Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

We are, as always, talking to people
who are at the cutting edge of this

extraordinary field that has grown so
much in the last 5 10 years from something

on the hippie fringes to something
that's now coming into the mainstream.

And we have Alex Northover.

Alex Northover.

Works out of Cheshire in the UK and
treads the line between equine assisted

stuff, mounted stuff non mounted stuff,
working in schools, working with the

nervous system, working with the brain.

Bringing a PhD to the table with this
has been doing this for many years,

like many of us have and is only just
beginning to pop up and be recognized

because she's been a bit busy like
many people have until this point.

So if you want to, if you're interested,
if you're someone listening to this and

you're interested in how to really look
at the holistic picture the human brain,

the human nervous system, autism, physical
disabilities, ADHD, trauma, working

off the horse, working on the horse,
working with nature, working with nature.

the highest level of classical riding
working without the horse at all working

with the goat working with the chicken
and getting school refusers Through

their exams In a trailer in a farm
And sending them off to university,

you have arrived at the right place,
you have arrived at Alex Northover.

And Making Momentum, which is her
project in in Cheshire in England,

and we also will need to talk a
little bit about her wife Lenny.

Who also is a genius with nervous
system stuff away from the horse

and why that sort of combo makes
for such a perfect service.

If you are coming in as a service user, as
a client with any of these kinds of needs.

So Alex, welcome to Equine Assisted World.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

Alex Northover: Hi,
thank you for having me.

So, yeah, I'm Alex Northover.

I'm one of the directors
at Making Momentum CIC.

So we're a community interest
company, and we provide alternative

provision term time in the week for a
variety of schools and several LEAs.

We're located in Cheshire
just outside of Holmes Chapel.

We're in a really good accessible area.

position.

So we work with Cheshire East,
Cheshire West and Chester.

We've had children from Manchester,
Trafford several of the LEAs.

We're right on the border.

So, we have a lot of people coming from
a lot of different directions to us.

And we also run family play dates at the
weekend, utilize the horse boy method.

Yeah, that's us.

Rupert Isaacson: Not everyone listening
to this knows the English terminology.

What's an LEA?

Take us through all these acronyms
you just brought us through.

Alex Northover: Through at you.

So, we're a CIC, which is a
community interest company.

So that is a a, a not for profit.

It runs similar to a limited company.

But it's somewhere between a
limited company and a charity.

So we don't have full charitable status.

We don't have Governors, the way a
charity does a governance board the kind

of logistics of managing is a little bit
easier because it manages more like a

limited company, but you are committed
to reinvesting your funds into the

services of the community in some respect.

So, that's the CIC.

LEA is the local educational authority.

So, in the UK local boroughs are
responsible for managing the education

of the young people that live in
their locale, and they run the

state maintained schools, and ensure
adequate provision for everybody.

And part of that is finding, sourcing and
funding alternative provision for children

who, for whatever reason, are struggling
to manage the setting that is their name

setting, their name school, or don't
have an appropriate setting currently.

So we provide educational
services for those young people.

Rupert Isaacson: So you really,
An educational establishment.

Most people, when they think about equine
assisted stuff, they're not thinking

about getting kids through exams.

They're not thinking about someone
who is finding it difficult to go to

school, wants to go on to university
needs help with this academically, as

well as, you know, just feeling better.

It's not going to occur to many people
who want to get into the equine assisted

field, that it's even a possibility.

To become an educational
resource to this degree.

How did you get into this?

How did, how did this, how did this work?

Alex Northover: Well, that
was my background originally.

So I am a qualified teacher.

So it's Lenny, my wife we both
have QTS qualified teacher status.

So I spent the first part of my
working life as a science teacher

initially in mainstream education.

And then in the sector that is
for young people who have not

managed mainstream education.

So it's what we call pupil referral units.

So there's young people who have.

been excluded or removed
from their original settings

for a variety of reasons.

So I came from an educational
background and so did Lenny.

She was an art teacher and the
head of a very successful school

in Trafford for a long time.

So I think for me, it, it was
a very natural marriage for

what I was doing previously and
adding in the movement method.

And the approach is that
I learned from you into.

Into that provision came very naturally
and before I was running making momentum I

was using movement method in the classroom
in the pupil referral unit, but the young

people I was working with there as well

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you have this
background in education You know how to

mix Nervous system stuff and brain stuff
ie therapeutic stuff with academics.

That's something you're trained in.

It's something you're good at How
does the horse come into this?

How do you how do you how do
you help people with that?

Alex Northover: It depends really,
because being child led, it

depends really on the needs of the
person that you're working with.

So, obviously, you have the horses, as I
know, because I listen to these podcasts,

we've already had these discussions
before about regulating the nervous

system and how the horse helps to do that.

So, we use the horses within the day, both
as a regulatory tool, so everybody rides.

if they want to at some point
during the day, they always

spend some time with the horses.

That might be sensory work, it
might be grooming, it might be

groundwork, but we also use the
horses from an academic perspective.

So anything that we are learning,
we can learn from horseback or

to do with the horse as well.

So the like nutrition, we apply to the
horses physics, we apply to the horses,

mathematics, we apply to the horses.

So they're learning in the saddle
as well as Getting the regulatory

boost of being around the horses.

There's the academic learning
happening at the same time.

And we also follow the
movement method principles.

So whatever any child is interested
in, we include those things.

So we have a music therapist who comes
in and delivers a couple of hours a week.

We work with her.

One of our young people is really
interested in French at the moment.

So we're working around.

Learning some more modern foreign
languages and yeah, we just do everything

based around their interests and their
passions and their personal drives.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us a couple
of examples of if you're trying to teach a

math concept or if you're trying to teach
a French concept or a physics concept

or perhaps all three at the same time?

How are you going to, how are
you doing that with the horse?

Just give us a scenario.

Alex Northover: Okay, so that like
this things like calculations of

distance, speed and time that we do
during the crazy time activities.

So, we set up jumping lanes or lunging
the horses or moving between the poles.

We set up stopwatches, we time them,
we do the mathematics in that way.

We can also do things based
around treasure hunts.

So if we're looking for
say vocab for French.

So the young man who's interested in
French at the moment is also interested

in Pokemon, so we've got, a French
Pokemon book, and we've been doing

Rupert Isaacson: Frenchman,

Alex Northover: Frenchman, we've
been , we've been learning Pokemon

acquiring , we've been acquiring
vocab, like, you know, as, as he

moves through the space doing that.

So each individual.

Lesson or activity or concept, we're
always trying to think about how

we could embed movement in it and
how we could adapt it so that it's

as engaging as possible and as kind
of, much opportunity for movement

and regulation as possible as well.

Rupert Isaacson: So when I visited
you back in August we were.

I called it a trailer because
of the American audience, but

in English we call it a caravan.

Flora,

Alex Northover: flora caravan, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: And for the Americans
who are listening, you think trailer,

you think that's huge, big thing.

No, no, no.

An English caravan is much more modest.

It's, it's, it's, it's cozy.

It's a, it's, it's a small thing.

And English caravaning
is a, it's a culture.

And so you have this.

Lovely little caravan on your
property while we were looking

through your your place.

You said oh, yes at that table
in that caravan We've had a

couple of school refusers sitting
their GSEs at that caravan.

And for those listeners who don't
know what a GCSE is, that's the

exams that you do that decide whether
you're going to go to college or not.

They don't get you into a college,
but they decide whether you are

college material or not in the UK.

Yes,

Alex Northover: it's the,
it's the post secondary.

So, age 16, it's the formal
national exams that everybody sits.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So you've got a school refuser.

Your job is to get them into college.

How do you go from?

I'm not going to school.

I don't want to learn anything I
don't even want to come out of my room

and maybe I mean, you know indulging in
some other self destructive behaviors

to coming to you working through the
horse and being Other movement based

things and nature basis and then
ending up actually able to sit in that

Caravan and sit an exam that gets them
into college Can you talk us through

like the one two, three four of that

Alex Northover: so it's about
breaking down the barriers so the

It used to be termed school refusal.

It's normally referred to now as
emotionally based school non attendance.

So EBSNA or emotionally
based school avoidance.

Yeah.

So I think I think that while language
isn't everything, I think it is

important to recognize that what
presents as a refusal to attend is

actually Broadly a trauma response.

Very true, well put.

So, saying that they are
refusing indicates choice.

Young people are, when it becomes that
extreme and that embedded feel that unsafe

and feel unable to, it's an impossibility
for them to manage the school environment

that is their named educational setting.

I have yet to meet a young
person who doesn't want to be

successful, doesn't want to do well.

That can look like different things
for different people, but they

all have ambitions and dreams.

Desires and, you know, the wish
and the will to do something.

It's just about setting them up
in an environment where those

things are accessible for them.

So I think the first thing.

Is that we look nothing like those
spaces that have been historically

traumatic for that young person and we
come with the, the expectation is, how

do we work collaboratively together
to make whatever your ambitions and

your aspirations are achievable for
you and what does that look like.

And the first thing is always.

Coming down out of that space of
anxiety, trauma, autistic burnout.

So the, the, the primary thing is always
the relationship connection and the

opportunity for regulation and getting
back into a space where your cortisol is

low, your oxytocin is up and you feel calm
and able and ready and regulated so that

you can access education in some form.

And then from there, it's all hinged onto
interests and what the young person what

their particular ambitions are and how do
we sequentially set them up for success.

So if it's, I'd really like to
work in X field, we go and look

what the equivalent college courses
are, what the entry requirements

are for those college courses.

And then we talk about how we
can get you to the place where

those things are achievable.

And because it's collaborative
and we're working together

and it's all focused around.

things that they feel are meaningful,
the barriers fall away and they

can actually attend and access and
access the work and, and do well.

