You know, you're gonna
leave day after tomorrow.

What do, do you have
like a go to strategy?

Three or four things that

With somebody like that with somebody
like me in that situation you would

say, okay I'm gonna give Rupert
these three easy things and if he

does these three easy things the
rest will kind of begin to shift

Warwick Schiller: My my go to is I don't
offer advice unless people are asking

So I don't look over the fence and go
hey, you should be doing it differently

so that's like the the first part is if
I was at your place and Unless I didn't

know you, and I was at your place, and
you were doing something that I didn't

agree with and thought you could do it
differently, unless you said, Hey, any

suggestions on how to do this better?

I wouldn't.

Say a word.

And the other thing is, I'm, you know,
they say you create your own luck and I'm

very lucky that I've been very upfront
like on social media and things like

that about the way I view the world.

And so I don't get people coming to
clinics who aren't terribly interested

in the way I'm doing things these days.

So I'm very, very lucky.

I don't, I don't, I don't, I
don't deal with people and this

is not, I don't deal with them.

I don't I don't get confronted with
people who want to defend their position.

Who are doing

Rupert Isaacson: a lot of
resistance to, yeah, yeah.

Warwick Schiller: Yes.

And, and, and, you know, I do quite
a few horse expos, but I recruit

the people for the demo too.

So I look for horses
with a certain problem.

I have them send me videos and I can see
the problem, like, yeah, I can help you.

So I don't have a good answer for that.

Cause I really.

I'm not, like I said, I'm very,
very lucky that I'm not ever in

a position to where I have to try
to convince people of something.

All right, well then I'm

Rupert Isaacson: going to pose the
question differently because sometimes

I am in that position sometimes.

The, the old god of therapeutic riding
also came out of the military to some

degree and isn't really attuned for
people like my son when he was young.

People are too bossy.

There's an assumption of top down
instruction being understood.

People are irritable.

There's a, there's, if you, as you know,
if you boss People around who've got,

who don't understand what you're talking
about and have overactive amygdalas.

It will just cause distress and harm
and so on and so on, but the people

who, who might be in that situation,
they're in there still for the right

reasons and therapeutic riding when
it was born was really addressing

physical injury.

With some psychological trauma things
attached to it, but the people who

had basic top down understanding their
cognition was quote unquote normal

And they were basically motivated
to be there motivated to get on

horse with A non verbal autistic
kid, this is not the case at all.

And I myself would not have been
able to listen in the way that I

can have my own son not trained
me, because nothing else worked.

Fortunately, I'd also
lived at the Bushman.

I'd learned some things there.

But it was hard enough for me.

When I go in, I do have a
set of tools which I try to

to leave.

The first one is follow the child.

And then I break down what
follow the child means.

Follow the child is physically, you
actually physically have to kind

of follow them around and observe.

Otherwise you've got no idea what
motivates them because they're not going

to tell you because they're not verbal.

You know, the second one is
emotionally because that's often.

Sensorial, sensorally, one will think
that the tantrums and meltdowns and

whatever are coming out of the blue or
the sudden states of ecstasy But they're

actually not, they're usually in response
to something hitting the nervous system

and because you're observing this kid
because you're physically following them

around you begin to notice what's in
the environment when they're upset and

when they're happy and You can begin to
organize their environment because you

see these patterns Then the third way the
final way is following them intellectually

and this is about finding out.

What are their obsessions?

And really diving into those even if you
don't like them, even if they bore you

even I don't care much about minecraft
Frankly, you know i'm not into Computer

games, but I will absolutely get into
that, why that kid is into them and then

learn to talk about it and print out and
cut out and laminate the characters from

that show or that game and tie them to
trees so that we got a treasure hunt to

follow that because that's where the kid's
interest is that I'm going to follow that

and I'm going to, those would be like,
that's a standard tool that I would go in

with and it's not mine that I thought up
by the way, Temple Grandin gave it to me.

Most of my good ideas are not my own.

People are listening to you now, and
they're wondering what they can do without

Warwick Schiller being in their barn,
coming to their place, saying, I would

like to get more attunement with my horse.

I would like to listen more.

How do they do this?

Warwick Schiller: Well, you know what's
funny is, ahem, You the, the, the

three basic things that you just talked
about, the following, all the stuff.

It's, it's, it's, it's my
basic rule too, which is first

you've got to give up control.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Warwick Schiller: Giving up control
is the very, very, very first thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.

Warwick Schiller: And, you know, you,
the thing about, the thing about giving

up control is you have to be able to.

You know, when you're dealing with
a thousand pound animal is you've

got to be able to give up control
in a situation to where Giving up

control is not going to get anybody
hurt them or you but you know for me,

you know, having them give it usually
usually the You know helping people

with their horses a lot of times.

There's they have these
Transformational moments.

I'm not trying to do equine assisted
therapy, but helping people with their

horses So many people have like of these
little big aha And a lot of, a lot of

times it's because they gave up control
and it worked out and they've almost never

been able to give up control in their
entire life because they've been scared

of giving up control because what's on
the other side of that fear sort of thing.

And when I can help somebody.

Give up control and it actually helps
them solve the problems with their horses.

They've been trying to solve It's almost
like a metaphor for life Like the the

magic is on the other side of your
other side of your fear and and you know

Not giving up control is all the you
know, it's a very fear based Fear based

type thing, but it's interesting in
your tongue about the following thing.

So I had a

And a lady came to a clinic years
ago and riding her horse, he would,

he has, he has sleep deprivation.

So he'll be, she'll be sitting on him
and he'll just buckle at the knees

and almost fall down and jump up.

And very, very shut down horse, like
really in his head sort of thing.

And one of the, she'd been to, I'd
probably see her every six months.

She'd, she probably went to
clinics for a number of years.

And initially she, she trained this
horse with another person's program

that was very, very obedience based.

You do this, you do that, you do this.

And she got him to where he was like a
robot, like very robotic and low energy.

She couldn't get more energy out of him.

And one of the reasons she wanted,
she sought me out was how do

I get more energy out of him?

Well, she was trying to have more.

Input go in to get more energy out.

But the thing was, this horse
was completely dorsal, you know,

like he was very, very shut down.

And so any energy that went into him,
he just basically blocked it out.

And, you know, for her, I was trying to
get her to start the conversation, but

there was no starting point because the
way he'd been interacted with, he was just

like, humans suck sort of thing, you know.

And one of the things I had to
do was matching steps with him.

So basically following him around, like
if he walks, if you're on the ground

there with him and he walks off, just
go with him, go wherever he goes.

Don't try to redirect him because the
redirecting is not available anyway

and he's been asked to do too much.

And I wasn't doing that to solve
any sleep deprivation issues.

I was doing that to, like as a
starting point for the conversation.

And so she's at one clinic, this was in
LA and she, I basically got a matching

steps and just go on where he goes.

If he stops, she stops.

If he turns right, she turns right without
putting any pressure on the lead rope.

