Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome to Equine Assisted World.

I've got Christine Dixon with me today.

If you don't know her, you
soon will, and you should.

She is based out of Los Angeles.

She is an equine assisted coach,
but she's much, much more than that.

And I'm going to let her Talk a little
bit about the modalities that she uses

and how she uses them specifically with
trauma and addiction and for those of

us who are working broader and broader
in the field like us at Horsepoy and New

Trails where we got into it with autism
and then naturally found this broadening

out into all sorts of areas of You know
mental health we realize at certain

points that we need mentors And I was at
the Warwick Schiller's Journey On Summit

in Birmingham in England this year.

And I'd met Christine before in
California, but she was there

speaking again, and this is
the first time I'd really had a

chance to properly listen to her.

And She shared in more
depth about her work.

And so I thought I would try it out.

I thought this sounds really good I'm
gonna try this thing that she does and

see if it works on some of my own, you
know difficult histories and stories

and little traumas that are going around
within me and she did her thing and it

worked interesting and it worked in a
way that Usually, I'm used to seeing

when I'm engaging in the shamanic world.

And normally I don't bring that
side into equine assisted world,

because it's a can of worms.

However, there are things that
cross over in the shamanic world.

human consciousness in society, but
also have good hard science behind them.

So without rambling too much more, I'm
going to let Christine introduce herself

and advocate for her own awesomeness,
and share with us some things that really

will inform us making our practices.

Okay, so Equine Assist.

Well, thank you for coming on.

Please tell us who you
are and what you do.

Christine Dickson: Well, first, I'm
really excited to be here because Yes,

we did connect in a deeper way at the
Birmingham summit, because we kind of

were in this orbit of each other the
other two times, but this time we really

talked and we've just had a lot of deep
conversations that have been really fun.

So I'm excited to be here and
have another one with you.

So

I, you know, these days I
transformational mentor because.

That I'm trained in, in a few
modalities that they all kind

of work together beautifully.

I, I got trained as a clinical
hypnotherapist in 2004.

I've been trained as an advanced
practitioner of IEMT, which is

integral eye movement technique.

And I have been doing equine assisted
coaching for about five, six years now.

So all of those things as
well as mentoring and coaching

people, they all work really well
together and build on each other.

And the people that.

I think that I most attract and work
with, or, you know, it's funny, they

say, like, you know, you typically
work with people who are similar in

what their experiences are, right?

So I I tend to work with people who
have either grown up in families where

they had one or both caregivers, whether
that was a parent or grandparent,

had mental health issues, such as
pathological personality disorders or

addiction, because the 2 things show
up in, in much the same way you have

a, an emotionally and compassionate,
Level person who is dysregulated.

So their compassion for
others is greatly reduced

and that makes for a very unhealthy
environment for a child because the child

then really early on learns that to adapt
and survive in this environment, I'm

going to have to be able to read the room.

I'm gonna have to be able to read the
nervous system and thoughts of the person

who's bigger than me and in charge.

I'm And that becomes a hypervigilance.

It becomes this kind of almost superpower
where you can even tell by maybe the

way the footsteps are coming down
the hallway of whether this is going

to be a good night or a bad night.

And, and that is so linked that
kind of sensory projection and

hypervigilance is really correlated
with high levels of empathy.

So we develop these high levels of
connection and empathy and reading people.

The, the downside to that is
that what we don't cultivate.

Is our own sense of self,
we don't cultivate how we

feel in any given situation.

Like, like, does that
make me feel good or bad?

Or do I like this or dislike it?

Because we're always reading the room and
figuring out what other people are sensing

and feeling there and then adapting
to them in order again, to be safe.

And so this creates a pattern
where we only feel safe.

In how other people are perceiving us

and many times we grow up to take that
pattern out into the world and find

ourselves in constantly similar situations
because that's where our skill set is.

And even though we don't want
to be in those situations.

To the 88 percent that is our subconscious
mind, what is familiar is pleasurable.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you just repeat that?

Say that again.

Christine Dickson: So,
to the subconscious.

Yes.

We call them, you know, in hypnotherapy,
they're we, they're called knowns.

These are what we know, right?

To the subconscious knowns, which to
the conscious mind could be abuse or

negative, but to the subconscious.

Knowns are pleasurable because
we know how this works.

We've been here before.

It's like the devil you know.

So you could grow up in a very
dysregulated, unhealthy, chaotic,

abusive environment and your conscious
mind could dream about when you grow

up and you can't wait to get away from
all of this and you dream about this

healthy life that you want to live.

But what's funny, or it's not
funny at all, what is interesting,

let's say, is that the subconscious
goes, hey, that's a great idea.

That looks cool.

But guess what?

We've never experienced that.

And because it's the unknown,
it's, it's to be feared.

We're going to make you attracted
to people in situations that

will repeat the patterns of your
childhood because you know what?

You know how to do that.

So then we end up in relationships like
romantic relationships with people that

could most of the time appear that they're
Absolutely, not that and then once we

get further down the road we realize
oh my gosh This is the same pattern

and then we go through the trauma of
being In a relationship as an adult with

someone who's either battling addiction
or has the same pathological personality

disorders, or what can be really, really
heavy is that we are so broken down

spiritually.

Emotionally that in our, you know,
these, these create cognitive dissonance,

meaning, like, we no longer know
what's real and what's not what's true.

And what's not because we're
constantly being blamed projected

lied to all of these things.

So, and instead of trying
to clear and face it.

We take ourselves out and people will take
themselves down by then using drugs and

alcohol to check out when actually facing
and leaving the situation feels unbearable

and that the the worst part about
that is that we've now become more

more and more vulnerable in the
Relationship because that addiction

will be used against us to keep us
in that cage and keep us in that box

Rupert Isaacson: Addiction is
an interesting thing because we

tend to think of it as addiction
to a substance or a behavior.

But I think that what you're
talking about here is that what

we seem to be really addicted to
is certain types of relationship.

As you say, because what's
familiar, what's familiar.

We feel we know how to handle it.

So even if it's essentially unsafe, it's
a danger that we know how to navigate.

Christine Dickson: I
don't want to cut you up.

I just want to make one clarification.

I wouldn't call it an addiction.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: And the reason I
wouldn't call an addiction is because

there's a conscious aspect to addiction.

You know, when you're picking
up A bottle of alcohol, right?

You know when you're picking up a drug you
may feel powerless to it, but you know,

you're doing it We're talking about an
unconscious Program that exists in your

mind That even though consciously you
think you're making good choices and not

choosing it, you don't see the red flags
because your tolerance level of those red

flags has been trained to be so high that
you just don't see it until it gets to

this point where suddenly it's now crossed
into the level from the subconscious

into the conscious and you see what's now
happening and then it all becomes clear.

But it's not that choice of addiction.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay So if people are
listening to this and they're saying well,

okay, but i'm running an equine assisted
thing, you know Um, why do I need to

know this or I can see why I need to know
this But i've got people showing up who

might be going through something less.

How on earth do I help them?

I want to talk about your work prior to
horses first because, you know, we horse

people were very kind of, Oh, well, you've
been in this for five to seven years.

Well, I've been in it for, you know,
5, 000 years, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know?

So people like me, for example, I'll
play devil's advocate, you know,

grew up in horse culture, no horses,
never, never didn't know horses,

even though my parents actually were
not horsey, but I had a horsey aunt.

So I was, you know, And it's been my
life, you know, the whole, my whole life.

Even when I've done other careers,
it's always been parallel.

So there's never been a time when I
wasn't sort of a professional cause I came

out at it, not from the big money side.

So you then have to become a pro, you
know, basically first in the sports side,

the training side, and then latterly
in the therapeutic side or whatever.

Okay, fine.

So horse people.

naturally have a bit of an allergy when
someone comes in and says, well, I've

been doing this quite recently because we
know that that can also sometimes actually

lead to some, you know, bad judgments.

This is true.

So I want first for you to talk to
us about your life with these types

of treatments, modalities prior to
horses, then how did you get started?

Get into them with horses.

And then what can old timers like
me, equine dinosaurs learn from some

stuff that you can bring in from
completely outside of that world,

and then apply to horses that I could
have mentorship for when, when someone

like this shows up in my practice.

So can you talk us back
to where you began?

How do you know about all this stuff?

Christine Dickson: So.

Firstly, anybody that kind of, that knows
me or has worked with me, I, I really

don't push myself as a horse expert or
even a neckline coaching expert in this.

What I know is that what has worked, Or
me, but nobody has to listen to me at all.

I'm just going to share what
my experiences have been.

And again, like super humble in this area.

Like I would never put myself.

In the position of saying that
I'm an expert in this, but I can

share what my experience has been.

So what's funny is this, this whole,
this whole life journey began with the

idea of doing equine assisted coaching.

Well, that's not necessarily true.

It began with hypnotherapy.

I really, really wanted
to be a a therapist.

That's what I wanted to be.

And when I moved When I
moved from Vancouver, B.

C.

down to Los Angeles, and I was in a really
dysfunctional relationship and, you know,

very living like paycheck to paycheck.

I was still raising my kids.

I, I had never gone to college, right?

So

going back to school meant that I
was going to be in school for a very,

very, very long time before I would
be licensed to be able to see clients.

And I just didn't see how I was going
to be able to do that because I needed

to get out of this relationship and
I needed something that I could.

Make money at and support my children
and I wanted to really do something

that was going to help people so I saw
an ad for It was the only college in

the country of hypnotherapy and it was
in Los Angeles and it was a year and a

half program and I had a residency and
it was very I was very on the up and up.

So I signed up for that because that
would mean that within two years

I could actually be doing this.

And that changed my whole view of what I
wanted to do because I loved that modality

so much because it was addressing that 88
percent which is the subconscious program.

And I had felt like I found my thing.

I found the thing that I love doing.

I love seeing the results of this.

But I was still in the middle of my
own dysfunctional relationship and,

you know, one of the markers that makes a
person more likely to be in a pathological

relationship or I should say a cluster of
markers is one is a high, high level of

tolerance, a high, high level of empathy,
really strong level of loyalty to a fault.

Like, you give loyalty to someone
who does not give it back and

and those, those a combination
of those things and that your

relationships mean the world to you,
you know, and having those markers.

Those traits meant that I was
always putting, I would always

put everything before myself.