So we have children coming with
zero attendance to sort of You know,

low 30 percent attendance that are
on 100 percent attendance with us.

And we have a hundred percent success
rate with post 16 transitions and sitting

those external exams in some format.

Some of them are not GCSEs.

Some of them are functional skills
or other types of qualifications,

but everybody manages to attain
something and move on to somewhere.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean, this
is incredibly impressive.

Again, can you just talk
us through some scenarios?

How does the.

the horse help with this?

Most people wouldn't be able to see a
horse bringing you into an exam space.

Alex Northover: Well, for example, when
we've had young people coming to do

formal qualifications, we might set up
the day so they can have some time with

the horses first, so they can move into
that space as regulated as possible.

We work really closely with the LEA and
with schools, and we have great support

with the schools that we work with.

We've got and, you know, we make sure
that exam entry access arrangements

are such that if people require
breaks, they're able to take them.

If they require a scribe, they're
able to have them you know, whatever

they need in order to make that
experience accessible, they get.

And because we're in a space that is.

You know, very rich in those
positive sensory triggers and

free from the negative ones.

Again, it releases that
pressure from the young person.

They're able to focus on the exam as
the difficult thing, not managing the

environment as the difficult thing.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm wondering,
just in my head as you were talking,

I'm imagining somebody sitting
in exam while they're on a horse.

Alex Northover: Well, this year, actually,
they've just changed the exam access now.

So for the first time, the
next cohort going through will

be able to listen to music.

I'm not sure how that's going to
be managed yet because I haven't

looked at the the regulations yet.

But there is an understanding, I think,
that there are things that make are

helpful and we should be providing people
with the opportunity to succeed with those

things, but helpful, whereas previously
you wouldn't have been able to do that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I'm thinking about, I'm sure you're
thinking about the exam halls that

we sat in you know, and it wasn't
a caravan in a lovely farmyard with

the ducks outside the window, you

know, let alone listening to music.

And I'm just wondering if the next step
is like, okay, you know, here you are

on the horse, here's a, here's a, you
know, we're going to have like a movable

desk on the saddle in front of you

Alex Northover: and

Rupert Isaacson: we'll keep the horse
moving for your oxytocin and have at it.

Alex Northover: It would
be nice, wouldn't it?

It would be nice.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, the
way, but the way you describe it,

it actually sounds not outside
the bounds of possibility.

And one can often be so pessimistic
about where education is going

or, you know, the kids getting
medicated and so on and so on.

But yet.

At the same time, there's places like
Making Momentum, with you, that are

the exact opposite of that, which
are coming in with movement, nature,

horses, and so on, and getting those
same kids Who perhaps otherwise might

be put on medications or whatever or
marked out as no hopers getting them

through their actual exams, which is
still the measure by which our society

Judges, you know, whether you're
successful or failing, you know failing

in Education so just listening to you
talk through that Makes me much more

hopeful than I have been of late.

So good.

Alex Northover: I'm glad I'm
glad I have inspired some hope.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, go ahead.

And I'm going to ask you my next question.

Alex Northover: I was just gonna say, I
think that that, yeah, I think everybody

there, there are Working in education
is a really difficult way to earn money,

and I don't think there's anybody there
who doesn't profoundly believe and want

to support young people to succeed and
believe in their capacity to succeed.

It's just knowledge sometimes, or
I think confidence to try things

that are a little bit left field
or a little bit outside of the box.

And you know, there's not a lot of, you
know, that space for innovation, there's

not a lot of space because everybody is
so pressed for time and so overloaded.

And, you know, I think if you're
doing something that is slightly

different from everybody else,
it can feel quite vulnerable.

But I think everybody that's there on
the ground definitely has the passion

and the drive to want to do that and
support young people, you wouldn't,

you wouldn't go and work in a school if
you didn't have that, because there's

much easier ways to generate income.

You've got to be there
because you love it.

Rupert Isaacson: Without
a doubt, you're right.

However, at the same time, you
know, one hears a lot of people

who are working within that system
saying, look, I'm burned out.

I'm ground down.

I'm, you know,

Alex Northover: I think it breaks
adults the same way it breaks children.

Rupert Isaacson: So before, before I
move on to my next sort of official

podcast questions, do Do you think
do you think things like your, your

project making momentum, are you going
to be an anomaly as the future unfolds?

Or do you think places like yours
will be more and more the norm?

Alex Northover: I think the ethos
and the values that underpin it

will be more and more the norm.

I think that spaces like us will exist
for the children who have the biggest

challenges and find school environments,
environments the most difficult.

I don't think typical school will ever
look like what we offer, but I think there

are elements of what we offer that, that
will and should be in typical schools.

Rupert Isaacson: Are you seeing, I'm
getting further and further away from my

question this year, but it's, I can't, I
can't go, not go down this rabbit hole.

Do you think that, have you, are you,
are you seeing any evidence of that?

Are you, are you seeing schools
beginning in, at least in your

area, beginning to implement?

Stuff that you are Yeah,

Alex Northover: I see, I see
people being invited into run

meditation workshops to us locally.

I see people, schools starting
to do more and more from like

a forest school perspective.

There's a very excellent independent,
small, independent school down the road

from us who has just won an award and then
their practice is very like our practice.

I see.

There's definitely a shift.

Rupert Isaacson: What's the name
of that school out of interest

in case people want to know?

Alex Northover: It's called Beach Hall.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm

Alex Northover: hmm.

And it's a really lovely, lovely school.

Very nice school.

And Yeah, they've they've, I would,
I'm not sure what the name of the

award they got was, but it's really,
it's a really lovely setting.

And I think I do see a shift
in understanding towards that.

And so many primary schools
are now including like forest

school type elements and outdoor
learning and outdoor classrooms.

I'm seeing more and more of that.

I'm also seeing schools being more
receptive to you know, I've done

training, been into schools, offered
training, offered through the teachers

unions to school practitioners
from a number of different Schools

across the sort of Northwest.

I think there is an awareness that
we are currently not meeting need.

And one of the things I really
love working about working with

these young people is that I
think that they are a barometer.

So, They let you know that they
are struggling, but that probably

means that everybody is struggling.

So, being clued in to these learners
and their experience of the physical

space of the classroom and the content
of the lesson is a really great.

They're the canaries in the mineshaft.

It's a really great way to
sort of sit back, you know.

Sit back and think what are you doing?

Well, what are your areas for improvement?

What could you change as
a classroom practitioner?

Because if they're struggling
everyone's struggling, but some

children just hide it better than others

Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you started as

the same horsey horse
obsessed girl that I was

and Here you are delivering
extraordinary things through horses

You Take us back to the beginning.

Take us back to your family.

Take us back to your mum and dad.

Take us back to how does, how does one
go from just being a, you know, standard

pony obsessed girl, person, boy, and
ending up where you've ended up because

it's unusual and it's extraordinary.

Talk us through that chronology, please.

Alex Northover: So, I and my brother
started having riding lessons at a local

riding school mobily riding school,
which unfortunately no longer exists.

But they, it was a very, I think
everybody in Cheshire went riding and

mobily riding school at some point,
it was sort of the local center.

And my mum had always loved horses
and wanted to ride as a little

girl, but hadn't really had the
financial means to ever do it.

with any kind of degree of frequency
or you know, to any great extent.

So I think when we were little, she
really wanted us to be able to have

the opportunities that she hadn't been
able to have when she was younger.

And maybe a little bit for her own
benefit too, because she would have a

lesson while we had a lesson as well.

So she got to ride as well.

And then I rode at riding schools in
the area and had, you know, really, I

was really lucky with the quality and
the standard of tuition I got from.

Both at Moberly Riding School and also by
a lovely gentleman called Joe Gates, who

I went and worked as a Saturday Girl for.

So I worked at the riding school,
got the ponies ready, and then

in return I got a What a ride.

And that's back in the days
where you could do that.

I don't know that that's
so much a thing anymore.

But and then I

Rupert Isaacson: wonder how
anyone gets their skills anymore.

Alex Northover: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just true.

And then I had my first pony when I
was about, I think I was 13 or 14 at

the Welsh Cobb and then, yeah, they've
kind of been a a fixture ever since.

Rupert Isaacson: And what did you do?

Just again, quickly for listeners
who aren't familiar with the UK

Cheshire, which is where Alex grew
up and is still operating is one of

the great horsey areas of the UK.

Partly because it's one of the areas
that has large amounts of dairy farming,

which means that there's fox hunting
that goes across big, big hedges.

So it's known.

Within the UK as a
place where people ride.

Well, they have to kind of ride well to
get across that country So talk to us

about the the types of riding you got
involved with and then how that parlayed

Into the equine assisted stuff over time.

Alex Northover: So I had when I had
the my first ponies, I did a lot

of showing and many did mountain
and moorland working hunter.

Rupert Isaacson: What does that
mean if you're not from the UK?

Alex Northover: Yeah.

So mountain and moorland
are our native ponies.

They're either up a
mountain or on the moorland.

So that's your Welsh cobs.

Your Dales, your Fells, your Highlands,
and they, yes or your, or your native.

Rupert Isaacson: Or your little
evil bastards, basically.

Alex Northover: No, lovely, lovely horses.

And Working Hunter is a showing
class where you have, I don't know

if there's an American equivalent.

You do rustic jumps but they're,
you know, It's not cross

country, they're show jumps.

So they, they will fall if you knock them.

You do a round of rustic jumps
that's supposed to simulate what

you might find in the hunting field.

So you might get water trays, you might
get brush fences to simulate a hedge,

you might have gates that you have to
jump ditches, those types of things.