Anyway, she's leading him around and
then he walks around a circle, lays

down, goes to sleep, lays flat and
starts almost like, not convulsing,

but like, almost like a dog chasing
rabbits in his sleep sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Warwick Schiller: And he's weaning and
his little legs are going and like she

said, and one of the things she said is he
never lays down, I've never seen him lay

down, and so he lays down at this clinic
and has this sleep for a while, and he

never looks at the environment, like he
walks around and stares at the ground,

like he's just like a He's just mmm.

It's almost like a non maybe like
a nonverbal child sort of thing.

You know what I mean?

Anyway after this sleep he chases the
rabbits, you know he's little legs

are gone and then he jumps up and
Looks over in the distance and snorts

and stuck and like really alert with
his head stuck in the air and his

ears Prick, you know, and these are
these are things he never exhibits

But it came from, came from that
following and where'd the following

come from giving up control, stop
trying to control the animal,

Rupert Isaacson: you

Warwick Schiller: know, and if you
think about what I did with the

Mustang, I gave up control, like he
turns his head instead of me going,

you are subservient to me and you need
to move your head back there cause I

want to walk down here and do my thing.

I think that's the, that's kind of
the, the start of the conversation

and, and, and under saddle too.

Undersaddle too, very much so, but that's,
but like I said you know, I don't Talk to

Rupert Isaacson: us about when
you're giving up control undersaddle.

I think that's hard for a
lot of people to picture.

Warwick Schiller: That's easy, ask him,
you know, for me, a horse has to be able

to walk, trot, and canter on a loose
rein, but no steering, no influence

from the rider, and use the whole arena
before we even start doing much else.

I want the horse to be as comfortable
under saddle with a human on

their back as they are walking
around out there on their own.

Like, you know, you don't see horses
crab walking sideways or things like that

when no one's, when no one's riding them.

And so I, I, I basically
want to have them to where

you can, like I said, walk, trot,
kennel, no steering on a loose run.

You know, you think about a lot of times
people, when they start riding a horse,

they want the horse to go forward.

But then there's all these limiting
factors and what I call what do I call it?

Opposing forces.

Okay.

When you're working on forward, it's
forward only, not forward in a certain

direction with a certain carriage,
with a certain amount of contact.

It's, can you go forward?

And if they're standing still and you ask
them to walk, don't, and you don't steer

them, the reins are completely loose,
the horse can do whatever they want.

A lot of times they will tell
you where their mind is at.

And usually they'll just walk
straight over to the gate.

Okay, because their thoughts are
back at the barn or back with

their friends or whatever but

You know, that's, that's
normally what will happen.

Well, either one or
two things will happen.

I'll do that.

Or when they go to walk off, they'll
walk and then they'll get a bunch of

energy and they'll go off into a trot,
you know, like they'll start to run off

and that's when you can just pick up one
round and redirect that energy back around

until you kind of wind it back down.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Well, I think that's an essential
point because it can sound very

extreme to say I'm giving up
control completely if the horse.

Now takes off at a fast canter in the
arena heading towards the corner very fast

or whatever or whatever and oh shit now
suddenly Maybe they're gonna fall over.

Yeah, but what you're saying is
no you are still Directing a bit.

Warwick Schiller: Well, you give up
control until you need to take control.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, but that's
you have control and if they control

themselves Crucial point to make

Warwick Schiller: they have
still has to be control.

Mm hmm.

Okay, you give up control And the horse
should be under their own control.

And if they lose control, then you have
to take control and, but you're not

trying to stop things from happening.

It's not out of a, it's not out
of a out of a, you shouldn't

be doing that mentality.

It's, it's kind of like if, if a if an
autistic child is having a meltdown,

do you tell them, get in their face
and tell them, stop doing that.

You know what I mean?

It's the same thing with a horse gets,
gets emotionally activated trying

to say, no, you shouldn't do that.

You know, you can't,
you can't stop energy.

So all, you know, all you're going to
do is just redirect that energy till it

kind of winds back down and they come
to a stop that is also a present stop.

Meaning their mind, a lot of times
people can get a horse to come to a halt,

but their mind is still in the future.

And that's where that
energy was coming from.

You got to wait till
their thoughts change.

And now they're in their body,
their mind and their body are in

the same place at the same time.

Because a lot of times what
happens is their thoughts run

away and then their body runs away
to catch up to their thoughts.

So when you bring them back down again
and they come to a stop but their

thoughts are still going, you just
wait till the thoughts come back to you

and right there, they are now present.

Their mind and body are in the
same place at the same time.

And what have you just done?

Attunement.

You just said, I noticed the
moment that your thoughts went

from the future to the present.

And when you release the rain,
right, then you've, you've got

the physical thing where they're,
they're, they're minding their body

in the same place at the same time.

But you've also said, I'm so in tune with
you that I noticed when your thoughts

changed, when you let go of that thought,
when you let go of that anxious thought.

And so the, you know, giving up control.

It's not, it's not about
being out of control.

It's about giving up control and.

But they still, but they have
to be under their own control.

That's this whole walk, trot,
kennel, loose rein, but no steering.

Before I start doing much with horses,
they have to be under their own control.

You don't control the horse.

You control you.

Presumably

Rupert Isaacson: some horses are
going to come in so far from that,

that in 20, 10 to 30 minutes,
they may or may not be able to

Warwick Schiller: Usually when I'm doing
a clinic if any horse has any anxiety

sort of stuff, we start on the ground
the first day, we don't, you know, I

don't usually go, yes, let's start, let's
start, you have, you have ridden issues,

let's start there, I don't usually do
that, you know, usually I tell, usually

I tell them, you know, I've got this
under saddle problem, I'll say that

Einstein once said that approaching a
problem at the level of the problem, Is

the problem, you know, cause it's going
to be an emotional regulation thing.

It's not going to be a, there, there
is no bolting issue or rearing issue

or bucking issue, whatever it's
their emotional regulation issues.

And if you get the emotions regulated,
the bodies, the body works just fine.

Rupert Isaacson: When you've got,
I'm thinking about people who are in

really busy situations, for example,
a therapy bar, loads of clients coming

in, they're usually almost overwhelmed.

And it's difficult to turn people away.

So chances are they've got more
clients than they can handle.

That's usually what I see.

People are overworked.

So their worry is often, well, how am
I going to find time to do anything

other than serve these clients?

Because, you know, that's where
my primary, primary, you know,

sense of service needs to be.

We faced this issue ourselves
when we were at our.

sort of busiest at new trails in Texas
and The work that we needed to do for

the horses to condition them We're like
shit, we can't do it because we're just

overwhelmed and then I say, oh, hold on.

Hold on I'm thinking about this the
wrong way the conditioning work needs

to be The work with the client and then
why can't the client learn to also do

the conditioning work because Many of
these people absolutely can and then this

whole other side of what we do called
taking got born Just exactly that which

was which took out the time conflict
but it's very difficult for people to

see beyond the time conflict when that's
right in their face understandably and

so Let's say people are listening to
you now and they're going, well, I'd

love to do some of this stuff that
Warwick's talking about, but you know,

where am I going to find the time?