So even though I got trained in this,
even though I was so excited, even

though I was starting, I graduated,
I was starting to get clients.

At the time, my ex-husband was starting
as construction business and convinced

me that if I gave all that up.

And I became the operations
manager and ran that company for

him, for us, they would make way
more money than my hypnotherapy.

And therefore we could build
this up over and it was like,

do this for a year or two.

And then you can go do your
little hypnotherapy thing.

And you wouldn't have to worry
about money and blah, blah, blah.

Well, I'm sure you can
imagine how that went.

I was doing that for five years.

As our relationship disintegrated,
it was how and I would, but I

was doing it for this carrot.

You know, there was the carrot
and I just kept looking at that

carrot going against everything.

That was my, my intuition was telling me
my, my soul was telling me and guess what?

2008 happened and.

Everything was lost.

Five years.

I did that job and it was
everything that had been built up

was taken away in the recession.

We lost everything, everything.

And I went through a period where I
told myself that this was punishment.

You know, that the universe was punishing
me for being greedy because look, I

wanted this really abundant life that
I could give stuff to my children

and help my children and all this.

And I was just being greedy.

You should just be happy with
the fact that you have somewhere

to live and you have food.

And, and, and it was really hard.

Like I was really depressed.

And I had to slowly figure out who
I was because I had given everything

to this relationship and this
company and all of this and it all

was not in alignment with who I was.

It was not in integrity.

And now I didn't know who I was.

And I, I read at that point in
time, I read The Artist's Way.

And in The Artist's Way, it talks about

journaling, writing morning
pages, and having one day a

week that was your play day.

And when I was thinking about play,
of course play kind of goes back to

your childhood, so I started using
my childhood as kind of fertile

ground to try and remember who I was.

And try to rebuild myself and I
would go to museums because they

were free and I was so broke.

I mean, this was in the
middle of the recession.

I was so sober.

I was baking bread at home.

It, yeah, it was, I was very,
very financially tapped.

So

yeah, this was a slow process.

Building myself back up again.

Rupert Isaacson: Where do
the horses come into this?

Christine Dickson: So, when things
were really bad, I would go to barns.

I would find public barns.

I didn't know, like, I always loved
horses, but I would, I don't know, I

didn't understand why when it was Was

Rupert Isaacson: that, was
that going back to childhood?

Was that the little girl
who actually wanted horses?

Christine Dickson: Yes.

Yes.

And I would go to the barns and I would
just walk up and down the breezeway

and feel better and feel this calming
unraveling in my chest and feel like

I could breathe just being there

Rupert Isaacson: with the horse's
heads looking over the boxes sort of

Christine Dickson: that's it.

Maybe I'd pet some noses a little
bit, but you know, like I was.

Rupert Isaacson: And had you been
exposed to horses at all as a kid?

Christine Dickson: Yes.

But not a lot like my, I was a horse
crazy girl that never did get a

horse, you know, my grandmother, they
couldn't afford to have a horse for me.

So they would take me to like, sometimes
like a riding barn where you could, you

know, I got sent to like a horseback
riding camp one, one summer for two

weeks that was borderline traumatic.

Yeah, like, you know, I always
gravitated towards horses always.

So I had, I had experiences, but I
never really, really had experiences.

So that led me to in, in
2007, I read the Tao of Equus

by Linda Kahanov.

And it was like, I suddenly
understood why I was attracted

to horses at my darkest moments.

Rupert Isaacson: By the way, for
listeners, if you don't know who

she is, go to our Live Free Ride
Free podcast and check out the

interview with Linda Kahanov there.

It's really good.

Okay.

Sorry, back to you, Christine.

Christine Dickson: Well, she, reading that
was like, Oh my God, I want to do this.

Rupert Isaacson: Like, why, what
did, what did the book say to you?

Christine Dickson: Because I have
always been so connected to animals.

I've always felt like a
deep connection to animals.

And especially horses, but I didn't
have a lot of experience with

horses and I loved helping people.

I loved, I loved.

Learning to I love learning about
why we do the things we do or

how, you know, how can we heal?

How can we go from suffering and
surviving into being a healthy and,

and liberated thriving human and not
just someone who now has, well, I,

I healed that pain, but, you know,
I'm still kind of in the shadows.

So I saw that I could marry, I could
marry my love for horses and my deep

desire to learn because how, like,
I didn't know anything about this.

I mean, how fun to learn this and to
get that wisdom and then to practice

something that is just, you know.

Like magical and there's an aspect
of it that it's not clinical, right?

Like you're partnering with a horse.

So you have no idea
what's going to happen.

There's it's always, there's a newness
to it and a trust in it and a spiritual

sense that I was very attracted to.

So that went on my vision board in 2007.

That went on my vision board
and I always joke about it

because what's funny is, is that.

When I finally got to a place where that
was possible because that was the guy

that was a gasoline in my tank Like it
was always gonna be I wanted I even ran

the the equine assisted program at the
addiction Facility I worked at in Malibu

Partnering with there was a therapist
and the horse handler came in and

then I was the one that ran the
equine part program by, I brought

the people to it, I participated in
it, and it was my job to write the

clinical notes for what took place.

And

Rupert Isaacson: this is
sometime after 2008, right?

Christine Dickson: Yeah, this
is this, sorry, this is in 2018

to, yeah, for about two years.

But that was saying that was the gas in
my gas tank that was on my vision board.

But when I finally got to the place where
I could do that, really do that was.

The end of 2020, when I moved into
my own ranch and had everything.

And I remember sitting on a chair,
looking out at my horses and having this

breath and going, Oh, I'm finally here.

I can finally do it.

And then just having
this realization that.

That's not it.

Like, it's a part of it for sure,
but the vision of me just doing that,

like everything else falling away
and like that was, it, it, it wasn't

it, but it was a really key piece.

And the horses brought me
here a thousand percent.

And

I've had amazing experiences
with them, with clients.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your
current equestrian practice, and then I

want to go right back to the beginning.

Where you're born, how you arrive at
knowing about these sorts of relationships

why hypnotherapy, and then why from
hypnotherapy to some of the other

modalities that you do, which I think
will be useful for our listeners.

And then we're going to come catch
up again back to the present.

So tell us, just starting now, tell us
about your equestrian practice right now.

What is it?

What do you do?

Christine Dickson: So

when people seem a bit stuck,

I love partnering with the horses because

people will be more
genuine and have access.

I mean, they're not trying to not be
genuine, you know, no one's trying,

but, but a lot of times are traumas
based in other people, to be fair.

So,

accessing trust, developing
trust with someone takes time.

Trust in an animal can be immediate.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: So,

taking somebody out, let's say like, One
of the things that I've done that is, has

been really beneficial has been going out.

So I'll take a couple horses and I'll
invite them to come into the arena

and then I will close the arena.

I'll put all kinds of toys and things
out there for them to interact with.

And then the client and I will
sit, we'll sit outside the arena.

And I give them a patent paper and I
won't tell them the names of any horses

or any information about any horses.

And I asked them for about 1520
minutes to just observe the horses.

And then I wanted them to write a little
bio about each horse, like, how they

interpret that horse, what they see.

And what they feel that that horse's
personality is all of this stuff.

It's amazing because

people will project so much.

On to the horses, but by doing that by
taking it outside of their themselves

where they're feeling all the feelings
and putting them outside of their

body on to these forces, they gain
clarity and perspective around what's

actually going on in their life or how
they're viewing things in their life.

Rupert Isaacson: And then maybe the
fact that they actually do project

Christine Dickson: exactly.

That's my mother in law.

That's my old boss.

That one thing, you know, that one
just bosses everybody around, right?

Where anybody that knows horses would
say that one's just playing, right?

Just got a playful spirit.

That one's a bully, right?

That one's, and it can be also
projecting parts of themselves, right?

I had one person who was really attracted.

To my mule, who is like a Zen Buddha.

He is, he's just, he loves people.

He's a little man on
the totem pole though.

I have another horse that
is very confident, swagger.

He's the class clown.

And this person was saying that he
really felt a deep connection to my mule.

But he wanted.

To be the confident horse.

And he, and he, he had this almost
disgust towards the mule because

he was low on the totem pole.

He was a very empathetic and
non confrontational being.

And he, and, and this was a
manifestation of, of how he saw himself

as a man because he, he was that.

Loving, empathetic, healing man in
the world that values the swagger

and the confidence and felt, and
felt like that was what he needed to

cultivate and really had some self
loathing around that he wasn't that.

Rupert Isaacson: When you point
out to someone, you say, well, that

horse is being a bully, and you say,
well, actually, they're just playing.

At some point, you point that out.

Perhaps.

Do those people then get a
realisation, Oh shit, I'm projecting.

Fuck, I kind of do this
in my day to day life.

Oh.

Absolutely.

Do they get that clarity?

Yes.

Christine Dickson: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's so
interesting because I, I think that that

clarity is almost impossible to get human
to human because we, you know, we'll,

we'll die on the hill of our ego, right?

And, and we'll do that because
our ego is convinced that that's

what is necessary for survival.

I think we come by it honestly,
otherwise we wouldn't all do it.

It surprises me, frankly, to hear
that if you were to point that

out, that Someone would accept.

Oh gosh.

I guess I am I do project.

Because then that's you a human pointing
it out So therefore, you know, you're

now the adversary and the human, you
know, how do you dance that dance?

Christine Dickson: Well, you
certainly don't blurt it out, right?

You don't hit him over the head with it.

I I want to delve deep into first
What it is they're seeing and, and

let them use their, their own tools
to kind of like really flesh it out.

And then I ask questions, you know,
I ask them, I will ask them to,

do you want me to tell you the way
that these horses present here?

You know, not like this is the right
answer and that's the wrong answer,

but do you want me to tell you the way?

How they are seen here at the ranch.

So this guy, he's seen as a clown, right?

He's always looking for play and he's
confident and he's, he doesn't have

all the anxiety that some of the horses
who have had other experiences with

humans can have he's healthier mentally.

You know, like, and, and I have
yet to meet somebody that isn't

fascinated and excited about.

Looking at the differences between
their their perception and another

perception of What you're seeing

Rupert Isaacson: and the people
that are coming are they I know

you work a lot with addiction

Is that frequently what's brought
them through the ranch gate or is it

less that now is it more other things?