And then afterwards you do a
ridden show to show your ponies

way of going and schooling.

And then they strip them down
and look at confirmation and

it's kind of a cumulative class.

You get your places awarded
off all of those elements.

So yeah, that was that's
Mountain Wall and Working Hunter.

So I did that first and then I rode in
our local riding clubs and pony clubs.

So I was also doing some dressage
and show jumping and cross country.

And then I did some eventing
and then affiliated eventing

as I got older and the horses.

Got bigger.

I joined British venting.

We did everything.

I also did like endurance riding
and La Trek, which is similar

to working equitation, but over.

A bigger space so like you do a day of
orienteering on horseback, and then you

do control of the paces so there's a
corridor that's marked out you have to

counter as slow as you can and walk as
fast as you can without breaking pace.

And then you do a series of
obstacles that are set out around.

A couple of fields and they again are
supposed to be the things that you might

meet out if you were on a, a track.

So there's steps and banks and you
have to get horses in and out of

trailers and they have to stand in
one area and you leave them and walk

away and it's supposed to show that
your horse is an obedient, capable.

track leader type of horse.

We did that and we did anything, anything
I could go to, anything I could do.

I always just wanted to learn.

I always just wanted to have fun.

I didn't do anything very well.

I'm never, I'm not
particularly competitive.

And I also suffer quite badly.

I'd suffer quite badly from from
performance anxiety as well.

So I, my worst riding, I always did.

under the eagle eye of judges, but
I just wanted to do everything.

I just wanted to spend as much
time with my horses as possible.

So if there was any, anywhere to go,
any demo to watch, anything to try,

any activity, I would always do it.

And we hunted and we did you know,
just everything, everything I could

do, pony club rallies, anything
that the riding club was offering,

any visiting trainer, any clinic.

I did, I did it all.

But yeah, we did that and then

Rupert Isaacson: believe that, but yeah,

Alex Northover: yeah, well, you
can, you can look the results up.

I promise you.

And then yeah, over time, I guess,
the horse that I still have actually

that I bought in 1996, he's 32.

Next year.

So Louie is still going and he was the
horse that I did most of that with as a

teenager and in my 20s and he actually
came away with me to university twice.

So he did my undergraduate
degree with me at Nottingham.

I did an environmental biology degree
and he also did a postgraduate diploma at

Aberystwyth that I did in Equine Science.

Rupert Isaacson: Is he going for his PhD?

Alex Northover: He, by hook or
by crook, yes, hopefully we'll

get him to the end of it, yeah.

So he's very well educated.

It's a very well educated horse
in every sense of the word.

And yeah, he just, we just did
everything, everything with him.

And had a lot of fun and met
a lot of wonderful people.

And I was very, again, very
lucky to have input from some

really great supportive trainers.

I feel very blessed to have had a
lot of people move through my life

and share their knowledge with me.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how does this
suddenly become an equine assisted gig?

This is all very much, you know,
riding, good riding, sport riding,

educational riding, learning.

Yeah, where does it
suddenly go into service?

Alex Northover: So the two things
kind of were running in parallel.

So, I guess if we kind of take a
jump forward to around, it was like

2016 2016, 2017, I was working.

I had left mainstream education because
I had become frustrated with it.

I had become frustrated with feeling like
we were sort of cramming square pegs in

round holes and it didn't feel right.

It didn't feel productive.

I wasn't enjoying it.

And exactly what you were saying before
about the adults becoming burnt out.

That's really what happened to me.

And I left my job and went to go
and work at the pupil referral

unit, which I liked better.

It was more relationship based and it
felt more nurturing and more focused

on the individual rather than this
kind of educational conveyor belt.

That is, unfortunately.

what mainstream education is often like.

And we went to, at the same time I
was working with a trainer called

Charlotte Whitlam who had recently
moved into Cheshire from Portugal.

So Charlotte is Swedish, but had come via
the Valences, the great horse trainers

in Portugal, had been working there for
a while and then had moved into the UK.

And we started having lessons with her.

And I went to a lecture demo that
she was participating in and one

of the speakers at the lecture
demo was talking about horseboy.

And it was a very odd, I had
not, I had never heard of

horseboy up until this point.

I hadn't seen the film, I hadn't read
the books, I had literally no knowledge.

But she just shared her experience.

And it was a very odd, a
very odd kind of experience.

Eureka type moments.

So the only thing I can equate it to is
if you ride, you know, when you hit the

perfect stride and everything slows down.

And just focuses and it was like all
these sort of mirrors lined up in my

mind and I had this perfect moment
of clarity and this perfect shot of

everything she was saying ran so true
with my, my background with the horses,

my own experience of being around the
horses, my own experience as a human

being, and what I felt about working
with young people and the education

system, it just made so much sense.

It was like a little bell
going off in my head.

So I came home and I looked
you up and I emailed.

And I was like, can I come?

And I did.

So I came to Texas for the summer and
did my horseboy training with you guys.

And I didn't, again, showing my ignorance.

I didn't know until I got there and
you started showing me the patterns.

I was like, Oh, I've,
I've done these before.

I didn't know the connection.

And then because it's what I
had been doing with Charlotte.

So yeah, it was, I think, I
don't know how it happened.

It was kismet.

But it was like, Oh, this is, this
is what I've, this is what all

this other stuff has happened for.

This is the preparation that what,
this is what I've been waiting for.

This is what it's been
getting me ready for.

And the universe kind of
delivered at the perfect time.

Rupert Isaacson: What was so interesting?

I remember when I first met you
and you came out to Texas and

this is quite a few years ago.

And, you know, I'm saying, okay,
this is how we train our horses.

And we've got to get, you know, collection
for the oxytocin for the communication and

calm down the nervous system and so on.

And.

You, I, I demo it and then you
take the horse and start doing, I'm

like, Oh, you've done this before.

And the level of competence
was extraordinary.

And then he said, Oh, Charlotte
Wittbom and then, okay, and now she's

been with the Valenzas Valenzas.

Well, they're my trainers, the Valenzas,
and it was a very strange moment to have

this kind of, okay, we're absolutely
coming from the same place, but what,

what prompted you to go to Charlotte?

And by the way, we, we need to
do a big ups for Charlotte here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's ace.

If anyone is listening, if you're in the
UK and you want to get proper job trained

with a horse, go to Charlotte Wittbom.

And it doesn't matter whether
it's dressage, she can take

you all the way through.

It doesn't matter if it's just
general riding or horsemanship, she

can take you all the way through.

And she's just such a nice person.

Alex Northover: Yeah, she's lovely.

Rupert Isaacson: But what's so
interesting was, why did you, because

you'd come like me, you'd come through
the hunting world, you'd come through

the jumping world, the eventing world.

And then suddenly you found yourself
in this classical riding world.

What, what, what, what made you do that?

Alex Northover: I think
it's almost inevitable.

I think if you, I think if you spend,
if, if you spend enough time with horses

doing anything and you are interested
and you're kind of approaching it from a,

a, a way of wanting to absorb and learn,
I think everybody circles back to the

classical tradition at some point because
It is the root of everything and any type

of work you're doing and, and knowing
what I know now, looking back on all of

the stuff that I had had before and it's
something I say to the people that I am

working with now, like you, maybe other
people don't explain it as explicitly,

but if you have somebody coming to
work you know, a horse behaviorist,

what's the first thing he does?

Everybody yields the quarters.

It might look slightly different, but
everybody's moving through the patterns.

Everybody's asking the
horse to cross the midline.

Everybody's building the BDNF because
that's what creates the yes brained horse.

Maybe they don't explain
it in the same way.

Maybe they aren't aware
that's what they're doing.

They just know that it works.

But if you're a tiny kid learning to
load a pony and it won't go on the

trailer, the first thing somebody
tells you to do is circle it.

move it, get it to move
it, move it away from me.

Rupert Isaacson: Specifically
get the inside hind leg

under the point of gravity.

Yeah.

Alex Northover: Exactly.

So I think if you're, if you're kind of,
interested in being better at working

horses from the ground, understanding
them better, producing them, having

them be sounder, having them be
more on your side in a way that is.

You know, collaborative and low force.

You, you were always going
to end up in that place.

I think it's kind of
unavoidable, unavoidable, really.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

You, you said three things that, that
some people may not be familiar with.

And I think it'd be helpful if you
explained, you said the patterns, you

said the BDNF, and you said the yes horse.

What are the patterns?

What is BDNF and why do patterns
and BDNF get you a yes horse?

Can you explain it?

Alex Northover: Absolutely.

It'd be my pleasure.

So, when the system that we work
with was sort of not, not designed,

but described by the Valences.

So it's the classical tradition that
everybody uses, but this is their

way of presenting the information.

They all involve initially
working the horse from the

ground in these set patterns.

So you And do it in a
variety of different ways.

You can work a horse from a cavesson on
a long line, you can work them with the

reins, but you're always asking them
to move the body in these certain set

patterns, which basically involve either
flexion or counterflection and either the

quarters moving around the shoulder or
the shoulder moving around the quarters.

And every time the horse moves away
from you, you're asking them to engage,

lift their core and step the inside
hind under the midline to produce.

Method of carriage that is the
classical idea of how a horse should

look when you are mounted on it.

It's, it's about furnishing the horse
the best way possible, producing it

the best way possible so that it can
successfully carry your weight with the

maximum amount of comfort and perform
the movement to the best of your ability.

It's abilities, you know, whatever
those movements happen to be,

any of the dressage movements.

So those are the patterns.

It's a flexion or counter flexion,
shoulders around quarters or

quarters around shoulders.

There's two

Rupert Isaacson: patterns.

Alex Northover: Yes, and you move, you
move, there's variations on two patterns.