How could they mix that in
with time working with clients?

So for example, the first question
they're going to have is what I

can't, you know, lose control of the
horse while they're with the client.

So we faced this problem too.

And we came up with this
thing called crazy time.

And so we realized that a lot of times
the horses just needed play and they

weren't getting it, for whatever reason.

So we could create it and we would go in
the arena, put a bunch of obstacles out.

The horses liked jumping,
there were jumps.

If they didn't, there were other things.

And we'd encourage the horses to play and
About every two minutes we go and change

it, to keep the horses sort of interested.

And then, what we do is we start measuring
out the distances, and widths and heights

of the jump, and then the distance of
the long side, and how fast do you, or

the horse, or the dog, go down that long
side, and then you can calculate distance

over time, and suddenly you're doing
math, you're getting speed, and there's

also horsemanship, and there's also
team building, and we suddenly realize,

Oh my gosh, that's a whole program!

And we can absolutely give the
horses what they need to Not have any

control without the time conflict,
but it took us a while to get there.

And we got there because, you know,
We were getting stressed and our

horses were getting stressed and we
had to come up with something creative

when people are Wanting to do what
you're talking about There's time

that they need to take to do this.

Some of them may feel they haven't
got it again Are there easy hacks

that you can recommend that can
just introduce aspects of this

into quote unquote working sessions

Warwick Schiller: Well, I, you
know, I don't know much about

the whole therapeutic writing.

But I'm also thinking of writing
schools, for example, I'm thinking

it's sort of any writing, writing,
writing, writing, writing, writing

schools would be quite, quite easy.

And let me tell you a little story.

So there is a there's a couple of
places here in America, they're

resorts, they're very high end resorts.

They're there's, there's two of them.

I mean, there's a lot more than these two,
but these two are like sister ones, you

know, that's owned by the same company.

And they do have a,
like an equine assisted.

One of the things you can do is go
ride a horse, but it's meant to be,

it's meant to be, you know, personal
growth, self reflection type stuff.

And.

We actually had some of the people that
run the horse park come to one of our

retreats last year and they were saying,
we want you to come and, we want you

to come and help us because our horses,
you know, tend to deteriorate over time.

How do we, how do we, and we
don't really have the time to.

To do the right thing with the horses that
you know, and it was all that and I said,

oh, I've got it I've got a great idea
because like I said before a lot of times

when people come to a clinic They'll have
a transformational experience on they've

come to the clinic to have me help them
with their horses But in the helping of

the with their horses usually they've got
a they've got a face Part of themselves.

They don't normally face it
might be giving up control.

It might be they're too quick to
anger It might be they're too timid.

It might be one of those sorts of things
And so I'm gonna go to one of these

places to this place and I'm gonna
spend a couple of days there and help

They the instructors or whatever you
whatever they are the therapists where

they are show them some things they can
do with the horses and the people at the

same time and actually have the people
training the horses, but the people

will be getting the, the, you know,
the personal growth, self reflection

benefit out of it while they, while
they are actually helping the horses.

Be more consistent in their job,
you know, because I don't I almost

don't think you can separate the two
I would so agree But these are these

are you know, these are these people
are going to be able bodied and you

know, I'm not I'm not talking about

You know if you've if you've got to have
Two handlers leading the horse and two

people holding the person on the horse.

That's a totally different scenario.

These are, you know, these
are able bodied people.

So, you know, like I said, I
don't know too much about the

whole Well, for example, when

Rupert Isaacson: we're in exactly that
situation that you just described,

let's say we've, we've got someone
who's not stable and there are.

A couple of us on either side and
we're having to create a very safe

environment but what I need to do is
also create oxytocin for that human's

nervous system And I need to create BDNF
brain derived neurotrophic factor for

the cognition And I want the horse to
be getting its yoga at the same time.

So I'll be using in hand
patterns, long reining patterns,

while that person's up there.

We'll be doing the jaw flexions, we'll
be helping the horse to flex the neck,

we'll be doing whatever we can do that we
would be doing anyway in a conditioning

session while the horse is working.

Warwick Schiller: But it's a,
it's a, it's a conditioning

session, not a training session.

Exactly.

You're not, you're not teaching
this horse to do this movement.

No, I'm not going to teach the horse

Rupert Isaacson: something
new while they've got, or they

have to take care of somebody.

No.

Warwick Schiller: Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And I think
that's actually a very good

point that you just made.

There is a big difference between
conditioning and training.

And what gets confusing is
they often look quite similar.

The same exercise could
be for either, right?

You know, rather like martial arts,
you could use a certain movement

of your arm to condition your arm.

Or to actually learn how to punch.

It's essentially the same
movement, but how you do it.

And the intention with which
you do it, you know, but I think

the point that you've raised,
which I think is really useful is

where the difficulty with giving up
control is, I think, is that what we're

all taught, what we're all conditioned
to when we're small is this idea of

separation, that we are separate from
other things, that we have to separate

our time, this is work time, this is
play time, this is sleep time, this is,

you know, this is relaxed time, this
is alert time, whereas in fact it's, In

a perfect world, it's much more fluid.

And one doesn't have to separate
out conditioning from the horse

working, et cetera, et cetera.

But it's a mental leap,
I think for many of us.

And it was for me to, to not
automatically make those separations.

Like when we're working in
schools with our movement method

program and trying to show.

A teacher.

No, you don't have to separate
movement from learning.

You can absolutely do it in the same
time, but it's not your fault that

you think that you have to, because
that's always how it's been presented.

To get over these things is tricky.

You've talked about sleep deprivation
a couple of times in this.

How often is this something
that you're seeing coming up

Warwick Schiller: with horses?

Not often.

Okay.

And you know, and there's a lot
of reason for sleep deprivation.

The ones that I have, there's been
a few of them at clinics that it

seems That the stuff that I'm doing
has helped them with their sleep

deprivation, but I wasn't trying to
help them with sleep deprivation.

It was more the attunement stuff was
more communicating my awareness of

their awareness that sort of thing.

You know, there's a, there's a podcast,
there's a vet that does a podcast and

she did an episode on sleep deprivation.

Someone said, you should listen
to this vet on this podcast.

She's really good.

So I looked through, I scrolled through
the whole list of podcasts you know, her

episodes and one was on sleep deprivation.

I thought, well.

I've had a little bit of
experience with that at clinics.

I'll have a listen.

And this vet said the only reasons horses
have sleep deprivation is from pain.

And it's from like being sore in
their hocks and they can't lay,

they don't want to lay down because
they have a hard time getting up.

And I'm thinking I didn't inject
the hocks of these horses.

So what I'm saying is I think
there's a lot of different

reason for sleep deprivation.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Warwick Schiller: Some of it can be pain.

I've not encountered those because
I didn't do any pain with, you

know, the, the, the ones that I've
encountered and I wasn't trying to

resolve sleep deprivation, the ones
that I've encountered, you know, they

just had dysregulated nervous systems.

And that was just the attunement
stuff that I was working on

to make them feel better.

