Healing Through Horses and Nature with Norunn Kogstad: Psychotherapy, Equine Welfare, and the Joy of Belonging | Ep 20 Equine Assisted World

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

We're going to Norway today.

Amazing, amazing place.

Amazing person up there, Norun Kogstad.

She is a psychotherapist who runs an
amazing, I keep saying that word, don't I?

Because it's true, place called
Lundehagen, halfway up Norway,

where horse welfare, human welfare,

psychotherapy, Equine psychotherapy,
the different worlds of equine

therapy, all come together in a
really unique nexus that I think is

uniquely Nordic, uniquely Scandinavian
in a way in the breadth of vision.

I think many of us further down
in, towards the equator, which

compared to Norway we are tend to
get a bit mired in our local view.

And I think those people up at the
top of the world the Scandinavians,

the Canadians, they often seem to have
this sort of slightly broader view.

It's like they're looking down on
us and sort of going, Oh, look at

those interesting, funny people down
there or squabbling about things.

And they seem to provide us with an
interesting example of functional society.

I think we know this is true in education.

We know this is true in healthcare.

We know this is true in just sort of
the public and private sector in general

compared to further down in Europe.

North America, etc.

So, I've always been a bit
intrigued by this, like, why are

the systems up there so functional?

And, Norrin is a very good
example of a functional system.

So, I thought we'd get her
on here to explain that, but

also, what is psychotherapy?

And what is equine psychotherapy?

What even is it as a field?

And why is it important?

And how does it relate to what the
rest of us are all doing in this

great conversation that we're having
about horses and humans and healing.

So Norun, thank you so much for coming on.

Can you tell us a bit about
who you are and what you do?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, first of
all, Rupert, thank you so much for

inviting me on to this podcast.

Well, I am Norun, I'm a
psychiatrist and psychotherapist.

And as you said, I run Lundahagen.

I've been including horses into
psychotherapy for the last, yeah,

10 to 15 years, more or less.

And I sort of been, you
know, a lifelong horse woman.

I've always been drawn to horses
wherever I were in the world.

I was always drawn to horses.

And when, when I heard.

That it's possible to include
horses into psychotherapy.

I found that very intriguing.

So I went ahead and I got to know
this hospital in Norway where they

offer specialized care, especially
for people who has experienced

overwhelming experiences like traumatic
events and they include horses.

And I I got to know the head psychologist
of that apartment and she told me

that, Well, Norin, if you want to do
this work, you have to go to the U.

S.

and do a HEAL education and then
you have to become a centered

writing instructor and get yourself
a proper psychotherapy education.

Good luck.

Quickly,

Rupert Isaacson: what is HEAL?

H E A L.

Why, and why did she
tell you to go do that?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, HEAL stands
for Human Equine Alliances for

Psychotherapy and Learning.

And it's a model developed by Lee Shambu.

She also worked together with Linda
Kohanov and some other people in the

beginning of the founding of HEAL.

And HEAL is emotion focused, body
oriented psychotherapeutic intervention,

including horses for trauma populations.

This was back in 2013 when I
did that education in the US.

And at that time, this, you know, there
was this wave of trauma informed care,

asking the questions of what happened
to you instead of what's wrong with you.

And the emergent field of neuroscience
was just opening up to the wide public.

And it was fantastic for me to come into
to that field through the HEAL model.

Norway does have its, you know,
functional competence of not being overly

enthusiastic about new, new things.

So I wouldn't say that, you know,
the new, new knowledge and the new

way of looking at relationship and
trauma is very well integrated into

the system as of yet, but especially
not, you know, 10 to 15 years ago.

So for me, that was really super exciting
and just, you know, dive into all of

this fantastic new ways of looking at
people and the body oriented perspective

from Veselvandar Kolk and, and Pat
Ogden and The Body Keeps the Score and

how, how that was opening up to so many
perspectives, both on my own personal

journey and on how to, how to work
with clients and how to open up for the

Rupert Isaacson: You say that
Norway isn't so keen on new

stuff and functional in that way.

However, in the paragraph more or
less before that, you said that

you had gone to work and learn at a
hospital which offers equine stuff.

Now, if you're listening to
that as a Brit or as a You think

hospitals with horses and farms?

That's not something you really hear.

So that's an example of what I mean
of perhaps in your perception, things

move slowly for new stuff up in Norway.

But from our point of view, looking
up at, say, that health care

system, that's not something you'd
see at all, you know, in the UK.

In in the U.

S.

probably, you might see it in a
private thing here and there, but you

certainly wouldn't see it as a sort of
state funded, state sponsored thing.

Can you just backtrack a little bit?

Why would you find horses, farms,
nature, in hospitals in Norway?

Like, what's the history of that,
and what's their logic with that?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, the history
I think is quite common for both

the, you know, continental countries
and American countries that, you

know, there was this huge movement
of moving the, the people back into

nature and farming and agriculture
and you have the therapeutic society.

Rupert Isaacson: When was this?

I don't think it's within living memory.

Norunn Kogstad: No, no, no.

That's, you know, a hundred years ago.

And, and then you have development
of the more therapeutic society

in the mid fifties maybe.

where you had the integration of, you
know, the staff and the patients living

together on the treatment facility,
working together, creating stuff

together fantastic ideas, but also
some problems of people enacting each

other's problems, difficulties, keeping
a professional framework and so on.

But I think in Norway, there has been
a very, a longstanding tradition for

keeping mental health or mental treatment
institutions in a agricultural setting.

So all the major old institutions for
mental treatment are actually old farms.

And Norway has been governed in
a sort of conservative way for

many years where, where there has
been a strong focus on science.

And academic and development of treatment
models that modalities that that would

sort of help populations and help people.

So by the beginning of the 2000, 2002,
2003, there were three hospitals in

Norway incorporating equine assisted
psychotherapy in their treatment.

And this was not based on people
liking horses, but this was

based on specialist healthcare.

That found that this population
is really hard to reach.

How can we sort of, you know,
what can we do to help them?

And I, I know that the, there are several
places in Europe who started like that

in the beginning of the two thousands.

But the, the, the specialists
have now less access to

developing and utilizing treatment
modalities that they find useful.

because it costs money.

And now the healthcare system of
Norway, as many other places, is

much more directed towards, you know,
the economy of running healthcare.

Rupert Isaacson: Is it getting privatized?

Norunn Kogstad: Not yet, but Parts
of it is getting privatized, but

they're trying to run the public
healthcare system as a private system.

So it's a very complicated,
very illogical system right now.

Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

So that's where you sort of
fill in the gap, I guess.

You're running Lunderhagen.

I've been there.

It's an extraordinary place.

I try not to keep saying amazing.

What I mean by extraordinary is that
what I've noticed when you go there is

you can look at Obviously psychotherapy,
which is human welfare your standard

of horse welfare is exceptionally high
and I want to go into that and why in

a little bit you're doing research?

There's, you know, a PhD in the
offing, you guys are scientists.

Obviously there's clinical work happening
as well, there's consultations going on.

And you're a nexus, you run these
events where different people from

different modalities can come and
present what they do and add to the

conversation of equine assisted work.

It's unusually open minded
rather than saying, okay, we do

this model or we do that model.

It's like, no, we're open to all the
models and that, as you know, that's

not terribly usual in the horse world,
let alone the equine assisted world,

although hopefully it's changing.

So you are, funnily enough,
privately filling the public space.

Sector gap a little bit there, but you're
predicated on psychotherapy and equine

assisted psychotherapy So here's the
big question I think and I know I would

be thinking of this if I was driving
listening to this podcast What the hell

is psychotherapy anyway, like what is it?

It's a word that people use,
but what the fuck is it?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, I think The the
theorist, Bruce Wample, he's done a lot of

statistical research on therapy outcome.

And he has compiled the model of the
common factors and a conceptual model.

And there is a huge debate in the
psychotherapy research field as to

common factor versus specific factors.

But I think what Bruce van Polt says is
that psychotherapy is an intervention

that aims at alleviating pain and
create psychological changes and

it's based on psychological theories
delivered by a trained therapist.

So I think sort of that way of
thinking is what I would say

maybe is most understandable.

Rupert Isaacson: A lot of, we talked
about hospitals, you're also, and I forgot

to say this in your bios, you're also a
medical doctor and so is your husband.

Do you have to be a medical doctor
in order to be a psychotherapist

in the same way that you do
to be a psychiatrist or not?

Norunn Kogstad: No, not at all.

And There is a lot of, you know,
misunderstandings about those terms.

So psychotherapy, that's, that's, you
know, that's a separate education.

In Norway, only psychiatrists and
psychologists can become certified

psychotherapists, but there is a lot of
different kind of psychotherapy trainings.

in brackets, where people learn
something about something, but

that's, you're not publicly certified
as a psychotherapist, but very few

psychologists and psychotherapists
and psychiatrists at this date are.

psychotherapist.

Rupert Isaacson: Why?

Norunn Kogstad: Because psychotherapy
education, it's a long education.

It requires a lot.

It's very costly.

It's demanding.

It's tiresome.

You even have to have your own therapy
and public funds are very scarcely

available and the public system
does not anymore see the value of

psychotherapy when offering therapy.