One for the

Rupert Isaacson: inside hind leg,
one for the outside hind leg.

The outside

Alex Northover: hind leg, yeah, and inside
hind to outside and, and vice versa.

So you're, you're moving them round.

It's exactly the same thing as people,
if you're having a dressage lesson

or a flat work lesson, it's what your
trainer tells you from the ground

to do as a, as a mounted rider, but
we instill it first on the horse.

In the groundwork, so it's one
person on the ground teaching the

horse how to move what the cues mean
and how the how to move their body.

And so there's the patterns.

And then the result of that is
because of how the brain engages.

through those movement patterns,
because the horse is having to

balance and shift its weight and
move its limbs across its midline.

It triggers a set of physiological
responses within the brain.

So it engages something, a release
called something called BDNF, which is

the brain derived neurotrophic factor.

Rupert Isaacson: Brain
derived neurotrophic factor.

Alex Northover: So It means that
derived as in, its, its nearby.

Rupert Isaacson: Brian's,
Brian's brain driving,

Alex Northover: driving tractors.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: driving tractors.

The thrown, like both smart like tractors,

.
Alex Northover: It's a
growth factor essentially.

So, it, what you are doing is
producing these chemical cues in your

brain that the, the brain produces.

So brain derived.

signals that it is made within the brain.

Neurotrophic means that it
produces the growth of neurons.

So yes, so plants can be phototrophic.

So they grow towards light.

This is neurotrophic.

It's the growth of brain cells,
brain neurons, and then factor

because that's what it's doing.

That's the chemical key.

That's what it causes.

So you're generating neuroplasticity.

You're developing, learning,
you're creating new pathways.

And it's really lovely because that
doesn't only happen for the horse.

It also happens for you because
as you're moving across the ground

and moving through the patterns,
you also are crossing your midline.

You're also doing bilateral engagement
because your left hand, your right

hand, your left foot and your right
foot are all doing a hokey cokey at

different places and different times.

So it does the same thing in your brain.

And it's a really nice window into working
collaboratively with the horse, because

this is something you're doing together.

You are mirroring them,
they're mirroring you.

It forms a beautiful relationship.

And that neuroplasticity that
develops mean that this means that

the horse becomes this yes horse.

So they, they are in that brain
state where there, there's a level

of arousal that means they're
switched on, but they're calm.

So they're looking for the challenge.

They, they don't approach things.

Fearfully and it's so essential for
our horses in particular because

our sessions can look very strange.

You know, you might have a child that
comes one day and decides they want to do

something that involves, you know, waving
flags, or we had a young man who used to

come, he invented a brilliant game, which
involved lobbing space hoppers off the top

of the horse, cantering off the top of the
horse, lobbing space hoppers, like tag.

It was like dodge ball, but with
space hoppers and, you know, the

horse has to just come with you and
be accepting of these really weird

scenarios that with, that often involve.

mad things.

And it's, it, you know, there's
obviously desensitization that is

happening as well, but a lot of it is
around just that headspace where the

horse has this neuroplasticity and
wants to work with you and for you.

That's what the yes horse is.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So basically you're talking about
growing a horse in your brain.

And growing a monkey, a human, a new
brain, while working with that horse,

both of them crossing the midline the
whole time, getting the speed ANF thing.

How does that then help the person, the
kid, the adult, who might be the client,

the service user, who's on, on board
with that horse or working that horse

on the ground in a therapeutic way?

How, how do they get neuroplasticity
through that same thing?

Alex Northover: Well, the same,
so the same kind of, because

we're all mammals, right?

So we have the same pathways,
we have the same basic kind

of underlying neurobiology.

So, in the same way as the person on the
ground is engaging the vestibular system

and balancing and you know, receiving all
that BDNF and engaging neuroplasticity and

switching on all of those neurons on those
new pathways, the same thing has happened

to the person that's mounted because
they're balancing on the horse that's

moving dynamically through three phases.

Sorry through three planes.

So they're moving forward through space.

Rupert Isaacson: Three dimensions.

Alex Northover: Yeah, they're moving.

And as, as they're moving that
they move, there's a, the swing

of the call left to right.

So you're going that way as well.

And then you're also going
up and down in space.

So you're kind of being
moved through space.

forward, sideways and up
and down at the same time.

So you're getting a lot on

Rupert Isaacson: top of one of

Alex Northover: the other person on top.

Yeah.

So you're you know, getting a big
hit of, of movement all the time of

regulatory movement all the time.

And it engages the same
systems in the brain.

So you're getting the BDNF
for the person as well.

And it's also producing these, great
experiences that are just really good fun.

Like we just laugh.

We just, there's just, it's just constant
giggles and laughing and singing and joy.

It's just a lovely space to be in that
feels very different from anything else.

And because they can
do things on the horse.

That they maybe wouldn't be able to
do independently and because they

have that feeling of like autonomy
and control, like, we want to go here.

That's where we're going.

They get to decide what games
they're going to play, how

it's going to be set up.

And, you know, that creates a huge sense
of empowerment and just great feeling

for the young person who probably
doesn't have a lot of autonomy and

choice in other parts of their lives.

Rupert Isaacson: You
just used the word joy.

What makes working in this way?

particularly joyful for you.

I've seen how you work.

I've seen how joyful it is.

Why?

Alex Northover: That's
an interesting question.

Why?

Why?

I think, I think the same things that
are true for the young people we work

with are true for us as practitioners.

So I'm also in an environment
where I'm able to fully meet

my regulatory movement needs.

And I think you know, I'm sure anybody
who is listening to this podcast knows how

good it is to be around horses and how.

That you know, the Winston Churchill quote
something about the outside of a horse

that's good for an inside, the inside of a
man, you know, they, they, they're lovely.

They're just lovely beings
to, to share a space with.

And even when they're being
a bit, you know, fruity or a

bit naughty, it's still fun.

You know, I never, I have
always felt like that.

But it's,

I think it's, It feels productive.

I get a great sense of satisfaction
out of doing what we're doing.

It feels helpful.

It feels I think if you're spending
time with other people and everybody's

having fun and a good time and, you
know, everybody's feeling good about it,

there's no way for you not to get carried
along in that way because we're social

apes and we share those emotional states.

So it is, you know, it's the
whole tribe is having a good time

and we all laugh and have fun.

It's great.

Rupert Isaacson: What you're
describing there doesn't sound like

a classical dressage lesson where
normally you're being told, you

know, that's all wrong and that shit.

And it also doesn't sound much like
a sort of regular therapeutic riding

lesson where one might observe, you
know, kids being led in circles.

Maybe doing some things like posting a
letter in a letterbox or something and it

also doesn't sound much like, the normal
equine assisted thing where one might

be brought to a rampen or an arena with
some horses doing some stuff and invited

to a in a rather serious way interpret,
you know, the horses might or might not

be doing in a way that helps you reflect
on, you know, your own emotional state.

It's not that any of those three things
that I've just described, the dressage

lesson, the therapeutic riding lesson,
or the equine assisted session aren't

helpful because, and they clearly are, but

they're not necessarily joyful.

And by joyful, what I mean is You wouldn't
look at them and say, oh, that's good

crack, like, well, I want to do that
because that just looks like so much

fun, you know, you like, you might look
at it and go, Oh, that's quite serious.

I could sort of see.

Oh, you know how there might be a,
you know, a helpful thing there.

And, you know, we're all required
to be a bit reverential around

this, but what you're, what you're
describing sounds quite iconoclastic.

It sounds quite, yeah.

in a funny way rebellious.

How is it that you can do that and make
it feel like you're breaking the rules

while at the same time observing these
classical patterns that you talked about?

How can observing these classical patterns
help you to feel that you've broken free?

That almost sounds like a paradox.

Yeah,

Alex Northover: I, I
think, I think embracing

Rupert Isaacson: what's the, what's, yeah,

Alex Northover: Yeah, I think embracing
the chaos and you have to, I think, you

know, if you remember what the classical
patterns were originally intended to

produce, there is nothing reverential
or controlled about a battlefield or

a bullfighting because you're talking

Rupert Isaacson: about
training the horse for war.

Right.

Alex Northover: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Alex Northover: So, I mean, obviously.

We have a lot less death and
goring, but we, you know, we

have the same sort of chaos.

Hopefully we have the same sorts
of chaotic res we responding in the

moment, I think is the key thing.

So yes, that's true, but when you are
producing anything from practice into

its, implementation in the same way as
when you're coming across the hunting

field up until the hedge, or you're moving
through your cross country course, or

you're going onto your battlefield, you
know, in with your warhorse, or you're

going into a bullfighting arena, or,
and we are responding at a moment in

time, and things do not go as planned.

in those environments
run predictably to plan.

You have to, there is an element
of being responsive in the moment.

And I think that's, that's all we're
doing is just being responsive in the

moment to where the young person is
emotionally, intellectually, spiritually,

what they want to be doing in that moment.

And always with a focus of the fun, the
joy and getting that feeling of, you

know, euphoria for the young person.

I want them to leave with that feeling.

Rupert Isaacson: It's almost like we're
taking the way of training a horse to

basically harm our fellow man, which
is, but it seems to have this Feel good

by product and this neuroplasticity by
product which I guess it has to otherwise

why would the horse Change its brain
so it could go into the battlefield

and Then using that same thing to heal
your fellow man rather than harm your

fellow man That's an intriguing concept.

Can you, can you just
speak to that a little bit?

I

Alex Northover: think something
that you had said to me when and

I think you only said it once.

I've never heard you say it again,
but it really struck true to me.

When I was doing my training, you
talked about the environment and the

fact that if you think about paradise
or kind of the, you know, the, the

religious representation of what
paradise is, the garden of Eden, and

Elysium fields, all of those things,
it's nature with the danger removed.