It just so happened.

Some of them had helped them with their
sleep deprivation that, you know, like

that Mustang after he laid in and went
to sleep, I said, does he do that often?

So I knew nothing about,
he doesn't lay down.

The other one with the
buckling knees, yeah, he was.

He I knew that he had that problem,
but I wasn't trying to resolve that.

I wasn't trying to resolve that problem.

So it's not like I'm any
expert on sleep deprivation.

I'm not an expert on much, but most
everything I have come up with is all

pretty being empiric and it's, I, I tend
to come to the science from the backend.

I will,

maybe I'll intuitively do something with
a horse at a clinic and it works and it's.

Different than anything
else I've ever done.

And then you look at the science
and you figure out, Oh yeah.

Like polyvagal theory, I rejected
polyvagal theory for the longest time.

People said, you should
read about polyvagal theory.

Well, I wasn't interested in a theory.

I want the facts, man.

You know what I mean?

But after I started
reading about it, I'm like.

Oh, that's what happened to the Mustang.

That's what happened with this horse.

That's what happened with that horse.

And so I tend to come to the science
from the background, bigger things

that empirically, and then I read stuff
that explains scientifically why that

works, it's, you know, it's kind of
like these days scientists, you know,

like quantum entanglement and all that
sort of stuff can explain religion and

shamanic things in scientific terms.

But you know, they, they, they
were empiric things first.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.

It's, it's, it's looking at why
the thing is happening that we keep

observing, but we know it's happening
because we keep observing it.

Warwick Schiller: Yeah, and you said,
speaking of observing, you said something

before about People think that their
autistic children's outbursts, uh, random,

but if you're observant and you go, what
was going on right before this happened

and you see things happen enough times,
you're like, Oh, I know what triggers it.

And that's, that's totally empiric, but
it's, but it's about being observant.

So it's about not having a
story about what's going on and

letting what's going on tell you.

What's going on?

You know, you and I have had a
conversation some other time about a book

I read by a guy named Charles Foster, who
is a British Maybe he's an anthropologist.

Maybe he's a I forget what he is,
but he wrote a book called being a

human exploration in 50, 000 years of
consciousness and He goes, him and his

son go to the north of England and live in
the forests up there as hunter gatherers

for six months or something like that.

He was eating hedgehogs.

And I think there was one time there he
spent 11 days without eating anything.

And the visions that he had from the
hunger were like plant medicine journeys,

but it was just from not eating.

And, but anyway, one of the things he
says in there, he's talking about the

trees and he said In this book, he says,
you know what, I've never really seen

a tree as a matter of fact, it's been
a long time since I've seen anything.

He said, when I look at a tree, I don't
see the tree because I'm a, he's a

botanist or a naturalist or whatever.

He says, when I look at a tree, I quantify
what type of trees, is it deciduous?

You know, what sort of things
tend to grow around it?

What, what.

bugs eats it, what birds live in it.

But he said, I don't really see the tree
because I've got a story about the tree.

And he said, I once met a man who could
see a tree and it scared me so much.

I left that temple, took a
bus back to Kathmandu and flew

straight home from the airport.

And so he's talking
about someone who could.

See exactly what's in front of him
without a story attached to it.

And I feel like with the horses,

part of this attunement thing is getting
to the point to where you can just see

what they're telling you without your own,
without your own story attached to it.

Cause I think there's a,
there's a, there's a vibration

and an energy to your story.

And that's the thing I, I can't
you know, you can't give somebody

that they've almost got to,
they've almost got to be able.

Got to kind of work on that themselves.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we are the
storytelling ape after all, we

can't help it, you know, it's,
it's, it's, that's also the best

side of us, that's our healing.

Yeah.

But your original point, which is
that basically what you're trying

to do is make horses feel safe.

If they feel heard, if they feel seen, i.

e.

observed, listened to, this kind of
deep listening, they will feel safe.

If they feel safe, then if they
need to sleep, they can sleep.

If they need to do this, they can do it.

And then they can return to their sort
of appropriate nervous system behavior.

Well being.

Well being, I suppose.

There's been a couple of
people that I work with.

In our programs who've been doing
Warwick Schiller achievement stuff

for a while, and they report back
to me that it really helps them,

not just in the horse side, but it
really helps them in the human side.

One of them is a mutual friend of
ours, somebody called Leanna Tank,

who I'm looking forward to when you
interview her because, as you know,

she works in the criminal justice
system in Michigan with people who

have, Often committed quite monstrous
crimes, the most atrocious of crimes.

The most atrocious of crimes.

But who were acquitted
for reasons of insanity.

So we're not talking about psychopaths
who were delightedly planning it and

laughing about it or anything like that.

We're talking about people who were
under extraordinary psychosis or

such great distress or whatever.

That this thing happened.

And I've often asked her why is it Leanna
that you can do this work over years

and hang out in this situation where
people it's not that Other people's

lives have really suffered their
own lifers, you know, and they're in

lockdowns and you come in and You seem
to be able to not lose your likeness of

heart and at the same time you seem to
be able to impart Some of that to help

bring back quality of life and some
degree of wellbeing to people who've

lost a wellbeing and whose society
might say do not deserve wellbeing.

And she said, well, you know, a
lot of the attunement stuff with

Warwick actually helped me with this.

She said, I wasn't actually maybe
quite as, as, I think she always had a

predisposition for it, obviously, but
she said, I, I started really looking at.

where their eyes were going, or really
listening to what they were talking about,

or really beginning to ask them things
like stuff about their taste in music, and

stuff about their taste in art, and she
said what happened, and then taking them

out into nature and realizing that, rather
like the horse that you were describing,

sort of suddenly looking off into the
distance, people who hadn't been out for

a long time, and they'd suddenly start
doing this sort of thing, and Then she'd

look where they were looking and think,
well, are they looking at the clouds?

Right.

So making an observation about that
and then the person, yes, yes, I

think it is coming on to rain and this
creating human connection, but I think.

It does come down to safety.

If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

of dressage training.

If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

well being of the horse and the rider.

Intrigued?

Like to know more?

Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

Check out the free introduction course.

Take it from there.

Warwick Schiller: Can I
just interrupt right there?

There's a lady who's been to
several of my clinics in Texas.

And she's a

she works in a juvenile psych ward.

And she's some sort of a social
worker, I think, you know,

like a juvenile psych ward.

And the last time I saw her, I
said, I said, how's work, you know?

Cause she had told me
some interesting stories.

I said, how's work?

She goes, Oh, it's, it's terrible.

You know, it's been really hard.

She said, we've had, we've had
kids in there as young as the.

Who've been trafficked, some of them
from as young as the age of four.

And I'm like, Oh my God,
where do you even start?

Like they've got to be,

you know, so broken.

I said, where do you even start?

And she said, well, most
of them are nonverbal.

And she said, the room we have each
of them in has like two twin beds,

one on either side, you know, but they
don't put two people in the same room.

And she said, a lot of times these
kids will just curl up on their bed

in the corner and face the wall.