Rupert Isaacson: I suppose, playing
devil's advocate, if you'd gone to

medical school, as you did, and you
went through all those years, and then

you became, say, a psychiatrist, then
you gotta add all this other training.

I could see how that might
not be so attractive.

Quick question, are you
also a psychiatrist?

Or did you you are?

So you're a psychiatrist
and a psychotherapist.

Norunn Kogstad: Yes.

You're

Rupert Isaacson: scary.

Okay.

Norunn Kogstad: No.

So

Rupert Isaacson: you can section me.

But I guess you can also give me drugs.

Do you think that that's important?

Like in, for you to see the work
flourish, and I want to talk

about what it is and how it works.

And you, you mentioned some jargony
sounding words about factors and

common factors, which I have no
idea what those are, so I'm going

to need you to explain those.

But do you think that Do you think
that your medical background makes you?

What, what, what do you think it
brings that's special, but equally,

if someone didn't have that medical
background, would they be just as good?

Like, just, can you riff
on that for, for a minute?

Because I think some of us might think,
oh, well, I'm interested in that, but I'm

not gonna go to medical school and I'm
certainly not gonna be a psychiatrist.

And then, you know, so talk to us about
the what, what it's brought for you,

but also about accessibility, I guess.

Norunn Kogstad: Well, I, I, in, in
the States, there are six different

professions that are able to be
certified psychotherapist, but

with a psychotherapy training.

And for my part, I think that, you
know, to have the medical profession

as a background, is the useful
and it gives it an academic and

clinical standards to what I do.

There is, you know, research about
the therapist where you can see that

therapists that have high sort of
self not confidence, but trust or

reliability and, and low professional self
consciousness are the best therapists.

And I do think that, you know, having
a profound education does offer, you

know, a support for you to be able
to actually accept your own both

faults and, and knowledges and accept.

that you have to make decisions
and you have to sort of be

responsible for what you're doing.

And it also opens up for the humbility
and to be humble to understand that

the world is not black and white.

On yourself you know nobody and to be a
part of somebody else's journey without

coming in there with clear answers
and knowing that the world is hard

and it is difficult and it is unfair.

And still having a
framework for understanding.

and a framework for, you know,
allowing for the difficulties

and, and the injustice to open up.

Rupert Isaacson: So basically what you're
saying is you've got to be an individual

who understands the nature of ambiguity.

Yes.

Yeah.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

And, and I think that all of this can be
acquired through whatever personality and

life and so, but I do think that having a
proper education will help you on the way.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, I've just
been, while you've been talking, I've been

scanning history of psychotherapy because
I wanted to see if I was right, like, is

it a Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung thing, you
know, and I'm like, okay, yes, it seems to

be, but then it goes, we went back to some
more ancient things, guess who pops up?

As one of the fathers of ancient
psychotherapy, at least on this

website that I've been looking at.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, who?

Now, who?

Rupert Isaacson: A man called Xenophon.

Norunn Kogstad: Oh!

And so

Rupert Isaacson: Xenophon, as you
well know as many people listening

will know, is often considered
to be the father of dressage.

He's actually not, and he
never said he was, but he was

writing in 400 BC, more or less.

And he does, in fact, what is true
is he does write the first European

book on dressing the horse, but he
himself admits in that book that he

learned the whole thing in Persia.

And that, and there are indeed previous
Persian writers on the subject, but

Xenophon, as we know, was also a.

student of Socrates, friend of
Plato and is regarded as the

father of Stoic philosophy.

So it's interesting that here you are
Effectively, with talk therapy, right,

coming from perhaps ancient roots

Norunn Kogstad: of

Rupert Isaacson: a horseman, and it'd be
interesting to see how many of the other

people involved in the, in the development
of psychotherapy might have been.

I don't know if Carl Jung was
involved in horses, for example.

He might have been but talk
therapy, you don't talk to horses.

Well, you do, but you know what I mean.

The horses doesn't I guess I we've all
seen that meme of the horse sitting on

the couch to the psycho psychotherapist
or psychiatrist going, Circles, circles!

All she wants is circles!

I keep giving her circles!

What does she want?

You know.

How does talk therapy, human talk therapy,
and horses, what's the connection there?

Because you've got a nonverbal creature
and the storytelling speaking ape.

There seemed to be a bit
of a Dichotomy there.

So can you explain

Norunn Kogstad: you sort of, you
know, mentioned a little bit of

the history and the talk therapy.

Can we go back to that
for just one second?

And then we jump into the
horses in the therapy again.

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: please.

Norunn Kogstad: Because I think it's,
it's really, it's really cool to

understand some of the extremely confusing
stuff that happens through history.

Because originally the theologists
and the philosophers were the

ones talking to people, you know?

Yeah.

So talking to people that were
sick was not considered therapy or

anything close to medical profession.

And then you had the psychologist
that in the early 18th century

started investigating human behavior.

utterly uninterested in
psychological processes.

You know, they were considering only
behavioral, how, how does people work?

How do people work?

What, what are they?

And then came the area of
fraud, Freud, not fraud, Freud.

Rupert Isaacson: Now that you
could say that's a Freudian.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

Where, where people started getting
interested in people's history.

And that was a dramatic
change in the medical.

Field because in medical field that had
never been considered relevant, almost

before the era of Freud, and he's sort
of starting to explore the human psyche.

What what is the human psyche, as opposed
to To the psychologist who were only

interested in behavior and testing and
functions, you know, yeah, and then

sort of the, the medical doctors in
neurologist as Freud was a neurologist

sort of imposed on the theologist

topics where they were talking to people.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And

Norunn Kogstad: then you talk

Rupert Isaacson: to your priest.

Yeah.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

The psychologists are now the one
associated with the talk therapy.

What happened when Freud started
looking into the human psychology?

What, what is the human psyche?

How, how does it function?

How, what happened to people?

How do they talk about it?

What, what, what, what are people?

People are interesting and
they seem to be quite complex.

You know, we tried to talk about
trees as being complex, but it

seems like people are actually
even more complex and Freud's.

attribution or contribution to
the science was just astounding.

So extremely interesting.

I've read I mean, I, I've never read
about anyone, any scientist able to

propose theories like he did, and then
really getting into it, exploring it.

And if it did not fit exactly,
then he would just reject the

whole theory and start over again.

A fantastic capability of renewing
himself totally every second year.

And he was, of course, you know,
he had all kind of stuff and ideas

and things, but, but reading his,
his life is just amazing as a

interesting person, scientist, and
quite intelligent when it comes to

understanding the human, human mind.

What psychoanalysis offered was a
theory about personality development.

So theory about how we
develop our personality.

And also a theory about how the
development of the psychology

of a person can go wrong.

So a theory of the pathology
of personality development,

and then a theory of treatment.

It must be said that psychoanalysis,
you know, the talking cure, as the new,

you know, new modality for therapy.

Freud was not the greatest
advocate of the talking cure.

And he also even said that, well, he,
he might not be the best candidate for

being a talking cure therapist because
of his temper and, and so, but it's it's

a very interesting beginning for the
understanding of the human psychology.

What Freud discovered was
that the free associations The

way people talk about things.

The associations they have.

The metaphors, the symbols they use.

The dreams they come with.

How they are sort of wired together
seemed to be what was important.

in understanding the
person in front of you.

Not the words, not the stories,
sort of, you know, but the latent

content of what was being conveyed.

And he early on considered that the
countertransference, so the therapist's

emotional and practical reaction and
experience of the patient was not

relevant because he said that the
therapist should be like a blank screen.

That was, of course, a very huge mistake.

And he also rejected

Rupert Isaacson: that, but

Norunn Kogstad: he also rejected
that and he also had, you know, the

transference seemed to be the major part
of what's going on in a therapy room.

And the transference and the counter
transference has, it's sort of, what is

Rupert Isaacson: transference
and what is counter transference?

Norunn Kogstad: So transference is
what, when I, when I meet you, Rupert,

and I start talking to you, then
I will bring in all of my pictures

of, you know, my life from before.

And if I've met somebody who has the
same, you know, way of acting in many ways

that you have, I will easily impose my
previous, you know, experience into that.

But also if I'm used to meeting
wonderful men and they are really, really

abusing me, then I will interact with
you as a little bit how I've learned

to interact with men like that, you
know, so that will be my transference.

But your counter transference will be your
reaction to me back, which will include

all of my transference stuff going on.

Maybe you will meet me and we talk a
little bit and you feel really like,

Oh my God, Oh no, something's going
on here, but I can't say it from the

words, you know, there's, it just
feels like, There is something really

difficult in talking to this person.

We all experience that, you know, when
we talk to a person and all of a sudden

we feel like, oh my god, I'm so guilty
of your, something went wrong with you.

Was that my fault or what, what
happened in this room, you know, that's

the countertransference going on.

And the countertransference has, you
know, of course, developed into what

we called, or it's a huge part of what
we call the relational psychotherapy.

So when we are together, then.

what's going on inside of me
when I'm together with you.

That's the important part of
the relational psychotherapy.

And that has been a major, major
contribution when it comes to the

attachment research developing
with Volbia and his gang in the

seventies, you know, where they
talk about the early interaction

and how, how that will influence.

our lives and how we interact
with the rest of the world.

So when we talk about quickly, I

Rupert Isaacson: know this is really hard.