So, you know, that that's how
you communicated that when you

were training me and I think
I think it's the same thing.

So it's the excitement
with the danger removed.

So, you know, in any moment
we're doing these things that.

sound hectic, but because of how carefully
we produce the horses and how well

staffed we are and how well managed we
are and how switched on we are there

is, you can just embrace the moment of
this kind of fantastical experience, but

there's the, the, it is done in a very
controlled way where everything is safe.

Rupert Isaacson: So exciting the
sympathetic nervous system without

it going over into the red zone.

Alex Northover: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: So
that it inspires you to.

I guess that's the
nature of fun, isn't it?

That's what fun is, right?

Yeah,

Alex Northover: it's
riding the rollercoaster.

You know, so that sensation and that
fun and the kind of, the concept of

doing something that feels extreme, but
doing it in a very safe, controlled way.

Rupert Isaacson: Now, some people
might say that word extreme or

that word exciting, that has no
place in a therapeutic environment.

Why does it work to actually have
that in a therapeutic environment?

And what makes it actually work?

Safe like what are you doing?

You've talked to us through these
patterns, but what are you doing to a

horse that makes it possible to make it
seem to the kid or the service user or the

client that things are a little bit wild?

But to actually know, you the
practitioner, they're knowing

you've got to be responsible for
keeping these kids that are coming

from an educational authority or
whatever, like, properly safe.

Alex Northover: So,

Rupert Isaacson: I

Alex Northover: think it's having
really clear communication.

With the young person with the horse with
the staff about what is happening, what

everybody's role is within a session.

So, we have a very high
staff to person ratio.

And, you know, if somebody is doing
something that involves like a game of

tag or something like that, there will be.

Members of staff who are sort of
hamming up the role of being silly and

throwing themselves around the ground,
but equally there will be people that

are sidewalking with the horse and
the rider and, and, and there as a

backup and an extra pair of hands and
maintaining and monitoring the situation.

And we always have very clear kind of
open lines of communication whereby

anybody at any point absolutely has
total permission and carte blanche

to say this doesn't feel good.

And I think we should stop and we do.

It doesn't, you know, it doesn't
really happen because of how

carefully everything is set up.

But at any point, if anybody
doesn't feel comfortable, they are

absolutely empowered to say that
and we change what we're doing.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, where we
arrived at from, from what you just,

to what you just said is if you think
back to all of the horse education and

knowledge that you've gone through in
order to know how to prepare a horse for

this job, to prepare a horse for that
job, to know how to make a horse safe and

effective in this type of show ring or
in the hunt field where things are a bit

chaotic or this or this, then adding that
classical riding component and then adding

humans that can put all this together.

adding some brain science.

Okay.

I can see how that all goes, particularly
if you have the right people and the right

horses, you know, preparing well together.

At the same time,

it sounds like you also have to be
prepared to risk a little bit the apparent

loss of control in order to gain some
sort of mental or emotional step forward.

How do you, how do you bridge that?

That, that's a tricky thing to bridge.

How do you, how do you do that?

Alex Northover: I think not being,
it's sort of releasing your own ego.

So How do you do that?

I

Rupert Isaacson: mean, I've been trying
to do that for 500 years and, yeah.

Alex Northover: I think, I
think approaching things with a

sense of curiosity and wonder.

And, you know, and, and, and seeing
what happens and understanding that

it is, it's a it's approaching it as
play as an, as experimentation and, you

know, trying things out and not having
you know, not, not having, not be too,

not being too strongly married to the
idea of your concept of how things will

work out or what should be happening.

The only thing that I want to happen
is for the young person that's.

with us to leave the space feeling
happier and more regulated than

they were when they arrived.

That's my only aim.

How we get there is dictated by
them and It, I don't mind if they

come and they don't want to have,
they don't want to ride or do

anything with the horses at all.

Sometimes sessions look like that.

And sometimes sessions are very calm and
peaceful because that's how the young

person presents their need at that time.

Sometimes we lie in the sand and
make shapes out of the clouds.

Sometimes we go for a
walk and collect flowers.

Sometimes, you know, it might
just be grooming and cuddling and

spending time with the horses.

It's a whole.

So the gamut of allowing that young
person to meet what their needs are

in that moment and being set up in
such a way that you can be responsive

to however they show up, whatever
they come with in that moment.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so I'm
a kid and I come to you and I'm

not interested in horses at all.

And I find myself being sent
there for whatever reason.

And what I'm interested in is

Deadpool or a particular
Pokemon character.

Right.

Maybe you're not interested in that.

And they really don't want to engage with
the horse, but your job is to, as you

say, leave them feeling self regulated
and, you know, as joyful as possible.

And also perhaps to teach them something.

Yeah.

So.

I arrive in my ten year old self, which
frankly I never grew out of, so, and then

I say, I communicate pretty strongly to
you, no horse, and, or Deadpool, and,

or this Pokemon, and I don't like your
ducks, and I don't like your, this poo

that's on the ground, and I don't like,
I'm all about my my keeping my running

shoes clean and I don't want to be told
anything and I arrive In your yard.

What do you do?

Alex Northover: So I would provide As much
as I could that was hinged around those

special interests that are, you know,
specific things that have been indicated

to me that a young person wants, and
it's in our intake form, we always ask

and ask what they like and try and have
as much of that available as possible.

So if you turn up and you're
not keen on the horses.

That's absolutely fine.

We won't do that at all.

You can completely dictate that.

It's no issue but there might be
like, you know, we have to find

Deadpool's limbs and put him, he,
he regrows things, right, Deadpool?

So maybe we have to go and find his
new limbs that he needs to regrow and

they'll be around the farmyard somewhere
and then maybe we've got to paint them

and put them together to like a giant
push pun, push pin puppet type thing.

And What I have found is over time,
even people who, young people who

were initially quite resistant or
a little nervous of the horses, I

think that comes from two places.

First of all, it's lack of familiarity
because horses are big and if you've

not spent a lot of time with them,
they can be quite intimidating.

And also it's a feeling of demand.

And most young people, with a little
bit of time, once they realize that

actually the no is going to be listened
to and there's no expectation, there's

no demand on my part for them to do
anything other than what they want to

do, those barriers begin to fall away.

See the horses and sort of spend time on
the yard and see other people come in and

going and the horse is being worked in the
background, that natural curiosity comes

out and eventually they will want to try.

That might look like they are just using
the horse as a transport from Like around

a treasure hunt or from point A or point
B, we, we have a nice site here with

lots of different pockets of things.

We've got a woodland and a
river and you know, we might

be just riding to get somewhere
because it's easier than walking.

The legs

Rupert Isaacson: get tired and suddenly
the horse becomes an attractive option.

Alex Northover: But equally, if, If,
like I said, if you, if you have let

go of that ego of the thing of that,
you know, the child is coming to ride,

if you don't have that as the core
principle, if the core principle is just

enjoyment and joy, it doesn't matter
to me if the child chooses not to ride.

It doesn't matter to me if they never
get on a horse, as long as they are

leaving more regulated and with a sense
of joy and, you know, accomplishment

and they've had a good time.

And it's not it, you know, it's, it's an,
it's about personal preference as well.

So it might be that this, me as a
person or a another member of staff is

not the right person for that child.

So maybe we try them with a
different member of staff.

Children usually gravitate towards the
adult whose energy they like the best,

and we tend to buddy them up in that way.

But you know, for you, you,
you pretty quickly know.

the children who, for them,
it is not the right thing.

The horses are not the right thing.

And then you have to find something else.

You have to find another way
of getting into that sort of

emotional and physiological space.

Rupert Isaacson: How
often does that happen?

Alex Northover: Rarely, very rarely.

I think The whole time we've been
doing this, I think we've only had

two children who were a hard
no and never wanted to do it.

We've had children who were slow
burners and it took a long time

and then, you know, we've also had
families who, you know, for various

reasons have moved away or, you know,
had medical challenges or whatever.

That means they've gone on to something
else, but it's unusual for, for somebody

not to, want to do it eventually.

But I think when the pressure is off
and they can do it in their own time,

that natural curiosity and that trust in
that these adults aren't going to coerce

or manipulate me into doing something
that is counter to my own interests.

So, you know, they are more willing
to try something because they know

that they can say, no, thank you.

I've had enough or I want to stop now
and not have an agenda pushed because

there isn't an agenda, doesn't matter.

Okay, that's

Rupert Isaacson: the kid.

Now, what if a teacher or a,
someone brings the kids out from

a local educational authority

or a parent says, look, I've
come here for equine therapy

or equine assisted something.

And this kid, Young person is
supposed to engage with a horse

and that's what I've come here.

I'm spending the money and they must do
this and Then let's say also a kid comes

in with and they're just on their tablet
They're just on the phone and you've got

someone saying no get off your phone You
know, this is time now for the war and

you see this whole conflict unfolding.

What's your strategy?

What do you do?

Alex Northover: I put them on the
horse with the phone or the tablet.

They want to sit on it.

They can sit on the horse and sit
on the phone and the tablet, and we

will just go for a little hack and
they will, will either long line

or work from the ground so that the
horse is moving comfortably for them.

And if they want to be on it, they
can be on it, but very quickly.

It's a regulatory tool.

And if, if you don't, sweat it, they
get what they need from it and move on.

Often it's to do with the transition.

So, you know, if, if a young person,
the transition into a new space can

be difficult and the device is a way
of like shutting out that stimulus.

So, you know, that's fine.