And she said.

How, and you can't speak to them,
speaking to them makes them cower.

You know, you can't look directly at them.

She said, where we start.

And this is, you know, this is
like what Temple Green had told you

with, with Rowan, it's a type of
following, but it's just mirroring.

She said, if they're curled up
in the corner on their bed, you

go and curl up on the other bed,
the same way they're curled up.

And if they move their posture at all,
you move your posture the same way.

And you're telling them two things.

And one of the things you're telling
them is I don't want anything from you.

I'm not going to approach you, I'm
not going to come anywhere near,

I don't want anything from you.

But the other thing you're doing
is communicating, I'm very aware of

how you're feeling about everything.

And you know, I'm very aware of where
your posture, what your posture looks

like and I adjust my, and after a
while, she said those that's, that's

the in, they'll actually start to

let you in just a little bit.

And like that horse that, that, you know,
that had the sleep deprivation when he

used to buckle at the knees that lay
down at the clinic, that's what the, all

that was about was having him let us.

In, but you couldn't ask him to do
anything to, he wasn't letting you in

and the more you asked him, the more
he'd figuratively literally figuratively

curl up in the corner, like one of
these kids would, you know what I mean?

And he wouldn't, he wouldn't do that.

He just stood there with no expression
on his face sort of thing, you know,

but pressure didn't do anything to him
cause he wasn't letting anybody in.

And so, yeah, I, I feel
like when she told me that.

What they do with those kids.

It's like yeah, that's that's
mirroring and you know, you know

about mirror neurons and how all
that stuff works But you know, not

Rupert Isaacson: everyone listening
does talk to us about mirror neurons.

Warwick Schiller: No No, you I don't
know much about it except it seems to

be that you know Like if you if you're
a salesman, they'll tell you if you want

to make a sale Adopt the posture of the
person you're talking to if they fold

their arms you fold your arms if you
put your feet a certain Way put your

feet a certain way and and there's a
subconscious thing people pick up on that.

You're kind of getting them That that's
a manipulative way of doing it, you know,

you're like in the sales world, but So I
don't really know not this is you know,

this is all empiric for me to like hear
about the science afterwards But there is

something about These things called mirror
neurons that recognize when people are

mirroring you in it And I I feel like the
the whole thing behind it is it it creates

a level of connection if I'm not mistaken

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, you know often
when I'm dealing with someone who's

nonverbal, let's say they're in the saddle

I'm not trying to get
anything from him, right?

But I am providing for example
conversation but not conversation where

I want them to converse with me And the
conversation can be, I'm following what

I know they're interested in, say for
example, laminated cutouts in the trees.

But equally, I could be

simply looking where they look and
trying to mirror their emotional state.

Not if it's heightened, but
for example, if it's very calm,

then I just want to be
very calm with them.

If they're flapping and moving a lot, but
it seems to be happy, I'm more animated.

If they seem fearful, I try to be, to
project just a feeling of, I am safety,

but I can't do much more than that.

And I can trust to the horse and the
horse's motion and the nature around

us to kind of do the job, right?

I'm just really providing a way.

To do that.

But as you said, you know, what tends
to happen if, if, if I do that is a

relationship builds where at a certain
point that person will reach out.

It can take a while though.

It can take many sessions.

It's, it's might happen in that sessions.

And you were talking about mirror neurons.

I'm just looking it up so
that we can get it straight.

It says here on Dr.

Google, mirror neurons are a class of
neuron that modulate their activity.

Both when an individual executes a
specific motor act, so a movement, and

when they observe the same or similar
act performed by another individual.

I'm just thinking what,
what does that mean?

And I'm, I'm thinking about
like a healing ritual.

So if we were, if you and I went
into, we have been in a healing ritual

together, but let's say we were in
one that Involved think about actually

that's actually not a bad thing.

You and I found ourselves a
few years ago in a sweat lodge.

And we didn't really know the protocol.

We were being told a little bit what to
do, but we were observing everyone in

there was observing each other and we
could all pick up from each other's cues.

And it didn't take long before we were all
breathing in sync and chanting in sync.

And

rocking a little bit in sync.

Warwick Schiller: And what was really
interesting is one of our major

senses was not available to us.

That's true.

It was pitch dark.

We couldn't see, but there was that.

So it's not just a, it's not just
a mirror as in there's got to

be an energetic thing to it too.

Cause we ended up all doing the same
thing, but we couldn't see each other.

We could feel each other.

We could sense where everybody
was in the sweat lodge,

you know, we can hear each other's
breathing that sort of thing.

Yeah.

So it was, it was quite interesting.

And it's interesting.

You were talking about looking where
they look, you know, that seems to

be very helpful with the horses is
when they get a bit concerned, look

at what they're looking at and it's.

I think, I think there's
a couple of things to it.

One of the things is you,
as far as attunement is

you're, you're communicating.

Yes.

I'm aware that you see something
that could be a danger.

Like I noticed you noticing, but the
thing you have to do when you look at

it, it's just like you said, if mirroring
children, if they're fearful, you

have to have that, that calm presence.

So if a horse, you know, if a horse
puts their head up and looks at

something that they're concerned
about, I will look at it too.

Like I notice you notice that
thing and I see it but then I'm

projecting that calm energy like I
see it But it's not gonna hurt us.

It's

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I'm
not gonna mirror your fear

Warwick Schiller: I'm not gonna mirror
your fear, but I will look at what you're

looking at, but I will project a a Level
of or I'll project a lack of concern

about it But that's totally different than
not looking at all because not looking

at all tells them I didn't notice you
looking at it And I didn't even notice it.

And so you're communicating
your lack of awareness of

stuff, of stuff, of stuff there.

So that's, that's one of the things I
will do is, is, but I'll only do that

unless it gets their anxiety gets so far
gone that they need to move their feet.

And then I'll redirect, then I'll
redirect their thoughts so that their

minds back with their feet, you know,
what I like to call their presence.

So their mind and their body are
in the same place at the same

Rupert Isaacson: time.

Talk to me about how you do that.

Warwick Schiller: Ah, well usually
it's, you know, usually it's, this

would be if you were, if you were,
you know, if they're on line, they're

on a lead rope and I will, if they've
got to move their feet and walk off,

I'll let them walk as far as they
get to the end of the lead rope.

I have like a, you
know, 12 foot lead rope.

If they get to the end of the lead rope,
and this is where the training part comes

in, they walk off and get to where they
take the slack out of the lead rope.

But as they, as the slack comes out of
that lead rope, I usually have a little

flag, I'll As the slack comes out of the
lead rope, I'll kind of wave that flag a

bit, probably towards their flank, but I'm
not trying to move them over, I'm trying

to have them think back down along their
body, and so I'm really trying to get

their mind connected to the lead rope,
to where as when I pick up on the lead

rope, any time they feel pressure on the
lead rope, their mind follows it, I'm

not really trying to get their body to
follow it, their body follows their and I

want their mind to follow that lead rope.