Explain attachment.

Norunn Kogstad: So, attachment you can
explain it from very many perspectives,

but maybe I'll, I'll try to explain it
from a simple neuro emotional perspective.

So Punxsup is a neuroscientist
and he proposes sort of this model

of the primary emotional circuit.

So we have seven primary emotions
and Punxsup's models, there's a lot

of different models of emotions, but
Punxsup's models are now widely accepted

and very useful and I think they're
very very useful clinically as well.

And he proposes fear, aggression,
anxiety, care, seeking and lust as

the main, main emotional circuit.

So in the, in the panic circuit,
What he proposes is that when a young

baby of a mammal gives out the cry
like that this, we all heard babies

or dogs or puppies or kittens or
whatever who gives out this cry.

And then the mother will react immediately
and it's an instinctive response like,

Oh my God, there is this instinct
response to that kind of infant cry.

And well, what Panksepp sees is
that when, when the anxiety in the

infant is activated and this primal
cry comes out, then there will be a

correspondent activation in the care.

care person or care individual, so
that sort of the circuit of anxiety

and the circuit of care will fit
together and belongs together.

And that's the neuroemotional way
of understanding this attachment

that we are linked together.

The

Rupert Isaacson: mammalian
caregiving system, basically.

Yes.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

And the attachment research showed that
the interaction with early care girls.

will give the print on how
you will operate in the world.

And they have four different types
of attachment models based on which

circumstances you grow up in and
the understanding of this relational

dynamics with the early caregivers
from first second of living.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, it's,
it, I think a useful piece of mentorship

that I got Which I think helps understand
this, was from spending so much time

with the Bushman, son, Khoisan Bushman,
in the Kalahari, and watching how

complete and unconditional love, and
including the kids in every single thing

that was going on, because they're on
your back, so they watch you track,

they listen to the conversations, they
see you engaging in every activity,

and then little by little they just but
also they've been cared for all the time

because you would never let your kid cry
it out in another room because as soon

as the kid cries, the hyenas go lunch.

And you would never put your kid away
from you, even in the hut, because the

hyenas will come into your heart at night.

They'll find a way and they
will absolutely take your kid

and we'll never hear them.

They'll be, you know, so.

You would never dream of
putting your kid over there.

You would put it between two
adults to keep it warm and to

protect it and so on and so on.

And that this is just how
human life has evolved.

And so a baby, if it cries and cries it
out thinking on some fundamental level, Oh

shit, the hyenas are going to come get me.

Nobody cares.

And you know, many of us have wondered how
much of our quote unquote stuff goes back

to that primal experience of just having
been made to cry it out as babies because

most people from certainly my generation.

Okay.

So let's say in that case, I perhaps
have insecure attachment, right?

Would that be correct to say?

Because I would then look for
other things to fill the hole

of not feeling attached enough.

And I've done that in
many ways in my life.

So I've done thorough research.

I like to think I put the
fun back in dysfunction.

So then let's say I am not securely
attached and I then end up in, It develops

some pathologies and I end up in front
of you with my pathology and perhaps I'm

addicted, perhaps I'm whatever I'm, you
know, and I've got something going on

and it's now impacting my life and it's
impacting the lives of others around me.

I'm in front of you and you're
a psychotherapist and this is

about talk and you're going
to now pair me up with horses.

Why?

And what's the benefit?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, first of all,
one, when we talk about the attachment

styles and we have the, the safe
attachment and the ambivalent attachment

and avoidant insecure attachment, and
then the last type, which is a complete

disorganized attachment, then what, what I

Rupert Isaacson: write.

Okay.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

But what I think is really important
here is that these are theories.

These are not clinically, these are
not psychotherapies, you know, these

are theories for therapists to sort
of make a scaffold in your head.

Rupert Isaacson: Like a
bit of a framework to work.

Yes.

Yeah.

You

Norunn Kogstad: need to have sort of
a framework understanding of what's

going on in front of me, you know.

Because that can help you to be
able to just withstand whatever

is going on in the therapy.

And I think quite a lot of, you
know, what we learn about how it's so

important to meet each other, understand
each other, listen to each other.

It comes with every kind of attachment
style you have and whatever kind of

issues or problems or emotional reactions.

they are valid, you know, so it's not
like, oh, you have an ambivalent style.

So you're kind of craving stuff.

That's just because you have an
ambivalent that it's not whatever

comes up is valid and needs to be
responded to and understood properly.

And it's the relationship to the
therapist, which is the healing part.

Of what's going on.

If we look at the attachment theory, and
I do think that what's really important

to understand in in that aspect is that

what is that relationship, you know,
because Transcribed When when you come

to me, then there needs to be some
fundamental thing going on between me

and you for you to have a relationship
with me where you can experience

what's important for you and where you
can start to explore what's going on

inside of you because we all suffer.

We all feel bad.

We all have horrible, horrible illnesses,
but to alleviate that suffering to be

able to live with yourself and your needs.

and who you actually are.

That's, that's what I think
about real psychotherapy.

It's not fixing, we can't fix history.

History is history, but we
have to fix the responses.

We have to fix the suffering to the
responses that we have in our body.

And

Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
that makes perfect sense.

Why horses?

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, and when I
include people who has experienced a

lot of, a lot of difficult things, you
know, and they have a lot of reactions

and they often have immense amount
of self hatred and shame going on.

And it takes a lot of time in an office,
even though I have a nice office.

I've built an office, which is not a
white office, but it's, it's a cozy,

I'm trying to make it, and it, I don't
think, I don't believe in the neutral

therapist, so it's my office, and this
is the place, and I want to show you that

you are important, and this is a this
should be a good place to be, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, your
dog is there too, which is

Norunn Kogstad: my dog is there and
she loves my clients and she develops

a very special bond to each client.

You know, she's, she's quite
undernourished when it comes to

care, but she can, she can manage.

So, but it takes a lot of time for
people who has had a lifetime of.

Self hatred, trouble rejections violence
to, to, to come to that space where we

can be together and trust each other.

And what I think is really needed, I
think it's really nice to, to look into

some, some of this basic understanding
of the human social interaction needs.

And by that I can, for example, polyvagal
theory that I think can give a good,

a good way of looking at the social
engagement system that we need each other.

We need to feel contact.

We need to feel seen.

We need to feel understood.

It's not the absence of threat that
determines whether you feel safe or not.

It's the presence of connection.

These things make sense to me, you know?

And when I bring people to the horses.

People quite often, we start by just
observing the horses, talking about

what's going on, what are they doing.

And people quite often say
very quickly, you know, when

I came here, I was stressed.

When I leave, I feel relaxed.

And very quickly in that first session,
when they start observing the horses,

this very profound metaphors, symbols,
the way of looking at the world and people

comes up when we look at the horses.

I, I just did a study interviewing
youths that, and that were included

in psychotherapy with horses.

And they had some fantastic comments
about the first session with the horses.

One of them said that, you know, we
stood there, looked at the horses.

It was really freezing cold.

It was really boring.

And I felt horrible.

I didn't trust anybody.

And then by just looking at
the horses after some time,

it was actually kind of nice.

You know, I could stand there
with my pain and my emotion

and feeling bad in the group.

And all of a sudden it was okay.

And this person was quite sure that
It would be impossible for him or

her to continue in a group session
if there were no horses present.

Rupert Isaacson: Why?

Why did just the presence of the
horses make that person feel better?

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, exactly.

Why?

Rupert Isaacson: Here's the thing.

You can totally understand the dog, right?

You

Norunn Kogstad: know,

Rupert Isaacson: the dog
greets you when you come in.

The dog is very human like in its, in
its behavior and its emotional state.

Presentation we know this
is why we all have dogs.

Yeah, so I can totally see
you're feeling like shit.

You've come to your, your psychotherapist.

They've got a nice dog.

The dog greets you.

You're going to get, I guess your
word would be transference of

emotion positively from that dog.

Unconditionally, they're
just happy to see you.

Horse doesn't react that way.

Now aesthetically horses are beautiful.

This we know.

But beyond that beauty, Or
is the beauty part of it?

What, what's going on, do you
think, before we even get into

how we're working with that horse?

Why does the mere presence of a
horse help in this way, do you think?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, I'd love
to get into the academics of it,

but let's do that afterwards.

What these young people say, they are,
I mean, it's amazing what they say.

They, they have huge
problems, huge problems.

And they say, well, you know,
the horse, it's not like a dog.

They won't come over and, you know,
please you in any way, but they

just require you to be who you are.

And that's kind of
uncommon, one of them said.

Isn't that amazing?

The horse just requires
you to be who you are?

I mean That's really insane.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, and what's
interesting about that is that

that's also a perception, right?

Because we actually know if we work
with horses, that horses require us

to not be who we are in certain ways.

Like if I'm hungry, the horse
requires me not to eat it, you know,

or to override my hunting instinct.

Or if I'm afraid of the horse,
it's definitely helpful for me to.

engage in some kind of masking
so I don't transfer my Distress

to the horse and the horse.

Oh shit.

What's going on?

Why is this person afraid?

Yeah that so what's interesting is that
you know, you hear a lot of people saying

horses Accept you for who you are and
I don't know if it's true or not true

I think it that that statement raises
as many questions as it does things.

However, I think what is true is
it makes people feel that way.