Christine Dickson: You know,
it's less the addiction now.

It's more the The people who have
experienced the other side, which

is the person who has lived with the
addict, or the person who has lived

with the person with a pathological
personality disorder or growing up

with them or chosen as partners.

Because there's a lot of
healing that needs to happen.

A lot of subconscious programming
and, and, you know, there's,

I think that there's an aspect that,

how do I say this?

So there's been a lot of emphasis on
helping the person who has low self esteem

and low and a low power level or how you
want to describe it in relationships,

the, the personal that's more.

Needs to be brought up there.

You know, that's been like so much,
the focus of self help books and,

and things is the person who needs
to be brought up but not a lot of

talk about the grandiosity and the
grandiose that needs to be brought down.

And many times when you're bringing
someone up, that's not something that

that person's used to, so they don't
have a feel for it, but it's, it's And

when they're trying to quote, unquote,
fight for themselves or set boundaries

or do these things, they, without a lot
of guidance, they can be not very good at

that and then they can overcompensate and
then they can start to become the bully.

Using their pain as justification,

but that's not what they want to do.

It's just that they don't have the
framework to be able to have balance

and, and have true, a true place of
grounding to come from and not feel

like everything is a power fight.

Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

Are you,

are you using a particular set
of modalities in the equine?

I know you are on the non equine.

I'm gonna keep promising
to go back to these.

We're going to are you using something
like egal National natural life

manship, blah, or are you, are you
sort of going with your gut here based

on the work that you did pre equine,
if you like, now brought to equine?

Is that more describing what you're doing?

Christine Dickson: Yes, yes.

It's more of partnering with the horse.

And allowing and, and just
really kind of setting things up.

I,

I just have a different
view, not a different view.

Cause a lot of people have the same view.

My view is that the horses have a ton
of wisdom that I don't really have to

have a lot of technical framework for
them to be able to do what they do.

I've taken a ton of workshops,
read a ton of books.

Had, you know, a few years of active
work in this kind of on the job training,

they did do something similar to, like,
any gala, you know, where the idea

was, you know, you bring the group in,
you divide the people up into groups.

You've got 4 loose horses in the arena.

We have set up a thing in the
middle, a circle, you've got

to get that horse in the circle
without, you know, how do you do it?

That was kind of, you know, so it
was kind of teaching people how

to work as teams and and stuff
like that, but it wasn't always.

Utilizing in that scenario, the wisdom
of the horses and allowing the horses

to be as involved in the process.

And what I've found is in the
way that I, I partner with them,

they don't need a lot of direction.

Rupert Isaacson: They being the client,

Christine Dickson: meaning the horses.

Okay.

I just, you know, and, and I
do have to have a framework

to set things up, obviously.

And I have to have an idea of
what I'm, I'm trying to get, but I

don't know what is going to happen.

You asked me a question about about
how people then have these moments

of realizing that they're projecting.

And I had a woman come out really,
really, I really liked her.

She was really cool.

And she wanted to work with the horses.

With me and

she was very intuitive, very smart

and I just, you know, there is, you
have to kind of, I think if you have

too much, if I have too much of a,
I want to do these things, right?

A framework, then I'm not going to be
as in the moment to, to sense and follow

my intuition about what the next step
should be because I'm going to have

my checklist that I gotta get done.

And we started off with the whole.

In the arena writing about what
you think about each horse,

and she was really spot on.

She was very good at that.

And then we ended with, I had her go
into a 24 by 24, like, little paddock

stall with my mule and a brush.

And I just said, just try this.

I want you to brush him, but I want you to
I want you to be in connection with him.

I want you to be telling him about
what you're doing and talk to him.

Talk to him as though he can understand
you and you can share with him anything,

anything you're thinking or feeling,

anything that you want
him to get out of this.

And I just left her there and I went
far enough away where I, she knew I

couldn't hear anything, but that I could
still kind of see what was happening.

And she did that for like 15, 20 minutes.

And then that ended and we
came back into my office

and she was, she seemed
like she was smiling.

She was happy.

And so we, we talked about a few things.

And then I asked her at the end,

what is your biggest takeaway from today

and what she said, like, just blew me
away because I wasn't expecting it.

She hadn't shared any of this.

And she said, you know, I've
been in therapy for 30 years.

And for 30 years, I've had therapists
telling me that I take everything

personally, and then I have to stop,
you know, the, the ideas to stop trying

to see myself through other people's eyes.

I'm always worried about what
other people think of me.

I'm always everything I do
is to create this image, you

know, and then I'm devastated.

If I think somebody thinks poorly
of me and I, and they're like, just

be in your body, be in your body.

And she said that having that time
with him and observing him that day

and talking to him about this is that
what she realizes that even though

he was low man on the totem pole, he
didn't care because he was fully being

himself and that was who he was and there
was nothing right or wrong about it.

It just was.

It was right because that was him being
fully himself and he did not care.

He had no awareness at all.

He was happy and she finally
understood what those therapists

were trying to say to her because
she saw it exemplified in him.

And it's like all of that teaching
just finally all lined up inside

her psyche and she got it.

Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.

You know, I was having a rather similar
conversation with someone today.

We were working with my herd and
working on classical dressage stuff.

But as you probably know, we do that with
a view to creating horses that can also

work with people to make them feel better.

And

this person correctly pointed out
that the horse that had been the most

fiery under saddle in a good way was
now was, was low on the totem pole.

And I said, it's true,
but he didn't used to be.

He used to be top dog and he
took a backseat 18 months ago.

And that was who he was then.

But there was a certain amount of
stress involved in that for him.

He had to kind of be in control
because to be top dog is actually not

just about getting the food first.

It's about, you're
supposed to be vigilant.

You're the one who has to make sure all
the other horses are okay, basically.

And Now, he's stepped down from
that role as another horse has come,

younger horse has come into that role.

And as you say, he doesn't care.

He, there's no sense of despair.

That, Oh my God, I used to be, you
know, the top dog and now I'm, you

know, not and under saddle, he's
just the same old, Hey, Hey, Hey.

And then when he gets in the,
in the field or in the pen,

he's like, yeah, I'm, I'm here.

That's fine.

It's fine.

And would that we could now looked
at it myself and kind of went, gosh,

you know, that's beyond wisdom.

That's, that's happiness because
that's just to be okay where you are.

You know, we could wish for such peace.

It's peaceful, I think.

Okay.

You came to Horses Latish and again, I
keep promising listeners, please hang

with me because we are going to go
into Christine's story of how she got

here, which you kind of need to hear
But when you come into Horses Latish,

you've got to have mentors, right?

So even though so I'm always
when people say oh Roo, you know,

why should I learn from you?

I say well because actually I've got
good mentors So if you're if you're

learning from me, you're actually
learning from you know, this person

and this person and this person said
my You know, say it's in the dressage

thing, then that would be the Valenza
family in Portugal, who I know you've

gone out to visit and seen the amazing
stuff they do and blah, blah, blah.

Who are your mentors?

Who brought you to your horse
knowledge that you can offer your

horses to people, your herd to people?

Christine Dickson: I so I, as I said,
I started reading the Tao of Equus.

I just devoured everything.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But that doesn't tell
you how to keep horses.

That tells you what you'd like to do with
horses, but that doesn't tell you how.

Right.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Yeah.

So is that what you're asking about?

How

Rupert Isaacson: did you
learn your horse skills?

Christine Dickson: Oh yeah.

Okay.

So it's kind of a funny story.

Okay.

So in 2016 Before everything
for me really took off,

I was, I had read a book called You
Are a Badass by Jen Sincero, and what's

funny is that my ego at the time, because
I had read all of these books, you

know, I, I was the shelf help master.

And all of the really heady ones, all the
Eckhart Tolles, and the Gary Zukausky of

the soul, and all these very deep books.

And then here's this book, You Are a
Badass by Jensen Sharer that I'm listening

to on Audible, and she's such a dork.

She's so, has, and, and self
proclaimed, like, she has these jokes

that are like, dad jokes through it.

She's talk everything she's talking
about are things like I already

know that I remember being so like
arrogant in the beginning of listening

to this book I was like, this is
like Self help 101 for people, you

know, I I already know this stuff

So silly the thing about it being
delivered in such a fun silly, which you

might identify with light hearted Huh?

Not you.

Yeah.

Not, not at all.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Right.

Right.

Fun, silly, lighthearted,
jokey, dorky way.

It made it accessible to me.

Suddenly this was something I wasn't
just like intellectually pondering and,

and, you know, from this existential
place, this was someone that was

showing how she did these things
and, and, and took in these, these

teachings and applied them to her life.

In a really clumsy and not perfect way.

And it just made it accessible to me.

So, listening to that book, in
the middle of listening to that

book, it's all about taking action.

What action are you taking?

I want to work with horses,
but I don't have the money.

I don't have any horses.

I don't have any access to horses.

What, what can I do?

Like, what can I do?

So I decided to get in the car.

And take the two hour, two and
a half hour drive up to flag is

up farms, which is Monty Roberts
place, which was up the coast.

I know that his farm is open to people
visiting and it's a beautiful drive.

And I was like, I'm just going to do that.

So I did, I went up there, I mean,
walked around again, petting some noses.

And I came back and that night

I did a, I co produced a
documentary with friends.

Called American street kid, which
is about homeless youth in the U.

S.

And we were, we had a nonprofit that came
out of that called spare some change.

And our nonprofit was being featured
at a at like a band showcase downtown.

So we were going to be the nonprofit.

In the entryway with our stuff
and our little table and it was

me and my friend who was one of
the producers michelle kaufer?

So Michelle and I were sitting
at the table that night.

She's like, hey, what did
you what'd you do today?

I said, well, you know, I took this
drive up to see these horses because

you know I really want to get involved
in this equine assisted coaching and

stuff and I don't know how, you know
I don't know how that's gonna happen.

And she's like, wait a minute.

I know somebody that I think
I know somebody that does that

Well, that's somebody That she
thought she knew was Katie Nelligan

now, I don't know if you've ever
heard of Katie Nelligan, but

she's been on works podcast.

She, the reason Michelle knew her is
because Katie Nelligan used to work

in marketing at Lionsgate films.

Katie Nilligan had left Lionsgate
to start doing equine assisted

therapy, learning, coaching.