You can have a little watch of some
videos while we're getting ready or,

you know, or doing something, or you can
just sit on the horse and watch videos,

but pretty quickly, again, the demand
aspect, if it's, if it's not, it doesn't

become an issue if we don't make it one.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And I think, go ahead,
sorry, and I was going

Alex Northover: to say, I think
we, we sort of talk through these

things very explicitly when.

Providers or parents come at first, and
I also stress the point that this is

their family, they are the expert in
their child, and if what I'm suggesting

doesn't seem like a good model for
them, if it doesn't seem like it rings

true and you know, it sits comfortably
in their gut for their child, then

it probably isn't the right thing.

And you know, in which case I can
signpost you to maybe another service

or somebody else that that might be
able to to help you in a different way.

If you don't feel that our
approaches are marrying with your.

Your sort of worldview on what you
how you want to approach your child or

what you think will work for your child

Rupert Isaacson: And before teachers or
local or parents or a local educational

authority, whoever bring that young
person out Are you giving them a bit of a

free?

heads up training Explanation of we work
in this way because blah are you okay

with that before you even come here or?

Alex Northover: Yeah,
there's usually a preamble.

So if it's, if it's a school or somebody
commissioning a service, there's,

there's often been quite a long run up
to the young person actually coming.

The family play dates are a little bit
different because people self refer to us.

So again, we send information and we
have a sort of a, an email conversation

prior to the young person coming.

And then when they come for
the first time, we show them

around, talk through what we do.

I go through it.

An overline of what a session
might look like and then, you

know, they, they, that either feels
comfortable to them or it doesn't

and that's okay if, if, if there's,

Rupert Isaacson: but they have
time to take in the, the, the,

the work before they arrive.

Alex Northover: Yes.

Yeah.

So they've had, they've had that
information at the beginning.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Now you also, this sounds very
complex you also talked about

not being married to a certain.

Speaking of marriage and being married,
you have another half and your other

half, Lenny brings, is not a horse person,

brings a lot to these sessions.

Can you talk to us about, and she's
not here to speak for herself,

obviously, but can you talk to
us about her, her role in this?

And then how you guys, work as a team
this way, because I think for a lot of

people listening, there's an assumption
that let's say I, the listener, want to

set up some sort of equine assisted thing.

There's often in one's head an idea
of this is me, the individual setting

up this thing for these people.

However, I think as we all know the way
human relationships work best because

we're social apes is Through some sort
of extended family tribe clan thing

and at the center of that You know,
even though I know you neither you nor

Lenny look a day over 23 There has to
be a sort of a tribal elder council.

You know what I mean that and It seems
to me that you and Lenny really do this.

Lenny will kill me for saying
she looks like an elder, but

I'm speaking as an old soul.

Right.

Talk us through that dynamic and, and
how you guys work together and what.

Expertise Lenny brings, and maybe we
should actually have her in, you know,

for her own interview, but without that
luxury right now, talk us through this

whole dynamic of how making momentum with
you and Lenny works, because I've watched

it at work, and it's intriguing to me.

Alex Northover: So I think we have
complimentary, but differing personality

types and knowledge bases and the
things that, you know, That we sort

of mesh together really nicely.

So she has the same core set of
values, but comes at it from a

completely different perspective.

So her practice is all around creativity,
self expression, art making things.

She was a ceramicist.

Well, she is a ceramicist.

So her degree is in ceramics
and she was an art teacher.

So she's very focused on creating,
producing something, making things.

And the nature of that in the same
way as they approach the horse

is very experimental, because you
have to be able to make errors.

You have to, you know, if you're producing
a painting, like an oil painting or

something, it's built in layers and there
will be moments where you hate it and

it looks awful and you've got to push
through and adjust and, you know, in this,

in this, with the ceramics, it's, it's
a process that the material physically

changes and, you know, things can go wrong
and explode in the kiln and it's all about

like, resilience and trusting the process.

So it's, it's very Although it's a
completely different field, I think

lots of the core values and underpinning
thought processes are very similar.

So that works nicely together and in the
same, as I was saying before, I think

children gravitate towards the adult
that is providing the sort of energetic

space or the approach or the personality
type that they need in that moment.

And I know that there are kids
that come that are Lenny kids and

there are kids that come that are.

My kids and there are kids that
come, you know, that are drawn

to another member of staff.

We have great people that we work with.

I have absolute joy with
all the people we work with.

They've got a cracking team and
they all bring slightly different

but complementary approaches, you
know, so that might be the music.

It might be sport.

It might be an interest in, you know,
anime or, you know, a another thing,

but there's, there's a suite of skill
sets that everybody brings something

and there will always be a child that
is really interested in that thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that
if to have a really effective equine

assisted practice, you've actually
got to have a number of people on

the team who are not equine assisted,
who are bringing other things in?

Do you think it could work if
everyone's just equine focused?

Like give me your thoughts on that.

Alex Northover: I think even if your
team is equine focused, I mean the

majority of our team is equine focused
or have, you know, but, but they

are, we are, none of us one thing.

Nobody's a monolith.

So, you know, as much as I eat,
drink and breathe horses, there are

other things that I am interested
in, other things that I've pursued,

other things in my background.

Rupert Isaacson: Like what?

Alex Northover: Well, I was a
scientist, you know, science.

So I'm interested in the natural world.

I'm interested in the environment and
ecology and the space that we live in.

And you know, the, the,
that is interesting to me.

I really love physics.

I wasn't a physicist.

I was a biologist, but I, I'm
really interested in those spaces.

And I think everybody comes to the
table with more than one offering.

And it's just about Making sure
that people have the opportunity to

showcase their skills and talents
and interests and knowledge.

Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned science.

I happen to know that you are
doing something rather interesting

and scientific through Manchester
Metropolitan University.

Could you talk us through that?

Alex Northover: Yes.

So I was lucky enough to receive
a Fulbright scholarship, PhD

scholarship from White Rose Doctoral
Training Partnership which is a

collaboration of several Northern
universities, hence the white rose.

So there's University of Leeds, University
of York, Sheffield, Bradford, Manchester

Metropolitan University, Sheffield Hallam
University, and the University of Hull.

So they have funding, pools
of funding for open core PhDs.

So, with most PhDs, or it's
more usual for PhDs that you

apply to an existing project.

Almost like a job role.

So somebody will advertise the
funding that they have, and you

apply for that, and you get your
PhD working on this larger project.

These are open calls, so you submit
the project you have designed, and

it's your project that you've created.

So they have different sort of
streams, different areas of interest.

So mine's their well well being
health and communities pathway.

So, My PhD is looking at co designing
outcome measures for equity assisted

supports with autistic co researchers.

So it's forefronting the experiences, the
lived experiences, and the, wishes and

needs and feelings of what is important
for autistic people for them to decide

the success criteria of an equestrian

Rupert Isaacson: support.

Decoding what you just said in hub terms,
that sounds an awful lot like letting

autistic people tell therapists, equine
assisted or otherwise, what works for

them rather than being told what doesn't.

Works for them.

Alex Northover: Yeah.

So that's

Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

Talk to us in layman's terms about this.

Alex Northover: So when you are
providing any kind of service, you

obviously have to demonstrate to
funders or public bodies that you are.

Doing something that is meaningful
because people are you know, funding

attendance somewhere along the line,
so we have to measure outcomes for

any type of support or intervention.

But if you have your service users, if
you co design your service with your

service users, and your service users
are dictating what they found meaningful.

impactful and meaningful from a
service from their own perspective

for their own benefit, they can
dictate the success criteria.

And that means that the whole service
becomes neurodivergent affirming

because you are measuring the things
that are of importance to the autistic

people that are attending and not what
we neurotypical people may externally

believe to be important to them.

You're, you're, you're.

removing the assumption you're
centering the lived experience

as the the person is the expert.

Rupert Isaacson: It's the first time
I've ever heard of anyone asking

autistic people what they think.

That's

Alex Northover: not true.

You asked Temple Grandin.

Well, right.

Rupert Isaacson: Outside of me.

And one of the things which I find
fascinating about this PhD that

you're doing is that you asked
Rowan, you asked Scub, my son

to come in and consult with you.

On what his perception was, is, on
equine assisted work, what works for

him, what might not work so well for
him and to help you with the study.

And what was so interesting when you
did that was I was placed in quite a

vulnerable position because there's Rowan
who's grown up with the equine assisted

model that basically, I designed in
order to follow him on the recommendation

first of Temple Grandin and then by
what he showed me himself worked.

But it was very interesting
to, to listen to him

talk about effectively best practice,
you know, and then to realize, oh my

gosh, well, you talk about getting rid
of ego, you know, know what one needs to

do is, is hear him talk about what he'd
like more of what he'd like less of.

Because you know, that's going
to inform the next generation

coming up or best practice.

It's amazing that you're doing this
within the equine assisted world,

because As you know, equine assisted
providers tend to be bossy, horsey people.

And guilty at large, by the way,
I'm holding my hand up here.

I mean, horse people have to be de facto
a little bit bossy in order to be able

to handle a horse herd because horses
themselves are a little bit bossy.

And you know, I mean, it's, we're mirrors
and it's kind of a little bit the culture.

So it's, it's a really interesting dance
when you have to kind of give up your

bossiness But at the same time, direct
that bossiness over there to create,

you know, safety and order and some
structure, but at the same time, lose

that bossiness completely in order to
listen to the client group, the service

users that now are informing you.

And you talked about the death of the ego.

You talked about the
letting go of the ego.

How's that working for you?

I mean, it's, it's, it's,
it's a tough dance, right?

I mean.

It

Alex Northover: is.

And I've kind of gone through this.

I have got to the place where.

For the academic work, certainly, I am
comfortable with discomfort and I have,

I have gone through kind of, it's a
reiterative process, I've gone through

this over and over again and I kind of go
through this like spiral of, do I, should

I even be occupying a seat at this table?