And if horses seem to make people
feel that way, and So that begs,

you know, another rather interesting
question is why, why do horses

make people feel so accepted?

Why do horses make people feel
that the horse only requires

them to be who they are?

What do you think is, causes
somebody to interpret that?

And it's a positive thing, but whether
it's accurate or not, if it's healing,

hey, we're going to go with it.

But why, why do you think they,
they come to this conclusion?

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, I'm really,
really, really intrigued by that as well.

And I tried to look at it from, you know,
the perspective of their experience,

how they describe the interaction.

They immediately, most of them
immediately say something about one

of the horses being similar to them or
special to them, or something goes on

in them relationally towards one horse.

So there seemed to be some sort
of immediate, you know, attraction

towards the horses in a way.

Rupert Isaacson: Almost
allegorical immediately.

Yeah.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But why?

What's going on in the
human psyche with that?

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

I think that's amazing.

I mean, from an academic side, what I,
what I'm thinking and that what we are

looking into from the videos that we're
doing is that, you know, this ability

of the horse to notice and be aware
of so many things in its surroundings

at once seems to be magic for people.

So does a dog not

Rupert Isaacson: do that too?

It doesn't

Norunn Kogstad: seem like that.

It seems like horses are able to respond
and notice more things in the surrounding

without physically and acting towards it.

So it seems like, well my theory, I
don't know, well my theory is that

when people come in with some sort of
physical sensation and they're being

responded to without being overwhelmed
with, you know, huggings and licking

or barking or whatever, but just small,
small, small, like now, when I said that

you started nodding your head, it's a
very small thing, but I felt seen and

understood sort of, it feels comfortable.

It feels like you're listening to me.

It feels like you understand
what I'm talking about.

It feels really good.

If you would sort of just think
about something else, chewing

some food, get going away from the
picture, you know, I would feel like.

Hello.

Am I, you know, getting through here?

And this feeling of these micro things
that you're doing right now, the way

you blinked right now, it was like,
you were like, yeah, you know, it

feels like you're conveying a lot
of messages that my body immediately

responds to, even through the screen.

I think that's quite much more potent
and powerful when we're in the same

room, but even through the screen, I
can feel this sort of understanding

and connection and interest, you
know, and that does something to me.

I think it does more to my physiology
when we're in the same room, but

still through the screen, it does
quite a lot of things to me, like when

we're done research on physiologic
or the physiology behind regulation.

And you look at infants as we know
something about that when babies

have not been touched or cared for,
they will die before the age of four.

But we also know that, you know, when
twins are born, their regulation of

heart rate blood pressure hormones.

And so that's more, more
or less a hundred percent.

Relate

Rupert Isaacson: related to

Norunn Kogstad: the dependent on,
yeah, another living being, the

twin and infants are very highly
dependent on the physiologically

regulation of another living being

Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

Norunn Kogstad: And so we continue
when we grow up, we tend to think

that we're grown up, so we don't need
this physical regulation, but we do.

We do.

And our, I think our blood pressure,
our hormone levels, our circadian

rhythm, I think that's up to 50
percent regulation by physiological

interaction with caring others.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, with
social mammals, you know.

Yeah.

Norunn Kogstad: And you, do you know
that they figured out that men that

kisses their wives more than six
seconds when they leave every morning,

they live like four years longer.

Really?

So go kissing, you know.

Love each other.

Liliana, sorry.

That's the best idea ever.

And I think that there's
something about the kiss.

The kiss

Rupert Isaacson: has to
last for six seconds.

Norunn Kogstad: Yes, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: So not,
we're not talking pecs here.

Norunn Kogstad: No, no, no.

It has to be six seconds in one batch.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, making a note here.

Yes,

Norunn Kogstad: yes, yes.

It's important.

Do long kisses.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, right.

I might go do some research.

I'll speak to you when I'm 90 and see.

Go for it.

So there is something about

Norunn Kogstad: this

physiological regulation that goes
on between human and horses, I think.

Which seems to be of importance,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

And again, you could, you can
understand this in close quarters.

Once you get within the warmth
and you know, you probably.

You might have listened to the podcast
I did with Kansas Carradine, you know,

talking about heart math and Linda
Townsend Jones talking about heart

math and so on and the electromagnetic
resonance of, you know, hearts and

our hearts come into that, you know,
electromagnetic field of this very

powerful heart from the horse and
boom, we co regulate and get it.

Coherence in our own physiology.

This is now well studied.

There's even, I only discovered
back in 1993, there was a study at

the University of Castle here in
Germany where I live, which summary

has gone completely under the radar.

But.

Kansas Caridine turned me on
to it where they were measuring

photons being emitted from hearts
when they're thinking about love.

And she sent me a meme about this and
how far it goes and I said, Oh, yes,

gosh, if you had a horse one, you know,
you got that kind of co regulation.

Wow.

It'd be a big amplifier.

But I thought, is that real?

That sounds a bit new agey, Anna.

So I went in search of it.

I found the study.

I'll send it to you.

It's that.

And what's so weird is that study for 30,
35 years ago, and we don't know about it.

But I can get that, and obviously
you'd have to get over your fear of

horses or the unfamiliarity and is the
horse going to hurt me and da da da.

But let's say you've gotten over all
that, the horse is next to you and

you're maybe even hugging on it and
you're co regulating it, blah blah blah.

That I can get, but when the horse is
on the other end of the arena, when

the horse is just standing there in
the field, it seems to have a no less

powerful effect, even at a distance.

That is interesting to me.

What do you think about that?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, it's, it's not that
difficult to understand really, if you get

into a room of, you know, people you don't
know and everybody look really angry, and

then, you know, at the far end of that
room, one person turns towards you, smiles

and says, Hi Aru, I'm gonna help you.

I'm here.

What does that do to your physiology?

Oh sure, but

Rupert Isaacson: a horse doesn't
do that, a horse is just a horse.

Well,

Norunn Kogstad: maybe the horse
actually does that, you know,

with the miniature signals.

When I have people here doing the
horse in therapy courses, I put them

out into the field to the horses and
I ask them to focus on one horse on

a distance and just notice whatever
that horse is doing on a distance.

And that can be, you know, a hundred,
200 meters away, just making note of what

that one horse, what that horse is doing.

And when they come back,
they are so filled with

connection with that one horse.

Because what I do hope that we find and
what I observe clinically, but this is not

what I've, you know, proven academically
as of yet, is that the horse, when

somebody is in its, you know, I don't
know how far, but they can see quite

far and notice quite far, then they
will immediately be able to respond to

the small, small, small signals of that
person just by a flicker of their eye.

Which, you know, physiologically,
in that person, will make a

response, I'm being responded to.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Talk.

So, talk therapy, observation
of horses, I mean, you might be

talking a bit, but obviously now
you're talking about the horse.

You've also talked about your office,
which is presumably more talking like

we're talking now, you're seated,
you're sitting across from each other.

So can you describe to me an
equine psychotherapy session?

I arrive.

Do I first come to your
office and talk to you there?

And then we go and we interact with
the horses and then we come back into

your office afterwards and we talk
again about what our experience was?

Or does it play out differently?

Norunn Kogstad: We have
a pre evaluation talk.

Everybody who contacts us is invited
to come to my office to have, you

know, a 45 minute talk where we're
talking about what we're doing, What

they're looking for, expectations,
could this be a fit, you know,

should we go ahead and work together?

And then it depends a little bit
on the background, but usually I'll

offer like one or two evaluation
sessions where we if we need to do

some diagnostic or if we need to do
some formal stuff, we'll do that.

And then we will go to the horses.

When we do the horse sessions,
we meet out at the indoor arena

where we have on a sitting area.

We meet there.

We talk about sort of.

topic of today.

What's going on?

And it depends.

Some, some people have
sort of a treatment plan.

Some people are in a long process
oriented therapy where it's more

in depth experience of what's going
on in that day, per day, per day.

When a longer treatment plan,
which is not that concrete groups,

often we either have open groups
or we are closed to closed groups.

So the open groups is a more
psychoeducative group where we go

through specific topics related to
that populations and closed groups.

There's a process group where we
start the first day by setting

sort of the goals and the thoughts
and expectations in the group.

And then we go to the
horses, the open groups, more

psychoeducational teaching groups.

We choose the horses the
process groups, the patients.

Choose the horses, we bring the horses to
the indoor arena, we let the horses free,

and we start observing the horses and
allowing them to do whatever they need.

And when we have younger clients
or more disorganized clients, then

we do more structured activities,
and we have a shorter period

of, unstructured observations.

We do minor observations where
we communicate together like,

Oh look, there's movements.

What's going on over there?

Who of these horses would you
have been if you were a horse?

And then straight to greeting the horse.

When people are longer into their
therapy, they can spend almost a whole

session just observing the horses.

Having metaphors, thoughts,
projections, thinkings, looking

how things play out, requires
quite a lot of patience, calmness,

and stability inside of yourself.

And it needs to be experienced
as meaningful and interesting

and sort of powerful.

I know in some trauma centers, they
only do observing of horses, but maybe

only five minutes, and then spend
the rest of the week working with

sort of ideas, thoughts, projections,
fantasize, associations, and so

that came up from just that Brief
observational interaction with horses.