And so Michelle hooks me up with Katie.

Katie is work, her, her whole
setup is 25 minutes from my house.

We decide to meet.

I took some workshops with Katie.

Katie introduced me to Esther Bernstein,
who runs Sapphire Sanctuary at the time.

And so I started volunteering
because I was like, I need

to immerse myself in horses.

I don't know anything about
body language of horses.

I don't know anything
about the care of horses.

So I volunteered at Sapphire fast forward.

I don't know, eight months and
the property that Sapphire was

running out of is in foreclosure.

All the horses need to go.

And I adopt one of the horses.

Sapphire took their, they just ran
their operation out of this property.

They didn't own it, so they just moved
their operation, but I took on one of

the horses that the property had owned.

Fun fact, that property was so depressing.

It had people living
out of the cars on it.

It was, it was just a
mess for sad, sad horses.

That's the property I live in now.

That property, if you had told me in
2016 that I would live there one day,

I would ask how much you hate me.

Because, there was the joke was
there's not enough sage in the world.

To clear the energy out of that place,
but the land is you people talk about

they come here and they feel it.

They feel there's a spiritual aspect
to this little tiny corner that I'm in.

And so when it got foreclosed
on a construction company took

it, they gutted everything.

They cleaned everything
out and eventually.

Amazingly enough, here I am,

but I learned about
horse care through Esta.

She was my mentor and then over time I got
other mentors and learned from more people

and more people found work, Schiller.

And just that's why I said,
like, I can't ever imagine.

I don't think if I'm in horses
for 30 more years that I'll

ever consider myself an expert.

In horses because it's so humbling
like no matter how much I feel like I

learn there is a sea of knowledge that

Rupert Isaacson: Well, and
that's that's all of us, you

know that there's a really good.

Quote from the great 18th century
classical dressage master francois He

wrote what Which is basically if you do
dressage today, that's my What you're

trying to do and he was the keeper of the
royal stables for the French king in the

early 18th century And he was approached
by a nobleman to train his son And he said

the nobleman said to La Guernière, you
know, just you know, turn him into a good

horseman He doesn't have to be like, you
know, a total equier as you'd say like a

total expert he just you know, they can
sort of show the horse where to put his

feet, you know and La Guernière said ah
Yeah, the very same thing I myself have

been trying to do this past 60 years.

I love it.

So no, we're all, you
know, constant beginners.

All right, here you are now on
this amazing What do you call it?

Christine Dickson: Raven sun ranch,

Rupert Isaacson: Raven sun ranch.

And it's in,

Christine Dickson: it's in
Lakeview Terrace, California.

So I'm kind of, you know,
nobody knows where Lakeview

terraces, but Burbank is not far.

So it's in the East Valley in the

Rupert Isaacson: so it's sort of in
those, that hilly bit that isn't the

Hollywood Hills, but it isn't the
valley, but sort of is that bit where

they do actually quite a lot of filming.

Christine Dickson: Actually,
Patrick Swayze, his place used

to be a couple blocks away.

I

Rupert Isaacson: sort of know a
little bit where you're talking about.

It's a sort of a little hidden gem there.

Okay.

You also mentioned this film, American
Street Kid, which I've just been

looking up as you've been talking.

Impressive.

You don't make a film like that,
get involved in a project like that

without some sort of life experience.

So now I want to dial the right number.

Listeners right back.

Okay.

Now I want the buyer.

Where are you born?

You know, you talked about, oh, I was
in this shitty relationship and you

know, I now I sort of, I'm a client with
horses walking up and down breezeways

of barns to feel better, which is a
great thing for people like us to hear

because I think we can forget sometimes
as practitioners of the equine stuff that

simply being around the horses is healing.

You know, we all know this of course,
but we're, you know, we, we get

for the best of reasons, you know.

Tied up with trying to provide the
service that we provide and sometimes

we forget actually it's just being
there is, you know, sometimes enough

Letting the horses do their thing just by
being who they are But okay that shitty

relationship that you're talking about.

I think you're talking about how people
survive relationships I know that you're

being rather modest about some of the shit
you've had to go through in order to reach

the point where you can help other people
going through their shit, basically.

Can you just talk through whatever
you feel to talk through that helped?

Because, again, a lot of us that are
coming into this equine assisted world,

we're coming from vastly different
backgrounds, and, of course, you can't

be a perfect person Human being alive
on planet Earth for more than a certain

amount of time without going through
some trauma It's just part and parcel of

the experience of being on the planet.

However

Certain types can be
more acute than others.

So talk us through Where you begin and
then bring us up to now and then why

hypnotherapy and then I we haven't touched
at all on the eye stuff and That listeners

is how I really connected with Christine
She did her eye thing which he's going

to tell us about with me and it healed
Some stuff in me that needed healing.

Bring us please from where you
start to where you end Up to

now through all that, please.

And then perhaps how it now informs
what you do with the horses.

Christine Dickson: Sure.

I'll try to, I'll try not to turn this
into a boring recount of my childhood.

Like, we'll hit on the highlights.

That's the highlight reel.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: Where I was born
was in Cleveland, Ohio, but that's just

my mom was a hippie and my father was
just getting out of the Vietnam war.

But there's a lot of addiction,
a lot of alcoholism in my family

and what I've learned as an adult.

There was a lot more mental health issues.

Then I realized because
that was my normal.

I didn't have anything to
compare my growing up to a quote,

unquote, healthy growing up.

So, this has been an ongoing discovery
for myself, but my mother just was

not healthy enough to raise a child.

So my grandmother through court order
took me from her when I was 2 and a half

due to neglect.

And other issues.

So

I, you know, I kind of grew up really
knowing what it's like to feel like you

don't really have a place of belonging.

My grandmother did her
best and she was wonderful.

I am grateful to her every day, but
you know, I wanted to be in a family

with other kids and siblings and
young parents who did fun things and.

I did get some of that by going to my
aunts in summers and, and holidays, but

I think that there was also, there was a,
a, a fear of the adults in my life of what

I turn out to be like my mother, because
as I grew up my mother's mental health

issues and her manipulation and violence.

And chaos just grew

and she kept having children.

There's five of us with
five different fathers.

So it was, you know, always managing the
train wreck that my mother was creating.

So

fast forward to when I was
in, I lived with my aunt.

In my freshman year and halfway into
my sophomore year and you know, to, to

protect people in my family, I won't go
into exactly what happened, but there

was a series of events that happened
and lies told that cast me into.

A view of looking like I was, you
know, you're just like your mother.

I got thrown out of their house
ended up at my grandmother's.

My mother at the same time found
herself homeless and was living at my

grandmother's pregnant with my sister,
Katie, and with my young sister, Kimmy.

Being about I guess she was
probably like five or six and so

the idea was I was gonna live with
my mother So I get moved in with my

mother and I'll just fast forward to
After my sister was born a few months

later My mother was itching to get back
to the bar one of the drinking buddy

when I didn't want to go alone So she
would leave my little sisters with

the neighbor and take me to biker bars
When I was 15, 16, around that age and

I mean, when I talk about this stuff,
I have to tell you, it's like I'm

talking about a movie I saw because
it's so bizarre to me how much

happened in such a small period of
time and how absolutely insane it was.

You know, by bringing
me to these biker bars.

I mean, I had guns put in my face, I was
in high speed chases I was in vans with

strange men, like, my mother would leave
me with strange men, the fact that nothing

terrible happened to me is, I swear I
have guardian angels watching over me

because the, the situations I was put in,

and that the fact that that stuff
didn't happen is, is just insane.

But.

When you have a young teenager who
is living in this chaos, who is

defiant, I was very defiant, I was
very angry about a lot of things.

And I never had a father, and I meet
this older man who thinks I am just

the best thing since sliced bread.

And takes me under his wing, and
I fell madly in love with him.

I was 16, he was 34.

And,

you know, I haven't
shared this before, but

the first time I ever did a drug other
than smoking weed, which I hated because

it just made me paranoid I didn't get
the attraction was with my mother my

mother and the group of people that she
associated with were into snorting meth.

And so that was given to me when I
was about, I think I was 16 is around

the time I met my kid's dad and so

we, I would go off to weekends
with him and we would do math

and I just was enamored with it was
followed him off the ends of the earth.

Like, he was.

My God in a way, you know, he was
everything and he was in the fact that

he was scary on some really primitive
level Because I felt so hurt by the

rejection of my family and the people
that I loved and the position I was in

that I think on some level the scariness
of him made me feel safe, you know,

because he was strong and Nobody was
going to hurt me if I was with him

and one day when we had been away
we would go on these like drives

and I never knew what he was doing.

You know, I, we get a hotel
somewhere, I'd be left at the hotel.

He would go visit people or do
whatever he did, or I'd sit in the

car outside of people's houses.

We're driving back.

He's crashing next to me.

So he's like nodding off.

I was doing the driving, but I
didn't have a driver's license.

And we got pulled over and
yeah, turns out there was five

pounds of meth in the trunk.

And that caused a complete

jumping of tracks for my life.

I was a juvenile, so I went to juvenile
hall and I didn't even know I was there.

I didn't know there was anything in it.

I didn't know why I thought the reason
I was held was because when my mother

was mad at me, she had reported me
as a runaway because she didn't want

me to go away with him for a weekend.

And so she never took that off.

So I thought I was being arrested because.

I was still on the books as a runaway.

When I figured this out,

I didn't know what to think.

I was more dependent on him now because
this was his world, you know, he

was, he had been arrested a million
times before and I needed him now

to help me and it kind of forged me.

In this relationship and when the
government was going to move to certify

me as an adult we went on the run

and I lived for four and a half
years under aliases and moving and.

I had two kids under aliases and
during that time, he became addicted

to drugs and became more and more
terrifying and abusive and I felt I

had nowhere to go because if I went
home, I would be arrested and I, my

family didn't either have the money
or the knowledge of how to navigate

the judicial system in this country.

And.

The, and during this time, he was
actually going back and showing up for

his cases because he, the search was, it
was like an illegal search and seizure.

So he was, he ended up winning
the case after 4 and a half years

on the fact that they didn't
have a warrant to search the car.

They didn't have, they did a lot of
things because they knew who he was.

So, you know, my family found
out, no, I'm, I'm jumping.