So right there, I'd be, you know, they're,
they're leaving, they're heading off away

from me because their mind, their thought
was so strong, it pulled their body.

With it and when they get to the lead rope
What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna redirect

their attention back to the present So
now their mind and their body are back

in the same place at the same time, you
know No different than if someone was

experienced, you know, let's say I was
with someone who said well, you know what?

I'm like, I'm like, how you going?

Like, oh, well, I've got this really
really busy meeting tomorrow And

and I'm afraid I might mess it up.

And you know, so they're Their, their
body's in today, but their mind's

in tomorrow and they're thinking
about, you know, some presentation

they've got to do, I might say,
Hey, let's do a little exercise.

I want you to, I want you
to cast your eyes around and

name five things you can see.

And now I want you to name
four things you can hear.

And then I want you to name
three things you can feel.

And I want you to name
two things you can smell.

And then one thing you can,
one thing you can taste.

And when they do that, their mind
leaves tomorrow's presentation

and comes back to the present.

So all that, all that is right there
is I'm just, with the horses, I'm just

basically doing a little cognitive
behavior therapy thing, getting

their mind and their body back in
the same place at the same time.

But I'll only, I'll only interrupt
that if their thoughts get so strong,

their feet move and their feet move
enough to where they get to, to the end

of the, to the end of the lead rope.

Rupert Isaacson: I could see that
being a very very good exercise

with certain people in the
therapeutic writing environment to

particularly people, you know,
where there's a lot of anxiety.

Because what's, what I love about what you
just said there, there's nothing, there's

nothing essentially triggering in that.

It's just, no, it's not,

Warwick Schiller: it's
not that you're wrong.

You're not wrong.

It's not that you shouldn't be doing that.

It's just a redirect and a
redirection of their, their focus.

Cause they're very focused
on yourself when you're

Rupert Isaacson: anxious.

I

Warwick Schiller: don't
get anxious that often.

But yeah, no, it's, it's, and that's
something that, you know, my wife

teaches that one quite a bit, the,
the five, you know, she calls it

the, the five things exercise.

Yeah, it's just really good at bringing.

Where

Rupert Isaacson: did, where
did Robin get that one from?

Do you know?

Warwick Schiller: Possibly from she's
certified in something called neurofit.

Maybe it came from there.

I'm not sure.

It's, it's, it's, it's a pretty common, I
think neurofit behavior therapy, neurofit.

Yeah.

Worth looking into.

It's, I think it's a
pretty common sort of a.

You know, cognitive
behavior therapy thing.

I was, I was going to some group therapy
years ago and they were talking about

this thing that they call the half smile.

And they said, if you start to get in
your head and get a bit anxious about

something or other, do this half smile.

And what the half smile involves
is tightening up the muscles around

your mouth to where you engage the
muscles that would make a smile.

Except if someone was watching
you, they couldn't see it happen.

So it's not a smile.

It's less than a smile.

It's like a half hold versus a hold.

It's like this little
engagement of these muscles.

And I said, what is the
physiological thing?

What, what, what, what's the
physiological thing that will

make you calmer when you do that?

And these, the two therapists couldn't
tell me and I said, Is there a

physiological thing or is it such a subtle
movement You really have to focus on doing

it and you have to let go of whatever
you were worried about Whereas if it was

a full smile You can that you can just
whack on your face and not even think

about it Your mind does not have to leave
that other thing in order to do this.

You ready?

Ruid, here we go.

You know, big old cheesy grin.

You don't have to think about that.

You can think about something
else and do the cheesy grin.

Rupert Isaacson: Also, the che, the
cheesy grin could be gritting my teeth.

It's almost gritting your teeth too.

Warwick Schiller: But the other
thing is, but this half smile, you

actually have to constant because the
thing is no one can see you do it.

Right.

If, if someone can see you doing it, you
did it too big and so you've really got

to get, go within and really think of it.

So I think that's, I think a lot of
those things do that is they just,

they're exercises that take your
mind off what you're concerned about

and put it more in the present.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking
up half smiles again on Dr.

Google as with, Oh,

Warwick Schiller: is there a
thing called a half smile on Dr.

Google?

There is a thing.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
a, it's a whole thing.

And it seems to be.

The first thing that comes to us
is dialectical behavior therapy

skill, half smile technique,
engaging the facial muscles that are

associated with positive emotions.

It can help reduce feelings of stress.

I'm just wondering though what,
I might need to look into it.

To see what chemicals
are actually going on.

I wonder if it's a small
serotonin release, even.

Warwick Schiller: Yeah, well
that's, that was my question.

Is, is, is there an actual
physiological thing going on?

Or is it just, is it just something
so minutely technical that you have

to, you have to think about it?

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, it is a
serotonin release, apparently.

It is a serotonin,

Warwick Schiller: okay, there you go.

Look at that.

So imagine there's that too, but there's
also the And it relaxes your heart rate.

Rupert Isaacson: Lowers
your blood pressure.

Warwick Schiller: Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: there you go.

Warwick Schiller: The half

Rupert Isaacson: smile.

Well, you know, jaw flexions, as you
know, with horses, the, you know, the

key to the back being the front, if
the jaw is tense, where everything

is tense, same in people, right?

So frequently If I need to get people to
relax, I'll have a bunch of silly stuff

that I do which involves making stupid
sounds and being consciously stupid.

Because it just relaxes the jaw.

Because our jaws get so tight so fast.

Letting go of that sympathetic
response that we're in.

Listening to you talk, you know,
you're talking about clinic,

clinicking and workshop settings.

And where one sees changes happening
sometimes relatively quickly and in

therapy sessions, equine assisted
sessions, similar things can happen.

But one of the things that springs to
mind is, just as we were talking about

how Many horses and most people don't
get to live in the way that our organisms

are designed for anymore And you were
talking about that undirected movement

and then you said things like well horses
don't really go sideways in nature I say

actually no But they do I've seen them
like walking up the side of the fence

that way and they'll absolutely cross
their legs But they're not doing it

But that's that's

Warwick Schiller: That's, that's
anxiety and, and there's also a

human built structure in there.

It might or

Rupert Isaacson: might not be.

Well,

Warwick Schiller: I'm talking about,
someone's trying to ride a horse in

a circle to the left and the horse is
running its shoulder out to the right.

I got it.

The horse wants to go right, he's going to
go right, he's not going to go sideways.

I get it.

There's no one trying to control

Rupert Isaacson: it.

It's the no one's trying
to control it thing.

Yes.

So.

Let's take the fence away
and the horse isn't stressed.

Let's say there's just some
sort of natural barrier there.

I don't know, like rocks or.

Brush, and they're

Warwick Schiller: noticing, but
the, but their body will, their

body will be set up to do the
thing they're trying to do exactly.

Mind and their body will not be
separated, but you see someone

trying to ride a 20 meter circle
to the left and the horse's mind is

trying to drag him off to the right.

But the horse is doing a 20
meter circle left while they're

wishing that was somewhere else.

That doesn't happen in nature.

If a horse wants to be over
there, he'll go over there.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

As will a human, right?