And then after the horse session, when we
end the session with the horses, then I

will sort of say, okay, we are approaching
the end of the session for today.

Let's bring the horses out.

And then usually we have like a very
short closing circuit by the end.

anything in particular that came up
that, you know, people would like

to say about today or something.

And then we allow as much as possible
to be brought into the next session.

And then we bring up the next
session, what happened in the last

session, if it comes up naturally.

Rupert Isaacson: If they're
coming to you, is it like they

do 12 sessions or they do 25?

In groups,

Norunn Kogstad: groups are six sessions.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Norunn Kogstad: And individual
patients are, yeah, different,

come totally different on what,
what, what the question is.

Is there sort of an

Rupert Isaacson: average?

What did you say?

Is there sort of an average where
you sort of see this profound change

happen by a certain time and then the
point where you feel, or they feel.

Okay, they sort of don't need to come
anymore or do people come indefinitely?

Norunn Kogstad: I have some patients
combined office therapy and horse

therapy for years, for many, many
years where we have both the severe

pathology, but also our continuing,
you know, self development quest.

And also some people that comes in for
supervision around the, their relationship

and interaction with their horse.

But I'd say that the major part
of the individual clients I

have is from six to 12 months.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

And what happens at the
end of that 12 months?

Do they feel like, Hey, I feel better.

And you give them a certificate
of betterness and off they go.

Or how, how does the process of
kind of deciding, you know, I'm

okay to move on with the next
phase of my life sort of happen?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, usually they
buy a batch of 10, 10 sessions.

And then sort of, we, we make a
plan for the 10 sessions and then

we have an evaluation and we talk
about where we are in the process.

And then we talk about, you know,
let's do 10 more sessions and we

have an indefinite period of time.

Or we talk about, I think maybe one
period of 10 sessions could be okay.

Now that would be good.

And then throughout those 10
sessions, we will talk about, you

know, this is going to be an ending.

How is that affecting you?

What does that mean to you?

What's going to happen further on?

And how is this process working for you?

Rupert Isaacson: See, I would
imagine that I've been to

Lundakarngen obviously a few times.

It's fabulously physically beautiful.

You're on this mountain
overlooking this lake.

Your horses are lovely.

And I want to go into your, your life.

Horse welfare and horse care, why
they look so good in a minute.

The vibe is just gorgeous.

It's this old Scandinavian
farm, beautiful old farmhouse.

So, there must be some sort of grief
when people feel they're going to

leave the relationship with you, the
relationship with the horses, the

relationship with the place itself.

How do you mitigate that so that
they don't then, you know, fall

into some sort of pathology from
the grief of just not being able

to hang out at Lunderhagen anymore?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, you know, I do
work quite a lot with patients who has

severe symptomatology on different levels.

And most of my patient has been in
many, many therapy, whatever kind of

things before, and they bring along
with them major amounts of rejections,

disappointments anger, grief and,
and we, we almost always start by

working with that quite immediately.

And for many patients, you know,
the first half year is about

how to cope with, because every
ending is going to reactivate.

early rejections, right?

Losses and griefs, you know, and then
we really need to get, get to that

before we can really get to the process.

And then we can start working on
the ending as its own process.

For many patients and I rarely spend less
than three months working on unending.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay What is the you
can't even say reoffending rate or re?

pathology rate or

not falling back down into the hole
right once people have have gone

through whatever their What is right
for them number of sessions is with you?

I'm thinking about Some research from
the University of Bournemouth, which

I think it was the horse course they
did into the horse course in The

UK who are interesting people and
we've got to have them on the show

Where they had looked at domestic
violence a domestic violence

intervention with horses and had found
that there was still a 50% decrease

in the violence a year after the e
equine intervention had finished,

which is an astonishing, you know.

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So for you, what
do you pick up data on that as well?

Like what's the, the after
effects once people have gone

through their lunda, Hargan?

Norunn Kogstad: I don't have data on that,
but the, my clinical experience is that.

the, the, what would you call it?

The patients that decide for
themselves for how long they want

and who can be a part of making
the treatment plan and endings.

They, they rarely come back.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you get to, do you
have any way, has there been follow up,

you know, even if it's unofficial where
you kind of keep a bit of tabs on people?

Yeah, well,

Norunn Kogstad: they can recontact me.

Rupert Isaacson: Say that again.

Norunn Kogstad: They can re contact me.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So

Norunn Kogstad: we have the
agreement that you know within so

and so long You can re contact me
and you can always be re referred.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so they always
have the the idea that the door is open

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, while while
patients that have a limited amount

of time even because either because
they're government if Governmentally

funded or if they're from an
institution, I'd say that the relapse

rate there is You Yeah, I don't know.

Pretty high.

Rupert Isaacson: What's, what's the, I
mean that's very honest to admit, what,

what's the What is the solution for that
if you know, okay, these people are coming

for this very set, perhaps rather minimal
period of time with me, you yourself,

just because of your own emotion,
must find that saddening to think.

Yeah, they're very likely to relapse.

The rates could be
quite high in your view.

What?

What's the best way to
mitigate that minimize that?

And how do you deal with that?

Norunn Kogstad: But, you know, I, I, I
really, I'm really, you know, strongly

thinking that I, I'm not going to
be able to fix things in six times.

I mean, that's not real, but, but,
but I find it really meaningful.

And I find that many of the clients
that come here, even for just six

times, even if they relapse, or even
if things becomes difficult, then.

Making these six times the most useful
and the most meaningful possible.

And we all agree, you know, if
you have some sort of severe.

issue, then six sessions is not going
to change a lifetime of, of things.

So we all agree on that when we start.

And we talk about that and we talk about
the ambivalence of, you know, life.

And we talk about the difficulties
and we talk about sort of, you know,

if you come in and you're a substance
use disorder patient with huge trauma

problems, criminal background, and you're
like, I just want a family and a job.

No, that's really cool.

It might take some time, you know,
so we just talk about what's, what's

real, what's reality going on.

And I think it's important to be, you
know, to be reasonable and to be sensible.

I am no magician.

I'm just here to be a part of,

Rupert Isaacson: I think what
you're putting your finger on is

that you are the, you are a good
chapter in somebody's life story.

Yes.

And if that chapter can
then inform further good

chapters, that's a good thing.

You know, I often struggle with
this with the horse boy work and,

you know, movement method work.

There are some families who we worked
with for years and we saw amazing

outcomes or even short times we saw
amazing outcomes and other families

who went away and then perhaps fell
into some really difficult situations

and then your, your heart really went
out to them and thought, well, yeah.

But then some.

Now I've sort of been in the
game for upwards of 20 years.

I've seen some of those families then
recover and interestingly use the

resilience that they learned while
they were or Helped to learn while

they were with us kick in and I've
even had some people come back and

say hey look it was actually those
times at Horseboy or those times You

know another Horseboy place might not
even been ours that So when I did fall

back in that hole, I had more tools.

So I think the reason I ask that
question is I think a lot of people,

when they're getting into this world of
equine assisted stuff it can be daunting.

When you realize that despite
the miracles horses bring, those

miracles might be in the moment,
but they might or might not be.

carry over.

But at the same time, then there's
a secondary set of miracles that can

happen, where there's almost like
a gestation period or a myelination

period, where those resilience
tools that the horses gave then can

sort of resurface at a later date.

And I think That's perhaps something
that's not talked about very much.

We tend to think in terms of, you know,
six month follow ups or a year follow up.

And that actually brings me a bit
more to your personal story, because

you, you know, yourself have told
me a little bit about how you

got into this in the first place.

And none of us, or very few of
us, I think, get into this kind of

work, because we wake up at six.

You know, years old going, I want to
be an equine, you know, psychotherapist

or me going, I want to run, you
know, do this horse boy thing.

And it's not like that at all.

I, as everyone knows,
you know, fell into it.

Because my, of my son and stumbled into
something that worked and then sort of

kept doing it because why would you not?

but I think most of us have a personal
reason why and we also know that we

are ourselves the metaphors of going
of the ups and downs of life and The

consistency of horses in our lives and
nature in our lives, you know is what

Keeps us thriving, not just surviving.

Talk to us about you.

What brought you to Lunderhagen?

Take us back to your girlhood.

You've told me stories of being up on
them in the mountain with your horse

Really in the wilds as a young girl.

Why what took you there?

What are you looking for?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, you know,
I could I could talk about that.

I was always curious about nature
and I loved being with animals.

I was crazy about horses from
age of two and I came from

absolutely no horse family.

And I grew up with a single mom and she
was she had She had her own struggles and

she was working a lot and we were moving
a lot and somehow I found it really hard

to sort of fit in, adjust to my family
and to whatever place I was moving here

and there and hoping to find something
and also with extreme amount of energy.

And just the other day I was added
on Facebook, you know, this new

thing on the internet by a woman.

Who, who lived in the same city as
me when I was like, maybe 13 or 14.

And all of these memories
came back because.

She was, she's grown up to be this
beautiful, very nice, she's a politician

or advisor for politics or something.

And I looked at the pictures of
her and her friends and I realized

that, you know, I knew those girls.

I knew them when I was, you
know, 13, 14, 12, 15, whatever.

And I knew a lot of really
nice people at that time.