So

he wins the case.

I had spent from 18 to 22 and a half with,
you know, no friends, no, but like, no

life just on hold waiting and then living
with this really unpredictable human.

And so I was so excited to move home
and so we did I kind of took him

driving and streaming because I was,
you know, Moving back, I was going

to have a life and what we didn't
know was that five pounds of meth in

the trunk is also a federal offense.

So, even though he had won a state case,
the feds had charged him in a sealed

indictment, which meant that when we
moved back, we were being surveilled

for a year, followed in airplanes and
helicopters and all kinds of crazy

stuff, phones tapped, all of that.

And one day there was a knock on
the door and it was the police.

And all of a sudden the agents came
out from the woods, they came out

from behind the barn, they came out
from everywhere, and I was on the 11

o'clock news, that's how my family
knew, so it was a huge bust, huge bust,

Rupert Isaacson: and What were
they busting you for at that point?

Because the 5 pounds of
meth was years before.

Christine Dickson: Well, it was still
that char, so here's, yeah, there's

so much to the story that when I try
to whittle it down I can miss bits.

Key pieces.

So because the 5 pounds of meth
was also a federal offense.

It's like new charges, even though
he won state, those state charges.

Now he's facing the same.

We're both facing the same charges.

Same exact crime, but now from a federal
level, but they had also surveilled

him and the during those 4 and a half
years that we were living on the run,

he was actually manufacturing meth.

Rupert Isaacson: I see.

Christine Dickson: In order
to finance us to live.

And he had friends and people he knew that
were working, turned against him because

they had got caught for other things.

So.

There was informants.

This

Rupert Isaacson: is
breaking bad, basically.

Christine Dickson: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: And I think he
became addicted because when you,

when you make meth in its liquid
form, when you're making it it

will go right through the skin.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: And because he didn't
wear gloves, he was constantly getting it

and then he, and then would want more than
start doing, you know, it was a process.

So, but things were, even though we
had moved back and even though he was.

Yeah, it was, it was really bad.

So I remember they drove us down.

I got driven down to the Philadelphia
they call it pick it's it's the

county jail and there were five
wards and 80 women on a ward.

And I,

everyone, all the women in there thought
I was in there for DUI, cause they had

no idea why this thing was happening.

You know, 23 year old girl that
looks like she's 15 is doing in jail.

And then they saw the news.

And when I woke up, I remember
the first day waking up in there.

And the craziest thing was that
other than my children who were

staying with friends, other than
that, I felt like I had been saved.

Like the thought was, it's finally over.

Because I didn't think I would
ever be able to leave him.

I don't know how I would ever get away.

He was terrified.

And he, you know, there
was lots of threats.

So I was free.

I was in jail and I was free.

And so it took 15 months.

I had to plead guilty to
20 something felonies,

but he agreed to plead
guilty to get me out.

Rupert Isaacson: So he
did the decent thing.

Christine Dickson: Absolutely.

He pled guilty.

Got 10 years to get me out
and back to our children.

Yes, he did.

Rupert Isaacson: But ultimately, despite
the threats, despite all that, when Well,

Christine Dickson: that's the thing

Rupert Isaacson: Bush came to shove, he

Christine Dickson:
That's the thing, Rupert

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting

Christine Dickson: That's it, that
this is what makes people stay

in relationships sometimes too,
is because people aren't all bad.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

Christine Dickson: Right?

So we cling on to these aspects.

these crumbs or these pieces that
we go, well, these don't add up.

Like this is a person, this
is a stand up person, right?

But yet they're my biggest threat.

Rupert Isaacson: Did he
subsequently reverse and then

come and become a threat again?

Or from that point on, was he
always kind of on your side?

Christine Dickson: He was,

he wanted to maintain control over me.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: From jail through.

Rupert Isaacson: So it
wasn't completely clean.

Christine Dickson: So.

Which then started me having to move a lot
and feeling like I was being sought after.

So

Rupert Isaacson: you sort of
had to go on the run again?

Christine Dickson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And
how long did that last?

Christine Dickson: Years, years.

What was interesting is that

I sometimes would question
whether I was just being paranoid.

But, you know, he had put
that paranoia in me too.

He had told me one time that if
people, if certain bad people knew or

believed and thought that I knew how
to make math, that they would kidnap

me in order to get that information.

So, and there was a lot of people that
were his friends that were not happy

that he pled guilty and that I got out.

And I found out years later that
there were places that I had left

and moved and within weeks they had
tracked me down to those places.

Now whether or not there was nefarious
intent or it was just about getting

me back to bringing the kids.

You know, I also just didn't really

want to be bringing my kids to
prisons all the time for visits.

And there was a lot of.

There was a lot of racism and, and
horrible views that I didn't want

them exposed to as young children,
you know, if, if they get exposed

to that as a, as young adults,
they already have the framework,

but I didn't want that for them.

Rupert Isaacson: What became
of this person in the end?

Christine Dickson: Oh yeah, so I
wish I could say that that was the

last bad relationship I had, but I
had to do it again just to be sure.

But.

In probably like

2005, I'm thinking he tracked me down.

He got, had got out of jail
and his girlfriend was like,

kind of like super hacker.

Internet genius and anyway,
she tracked me down.

She had like Google aerial views
of the house I was living in and,

and he convinced his daughter
who I always loved very much.

He had four children before we
were together and his daughter

was coming out to California.

With her fiancee and he convinced
her to come and reconnect with me.

So that was a trippy day within minutes
to be on the phone with him after not

talking to him for years and years.

But he I don't think he ever really
got over his propensity for meth.

And I think he was
probably still doing it.

He, in 2014 15 he died of a heart attack.

Rupert Isaacson: Did you feel
a great sense of relief and

did that make you feel guilty?

Christine Dickson: I didn't feel
relief to be honest with you.

Because I had already reclaimed my life.

I, he didn't hold any kind of fear for me.

I felt sadness for my children who
had been trying their best to have

some form of relationship with him.

You know, nobody goes, he ended up
spending more than 10 years in jail

and nobody goes through that without
having it affect them in very deep ways.

He was unable to be present at all.

He talked at, at you more than to you.

They had a really hard time connecting
with him to have some kind of idea

of who their father was and it was
very hard on them when he died.

Not because there was a great
love there, but because of what

the loss of what could have been.

And I just felt sadness
because of the choices he made.

He could have had so much more love
in his life and such a better impact.

But, you know, there's an
aspect of him that knew that

he wasn't well, and, you know,

that it was probably good that
he wasn't around the kids when he

was young, when they were young.

Rupert Isaacson: You're a young mother,
you have your kids on the run, then

you're arrested and you're in jail for 15
months while your children are very small.

Mm hmm.

How did you survive that?

That's enough to

take one down.

You know, talk us through
the survival process of that.

Christine Dickson: I had never
been away from my children.

I don't think I had ever spent
one night away from them.

We were very close.

And, When things like this happen,
like, with any disaster that natural

does, you know, everything slows down
and you just do what you need to do in

the moment and you don't have time or
the luxury to think about the future

or what, you know, and so I think that

once I had once they were picked
up from the police station.

My job was to not fall apart
in front of them and then I

could fall apart when they left.

And I'll never forget the first
conversation I had with my

daughter because she was, she
was four and or three, was she?

No, two and a half.

So she was, it was a couple months
before her fourth birthday and

the first phone call I had with her took a
few days to get to, but she was hysterical

and she was saying, come
get me mommy, come get me.

And I broke.

I just,

my knees buckled and

I, there was nothing I could do.

The only thing that I could
do was manage their care as

best I could from where I was.

Rupert Isaacson: How, how did you do that?

Where were they?

Christine Dickson: So, you
know, it wasn't perfect.

They were at first at.

Their dad's ex, their half
sister, brother, or their half

brother and half sister's house.

But there wasn't really a parent in
that house during the day, you know, it

was like the teenage kids and it wasn't
the, I'm hugely grateful because every

other woman that was in there with me,
their kids were taken into foster care.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, that was
going to be my question, how come they

weren't taken as wards of the state?

Christine Dickson: Because I had
someone that could come get them.

And because, you know, to be
honest with you it really could

have been, cause I was white,

really.

I mean, I, to think that that's
not doesn't play into people, into

things would be, you know, ignorant.

The other women that I was in jail, they
were in jail with me, the women in the

federal system were almost all Latina.

And a lot of them didn't speak
English and yeah, and their kids

were taken into foster care.

I don't know if it's
because they didn't have,

didn't have representation, if they didn't
have people that they could go with.

I don't, I don't know.

I did have a lawyer, pretty.

Quickly.

So,

but they ended up with them and
then I had to get them out of there

because it wasn't a good place.

And they ended up going to a friend of
my exes who had, we had visited before

and they had a house and a pool and kids.

And from my perspective, it
was a stable home she stayed

home and took care of the kids.

He worked.

It turned out to not be as good of
an environment as I had hoped, but

other people that were trying to
step up, we're only willing to take 1

child and I was not separating them.

So the options weren't great.

But they were the best that I could get
and they could have been much worse.

But that's, that's, you know, I've lived.

One of the things that I think is
so important when you have something

like this happen in a family is
to take responsibility for your

role and to not be defensive.

I've never been, I've always tried
to raise my children with the

understanding that their experience
is their experience and that.

You know, we could talk about how I
was 16 when I met him, but I still

hold accountability for what happened.

And if they're ever upset with me or
frustrated or sad, that's their right.

And I'm, I don't defend myself.

I'm not here to change their mind.

I'm here to allow their
experience to be their experience.

And because of that, We don't
have an elephant in the room.

They don't feel that they can't tell me
how they feel because somehow it'll hurt

me so much I won't be able to take it.

So they hold it all in.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

When somebody shares a story that you,
like the one that you just shared,

it gives everybody else
permission to have lived their

lives too, if that makes sense.

And you,

you create healing.

By,

by sharing and what it also does, I
think, for, you know, those of us who are

working in the fields of mental health
is, you don't know who's walking through

the door and you don't know what fires
they have to put out in their lives.

All you can do is

let the horses do what they do.

And one cannot presume as a human
to, it's so interesting is that

we're all empathetic to each other.

We're social creatures.

We are basically empathetic
to each other, thank God.