So a natural living human will also
follow where their intentions and thoughts

are because we're hunter gatherers.

I guess that's that that's what springs to
mind from what you're saying is the really

natural way to be on a horse if one can
ever say there is a natural way to be

on a horse because obviously God didn't
Make horses to carry monkeys and monkeys

getting on horses as a monkey idea.

Okay, fine, but maybe we are God
I don't know but what I'm sure

you've noticed and you know, you
came back from the Gaucho Derby.

And what I've noticed in long journeys
on horseback that I've made, Mongolia's

one, or all of the hunting that I did
growing up, which are always kind of

eight hour days on horseback, repeatedly,
repeatedly, repeatedly, is that it's

a saying, you know, as you know, the
horse that you have in hour three is

not the horse you had in hour one, and
the horse you have by hour five is,

there's just no separation, you just are.

Yeah.

And.

whether it's in family systems,
social systems, client based systems,

healing systems, riding systems, we
just don't get the time, you know.

Let's say someone comes in and
says oh, I've got this problem.

Exactly what you're saying there They
are in that 20 meter circle, but the

horse's head is over, thoughts are over
there, shoulders falling out Therefore

there's kick and pull happening and
blah blah blah blah blah But that same

person and that same horse riding that
same circle in hour five three of a day

on horseback I would warrant that that
thing would not be happening because

there there would be that harmony of
Usually you see, if they survive together

that long, there's harmony of purpose.

Similarly, you know, in a healing
situation, in a true healing ritual,

it's hours and hours and hours, you
know, there's just time to relax into it.

When someone comes for, I'm going to
work my horse now, I've got a job, I

come home from my job, I'm going to
work my horse for an hour, and then

I'm going to go, or I'm, the person is
coming for this therapy session, they're

coming for an hour, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, or there's no time.

And I wonder how much of the stresses
that we see that become cumulative and

compounded is just that we're not ranging
across nature, you know, neither us

nor the horse together as we should be.

Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I think
people with horses, it's not so

much time Like with an example you
gave there, it's not so much time.

What people tend to do with horses
is something they will not do in

any other part of their life, which
is have a plan that's unchangeable.

And another, an analogy I like to
use is what I call milk and eggs.

So if I'm doing a clinic, I'll say,
is anybody here write a shopping list?

Someone put the hand up and
say, okay, so where do you shop?

And they might say Safeway is a
popular supermarket here in America.

And I said, okay, so you would write on
your piece of paper, Safeway, underline,

underline, and then below that you'd write
milk and eggs, and they go, yes, and I

said, okay, would you ever take that note,
that's what I'm doing today, go out to

the car, and as you go to get in the car,
you notice you've got a flat front tire,

would you consult your list, and let's see
if I've got any tire pumping on my list

today, nope, no tire pumping on my list,
I'm just going to drive to the store.

You would not do that anywhere in life.

You'd go, hang on, let me put
aside my list for a minute because

I need to address this tire.

We don't do it with cars, but
we definitely do it with horses.

People go, this is what
I'm going to do today.

I'm going to do this and this and this.

And if the horse presents something else
along the way, But being in the moment

going, Oh, I need to fix this first.

They will tend to just keep doing their
they will tend to keep doing their plan.

Whereas for me, training horses,
it's like, okay, this is what

I'm planning on doing today.

But Oh, the horse tells me
we need to work on this.

Okay.

We'll go, we'll go there.

It's just like following Rowan.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

No, totally.

Totally.

You know what I

Warwick Schiller: mean?

Like today, Rowan and I are going,
when Rowan was young, like today,

Rowan and I are going to, we're
going to try and do this thing.

Oh, hang on.

There goes Rowan.

Okay.

Forget that.

Rowan's down the Creek looking at frogs.

Okay.

We're now looking at frogs.

Rupert Isaacson: You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And the looking at frogs is no
loss because suddenly through

the frogs, my God, the portals
open to all these other things.

Warwick Schiller: Yes.

I really think that whatever shows
up is what needs to be done right.

Right then and that's where you
kind of got to be got to be present,

you know And I imagine it's hard
in a therapeutic session with the

horses and people and whatever but
like I said, I'm not really in that

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think I think I
think that there is a real value to just

simply putting your attention there So
as you say, there are certain pressures

Because we have this follow the child
thing for example within horse boy we talk

to parents Or caregivers before they come
and say we're going to work in this way.

So you're not going to be
surprised by the fact that it seems

chaotic when we just follow the

kid.

Rupert Isaacson: Or if the kid
doesn't want the horse that we're

doing something else or whatever.

But here is why.

Because we do understand that in
your mind you are coming here for

this thing called a therapy session
with a horse So therefore it's a lot.

It's reasonable for you to be alarmed if
you see that not happening but Therefore

because of that we will honor that and
explain in advance a lot why we work this

way from the neuroscience point of view
and tell you why It's likely to work and

if it's really not for you, okay, fine.

It's all right.

We in our experience This
is how it works better.

I think the point that you're making
you keep saying well I'm not you know

familiar with that therapy environment,
but of course really all of your

Workshops are therapy environments.

They are people come and they
find change They find that they're

liberated from constraints.

Warwick Schiller: No, I, I, I get,
they turn out that way, but, but not

the setup therapy environment where
this child is going to get on this

horse and the horse has to do what
he's got to do right now for the child.

Indeed.

Rupert Isaacson: I guess what
I've been trying to sort of.

Rope for when I, when I say, you
know, ask, asking you what, what

are the little tools you might use?

And you have actually been quite
articulate about them that you've,

you've, you've really talked about
matching steps, looking where they look.

These kinds of things are
actually not intuitive for people.

And it's really helpful to hear
them actually say, why not?

Why not actually try
looking where they look?

Why not actually try matching steps?

Why not actually try if they
turn away, turn away, you know,

so that you can show you don't.

Want something?

I think what you're touching on, which
I think which is helpful, is if there

is an Attention, you talked about where
thoughts go, if the thoughts of the say

therapeutic equine assisted practitioner
Can go towards this attainment thing, just

the thoughts Okay, they have to deliver
the session, but just the thoughts.

I would posit that it's going
to go better, wouldn't you?

Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I think
it's, it's a bit like, it's

a bit like bedside manner.

You know what I mean?

Can you imagine being an old person
in a, in some sort of a home, like an

aged care facility, and someone brings
in your food, sits a tray down, walks

out, someone comes in, dust your bed,
whatever, cleans the room, whatever.

They don't even look at you.

They don't say hello.

Like you're just an object.

Whereas, and I feel a lot of horses
are treated like objects, whereas

Whereas if you can just make that
connection and I'm not talking about

I'm not talking about any magical thing,
but just like Hey, how's it going?

I'm like, I talk to my horses like they're
people like, Hey, how's it going today?

You know?

I think that they, they know that,
you know, you know what I mean?

They, they're, they're aware
of your awareness of them.

And they're, they're aware of your
non awareness of them and, and.