Really?

Like, you know, am I, do, should
I, as a neurotypical person even

be completing this research at all?

And how do I.

Balance

the fact that the bulk of the benefit
from the research comes to me because I

have the scholarship, I have the living
stipend, I get the academic qualification,

but also the responsibility for the
project rests with me because I've got

to like actually manage it and produce it
and deliver something at the same time.

Really wanting to honor
the fact that those.

Voices with the lived experience.

My autistic co researchers are the experts
in, you know, they are the authorities.

They are the expert voice here and
representing them and advocating from

the, for them in academic spaces where
they, when, when they're not there as

well, because, you know, it's, it's
fairly easy to do in the co research

space where we're working together.

But sometimes I have to go and quite
vigorously defend their position to

people that are like more senior than me.

You know, in a way that
is quite challenging.

And I think.

Yeah, I, I don't think it's clean.

It is a messy space.

And I think the only way you can
navigate that space is by being aware

of that messiness and constantly really
interrogating yourself and the way

you're approaching things and your
motivations and why you're doing things.

I did a piece of reading by he Epstein,
who is an autistic autism researcher,

and she, I read her PhD and she
talked about the role of researchers

really reflecting on their own kind of
assumptions and biases and, and what they

you know, bring to the table and really.

Being aware of those things so
that you can challenge them,

but it isn't it's not
straightforward at all

Rupert Isaacson: What what kind of
resistance have you encountered from

people more senior to yourself about?

Letting people on the autism spectrum

begin to consult govern dictate
how therapeutic practice should go

Alex Northover: It's not really
resistance isn't the right word

everybody's very Supportive and like
committed to the process it's about

Navigating the governance of research
in a, in a field that is quite fluid.

So when you're doing co design,
the gold standard of co design

is to have your service users
contribute thoroughly, meaningfully,

at every stage in the process.

But that's.

Practically quite difficult to do because
you have to go through ethical clearances.

You have to have a degree of
things cemented in order to get

the gold stamp, you know, to the.

The green light, if you like, to go
through and do the research, which

is right, because it's important that
people who are potentially vulnerable are

protected and, you know, all of the kind
of legal things done in the correct way.

But those, I've sort of found
that those things sit a little

in contrast, and that has been,

again, a tricky space to navigate,
because I want to leave as much

opportunity and as much openness and
as much fluidity so that Co researchers

can dictate what is happening, but also

allowing the governance things
to happen in a way that makes

the projects meaningful and
appropriate and safe for everybody.

Rupert Isaacson: What are the, what are
the autistic co designers telling you?

What are the main takeaways you're
getting at this stage in the study?

Alex Northover: So the, the things
that they identified as being kind of,

meaningful to them were not the things
that are generally measured in the

scientific literature and in research.

They were more based around wellbeing
and that's not something that is

generally used as an outcome measure,

Rupert Isaacson: but other
counterintuitive of wellbeing, very

personal, subjective, each one to
the other, or is there a pattern

that you can discern across all,

Alex Northover: Too soon to say, I would
say so that the way that the research

works is that there is There was , a
series of focus groups with my co

researchers, whereby we looked at their
experience and , the things that they felt

were important, we sort of talked together
about and fed back on each other's

ideas and kind of picked out key themes.

That was the first phase of the research.

The second phase of the research is
to take that to a wider audience and

see if there's agreement and what.

Where the priorities lie
in a larger population.

So come back this time next year
and I'll be able to tell you.

Rupert Isaacson: Give us , a
little bit of some trends.

If you're a practitioner, what have
you learned since the beginning of

your study that you could say has
positively affected your own practice?

Alex Northover: I think recognizing
that there is, it's a an ebb and flow

between the person who is coming, the
person who is providing, and the horse.

And I think that movement between
the three sort of agencies that

are involved in the session
is really, really meaningful.

And I think watching watching somebody
work with a horse, is revealing

for the service user as well as
it is for the service provider.

So in the same way that somebody in a
traditional model might be watching how

people interact with the horse to gauge
their kind of emotional state, I think

that is happening the other way as well.

And I think you can tell a lot by a person
by how they interact with animals and

how they manage challenge and whether
or not they get stressed or, you know,

if they're authentic, if they're If
the what they're saying matches up with

how they're presenting, that HOST is a
great diagnostic tools and I think that

works the other way as it does for the
the practitioner watching the client.

I think it also works for the client
watching the practitioner too.

Rupert Isaacson: Are we talking about
the importance of being able to recognize

symbiosis and what symbiosis is and
all the nuances around symbiosis?

Because you're talking about

Alex Northover: Yeah, I think so.

That's tough.

It's a tough thing to answer

I think we have to be careful When
you're drawing generalizations to do

it in such a way that doesn't make
everybody a monolith because every type

of like a question assisted support
comes from a slightly different place

has a slightly different background.

Each practitioner is a different person.

Each horse is a different being.

Each client has a different
set of needs and desires.

And it's about how do we
tease out the things that are.

uniform across practice and uniform
across a service user group in a way

that doesn't diminish or dehumanize or
make things too much of a generality.

Because you know there is commonality,
but there are also a lot of differences

and we need to kind of, agree as
you know a practitioner community

about what we are providing for our
service users And what the service

users feel is important for them.

Rupert Isaacson: You're at the cutting
edge of moving stuff forward to the

next phase because I think where
you differ from me is that I'm a

practitioner, you know, and I'm a,
I'm a comer up wither of the world.

methodology perhaps,
but you're a measurer.

You're also a practitioner.

You're also innovative.

You're also running everything,
but you're also measuring.

So when you measure, you allow the
growth of the field because people have

something against which they can measure.

Do you see what I'm saying?

And so it's very, very necessary work.

I think, every single person
who's listening to this podcast

who's got an Equine Assisted thing
is, is waiting to hear, what can

I do to make what I do better?

Alex Northover: By

engaging your service users in such
a way as they co design your service.

So if you are co designing.

is the gold standard for
patient care in medical fields.

It's expected if you're doing any kind of
medical research that, or, you know, any

kind of designing of delivery of service
that you do recruit and engage your

service users, because they are, you know,
the people who need to be able to engage

with the model, whatever it happens to be.

So ask, ask the people you're
working with what they want

to get out of this experience.

And keep checking in, seek out the
mentorship of people who have been

through similar projects, programs,
what they found useful, what

they didn't like, speak to them.

So always go back to that perspective
because anything any service in

order to be meaningful has to
produce a change in the service user.

It has to, be impactful in that
person's life in a productive way.

So if you go back and speak to those
people and, you know, really embrace their

input into every aspect of your service.

So if you're going to send out paperwork
for somebody who is autistic or has a

learning difficulty or you know, some
kind of cognitive difference, have source

people who have those needs and ask
them to proofread your intake sheets.

Ask them to look at your website,
ask people with dyslexia if they

can read the font on your website.

Like engage, engage your service users and
that is the route to meaningful provision.

Rupert Isaacson: Get mentorship from the
very people that you provide service for.

Alex Northover: Yes.

Yeah, make no assumptions.

Rupert Isaacson: That
makes perfect sense to me.

What's interesting is that that's not the
norm, but I do think that with studies

like yours it can help to become the
norm because there are lots of very,

very good practitioners out there who
are doing exactly what you just said.

And at the same time, perhaps
they're facing some opposition

on this, whether it's societal,
whether it's academic, whether it's

authoritative, you know, local.

authority saying, you know, no,
it's got to be a top down thing.

And also one has to be able to dance
the dance where you can talk in a

way that makes it sound like it's
sufficiently top down that they'll

fund you because that's still

Often want to hear.

In particularly, you know, I
know this is true in the U.

S.

for example.

While at the same time, absolutely
doing what you're, you're saying to

do, which leads me to the next thing.

You are now an authority on this Alex.

And how can people come
and learn from you?

If I had been starting out now, and
I was listening to this podcast, I

think, Shit, you know, I, I, I want
to learn from this Alex person.

I want this Alex person to
show me how to set up my thing.

I want to consult with her.

I want to learn from her.

I want to be trained by her.

I want to be mentored by her.

Are you offering that?

can people contact you?

How would that work?

Do you train?

What, what do you do?

Alex Northover: Yeah, very, very
happy to keep the conversation going.

So yeah, people are very
welcome to contact me.

Contact me and, and, you know,
or come and we deliver training.

So, obviously, we do the movement
method and the horseboy method

and the TI provision training
I deliver training in schools.

But, you know, if you have specific
questions, you're very welcome to, I

will always do my best to answer them.

Or if I can't answer them, I can usually.

Direct you to somebody who can but I
think that, you know, this is obviously

international finding, finding a
mentor for you, who is familiar with

how things work in your country of
delivery or your state of delivery is

also really important because there are
nuances and differences to do with you

know, policy and geographical location
and all of those types of things.

So, you know, some things are general
and applicable anywhere, but some

things you need specific local
understanding and knowledge as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Where do you want to
see your practice go in the foreseeable?

Let's go five years, 10 years.

And where do you want to see the field go?

Alex Northover: I think I,
anybody who is in this space.

can see that there is kind of a
collective understanding of the fact

that we need to, as a, a field produce
some clarity of understanding about

what it is that everybody offers.

So, you know, I, I don't describe
what we offer as an equine therapy

because I am not a therapist.

And, you know, I think it's right
and important that we're clear on

our language and create a clear
set of shared understanding.

Right, and

Rupert Isaacson: something could be
therapeutic without being a therapy.

Alex Northover: Being a therapy.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so, you know, having that, but
making sure that people understand that

and having that shared understanding
about what it is that we are able to

deliver, what it is that we are providing
and what they can expect from us.