But there's a limit to what we can

offer each other for healing because

of our own fires and egos and, and so
on the horse doesn't come with that.

And but by sharing a story like
that, you come very, very close

to the role that the horse does,
which is you're saying, here I am

having lived this experience.

This allows you to be human too.

I know that's not necessarily what
you're consciously saying, but.

I think when I think it's how it
gets received and I think that this

brings a very similar kind of healing
to the type of healing a horse

would bring or nature would bring.

So for that, I'm extremely grateful.

And I can see why somebody coming to
your barn, this being the point of it

sort of doesn't matter that your equine
experience might be somewhat recent.

With the type of experience
that you've had in life, you are

very well set up to help people.

Now, you then go from this
experience and some others

into therapeutic modalities.

I presume to some degree
to help yourself out too.

And you find yourself with hypnotherapy
and then you find your way to IEMT.

Please talk to us about why
and tell us what they do.

Christine Dickson: Yes.

I do want to say 1 thing 1st,
because I realized you asked me

a question that I never answered.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: Or
never fully answered.

And which was around the the idea of how.

What would my maybe, what would
I want to share with people who

are doing the aquine work and.

I think the biggest thing I see, and it
doesn't matter how many degrees you have.

Or what initials are behind your name.

I see this happen a lot and this is
where as any type of mental health

work or any type of supportive work
for people is so important to really,

really develop a sense of when we're
projecting onto people because we, if

we allow ourselves to do that, we're
going to get it wrong at some point and

the way I see this happen is there's,
there's Two ways in my experience.

One is,

my mother

was something I survived

and how beautiful is it that
there are people in this world

that can't even comprehend that.

And

there's people in this world
that get very uncomfortable.

If you say anything negative about
your mother, if you tell people that

you have had to limit your exposure
to your mother, they can't understand.

And I have had that happen in
with people who were doing quote

unquote, like force therapy type
work where they projected onto me

this idea that my family.

Was my, were my ancestors and they
were part of me and I had to be

grateful for them and I had, and
it was, it was not very informed.

Put it that way

and I think that this is.

I've heard of this struggle with
other people who have had parents

that are so toxic that sometimes no
contact is the only way to protect

yourself and people don't understand
and it gets people very uncomfortable.

So, being able to see how we don't
project that in our work is, is important.

The other one is when you've been
in a pathological love relationship

or even pathological relationship
as an adult child with a parent.

There can be really
unhealthy things that happen.

One of the things is that the way
pathological relations work is very

similar to horse training, or at least
the, the, the older model of horse

training that is shifting, which is the
idea of pressure and release pathological

relationships become a pressure and
release modality, which means that the

uncomfortableness or the anger or the
manipulation that's trying to happen.

From the person with the pathological
issue becomes a pressure that

the only way we feel safe.

Is that we have to relieve that pressure
that could mean paying their bills.

It could mean agreeing
to not see our friends.

It could mean a bunch of things.

And those don't necessarily go
away when you separate from that

person because it's a power and
they're trying to to wield and.

For a long time, mental health
professionals did not understand the

dynamic and they would further shame
the person who was being manipulated

because they're going, wait a minute.

I don't understand.

You're not even together anymore.

You're not even together anymore
and you, and you've just paid

their car payment for them?

Like, what are you talking about?

The person already feels shame
for the fact that they did it.

The threat of not doing it and the
pressure of being able to resist

all of the manipulation and all
the ways that that person has

shown you that they will burn it
to the ground if you do not comply.

Well, then it's a choice.

That's not really doesn't
feel like a choice.

Do I want to die on this hill?

Do I want to invite this in?

It takes time and Sometimes those are
the relationships like these are not

clear cut These types of relationships
are ones that people do that women

do get killed the the you know People
will say in abusive relationships

Oh, why didn't you just leave?

Or when you read about women who
poisoned or, or, you know, ultimately

killed their abuser and they'll
go, why didn't they just leave?

They could have just left.

And what they don't understand
is, and this, this isn't just to

women, this is men too, men are in
these relationships as well is that

the point to which you are most
vulnerable is when you decide to leave.

Because you have started to demonstrate
that you're no longer under the spell and

you've connected to the fact that you have
power and that's the thing that has been

fought, has been the whole MO is for you
to never believe that you have agency.

And so when you start to believe
that that needs to be taken down,

and when you take that action is when

the big retaliations can happen.

So it's not true that people can
just walk out and people don't have

the support that there, it just
doesn't exist in a lot of ways.

So

this is the one thing I wanted to
say about the people that show up.

Because a lot of times people who are in
these relationships will show up for help.

And you have to be careful of what help
that you're suggesting, because if you

don't know the actual situation and you
suggest someone leave it without proper

support, which is going to definitely go
beyond your, your skill set, they could be

getting into a more dangerous situation.

And this is a type of brainwashing
that takes years to undo.

It's not intellectual.

They already know they're
being manipulated.

They know that things don't
add up and that they're stuck.

They just don't know how to get out of it.

Because it's a grind.

You got ground down.

So that, that is something that
I feel very passionate about.

And that I would say anybody,
any other person doing this work

that has any questions, if I
would be happy to answer them.

Answer.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is
going to be at the end of this.

I'm sure I, and I'm sure a lot
of people listening to say, can

we come to you for mentorship?

Because

without a doubt, there are people who
are facing this and as you say, it's

male and female, as you say, it's all
walks of life, as you say, you know,

and I don't think there are many people
with the skill set that you have who

can advise on these things like you can.

So we, we will get to you.

There will be, so listeners, there will
be a contact that you can go to Christine

and get further mentorship on this.

Talk to us about the hypnotherapy now
and talk to us about the IEMT, please.

And then how does that inform recovery?

Christine Dickson: So hypnotherapy,
we talked about the 88 percent being

the subconscious and that's where
our programming is the, the ways of

seeing ourself and the world that
let's say we didn't consciously choose.

They were, you know, downloaded into us as
children and society, all of these things.

So the beauty of hypnotherapy is that
you get access to that subconscious

programming so you can start to make
suggestions into the subconscious mind.

To create knowns in the subconscious that
will support your conscious decisions.

So, if you know, if I want to like
working out, you know, if I want to,

I want to start working out, well,
it's going to be helpful to have some

suggestions made to the subconscious
that connect you to the subconscious.

Feelings, the why, the feelings of after
a workout, the feelings of why I want to

do this, what I'm, I'm reaching for health
wise or body wise and feeling strong or

what I'll be able to do and how I'll be
able to support my body versus the pain

being the forefront thought of the actual
working out of how we don't want to do it

or it's boring or it's this or it's that.

So it's kind of like, you
know, eating, eating foods.

That you don't want to eat is very
similar, sweets and stuff like that

is very similar to drinking alcohol
because we want that positive feeling

that we get right in the beginning
and our mind completely gaslights us

about what the effect is afterwards.

It doesn't even show it to us.

Don't think about what's afterwards.

Just let's just focus
on that initial feeling.

And then after we do, it's like,
we wake up and go, now we're

dealing with the after effects.

And it's like, why was I, I
was like under a trance before.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: dopamine,
dopamine is a strong thing, right?

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Yes.

Yeah.

So that's, so that's the, that's
just a little aspect of hypnotherapy.

IAMT, you know, I've, I've, I've been
exposed to a ton of other modalities.

What does IAMT

Rupert Isaacson: stand for?

Christine Dickson: It's
Integral Eye Movement Therapy or

Integral Eye Movement Technique.

IAMT So,

Rupert Isaacson: how's it work?

Christine Dickson: How it works is

our mind's body, our mind's body.

Wow.

Our mind's First and foremost
goal is to keep us alive.

Rupert Isaacson: I love our mind's body

Christine Dickson: Our mind's body.

It was it was almost like a

Rupert Isaacson: body.

Our mind does think of
our body as its property.

Yeah, it's very interesting Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay So

Christine Dickson: now the interesting
thing is that because it wants to keep

us alive, it wants us to avoid pain
because logically pain can lead to

death, but the mind doesn't differentiate
between physical and emotional pain.

Pain is pain and pain needs to be avoided.

So the way I see it is that when,
if you know anything about internal

family systems or I have IFS, the
premises is that when we're a kid.

This almost internal family gets formed
in our minds and the predominant.

Role is the manager and
this is what it looks like.

I'm a little kid.

I'm three years old.

I'm wide open, right?

I'm wide open.

Hey, I don't have any defenses.

I don't have any protections up yet And
I find a frog in the backyard and i'm so

excited and I take my frog in the house
and i'm like mommy Mommy, look at my frog.

Look what I found and she's like
I told you to get out of here

I'm in the middle of something.

Why are you such a pain in the ass
all the time get outside and play?

Well, all of that openness,
that is like a collapse.

It's a collapse.

It is a deep, deep wound.

And in that moment, a manager gets formed,

because we don't want to
feel that pain ever again.

And the manager goes, stupid,
look what you did, stupid.

Don't do that again.

Just play with yourself.

You don't need anybody else.

And that manager from that point
on is always looking for ways that

that stupid part of you is going
to be open and get hurt again.

And that part of you that got hurt
becomes what they call the exile

and it gets put in a box and it gets
thrown in the dungeon and it is exile.

We cannot trust that part of you.

And as we all know, children learn
how to regulate their nervous

system through co regulation.

And when you don't have a parent.

That you can go to when either you're
super happy or super sad or super scared

that will hold you and listen to you and
let you use their nervous system to bring

yourself back down and you go, well, I'm
just going to have to do it for myself.

You can't do co regulation for yourself,
but what you can do is you can dissociate

and that starts to feel like a superpower

and you become more and more intellectual
and you intellectualize things and you

go, you know, that doesn't hurt me.

Yeah, I don't get bothered by that stuff.

It's not that you don't.

It's that you have dulled that to the
point where when it comes in, it's so

automatic that that gets put in a box and
put away that you never even experience

you bypass the whole experience.

So we have, we all have
all these managers, right?

So this is how I describe IEMT.

So

now when that happened, right,
let's imagine that what you heard

that manager is saying is that
nobody wants to hear from you.

That creates kind of a tuning
fork within your psyche.

It's like a, it's like a lens.

Every situation after that point
is going to be scanning for how

no one wants to hear from you.

If someone that, you know,
just says, Hey, what's up?