How they interact with you depends
on, on how you show up, you know,

like I said about Bundy's testing
thing, you know, I think they just

like to know who they're dealing with.

And I feel like if you can.

Communicate your awareness of
them and not, not just have

them like an object in the room.

It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a,
I think, I think it's a, the outcome

can be totally different or at least
significantly different, but they

certainly feel different about, I
think horses level of consciousness

and their awareness is way more
than, than you know, most people.

Most people believe, and yeah, they
really, they basically know when you're,

they know when you're aware and they know
when you're not, you know, I had a podcast

guest a couple of years ago who was his
name's Ty Murray, was a world champion

rodeo cowboy, but he's really into the
horsemanship stuff now, and he said one

line during our podcast conversation that
I wanted to circle back to, but we got

off track and went somewhere else, but
his line was, you need to be aware of

them the moment they become aware of you.

Like you walk out the back door and your
horse is, you know, you know, six acres

away and his head pops up and looks at
you, you need to know that he noticed you.

And there seems to be an
awareness of your awareness

Rupert Isaacson: and that, and

Warwick Schiller: even before
you get anywhere near him,

that will make a difference.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Back to what you said about being seen.

Why is being seen or gotten?

Important because mammal to
mammal, it makes you feel safe.

Yeah.

I mean, if, if I feel that you are
noticing what I'm noticing and seeing

me as me, then I think there's a
chance that if there's a danger

I don't see and you do, you might
alert me to it and help me out of it.

Warwick Schiller: Yes.

I really believe that's the, that's the
underlying thing of the whole thing.

You know, I feel like horses
You know, people talk about

trust with horses and stuff.

And I feel like there's two types of
trust your horse can have about you.

The first one's pretty easy.

I trust you're not going to hurt me.

I trust you're not a danger to me.

That's very easy.

But the other one, which is, I think
quite a bit harder is I trust your

awareness enough to communicate danger.

If I don't notice it,

I

Warwick Schiller: trust you on that level.

I trust you with, with my life.

Not, not, I trust that
you're not going to kill me.

It's I trust that you are aware enough
to alert me to danger that I don't see.

S

Rupert Isaacson: that you've
got my back basically.

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller: Yes, that too.

And, and so for me, every interaction
you have with them all day, it's, it's

raising and lowering the trust meter.

Like just communicating
your awareness of things.

It's so true.

That's, yeah.

I think that's the, I think
that's the holy grail.

Rupert Isaacson: And then when,
when a relationship gets damaged

as well, it it, as you say, it's a
holy grail because it allows you.

You talked about resilience,
it allows 'em to bounce back.

Got a horse right now.

Well,

Warwick Schiller: sorry, can
I just interrupt there for

Rupert Isaacson: a second?

Yeah, go ahead.

Warwick Schiller: I, I
saw something a while ago.

A therapist actually showed me and,
and it was like this circle and

had three words around the circle.

At the top of the circle.

It said connection, and then there
was an arrow went around the circle

to the next word that said rupture.

And then there was an arrow went
around the next part of the circle

to the next word that said repair.

And then an arrow finished the
circle off, went back to connection.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Warwick Schiller: The thing about, I
always tell people, don't worry about

rupturing your connection because
When it ruptures when you notice it

ruptures and you take a make amends
and you do the repair One thing is

you're saying you notice the rupture

Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm,

Warwick Schiller: and then you take the
time and effort to do the repair and now

you're back to connection But you're not
in the same connection you were in before

because you guys have just been through

a little bit

Warwick Schiller: of trouble and
you've told them that you're aware

of the trouble and you're Quite
prepared to repair that trouble.

And I said, it's, it's just a
connection rupture repair cycle.

You know, like no, no
relationship is just connection.

It's true.

Otherwise you're not communicating
probably with each other,

but how you really feel,

Rupert Isaacson: you

Warwick Schiller: know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And relationships.

Cannot not rupture often for things that
are outside the control of whoever the

organisms are within that relationship
They can be ruptured by distance.

They can be ruptured by so many things

Equally, you know somebody can
have a bad experience on your watch

and lose a bit of trust in you

But it can be repaired and
then it's usually a stronger

relationship afterwards.

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller: Yeah, like you make a
mistake You do something stupid, somebody

else is offended, you can either ignore
it or you go, Hey, I'm really sorry.

I realized that I upset
you when I said that.

And I probably shouldn't have said that.

When you get through that repair,
they think more of you than

they did before you screwed up.

You know what I mean?

I think that's.

That's

Rupert Isaacson: let's have a

Warwick Schiller: look at

Rupert Isaacson: that.

Warwick Schiller: Just hold it down a bit.

Just hold it still.

Yeah, I, I, so, you know, I, a lot of
people when they get into this whole

connection stuff with their horses,
they want to, I don't want to ever lose

connection and that, that's the problem
is not wanting to lose connection.

Yes, it is.

It is.

It's, it's not, it's, I don't ever want
to lose, like, Oh, I might, I don't want

to do that cause I might lose connection.

If you.

Do that one thing, whatever it
is, and you lose connection and

you don't ever get it back again.

It wasn't really connected
in the first place.

It was very, it was very
superficial sort of thing.

But it's, yeah, that whole, I'm
really big on that connection

rupture repair cycle these days.

It's yeah, I, I believe that's how the
relationships grow and that connection

becomes much deeper and with horses,
it's because you're communicating

your awareness of the rupture.

Rupert Isaacson: Rupture
and repair, basically.

It's faith, right, because it, it allows
you to know that it can rupture, it

will repair, so you can have faith.

Warwick Schiller: Yeah.

And if you've ever had a lot of those,
the next time there's a rupture,

it's not the end of the world.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Cause I know we're going to
come out the other side of this.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and you've
got some skills you know what to do

to come out of the other side of it
Yeah, well, that's the other thing.

Yeah, the

Warwick Schiller: repair skills.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Well, I know it's a right about just
over the two hour mark and We may have

to rupture at this point Because I know
that you have to go and do Things today.

You are nine hours behind me.

I'll leave you soon.

So I hope that we can repair and reconnect
Would love to And go further into this.

Yeah, it's

those people who most people are
aware of you Most people are aware

of me are aware of you But for the
people who are not aware of you and

also people who want to dive deeper
into your resources on Attunement

give us the resources.

Where can they go?

Warwick Schiller: My
website warwickschiller.

com or if you want to go to
the video library it's videos.

warwickschiller.

com I have a Facebook page, I have a
Facebook group, Warwick Schiller Attuned

Horsemanship, and I have a podcast
where I first met Rupert Sheldrake.

Rupert Sheldrake, yeah, that guy too.

Rupert Isaacson.

I want him on mine.

Yeah, I want him on mine too.

And it's called The Journey on Podcast.

It's available on all Journey
all the podcast apps and it's,

yeah, it's more explorations of
consciousness than anything, but yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

All right, Warwick.

Well, thank you again.

Once

Warwick Schiller: again.

Pleasure chatting with you as usual.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Till the next time.

Give my love to everyone.

Warwick Schiller: I shall.

Bye.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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