And I think that is something that
I see reflected within the field the

larger field and kind of an increasing
formalization of what is equine assisted

therapy, what is equine facilitated
learning, what are the sort of qualities

qualifications and you know, methodologies
behind those services, but I think

there should also be a space for there
is so much good work happening from

so many different kind of approaches.

So many different backgrounds.

So many different, methodologies, I think,
finding a way where we can formalize

stuff without stifling that creativity
and without that, without removing

people's capacity to have innovation and
be unique, I think is really important.

Because there are, there is such huge
diverse needs for so many different

reasons that it is right and proper that
services don't all do the same thing.

Because.

What people find from each
individual service is, is different.

What people take from each
individual service is different.

And if we over formalize and
make it formulaic, I think

some of that, that is lost.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that every
equine assisted place, gig, practice

should do a number of methodologies?

Not just, not just horseplay or regala
or Do you think there should, as much

as possible, be a cross fertilization?

Alex Northover: I think we should develop
uniformity in terms of the, there needs to

be some things that we're all doing with
regards to safeguarding health and safety,

you know, that, that making sure that
clients are comfortable and safe within

a space and, and meeting those needs.

I think there's also things that we
should all be doing around animal equine

welfare and well being and honoring
horses as our partners in this endeavor

that are really, really important.

But I think that Everybody who comes into
these fields comes with their own passion

and purpose, and it's important that they
sense that and honor that because those

are the things that they do really well.

And that is what gives longevity
and spark to your provision.

So if you are super, super passionate
about one modality, or if you are super

passionate about groundwork, or, you
know, observing the horses in a natural

space, or, producing, you know, doing
written work, mounted work, whatever it

is, everybody's got, you know, liberty
training, whatever it is that you're

doing should be the thing that feeds
your soul as well, because that's what

allows you to provide service for others.

Rupert Isaacson: Most young people
that might need to access your service.

A service like yours
don't live where you are.

They don't live in the country.

They don't have access to
horses, animals, nature

in your perfect world.

How do you begin to answer that need?

You're not far from Manchester,
but Manchester is a big amorphous,

scary conurbation with areas that.

people, they're not going to
see horses in nature and stuff.

And those are probably where the young
people are with the greatest need.

In your perfect world, how would you have
those people, those young people from

those places, access services like yours?

I

Alex Northover: think it's about
dissemination of knowledge.

So, I think there is definitely an
understanding that there is need.

There is definitely a awareness that
we need to meet need, Then schools and

practitioners maybe don't know where to go
with that, don't know how to address it.

So I think making training sort of
more widely available so that some of

these approaches and techniques can
be applied in more mainstream or urban

settings, bringing that ethos into those
places, I think would be really useful.

Does that mean putting

Rupert Isaacson: your horses in a
trailer and taking them into a school?

Or does that mean training people
in those schools to have nature?

and interaction with nature,
even in within a classroom or

so like, what does that mean?

Alex Northover: I think the latter.

So, you know, as much as it is
lovely to be able to drop in

and provide that experience.

And I think that is very meaningful.

The, the thing that has the biggest
impact is the small day to day changes.

So if, if everybody could introduce
some aspects of allowing for regulatory

movement and removing negative sensory
triggers and loading up positive sensitive

triggers into their spaces, those
small the cumulative effect of those

many small changes would be absolutely
enormous for so many young people.

Well, every young person that moves
through that space and I think that is

the The most meaningful thing we could do
at this time is to share that knowledge

and furnish people from outside of this
field with those tools and that skill set.

Rupert Isaacson: That sounds like
basically bringing nature into schools.

Why is nature so important?

Alex Northover: So it is the
environment we are evolved to be in

we weren't evolved to be in concrete
cubes with artificial lighting and

you know, the the more in front

Rupert Isaacson: of a computer
actually, I think I was born

Alex Northover: Yeah, the more the more
that you can allow young people and

not just young people, staff as well.

You know, the more time you can
spend in an environment that meets

your sensory needs and allows for
regulation, the better you will do.

The more accessible learning is, the
more you are in that you know, calm

regulated learning space that allows
you to accumulate knowledge or memory.

Access executive functioning and
emotional regulation and all of that.

All of those things that we need in
order to be not only successful academic

learners, but you know, human beings.

Rupert Isaacson: We're organisms.

We're designed for planet Earth.

And a lot of the time we're living
in some artificialized version of

planet Earth, which causes us stress
and makes our brains go squiffy.

Got it.

Here's my final question.

You've got a parent, you've got a
teacher, and they brought their young

person or people out to your place.

And now you're going to send them home
or back to the classroom with some tips

on how to keep going the good things
that they find it yours at theirs.

Break me down like three,
five, whatever, what would be

the things that you would say?

If you do these things, you're going
to continue to see positive outcomes.

And if you don't do
them, you kind of won't.

Alex Northover: I think keeping
in mind the shared endeavor, the

purpose of what you're doing.

So the purpose of what we're
doing within the education system

is , allowing people, young people to
go on to the next step successfully.

Now, while the acquisition of academic
success is important to that, if it comes

at the cost of the individual's well
being and functioning capacity, it doesn't

matter how many A levels you've got if
you can't, if you've become so shut down

that you're unable to leave your home.

Like that, that becomes
a meaningless pursuit.

So I think shifting the focus
back onto the purpose of

education, which is producing.

you know, a functioning, well adjusted,
comfortable, happy member of society.

That's, that's what you're there for.

And, and recognizing that that can
look like a lot of different things.

So allowing for individual passions
and strengths and approaches to

working and problem solving and all of
those things to be equally respected

and regarded is really important.

Rupert Isaacson: That problem solving
thing sounds like BDNF to me, which is,

yeah, brain derived neurotrophic factor.

Yeah, neuroplasticity.

Alex Northover: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: right neuroplasticity
So the parent goes away and you say

do these three things and you'll
get neuroplasticity in your house

Alex Northover: What

Rupert Isaacson: are they?

Alex Northover: Move movement.

So allow for everything to be
experiential hands on real world learning.

You can deliver any academic
content through experiential

hands on real world learning.

If you want them to learn about
pivots, moments, build a trebuchet.

And while you're doing that, you can
talk about concentric castles and sieges.

So you can do history
and physics in one go.

And also think, reflect
back onto the stuff that was

meaningful for you as a learner.

If you really think about it, and
stuff that stuck, and what inspired

passion in you, whatever those passions
were, what did that look like for

you, and, and how can you reproduce
those experiences for your child

or the young people you work with?

Rupert Isaacson: I'm going
to play devil's advocate.

I can't even think about that Alex,
because my kid's just going nuts at

home, and I just want to medicate him
because it'll make life easier for me.

And they're just exploding all over
the house, wrecking the furniture.

What do I do?

Alex Northover: I think medication
is really important for a lot

of people for a lot of reasons.

I think that it can be really life
changing, but it shouldn't be your first

port of call and it certainly shouldn't be
the only solution to somebody's struggles.

So, if you, if your
child But what am I going

Rupert Isaacson: to do then?

Kids going, bananas and nuts,
what am I, what am I going to do?

Alex Northover: Get them outside.

. Rupert Isaacson: So the parent
says, I can't go outside.

I don't want to go outside
for bazillion reasons.

I'm in lockdown and the kid's going crazy.

And what can I do?

.
Alex Northover: At that point, the child
is communicating a need and their primary

need in that moment is sensory input.

So if your child is It's going wild.

You need to meet that demand.

You need to meet that sensory need in
whatever way that child is asking for.

So that might be that you provide movement
opportunities like trampolines or indoor

swings or peanut balls or climbing

Rupert Isaacson: frame
from the wall or something.

Alex Northover: All of
those types of things.

So in that moment, in that
headspace the primary need is

connection of the brain and body.

So you have to meet that need first
before you can do anything else.

At that point, the child is not open
to rationalization or a conversation

or a punishment or reward or anything.

They're completely driven
by that sensory input need.

So meet that first.

and then everything else comes second.

Rupert Isaacson: So let them
move, let them move, figure

out ways to let them move.

Alex Northover: Yes.

And then that, that buildup of energy
tension will dissipate and then you will

have the BDNF and the brain space that
allows the, the access to the other,

you know, rational parts of the brain.

And if you try and approach
that first you will struggle.

Because even if the child really
wants to comply and sit still

and take it in, they'll only be
concentrating on sitting still.

They won't actually be receiving
whatever information it is that

you're trying to give them.

Need to be able to re regulate
it in a regulated space first.

So move, move, move, move.

Rupert Isaacson: Move, move, move.

Love it.

Okay, Alex, thank you so much for
coming on Equine Assisted World.

Before we go, Please tell people how they
can reach you, websites, emails, etc.

Alex Northover: Okay, so you
can use our work email, which

is makingmomentumatoutlook.

com

makingmomentumatoutlook.

com And yeah, feel free to contact
us through that or through, if

you search for makingmomentum.

com Cheshire, you will find our Facebook
and Instagram social media pages.

You can Making

Rupert Isaacson: momentum Cheshire.

Alex Northover: Yes.

If you search that, it'll
come up and you'll see you'll,

you'll see where we are.

Rupert Isaacson: Listen, Alex,
thank you so much for coming on.

You're a master of the arts.

It's an honor to have you on.

Alex Northover: Well, thank
you very much for having me..

Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to check out our online

courses and live workshops in Horse Boy
Method, movement Method, and Athena.

These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

dealing with trauma around the world.

We also offer a horse training
program and self-care program

for riders on long ride home.com.

These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

bring you and your horse joy.

For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

See you on the next show.

And please remember to
press, subscribe and share.