And like, and just walks
past you and keeps going.

It's not that they're busy.

It's not that they're it's that
they're avoiding it because

nobody wants to hear from you.

Right.

We go into every situation with this
anxiety that nobody wants to hear from me.

Every situation we see goes
to that lens and validates.

So now this memory that created
the manager, well, the mind

kept that memory as being sharp.

So what I mean by that is the
memory lives in the hippocampus,

but it has a direct link right
into the amygdala, which is

the nervous system, the body.

So mind and body are
connected in that memory.

You cannot intellectualize your way
out of the effects of that memory.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

There's going to be cortisol.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Yeah.

It's, it's, it's connected.

So

what I am T does is it's a, it's,
it's simplistic in its approach.

And the whole goal is to dial down
or disconnect that connection between

the hippocampus and the amygdala.

And the beauty of this is that when
you take the negative charge away

from that fast memory, You get to
now have perspective on the memory

because you're not activated.

When we're activated, our wise mind,
our ability to have perspective and,

and to see it from a bigger, see
the bigger picture is, is almost non

existent because we're activated.

Take away the activation.

We can use our own wisdom and our own
views to put perspective on something that

I don't know like it was so triggering.

And now, oh, wow.

Yeah.

God, my mom was doing that to all of us.

All the time.

She was so stressed out, you know,
and I know what was going on then.

And, and

yeah, I can see.

But, you know, like you just
start to see it differently.

And then all of those domino effect.

The domino effect of everything
that you built on top of that.

That all starts to fall away.

And.

This works amazingly because you know
what the thing is, is that the whole

system, this whole system was created
in our evolution to help us as children

when we're in an environment to survive
the adaptive child needs to adapt and

survive the environment, but those
tools that it created do not necessarily

service as adults when we have agency,

you can keep the wisdom
of a past experience.

Transcribed

without needing the charge.

So let's say you like
to apply this to horses.

Let's say you had a accident on a horse,
you know, you, you were riding your horses

and then you have this terrible accident
and you got really hurt or sometimes

you didn't even have to get really hurt.

Sometimes people have small accidents.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, they
make, it doesn't care that

threat is real or imagined.

That's the.

Getting a pretty score.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: And then now
you have anxiety about writing,

but then you have anxiety about
having anxiety because anxiety leads

to more crashes and more issues.

So, and then you're trying to
force yourself to not be anxious

or pretend that you're not anxious.

And then you have shame around
now that you feel bad about that.

And, and so being able to take away the
charge is just this It's an opening.

It's just, it creates an opening for
this, these charges to leave and the

wisdom and perspective to come in.

Rupert Isaacson: How do you bring
that into work with horses and people?

Are you doing this work with the rapid
eye movement, following your finger,

et cetera, while they're working with
the horse or on the horse, or you're

doing this away from the horse in
another, context, but it's the same

client and you're offering a knock on
an equine thing within your practice.

Christine Dickson: Yes.

And, and, and, you know, I will say that
the majority of my clients, we don't have

the equine part because they're virtual.

They live all over the place.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Christine Dickson: The only people

Rupert Isaacson: that you
can do this over zoom.

Christine Dickson: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: Do
you hear that everyone?

Christine Dickson: Yeah.

Most of this, most of my
work is done through zoom.

That's why Also that I say, like, the the
equine part isn't as big of a role because

it only I can only offer it to the people
that are that are in my area or I also do.

I do weekend intensives 1 on 1.

so people will come and
stay with me for a weekend.

And they will work with the horses, but

Rupert Isaacson: okay, I'm just
thinking I can imagine doing this.

on a horse.

I'm just now imagining being on a
horse in a nice situation with a nice

horse, with a horse moving nicely
underneath me, or perhaps a horse being

static and peaceful underneath me.

And you taking me through this
rapid eye movement way to dis, dis,

Remove the hippocampus
amygdala connection.

And if I am someone who likes that
environment, horses, perhaps I'll also

maybe like to do it under a tree perhaps.

I'll also maybe like to
do it in water, perhaps.

You know, people have their different

happy places, but obviously if wee
horse people, that's ponies I could see.

A double power because I could see,
I could see a subconscious reaction

going, Oh, well, I'm being listened
to because I've been placed in

the, even if it's by myself in the
environment, that is the best for me.

Sensorally, emotionally, and so on.

So I could see a real power in doing
this with the horse, but I could also

see what's great is that you could also
do this completely without because,

You're not always with the horse and as
you say, you can do this over distance.

What, what it seems that you're
describing here is a shamanic process.

So when I've had the experience with.

Shamans in indigenous cultures, there
is a, it's, it's usually conflict

resolution and that conflict is often
internal, but it can be also external.

So the shaman could be addressing
conflict within the group, for example,

or conflict between two people equally.

It's conflict.

You know, if there's a
health issue, that's still a

conflict, it's still a dilemma.

And the idea is to resolve that dilemma.

And I think that one of the things
which is tricky for us, all of us in our

culture, and by our culture I don't just
mean Europe and America, I mean everything

that is post agricultural in the world
and is not hunter gatherer, basically.

Anything that has gone through
this process of kind of, Becoming

processed in a funny way.

Removal from nature, which
is also a deep wound.

Is we've, we, we, we cannot be other
than mentally ill in that situation.

Because, so therefore we must all
be, because we're all suffering,

we're all animals in a cage.

And sometimes the cage is nicer than
the other cages, but it's still a cage.

And we lack community, and we lack
the, the good shaman, but we also

have gone from The predator being, or
the danger being, obviously the lion,

the tiger, the whatever, but also,
say, the elephant or the black mamba.

But not, in the hunter gatherer
culture, your fellow human.

And the, even though humans are as
funky in hunter gatherer life as they

are in non hunter gatherer life, there
is a process to defunkify and, keep

those conflicts cleansed so that the
community doesn't fragment and people

don't get eaten by hyenas basically.

Now we've replaced the hyena with
ourselves and this sends us mad

because it's not how it's supposed to
be and yet we have to navigate this.

And it's almost impossible.

It seems to me that what you're
describing particularly with

IEMT is a way to in our society

have that shamanic conflict
resolving cleansing reboot

that allows you to navigate and
that sounds incredibly useful.

What I can also say is,
you know, having tried it.

Because remember in Birmingham, I
was like, all right, then do it.

And you threw it and you did
take me through it and I was

like, oh, that did actually take
the sting out of that memory.

That's cra That's amazing.

And it was so And then you

Christine Dickson: overslept . Yeah.

It

Rupert Isaacson: was so, yes, exactly.

Yeah.

It's like, then I, yeah, then I slept.

Like I hadn't slept in, I don't know.

But the, so if people are coming into
equine assisted work, do you think, would

you recommend, because I think this is
something anyone can learn, right, IEMT,

would you, would you, would you recommend
that as, as a modality that those of

us who are working with mental health
should, you know, In whatever field

should should look at do you teach it?

Christine Dickson: So, Here's the
funny thing about amt is that when

it was first when it was first shown
to me I mean I was laughing because

I was like, what did you just do?

Like, that's crazy.

And I was like, I have to learn this.

And,

and so because it works so clearly
for me and it works so easily for

you, I had this vision of like getting
trained in it as being super easy.

Like that was really easy.

That was really straightforward.

It is not.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I can believe it.

Damn.

Christine Dickson: Because, because,
that's when everything goes right.

But remember we all have those
managers, and let me tell you something.

I've been working with someone where
I'm looking dead in the face of

their managers and their managers
are going, Oh, she thinks that

we're going to let her let this go.

That's hilarious.

I don't know what you think you
come here to do lady, but there's

no way you're getting past us.

Like you have to have, you have to have
all of the different ways that this can

go and know how to navigate through to
find Ways around these things because

I've had to go all different directions.

So because it was easy, like for me,
as, as with you and really direct,

like, I thought, oh, it's just going
to be learning about the questions

and how the, you know, to move
people's eyes and, and that'll be it.

But it's not to say that
if you do this work, that.

As you, as you've done it, you're
as a client that you can't take

aspects of it and do it for yourself.

And, and if you don't get the result,
you know, like, you're not going to hurt

yourself if you don't get the result.

That you're looking for, then
you would know that you maybe

need some extra help on that.

But yes, I think that once you
experience it a few times or maybe

more than a few, but like, then you
can get a feel for it and use it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Also, maybe you could, let's say
you're an equine practitioner.

You're listening to this.

You're thinking, well, you know, I
like the sound of this, but I haven't

got the time to, you know, I've got
to feed all my horses and I haven't

got the time to go learn this.

Modality, which Christina's just divulge
is perhaps a little bit trickier to learn.

We were hoping like everything,
but perhaps I could team up

with someone who has that, that
who has learned that modality.

And then perhaps we could join
forces within the practice.

Have that so let's say I mean obviously
I'm in Germany you're in California but

let's say you were down the road from me.

I could see saying Okay, Christine.

Could we join forces here?

I'm doing this thing.

This is this horse boy thing.

This is this movement method things is
this ticking thing Would you please can I

please send clients to you or could you?

Come sometimes in certain sessions
with certain people and bring

that resource to the table.

Is this, is it easy to find people
who are trained like you are in this?

Christine Dickson: It started
in the UK and so it is there's a

lot more practitioners in the UK.

It's really only recently starting to
get more and more attraction in the US.

I think right now I'm one of, one of
two listed practitioners in Los Angeles,

the other one being my daughter.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I thought it was more widespread.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Yeah, no, it's but
it's really, as you saw, like, you know,

with your own experience, it's really
getting traction now and people are,

are seeking it out because it works.

Rupert Isaacson: So someone
could say, you know, IEMT

practitioners or therapists near me.

Yeah, there's

Christine Dickson: a, because
once you get your certification,

you're listed on the website.

And so you, you can put, yes.

Like I actually had a client on
Saturday who found me through

reading about IEMT on Reddit.

And then Googled IAMT practitioners
in Los Angeles, and I came up

and that's how she found me.

So, yes, and, and, you know, you have
a lot of really good questions about

doing stuff more with the horses, right?

You know, these are all ways that, you
know, who knows if that, you know, it

doesn't, you don't have to have the
horses because this is an inside job.

You know, this is all about how you're,
you know, Your mind and body are

connected, but who knows ways that it
could be expanded through actually being

in the field with the horses or being
there's so many, so many different things

that you could try, you know, and I
we are planning we have been planning.