And then I remember that once I was out
riding, I had an Icelandic horse at that

time and we were roaming everywhere,
up in the mountains, out in the fields.

And I was out riding and I met one of the
guys in that group of people and I was

talking to him and he was really nice.

He was just being, you
know, normal, polite.

Hi, how are you doing?

Oh, nice horse, whatever.

And I remember a distinct
feeling of I can't do this.

I have to get away.

And so I said, bye bye.

And I took my horse and I rode.

And I think it was not very long
after that I moved away from home.

And I'm, I had, I knew a lot of people
in that area and they were quite nice,

you know, quite nice group of people,
but there was something inside of me.

It was not them, but it was something
inside of me that was really, upset.

And of course, throughout my
life, I've been working a lot

with what's going on in my life.

And I know that, you know, this
turbulent childhood of my mom and dad

splitting up and my mom having a lot
of work and having a lot of her own

struggles, very complicated relationship
and my dad not being present at all.

And somehow inside of me that
made some very strong feeling of

not belonging anywhere, I think.

But the stables, I always
belonged in the stables.

Wherever I could find a horse, I
would feel that I belonged somewhere.

And what I know from, you know, theory
of attachment is that it's when you

feel belonged and understood that
you start to develop the capacity

to mentalize, understand what's
going on inside of other people.

And you start to develop
the capacity for empathy.

So I think that, you know, my.

My attraction to the horses
and to the stables became

my sort of safe, safe place.

And also, you know, going back to the
psychotherapeutic literature and listening

to Bjorn or Winnicott and listening
about the The holding environment

and the, the ability to be, to be
understood and, and, um, tolerated.

I think that, you know, me growing up
in this, I think I was maybe 10 years

old when I started living in disabled.

And I literally grew up in the stable,
you know, and when I was 17, I moved

to Iceland to work with wild horses.

And then I came back to Norway and
I imported 24 horses from Iceland on

an airplane, and that went completely
crazy on the airport in Norway.

So they never ever imported horses
by plane to Norway after that.

So horses became sort of a part
of my family and my safe place

and my, my, my safe place.

my companion in life.

And yeah, that's the place where I
turn to when I'm stressed, when I have,

when there are things going on in life,
which is too difficult to deal with.

Then I just go there and I'm, I'm
lost with my animals for a while.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

You came, your mum was
not horsey, single mum.

Overwhelmed with work, her own
difficulties, dad not there.

So, okay, you find your way to stables,
but how did you end up owning a horse?

That's a more difficult thing,
and that takes a little bit

of obviously financial stuff.

How did you find, how did you
manage to put that together?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, I do think that my
mom, being overwhelmed with life, I think

she, she had some sensible, instincts.

I think she realized that, you know, if
I, if I were just in a stable, I would

be relatively safe and she could go off
to work or whatever she needed to do.

So when I was 10 or something,
she managed to buy a small pony.

It costs 500 euros, I think, or less.

And I would pay quite a lot
for the boarding of that pony,

and it was completely crazy.

Oh, I don't think I could ride him
very much because he would just run.

But we had a lot of fun nevertheless.

And we built, you know,
obstacle courses in the forest.

And I lived there with him.

And after a while I managed to sell
him and buy this Icelandic horse.

And I started working at an
early age so that I could

Rupert Isaacson: Right,

Norunn Kogstad: feed
them and care for them.

And then

Rupert Isaacson: you've talked about
disappearing off into the mountains

Norunn Kogstad: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: walked a little
bit with you in the mountains

behind your house at Lunderhagen.

It gets pretty wild pretty quick.

So Norway, we know,
it's a bit like Canada.

You get out of a certain line of
the farmland and boof, it's just

forest and mountain and lakes.

What did you find out
there in that nature?

And how was going in there on a horse
more healing than just going in on foot?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, it's, it's kind
of interesting, you know, in this

a little bit unsettled life getting
into nature and this solid concrete.

living environment felt very
meaningful and my restlessness could,

could sort of, you know, be useful.

So I managed to get a dog when I was 13.

Then I had this Icelandic horse, and
I think I was 14 the first time I

brought him into the wilderness and we
And I slept under the, under the stars

and just exploring with those two.

And those were my, my pack, you know,
we were the herd out there and he

would be, the Icelandic pony would
be even more loyal than the, the dog.

She was a German shepherd,
Norwegian moose dog mix.

So if she was hunting, then she
would be off for a couple of

weeks and then she came back.

But the pony here would come.

So whenever there was this.

area which was a little bit difficult to
to rocky or something then I would let him

loose and I will go first and I would call
him and then he would find his way over

the the wetlands or or the stony areas.

And that was, you know, what did I find?

I think, well, it's, oh, that's
really hard to say, but somehow

I found myself, you know, I was
there with my, my little herd.

And that was, you know, a place
in the world where I belonged.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, when I picture
that, I picture this younger Noren

up out there in this beautiful
wilderness with this loyal pony

and this selectively loyal dog.

The word that springs to mind is joy.

The joyful picture and you know,
to be out there, there's the moose,

there's the deer, there's the bears
and there's the trees themselves.

There's the berries, there's
the birds, there's the insects,

there's the, you know, it's nature.

Exploring joyfully, as you said, that was
a very nice thing that you said that that

was where my restlessness was useful.

And feeling useful, of
course, is feeling purpose

Norunn Kogstad: is

Rupert Isaacson: fundamental
to feeling joyful.

And we talked about what
can psychotherapy do.

If it's alleviating suffering, and it's
funny you said that as I was making a note

saying, how does this alleviate suffering?

And then he immediately started
talking about alleviating suffering.

I can absolutely see the joy having also
experienced it myself of disappearing into

the world, into nature with your horse.

And although I've done it on foot
and I've done it in canoes and

I've done it in many other ways.

And I, absolutely endorse
them all as agents of joy.

I think for those of us who are
horse people, it is never more joyful

than when we're with our horse and
connecting with our horse in that way.

When let's say I'm a patient though, and
I'm coming to you and despite the fact

that Lunderhagen is in this beautiful
setting We're in standing in an indoor

arena, or we're you know looking out
into the field We're not out there in

the wilderness the alleviating suffering.

Here's my question.

Where's the joy?

Norunn Kogstad: I

I'd say that when I bring clients to
my horses whether it's into the herd

or the horses into the indoor arena and
people get to You Interact with them,

get to know them, explore the contact.

I think what most
frequently comes up is joy.

and this spontaneity that we allow for and
encourage and this individual exploring.

We do sort of, we do quite a lot of work
at Liberty and relational work, exploring

things together with the horse, but you
also do some basic teaching that many

clients find comforting, you know, but the
teaching will always allow for individual

exploring and different solutions.

It's not, you have to keep
your horse on the right side,

holding this hand like that.

It's more, we need to have this
communication going where you can

sort of, you know, convey to the
horse that you need to move now, and

we're going to move in this direction.

And then how do we figure out a
language between the two of you, you

know, and to see some of the clients.

dancing around with the horses.

It's just amazing.

So we always say that, you know, when you
lead the horse from the stable or from

the fields into the indoor arena, then
remember that this, this horse is attached

to you now, you know, through the rope.

So you need to be really careful where
you put that horse, because it's going

to be uncomfortable for that horse.

You cannot move away if there's a
situation or another horse close to it.

And it's fantastic how people
immediately understand that.

Okay, he's attached to me.

It's not they're leading the horse,
but the horse is attached to you.

And they become so responsible so quickly.

And the other day we had a group.

And one of the guys in the
group, he was completely chaotic.

He's gonna be in court
after the therapy session.

Up and down, hysteric.

And we were thinking, oh
my god, okay, so, yeah.

Well, go pick a horse.

And he would find the horse, and before
we could talk to him, he had put the

halter on and turned the horse around
and started walking in one direction.

And the horse stepped on him.

Of course.

I mean, that happens when you're
completely chaotic around a horse.

There can easily be a human
foot under a horse foot.

He was like shocked, Oh my God,
of the pain and realization that

something is going on here and
have to interact with this animal.

And he didn't talk too much about
that, but then he went into the indoor

arena and he started doing some of the
exercises that we have been practicing,

how to communicate with this horse.

And after a while, he definitely
didn't do anything that I suggested,

he just did it completely his way.

Him and the horse, they found something
that they were doing and they were

completely in their own bubble.

And then after a while, this horse
had never participated in that kind

of therapy before, so it was a little
bit interesting to see how she would

react to being a part of that therapy.

And after a while, he would
just take off the leash.

the halter and everything, while the
others were still doing their things.

And then he would just lead his
forehead onto the forehead of the horse.

And they were standing
completely silent together.

That was a very special moment for
me because I was so happy that the

horse was allowed to participate
in a therapy session like this,

you know, and really communicating
with this but the joy on his face.

After that session, that was just,
he was completely calm in his

face and his body, and he was so
filled with, this was fantastic.

This was so much fun.

We could communicate.

We were there together.

And he had no idea that the rest
of the group were doing something

completely different, you know,
but the joy of this was extreme.

And in my interviews of the young
people, what comes out the most.

It was so cool, you know, we could
bring the horses along that road or

we could walk through the obstacle
course or, you know, it was so cool.