We're going to do it this year,
but now we're doing it next year.

Is a retreat where I'm kind of the on the
human realm and she's working on the horse

realm and by pairing up we get to support
people in the work that they're doing.

They want to do the work with the horses,
but we all know our own personal work

is just a Completely interwoven with
that so not only the mentoring stuff

and the other stuff, but if we come
up against something that is rooted in

that nervous system from a past memory,
we could clear it out in real time and

then what you're what what the people
are there to learn about the horses.

Doesn't have the roadblocks from
the internal barriers anymore.

Like everything can, can actually
sink in and be more accessible.

Rupert Isaacson: I think
we need to try this.

Okay.

So listeners with your permission,
Christine, should we decide to do

this and invite people to come on a.

Retreat like this in a workshop.

Let's do the horse side.

Let's do this side.

Oh, I can't do this side, but you can
do this side and let's see what happens.

Why don't we do one steak side
and one I'd be intrigued to

see what people come away with.

Maybe this would be something for
professionals, you know, that coming

from whatever side of the equine
assisted field to be exposed to this.

Something which we didn't get into, and
we haven't got time to get into it now,

because I think maybe we need to have
you on again is I know that you've done

a lot of work with addiction, people with
addiction, celebrities with addiction.

I know that you ended up
building a large practice.

That's had to, you know, you've had
to protect people's anonymities.

You've worked sort of at that level a
bit in Hollywood, and that's given you

a, an insight into How tricky it can be.

This word navigation comes up again to
help people who are in the public sphere

and therefore can't, you know, go out
there and be frank about what they're

facing and what they're dealing with.

Just because we're heading into
towards towards the sort of natural

end of this particular iteration, but
I think we had to bring you back on.

Can you just talk to
us a little bit about.

What that, how that has helped you,
where you have to sort of, in your

practice, where you have to help someone,
but you also have to kind of keep it

secret that you're helping them, that
you have to, you have to dance around.

You're talking about eggshells, you
know, that these are very real ones

suddenly, where you actually have to
protect the people that you're working

with, and at the same time, you know,
get them through what they're doing.

How has that particular, those
years of doing that, helped

you to help ordinary people?

More deeply because it just
adds a layer of complexity.

Christine Dickson: It does.

It does because, you know, a
lot of people who are artists in

entertainment are sensitive people.

And one of the things that I think
that we've seen really explode

around social media is that.

The dehumanizing of others and the fact
that celebrities, we would talk about and

weigh in on a celebrity's life in ways
that we would never do to someone that

we knew or someone's face, like it there.

It's just like

Rupert Isaacson: that's projection again.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Yeah.

It's very bizarre.

Social experiment that's, that's
really has, but it has real life

consequences depression, suicide and
addiction being some of the ways that

people end up succumbing to this mass.

Feeling energetically that you are
despised or ridiculous or shameful

on talented, whatever it is.

And, you know, I don't even pretend
that I know what that's like, but I can

say that when I did go through the rest
and was on the news and all of that

stuff and sitting in the courtroom and
in an unveil hearing the prosecutions

can say anything about you without.

And so the things that they
said were horrifying to me.

I wasn't prepared.

I didn't know any of that.

And it felt like, and this was in the
news, and I mean, it felt like you were

hated by the world and you were being
seen in a way that was not even true.

And it's a very trippy feeling to have
this like unknown, like faceless, you

know, Enormity that now suddenly sees
you has honed in on you and is projecting

this negative energy towards you.

So,

you know, there's a difference when
you're dealing with someone who is

a public figure in any way, because
in addiction, you talk about, you

know, there's a saying that says
you're only as sick as your secrets.

So there's an aspect of ownership of
being true that goes with healing, but

I can't tell someone else whether that's
what their experience is going to be

if they come out to the world and share
this aspect with them because it doesn't

look like a lot of that is always true.

Now, a lot of people who have done this
have found that the amount of support

they got way outweighed the negative
comments, but this is more about.

Navigating this internally and finding
the forgiveness and finding the freedom

and Knowing that that is your decision.

I'm

not sure if I answered that fully because
I kind of just lost my train of thought

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it sounds like what
it gives you is compassion and perspective

Christine Dickson: Yeah for sure for sure

Rupert Isaacson: and perhaps a

a greater level of it because you went
through it personally and then you

ended up having to help people who were
either also going through it personally or

in danger of going through it personally.

I think what you're talking
about here is kindness.

Christine Dickson: Empathy.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's easy to forget that section,
even in this line of work.

And God knows, you know, we horsey
people can be A bossy judgmental lot and

it can creep up without even noticing.

Christine Dickson: I
have a theory about that.

Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

Christine Dickson: And my theory
is, is that a lot of children

who grew up in dysfunctional
homes found solace in animals.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah.

Christine Dickson: But.

Did not learn nervous system regulation
healthy communication, which people

never think about learning communication.

We just think it's just downloaded to us,
but there's actually tools that you could

learn to really help your relationships
around healthy communication.

We didn't learn that.

We never felt what it was
like to have power agency.

So we, that feeling of being susceptible
to everyone else and everyone else's

thoughts comes with us into adulthood,
no matter how powerful we actually are.

So then our reactions to people
are oftentimes overblown.

We feel attacked by different opinions.

Questioning can feel threatened by
someone doing things differently or

seeing things differently judged you
know, it's that thing where we, we are,

we can become very in tune with our own
feelings or the feelings that we feel

the animal is having and have a lot
less compassion for the other person.

How many times you hear people say, I.

I love animals and I hate people.

Yet we're people.

You're a people.

We're all a people.

And so either you have a grandiose
version, view of yourself that feels

like you're the only good person in the
world and everyone else is terrible.

Or you have internalized a real negative
and unhealthy view of yourself as human.

And either way, it's, it's, you
know, you don't have community.

You don't have.

The beautiful aspects that you can
only get from having a relationship

with another human being.

Rupert Isaacson: Wise words.

And yeah, that is a statement you hear
so often and often from people who are

supposedly in the equine assisted field.

Or canine too, you hear that
with dog people too and so on.

And yeah, it does, that
one always gives me pause.

It's like, well then why are
you, why are you doing it?

Why are you working with people then?

You know, yeah, deep down we're all

searching for, crying for that connection.

And we know it's there,
we know it's possible.

And I wonder if that statement that
gets made is a way of, is actually an

unconscious statement of grief, when
saying, you know, I love animals but I

hate people, meaning, I seem to find with
animals what I can't find with people,

but what I know I ought to be able to find
with people, because they are my species.

And I feel this grief of being
unable to connect with people.

With my species and this is a
soul wound and I'm expressing

it with these words Even though
it's coming out in a weird way.

Does that make sense?

Christine Dickson: It's my it's my
sword and shield, you know I say

that Those walls that you built to
protect yourself Also keep you on

the other side of everything Yeah.

That you want.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Oi,

oi, oi.

Better saddle up and go for a
contemplative ride in the forest.

On my list for tomorrow.

Listen, Christine, it's been amazing.

I think there's more questions
have come up in my mind.

And I think, you know, as you know,
and some of our listeners know that we

have another podcast called Live Free,
Ride Free, and I think I'd like you

to please come on that and talk in a
more biographical way about how you've

managed to kind of self actualize.

From the equine side, I think.

Those of us listening definitely
are all very curious about the IEMT.

We're very curious about how you
bring what you've learned about

addiction and also hypnosis and so
into perhaps ways we can inform our own

practices and to do what we do better.

I certainly am always
looking for mentorship.

How do we find you?

How do we reach out to you?

How do we engage you to
help us learn this stuff?

Christine Dickson: Yeah, sure.

Well, my email address is On
the path, C as in cat, H as in

horse, T as in Tom, CHT at gmail.

com.

So it's on the path, CHT at gmail.

com.

My website is on the path coaching.

net and you can find me on social media.

Christine Dixon on Facebook.

I have an on the path on
Facebook business page.

I have.

Rupert Isaacson: People can reach
out to you for mentorship people.

People can.

Yeah.

Christine Dickson: Yeah.

And on Instagram, it's a it's
on the path underscore mentor.

And then I have a my personal is
Christine Dixon underscore on the path.

But yeah, you can find me
can mention me any way.

I mean, and we're

Rupert Isaacson: going to put these
links in, you know, on the written

thing at the end of this too.

Christine Dickson: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: but

yeah I'm certainly going to be
signing up for some mentorship.

I could use it.

Christine Dickson: I've had the idea
and maybe it's something that we can

talk about too, is the idea of like
putting something together for trainers,

for people who are working in this.

Because look, I'm not saying that
people can't be grind, you know, it,

you know, when you see, especially if
you identify with the horse's pain and

suffering, and then you see people show
up with the same ignorance, the same

ignorance, the same ignorance, it's
easy to lose your compassion for the

person and connect with the feeling of
that building on itself, instead of.

Connecting with the idea that how great
more and more people who believed this way

are coming to learn things differently.

How great is that?

As opposed to I can't believe
another, you know, like there's

and that's just one example.

Like, it really it's a lot of
the way we're viewing things

that creates our own suffering.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's
a reframing that we have to

go through, but you know, it.

One can't do that alone.

And one needs, you know, one would
have had the shaman, one would have had

vision quest, one would have had, you
know, those night, those vigils alone

on the mountain, that sort of thing.

But we don't anymore.

So unless we, unless we deliberately
stick that in some way and create it.

Yeah.

So absolutely.

Well, I think we should
put something together for.

our fellow professionals in the field
in a sort of a not we're here to teach

you stuff more like a let's explore.

How we might want to deepen our practices

Okay, brilliant.

I

Christine Dickson: love that.

Yeah

Rupert Isaacson: to be continued then

Christine Dickson: to be continued.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you christine

Christine Dickson: Thank you so
much for inviting me on here.

I could talk to you for 10
hours and maybe take a nap and

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I think, I
think, I'm sure, I'm sure, you know,

I think most of the listeners would
love to hear more from you too.

There's, there's a lot more
here to explore and unpack.

So, let's maybe think about a round two.

Until then, I'm grateful.

And we see you next time.

Christine Dickson: Thank you so much.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

Christine Dickson: Thanks everybody.

Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

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