We could talk to each other
and communicate about which

horses we wanted to include and.

we could be together in what we're doing.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
taking a few notes,

it seems that what you, you've been
highlighting is specific components

of joy, which I would like to just go
over for the benefit of the listeners.

And I want to, Nora, and I'd
like you to give your two cents

on whether you agree with this.

So I'll pose a question.

Is joy

a component, a sort of composite?

of a certain number of components.

Because we, we, we talk about a
difference between, we have the word

happiness and we have the word joy.

And that's to some degree interchangeable,
but they're also different words.

And I think they carry a
slightly different thing.

I think we think of happiness perhaps as

a lower state and joy is
a higher state somehow.

So go back to you in the mountains.

I was picturing you in the nature, and
I was picturing the components of the

nature, the trees, the animals, the
birds, the insects, the flowers and the

picture of you and the horse and the dog.

But you said, They were my pack.

That led me to make a little note here
of a question is, which is belonging.

And is Belonging,

because with belonging, okay, I also
wrote dancing with horses, Joy, they're

attached to their horses and they're
dancing with horses and how can that

not make one joyful you'd think.

But it's belonging, Joy, and
then with belonging comes,

of course, responsibility.

You said you're attached to
that horse and how quickly they

figure a sense of responsibility.

And of course, what's responsibility
but purpose and a sort of mixture

of a purpose and achievement.

Are necessary components for joy

a sort of a happy experience?

So let's say that's being in nature
with the horse, or dancing with

the horse attached to the horse.

But then this feeling of my
pack, I and this horse, or I and

this herd of horses, I belong.

And now with that belonging comes a
responsibility, purpose and achievement,

and that elevates happiness to joy.

Is something like that going on?

Norunn Kogstad: I think you're
you put, you put so many

important components into words.

I think the word that we,
we need to include is love.

Rupert Isaacson: Love.

Speak to me of love.

Norunn Kogstad: Well, when we
talk about, I think love, And

empathy needs to be important part
of a good relationship and also

a good therapeutic relationship.

Rupert Isaacson: Someone might say, well,
okay, these people come through the door.

They don't live with you.

They're not part of your family.

And they're coming in a
professional capacity.

So.

How does love come into this?

Can you tell us that?

Norunn Kogstad: Well,

I think many of my clients, they
say when they have met the horses

once or twice, they say that it's
so crazy, you know, I feel so filled

with love when I leave from here.

And I think that in talk therapy,
what I aim at, I mean, it's really

important to work with people that
you also feel a certain match with,

because I need to care for my patients.

I need to really be in tuned into
and to, you know, activate my

empathy and my mentalization skills.

and my ability to tune into
their suffering without judgment,

without becoming, you know,
some sort of condemning figure.

And I think that's a major part of love.

And I do think that somehow people
when they meet the horses and they

can feel them physically, oxytocin,
you know, social bonding relations

being responded to, they quite easily
feel connected to, to, to love and

relationship and understanding and care.

And I think that's a huge component
and it's very empowering, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

You know, you were, you were, we
were talking perhaps 30 minutes ago

about Well, if someone is, what is
it about the presence of horses?

Is it their physical beauty?

What is it?

But I think you've hit on something
there, where I think all, all, all

beings embody love, because love
is actually what the universe is

composed of, at least I believe that.

I think, though, that horses embody
it in a way that speaks to the

human in a very particular way.

Because you say, well, why not a dog?

Dogs are full of love.

You know, they offer us love.

That's why we keep, you know,
that's why we have them, really.

These days.

It seems though that horses,
they have this thing where they

stand apart from us, as you said,
the dog comes, wants to please.

And actually we know horses
kind of want to please as

well, but it's not as obvious.

So perhaps it's this feeling of being
accepted and therefore perhaps loved

by something that's independent.

Of one and beautiful and iconic
horses are beautiful and iconic.

So it's almost like being accepted and
loved by the best looking person in the

room sort of thing, who is so glamorous
and is so interesting and is so and

wow, they've accepted me, little old
me, you know, gosh, that makes me feel

joyful and that makes me feel loved.

And whether or not that's actually
going on in the horse's brain, or

not doesn't matter in terms of the
effect that it has on the human.

Norunn Kogstad: Not only that they
feel love, but by feeling understood.

and accepted, they feel
love for the other.

And I think that's the most healing part.

Rupert Isaacson: So that brings us,
of course, to the horse themselves.

For a horse to offer well being,
a horse must have well being.

For a human to offer well being to
another human or to a horse, the human

must have well being, self care, welfare.

One of the things I've noticed
when I've come to Lunderhagen

is the horses look fabulous.

What do I mean by that?

They've got top lines they're
muscled, they are supple.

Their coats are shining.

They're happy when they
interact with each other.

I'm working with a hospital in a
country I won't disclose because the

And they have a, they have a small
equine program to a mental hospital.

And they want, they know they
need to change, but They're having

trouble figuring out how, and we're
trying to help them with that.

And it's pretty clear the horses
do not have any well being.

They're sad looking and sad acting.

Yours are not.

They look physically fabulous.

Like I say, they're muscle,
they're real athletes.

You, they come into the presence
like, Hey, yeah, what's shaking?

What do you do?

How do you?

For those people who are out there running
programs, I think everyone would like to

have horses that look and act like that.

So what's the Lunderhagen way?

Tell us, tell us your program for
your horse welfare and well being.

Norunn Kogstad: Well,
that's extraordinarily

kind of you to say, and it makes
me very happy that you say that.

Well,

for psychotherapeutic reasons, you know,
when I include horses into to therapy

I think it's really a good idea to
include horses because they are horses

and to be really clear about why we would
like to include horses instead of, you

know, dogs or camels or wheelbarrows
or, you know, instruments or something.

Which I think can be
fantastic, all of them.

And for me, the, the relational kind
of work that I do in psychotherapy,

there is You have the behavioral kind
of work and the cognitive therapies and

the interventional kind of therapies.

And then you have more of the
relational kind of work that we've been

talking about what's going on inside
of me when I'm together with you.

And how do we work with the empathy
and the mentalization capacity and

development of functional strategies
to get what you need in life.

But we also have sort
of the conflict level.

So what's going on inside of you.

What kind of defeat self defeating
sort of systems and programs and

stuff and whatever are you doing, and
I mean, I'm in both of those, I work

in the relational, you know, field
and I work in the conflict field.

And when considering relational work.

It's super important that we.

include the horses into the
relational work as well.

If I'm not treating my horses as a
sentient being, how am I going to

expect my clients to learn about
relational real work of what's going on?

Which means number one,
I need to know my horses.

I need to have people on
team who really knows horses.

I can really be open minded.

Like we talk about, you know, having the
knowledge to be really curious, having

the, being humble enough to say that we
might be wrong, we're exploring this.

And we need to sort of accept.

that something is going on here and
we don't always know what's going on

and we need to understand that each
horse is a individual on its own with

its own needs, history, background,
you know, personality, and so on.

But to strive for the most knowledge
available about horses and our horses,

we is essential for good psychotherapy.

Because when we're doing, when we're
observing horses and people are,

you know, all kinds of projections,
metaphors, thinking about what's going

on there in a group, one person can
say, look, the horses, they hate us.

They don't want to have
anything to do with us.

And another person will say, Oh,
all of those horses are so cute.

They really want to hang out with us.

One person will say that horse, he's
really, you know, very, very, Narcissistic

and disgusting and he has so many
opinions about things and another

person will say, Oh, look at that horse.

Maybe, I think maybe he has,
you know, pain somewhere.

So we immediately get so much metaphors
and so much projections and so much

thinkings about what they see, which
will immediately inform us about how

do they sort of operate in the world.

And how can I understand the way you
approach other living beings, you know,

but if I don't have the capacity to, in my
head at the same time, be a part of what

they're experiencing and silently also be
able to observe the horses for, you know,

what's going on out there, then I think
we are prone to go into the enactment of

the pathological structure of our clients.

So to provide the best practice
possible, good horse knowledge is

essential in my world when you work
in a relational kind of setting.

And that's sort of the, the main goal
for the interaction and the structure.

And when, when we work in that
world, then each horse becomes really

important and each horse physical needs.

So I think that, you know, for some
of our horses that are actual able

to go back to back in sessions for
six hours in a day, it's amazing.

It's quite demanding, but, but some
of them are really able to do that.

Then I need to provide them with a.

Surrounding in a life that makes
them able to do that because they're

my best colleagues, you know, and
then some of our horses, they can

do one, maybe two sessions a week,
if not, they're going to check out.

So we encourage our horses to say no.

We encourage our horses to opt out.

And our clients, they love that.

When they come and they choose
three horses and one of the horses

says, not today, no, thank you.

And we say, Oh, I think he
said, Nate, no, thank you today.

Let's take another one.

And they're like, Oh,
it's so fantastic to see.

He can say no.

Oh my God.

Maybe I can say no too.

That's wonderful.

So, so that's a huge major part of
how we interact with our horses,

but then it's, it's, it's hard to
do all these sessions back to back.

So they need to have
physical strength as well.

And I've learned a lot from you,
Rupert, of course, and I'm really

inspired by, by your thinking of the,
the physical needs of the horses.

We've always been sort of concerned with
physical needs of the horses, that they

need to be, you know, at the medium level
of physical strength and that their body

needs to be sort Okay, arranged, but we
have placed even more emphasis on that the

last few years and also the way of working
with them that we're always considering,

you know, what do they think about this?

How can we show them?

And what we see is, of course, that
whenever we give the horses choice and

we show them what we want, then they have
a tendency to say, yes, I'll do that.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you talk
us through the basic weekly.

Program that for mental and physical
well being that you have for your

horses because you've got a variety of
different horses you've got everything

from fancy ish warm bloods there to you
know, good working Fjords and Icelandic

ponies and minis and you got you got
all sorts there and different types

different needs and you've got some
really happy old seniors who are still

feeling pretty good in themselves.

So, but there's a common denominator
in how you're approaching how they're

living and what they're doing and
how they're worked out physically

and how they're worked out mentally.

Talk us through the living
conditions and talk us through the

physical workouts that they do.

Norunn Kogstad: So all of
our horses live in herds.

And our herds are now divided
on the basis of, you know,

their needs, nutritional needs.

We have some horses, fjords,
they don't need food.

They rock, that's

Rupert Isaacson: true, yeah.

Norunn Kogstad: Then we have some
warbloods and some ponies that need,

you know, unlimited amount of food.

So right now they're divided into two
herds of needing food, not needing food.

And then they live outdoors in
big, As big as possible areas.

Maybe it could be bigger always, but we
try to give them a variety of of areas to

explore and they have good sleeping areas.

And of course, hot water in the winter.

And so, and then all of them are trained
physically either on a treadmill or

in groundwork, dressage or out in the
forest at least three times a week.

Rupert Isaacson: When you say treadmill,
do you mean a water treadmill, like a Yes,

Norunn Kogstad: yes, we have
a rehabilitation facility

for horses on our farm.

So there's a separate program,
another person leading that program.

A horse rehab,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

Norunn Kogstad: So,

Rupert Isaacson: those are

Norunn Kogstad: our horses that
need to have some more You mentioned

Rupert Isaacson: groundwork, what
kind of, and dressage, what kind of

groundwork and dressage are they doing?

Norunn Kogstad: Well, we start
off with all of our horses doing a

basic of relational based natural
horsemanship groundwork so that they

learn, you know, the basic yields,
the basic pressure and release.

And they learn sort of, basic manners
that we really need horses to, to know.

So skills, basic skills that they need to
know and, and basic skills of how to be

mounted and to some basic desensitization
or how to deal with stress and stuff.

And then we proceed to do basic
groundwork from the now from the classical

dressage, very much inspired by youth.

From before, I've done quite a lot
of basic groundwork from classical

or academic dressage, but we
sort of upped that work a little

bit to make it a little bit more
efficient when it comes to building.

muscles and body structure really,
because the work that I've done

mostly before is fantastic for
building relaxation and suppleness.

But I think incorporating a little bit
more of the active groundwork makes can

help our horses build even more muscles.

And then, so they do that
for about three times a week.

Some of the horses they do
jumping without the rider.

So some sort of free jumping.

a couple of times a week,
especially during the winters.

In the summers, they tend to
just want to sleep when they come

into the shadow in Lindorene.

And then all of our horses
participate in some sort of

ridden lessons or instructors.

instructions and so.

We also have a kids riding school on
Thursdays, where we do lessons with kids

where they learn to interact with the
horses in a, in a more relational way.

And they communicate with the horses
with their energy and, and asking

them things in a very nice way.

And kids love it.

You know, they think it's fantastic
when I can start to stop a horse

without pulling the reins and so on.

They have a lot of fun doing
cool things and they do.

Some trails and we do some working
quotation or amount of games things

so that they get, you know, accustomed
to a lot of things going on on

them around them and with them, and
with different kind of populations.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean,
you mentioned what you're talking

about here is like a full variety
of work, and I think that this is

something which is often neglected.

People often.

We often all of us often over specialize
in many areas of our lives And I think

that can end up we can end up projecting
that onto our horses And we we know that

we actually like variety in our lives
and sense as a purpose But we often say

well I'm a this kind of rider or I'm a
that kind of groundwork and then you just

sort of endlessly do that same thing with
The horse and they get bored What I like

about what you're saying there is that is
that variety they get to live in herds.

Okay, great.

They get to live outside.

Great.

And we also know that's
not available to everybody.

So I don't want people to feel bad
if they have to keep their horses

in a public stable in boxes or what.

Then it's about making
it as good as we can.

But definitely herd structures
and living outside is, is,

you know, you have that down.

And you talked about the free jumping
as well as the classical work.

And with that, of course,
one observes a lot of joy.

Horses basically having a laugh
running around what we call crazy time.

I think that's so often neglected.

And again, the trail riding as part of
that, you know, outside exploring, brain

building, puzzle solving, going over
different types of ground and just being

out there in the, in the environment
that the organism is designed to be in.

But I, you know, I've observed your,
the way in which you bring that into

working with the clients at the same time.

And I think that's the key.

I think.

So many programs end up in a stressful
time conflict where, where am I, how am I

going to find time to condition my horses?

And I see what you've done at
Lunderhagen is you've really

figured out how to integrate.

The conditioning of the horse
into the sessions with the client.

So the horses are getting their
needs met at the same time, which

takes that time conflict out.

I know that you have to leave quite
soon and I think a lot of people

would like to learn from Lundehagen.

By the way, they're leaving quite
soon so that she can go off and be

with her research advisor for the
PhD that will soon be coming out

of Lunderhagen, so that's great.

So I don't want to keep you too much.

How do people contact you and can
they come to Lunderhagen and learn?

And I also know that you, every couple
of years, you do like a a Congress, like

a, you know, conference there overlooking
the lake with different horse people

coming in from all over the world.

Can you tell us, how
do people contact you?

How do they come and learn from you?

What do they, what do they need to know?

Norunn Kogstad: So we have a
homepage called lundahagen.

no and you are more than
welcome to contact me anytime.

The email is post at lundahagen.

no.

Just ask me if there's any questions.

Yeah, the question

Rupert Isaacson: is, you just said
that and it sounded like Norwegian.

So can you give us the website
and the, and the and the email

in dumbed down English for people
like me, what taught London in it.

Norunn Kogstad: So, the webpage is

Lundehagen,

Rupert Isaacson: L U N D E H
A G E N, Lundehagen dot N O,

Norunn Kogstad: yes, and the
mail is POST, P O S T, at

Rupert Isaacson: Lundehagen.

Norunn Kogstad: Lundiehagen.

no.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Post that.

So

Norunn Kogstad: contact me anytime.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Norunn Kogstad: And

Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.

So, so, so this conference and
coming for courses and learning?

Norunn Kogstad: Yes, we do offer courses.

We have a fundamentals for including
horses into services, and then we have

the horse in therapy certification for
the horse expert or the people, a person

on the horse, which is dealing with the
horses, which is a three level model

together with ethologist Emily Kielsen.

And then we also offer the, the
heel, both the workshop, three

day workshop and education.

And next year we'll be coming up with
the Lundahagen protocol for interventions

with, with the horses in psychotherapy.

And we, in last year, 2023, we did
the seminar on psychotherapy with

horses and a knowledge of the horse.

And in 2026, we will do the next seminar
where we're doing the attachment and

personality structure from the horse
perspective and from human perspective.

So, welcome!

Rupert Isaacson: Lots to come and learn.

And for listeners don't be worried
that it's in a foreign country.

For some reason, Scandinavian people
all learn to be bilingual really,

really early, putting us to shame.

We are lazy English speakers.

But what it means is if you're an English
speaker and you go up there, everyone

teaching you will be fully bilingual.

It's

Norunn Kogstad: going to be really hard
to learn Norwegian because everybody

is going to want to talk English.

Rupert Isaacson: And they speak
English better than we do.

So actually I can go to Norway
and learn English, which is great.

It's worth going up there.

The approach I think is
somewhat revolutionary.

I think a lot of us.

Down here have a lot to learn.

So I'm encouraging you listeners to look
into flights to Oslo because Lundehagen

is not only just a beautiful place to
hang out and find love and belonging,

but it's also a place to learn everything
from classical stuff to natural

horsemanship, to psychotherapy, to.

And

Norunn Kogstad: we hope to have
you here soon as well, Rupert.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, you know, I'll,
I'll use any excuse to come back.

It's magical there.

But thank you for creating
magic for people with horses.

Thank you for explaining to us.

Psychotherapy and equine psychotherapy.

Thank you for giving us
insights into what creates joy.

Thank you for sharing your story and
you know, I hope to have you on again.

Maybe we could go into some more
depth about some of the issues that

we could only touch on this time.

Thank you.

I'd

Norunn Kogstad: love to.

I'd love to.

Thank you so very much, Rupert.

So very much for creating this.

Rupert Isaacson: So run off
and do your research and

Norunn Kogstad: I will.

And give my love to your family.

Rupert Isaacson: I will.

And tell your research,
uh, supervisor Charlotte.

Greetings from me 'cause
she's also another genius.

Norunn Kogstad: Okay.

Thank you so much.

Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.

Take care.

Norunn Kogstad: Bye-bye.

Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

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Healing Through Horses and Nature with Norunn Kogstad: Psychotherapy, Equine Welfare, and the Joy of Belonging | Ep 20 Equine Assisted World
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